A War With No Exit Strategy?

Summary

Amanpour Podcast Summary Episode: A War With No Exit Strategy?
Host: Christiane Amanpour, CNN Podcasts
Date: April 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode grapples with the mounting crisis unleashed by the U.S.-Israel war against Iran, its far-reaching consequences for global security, and the absence of any clear exit strategy from the conflict. Christiane Amanpour scrutinizes the decisions and rhetoric driving U.S. policy, the shifting attitudes among Iranian people and the diaspora, and the destabilizing impact on neighboring regions—particularly the war in Ukraine and crisis in Cuba. Conversations with high-profile guests—retired Admiral John Kirby, Ukraine’s former Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, longtime Iran adviser Gary Sick, and reporting from Cuba—underscore hopelessness, geopolitical paralysis, and troubling echoes from history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s War Speech and the Lack of an Exit Strategy

Segment: [02:07]–[09:32]

• Summary: Christiane Amanpour and Admiral John Kirby dissect President Trump’s recent address, in which he asserts the need to “finish the job” in Iran yet fails to articulate a tangible endgame.
• Kirby’s Disappointment in Leadership:
  • “Regrettably, we didn’t hear [a plan] in the remarks. The other thing I didn’t hear was any mention at all of the Iranian people...what they’re going through.” — John Kirby [03:35]
• Winning ‘Hearts and Minds’:
  • Diaspora and domestic sentiment are turning against the U.S., emboldening the Iranian regime.
  • "This is a regime they hate, but now they're beginning to hate the United States even more…" — John Kirby [04:39]
• Fragmented Coalition and Decision-Making:
  • Israel, Iran, and U.S. all have a ‘vote’ in how and when the war ends; the U.S. alone cannot dictate outcomes.
• No Real Negotiations:
  • Communication with Iran’s official government is futile; “real power” lies with the IRGC and Supreme Leader. [05:39]
• Military vs. Political Goals:
  • Physical degradation of Iranian capacity is possible, but ending Iran’s role in regional terrorism and proxy warfare “can’t be done just through military means.” [07:03]

2. Global Ripple Effects: Ukraine and Depleting Western Resolve

Segment: [09:32]–[17:11]

• Summary: Dmytro Kuleba voices grave concerns over the world’s distraction by the Iran conflict, which drains attention, resources, and weaponry from Ukraine’s existential fight against Russia.
• Ukraine’s Frustrations:
  • Kuleba doubts meaningful progress toward peace; Russia is disincentivized to negotiate, and U.S. strategy is faltering.
  • “Russia has zero incentive to make a peace now...Ukraine’s tweets will be falling on deaf ears.” — Dmytro Kuleba [12:37]
• NATO's Fragility:
  • Trump’s hostility toward NATO could embolden Russia and further isolate Ukraine if Europe must defend itself.
• European Response Insufficient:
  • Europe is “doing a lot, but as long as the war grinds on, they will never be enough...History doesn’t judge us by the effort, it judges us by the outcome.” — Kuleba [15:19]
• Call for European Arms Autonomy:
  • Kuleba urges Europe to “make weapons and begin to believe that if the war comes, it will have to fight without the United States.” [16:28]
• No Hope in China:
  • Even as Ukraine and others eye China as a potential mediator, Kuleba is skeptical that Beijing has any incentive to intervene in Ukraine under current conditions. [16:52]

3. Cuba's Economic Collapse Amid U.S. Blockade

Segment: [17:11]–[22:49]

• Summary: Patrick Ottman reports from Havana on the catastrophic impact of Trump’s oil blockade, only temporarily eased by the arrival of a Russian tanker.
• Fidel Castro’s Grandson as a Social Commentator:
  • Sandro Castro, an influencer, walks a line between trolling the regime and criticizing U.S. policy, symbolizing a generational shift—even within the Castro family.
• Humanitarian Crisis:
  • Energy, medicine, and food shortages plague Cuba; the crisis has grown so dire that even members of the Castro family face blackouts and deprivation.
• Openness to Economic Reform:
  • Sandro Castro supports economic opening with the U.S. but objects to threats undermining sovereignty.
• Notable Moment:
  • “His famous last name...doesn’t come with any special treatment in a Cuba on the edge of economic collapse—even for a Castro.” — Patrick Ottman [18:37]

4. Lessons from History: The U.S., Iran, and the Dangers of Hubris

Segment: [22:49]–[31:09]

• Summary: Gary Sick—scholar, former White House Iran aide—reflects on historic U.S. missteps, the perils of impulsive decision-making, and the erosion of norms.
• Trump as a “Dealmaker, Not a Strategist”:
  • “People who know a lot about Iran would never have done what he has just done. It was clearly done on a whim, without a lot of thinking…” — Gary Sick [25:28]
• Iranians (and Americans) Distrust U.S. Messaging:
  • "I think the Iranians don't trust a single thing that they hear from him or the Americans." — Gary Sick [26:33]
• Intelligence Failures Revisited:
  • U.S. underestimated revolutionary sentiment in 1979, relying blindly on the Shah’s self-serving assurances.
  • “This was one of the greatest intelligence failures in American history.” — Gary Sick [27:53]
• Laws of War Broken:
  • Trump, unlike Carter, “had no imminent threat, no excuse” to go to war; current conduct shreds the laws of war and proportionality.
  • “You don’t act disproportionately...we’re breaking those laws every day.” — Gary Sick [29:38]
• Unprecedented U.S. Isolation:
  • “I would never have believed that we would find ourselves...as the rogue nation in the world.” — Gary Sick [30:48]

5. The Ongoing Struggle for Reform Inside Iran

Segment: [31:09]–[37:18]

• Summary: Amanpour draws on her personal experience reporting inside Iran and speaking to reformers, students, and hardliners over decades.
• Regime Response:
  • Current war bolsters Iranian hardliners, enabling crackdowns and judicial repression.
• Iranians’ Endurance and Aspirations:
  • Despite setbacks, the “reform movement” has deep roots—“How many people can the conservatives throw in jail? They can’t jail the whole population of Iran.” — Iranian Reform Supporter [01:57 & 35:00]
• Obstacles to Change:
  • Hardliners insist reforms are economic, not political; Amanpour pushes back, citing broad desire for freedom.
• Warning:
  • “Everybody we talk to says they want freedom and if they don't get their freedom, there's going to be an explosion in Iran.” — Christiane Amanpour [36:50]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• John Kirby on shifting Iranian views:
  “Now they're beginning to hate the United States even more. And I think that that just stiffens the spine of the regime...may give them the resolve to continue.” [04:39]

• Dmytro Kuleba on long war fatigue:
  “History is ruthless. It doesn’t judge us by the effort, it judges us by the outcome.” [15:19]

• Gary Sick, on knowledge vs. impulsive policy:
  “People who know a lot about Iran would never have done what he has just done.” [25:28]
  “Trump had no such excuse. You don’t act disproportionately...and we’re breaking those laws every day.” [29:38]

• Iranian reformer, on population’s resolve:
  “They can’t jail the whole population of Iran.” [35:00]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:07–09:32] — Trump’s address, U.S. strategy in Iran, and coalition dynamics (Amanpour with John Kirby)
• [09:32–17:11] — Impact on Ukraine and Russia’s war, Europe’s response (Amanpour with Dmytro Kuleba)
• [17:11–22:49] — Humanitarian crisis in Cuba and generational shifts (Patrick Ottman with Sandro Castro)
• [22:49–31:09] — Lessons from the Iranian revolution and law of war (Amanpour with Gary Sick)
• [31:09–37:18] — Amanpour’s reports from inside Iran, generational change, and obstacles to reform

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Conclusion:

The episode delivers a sobering account of a global order rattled by short-termism, fractured alliances, and war-without-end. As old adversaries harden, the show underscores lessons from history, the resilience of those demanding basic freedoms, and the deepening danger of U.S. policy pursued without foresight.

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For those who haven’t listened, this episode offers crucial context on the new U.S.-Iran war, fading hope for democracy and reform, and the dire toll of global distraction.

Transcript

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Amanpur Hour. Here's where we're headed this week at a critical juncture for Iran and beyond. Former White House and national security spokesman Admiral John Kirby dissects the president's latest address. And this war of choice is diverting attention and potentially even weapons from Ukraine's war of survival. Former Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba joins me from Kyiv.

[Dmytro Kuleba]

Russia has zero incentive to make a peace now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Then, an exclusive with Fidel Castro's influencer grandson as Trump's oil blockade pushes Cuba further into a humanitarian catastrophe. Patrick Opman reports. Plus, lessons from history, what it was like being in the White House during the Iranian revolution. Former Iran adviser to the National Security Council, Gary Sick reflects on the difference between the hostage crisis then and now.

[Gary Sick]

There was no imminent threat. Jimmy Carter had an imminent threat. If he had wanted to go to war with Iran, he had an excuse. He had a reason to do it. Trump had no such excuse.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Plus, from my archives and Iran's revolutionary journey, from young people hopeful for change to hardliners refusing to back down.

[Iranian Reform Supporter]

How many people can the conservatives throw in jail? They can't jail the whole population of Iran.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In New York this week. Unanswered questions, conflicting statements, and a vow to finish the job with still not no spoken exit strategy. That's what President Trump delivered in his first address to the nation since the war began five weeks ago. We now know in his own words, the president believed the war would be over in three days. In Iran, civilians pay the highest price. With nearly 2,000 people killed in US and Israeli strikes, Trump's speech did nothing to calm markets. In fact the opposite. And oil prices spiked again. Which with no military plan or negotiations with Iran to resolve the crisis over the Strait of Hormuz, what happens next? Trump's repeated threat to bomb Iran back to the Stone Ages where they belong. This is not only Vietnam War language, but deeply insulting to Iranians proud of their 2,500year history. Retired Admiral John Kirby has held top communications roles at the Pentagon, National Security Council and at the White House, he. He shares his serious concerns about this war and the future. John Kirby, welcome back to our program.

[John Kirby]

Thank you. Good to be with you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Christiane, when you listened to Donald Trump, were you actually expecting him to come up with some kind of a more refined plan, delivering, you know, concrete endgame and actually what the end would look like instead of just finish the job?

[John Kirby]

That's what I was hoping I would hear when I heard that hethe announcement that he was gonna give a set of remarks here, you know, more than a month in to this conflict. I. That's great. You know, you should talk to the American people and to people around the world and explain what we're doing, why we're doing it, and what we're actually trying to achieve. And regrettably, we didn't hear that in their remarks. The other thing I didn't hear was any mention at all of the Iranian people. And that. That kind of surprised me because if you remember when this whole thing started, you know, his message was, hey, we're going to topple the regime, and it's up to you. This is your moment to take it and to run your own country. But no mention at all of the Iranian people, what they're going through and any idea of what post conflict governance can or should look like.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The emotions of the diaspora and other Iranians are shifting because at first they thought Trump was coming to save them, and now they're not. Now, what does that mean for the U.S. okay, we know what it means for the Iranian people, but what does essentially not winning hearts and minds mean for the United States?

[John Kirby]

It means that this war is not going to end anytime soon. I mean, now you had the Iranian people behind you when the bombs first started falling, and now we're losing that. Not only the diaspora, but certainly there in Iran proper, which means that the regime will get new life and will get perhaps support from the public that they didn't have before. This is a regime they hate, but now they're beginning to hate the United States even more. And I think that that just stiffens the spine of the regime, a very radical regime still, and may give them the resolve to continue, continue to fight. One of the things that we need to remember here, Christiane, is that Donald Trump and the United States doesn't get to determine on its own when this war ends. We can certainly determine when we stop military operations, but the Israelis get a vote, and there's no indication that they're willing to stop. And the Iranians absolutely get a vote on how much more fighting they're willing to do.

[Christiane Amanpour]

There doesn't seem to be any negotiations going on. Can you tell whether there's anything happening? There doesn't seem to be.

[John Kirby]

I mean, communicating and dealing with the government, the official government of Iran, is not the same as dealing with the IRGC and the Supreme Leader and his offices. You know, the elected leadership of Iran don't actually determine the course of Iran, certainly in domestic or foreign affairs, in order to make any ground. And you have to speak with somebody that has authority and accountability, and that's going to be the IRGC and, and the new supreme Leader.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so let us talk about what goals look like and were enunciated that seem to have been pushed off. How did you read just leaving the highly enriched uranium to take care of itself?

[John Kirby]

I saw that very much the same way that it was an attempt by the president to pull back a little bit from the threats of actually going after it with ground forces. Now, could that be a feint? And he was, you know, sowing some disinformation to mask his intentions, perhaps. But the way I took it was it was him walking a little bit back from the idea of putting ground forces to go get it and reasserting that, as the Israelis have, that it is buried so deep that it would be very, very difficult for the Iranians to recover it anyway. And the president's not wrong.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What is he saying, do you think, as a military person yourself, needs to happen to make sure that they finish the job, as they keep saying?

[John Kirby]

Well, it depends on what you mean by finish the job, right? I mean, if your goal is to eliminate every offensive capability that Iran has, every missile, every drone, every ship and every boat, I mean, that's a tall order. And I don't think even the US Military would say that that's possible. But if your job is to degrade their capabilities so that they no longer pose a threat to our interest in the region and our allies and partners, that is an achievable goal. And the US Military and the Israeli military have been working very hard at doing that. They have had immense military success, there's no doubt about. But the one goal, the goal that I think is much more difficult, and this gets back to your issue about hearts and minds, is, you know, eliminating Iran's ability to export terrorism in the region. As you know, they work through proxies, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and these militias in Iraq and Syria that are not in Iran proper. They still have a measure of control and influence over those groups and eliminating that as a threat. The terrorism threat is a much more difficult thing and it can't be done just through military means alone. Iran is certainly not the threat to the region and the world that it used to be. Based on all the bombing and the strikes, there's no doubt about that. The regime's military capabilities have been severely degraded and that's a good thing for the region and for the world. I also believe that their nuclear capabilities and their ambitions have certainly been severely curtailed, starting with the strikes back in June. There's no doubt about that. But you can't bomb away knowledge and you can't necessarily bomb away intention.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how do you see the relationship between the Gulf Arab states, which are American allies, have American bases and Iran going forward, given what's been happening and also the relationship of America with those Gulf states, would they keep having American bases there, do you think?

[John Kirby]

All of this depends on what's left. When it's all said and done and if the regime is left in power, if that's the way this ends, then we are definitely going to have to rethink our footprint in the Middle east and perhaps even our arrangements and agreements with our allies and partners in the Gulf in terms of what sort of facilities the US occupies and to what extent and at what scale. You know, one of the things that they did before they launched the strikes was disperse American military power around the region. It's going to be interesting to see when this is over. Does that disbursement stay in place or do we re aggregate where we once were? I don't see if the regime is in power. I don't see how we do that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I mean, that is truly reshaping the Middle east then in a way that presumably neither Israel nor the United States intended. Thank you very much for your very unique perspective. Coming up, the United States diverts its attention and weapons away from Ukraine while also helping fill Russia's war chest. Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba joins me on their four year fight for survival. What does Europe need to do to fill this gap?

[Dmytro Kuleba]

Make weapons and begin to believe that if the war comes, it will have to fight without the United States.

[Michael Ian Black]

Tab I Got News for your Ears the podcast. I am your host Michael Ian Black. Big episode of have I Got News for your Ears. Fan favorite Anthony Aktaminik. We're going to be talking about. What are we going to be talking about? The war, obviously. A little bit of Cuba and also a little bit of Cuba Gooding Jr. Not as much. Also the ballroom, the libery. Tony's going to break out as Robert De Niro, which is surprising. Have I got news for your ears. Check us out on Apple, Amazon Music, wherever you get your podcast. Even better, you can watch the Vodcast on Spotify.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back. With the world's attention focused on the war against Iran, Russia's war against Ukraine grinds on. This week, Ukraine Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy met virtually with US and European officials to discuss the stalled peace talks. But on the ground, there is more escalation than negotiation. And as Russia continues to devastate Ukrainian cities and energy infrastructure, fears mount that the weapons Ukraine badly needs are being diverted to the Middle East. To discuss all of this, I spoke to the former Foreign Minister Dmytro Culeba, who join me from Kyiv. Let me ask you about the real sort of what Ukraine really wants. And you know this more than anything. A, not to be forced to give up territory that it hasn't lost, and B, proper security guarantees. So you might have seen, President Zelensky has just tweeted after a virtual conversation with the two American negotiators, Witkoff and Kushner, along with Senator Lindsey Graham and in fact, Senator Rather, Secretary General of NATO, Mark Rutter standing by. Zelensky says, I'm grateful to everybody for their work in finding the right decisions. And Ukraine appreciates every effort America is making to forge a dignified peace. We agreed that our teams will remain in close contact and they say they are trying to strengthen the notion of the security guarantees document between Ukraine and the United States, which is the only way, he says, to pave a reliable end to this war. What do you know about the existing talk around security guarantees and whether you think it will be strengthened? On behalf of behalf of Ukraine, I

[Dmytro Kuleba]

regret to say it, but I'm afraid you will be quoting many more tweets of this kind in the coming weeks and months. President Zelensky is trying hard to keep everything together, to move towards peace, towards negotiated peace. The problem is that I think Russia has zero incentive to make a peace now, to make peace now. The United States are not doing anything to change their approach to peace, which is as they believe, if Ukraine gives the territory the rest of Donbas to Russia, Russia is going to stop. Ukraine has zero evidence that would make it believe in this, believe this, in this assumption. So it doesn't matter how many more conversations there will be in video conferences, as long as there are no driving forces for peace on the Russian side and for the Change of attitude on the American side. Ukraine will be, you know, Ukraine's tweets will be falling on deaf ears.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Tell me something. Do you worry when you read President Trump's posts, like, right now, he's, as you know, very angry with NATO allies, believing that they should join the war of choice that he started in order to open the Strait of Hormuz. And he called NATO a paper tiger, threatened to consider pulling out. Given that you want Trump to put pressure on Putin, how does Trump's perpetual attacks and belittling of NATO affect Ukraine and affect the balance of power in this war? In your war, the biggest risk Ukraine

[Dmytro Kuleba]

is facing in relation to Trump's mood towards NATO is that if President Putin decides to grab the opportunity and attack a NATO ally in Europe, Europe will be so focused on pulling itself together in order to repel that attack that Ukraine will not be able to receive substantial amounts, volumes of weapons from our European partners. So we are experiencing problems with the United States.

[Iranian Reform Supporter]

Now.

[Dmytro Kuleba]

Our second largest source of weapons is Europe, and if that one is gone as well, because they will have to keep to focus on their own war, we will be in trouble.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Are you getting enough help from the eu, given that the US Is occupied elsewhere, including the reports that they are diverting weapons, maybe even eventually, that being a long term diversion because of needing to replenish their own cupboards of ammunition and weapons.

[Dmytro Kuleba]

EU is doing a lot, but as long as the war grins on, they will never be enough. History is ruthless. It doesn't judge us by the effort, it judges us by the outcome. And the outcome is something that we're discussing right now. It's the fourth year of the war, the year of destruction and atrocities. There is a long way for Europe to go, I think. I do believe they're trying their best, but there are some issues they have to address immediately if they really want to build up their deterrence muscle and survive without, without president, without the backing of the United States.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, I'm going to ask you, what kind of muscle do they need to bring to the table? Because this is what the President actually said to this issue. Let's take a listen.

[Donald Trump (voice clip)]

We do that all the time. You know, we have tremendous amounts of ammunition. We have them in other countries, like in Germany and all over Europe. We have, you know, we're packed and we take, sometimes we take from one and we use for another.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I mean, he sort of makes it sound as if it's, you know, not, not a big deal. But clearly Europe is worried. You're worried. What does Europe need to do to

[Dmytro Kuleba]

fill this gap, make weapons and begin to believe that if the war comes, it will have to fight without the United States?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so you're sounding probably more pessimistic than I've heard you in a long time. And I want to know, therefore, do you like a lot of people are now looking to China to help, including President Zelensky. Is that a goer, do you think?

[Dmytro Kuleba]

I do strongly believe that Ukraine has to engage with China. And it is no secret that President Trump, for example, also believes that China has to be on board when it comes to making peace in Ukraine. But I don't see why China would be interested in that effort under these circumstances.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Dimitro Culeiba, thank you for being with us and we'll check in with you again. Thank you so much. Important to remember that this week marks a gruesome anniversary. Four years since Russia's slaughter, rape and plunder of Bucha, the village near Kyiv. Coming up, a CNN exclusive with Fidel Castro's influencer grandson Wisandro. Castro is for making a deal with the US despite trolling President Trump online. That story after the break. Welcome back. Energy blackouts, medicine shortages, surging food prices and preventable deaths. Just a few of the issues plaguing Cuba as it grapples with an energy crisis since Trump cut it off from its Venezuelan lifeline. But this week, the US did allow a Russian flagged oil tanker to break its own blockade, the first through in three months. The Trump administration is trying to squeeze Cuba in order to acquire its next scalp, which would be the toppling of the communist regime there. But Fidel Castro's influencer grandson has also been trolling Trump online and he explained his strategy to CNN's Patrick Ottman.

[Patrick Ottman]

In this social media satire video, Donald Trump arrives in Cuba to buy the island. While this Trump is a fake, he's dealing with a real member of the Castro family, Fidel Castro's grandson, Sandro Castro, an influencer and nightclub impresario who says he has no interest in politics, the very public face of an otherwise still mysterious family that has held power in Cuba for nearly seven decades. At an interview in his apartment in Havana, Sandro Castro says he is a sign of the changing times on the communist run island. And what would your grandfather Fidel Castro say? That you're more capitalist than communist. When we arrive for the interview, the neighborhood Castro lives in is in a blackout, a near constant condition these days with the US Oil blockade and power plants breaking down. Sandro Castro's apartment is lit by an electric generator. But from his balcony, the surrounding houses are in near total darkness. He shows me his one bedroom bachelor pad, how he lacks the wall, how his fridge is nearly empty except for the Cuban beer he's always drinking. I point out that the appliance is a foreign brand that most Cubans could never hope to afford. His famous last name, Sandro Castro, wants people to know doesn't come with any special treatment in a Cuba on the edge of economic collapse, Even for a Castro. But being a Castro must help you. Cuba faces unprecedented US Pressure to open politically and economically. US Secretary of State Marco Rubio, a Cuban American, has been reaching out to Cuban officials, including members of the Castro family. In one of his videos, Sandro Castro pretends to receive a call from Rubio, who he then hangs up on. Rubio has said Cuba needs new leadership and that could include Cuban President Miguel Diaz Canel stepping down. Despite Fidel and Raul Castro's support for Diaz Canel over many years, Sandro Castro says he is no fan. Do you think President Diaz Canelo is

[Gary Sick]

doing a good job?

[Patrick Ottman]

Cuba's leaders reject attempts to blame them for the crisis. And Sandro Castro says officials have questioned him about his often surreal and critical postings as well. Cuban exiles regularly attack him online. He says, why do you think there are people, though, that hate the Castro family so much? Sandra Castro says he supports Trump's calls to open the economy, if not his threats against the island. At the end of his video, he takes the US Leader on a tour of Havana, Hope from at least one member of the Castro family that historic deal with the US and opening on the island are possible. Patrick Ottman, Sina Havana.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You still gotta wonder why Trump allowed Putin to bust his blockade and allow him into the hemisphere he claims for the United States. Coming up, he's been in the room with three American presidents and one Iranian shah. Former White House aide Gary Sick gives me his take on Trump's war.

[Gary Sick]

People who know a lot about Iran would never have done what he has just done.

[Eva Longoria]

This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. This has been a consumer based, beautiful discipline for thousands of years because it's relevant. It's the oldest lasting personality system. That's Jennifer Fried, astrologer to the stars. Chani Nicholas is a leading astrologer and a writer, and if you follow astrology at all, you've probably heard of her. Her app, called Chani, has more than a million total downloads. She was Oprah's resident astrologer for a while and did A public reading for Lizzo. When we are in these moments of great change and great divide and chaos, astrology usually resurges. Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.

[Chani Nicholas]

The relationship between the FBI director and the president has always been complicated. Unravel the complex dynamic in the CNN original series, the FBI Power and Paranoia. Now streaming on the CNN app.

[Christiane Amanpour]

My next guest has seen up close the transformation of Iran and how it got terrible relationship with the United States today. Gary Sick was the principal White House aide for Iran during the late 1970s, before, during and after the Islamic Revolution. He served in the US National Security Council under three American presidents, Ford, Carter and Reagan, witnessing and advising on major foreign policy decisions. He joined me here in New York to share his warnings from history and where he sees all this heading. He's 91 years old now, but still keen to give us those vital lessons for today. Gary Sick, welcome back to our program.

[Gary Sick]

I'm delighted to be here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So you have served every president practically in a specific era forward, Carter, Reagan, and particularly on this issue of Iran. What would you be telling this current president about how to deal with this thorny subject which has bedeviled every administration for the last nearly 50 years?

[Gary Sick]

Well, I think in the first place, he wouldn't hire me. He doesn't. He's not looking for expertise. And that's one of the real problems, is that people who know a lot about Iran would never have done what he has just done. And I mean, it was clearly done on a whim, without a lot of thinking, without a tremendous amount of preparation. And we're seeing the consequences. I think that Trump really, he plays a tactical game. He's got problems and he deals with them impulsively, one after another. And if something gives him a tactical advantage, he's a deal maker. He's not a history maker.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me ask you about Trump as dealmaker, transactional, tactical kind of guy and not a strategist. All the things that he's been saying which appear often to be contradictory. What do you think that public messaging says to Americans and most importantly to the Iranians at this crucial time?

[Gary Sick]

I think the Iranians don't trust a single thing that they hear from him or the Americans. I mean, I think Iran's relationship with the United States, I mean, we've been disappointed, they've disappointed us, they've done things that we didn't want them to do and took us by surprise. And we've done the same kind of thing. And I would say Both sides look at this and think the other side is completely untrustworthy and unworthy of even serious attention.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let's get back to the history. Now. You served Carter, Reagan, Ford on this particular issue, right?

[Gary Sick]

Correct.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

The revolution.

[Christiane Amanpour]

President Carter, who you served, went to Iran, famously, on the Christmas eve New Year's Eve, 77 into 78 state visit in Tehran, and declared the Shah was the guarantor of an island of stability in the Middle East. Those were his words. And eight days later, the revolution started bubbling. You guys, you're an intelligence official, clearly got it wrong. The cables that were going back and forth from the embassy in Iran to Washington were like, no, no, there's no sign of revolution on the horizon. How badly did you all disservice your government?

[Gary Sick]

I've spent now 40 more years looking at that and thinking about it and considering what really went on. And I would say unequivocally that this was one of the greatest intelligence failures in American history. You've got to start with Kissinger Nixon, who came to Iran and talked to the Shah just before all of this started. The Shah told them, I will be happy to act as your representative in the Gulf and take care of your interests, but don't go looking over my shoulder. If you want to know what's going on in Iran, ask us, ask me and I'll tell you. And of course, he didn't know what was going on in Iran part of the time, but more than that, he wouldn't tell us if it was really a crucial issue.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Did you meet the Shah?

[Gary Sick]

I met him.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What impression did you have of him? Why do you think he said no?

[Gary Sick]

When he was operating according to a script, he was very reliable and really quite good. When he departed from the script, he was really uncomfortable. He didn't know what he was doing, and he didn't trust his own instincts at all.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Trump's apparent pivot to actually war and military intervention, whether it's in Venezuela, whether it might be in Cuba, whether it's in a big way now in Iran. How does that sit with you? Because there's been no legal effort to get consensus around going to war. War seems to be now the default action, or some kind of military intervention seems to be a default action for the United States.

[Gary Sick]

I think with everything we do, we are undercutting the laws of war and the. Basically, over the past several centuries, we've gradually been accumulating and growing laws of war about how you behave in a war, and it doesn't keep us from going to war. But it does mean that you only do it under certain circumstances when there's an imminent threat. There was no imminent threat. Jimmy Carter had an imminent threat. If he had wanted to go to war with Iran, he had an excuse. He had a reason to do it. Trump had no such excuse. You don't act disproportionately. So if you get hit and two of your people get killed and you wipe out a village, that's not proportional and it's against the laws of war, and there's a whole series of things, and we're breaking those laws every day.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're 91 years old. You've had a lifetime of public service. Did you ever think that you would see your country in this position?

[Gary Sick]

No, I would have. No, I'm not. I've been around enough to know that you can't predict the future and that it surprises you, but I would never have believed that we would find ourselves in the position that we're in as the rogue nation in the world.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Gary Sick, thank you so much for your unique perspective.

[Gary Sick]

Thank you. Great to see you again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A troubling indictment indeed. And coming up, more lessons from history, a look into my archive at the long struggle for freedom and reform and democracy in Iran, and my own experience living through the revolution there.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

It was at this precise moment in this room 21 years ago, that I developed the first inklings of political awareness. And this is where my life changed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back. The irony of this war is that instead of toppling the regime, it so far is empowering the hardliners in Iran who are cracking down, using a familiar playbook, deploying security forces to the streets, and threatening mass arrests and executions. It's just the latest chapter in the long fight over what change could look like in Iran. Back in 2000, at the High point of Iran's reform phase, I covered the hopes and dreams of the young people there who insisted on democratic and and economic freedoms back then. Like today, there remains an iron core of revolutionary religious loyalists. And I spoke to some of them, too.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

Everywhere I go in Tehran, I'm an object of curiosity for these young people. They're eager to ask questions and to tell me all about their freedom fight. And I am stunned by the symmetry. Just a generation ago, there was another youth movement, the one that sparked a revolution, forcing the Shah of Iran out and bringing the Ayatollah Khomeini.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

In.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

A generation after the revolution, these students are telling me that they want everything. Real democracy, the right to have fun, and even friendly relations with the United States.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

For me, the young people's struggle is especially personal because I was their age when the revolution happened. But back in 1979, I was living a carefree life, taking all the personal freedoms for granted.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When I was a girl growing up

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

in Tehran, this was my house.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

The Revolutionary Courts of Iran took custody of our house after my family left the country in 1980. Only recently we were able to reclaim it.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

This used to be our living room. This room, for me, is kind of significant because it was here 21 years ago that my father was sitting in that corner, and I was standing here, and all of a sudden he said, you know, life as we used to know it is going to come to an end because the revolution is going to happen, and it's just going to be completely different. And it was at this precise moment in this room, 21 years ago, that I developed the first inklings of political awareness. And this is where my life changed. Somebody in the west looking at you with a chador on your face, obviously very religious. They might be surprised to hear what you're saying about the freedoms and the reforms that you want.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Should they be surprised?

[Iranian Reform Supporter]

No, they shouldn't be surprised. The fact that I wear a hijab or some people wear a hijab should not imply that we do not want freedom, that we want restrictions.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

What happens if you don't get what you want?

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Hari. Katie.

[Iranian Reform Supporter]

The Reformation, the reform movement of President Khatami, has started, and it cannot go back. How many people can the conservatives throw in jail? They can't jail the whole population of Iran, because all over the country, the reforms of Mr. Khatami have taken hold.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

But those reforms are running up against a wall of resistance from men like Movahedi Savoji, a member of Parliament and one of the hardest of all the hardliners.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

I've been talking to many, many Iranians since I've been here. I've talked to religious people. I've talked to more secular people. I've talked to young people, to old people, village people, city people. They say they want freedom of expression, freedom of political expression. They want political reform, and they say they've had enough of hardline conservatives like yourself.

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

Our people have been free since the revolution. Of course, I believe that Ms. Amanpour has spoken to a limited number of people.

[John Kirby]

Sir.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

Every time I ask a hardliner, a conservative, this same question, they tell me that I'm asking and talking to the wrong people. 80% of the people of Iran voted twice in presidential elections and in municipal elections for reform and for freedom. So are you saying that 80% of the people of Iran don't know what they're talking about?

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

They voted for Khatami because they hoped he could solve the economic problems. In other words, they didn't vote for Khatami so that he would bring political changes.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

To me, you sound slightly out of touch. Everybody we talk to says they want freedom and if they don't get their

[Christiane Amanpour]

freedom, there's going to be an explosion in Iran.

[Christiane Amanpour (archive footage)]

There's too much pressure building. Do you accept that

[Hardliner Iranian Official]

even if the hardliners appear to be in deep denial, they face a generation that won't be denied.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What I said back then stands today. When we come back, two time Academy Award winning actor Adrien Brody tells me about the thrill of his Broadway debut. And finally, two time Oscar winner Adrien Brody is known for his his gritty performances in films like the Brutalist and the Pianist. But now for the first time, he's treading the boards on Broadway in the Fear of Thirteen, written by Lindsey Ferrantino. It's an extraordinary true story in which Brody plays Nick Yaris, an inmate who spent more than two decades on death row for a crime he didn't commit and who was later proven innocent. It is devastating, sometimes darkly funny and yet also manages to be oddly life affirming. I spoke to Brody and Ferrentino about the project.

[Adrien Brody]

For me, as an artist or in an artistic capacity to be able to explore and help open the conversation and consider these grave issues and ailments within our society are very important and meaningful. Lindsay wrote an incredible play, incredible work. It is incredible and the words were so moving that they pulled me out of my own apprehension of doing theater for many years.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The play is on Broadway right now and you can tune into this show next week for more of that conversation. And that is all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online and as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Cristiana Manpour in New York. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.

[Eva Longoria]

I'm Eva Longoria and I'm setting out to really experience France, to savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history.

[Chani Nicholas]

Searching For France premieres April 12th on CNN and next day on the CN.