Journalism Under Attack

Summary

Amanpour Podcast Summary

Episode: Journalism Under Attack
Date: July 31, 2026
Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour centers on the escalating threats to journalism, both from government and corporate forces. Host Christiane Amanpour interviews independent journalist Amy Goodman and filmmaker Tia Lisson, whose new documentary "Steal This Story, Please" examines the fight for independent media. The episode also features a conversation with historian Sarah Lewis and Reverend Wheeler Parker Jr. about a new photography exhibition imagining the life Emmett Till could have lived, as well as an in-depth discussion with journalist Paulina Borsuk about the roots and impacts of Silicon Valley's prevailing ideology.

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Segment 1: The Fight for Independent Journalism

[00:04-19:12]

Key Discussion Points

• Mounting Dangers for Journalism:

  • Amanpour sets the scene by addressing unprecedented pressures on journalism, including attacks from political leaders and corporate consolidation.
  • Recent political interventions (like President Trump’s attacks on CNN and The New York Times, threats to pull broadcast licenses, and media mergers) are called out as existential threats.

• Amy Goodman's Model of Independent Journalism:

  • Goodman’s career has been built on challenging the powerful, reporting the underreported, and rejecting corporate and government funding.
  • Democracy Now! is highlighted as a model for audience-funded, truly independent media.

• Documentary "Steal This Story, Please":

  • Tia Lisson notes the urgency of telling this story, given the current administration’s efforts to discredit and suppress independent press.
  • The film begins with Goodman tenaciously questioning President Trump’s climate advisor—who evades and accuses Goodman of harassment.

    “Sir, a reporter asking you a question is not harassment. It’s our job.” – Amy Goodman [09:01]

• Why Independence Matters:

  • Goodman says their motto is to "go to where the silence is," reporting on stories ignored by mainstream media (e.g., Standing Rock protests, climate change, immigrant crackdowns).
  • Their intent is for their journalism to be shared widely:

    “To have an exclusive is a failure. We want it to be stolen by everyone.” – Amy Goodman [05:06]

• Corporate and Political Threats:

  • Lisson discusses media consolidation since the 1996 Telecommunications Act, putting too much power in too few hands [12:14].
  • Goodman contrasts the U.S. constitutional protection of journalism with the lived reality, arguing, “The silenced majority silenced by the corporate media… Reporters know no borders.” [10:33]

• Notable Quote:

  “Independent media is the oxygen of a democracy.” – Amy Goodman [02:50]

• A Journalistic Ethic:

  • Goodman’s approach is to give voice to the ‘silenced majority’ and to refuse to function as power’s PR agent.

    “Not to unbended knee to those in power, but ask the questions that so many people have.” – Amy Goodman [16:55]

• Memorable Anecdote – The Clinton Call:

  • Goodman describes a 2000 phone-in with President Clinton where she broke format to ask tough questions about corporate influence, the Iraq war, and U.S. policy, provoking annoyance but meaningful engagement:

    “He could hang up if he wants to, but that’s our job.” – Amy Goodman [16:55]

• Family Roots in Questioning:

  • Goodman attributes her commitment to free inquiry to a long family tradition rooted in Jewish education.

    “We debated all issues… The message was never again for anyone anywhere.” – Amy Goodman [17:46]

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Segment 2: If Emmett Till Lived – History Reimagined

[19:32-37:04]

Key Discussion Points

• Legacy of Emmett Till:

  • Amanpour introduces the exhibition “What If Emmett Till Lived,” which uses photographs to envision the future denied to the 14-year-old whose murder ignited the civil rights movement.

• Personal Reflections – Reverend Wheeler Parker Jr.:

  • Parker, Till’s cousin, recounts the terror and helplessness of the night Till was abducted, and stresses how his family and community were raised to face such dangers [22:13, 27:11].

    “He had no idea what was becoming of him… a very helpless, helpless feeling.” – Wheeler Parker Jr. [22:13]

• Urgency of Memory – Sarah Lewis:

  • Lewis discusses Mamie Till Mobley’s insistence on confronting the ugliness of American history and using art and imagination for justice.

    “What if Emmett Till lived? What you’re really asking is what would have been required in American society for him to have lived?” – Sarah Lewis [29:26]

• Memorable Moments:

  • Revisiting Mamie Till Mobley’s rationale for an open casket:

    “Let the people see what I’ve seen. I was just willing to bear it all.” [Mamie Till Mobley, archival, 26:00]

  • Parker’s affirmation:

    “We’d rather for it not to have happened. But he speaks louder in death, and he accomplishes more in death than he would if had lived.” – Wheeler Parker Jr. [33:24]

• Contemporary Relevance:

  • Amanpour highlights current attempts to rewrite and suppress U.S. history, noting President Trump’s directive to install warning signs by exhibits the administration labels as ‘inaccurate’ [34:11].
  • Parker underscores the importance of telling these stories, relating it to Holocaust remembrance:

    “You need to know the truth and the truth will make you free… Don’t let it make you hate. The hate destroys the hater.” – Wheeler Parker Jr. [35:09]

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Segment 3: The Roots and Dangers of Silicon Valley’s Culture

[38:27-54:03]
Interview by Michel Martin with journalist Paulina Borsuk

Key Discussion Points

• Early Warnings About Tech Culture:

  • Paulina Borsuk discusses her book "Cyber Selfish" (2000), which critiques the libertarian, anti-regulation, anti-government ideology of Silicon Valley—a mindset that has since become dominant and, she argues, destructive.

    “What was written about here has become the dominant ideology of Silicon Valley leaders…far worse than I could have imagined.” – Paulina Borsuk [41:54]

• Observations of Ideological Shift:

  • Explains the shift from a collaborative, government-supported tech culture to one shaped by Ayn Rand, market fundamentalism, and toxic ‘finance bro’ values post-Netscape IPO [45:50].

    “What poisoned the environment was Silicon Valley invaded by toxic Wall Street finance, bro culture. That to me was the beginning of when things really began to change.” – Paulina Borsuk [45:50]

• Lack of Self-Awareness in Tech:

  • Borsuk notes that many tech leaders are blind to how much they benefited from government support (e.g., research, infrastructure, GI Bill) while preaching libertarian self-reliance.

• From Subculture to Dominant Culture:

  • The tech elite’s self-referential bubble, sexism, and the “cult of the male founder” have become the industry norm [42:34, 47:51].

• Technology vs. Values:

  • Michel Martin probes whether the benefits of tech innovation can be separated from its underlying values.
  • Borsuk is skeptical: many so-called innovations are, in her view, shallow financial engineering rather than genuine tech progress (e.g., Uber, Airbnb) [48:43].

    “I don’t trust what AI would kick up… If I can’t trust what I’m getting back, I don’t even want to interrogate it.” – Paulina Borsuk [49:33]

• A Glimmer of Change:

  • Recent pushbacks (AI moratoriums, community action) suggest some shift against uncritical tech boosterism, but Borsuk questions whether it’s too late.

    “Sometimes amazing things can come from the ashes. But what I wonder what happens is when the water really starts running out…” – Paulina Borsuk [53:21]

• Underlying Message:

  • Participation in local government and critical engagement with tech’s power is vital for meaningful change.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Independent media is the oxygen of a democracy.”
  – Amy Goodman [02:50]
• “Sir, a reporter asking you a question is not harassment. It’s our job.”
  – Amy Goodman [09:01]
• “The silenced majority silenced by the corporate media… Reporters know no borders.”
  – Amy Goodman [10:33]
• “Let the people see what I’ve seen. I was just willing to bear it all.”
  – Mamie Till Mobley [26:00, archival audio]
• “He speaks louder in death, and he accomplishes more in death than he would if had lived.”
  – Wheeler Parker Jr. [33:24]
• “What poisoned the environment was Silicon Valley invaded by toxic Wall street finance, bro culture. That to me was the beginning of when things really began to change.”
  – Paulina Borsuk [45:50]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:04-11:43: Amanpour, Goodman, and Lisson on attacks on journalism and the need for independent media
• 11:43-18:35: On corporate media consolidation, political threats, and Democracy Now!’s philosophy
• 18:35-19:12: Goodman’s roots; her family tradition of questioning
• 19:32-37:04: Emmett Till segment—history, memory, and the exhibition imagining his life
• 38:27-54:03: Michel Martin and Paulina Borsuk on Silicon Valley’s ideological evolution and its consequences

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone throughout is urgent, reflective, and unflinching, marked by sober assessments of contemporary threats to independent thought—both from politics and industry. The guests, whether discussing the press, racial history, or technology, underline the imperative of critical inquiry, historical reckoning, and public engagement for the survival of democracy and justice.

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[Amy Goodman]

He accused me of harassing him and I said, sir, a reporter asking you a question is not harassment, it's our job.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Does journalism face its gravest danger yet? I speak to reporter Amy Goodman and filmmaker Tia Lesson about their new documentary exploring the fight for an independent press.

[Sarah Lewis]

Ben, when you ask the question, what if Emmett Till lived, what you're really asking is what would have been required in American society for him to have lived.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A powerful new exhibition imagines the life Emmett Till was denied. I speak to historian Sarah Lewis and the Reverend Wheeler Parker Jr. Also ahead.

[Paulina Borsuk]

So you had Silicon Valley invaded by toxic Wall street bro finance, bro culture. And that to me was the beginning of when things really began to change. And that is a very woman hospital world.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Long before Silicon Valley dominated our lives, Paulina Borsuff warned of its growing power. Michel Martin speaks to the journalist who saw today's tech titans coming. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The media industry today is facing more danger and disruption than ever as it confronts the twin pressures of corporate consolidation and a president's attacks. And now the future of one of the biggest proposed media mergers has been thrown into doubt. After Paramount agreed to delay its takeover of Warner Bros. Discovery, which is the parent company of cnn, until next summer amid a court challenge from from states across America. And after last weekend's ill tempered do over of the White House Correspondents Dinner, there is renewed debate about the relationship between the press and political power. Questions about who owns the news, who holds power to account and what independent journalism looks like feel more urgent than ever. For more than three decades, Amy Goodman has built her career asking questions that many others wouldn't, reporting from danger zones inside and outside America, challenging presidents and giving a voice to those often left out of the mainstream conversation. That's all on her show Democracy Now. A new documentary called Steal this Story, Please examines her life, her work and the growing struggle for independent journalism.

[Amy Goodman]

My first impressions of Amy. What did you say to those who say that you're a war criminal?

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

Man, she doesn't care what anybody thinks.

[Amy Goodman]

Don't push me. I'm a journalist. Independent media is the oxygen of a democracy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What do you mean by independence not

[Amy Goodman]

being sponsored by corporations?

[Michel Martin]

Amy's chaotically brilliant at the spy game

[Amy Goodman]

we began on nine radio stations.

[Christiane Amanpour]

If she believes something, she's gonna fight

[Michel Martin]

for it and get it out to the world.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Straight up journalism. It came from my Jewish education that you Ask Questions.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Amy and one of the film's co directors join me from New York to discuss this struggle. Amy Goodman, Tia Lisson, welcome to the program. It is an amazing film. It took me all the way back to what I, you know, really traditional journalism. And it's great to be reminded of what can be done by you. Fearless person, Amy Goodman. Let me just first ask Tia, what is it about the concept of democracy now that you decided would make a good film?

[Tia Lisson]

Yes. Well, thank you so much for having us on, Christiane. Amy created this incredible model of independent journalism. It does not take corporate money, no underwriting, no advertising. It doesn't take government funding. It is entirely financed by audience, its listeners and its viewers and, you know, nonprofit institutional givers. So what that means is that it is not controlled in any way, shape or form by the powers that be. And we see right now how important that is as the Trump administration uses so much political pressure to lay siege to news organizations and to journalists themselves. So it seemed to be the right time to tell this story about independent journalism, Amy Goodman's style.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And, of course, we're all very aware of this pressure coming from the government and from corporates who bend the knee, so to speak. So it's really refreshing to see this documentary and to talk to you, Amy, as well. So how does it feel to be on the other side of the camera, sort of the subject of this kind of film? And please tell me, what is the title? Steal this Story, please.

[Amy Goodman]

Well, you know, we've always said that I say to have an exclusive is a failure. We want it to be stolen by everyone. When we cover the standoff at Standing Rock, that's the Standing Rock Sioux taking on the Dakota Access Pipeline. This epic struggle back in 2016 at the time of the presidential race between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, at the time when rarely in the media were they even talking about the climate change. But thousands of indigenous people went to North Dakota here in the United States supporting the Standing Rock Sioux, and they stood off against this large energy corporation. We were among the only media there, and we captured on film the dogs that were being held by the security guards, biting the protesters, their mouth and nose dripping with blood. And we just posted online, within 24 hours, there were 14 million views. President Obama was in Laos at the time. And one of the people who participated in the democracy forum he held said, what about this? What's happening there? And he came back to the White House, saw the footage. It wasn't lost on the first African American president. What it meant to unleash dogs on protesters and to capture the image is so important to. And to share that and to hear the voices. You know, our motto is to go to where the silence is. And it's often not silent, it is raucous, it's rowdy. People are organizing, as you see all over the United States. Now, when it comes to the immigrant crackdown, it just doesn't hit the corporate media radar screen. That's where democracy now lives.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is extraordinary. And of course, when you talk about the dogs, and of course, I saw the images and then I was shocked that it hadn't been a subject of mass media attention. And the way you say now that of course it wasn't lost that imagery, that fact on the first African American president also. And, Tia, I am sure that this grabs you as well. We are right in the middle of literally one of the worst tipping points here in Europe anyway, of drought and fire and climate change. And I just wonder whether when you were starting to make this film, you sort of realized how existential some of this lack of reporting by the mass media has been.

[Tia Lisson]

Absolutely. I mean, we start the film with this chase scene. Amy Goodman in hot pursuit of President Trump's climate advisor at the climate conference in Poland. And this is a man who's sent there to represent the US Government's position at the UN Climate conference. And he couldn't run fast enough from Amy Goodman. And she's really just asking, you know, the basic questions that any, you know, good journalist will ask of a government entity. You know, why have you pulled out of the Paris climate accords? Why are you promoting coal and fossil fuels at this climate accord? And he wouldn't answer a single question. He wouldn't even give her his business card. That is how, you know, threatened this administration is by these hard questions and really how they can, you know, not face any accountability from the journalists.

[Amy Goodman]

You know, he accused me of harassing him, and I said, sir, a reporter asking you a question is not harassment. It's our job.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm going to play exactly the video that you're talking about.

[Amy Goodman]

Hi, I'm Amy Goodman from Democracy Now.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Can you tell I've got to go to another meeting.

[Amy Goodman]

Can you tell us what you think about President Trump saying climate change is a hoax? You can answer the question. Are you not speaking to the press here?

[Paulina Borsuk]

Excuse me, I'm sorry, I'm running late for a meeting.

[Amy Goodman]

Thanks. Right, but you weren't running late when you were just standing there. So can you talk about President Trump's saying that climate change is a Chinese hope.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So here we are. That was the first Trump administration. Here we are when they're doing a huge amount more to roll back and actively pay billions of dollars to roll back all sorts of climate mitigation efforts and climate constraints and controls, and we're in a really bad situation. Do you think? And, Amy, I was struck by one of your producers, one of your colleagues, who talked about how you all went to cover the lead up and the Iraq War of 2003. And he said, we were devastated, maybe I'm paraphrasing, that we couldn't stop the Iraq war. And I'm sitting there thinking, you really think you could stop this stuff? So this is my way of asking you, do you think your job is to try to stop this? Whether it's climate, whether it's war? And what about people who say that you're more activists than journalists.

[Amy Goodman]

Our job is to show the images, to interview the people who are so often not heard. And I'm not talking about a fringe minority, not even a silent majority. I mean, when we're talking about people who care about war and peace, who care about the climate catastrophe, the wildfires around the planet, who care about LGBTQ issues, racial justice, and the immigrant crackdown, are not a fringe minority, not even a silent majority, but the silenced majority silenced by the corporate media. Which is why we have to build a network of independent media all over, not only the United States. Reporters know no borders, but around the world. There's a reason why our profession, journalism, is explicitly protected by the US Constitution. It's freedom of speech and freedom of the press. The flip side of freedom of the press is the public's right to know. It's the only way you can have a meaningful democracy. If people have information they can trust, then they can make up their own minds for across the political spectrum.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And, you know, Tia, I mean, look, our great founder Ted Turner created this network to do exactly that. To be reporting the truth, the facts, without fear nor favor, to not be in hock to corporates. And why do you think that the actual corporate media has got to this stage? What are the pressures that you can see that have happened over the last 2025, even maybe longer?

[Tia Lisson]

Well, as we show in the film, you know, Amy Goodman has been sounding the alarm about the dangers of media consolidation ever since the 1996 Telecommunications Act. We've seen larger and larger corporations take on more and more news organizations, Broadcast radio, television, print publications. And that's just way too much power and too few Hands. It is now to the point, you know, we've got this media consolidation on steroids under this administration. And, you know, your own network, which has been in the crosshairs of the Trump administration, of Donald Trump for so many years, may be victim to this. The merger between Paramount and Warner Bros. Discovery may put CNN under the Ellison family and join it with cbs, which means that two major broadcast networks are under the same roof. You know, Donald Trump has accused CNN and the New York Times of treason for its coverage of the war in Iran, you know, which is just outrageous and incredibly chilling. He's also attempting to use his regulatory authority, threatening to pull licenses from networks. He's also eliminated all the funding for public media stations. So, you know, what Amy Goodman and Democracy now has done is create this model which is sort of free from that kind of pressure and that kind of corporate influence. And, you know, she doesn't need to curry favor with an administration for fear of her license being pulled or for fear of a merger not going through. You know, she is able to report on the ground, you know, the most important, most consequential stories of our day.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'd like to ask you, Amy, about one of the very, I thought, amusing, but really interesting interactions you had with a president that's shown up in the documentary. So that's President Clinton on the day of the 2000 election between Al Gore, his vice president, and George W. Bush. And he calls a bunch of media, I guess, to try to get out the vote, and he calls you, and we're going to play a little part of it because it's in the middle of a salsa program on your station. I think you had to bust into this live program and take this call from the President of the United States, but you did not only stick to what the White House wanted to be their talking point. Here we go.

[Amy Goodman]

You hear salsa music loud, and underneath it all, President Clinton is saying, Hello? Hello? Is anyone there? Mr. President, are you there?

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

I am. Can you hear me?

[Amy Goodman]

Yes, we can. You're calling radio stations to tell people to get out and vote. What do you say to people who feel that the two parties are bought by corporations and that their vote doesn't make a difference?

[Paulina Borsuk]

There's not a shred of evidence to support that. That's what I would say.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's true that both parties have wealthy

[Amy Goodman]

supporters, but it was very interesting talking to the leader of the free world.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What did you make of that? Because, yes, he got all slightly bent out of shape that you were taking the conversation into journal territory. And not just a PR agent for get out the vote, but he also stayed and engaged with you for about 30 minutes.

[Amy Goodman]

That's right. I mean, this was an astounding moment. A lot of the media covered this interview he was supposed to call Enduring Democracy now, which was the hour before. He didn't call. So I thought it was a prank call. When they said the White House is calling, I actually thought they said the White Horse was calling, which is a historic bar in Greenwich Village here in New York. But then when he did call into the museum show, I ran in and we started the interview. And yes, I understood he wanted to get out the vote, but there were so many issues that we had to engage in, from Iraq to the bombing of Vieques in Puerto Rico to whether he would be granting clemency to Leonard Peltier. That would happen about a quarter of a century later. But most importantly, yes, he stayed on, and then he said he had to get off. And then I got a call from the White House, and they said they were going to ban me. And I said, what are you talking about? He called me. I didn't call him. And they said, you kept him on the phone for half an hour. I said, he's the leader of the free world. He could hang up if he wants to, but that's our job. Not to be unbended knee to those in power, but ask the questions that so many people have.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly. And I was actually. I laughed when you said he could hang up whenever he wants, because, of course, Donald Trump likely would have hung up whenever he gets a question that he doesn't like or he's taken off on areas that journalists want to ask. He calls them fake news or whatever it is. So I do think that was. That was really interesting. But, Amy, I want to end by asking you, because the film Tia does a really good job of going into your family history, your brother starting his own newsletter when he was a tiny young boy, the fact that he wouldn't take even, you know, censorship from your family. And you describe this as your commitment to this free and independent press and is rooted in your Jewish tradition of asking questions and thought and knowledge and all of that. Tell me a little bit about that.

[Amy Goodman]

I mean, my grandfather was an Orthodox rabbi, and we debated all issues. That was on my mother's side, on my father's side, my great grandfather, a Hasidic rabbi, the Henry street rabbi, going back to the founder of Hasidism. And everywhere in our family, we were asking questions. And, you know, we cover extensively the Middle East. We cover what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon. And that is not in spite of my Jewish education, that is because of it. I mean, I was steeped in the Holocaust, lost family members, family members that fled, family members that couldn't. And always as we grew up, I mean, the message was never again for anyone anywhere.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's a really powerful story that you tell. Your story is powerful. I really admire you fighting this great fight. Well done, Tia, for making this film. And I think a lot of people will get a lot of energy out of watching how positive independent media can be. And you've done a great job. So congratulations to both of you. I'm obviously, you know, an interested party. I make no apologies for it. Great to see it and thanks and well done. Amy Goodman, Journalist, TL ESSENCE Co Director

[Tia Lisson]

thank you so much, Christiane. And thank you for all your work.

[Amy Goodman]

Thank you, Christiane.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Later in the program, the lynching of Emmett Till galvanized the civil rights movement. Now a powerful new exhibition imagines the life that he was denied. My conversation with curator Sarah Lewis and Reverend Wheeler Parker Jr. Next,

[Michel Martin]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Michel Martin]

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[Paulina Borsuk]

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[Michel Martin]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Michel Martin]

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[Paulina Borsuk]

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[Michel Martin]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

I GOT NEWS for your ears. The podcast. I am your host Michael Ian Black. We're talking about the lack of bombs to drop in Iran, the abundance of Trump's bombs at the White House correspondence dinner, the best thing Lindsey Graham ever did that didn't involve a bubble Wand and Mitch McConnell's latest Totally Real proof of life. Have I GOT NEWS for your ears. Check us out on Apple, Amazon Music,

[Michel Martin]

wherever you get your podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Even better, you can watch the Vodcast on Spotify. 85 years ago this week, Emmett Till was born in Chicago. The boy was just 14 years old when he he was abducted and lynched in Mississippi 71 years ago. It's a murder that ignited the civil rights movement after his mother demanded an open coffin, insisting that America see the brutality of its racial violence, a brutal image that is still so hard to look at. Now a new exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Photography at Columbia College in Chicago asks a Profound question. What if Emmett Till had lived through photographs spanning decades of American life, It imagines the future that he was denied. I spoke with historian and curator Sarah Lewis and with Reverend Wheeler Parker, Jr. Emmett Till's cousin and the last living person to have seen him before his abduction and murder. Reverend Parker and Sarah Lewis, welcome to the program. Can I ask you, Reverend, it would be amazing. Emmett Till's 85th birthday this week. As you know, the governor of Illinois has declared his birthday, July 25, as Emmett Till Day. And many say that his killing was the catalyst for the civil rights movement. I want to ask you a personal question. Obviously, what do you personally remember about your cousin and particularly that very last day when you. When you saw him being dragged from your house?

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

Wow, that's a powerful question. It's loaded. I remember very well. And the atmosphere in the house. 2:30 in the morning, dark of a thousand midnights, and thinking and wondering what's going to happen. He had no idea what was becoming of him or where he was going or what they were going to do to him. He had no way of knowing. They tried to prepare him, but he had nothing to let him know exactly what he was facing. It's a very helpless, helpless, helpless feeling. I can't find words to describe the feeling. Knowing where I was, knowing the kind of people we were facing. And something that we know, we knew happened and we knew it could happen to him, but we avoided it because we practiced and followed the Southern mores. He didn't know it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, that is so hard to hear. And I really feel for you. I want to ask you, Sarah, because Rosa Parks had said that she thought of Emmett Till when she refused to get up and vacate her seat under orders on that famous bus. What was it about this story and this person, Emmett Till, that made you want to do this exhibit?

[Sarah Lewis]

Now, it's impossible to understand American history and the catalyst for the Civil rights movement without engaging with the history and life of Emmett Till. I decided to create an exhibition, a creative monument and a book to celebrate his unlived life. When I began to see for myself the decades of resistance that have taken place in defiance of the attempts to move, memorialize and to honor Till and those acts of resistance which include the bullet shot marker that's meant to honor the site where Emmett Till's body was bought at the Tallahatchie river in Greybull Landing in Mississippi, to many others, really represent why bravery is required to confront American history. When you come to see the consistent efforts of resistance to honoring, even 70 years later, Emmett Till's life. It forces a level of urgency in you and as it did in me, to contribute and to do what's required to engage with this legacy. I had my life transformed by meeting Mamie Till Mobley when I was just 14 as well. And in that, years later, began to see that she set forth a moment motto that we're still engaging with today. Let the world see, she said, what they did to my son. But today the question is, what will let people see the reality of American history? Is it enough to just let people see? I think today we have to, at times, make people see, entice them to see. And this exhibition, with over 180 photographs and that unfurl his unlived life, offers a new arena to engage with it. And it's a show that's done alongside other initiatives from Robert's Temple to work in Grebel Landing today.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You've just laid that out beautifully. And we, of course, had that image of that destroyed and defaced memorial. But I want to ask you, because you raised the issue of Emmett Till's mother, who was probably one of the bravest and one of the most defiant people, not just women, but people who we can imagine right now. Because in the face of her mourning, in the face of being at the funeral, she told the pastor that she absolutely needed this coffin to be open. And decades later, she talked about it. And I'm just going to play this so that you, Reverend, and you, Sarah, can just listen to it and we'll talk about her reflections. Mr. Raynor asked me, he said, do you want me to touch the body up? I said, no. Mr. Raynor, let the people see what I've seen. I was just willing to bear it all. I think everybody needed to know what had happened to Emmett Till. Reverend Parker, you were just a couple of years older than your cousin Emmett, and I know you called him Bobo, but I want to know what comes back to you as you hear his mother make that very brave declaration. And I don't know whether you were at the funeral and you saw the open casket.

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

I was. I attended the funeral. I was there. And we have a teaching that we can see each other again. So in my mind, I had no sorrow, no hate, no ill feelings. I said, that's not him. At the same time, I knew it was him, but I believed that I would see him again. Mamie was an extraordinary person because her mother not only controlled, for the lack of another word, her life, but she prepared all of us how to face the future. What I mean by that is the church I now pastor, which is celebrating 100 years in September, started in her house. So we were very well entrenched in how to handle situations, how to deal with life, how to deal with the bumps in the road. And this was a bump in the road. And Mamie was prepared, not knowing what she was going to face. Same thing with all of us that come up around my Aunt Alma, which was. She was. We said she was the Fonz. When she spoke, everybody listened. Had a very soft voice, but it was a commanding voice, a demanding voice, and very drawing and touching and sweet, kind person. Emmett Till, Bobo and his mother were like sisters and brothers as far as I was concerned, because everybody had to cater to Aunt Hammer. But one of us, she could come in the room so softly said, sweetheart, you do this, and Wheeler, you do this here, and everybody get busy. And she could sit down. That's the kind of person she was.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, on that sweet note, let me ask you, Sarah, We've asked you both to choose a couple of images that you want to talk about in this exhibit. So tell me about one of the ones that you've selected and what it means to you, Sarah. You know, had he lived, what would his life have been like?

[Sarah Lewis]

Yes. Yes. A photograph by Stephen Mark, 1988. Young boy suspended in the air, thrown up by his father, for me, is an emblem of this question, what if Emmett Till lived? This photograph is one that jolted me. When I looked through 18,000 images in this collection at this museum of Contemporary photography in Chicago, where the exhibition is held. I asked myself, who could Till have been? As I looked at this young boy confidently suspended in midair, thought of all I had learned about Emmett, who Reverend Parker knows as Bobo, that he loved jokes, he was constantly helping others, that he loved to fish, go to the beach. He could have been a minister, he could have been a leader. And then caught myself in that act of imagination, thinking of Till as that father. And had to catch myself as I realized that he couldn't have been. And so in this photograph, we have suspended possibility, we have suspended dreams. And we have an emblem of what's really forced to on us for the reckoning of this country. What cut short Emmett Till's life. When you ask the question, what if Emmett Till lived? What you're really asking is what would have been required in American society for him to have lived? What would have had to have changed? And this is the work of the moral imagination that's required for creating A new chapter. I think of Mamie Till Mobley in this photograph as well. When she was determined to let the world see what was done to her son. She was prophetic in getting us to engage with the power of the imagination for the work of justice in society. She understood and wasn't alone in this understanding. She understood what Frederick Douglass did about the power of the critical imagination for justice. She understood what W.E.B. du Bois did, what photographers like Gordon Parks did and contemporary photographers like Carrie Mae Weems and Hank Wells Thomas and Deborah Willis did. She really pointed us forward to what's going to be necessary today, which is the work of culture for justice.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me ask you, Reverend, about. Tell me a particular image that you've chosen for us and why you chose it.

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

The particular image I chose reflects the time during that time, for that time. And it shows that we had to be creative. If you notice, my images had no tricycles or bicycles or bought things from the store. You had to create games, hopscotch, and things that cost no money. And we got good at it. So it takes me back there right away. And that's where we lived. And we had more fun than the law allowed. Doing those things. And we appreciated was all inclusive. You could include everybody. You didn't have to have a baseball glove, or you didn't have to have a baseball bat or a pair of gym shoes. Just show up with your body and have a lot of fun.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And what clearly was not a lot of fun for you all those years later is visiting the barn. And we have that image where your cousin was tortured and lynched. He was killed. He was murdered. He was assassinated. What do you think when you go to that place, which is just. Must be just so utterly painful, and you're 87 years old.

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

I learned from this story. It's not a pretty story. It's an ugly story. But it's American history, and there's so much to learn and so much good came out of it. But at the same time, I'd rather have him, and I have had the story, but the life. He gave his life, so to speak, that others may live or that others may have a better life. Not intentionally so. I have mixed emotions. You know, we'd rather for it not to have happened. But he speaks louder in death, and he accomplishes more in death than he would if had left.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes, we said it sparked the major, you know, chapter of the civil rights movement in the United States. But here we are in the year 2026, and there is an actual attempt by the current government to deny that history. I mean, I spoke to Lonnie Bunch, the secretary of the Smithsonian, around the 250th anniversary of the United States, and he was telling me about how American history has had to be marked, celebrated, understood in all its dimensions and diversity. But just now, President Trump has ordered the National Park Service to install temporary signage near the Smithsonian warning of what the administration views as, quote, inaccurate information presented in the exhibits. You know, we've just been speaking about what Emmett Till means to history, and yet here is history being attempted to roll back, to be rolled back. How do you combat that? What do you think about that?

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

It really hurts. I've never known the American history for a black man as I should. We knew that there was racism and all those. But we don't tell our stories and they don't want. Because it paints America in a way that we don't want. America, America to be seen. But you should know the truth and the truth will make you free. Some of the things that we don't tell, we should tell. I was listening to a talk show and trying to get the Jews to stop showing the stories of Holocaust. No, you need to know this. We're going to tell it as long as we can. You need to know the history and people need to know the history. It was without having any ill will, animosity or hate. I know the story when I learn this story. And a lot of blacks don't like to talk about it because they get angry. They get mad. No, we know it because we don't want to repeat it again. Don't let it control you. Don't let it make you hate. Don't let it make you have the wrong feelings. But take that lemon and do like Emmett Till's mother did in her last reconciliation speech. She said, it's like those people who killed my son don't. It's a powerful speech. It's like they don't exist. I have no hate. God's Avengers is mine. And I found out we both were telling the same stories going forward positively because we were taught by her mother and others of the faith. The hate destroys the hater. We can't afford to. And she took that negative and turned it into a positive.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's an amazing story. If Emmett Till Lived is an amazing idea for an exhibit. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis and Reverend Wheeler Parker Jr. Thank you both so much indeed for joining us.

[Sarah Lewis]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

Thank you very much. Appreciate you keep doing the good job.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Coming up after the Break. Before big tech dominated our lives, one woman warned us what was coming. Her story is next.

[Paulina Borsuk]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Amy Goodman]

My guest is Dr. Dhruv Kullar.

[Paulina Borsuk]

He has seen firsthand the effects GLP1s can have on addictive behaviors. Today we're going to talk about how GLP1s are changing us, changing us as humans. And when the cravings go away, sort of trying to figure out, is there something else that we're losing as well. People who had cravings for opioids said that those were being diminished.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And so, you know, we thought about

[Paulina Borsuk]

these as kind of digestive medications, maybe diabetes medications, but they're actually psychoactive medications, or so it seemed. What was so interesting about that is if you're playing with the reward system, that can have real implications for people's maladaptive behaviors. All sorts of addictions, but also potential downside. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thirty years ago, Silicon Valley promised to change the world. It did, just not in the way many imagined. Today, a handful of tech billionaires wield extraordinary power over our politics, our economy, our public discourse, and even our thoughts. But one journalist saw the danger long before big tech became big power. Paulina Borsuk warned that Silicon Valley's libertarian ideology, disdain for government, and worship of wealth would reach far beyond California. Her once overlooked book is now being republished for a new generation. And Michelle Martin speaks with Borsuk about why her critique, which was published in the year 2000, is resonating now.

[Michel Martin]

Paulina Borsuk, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Well, thank you for having me.

[Michel Martin]

Your book Cyber Selfish first came out more than 25 years ago. It was out of print, and through a sort of a magical process which we don't have time to go into here, it has been rediscovered by a whole new generation of fanatical readers. And I just wonder why you think it is resonating so deeply today.

[Paulina Borsuk]

I think there's two things. I think all the issues that I describe in the book, everyone is now seeing around them all the time. Like, oh, this is a book that can articulate and frame what I'm seeing. The second thing is, and I'm just giving you feedback from what I've been told, is that particularly people younger than me are really happy to be reading a book that is kind of in the tradition of the new journalism. It's funny, it's playful, it's not didactic. It doesn't read like a TED Talk. They like the style. They like the fact that it's really kind of like an irreverent travelogue through subcultures of Silicon Valley. And I think readers find that really enjoyable. I'm not having one point. I'm trying to beat to death in it. It's sort of like, well, odd subculture here. What do you think about this? That's my theory. I mean, I don't really know. I don't know why the algorithm decided that I was this year's it girl. I had nothing to do with it.

[Michel Martin]

Well, you are this year's it girl, but. But I wanted to sort of start by how you saw what you saw.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Actually, this is relevant. I grew up in Southern California, in Pasadena, which is around the whole Caltech, jpl, STEM culture. And so when I moved to the Bay Area and I was running into Silicon Valley, this was in the 80s, I thought, oh, these sweet, smart geeks are like the parents of the people I grew up with. And then I began to realize that. Not exactly. I began to realize that there was a real difference in mindset between the kind of, I want to say, fdr, New Deal, space program, we can do good things, all this kind of stuff, with this other mindset that was very puzzling to me because I remember thinking, one, what are they so angry about? And two, no sector of society has benefited more and suffered less from the government than these people, so why are they acting like this? So, as I always tell people, if I don't understand something, I want to write about it. And so I just started paying ATT because I was very immersed in Silicon Valley culture. I was working for computer magazines. I would occasionally do corporate hack work for the companies. I was really immersed in that culture. So I was just paying attention and had my ears and eyes open. And it's just. It's a bad habit of mine. I just sort of sit there and watch.

[Michel Martin]

Well, the thing that's interesting about the book is that it's being hailed as prophecy. And you write about this in your afterword. You say Cyber Selfish was written as a description of a subculture. It was never intended as a book of prophecy. But that, sadly, is what it has turned out to be. Social scientists and historians probably have a name for what happens when a minority culture becomes a majority one. What was written about here has become the dominant ideology of Silicon Valley leaders. And you say that the trends and ideas of this subculture coming into domination have had effects far worse than I could have imagined. Back when I was working on a project in the 1990s. What's the subculture that we're talking about here?

[Paulina Borsuk]

Well, I called it libertarian. Gilda Rang. I'll call it tech fascist, but you know, libertarian is the world. A word I use which meant that violently anti regulation. Drunk on Ayn Rand in eighth grade and never got over it. Lacking in empathy, very, you know, misappropriating biology. Let everything just evolve on its own and it will be fine. The free market will take care of everything. Fairly sexist, it's much worse now. But their sexism was there, which at the time really kind of surprised me because in the 80s and 90s I knew women in technology. There weren't a ton, but they were there. And this sort of crackpot sociobiology, anti female thing mainly wasn't in the mainstream then. And now I feel it's become the mainstream in Silicon Valley. And also my feeling about the book and okay, this sounds grotesquely self aggrandizing, but I don't mean it that way, is I read Silent Spring when it came out and once you read that, you can never look at pesticides the same way, you can never look at the environment the same way, you can never look at birds the same way. And my hope with the book is people would read it and they'd suddenly now be able to put the pieces together when they hear the latest silly remark by the latest AI spokesmodel. In other words, I wanted to give people kind of a cognitive framing tool. And that's what the book is about. Because it isn't a definite narrative, it's just, well, this happened, this happened. Or look at this thing over here.

[Michel Martin]

This isn't just a book about technology though, it's a book about values. That's right. You argue that once you understand the mindset driving the industry, you understand everything from its politics to its business practices. So just looking at today headlines, for example, about you know, AI, AI company systems, or about people like Elon Musk,

[Paulina Borsuk]

we do is good and should not be questioned. That that's definitely built into all this. You remember there was a chapter on philanthropy and it was both on how they don't give any or very little. A lot of times even in those days, if there was a philanthropic gesture, it was a piece of technology in those days, like, oh, we will wire your school. Never mind. That means you're locking in generations of kids, let's say, who learned on a Mac and that's all they ever know. And there's other examples of that, but it's like these people they're living in such a self referential bubble and it just keeps on feeding on itself.

[Michel Martin]

One of the things you talk about a lot is the fact that many of these people are so virulently anti government. And one of the things that you say really early on in the book is I was trying to make sense of the libertarianism I found all around. The belief systems I ran into were confusing for this passionate libertarian population has for the most part only experienced good things and not bad from government. And you point out, and I think this is something that many people know just how dependent on government funding, resources, education, you know, research dollars, the electrical

[Paulina Borsuk]

grid, you know, not just, you know, public education, not just the funding for research. I mean government in a basic, like, you know, when government works, you don't notice it. I can't explain it any other way, but yeah, they had no awareness of. I don't know if I mentioned this at Brooke or not, but until the early 90s, the biggest employer in Silicon Valley was Lockheed, which is a defense contractor. In other words, they were piggybacking on, you know, decades of government investment, all kinds of things. And you know, I would say even the GI Bill, which enabled people to make buy houses on the peninsula, you know, with getting loans, you know, in the FHA and stuff like that. And the government was there, embedded, making their life safe and possible and they just didn't see it. I have a crackpot theory about this. Part of it is the bad sociobiology that a lot of them inhale. But also I think one of the things that happened is the Netscape IPO ruined everything that was Wall street woke up and went, whoa, there's a lot of money to be made here. So you had Silicon Valley invaded by toxic Wall street finance, bro culture. And that to me was the beginning of when things really began to change. And that is a very woman hospital world and certainly was in the 90s. So to me that was one of the things that poisoned the environment because yeah, I knew many women technologists and there wasn't this pervasive, creepy whatever it was. And I also think Wired magazine had a lot to do with this. When I started writing to them, you know, they embraced me as a writer, for which I'm really grateful. And they treated technology as culture, which is how I saw it. And they gave me great freedom and support. So I'm not complaining about them in that way. I didn't realize for a while what a boys club it was. And I didn't realize how much sexism and sex discrimination in the workplace. There was. And I didn't realize how much they were into this cult of male founder. In other words, I didn't see it initially. Just to.

[Michel Martin]

Just to clarify, when you were talking about Wired, you're talking about the Wired of your era.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Of my era. Not the Wired Now. The Wired now, it's got the same name, but it's an entirely different publication. Actually, they're doing a profile on me, which is coming out in the middle of September. And if you had told me that 15 years ago that Wired is doing a profile of me, it's like, whoa. But it's a very different publication now. They're still devoted to science and technology, but they are. They're channeling me these days.

[Michel Martin]

It's interesting because every time I've covered one of these stories, airing critiques about AI or the current tech environment or whatever, you get this pushback. The industry has produced extraordinary innovations that have transformed every field from medicine to communication to education. And I guess the question would be, do you separate the culture from the technology itself?

[Paulina Borsuk]

Let's even stop there. Because my feeling is basically starting after the dot com crash, what has been a technology innovation, I don't consider like Airbnb or Uber technology innovation. They're financial place. They're not really technology innovation. If we're talking about AI, there's plenty of anti AI critique coming up, which I think is valid and good and true. So when people say stuff like the pushback that you get, I want to go, what exactly is it that you're talking about?

[Michel Martin]

Well, I'm thinking about the large data sets and the benefit of being able to analyze large amounts of data at once, that the ability to, for example, I would think in medical diagnosis, for example, this way large data sets help people kind of figure out how to they can.

[Paulina Borsuk]

But even there, I trip. You know, don't get me ranting about AI. You can imagine what I'd have to say. I mean, I'm a, you know, a real dye the world tree hugger. So I can't get over the environmental impact and the slave labor and the piracy. But AI hallucinates. I don't trust what AI would kick up. I mean, you know, I've had AI confidently tell me that I wrote XYZ for XYZ publication. No, that's just not true. I mean, me, I'm just paranoid. If I can't trust what I'm getting back, I don't even want to interrogate it. I get your point. But to me, it's not trustworthy responses.

[Michel Martin]

What I'm telling you is that the pushback I get when people raise these criticisms of Silicon Valley, some of the criticisms that you raise and the culture of it and the sort of single mindedness of it and the self focused nature of it is to say, well, the culture is partly what leads to these innovations. That's the question I'm putting to you.

[Paulina Borsuk]

The feeling I know among entrepreneurs, I know these days is they can't get any money unless it's for AI. In other words, there is a culture of innovation. But right now all the money is going into AI. So if you want to do something else, it may be hard to get funding for it. And we can have a whole discussion about what does founding a company mean these days. The culture of flip and flee has been around for 30 years, which is you just create enough company so enough value in the company. So either you get bought out or you can have the IPO take your money and if the company tanks in a year, you don't care. So yeah, there's innovation, but there's a lot of, to me, financial engineering, funny money, innovation going on. That's not really innovation like you are. I'm all in favor of alternative energy, of course, how could I not be? Or alternative ways of filtering water or a million good things, you know, medtech and biotech things. You and I could think of a million ones. I'm not against that. I'm just what I was critiquing was this stockholder theory of value which kind of really took over Silicon Valley.

[Michel Martin]

Do you have a sense that the worm is turning in some way, as evidenced by the fact that your book is now coming back into print, that there has been a whole movement to get your book back into print. There are more people criticizing AI. You've seen subsequently, for example, that there are recently in a jurisdiction near here, there are a number of jurisdictions in the Washington D.C. area where I have now have placed moratoriums on data centers in place. So do you think that there's more? The worm is turning, by the way, that this kind of uncritical celebration is changing?

[Paulina Borsuk]

It looks like it, and I hope so. And I hope that people also realize that there's real value in participating in local government. You can get a lot done if you're willing to show up the city council, the county zoning thing. I mean, you know, participate in the government is sort of what I'm gonna say, make it yours. So I think you're right. I hope you're right. It looks that way to me, too. I have to tell you, this opening, it's been very funny to me to run into people to go, oh, yeah, I read it when it came out and I said, if all the people who said to me, I read it when it came out bought it, how come it didn't sell? Well, I don't know. I would have hoped when it came out that it had some lasting value, that somehow it affected policy and how people thought about technology. You know, it's also puzzling, as you probably know this. You know, the Bay Area is still mostly, mostly votes blue. I mean, rokhanas are the representative of Silicon Valley. So how do you equate that with these other people? I can't put them together except to say that Silicon Valley is a multicultural place in the true sense of it. There are these people and then there's the rokhanas of the world. I do think a lot of the rank and file people in Silicon Valley now keep their head down and keep their mouth shut. You know, they want to keep their job. They're not going to say that they disagree with this stuff.

[Michel Martin]

Well, that's the other question I have then. Is it possible that it's just too late now?

[Paulina Borsuk]

Well, I tend to be Debbie Downer and very much an Eeyore. And of course, you know, I don't want it to be too late. Maybe it is too late, but as you and I know from history, sometimes amazing things can come from the ashes. But what I wonder what happens is when the water really starts running out and the water is really starting to run out. I mean, you probably know about what's going on in the southwest and the drought, when the water begins to run out, when the grid becomes unreliable, when you can't get the materials you need to make more semiconductors. I mean, I think the true environmental cost of this, I think, is going to come home sooner than later and maybe that will change people's minds.

[Michel Martin]

Paulina Barcic, thank you so much for talking to us.

[Paulina Borsuk]

Well, thanks for having such a good and smart and funny conversation.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is never too late to learn. And that's it for now. Now, if you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

[Wheeler Parker Jr.]

Go inside the sports moments that brought us together and made history. From the underdogs to the rivalries and the miracles. The new CNN original series, Decades in sports. Watch back to back. Premieres August 2nd on CNN.

[Paulina Borsuk]

And next day on the CNN App.