Can/Will Ukraine 'Make a deal' with Russia?

Summary

Amanpour — "Can/Will Ukraine 'Make a Deal' with Russia?"

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN Podcasts)
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Date: September 18, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Amanpour explores the current state of the war in Ukraine and the prospects of a negotiated settlement with Russia, featuring an exclusive interview with Rustem Umerov (Secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, former Defense Minister). The episode also covers reactions to increased political violence in the US, the role of media under political pressure in America, and debates about fertility access for US service members. Additional insights come from Annalina Baerbock (President of the UN General Assembly, former German Foreign Minister) and media analyst Brian Stelter, among others.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. State of Russia-Ukraine Negotiations

[03:38–15:13]

Background & Introduction

• Host Christiane Amanpour sets the stage, noting heightened attacks by Russia, renewed Western unity on Ukraine, and US President Trump's recent statements urging a “deal” between Kyiv and Moscow.

Interview: Rustem Umerov

• Are negotiations ongoing?

  • Umerov states Ukraine has attended multiple peace process meetings in Saudi Arabia, Paris, London, and Turkey. Currently, only humanitarian exchanges (prisoner releases) continue.
  • Quote: "At the moment, we continue the humanitarian part where we release and exchange prisoners of war." — Rustem Umerov [05:19]

• On President Trump’s position:

  • Amanpour questions if Trump is using full US leverage or stepping back.
  • Umerov credits Trump as uniquely able to end the war, but notes Russia shows “no commitment” to negotiations.
  • Quote: "President Trump is the only person who is able and capable to finish this war...there is no commitment from Russian side." — Rustem Umerov [07:17]

• Military and humanitarian situation:

  • Umerov describes a stepped-up Russian assault, including daily drone/missile attacks against civilians.
  • Confirms Ukraine is receiving more weapons, largely funded by Europe but sourced from the US, via new NATO mechanisms.
  • Russia, he says, has not achieved strategic objectives and Ukraine’s frontlines remain stable.
  • Quote: "We need, of course, more air defence, we need interceptor drones financing. But Russia is trying to increase the attacks per thousand attacks per day." — Rustem Umerov [09:01]

• On Russian aims and Ukrainian capability:

  • Despite Russian claims of territorial gain, Ukrainian forces have regained 50% of what Russia seized since 2022.
  • Ukraine is rebuilding its defense base (drones, EW, robotics), but needs partner support to match Russia’s resource advantage.
  • Suggests financial sanctions on Russian oil/gas are critical.
  • Quote: "There are instruments to stop them. There are opportunities available in our partners' hands to sanction them." — Rustem Umerov [12:15]

• Negotiations with Putin and sanctions:

  • Amanpour raises President Zelenskyy's offer for face-to-face talks and the lack of a response from Putin.
  • Umerov supports more aggressive sanctions on Russian oil/gas imports by Turkey, Hungary, Slovakia, emphasizing their responsibility to support peace.
  • Quote: "More they buy this oil and gas, more the war will continue. So if they are pro-peace, they have to stop it." — Rustem Umerov [14:36]

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2. The UN, Global Governance, and War

[16:05–26:49]

Interview: Annalina Baerbock (President, UNGA)

• Baerbock describes an “80-year-old UN under pressure,” facing global crises but still essential for food aid, children’s education, and conflict mediation.
• Criticizes political will and P5 Security Council inaction as main obstacles to conflict resolution.
  • Quote: "It's the political will of the international community...for the purpose of peace and security, unfortunately, we are not moving forward." — Annalina Baerbock [19:04]
• Defends her pro-Ukraine stance and UN resolutions demanding Russian withdrawal from Ukraine.
• On the US restricting Palestinian officials' visas for the UN: Baerbock insists the UN will arrange alternative remote addresses if needed.
  • Quote: "You are not allowed to invade your neighbor, that you have to respect the territorial borders, but also that human rights are universal." — Annalina Baerbock [22:33]

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3. US Media, Free Speech, and Political Pressure

[26:56–37:58]

Case Study: Jimmy Kimmel Show Pulled

• Brian Stelter explains how Disney/ABC pulled the Jimmy Kimmel show after political pressure from the Trump administration and FCC Chairman Brendan Carr due to Kimmel's commentary on Charlie Kirk’s assassination.
• Highlights how media companies’ business entanglements and dependence on government favors stifle dissent and chill free speech.
  • Quote: "What we are seeing happen in the US: station owners try to curry favor with the Trump administration by condemning Kimmel, announcing they're not going to air the show." — Brian Stelter [28:25]
• Stelter connects these tactics to “authoritarian playbook” strategies seen in Turkey and Hungary: government weaponizes regulatory power, punishes dissenting media, rewards compliant outlets.
  • Quote: "Weaponize levers of government for partisan purposes. Pressure privately owned media companies to toe the party line, punish the owners who resist and reward the ones who acquiesce. That's what we've seen from Viktor Orban in Hungary. It's what we're seeing right now from President Trump in the US." — Brian Stelter [36:54]

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4. US Politics, Fertility Access, and Political Violence

[38:52–54:09]

Interview: Rep. Sarah Jacobs (D-CA)

• Atmosphere in Congress: Post-Charlie Kirk assassination, parallels drawn to post-January 6th environment—distrust, tension, and concerns about safety.
  • Quote: "There's a lot of concern around safety for members, for our staff, and just a lot of vitriol being thrown around." — Rep. Sarah Jacobs [39:31]
• Combatting Political Violence: Jacobs emphasizes the need for bipartisan denouncement of violence, rejecting framing that blames only one side.
  • Quote: "We are all Americans and we should all be Americans first...we settle our differences through elections, not through violence." — Rep. Sarah Jacobs [42:53]
• Fertility Coverage for Service Members: Jacobs' recent bill expands military health care to cover fertility treatments (IVF, egg freezing), arguing it’s pro-readiness, pro-family, and a model for broader health policy.
  • Quote: "We're asking [service members] to be far away from their loved ones and do really dangerous things in their prime reproductive years." — Rep. Sarah Jacobs [43:44]
  • Personalizes the issue, sharing her own experience with egg freezing.
• Broader issues: Discusses quality of life for service members; connects fertility, abortion rights, and family care to military effectiveness.
• Nuanced stance on Israel/Gaza: Jacobs, as the youngest Jewish member of Congress with family in both Israel and San Diego, seeks a centrist path in a polarized debate.
  • Quote: "I actually think that my position is what the majority of Americans feel...that Israel has a right to defend itself. But also what we're seeing in Gaza right now is horrific." — Rep. Sarah Jacobs [50:54]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ukrainian Resolve:
  "Our capabilities are far bigger than our financial ability to finance them...There are instruments to stop them. There are opportunities available in our partners' hands to sanction them."
  — Rustem Umerov, on sanctions and defense innovation [12:15]

• UN at a Crossroads:
  "We need this irreversible pathway towards a two-state solution. We need a ceasefire now. We need humanitarian access and the release of all hostages."
  — Annalina Baerbock, on Gaza and the UN's role [24:40]

• Media Under Threat:
  "It is clear President Trump wants to squash dissent in the U.S., he wants to silence critics, and he's very clearly going after late night comics entertainers as one of those areas."
  — Brian Stelter [30:55]

• Warning on Rights:
  "You either have to use your rights or you're gonna lose your rights."
  — Brian Stelter, paraphrasing Edward R. Murrow [37:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ukraine–Russia Negotiations & War Update: 03:38–15:13
• UN General Assembly, Gaza, Global Governance: 16:05–26:49
• Free Speech, Media, the Kimmel Affair: 26:56–37:58
• Political Violence, Fertility Bill (Sarah Jacobs): 38:52–54:09

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is urgent and serious, reflecting on war, diplomacy, political violence, and democratic backsliding. Amanpour and guests maintain a sober, probing, and at times passionate tone. Listeners come away with a sobering understanding of Ukraine's precarious situation, the fragility of international norms, rising government-media tensions in the US, and efforts to find common ground in a polarized political landscape.

Transcript

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[Christian Amanpour]

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Putin let me down. Those words from President Trump on day two of his UK State visit. Former Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov joins me from Kyiv. And from Ukraine to Gaza. Palestinians flee Israel's new air and ground invasion of Gaza City. I speak to the new President of the United Nations General Assembly, Annalina Baerbob. Plus why Jimmy Kimmel's late night show got pulled off the air. Media analyst Brian Stelter on the latest battle over free speech. Also ahead, the cost of ivf. Democratic Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs tells Michelle Martin how fertility treatments could be more affordable. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christian Amanpour in London. He came, he saw, he was feted and then declared an unbreakable bond with Britain after the government and royal family did all they could to court President Donald Trump, putting on lavish pageantry firmly behind castle walls, shielding the president from the British people and anyone who might protest. Today, it was down to business, not least Russia's war on Ukraine. Take a listen. In recent days, Putin has shown his true face, mounting the biggest attack since the invasion began, with yet more bloodshed, yet more innocents killed, and unprecedented violations of NATO airspace. These are not the actions of someone who wants peace. The president struck a slightly different tone from the prime minister, but agreed the war must end.

It doesn't affect the United States. And he. Look, it doesn't so much affect you, of course.

You are a lot closer to the.

Scene than we are. We have a whole ocean separating us. But I will say this, it's. Millions of people have died in that war, millions of souls. And they're not American, they're soldiers, mostly soldiers. As you know, the soldiers are being killed at levels nobody's seen since the Second World War, but they're being. They're being killed, and I feel I have an obligation to get it settled for that reason.

Seated next to the king the night before, Trump got the same message stamped with the Royal Seal. Today, as tyranny once again threatens Europe, we and our allies stand together in support of Ukraine to deter aggression and secure peace. Ahead of this trip, President Trump alarmed many allies after he again asserted that Zelenskyy is going to have to make a deal with Russia. This despite the fact the Ukrainian president has embraced every US Proposal for an immediate ceasefire, while Russia has not now was Ukraine's defense Minister until earlier this year, and he's now the secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, which is leading negotiations with Russia. He's joining me from Kyiv for an exclusive interview. Welcome to the program. In your new role, I said you're leading negotiations. Are there any negotiations, anything meaningful going on between Russia and Ukraine over ending the war?

[Rustem Umerov]

Christian, we supported Ukraine, supported President Trump initiative for a peace process. We have met two times in Saudi Arabia. We have met two times in Europe in Paris and London, and we have participated in three meetings in Turkey. At the moment, we continue the humanitarian part where we release and exchange prisons of war. On the other side, as you know, the European leaders, along with President Zelensky, visited Washington and there was agreement that the trilateral and bilateral meetings will be done upon Washington visit. So at this stage, I think we are waiting when the trilateral and bilateral meetings will be done.

[Christian Amanpour]

Okay. So it sounds very formal, but it seems to be the result is no real well, no negotiations to end the war and to implement a ceasefire between you. Can I just play what President Trump says about President Putin now today here in the uk this is what he just said.

The one that I thought would be.

Easiest would be because of my relationship.

With President Putin, but he's let me down.

He's really let me down.

Was going to be Russia and Ukraine, but we'll see how that turns out.

You know, he said that he expected his direct diplomacy with President Putin, his relationship with Putin from his first time in office, would help him end this war. But clearly it hasn't happened. From that conversation or that little bit of the press conference, do you think President Trump is committed to using all American leverage, or do you feel like he's essentially throwing in the towel a bit and leaving it up to you all and Europe?

[Rustem Umerov]

I think President Trump is the only person who is able and capable to finish this war. At this stage, Russia lets him down and there is no commitment from Russian side to continue these negotiations. We, as I already mentioned, we support the initiative and I think this war needs to end at this stage. All the European allies, along with the US are supportive of this idea. Ukraine spoken out that it needs guarantees, it needs strong Ukrainian armed forces, it needs coalition of the willing to be besides it, it needs US support. And I think at this stage, we've done our part of the deal with the US And European allies. I think now the turn is on Russian side.

[Christian Amanpour]

So I want to ask you, you're feeling it. I know in Ukraine and certainly NATO allies are feeling it. There's a huge step up, in fact, since the Alaska summit, when Putin visited President Trump in the United States, of attacks all over Ukraine, including on civilians and civilian infrastructure, not to mention incursions by Russia into NATO airsp. So you're also just receiving the first tranche of, you know, weapons agreed to under the Trump administration that actually the Europeans are buying from America to send to you. Give me the state of what Russia is pummeling you with and do you think you're getting the weapons now to help defend?

[Rustem Umerov]

After our last committing, Russia increased their attacks to Ukraine, and it is combining attacks with cruise ballistic missiles, including the kamikaze drones. We are thankful to United States for their support. We are thankful to European allies that are financing this support so they continue their security assistance. And in addition, NATO has provided a new mechanism through the Pearl program to finance the US arms that will be sent to Ukraine. We need, of course, more air defence, we need interceptor drones financing. But Russia is Trying to increase the attacks per thousand attacks per day. So by the end of the year I think they will be expanding it. And it shows that there is no big intention from Russia to end this war.

[Christian Amanpour]

Do you think Russia has the intention to do something major, to try to flip the balance and try to say that they've won this war by the end of this year? And together with that, how much land territory are they taking now in a regular way?

[Rustem Umerov]

So let's say that, let's remind everybody that the war started in 2014 and the full scale invasion started in 2022. By today, Russia did not obtain any strategic objectives and they are stopped. We have stabilized the situation. Our strategy is not to allow them to maneuver. Even though their media is saying that they are progressive. They are stopped. We stopped them in northern direction in Sumy. They wanted to make the incursion, we stopped them. Then they maneuvered in Zaporizhzhia and Pokrovsk area where we stopped them as well. At this stage we are doing maximum. The line is stabilized, we protect the skies, but they continue to assault. And that's why we need the partner support. We need U.S. support. And we are thankful for what they're doing for us with the security assistance, with their diplomatic initiatives to end this war.

[Christian Amanpour]

So we've been reporting. Well, I've been reporting that some very key intelligence assessments here in the uk, Defense Intelligence and other intelligence say that, you know, at this rate it would take something like five years for Russia to get all of Donbas in offensives. A, do you agree with that assessment? And B, what can you tell us about your own troop levels? Because we know that there's only a finite number. And tell me a little bit more about what if you are building your own, you know, expanding your own military production. Sure.

[Rustem Umerov]

From the beginning of the full scale invasion. I would like to remind that Ukrainian defence forces regained 50% of what has been captured from the first days of full scale invasion. And that's why we are holding them. We're not allowing them to maneuver. They are not getting any strategic objectives. At the same time we managed to rebuild our defence industrial base. We introduced drones, electronic warfare, robotic systems and our military technology is developing. Our capabilities are far bigger than our financial ability to finance them. But at this stage they're learning from us. Unfortunately they have the financial resources because they are oil and gas being bought and we have to limit it. So there are instruments to stop them. There are opportunities available in our partners hands to sanction them. So that's why we have to introduce new instruments, how to stop them until they come and sit and negotiate with us.

[Christian Amanpour]

So this week President Zelenskyy said that he is, quote, ready to meet Russian President Putin for face to face negotiations. As yet, that's not been accepted by Putin, although the Kremlin spokesperson said Russia is open for negotiat and hopes to settle the war diplomatically. You just mentioned punitive measures. As you know, President Trump has said in addition to Putin has let me down. He's expressed anger and frustration and impatience with Putin over the nine months of his administration. But he's also put the onus for imposing more U.S. sanctions onto the Europeans and other members like Turkey, Hungary, you know, Slovakia, for buying Russian oil and gas. Do you think he's right? Should these countries stop that before Trump puts sanctions on Russia?

[Rustem Umerov]

I think President Trump initiative should be supported. All of these countries have great relations with President Trump and we have to signal the world that more they buy this oil and gas, more the war will continue. So if they are pro peace, they have to stop it and they need to support President Trump's initiative. At this stage, we can limit the inflow of money to Russia to continue this war. So I think the countries should support this initiative.

[Christian Amanpour]

All right, Secretary Ruste Momerov, thank you so much for joining us from Kyiv. And stay with us because we'll be right back after the break.

[Sarah Jacobs]

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service.

[Annalina Baerbock]

The primary goal of education and for.

[Sarah Jacobs]

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[Michelle Martin]

What we do in the classroom has to be on the forefront of what's.

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[Michelle Martin]

Otherwise our students aren't going to go.

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Out into the world and be prepared for that workforce. Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christian Amanpour]

When it comes to Gaza, Donald Trump and Keir Starmer beg to differ. The UK Plans to recognize a Palestinian state next week. Take a listen. We absolutely agree on the need for peace and a roadmap because the situation in Gaza is intolerable. The hostages have been held for a very, very long time and they must be freed. And we need aid to get into Gaza at speed. And so it's within that context of.

[Rustem Umerov]

A plan for peace which we're working.

[Christian Amanpour]

Hard on, which not only did we discuss this morning, but our two Teams have been working together on that.

[Rustem Umerov]

The question of recognition needs to be.

[Christian Amanpour]

Seen, and that will happen along with a number of other countries around the annual United Nations General Assembly. Meanwhile, Israel is continuing its ground offensive into Gaza City. Yet more blood will be shed even as the death toll of the war passes 65,000, according to authorities there. Yet more time, the surviving hostages will remain in captivity. In years gone by, the gathering of world leaders at the UN might have been an opportunity to negotiate an end to conflic. But this year, the UN looks more divided than ever. Annelina Baerbock was sworn in last week as the new President of the UN General Assembly. She was Foreign Minister of Germany until earlier this year. And she joined me from New York to discuss the challenges for leaders next week. Madam President of the General assembly, welcome to the program.

[Annalina Baerbock]

Thanks for having me again and congratulations.

[Christian Amanpour]

One of the rare women who've been elected and appointed to this position. But let me first ask you now, in your opening remarks, you said this is no ordinary session, the one that gets underway with the top world leaders next week. What do you mean by that?

[Annalina Baerbock]

Well, in a normal world, we would really celebrate next week because our United Nation turns 80 years old. This is a life span. But if we look around the world from Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, climate crisis hitting everywhere, we are not really in a celebrating mood. We need institution which brings together the world to solve problems more than ever. But at the same time, this institution is under heavy pressure, financially and politically. So this is a moment to reflect again why in the darkest hours of history this institution was built and how we can preserve it, but also reform it to make it fit for the future, fit for the 21st century.

[Christian Amanpour]

So tell me then, the institution, you said in general is not really doing what it's was born to do. Given the wars that are raging right now, why do you think? Is it the leadership structure? What do you think it is?

[Annalina Baerbock]

It's the political will of the international community. And thanks for asking this question because there are some people out there saying so obviously we don't need this institution anymore. But the world would be in no way better off without the UN because the UN is not only the Security Council, where we see often a blockage which causes many, many problems to not forward on peace and security. But the UN is also UNICEF, the Organization for Children. Without UNICEF, for example, 100 million children couldn't go to school last year. Without the world food program, 125 million people would have literally starved because they wouldn't have received food. So there are every day big successes of the international community. But at the same time, we see that for the purpose of peace and security. Unfortunately, unfortunately, we are not moving forward. And this is why there is a reform underway, also making clear that the General assembly, which represents the 193 member states, should take more responsibility in this area.

[Christian Amanpour]

So when you talk about leadership, here's what Russia said about your appointment. The Deputy Ambassador to the UN said in May, Ms. Baerbock has repeatedly proved her incompetence, extreme bias and lack of understanding of the basic principles of diplomacy. Now, this is about, you know, your valid and NATO and the EU's and the U.S. you know, pushback on Russia's invasion and its interference. In the interim, Russia has further tested the west by incurring drones into NATO airspace. Two countries, Poland and Romania, interfering in elections, all of that kind of stuff. How do you react to what the Russian deputy ambassador said? And why do you think they keep pushing the envelope instead of being told to get back in their box?

[Annalina Baerbock]

The Charter of the United nations is very clear that the invasion of another country, breaching the sovereign right of another country is a dear violation of international law. And therefore the General Assembly I'm representing has been crystal clear in many resolutions that the sovereignty of Ukraine is the right to Ukraine, like any other nation in the world, and that the invasion, the full scale invasion has to end. And it calls on all actors in the world, it calls on Russia to end this invasion and to get into a dialogue on peace.

[Christian Amanpour]

You are in this position now. You were Germany's foreign minister at the time of the full scale invasion and you were very vocal on behalf of your country, on behalf of NATO, on behalf of Ukraine, on behalf of the European leader about precisely that, the need to defend the sovereignty and the basic rules of the which is you don't invade a neighboring sovereign state, you don't invade your neighbor. Do you think, as many are now saying, that nine months into office, President Trump, who wields as the United States the largest amount of leverage over Ukraine or even over Israel, is standing by as an observer more than an actual actor using his leverage. In other words, without the leverage and the full commitment of the United States, do you think it's possible to, to get the UN to meet its obligations?

[Annalina Baerbock]

It's not my position to comment on individual states. It's to bring forward the principles of the United nations and our Charter. And the Charter is also clear on the responsibilities, especially of the P5 members. So the permanent members of the Security Council, they do not only have rights like a veto rights, but they also do have a responsibility for peace and security. This is why they do have the special rights in the Security Council. And this is why there has been such a frustration over the last decades, but also lately by many, many other countries who are not part of the Security Council or non permanent members, that these responsibilities of the P5 members are obviously not being delivered. And therefore the General assembly has taken also their responsibility after and has said if there's a veto in the Security Council, we will transform it to the General Assembly. Almost every country in the world has a bigger neighbor. So no country in the world could sleep in silence, actually not even the biggest superpowers if we wouldn't have our Charter anymore, if we would lose these basic rules that you are not allowed to invade your neighbor, that you have to respect the territorial borders, but also that human rights are universal.

[Christian Amanpour]

Mm, let me ask you about Gaza because obviously the UN is very, very involved. As you well know, many nations, including Europeans and others, are about to recognize Palestine as a state, a Palestinian state at the un. But the US has denied visas for the Palestinian Authority President, the internationally and Israeli recognized President of the Palestinian authority, Abbas and 80 other Palestinian officials. Now there is a vote this week, tomorrow on letting Abbas address the assembly by satellite or remotely zoom or whatever you want to say. Will you as President of the assembly vote or agree to allow that to happen?

[Annalina Baerbock]

Well, first of all, let me say the situation in Gaza is unacceptable. And we have seen that there's very rare moments where we did have a short ceasefire. This was not only a relief moment for the people suffering in Gaza, that medicine, food could come in, but this was also the moment when hostages, Israeli hostages could be freed and were brought back to their families. So it's crystal clear this long standing conflict between Israel and Gaza cannot be ended by war, neither by occupation, not by terror. And therefore the Declaration of New York is so clear. We need this irreversible pathway towards a two state solution. We need a ceasefire now. We need humanitarian access and the release of all hostages. And therefore the General assembly has also made very, very clear that this topic has to be addressed at the General Assembly. This is why we have the United nations, that in the darkest hours we come together so we have this two states solution conference. And yes, it's a responsibility of the host country to allow members, to allow actors of the international community to come to our United nations in these moments we have to bring together the different act. So it's an obligation to grant visas but the General assembly has also prepared, if this violation of the obligation is taking place, to enable an alternative, if the host country is not following what they actually should, to allow also Abbas to come to New York.

[Christian Amanpour]

Okay, so out of all of that, I think I get your message what you're trying to say, but can you tell me yes or no? So if he cannot come, will he address in some other way?

[Annalina Baerbock]

We are making sure that there is a way to address, but as you said, the vote is tomorrow, so you shouldn't take a head vote. But there are preparations ongoing because it's the purpose of the United nations to hear in this kind of situation all the voices which have to be heard.

[Christian Amanpour]

President of the unga, Annalina Baerbock. Thank you very much.

[Michelle Martin]

Thank you very much.

[Annalina Baerbock]

Thanks a lot.

[Michelle Martin]

All the best.

[Christian Amanpour]

Now in the United States, a pressure campaign is mounting on the country's broadcasters. Disney is pulling Jimmy Kimmel's late night show off its ABC airwaves indefinitely. The decision was made over the comedian's remarks on Monday about Charlie Kirk's assassination. Here's what he said. We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of.

[Michelle Martin]

Them and doing everything they can to.

[Christian Amanpour]

Score political points from it. ABC came under huge pressure from the Trump administration. The powerful holder of TV licenses, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr had said, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. This all raises fears about free speech in America and the relationship between the administration and and media corporations. Journalist Brian Stelter has been following these developments closely and he's joining me now to explain what's happening. Brian, thanks for being with us. You are a very well known and well informed media analyst and you've written a lot about this, including with your book Network of Lies. So first and foremost, who took this decision to pull Jimmy Kimmel? And I would just simply like to say, like so many have done, it was certainly an off color remark in the wake of this assassination, which is being deemed, you know, a political assassination I think as well.

It was, yes, Jimmy Kimmel's observation about the political environment in the wake of that assassination. Kimmel's certainly not the only figure to make a similar observation, although he was criticized pretty harshly beginning on Tuesday by some conservative websites and pro Trump TV shows. Then on Wednesday, the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr decided to wade into this. He decided to appear on a right wing podcast and make a very overt threat to Disney by saying that Kimmel might It might be appropriate to suspend Kimmel and that that doesn't happen, maybe stations will have to take other steps. Brendan Carr essentially very loudly pointed out that the FCC has power over local stations that are affiliated with ABC all across the country. And most of those stations Cristiano on are not owned by ABC's parent company, Disney. They're owned by other companies that have their own business pending before the Trump administration. Companies like nexstar and Sinclair need Trump administration approval for mergers and other deals that they would like to pursue. So what we are seeing happen in the US Are these station owners try to curry favor with the Trump administration by condemning Kimmel, announcing they're not going to air the show. And that is what led ABC as a network to yank the show nationwide. This was ultimately a move by Disney, by the CEO Bob Iger. But it came under tremendous pressure, both political pressure from the Trump administration and business pressure from those station owners. And that's why Kimmel is now in this very strange limbo situation.

Look, you know that President Trump tweeted about it late night London time, UK time, from within the castle walls at Windsor, either before or during or after the state banquet. He basically said it was great news for America. The ratings challenged. Jimmy Kimmel show is canceled. Congratulations to abc, et cetera, et cetera. Kimmel has zero talent, worse ratings than even Colbert. That leaves Jimmy and Seth two total losers on fake news NBC and he's calling do it NBC President DJT so let's face it, Brendan Carr as well as others in this administration have written key parts of the Project 2025 which laid out a roadmap for Trump 2.0. Is it surprising then?

That's right.

That he would use all this power to bring people in line according to their line and the line they hold. And if that's the case, what does that mean for all of us?

Well, you know, one of those lines that Brendan Carr wrote In that Project 2025 manifesto was quote, the FCC should promote freedom of speech. So when Carr was in the minority, when he was one of the lonely Republican commissioners at the Democratic controlled fcc, he was of course advocating freedom of speech. But now that he has the power and now that he knows what President Trump wants from him, he is acting very differently. And yes, there's a lot of hypocrisy on display in this story this week. It is clear President Trump wants to squash dissent in the U.S. he wants to silence critics, and he's very clearly going after late night comics entertainers as one of those areas. This has created a real chill in Hollywood and across the entertainment industry. But, you know, fear is contagious and so is hope and optimism. So I don't think fear is the only appropriate response in a moment like this. This. It's also important to see solidarity and acts of free speech from other comedians, from other stars. And we are seeing some of that today. We have seen unions and musicians and comedians speaking out, free speech groups, free expression groups. There is now a lot of noise, a lot of criticism of abc and we don't know yet how this is going to play out and whether the Kimmel show will ever come back on the air.

And meantime, you pointed out, you know, FCC chairman had talked about free speech, etc. But so also did President Trump. One of his first, if not one of the, if not the first executive tranche called for, you know, free speech and ending any censorship. Censorship. So it is basically, you know, one person's censorship is another person's, et cetera. But you've laid out, you know, the desire to control criticism and keep toe the party line. But what about the other thing that's super cynical and that appears to be the business imperative or, you know, abc, Disney had settled with the president on a defamation suit. Remember, they paid, I think something like 16 million. Then you had CBS settling all of this because of all this consolidation and dependence on government for various, you know, media contracts and the business environment. Tell us where that's going to lead.

In many ways, we see right now, now we see kind of a clash between First Amendment rights and business interests. And oftentimes the corporate interests win out when those clashes occur. You're right to point out that Disney arguably began this cycle of media capitulation by settling with Trump last December. That made it a lot easier for Paramount, the parent of cbs, to settle with Trump over the summer with a similar payout to Trump's future presidential library. Again, these things are contagious. So as we see this kind of capitulation, we also see energy from reviewers, from listeners who are frustrated, who are aggravated about it. Lots of people today saying they might cancel their Disney plus subscriptions, for example. So we know the reaction and we don't yet know the counter reaction. But I think it is clear, Christiane, we're experiencing a profound free speech test in the United States. This is a stress test and we don't know what the results are going to be. We know what Trump wants. We know that his view of free speech is really about power and he is exerting his Power to every possible limit. We have seen some media companies stand up, like the New York Times, which was sued this week. The Times says it's going to fight that lawsuit. Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal has said the same thing. But these other media companies have settled and tried to make Trump go away. I can tell you he's not going away. This is going to continue to be a threat to media companies. And if these old fashioned mainstream news brands and entertainment companies don't stand up to Trump, then stars and comedians and journalists are going to ultimately leave and they're going to go set up shop elsewhere and launch startups and create new substacks and YouTube channels. And I do wonder, that's going to be one of the outcomes here in this Kimmel case.

That's really interesting. And look, you know, without beating, you know, you know, a dead horse here in terms of this authoritarian playbook, it does come straight out of a lot of stuff I've covered. You know, a few years ago, I interviewed President Erdogan of Turkey, and he was in the process of getting really angry and potentially taking legal action against a German Internet comedian who did launch a pretty, you know, diatribe against him. And this is what I asked him. Why do you care? Why is it so important for you to make a big deal about this? And doesn't it show that you have a very, very thin skin and that actually by making a big deal about this, people know about it, whereas people may not have known about it if you hadn't bothered with it at all? Well, I must put it in very frank terms. We shouldn't confuse criticism with insult and.

Defamation, whether it be satire or not.

Everything has to have boundaries. We have laws in place and laws.

Allow you to have freedom to the extent defined by law. And of course, it's my natural right.

To seek out for my own rights through my lawyers and through my solicitors, I can do this. Brian, this is really important. When I heard what J.D. vance and Stephen Miller said on the, you know, when they took over and filled in for the late Charlie Kirk on his podcast, this is what Stephen Miller said about this. Very similar to what, to what Erdogan told me years ago. Just take a listen.

[Rustem Umerov]

It is a vast domestic terror movement. We are going to use every resource.

[Christian Amanpour]

We have at the Department of Justice.

[Rustem Umerov]

Homeland Security and throughout this government to identify, disrupt, dismantle and destroy these networks and make America safe again for the American people.

[Christian Amanpour]

He means, he means by networks, what they call radical left wing networks. But he used the Word terror. This is very much like what foreign authoritarians do.

To borrow from the late Edward R. Murrow, those men are confusing dissent with disloyalty. They are confusing dissent for something much more disturbing. Obviously, in these cases, if there are people that are plotting acts of violence, there are government agencies and authorities that are equipped to handle that. But we have not seen evidence for the charges that Miller and others have laid out in the Trump administration. I understand they feel compelled to action, a desire to take action in the wake of their friend's murder. That's understandable. But in this country, First Amendment rights are so sacrosanct, and we are seeing the arguments about them now play out in real time. The authoritarian playbook, as you mentioned in Turkey, in Hungary as well, is very clear. Weaponize levers of government for partisan purposes. Pressure privately owned media companies to toe the party line, punish the owners who resist and rewards the one who acquiesce. That's what we've seen from Viktor Orban in Hungary. It's what we're seeing right now from President Trump in the US and it reminds me of that old line, Christiane, you either have to use your rights or you're gonna lose your rights.

Yep.

I think in the press in the United States, we better use them in case we don't lose them.

Well, this is a very timely, you know, warning from you, and, yes, we do. We'll be right back after this break. Thank you, Brian. And now to a deeply personal struggle that affects millions of people around the world, that is infertility in America. One of Trump's campaign promises was to make fertility treatments more affordable for Americans, but little has been delivered. One young Democratic representative, Sarah Jacobs of California, is now leading the push to expand coverage of procedures. Michelle Martin asked her why she's focusing her initial efforts on providing this for US Service members.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Christiane. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Thanks for having me.

[Michelle Martin]

I do want to focus on your bill. Provisions that were in the defense bill that just passed. But before we get to that, what's the atmosphere on the Hill? It's just been a very, look, tumultuous, doesn't really capture it, but it's been a really difficult couple of days. We're talking in the wake of the murder of the, you know, controversial conservative activist Charlie Kirk that stimulated, you know, some feelings, you know, in a lot of different institutions. And I just wanted to like, what's the atmosphere on the Hill right now?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, I'll be honest, it's really tense here. I have been here for five years now, which means my first week in office was January 6th 6th, 2020. One feels very similar to the time right after that where members are distrustful of other members and their intentions. There's a lot of concern around safety for members, for our staff, and just a lot of vitriol being thrown around, you know, censures being traded. And, you know, it's. It's a really difficult time to be here. And obviously that echoes the difficulty that the country is feeling right now.

[Michelle Martin]

I'm GLAD you mentioned January 6, because, you know, one of the issues right now is political violence. That's obvious. I mean, it's obvious that Mr. Kirk was targeted because of public statements that he's made and that, you know, he was obviously a very kind of admired and even loved figure in some quarters, but in other, people found him insensitive, not polarizing. He doesn't even really capture that. Insensitive. Some people found his comments kind of racist, racist, sexist, et cetera. January 6th, this was an instance of political violence. I understand that people on the, I will say liberal slash progressive slash Democratic side feel aggrieved right now, that there doesn't seem to be an appreciation of how traumatic that was for people. And I'm just wondering, how do you navigate this going forward?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, I mean, it's really difficult. Right. I was in the house gallery on January 6, trapped, literally introducing myself to my new colleagues while hiding under a chair.

[Christian Amanpour]

Oh.

[Sarah Jacobs]

And it was really scary. And my background is in actually working in post conflict transitions in political violence at the State Department and the UN and so I know one of the most important things we need in this moment is leadership to step up and say that violence is not okay. We can disagree, but we should never use violence as a tool to settle our political disagreements. And unfortunately, this. That's not what we're seeing right now. And you know, January 6th, but also, you know, Melissa Hortman in Minnesota. Right. This is an issue that's touched both sides. And it shouldn't be that hard for all of us to come together and say that in this country, we decide our political disagreements through the ballot box, not through the barrel of a gun, but the.

[Michelle Martin]

But the administration. And just as the last question I have about this, the administration, the president, the vice president, a number of other conservative activists have been determined to make the argument that this is a problem of what they call the radical left. In the President's first public remarks about this, he didn't even mention the Minnesota lawmakers who were gunned down in their own home along with their spouses. You know, one couple fatally, the other couple grievously wounded, but, you know, survived. Didn't mention them. Didn't mention any of the Democrats who have been targets of political violence. And so given an environment like that where you have the top political leadership of the country very determined to lay the blame at one side or the other, I just wonder how you, as a Democrat who's not part of that group, how do, how do you face this moment without sort of feeding into the vitriol and this kind of pointing fingers?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, look, the data does not bear out what President Trump said. Right. This is an issue that is happening to people on both sides of the aisle. And we are all Americans and we should all be Americans first. And one of the core principles of our country is that we settle our differences through elections, not through violence.

[Michelle Martin]

So let's move on to a bill that some provisions of the bill that you just got passed, the annual defense bill, the House just passed the annual defense bill. You have provisions to expand fertility coverage for military families, requiring the US Military's health care program to cover treatments like IVF and egg freezing. So first of all, why did you, you consider this necessary? And why was this defense policy bill the right place to advance this legislation?

[Sarah Jacobs]

So we know that military families face higher levels of infertility than your average population. And it makes sense. Right? We're asking them to be far away from their loved ones and do really dangerous things in their prime reproductive years. Right now, under Tricare, the military insurance program, they can only get fertility treatments covered if they can prove a service connection to their infertility with which is really hard to do. And so I've heard from so many service members who basically were faced with three choices like forego building a family, pay tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket in order to do it, or leave the military to get a job in the private sector that has health insurance that covers this kind of treatment. And those are not three great options. And you know, I am a 36 year old woman, so these are the things I talk about with my friends all the time. I froze my eggs, I'm in the process, actually another round of freezing my eggs right now. And in talking publicly about that, I actually heard from service members who told me they wish they could do the same thing, but it wasn't available to them. And so, you know, I think everyone should have access to the full range of fertility treatments covered by their insurance. But I think Our military community is an important first step and could be a first step that could enable or push or incentivize private insurers to start covering this at certain.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, how do you explain to colleagues and constituents why access to fertility treatment in this more expansive definition, not even if you can't directly tie it to military service, why that's important to supporting military families and supporting readiness?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, so look, we invest a lot of money in our service members training, right? Like, millions and millions of dollars in training these folks. And it's really important for us to then be able to retain the best of them, move up the ranks. And if people are leaving the military because they can't build a family and need to make other choices, that's really bad for our readiness. And I think this will also be an important thing when we're doing recruitment, which numbers have been down that, you know, this is an important incentive that people might be interested in joining the military in order to access.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you actually talk publicly about. You just said it about freezing your eggs.

[Christian Amanpour]

A.

[Michelle Martin]

Why didn't you. You talk about it and why did you feel comfortable talking about it?

[Sarah Jacobs]

I mean, first of all, I think it's important to destigmatize these things, right? Like, this is what I talk about with my friends all the time. Who's having a baby, who's not having a baby, who's going through ivf, who can't afford childcare. And the idea that this should somehow be shameful. Like, people often think about freezing your eggs as this, like, sad thing, right? Like, oh, you're sold. You didn't find a partner. But in reality, like, I find it very empowering. Like, I'm able to take agency in the decisions about my life. And, you know, what is a bigger decision than when and how to start a family? And also, like, I work in a body where it's our job to make laws for the whole country. And so many of my colleagues don't understand these technologies, have never heard of them. It's no secret that this is the third oldest Congress in history. And so, you know, for me, another big part of it is that we're not going to make good policy if we're not talking about these issues, because if my colleagues don't even know about them, we're not making policy about them. And this is an area where we need to be making good policy and expanding access.

[Michelle Martin]

It's my understanding that the administration is also considering banning abortion access at VA facilities. I don't know, is that also part of this bill or can they do that by regulation or by. By executive order?

[Sarah Jacobs]

This bill only covers active duty service members, but we are working on other efforts to try and combat what they're doing at the va.

[Michelle Martin]

So that isn't set in stone yet.

[Sarah Jacobs]

They can do it by executive order, but we're trying to push back.

[Michelle Martin]

Look, it's a trick. It's a conundrum in a way, because one argument might be, look, if on the one hand, and you're saying you want to ban abortion because you think that that's wrong, but you won't encourage people to have families or support them in doing so, I don't know if those are related arguments or if you even heard those linked in that way.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, absolutely. And they rolled back the policy that allowed service members to travel in order to get abortions if they were stationed in states that didn't have access to abortion. And so, no, I think it's a huge component of it. It's why I spend so much time thinking about quality of life for our service members. I represent San D, the biggest military community in the country. And when you talk to service members, the things they want to talk to you about are like child care, housing, health care, just like everyone else. But we have, like, these folks are serving our country. We have a responsibility to make sure that they can, you know, take care of their families, too. Not to mention that if they're worried about their families at home or they're struggling to build their family or to afford it or can't find childcare, like they're not fully focused on the job, we need them to.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, in fact, you know, there's a Blue Star family survey found that about one in four service members or their spouses report infertility. Can you just explain what is it about military service that might make that uniquely true?

[Sarah Jacobs]

That's right. Look, the military population is more likely to be of reproductive age, so that increases just the number in general. But then if you think about like military service, it's during your prime reproductive years. Right. The majority of people in the military carry are under 40 years old. And we're asking them one to be away from their loved ones during those years on long deployments. But also the things we're asking them to do are really dangerous. Right. They're interacting with a lot of chemicals, with explosives, with other kinds of things. And also, you know, in recent years, obviously also been sending them into literal war zones and conflicts. And so I think it makes a lot of sense that they then are having more of these struggles with fertility than the average population because of the things we're asking of them.

[Michelle Martin]

One of the things that distinguishes your tenure is sort of trying to find kind of nuanced approaches to difficult issues, issues around, like, fertility coverage, but also on another polarizing issue, Israel and Gaza. Like, you've supported Israel's right to defend itself, but you've also tried to speak up for humanitarian access, calling out atrocities. And I just have to wonder, are you kind of a caucus of one in that, or do you feel like there are other people looking for that middle space? I mean, there have been these different groups over time, you know, the Problem Solvers Caucus, the Blue Dog Democrats, people who saw themselves as people who were looking for these centrist positions. But do you feel that there's space for somebody like you? You.

[Sarah Jacobs]

I'm the youngest Jewish member of Congress, so, you know, for me, the issues in Israel are very personal. I have family who lives in Tel Aviv. And in fact, you know, my first cousin actually moved to San Diego after October 7th because she didn't want her kids to be in a bomb shelter every night. And, you know, at my cousins, my aunt, uncle still send me pictures of themselves in the bomb shelter, you know, many nights. And then I also think about the families in Gaza who don't even have bomb shelters to go to. And I've been all over Israel many times. I've been to Gaza, I've been to the West Bank. For me, I think it's maybe because of that, easier to see the humanity on both sides. But I actually think that my position is what the majority of Americans feel, that October 7th was really bad, that Israel has a right to defend itself. But also what we're seeing in Gaza right now is horrific and terrible and should be stopped. And that's particularly true of young Jews. And so, you know, I think it's often hard here in Congress to find a nuanced position. Right. Everyone wants you to pick a side, but I actually think that most of my colleagues and most of the American people are actually where I am. And I just have the personal story to be able to talk about it a little bit more loudly.

[Michelle Martin]

And as we are speaking now, another possible government shutdown because of an inability to pass a budget on time, an inability to return to what's called regular order, which means just doing what we all learned about in fifth grade, which is, you know, committees meet, they talk about the budget, both sides pass it, President signs it, they work out their differences in committee. That's not happening for the most part. So.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Look, I don't know if we're going to end up in a government shutdown. I myself don't think I can vote for a continuing resolution that doesn't include protecting people's health care that we know is being gutted with their cuts to Medicaid, not to mention the things they put into this actual continuing resolution. And so, you know, those conversations are ongoing. But I think it's unfortunate that basically in my whole time in Congress, we've had to get to this point where it's a crisis before we can get a negotiation. And I think that it's, you know, I think what the American people want is to know that we can get things done. And that's, that's what I'm trying to show here.

[Michelle Martin]

Are you still glad you came to Congress? I mean, I mean, you've, you've served in public service before in other areas, but you still glad you're sitting in that chair?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Share Most days, yes. Some days, no. But it is truly my honor to get to represent my community during this really difficult time. I never thought my background would be quite so relevant to what we're experiencing here in the United States. But I also know that, you know, if I wasn't in a position to try and make things better, I would actually feel worse. So even on the hardest days, I remember to be grateful for the opportunity I have to try and fix the.

[Michelle Martin]

Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs, thank you so much for speaking with us.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Thanks for having me.

[Christian Amanpour]

That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye. From London.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Foreign.

[Christian Amanpour]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. All of the transformations and changes that I've made in my life have been a consequence of pain.

[Rustem Umerov]

Trying to tell me something?

[Christian Amanpour]

That's my friend, Rich Roll. He is a podcast host and an ultraman who is no stranger to pain. We're gonna get into the science behind this so that suffering does not have to be an option. Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now. Wherever you get your podcasts.