Brazilian Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour – Brazilian Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira

Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)
Air Date: September 23, 2025
Main Guests: Mauro Vieira (Brazilian Foreign Minister), Danny Danon (Israeli Ambassador to the UN), Adam Tooze (Historian/Economist)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour focuses on seismic shifts in global affairs as witnessed at the United Nations General Assembly:

• President Trump's combative speech targeting the UN, European allies, Brazil, and climate policy
• Escalating international recognition of Palestinian statehood amid Israel’s deepening isolation
• Brazil’s high-profile defense of its judiciary and sovereignty against U.S. intervention, particularly over former President Bolsonaro’s prosecution
• In-depth interviews with Brazilian Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira, Israeli Ambassador Danny Danon, and economist Adam Tooze on the Fed’s independence

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. President Trump’s United Nations Speech

(00:06–02:57)

• Trump criticized the UN as ineffective and railed against open borders and climate change policies, calling the latter "the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world."
• Stressed U.S. sovereignty and rejected multilateral mechanisms.
• Attacked the credibility of climate science and dismissed trade relationships, particularly targeting Brazil and Europe.

“It’s time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now.”
— Donald Trump (01:52)

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2. U.S.-Brazil Tensions and Bolsonaro Prosecution

(04:11–19:55)

Mauro Vieira Responds on U.S. Interference

• Strong condemnation of U.S. tariffs and perceived interference regarding Bolsonaro prosecution.
• Emphasizes Brazil’s unwavering sovereignty and the independence of its judicial system.

“Our sovereignty [and] our democracy are non-negotiable.”
— Mauro Vieira (04:11)

Key Points:

• The U.S. imposed a 50% tariff on Brazil to pressure it over Bolsonaro’s ongoing trial; Bolsonaro has now been sentenced to 27 years for coup plotting.
• President Trump criticized Brazil as “doing poorly” and claimed Brazil would “fail” without the U.S.
• Vieira refuted Trump’s claims, citing actual trade figures:
  • U.S. is Brazil’s third-largest partner; China is first, EU second.
  • Brazil has a trade deficit with the U.S. (~$20 billion/year); many U.S. products enter Brazil tariff-free.

“He’s not well informed. Maybe his advisers didn’t pass on to him the right numbers.”
— Mauro Vieira (08:02)

• Brazil's democracy is safeguarded by constitutional limits—even the legislature’s current discussions about a potential amnesty for Bolsonaro would be “unconstitutional and it won’t be.”

Clarifies Lula-Trump Relations and Meeting Rumors

• Lula and Trump had only brief interactions at the UN; no substantive meeting happened.
• Potential for a future video call, but Lula’s schedule is packed.

"They never met before ... Maybe for 15 or 20 seconds. President Lula told me that President Trump said they should meet and they should talk."
— Mauro Vieira (06:26)

On Allegations of U.S. Pressure from Bolsonaro’s Son

• Vieira denies knowing the source of Trump’s information, claims the trial was thorough.
• Asserts that executive amnesty is constitutionally constrained: “Democracy fundamentally cannot be amnestied, understood?” (11:42)

On Comparisons with U.S. Response to Insurrection

• Brazil’s prosecution after Bolsonaro’s coup attempt stands in contrast to the U.S. approach post-January 6; most January 6 defendants have received pardons under Trump's second term.

“We fought for [democracy] 40 years ago ... We have resisted different pressures, especially this one, which was very, very serious, with a plan to kill the president, the vice president, and the president of the Supreme Court.”
— Mauro Vieira (13:25)

Brazil's Economic and Political Fortitude

• Brazil’s unemployment is lowest in history, inflation controlled, and growth steady at 3-3.5%.
• Political standing of Lula improved due to resolute response to U.S. pressure.

“From the economic point of view, the country was doing very well ... After all this, he defended very strongly the democracy, the society, the sovereignty, and of course, his rates of approval raised.”
— Mauro Vieira (14:36)

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3. Brazil, Climate, and the COP

(15:25–17:56)

• Trump’s speech rejected climate accords and called green energy a "scam".

• Vieira responded by emphasizing Brazil’s leadership:

  • 92% of electrical matrix in Brazil is renewable; total energy ~50%.
  • “Brazil is a champion of energy and clean energy and energy transition ... We believe in renewables and we are fighting for energy transition.” (17:17)

• Lula invited Trump to COP30 in Belem, Amazon; calls COP30 “the COP of truth”.

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4. Brazil’s Stand on Palestine and Gaza

(17:56–19:46)

• Brazil, a pioneer in recognizing Palestinian statehood, joined South Africa at the ICJ in accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza.
• Vieira strongly condemns both Hamas’s terrorism and what he calls Israel’s disproportionate response: “For us, it’s a genocide. You cannot use hunger as a weapon of war. You cannot do what’s going on in Gaza.” (18:40)
• Asserts that recognizing Palestine is not a "reward for Hamas."

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5. Israeli Ambassador Danny Danon on Growing Isolation

(22:29–37:36)

On Global Recognition of a Palestinian State

• Danon admits war is longer and harder than expected but insists military pressure is the only way to defeat Hamas and return hostages.

“No one expected it to last for more than two years. ... We have 48 hostages still in Gaza. We have to do everything we can and we will bring them back home.”
— Danny Danon (22:50)

Civilian Casualties and War Aims

• Amanpour presses Danon on the staggering civilian toll—citing claims that up to 200,000 in Gaza have been killed or wounded (based on statements from a former IDF general), hunger as a weapon, and that Israel has achieved its military objectives.
• Danon denies vengeance as motive, blames Hamas for starting the war and for all suffering, and says Israel will only end the war when Hamas is destroyed and hostages returned.

“They started this war. We had a ceasefire before October 7. They came into our communities, kidnapped our babies, raped our women. Don't blame us for what we are doing. It's a war of self-defense.”
— Danny Danon (36:22)

Israeli Government’s Next Moves

• Israel has not officially adopted policy to expel Palestinians but will "have to sit down and discuss it" in response to international recognition of Palestine.
• Cites the need for direct negotiations, not unilateral recognition.

Settlement Expansion and PA Relations

• Hints at expanding settlements and possibly sanctioning/throttling the PA as a response to recent international moves.
• Reiterates, “Peace in the Middle East will come from direct negotiations, not from UN resolutions or UN conferences.” (32:14)

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6. Economic Deep Dive: The Federal Reserve under Trump

Guest: Adam Tooze
(38:36–53:18)

• Tooze explains the unique structure of the U.S. Federal Reserve—quasi-governmental, insulated from politics but historically the object of political contest.
• Discusses long history of political struggle over the Fed’s role, including the 1970s’ dual mandate for full employment and price stability, the Volcker shock, and technocratic dominance.
• Tooze’s NYT piece calls for a “properly democratic Fed”—meaning more periodic Congressional oversight, public debate, and responsiveness.
• Warns that defending the Fed's independence merely out of fear of MAGA overreach is defeatist; instead, progressives should proactively shape the debate.
• The controversy specifically references MAGA attacks on Fed governor Lisa Cook, the first Black woman to serve in such a role.

“There's nothing [the MAGA movement] don't think they can do. The problem with the defensive position...is that it robs you of that opportunity to keep thinking.”
— Adam Tooze (44:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Vieira on U.S. Interference:
  “We are always ready to talk and to negotiate. But we are ready to negotiate. The taxes, the tariffs, although they are illegal… But we are ready to talk and to discuss. The only things that we cannot discuss: the sovereignty or the independence of powers in Brazil.” (05:13)

• Vieira on Bolsonaro’s Coup Attempt:
  “Hundreds of thousands of proofs against Bolsonaro and the generals... The first time in history in Brazil that the former president is trialed and condemned because he tried to destroy Brazilian democracy.” (10:58)

• Danon on Hostages and Hamas:
  “We believe that if we will stop the war now, we will not get the hostages back and Hamas will stay in power.…It’s only the military and the might of the IDF that actually brought Hamas to a position to negotiate with us.” (28:49)

• Tooze on Technocratic Defensiveness:
  “The reflex against Trump’s toxic politics...ends up ruling out the possibility of a more serious argument. …I don’t see how entrenching technocratic exclusivity on this issue is going to make things any better.” (49:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s UN Speech Clip: 01:41–02:57
• Mauro Vieira’s Brazil Interview Begins: 04:43
• Trade/Tariffs Discussion: 07:28–09:04
• Bolsonaro Coup/Amnesty Discussion: 10:20–12:44
• Climate & COP: 15:25–17:56
• Palestine Recognition: 17:56–19:46
• Danny Danon (Israel Interview) Main Segment: 22:29–37:36
• Federal Reserve; Adam Tooze: 38:36–53:18

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Conclusion

This episode of Amanpour offers a rare, high-level debate on sovereignty, democracy, and justice in a rapidly shifting world order. Viewers hear strongly worded defenses of national sovereignty from Brazil, candid admissions from Israel about the war’s costs and motivations, and a call for democratic renewal in U.S. institutional life from an economic historian.

The tone is urgent, direct, and global—mirroring the disarray and contest now dominating international relations and domestic politics alike.

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. President Trump lashes out lambasting the United nations and the world on climate and immigration as he addresses its General Assembly. And here in the corridors of power, a wave of Israeli allies join the majority formally recognizing a Palestinian state. While in Gaza, dozens more are killed, killed by the idf. With Israel increasingly isolated, tough questions facing their government. I'll put that to Danny Danone, the Israeli ambassador to the un. Plus a showdown between the United States and Brazil as the Trump administration targets those who led the Bolsonaro prosecution. Brazil's foreign minister will join me. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour here in New York at the United nations, where Donald Trump has used his address to attack the 80 year old institution and his own European allies with a MAGA style rally speech. Trump started off by touting his own domestic achievements before laying into the United nations and Europe on everything from migration to climate change policies. Take a listen.

[Donald Trump]

What is the purpose of the United Nations? The UN has such tremendous potential, I've always said has such tremendous, tremendous potential, but it's not even coming close to living up to that potential. For the most part, at least for now, all they seem to do is write a really strongly worded letter and then never follow that letter up. It's time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now. See, I can tell you I'm really good at this stuff. Your countries are going to hell. It's climate change because if it goes higher or lower, whatever the hell happens, there's climate change. It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion. Climate change, no matter what happens, you're involved in that. No more global warming, no more global cooling. All of these predictions made by the United nations and many others, often for bad reasons, were wrong. They were made by stupid people that have cost their country's fortunes and given those same countries no chance for success. If you don't get away from this green scam, your country is going to fail.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And on the war in Ukraine, the President again touted his relationship with Vladimir Putin, but also said that he was ready to impose strong sanctions on Russia only if NATO countries first agreed to stop buying Russian oil. Ignoring the fact that since 2022 and the full scale invasion, European allies have imposed waves of sanctions on Putin and on Gaza as his closest allies recognize Palestinian statehood now, he again insisted the move rewards Hamas tradition dictates, of course, that the first country to address the UN on every general assembly is Brazil. And meanwhile, Brazil and the US Are at loggerheads over the prosecution of the former president Jair Bolsonaro, a staunch Trump ally. Washington hit Brazil with a 50% trade tariff in an attempt to stop Bolsonaro's trial, but he's now been sentenced to 27 years in prison for plotting a coup against Lula. Brazil's legislature is currently debating whether to grant an amnesty. And the US Is again interfering, revoking visas and imposing sanctions on on the wife of the judge who oversaw Bolsonaro's conviction. Here's President Lula da Silva earlier.

[Mauro Vieira]

This interference in domestic affairs is aided by a subservient far right who is nostalgic of past hegemonies. False patriots plan and publicly promote actions against Brazil. Brazil sent a message to all aspiring autocrats and those who support our democracy, Our sovereignty are non negotiable.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And while President Trump made some positive remarks about his Brazilian counterpart, he criticized the country, saying it was doing, quote, poorly. I'm joined now here by the country's foreign minister, Mauro Vieira. Welcome to the program.

[Mauro Vieira]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Cristiano, I dare ask you on a public forum how you respond to President Trump's speech in general and his specific attacks on Brazil, saying that you're going to fail without him.

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, Brazil is a country of negotiation and very open. We are always ready to talk and to negotiate. And we have been approached by other high officials of the U.S. government. And I myself said that the political issue is in negotiable. There's no space at all, not even one inch to negotiate. But we are ready to negotiate. The taxes, the tariffs that we can do, although they are illegal, they are not in the structure, no, in the structure of wto, of all the trade agreements that we have. But we are ready to talk and to discuss the only things that we cannot discuss, the sovereignty or the independence of powers in Brazil. As President Padula said in his speech.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Today, that your democracy is sovereign and nothing can interfere with it. Can I ask you, because everybody picked this up, so maybe you can clarify. President Trump said some nice things about your President Lula. Apparently you tell me how they met, but in front of the world, he said, and we're going to meet next week. What does that mean? Is this news to you or how will that happen?

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, they never met before, and today they have the occasion to shake hands and exchange a couple of words, maybe for 15 or 20, 20 seconds. As president Lula was leaving the podium and they met at this room at the back of the podium. And it's true. President Lula told me that President Trump said they should meet and they should talk. I hope we can talk with President Lula, with President Trump. President Lula will always be ready to talk to, as he has been in the past, to talk to any chief of state that has interest to discuss issues with Brazil. And in this case, it will have to be by a phone call or video conference because unfortunately, President Lula is leaving tomorrow back to Brazil. He's very busy. He has a very busy agenda, so it won't be possible to meet personally. But they all speak, and I'm very glad that it happened.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you think a meeting by video or whatever will manage to reduce the big thing that Trump has done, and that is impose 50% tariffs on your country? Muller told me he's had several interviews. He's written about it. He said. I think he used the word emperor. We are not going to bow to the dictates of an emperor. I'm paraphrasing. Can you just give me the facts about the trade deficit? Because Trump says that the US Has a trade deficit, and that's one of the reasons why he's slapping those tariffs on. But I think it's the reverse, isn't it?

[Mauro Vieira]

No, no. He's not well informed. Maybe his advisory didn't pass on to him the right numbers. But Brazil has a huge deficit and it's with the U.S. with the U.S. yes. We have, over the last 15 years, we have more than $410 billion of deficit. With the United States, it's something around $20 billion every year. And our tariffs, the average tariffs of Brazil to imports from the United States is 2.7%, which the 10 most important issues, we import, the products we import from the United states. Out of 10, eight enter Brazil tax free. So he's not well informed. And he repeated it once again. I think it's fundamental that they speak on the phone that President Lula has the occasion to explain all that to him.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And just one more question in response to President Trump who said, without me, without US the United States, Brazil will fail. But has Brazil diversified its economy? Does it rely totally on us for its economy, or are there other countries that Brazil relies on?

[Mauro Vieira]

We have a very balanced trade with the world. And with each continent of the world, we have something around 20 to 25%. The second largest trade partner of Brazil is European Union. United States the third and the first partner is China. And the trade with the United States today represents something around 11% of our foreign trade with other countries. So, of course, it's an important country for Brazil. It's an important partner in terms of investments, of trades. We have also a lot of investments. Brazilian business people invest in the United States. We export, we import. And those Brazilians who invest here, they generate 120,000 jobs in the United States, which is very important. So we face favor a very good climate of business between the two countries.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So do you then think, as many Brazilians do and many observers, that part of President Trump's reaction to you is pressure from former President Bolsonaro's son, who came here to lobby for this administration, to resist and try to get your country to stop the investigation and the prosecution of the former President Bolsonaro? And do you think the president is still trying to effect what's happening to Bolsonaro, I mean, President Trump, because even now that he's been convicted of attempting a coup against Lula's election, you see your legislator is talking about amnesty. So tell us where all this stands.

[Mauro Vieira]

Yeah, well, first of all, President Trump, of course, is a very busy man being President of the United States, and he may not be well informed. I don't know where he gets his information about the political scene in Brazil. I don't know if he has met personally the sons of the former president or how these informations get to him, but they are distorted on the way he receives it. The trial was very long. There are hundreds of thousands of proofs against Bolsonaro and the generals and people who worked with him. They were all convicted. As President Lula said today, the first time in history in Brazil that the former president is trialed and condemned because he tried to destroy Brazilian democracy as well as very high rank military. And this is done because the powers are totally independent in Brazil and there is no possible interference, not even in terms of amnesty, especially with this, because the constitution limits the power of the president to give amnesty. And democracy fundamentally cannot be amnesty, understood?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Your legislature able to vote for it or not.

[Mauro Vieira]

And it's they, of course, they are discussing. There is a huge. There was huge manifestation, popular manifestation in the streets the last days against the amnesty. They are discussing. But if they approve a very ample amnesty, it will be unconstitutional and it won't be I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, as you know, others have said that what the Brazilian democratic and judicial process did after a former president refused to recognize an election and refused to accept that he had lost an election was in a way a lesson to how the United States should have done it, you know, when President Trump didn't and still doesn't recognize that he lost the 2020 election, then there was the assault on the Congress. And now that he's back in office, President Trump has pardoned almost all those who were convicted under the January 6th coup attempt. Do you think that Brazil is showing how a democracy should stand up for itself or not?

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, I don't know if this is the interpretation of President Trump, if this is how he sees the problem, but we are not concerned with the opinion of other countries. We are concerned in our democracy. We share a lot our democracy. We fought for it 40 years ago when we approved the constitution in 1988. And we have resisted different pressures, especially this one, which was very, very serious, with a plan to kill the president, the vice president, and the president of the Supreme Court. So I think, and the proofs are clear, the trial was open. They had ample right of def broadcasted by television. So there's no doubt about it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I just want to ask you because, you know, President Lula was doing not so well in terms of the economy, in terms of what people were thinking before all this flared up. Now he's doing a lot better for being, you know, somebody who's seen to be standing well, is standing up to the greatest superpower. It's served him well in a way, politically, this confrontation.

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, what I can tell you is that from the economic point of view, the country was doing very well. The unemployment rate is the lowest in history, inflation under control and average growth of 3, 3.5% a year, which is good in the present circumstances around the world. So in terms of economy, it was going very well. After all this, he defended very strongly. President Lula defended very strongly the democracy, the society, the sovereignty, and of course, his rates of approval. Raised. Yes, raised. And that's very good. And it's not only in Brazil, in other countries in the region, the same happens.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me ask you, another big international forum that you're going to be hosting in a couple of months is the copy it's happening in, I believe, Belem in the Amazon region. First of all, your reaction to President Trump? Well, you know, he proudly again stated that he had pulled the United States out of the fake what he said Climate Paris accords. He also said that green energy is a big con, that all countries who continue with green and renewable policies will fail. And he said it's a huge scam. What is your response to that?

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, first of all, I'd like to make it very clear that although both Presidents have never met before and they never speak one to the other. President Lula congratulated President Trump through posting in his social media when he was elected. And recently, maybe about a month ago, he sent a letter to President Lula inviting him to come to COP30. This is very important. The United States as the largest economy has to be present too. We hope he will be present. If not, he will appoint a high level official to represent the United States and participate in this cop, which will be the COP of truth, as President Lula says, because it's the moment to take very important decisions and to implement everything that was discussed so far. And this is a moment to try to save the planet and control climate change.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And just briefly before I move on to the Palestinian issue, President Trump said renewables are rubbish. Essentially. He said that they don't work, that fossil fuel is the best. And countries do you find your use of renewables are net positive or net drag on your economy?

[Mauro Vieira]

Well, this is his opinion. We have a total different opinion. Brazil is a champion of energy and clean energy and energy transition. Electrical matrix in Brazil is 92% renewable. And as far as energy, it's something like 50 or 52. We believe in renewables and we believe and we are fighting for energy transition. This is a contribution. This will save the planet. That's our position. Of course, he has a different one, but this is up to him.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And finally, the United. I know Brazil recognized a Palestinian state officially, I think in 2010. I mean, you were very much in the vanguard. But a lot of Israeli allies across Europe, Canada, Australia, elsewhere have chosen to do so. At this anger, what is your reaction? Because President Trump has said that this is just a report for Hamas that they need to see obviously the hostages released. And that's the only line that drew an applause when he said that they must be released. And obviously the Israeli government is very against this and is threatening sort of retaliation. Tell me why you think it's important, what it will do and why, and whether you think it is a reward for Hamas and terrorism.

[Mauro Vieira]

No, it's not. From our point of view, it's not a reward for Hamas. We condemned Hamas for his terrorist attack. That was terrible. We strongly condemn till today, but this does not justify the vengeance against the Palestinian people. The other day there was a former high official from the idf, the Israeli Defense Force, who said that the number of deaths is something like 10% of the population of Gaza. So this is 200,000 people. And so far the numbers we are working with is 60 or 70,000. So it's very serious. And that's why President Lula has been saying that it's a genocide. And that's why we joined South Africa in the International Court of Justice in this question and this discussion about genocide. For us, it's a genocide. You cannot use hunger as a weapon of war. You cannot do what's going on in Ghana.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And we'll wait to see whether it makes a difference. And of course, we're going to have the Israeli ambassador on after this break. But for the moment, thank you, Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira for joining us.

[Mauro Vieira]

Thank you so much. A pleasure to be with you again and likewise.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you. And stay with us because we'll be back after this break.

[Audie Cornish]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

I find not helpful is when elected officials go on air and say, well.

[Audie Cornish]

This is not who we are. Patti Davis, Davis's father, President Ronald Reagan, was the target of an assassination attempt in 1981 outside the Washington Hilton Hotel.

[Christiane Amanpour]

From where I sit, this is exactly who we are right now.

[Audie Cornish]

We are going to try to look at this moment with someone who has studied not just how we get into cycles of political violence, but how we have gotten out. Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.

[Christiane Amanpour]

While the powerful gather in the halls behind me in Gaza, people are dying. As Israel intensifies its offensive on Gaza City, it has killed dozens more in the enclosure. The humanitarian situation worsens by the second and Israeli hostages are left to languish and in grave danger. Trump's only applause line today was when he called for the release of the hostages. Here's what one hostage mother has said about Prime Minister Netanyahu's existing plan.

[Adam Tooze]

He knows the danger that lies on.

[Mauro Vieira]

The heads of hostages and soldiers heads.

[Audie Cornish]

And decided with deliberate intent to sentence his citizen's death. Prime minister is sentencing his citizens to death. For him, our children's blood is a political instrument.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now as outrage mounts around the world, Israel is increasingly isolated, but its prime minister continues to defy Warnings. Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Danone, is joining me now. Welcome to the program.

[Danny Danon]

Thank you for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, all right. So would you dispute the fact that Israel is becoming increasingly isolated and increasingly viewed as a pariah around the world? You have all these allies now, from Canada to Europe to Australia and beyond, joining the majority in recognizing a Palestinian state officially.

[Danny Danon]

It has been a very long war also for us. You know, no one expected it to last for more than two years. And now we entering almost two years. We didn't expect it to be so long. And I know that many countries want to show that they are doing something, but we are focused on the goals of the war. And the goal is to bring the hostages back and to eliminate Hamas. We have achieved a lot, but we haven't finished the job. And we are committed. And that's what we are telling our allies here. You know, it's very nice to have all those declarations, the conferences, but let's face reality. And President Trump, Trump gave a very powerful speech and he faced reality. The reality is we have 48 hostages still in Gaza. We have to do everything we can and we will bring them back home. And Hamas is still in part of Gaza. Still. They have control. I think that we are moving forward and we are getting close to the situation where we will be able to defeat Hamas. So it's not easy for us to ig all those condemnations. But I would ask any leader that came here today, what would you do if you had 48 citizens of your own country now in the tunnels in Gaza?

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is an awful situation for those hostages, there is no doubt about it. But many of the families say that it is your government's policies that are lengthening their issues and their imprisonment and their captivity in mortal danger. Many of the hostages have said that the latest offensive against Gaza City is essentially signing their death warrant. Those who are still alive. Qatar said when you bombed the negotiators in Qatar, in Doha, that this spells the death. This is a death warrant for those hostages. I see you shaking your head.

[Adam Tooze]

Why not?

[Danny Danon]

We have no interest to prolong this war.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, no, I'm talking about the hostages now.

[Danny Danon]

So I'm telling that also to the hostage families, and we meet them, we host them here. They will come to the UN the day after tomorrow. But, you know, we're doing everything we can to bring them home. And sitting idly by and waiting for Hamas to accept the release of the hostages, it's not going to happen. Only pressure on Hamas will Move the needle. And that's exactly what we are doing. We are applying more pressure and I think it's moving to the right direction.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, I've covered many wars and by the way, I'm going to make a formal petition to you right now to let us into Gaza. You can answer me in a second. But what we've seen is that the United States, your closest ally, said that this time last year, in fact more than a year ago, Israel had accomplished its military objectives, you had defeated Hamas as a ruling entity, as a powerful entity, and you could have gone into more negotiations to get your hostages back then. That's number one. Number two, your own military affairs officials. Your former chief of staff of the military, Herzi Halevi, has said that this year he told a community meeting in Southern Israel that 1 in 10 Palestinians, that is 10% of Palestinians of Gaza have been killed or injured since this war began. More than 200,000 people killed or injured. And that Israel took the gloves off and faced no legal restrictions in its actions. This has gone beyond what most people would admit was at the beginning, your right to self defense. You've achieved your military objectives. Now civilians are being killed by the thousands every day and starved to death.

[Danny Danon]

I beg to differ with you about everything. And let's start with the.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This is your own people's.

[Danny Danon]

Let's start with the idea about Hamas. You know, I think every leader that spoke in the General assembly spoke about the day after without Hamas. Yes, even President Macron said it correct. And my question is, who exactly is going to remove Hamas? Hamas is not.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You've already.

[Danny Danon]

No, it's not true. Hamas is not listening to the decision of the General Assembly. They are not taking orders from the Elysee palace in Paris. The only way to get rid of Hamas is what we do and what we are doing. So the burden is on our shoulders. It's very easy to say Hamas will not be part of the equation, but it's up to us to complete the job. And we have accomplished a lot, but we haven't finished the job. You have areas today that Hamas is still in control. And if Israel today pull out of Gaza and allow Hamas to rebuild its power, it's a threat to Israel. And the Palestinians are doomed with the regime of Hamas.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The latest facts say that Israel has now controlled and does control 75% of Gaza. And again, that Hamas is, you know, not the major threat that it was and not the power that it was after October 7th. I want to ask you this, as we know, Trump did call for the. For the release. And everybody has. Everybody has called for the release of the remaining hostages, but that has only come so far. By negotiations and ceasefire. You've had a few successes in rescuing them, but equally, military attempts have led to deaths of hostages. Now, in the United States, in your most important ally, you are seeing public opinion plummet. And I've heard many of your main supporters here in the United States say this is a danger for Israel, that 9% of young Americans, only 9% support you. Currently, a recent YouGov economist poll says that 43% of Americans, Americans say Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Between 2018 and 21, the share of evangelicals, some of your biggest supporters under the age of 30 who backed you over the Palestinians, plunged from 69% to 34%. And an AP poll says 50% of Americans say the military response has gone too far. My question again is, when will you go into a day after negotiation to talk about the end of the world?

[Danny Danon]

Maybe you have a short memory, but I don't. I haven't forgotten what happened on October 1st.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Nor have I, sir.

[Danny Danon]

And I haven't forgotten the hostages.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Nor have I.

[Danny Danon]

With all due respect to all the leaders and the declarations, we have a commitment. The commitment is to bring the hostages back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Correct.

[Danny Danon]

We believe that if we will stop the war now, we will not get the hostages back and Hamas will stay in power. And actually, all the deals that you mentioned were brought because we used military power. Calls from the UN will not release the hostages. It's only the military and the might of the IDF that actually brought Hamas to a position to negotiate with us. And that's what we're going to. We're going to put more pressure. And I believe that we will bring Hamas to a position that will have to accept a deal that will release all the hostages and deliver the keys to somebody else. You know, and we heard many people speaking about allowing the Palestinians to rule in Gaza and a demand to give them the keys. We gave them the keys 20 years ago, exactly 20 years ago, Prime Minister Sharon handed the keys for Gaza to the Palestinians. He uprooted the Jewish communities, took out the military out of Gaza. And we told them, go build your future. Let's live together with coexistence. We are not going to be there. We even left the border with Egypt, and we left it to them. And we saw what happened. So we will not make that mistake again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Many people say the Prime Minister, shown with Jewish respect, pulled out hastily with no negotiations with the international community or with the Palestinian Authority and just basically left this place to them. Now you know what happened and I covered the elections and I know what happened since. But Israel has had control of that place ever since. And my question to you is now, what is your reaction going to be? Because to the recognition and to the other things, because we here, we know that Benjamin Netanyahu, your Prime minister, has slapped another siege on the west bank in the last few days, closing the last available in and out place into the west bank. That's the Alanbury Bridge, into Jordan. We hear some of your more extreme ministers, Ben gvir, Smotrich and the others, talk about zero ever Palestinian state. So does the Prime Minister. And the expulsion of all Palestinians. Can you tell me what is it? Is it the expulsion of all Palestinians? Is it trying to get them to voluntary leave? Is it besiege both the west bank and Gaza? What is it?

[Danny Danon]

No decision of the government of Israel about expelling anyone. That's a lie. The only thing that prime minister said that once he will come to the UN to speak here on Friday, meet President Trump on Monday, then he will come back to Israel and discuss what Israel should do following what we saw here at the un, this charade.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What do you think?

[Danny Danon]

I think what happens here, what do.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You think the reaction will be of your government?

[Danny Danon]

We'll get to that. But why? It's important because we believe in negotiations. We are a peaceful nation. We signed peace treaties with Egypt, with Jordan, with Morocco.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Egypt is now calling you the enemy.

[Danny Danon]

With the uae, with Bahrain. We are a peaceful nation. And also, by the way, we had negotiations with the Palestinians in the past. In that negotiations you have some key issues to discuss. The issue of statehood, borders, refugees, Jerusalem. What's happening here? This show they're trying to bypass direct negotiations. Basically, President Macron believes that he will come and recognize Palestinian state and it will happen tomorrow morning. It doesn't work that way in our region. You need both sides to sit and negotiate.

[Christiane Amanpour]

He talks about a ceasefire. All of them talk about the return of the hostages. They talk about phases. Nobody is ignoring what's important to you. But many Israelis, including hostage families, saying this is not the way to get.

[Danny Danon]

Hostages in the Middle east.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And they don't think that's your number one goal anymore.

[Danny Danon]

Peace in the Middle east will come from direct negotiations, not from UN resolutions or UN conferences. Regarding your question, I think there should be a response to what we saw, what happened here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what will that be?

[Danny Danon]

The government will have to sit down and discuss it. And there are different Ways you can enhance the Jewish community in Judea and Samaria.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That means more settlement.

[Danny Danon]

The E1 can take action against the PA which orchestrated this charade. You can show what we really think about President Macron and his initiative. You know what he said?

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's not just President Macron. It's a lot of allies. It's every member the permanent members of the Security Council. Except for the United States. This is a big thing. But I want to ask you, because you said that only direct negotiations will lead to peace, and yet I assume you supported or asked the President of the United States to deny the PA again, the only body that's legitimately recognized Israel and is recognized as the representatives of the Palestinian Authority. You've denied them visas. Mahmoud Abbas cannot come here. So how does that go to your.

[Danny Danon]

Well, it was a U.S. decision. I think it was the right decision. By the way, apparently it's a good.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Against the UN Charter.

[Danny Danon]

And I tell you why it was the right decision. Because, you know, people make the distinction between Hamas and the pa, but the pa, they continue to pay terrorists. They have the pay to slave policy. There was a terror attack in Jerusalem a few weeks ago. Six is very. Through a massacre, the pa, President Abbas will pay the families of the terrorists a monthly salary of $1,000 a month for life.

[Christiane Amanpour]

From what I. That is no longer the case.

[Danny Danon]

No, no, that's the case. And you can ask President Abbas next time you interview him. And he will tell you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I will. I'll ask his representative tomorrow.

[Danny Danon]

And they will tell you that for them, that's part of their ideology. And President Abbas said it in the General assembly last year when he came here. Even if it will be the last dollar he has, he will use it to pay for the families of the murders. That's how he called the terrorists.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me ask you question. Do you see the pictures? Okay, so we've just had the Foreign Minister of Brazil and he said he used the word vengeance this vengeance that Israel is taking after the terrible crimes of October 7th. And everybody knows that they were terrible crimes, but this vengeance gone overboard. Even President Biden, your strongest collaborator ally, came from the United States to Israel and. And said to the Prime Minister, don't do what we did in vengeance after 9 11. Don't do what we did because look where it ended.

[Danny Danon]

I'm looking at you and I'm telling you it's not a vengeance we want. And it can be over tomorrow morning once the hostages are released. Hamas give these weapons. You know, you remember what happened in Beirut when the PLO was deported to another country. It can be over in one day. But it will not be over with hostages in Gaza and Hamas in power in Gaza. And we want it to be over. You know, my father, my late father fought in Gaza. I myself served in Gaza. My son was in Gaza as an officer. We have no desire to be there. We don't want to send our boys to risk their lives. Every day we have Israeli casualties in Gaza. We want to pull out. But we will pull out when we know that we got the hostages back and that Hamas is out of the game.

[Christiane Amanpour]

As you know, President Biden and his Secretary of State told me as they were leaving his Secretary of State, that because of this war, even more Hamas are being recruited. Almost the same as you say, you're killing. And I guess in the end, I want to know whether for you and for the Israeli government, the death of so many children and women can ever be a justification. You're going after, you say Hamas. But the interim, the collateral damage, the horrible, what the. Civilian casualties are huge. And I wonder how Israel, which has suffered such horror in its past, will be able to get over this and answer to this. Because even now some of your reservists, they don't want to go. They're writing letters, they're saying that we've achieved our aims. We don't want to go to this. And so do your former defense and intelligence people.

[Adam Tooze]

They say it, strong nation.

[Danny Danon]

We regret the loss of lives of any civilians, but the blame is on Hamas, period. They started this war. We had a ceasefire before October 7. They came into our communities, kidnapped our babies, raped our women. Don't blame us for what we are doing. It's a war of self defense, not blaming. When the US attacked Osama bin Laden and there were casualties among civilians, no one blamed the us Same with many other wars. But we regret it. And I will tell you that we regret it. And I think we care more about the future of the Palestinians in Gaza than Hamas. We want to have a future for them, but there will be no future for them if Hamas will stay in power there.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think the question is, where does legitimate self defense begin and end anyway? You've answered the question and we will continue to watch it and we will invite you back on the program as the Israeli response becomes more apparent.

[Danny Danon]

I hope that we will do it after the hostages are back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I hope so too. And I hope you will let, on behalf of the global press, who has petitioned your government to allow us to go and to report on what's going on so we can see all sides of the story. Why do you keep us out?

[Danny Danon]

We want to keep you safe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We're war correspondents. We'll continue this conversation.

[Danny Danon]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you, Ambassador. And we'll be right back after this short break. Now, as we said in his lengthy speech here at the United nations today, President Trump repeated again and again how strong the US Economy is under his leadership. But does this reflect reality? The Federal Reserve is lowering interest rates in an effort to lift up the deteriorating US labor market, but it's the first time since December that it's taken any action. So how can the Fed become more responsive to the needs of democracy? In his latest New York Times essay, Adam Tooze is trying to answer that question by taking a deep dive into the American central banking system and exploring the challenges it faces today. He joins Walter Isaacson now to explain.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thank you, Chris. John and Adam Dews, welcome to the show.

[Adam Tooze]

Glad to be here.

[Walter Isaacson]

In a Supreme Court ruling this past May in which it allowed the president to dismiss a lot of employees from independent agencies, it had a carve out for the Federal Reserve and it said it was a uniquely structured quasi private entity with a distinct historic tradition. Explain that to me.

[Adam Tooze]

Yeah. This is an extraordinary fact that is true that this central agency of government, I think everyone generally when they follow the news, thinks of the Fed as a bona fide agency of the American state of the government, does indeed have origins in 19th century banking politics. And this makes it like other central banks. Central banks are banks to bankers and bankers are a very powerful lobby group. And from the late 19th century onwards, after years of dispute about this question, it was clear that America as it entered the 20th century was going to need a central bank. And this was a hugely controversial issue in Gilded Age America, with populists in the agrarian parts of the US Protesting and wanting easy money. And Wall street, which at the time was very remote from other parts of the US Anchoring itself on the global gold standard that was centered on London at the time.

[Walter Isaacson]

So that begins in 1913 with the Fed. And it's a time when William Jennings Bryan, running for president, is saying that we shouldn't be crucified on the cross of gold. They want easy money. They want, you know, they don't want. Is that why the Fed was started, so that the bankers could have a more stable currency?

[Adam Tooze]

It's a compromise. So de facto, the US after the Civil War was on the gold standard, which was punishingly austere to get back to the gold Standard after the US Civil War, there was a severe deflation. American federal government at the time is a tiny, tiny fraction of the American economy. So effectively it was tied to the British based gold system. And that's what provoked the populist backlash of the 1890s. Think of this in terms of negative equity. If you've got a mortgage on a property now, if you're in the suburbs, or then if you're a farmer and all of a sudden the price of everything starts falling, including the value of your property, you're in a pickle because you're basically going to end up in deeper and deeper negative equity. William Jennings Bryan's great run for the Democratic Party nomination, and then he's won for the presidency several times, was all about trying to loosen that cross of gold that was being pressed down. Now, from the point of view of Wall street, the moneyed interest there is a cause of huge panic. So what do you do? By 1913, under the stewardship of the very coolly progressive, Southern, quite aristocratic figure of Woodrow Wilson, you end up with a compromise. And it has elements of the Wall street banking interest and it has elements of populism. And a struggle then ensues and in a sense has never stopped over the last 110 years of what the Fed's priorities are and what it should give the centrality to. Should it be monetary stability, should it be connections to the wider world world. Or should it be the interests of America's domestic political economy, as diverse as those are. Right, so that's the kind of setup, and indeed we're still living in that argument, that ongoing argument.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, the current argument about the Fed really, it seems to begin in 1979 with Paul Volcker, where he really jacks up interest rates to fight inflation. And you have a two pronged system. You're trying to fight inflation, but you're trying to keep unemployment employment from going too far up. Tell me how that defines the Fed today.

[Adam Tooze]

I think I might roll it back another decade to the late 60s or indeed the 60s, and take people to the civil rights movement, because that's really where the debate about full employment takes center stage. The 60s are thought of as a period of big government, great society. We're all Keynesians now, we're doing the manipulation of the US economy. But America being a society of racialized inequality, the really cutting question, the canary in the gold mine, is blackmail, unemployment. And no one understood this better than the Martin Luther King wing of the civil rights movement. The March on Washington was a march for Votes and jobs. And so from the 60s onwards, there's an argument going on on the American left about what the priorities of economic policy should be. And those are written in the 70s, while the battle is still going on for the hearts and mind of American politics. The last really great struggle. Or into the Humphrey Hawkins Federal Reserve act, which gives it the dual mandate that you refer to only shortly thereafter for the Carter appointed hard money board of the Fed coming out of Wall street with Paul Volcker at the helm. We now think of him as a lovely centrist, cuddly grandpa, but in fact, he was a hard man of money to yank up interest rates, as you say, and fundamentally tilt America's political economy away from the American working class. Unemployment shoots up. There's an argument about how far Volcker himself intended this, but there are key moments in his various speeches where he makes pretty clear that he understands that breaking trade union power is key to shifting America's political economy. And just from a technocratic point of view, once you've done that, it's much easier to manage the inflation rate because you don't have the flywheels in American society that take a cost of living increase and say, right, I want a wage adjustment for that reason. Right. The big trade unions in the 70s are all about indexing. That's broken in the 70s by the Volcker shock. And so then we emerge in this new world of independent central banking with technocratic leadership by the 90s and the 2000s. Right. PhD in economics is the minimum qualification for this incredibly political job.

[Walter Isaacson]

In the New York Times opinion piece that you wrote recently, you said, when you're talking about President Trump trying to influence or overwhelm the Fed, you said we should start by thinking, what type of central bank do we want to have? Tell me what you mean by that.

[Adam Tooze]

Well, I take this as a particular instance of a more general dilemma of progressive people in the US Right now in the face of the Trump onslaught, which is is our first and primary reflex and indeed in some senses, duty and responsibility to just simply defend the status quo against this onslaught. Or does that condemn you to passivity and a lack of imagination and ultimately also a lack of ability to mobilize against Trump? Because one of the things that's energizing MAGA right now is they've unleashed the political imagination of their people. There's nothing they don't think they can do. And the problem with the defensive position that's been adopted, I think, by many people, not just in this area of central banking, but across the board is that it robs you of that opportunity to keep thinking, and that's what I'm appealing for us to do. But also, simply, not just on Metagrounds, but tactically thinking, think it through. Say Trump actually does manage to seize control of the Fed. When the moment comes where the Democrats take back control of Congress and maybe the White House, what's the agenda going to be? Are we going to simply restore the old Fed? Say we manage to stop him, say the courts actually block his effort. The concrete issue here is whether he can fire Lisa Cook, say they don't manage to fire her. Is the next move going to be to make it even harder to fire governors of the Federal Reserve?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, wait, what's your answer then? I mean, what should we be trying to do with a Fed?

[Adam Tooze]

What I think we should be trying to do is think about what we think a Democratic Fed would look like. A properly Democratic Fed.

[Walter Isaacson]

Democratic meaning responsive to the people, not.

[Adam Tooze]

To the Democratic Party, responsive and to their representatives. I think the real issue here is Congress. And right now, the Fed budget does not have any serious congressional oversight. There's a kind of ad hoc system which runs by the politicization of the appointment of Fed governors. But it's not actually a routine matter. And I think that Fed mandate that you alluded to, that was set in the 1970s, is something that could be periodically reviewed so as to discuss the question of whether we're, for instance, measuring unemployment rights, whether we're capturing the right things. And we know that Jerome Powell, for instance, his chairmanship and the board has been quite imaginative in doing this, but they've been doing it essentially on their own, say so. Right. So. So they've been looking increasingly at racial inequality in the American labor market as a highly sensitive indicator of macroeconomic change. That's great, but it doesn't necessarily have any political backing. And that, I think, is a weakness. You could say we just can't trust American democracy right now. Heaven forfend that we allow Congress to intrude more. But that's really a logic of defeatism. And that defeatism is what animated the technocrats in the 80s and 90s to say, you know, we shouldn't really trust politicians. You can see that right now in the arguments being made. You know, they're always just after the next election. That's the only thing on their mind. So really we should take all the important things away from them. And that's a condescension, really, that I actually don't think American politics for the much of the last decades has really merited and deserved. The current moment is no doubt a bad one. But a bad moment is not necessarily the right, right place to think strategically about our options going forward.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, you seem to be arguing then for a more democratic Fed, in other words, more responsive to politics. Well, then why isn't Trump, right? He got elected. Why can't he do what he wants with the Fed?

[Adam Tooze]

Because of the way he's doing it. Right. And the clear intentionality here to just cynically blow this up. The mechanisms that are being used, the assault essentially on the private finances of board members that are selected because they're vulnerable. This isn't an orderly, coherent, serious politics of money. This is the same old, same old maga. No holds barred assault. Precisely. I think so as to channel this actually very valuable and serious conversation into appropriate paths. There should be mechanisms for doing this in a more orderly fashion.

[Walter Isaacson]

But suppose there were a democratic push by the people through Trump to say, hey, lower interest rates. Is that something the Fed should resist or should it bow to the will of the people?

[Adam Tooze]

I mean, I don't see there's any problem with a politics of low interest rates being pushed. One of the effects of the sort of structural change that I am inviting, that we think about, inviting us to think about, is that it would force political parties to actually offer agendas on these kind of issues. Right. The point is not do I approve of Trump's particular policy politics or not. The point I'm trying to make is that reflex against Trump's toxic politics, we end up ruling out the possibility of a more serious argument about this issue. And I don't disagree with you. Yes, a politics of money and interest rate is native to American democracy. It goes all the way back to the 19th century. Read William Jennings Bryan speech and weep for the degenerate state of American political discourse in the 21st century. Because the range of sophisticated arguments he offers is extraordinary by modern standards. We've lost a lot of that, and I don't see how entrenching technocratic exclusivity on this issue is going to make things any better. I think in principle, what it probably does, as in so many other areas, is to breed a kind of irrational populism in the swamp that emerges beyond the bounds of the respectable discourse in the Fed.

[Walter Isaacson]

The proximate cause of this is the President's attempt to push Lease Lisa Cook off the board. You've served on a committee with her. Tell me about her.

[Adam Tooze]

She's a very, very, very sensible, dedicated economist. Policymaker I was on a committee that was involved with issues to do with green finance. Actually one of the zones of creative thinking about central banking that had a moment of opportunity between the Green New Deal in 2018 and the Biden administration running out of Stock Steam in 2023amongst the inflation panic. So that's the context in which I got to know her. And I was very gratified to see that she ultimately went through a grueling, a grueling, grueling, grueling confirmation process in the Senate in which she already suffered slanderous assaults on her professional record. This is the first black woman to be appointed to the board, it's worth saying, and as such, just rare, as rare as it can possibly be. The number of black women that choose to and are awarded Economics PhDs in the United States is scandalously low. So she's a precious person to have found her way or to be promoted onto the Fed board to ensure that diversity of standpoint and that expertise that's laser focused on issues of structural inequality and just bringing macroeconomic chops to that job. And so it's scandalous to see her attacked in this way.

[Walter Isaacson]

Do you think this country, the US is in a moment when it really could have have a sensible debate about monetary policy?

[Adam Tooze]

I honestly don't know. But I also feel that we need to weigh the cost of not posing the question. And what I see right now are an awful lot of folks saying, now's not the moment, please don't bring them up. Now's not the moment. Now's not the moment. Don't you understand how dangerous this is? And as I say, that forces us into a defensive position which coming from New York, with the prospect of Mamdani being, being elected as mayor, I think there is a part of American society which is answering in different terms. And I frankly couldn't have forgiven myself if I hadn't at this moment written a piece something like this. It's not because I'm necessarily the person appointed to do it, but I've been part of a decade long conversation about the politics of money. The question has been opened up by people I would recognize as my enemies. Do I at that moment say, oh no, no, no, we rally around the standard of technocratic independence. That's not a policy that we can responsibly advocate. And this is a blackmail that we're going to be continuously subject to. And it's not exclusive to the United States. It happens in large parts in Europe as well, where we're also seeing the rise of the far right, which is that argument. Zip it. Now's not the moment. That's a difficult question. Are you sure you want to bring that up? I find that actually quite unsettling even now coming from the left. I don't personally subscribe to that as a, a viable politics. It's a self mutilation essentially, right for fear of the struggle and the fight over these issues.

[Walter Isaacson]

Adam Tooze, thank you so much for joining us.

[Adam Tooze]

Thank you for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And that's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York and the United Nations. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Adam Tooze]

This is a new way of thinking about public health.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Dr. Thomas Frieden, his book, the Formula for Better Health. It's part history lesson, it's part memoir.

[Danny Danon]

And it's part blueprint.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And it can be boiled down to three words, See, believe, create.

[Adam Tooze]

It has saved millions of lives and it's even relevant for personal health.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now.

[Danny Danon]

Wherever you get your podcasts.