Conversations of Conflict and Courage

Summary

Amanpour: Conversations of Conflict and Courage

Date: June 6, 2026
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Summary by: CNN Podcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour explores conflict, resilience, and the pursuit of justice and transformation in the face of adversity. Christiane Amanpour features a rare interview with Lebanese President Joseph Aoun amid ongoing conflict with Israel and internal strife involving Hezbollah and Iran. The program also spotlights the courageous stand of columnist E. Jean Carroll against Donald Trump, the artistic reinvention of Paris’s Pont Neuf, the untold stories of women at the Nuremberg trials, and the vulnerability of New Orleans to climate change.

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Key Segments and Insights

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1. Exclusive: Lebanon at a Crossroads – Interview with President Joseph Aoun

Timestamps: 03:16–12:58

Context

• Lebanon is reeling from severe Israeli airstrikes, ongoing skirmishes between Hezbollah and Israeli Defense Forces, and influence from Iran’s IRGC.
• President Joseph Aoun, a rarely-heard figure in Western media, offers a candid perspective on his nation's future, the futility of war, and the urgent need for diplomacy.

Major Insights

• On the Futility of War and Diplomacy
  “War… it’s a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war. We have a great opportunity to end the state of hostility between Lebanon and Israel.” — President Joseph Aoun [04:12]
• Non-State Actors and Asymmetric Conflict:
  "Hezbollah is not—it's an idea, it's not an objective that you can see … it's war amongst people. The battlefield is the people. They are hiding among the people. So how you measure your success? You count bodies." — President Aoun [06:38]
• Iran's Role and Foreign Intervention:
  “It’s not your country, it’s our country. It’s our obligation. It’s not your job to interfere into our country.” — President Aoun, rejecting IRGC’s interference [08:34]
• Painful Human Cost:
  “Since March 2, more than 3,500 people in Lebanon killed… 1 million people have been displaced from their homes. 20% of the population, can you imagine that?” — President Aoun [10:40]
• Sentiment of the Lebanese People:
  “I'm seeing many of them across the board, Christian, Sunni, Jews, even Shiite. They said, we are with you. We are fed up. We need you. We need your help.” — President Aoun [09:54]

Memorable Moment

• President Aoun’s refusal to be cowed by external threats—"Nothing is impossible. My duty... I'm committed to save the country. When there is a will, there is always a way." [12:28]

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2. E. Jean Carroll: Courage in Pursuit of Justice

Timestamps: 14:12–22:19

Context

• Revisiting E. Jean Carroll’s legal battles after accusing Donald Trump of sexual assault. Carroll, having won civil lawsuits, now faces new scrutiny as the DOJ investigates her for possible perjury.

Major Insights

• Why She Pursued the Case:
  "Because he called me a liar and I couldn't let it stand." — E. Jean Carroll [15:02]
• Barriers to Speaking Out:
  “They never would have believed me. I would have lost my… Everything I'd worked for would be dissipated.” — E. Jean Carroll, on not reporting Trump earlier [17:14]
• Role of the MeToo Movement:
  “It was really the MeToo movement that galvanized Eugene… her own readers coming to her… It felt really pressing to tell her own story.” — Ivy Meeropol, director of Ask E. Jean [17:47]
• On the Pattern of Legal Pressure:
  “It's in my DNA to want to expose abuse of power… And this kind of culture of fear has really infected our country right now.” — Ivy Meeropol [21:29]

Notable Quotes

• "My lawyer said, sir, you don’t have to do it. ... This is a fake story and you don't want to give it credibility." — Donald Trump [18:56]
• "She and Robby and the whole team are really in the midst of… cases heading to the Supreme Court and then this recent attack from the DOJ." — Ivy Meeropol [19:50]

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3. Art and Memory: Transforming the Pont Neuf

Timestamps: 22:21–25:57

Context

• French artist JR’s new installation transforms Paris’s Pont Neuf bridge into a walk-through “grotto,” echoing Christo and Jeanne-Claude’s 1985 wrapping of the bridge.

Major Insights

• On Collaborating with Bureaucracies:
  “The mayor of Paris was Mr. Chirac, who liked to become president … We need enormous effort to convince them to agree on one thing.” — Christo, recalling the 1985 project [23:27]
• Art as Shared Experience:
  “The main criteria for that project is, for sure, the visitors. ...We want people to be surprised.” — JR/Christiane [24:41]
• Immersive Art:
  “Normal people feel that they're going deep in a cave while we're still outside and we're still on the bridge.” — [25:49]

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4. The Nuremberg Women: Forgotten Heroines of Justice

Timestamps: 26:08–33:34

Context

• Author Natalie Livingstone discusses her new book, The Nuremberg Women, illuminating the pivotal but overlooked roles women played at the Nuremberg Trials.

Major Insights

• Women’s Invisible Labor:
  “It was a big ecosystem that comprised so many women who were there in so many vital roles.” — Natalie Livingstone [27:14]
• Personal Motivation:
  “Nuremberg was central to my life. I’m the granddaughter of Hungarian Holocaust survivors… I thought I knew about it. And I had unquestioningly digested this cast of all men. Now this is wildly misleading.” — [27:33]
• Marie Claude Vaillant Couturier’s Testimony:
  “She was determined to restore names to those who had been reduced to numbers and then to ash… After she delivered this devastating two hour testimony, she stared off each of the Nazi defendants.” — [28:54]
• Systemic Discrimination:
  “Harriet Zetterberg… she was unable to [present her case in court]. She had to hand her work over to a man. The reason… that disability was that she was a woman.” — [31:21]
• Why These Stories Matter:
  “Just because one isn’t in a position of power, it doesn’t mean you can’t be powerful.” — [33:03]

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5. Climate Crisis: Remembering Katrina, Fearing the Future

Timestamps: 34:45–38:11

Context

• Nearly 21 years since Hurricane Katrina, the program revisits New Orleans, highlighting ongoing vulnerability due to rising sea levels and stronger storms, with a moving replay from Christiane’s archives.

Major Insights

• Personal Stories in Disaster:
  "They went up to the second floor and they said, the water's still coming up. And they lost contact." — Lily Nguyen, seeking family in the days after Katrina [36:35]
• Systemic Failure:
  “Most residents have been evacuated now, but those who remain are very much on their own.” — [37:32]
• Rising Danger:
  “Today, almost every resident of New Orleans faces a high flood risk… experts warn that if a Katrina scale storm struck again, the damage could be even more severe.” — [38:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• President Aoun on War & Negotiation:
  “War, it’s a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war.” [04:12]
• E. Jean Carroll’s Stand:
  “Because he called me a liar and I couldn't let it stand.” [15:02]
• Marie Claude Vaillant Couturier’s Defiance:
  “…She stared off each of the Nazi defendants. She looked at them in the eye with the memory of those they had slaughtered.” [29:38]
• Harriet Zetterberg’s Silent Victory:
  “She had to hand her work over to a man … that disability was that she was a woman.” [32:14]
• Livingstone’s Call to Action:
  “Just because one isn’t in a position of power, it doesn’t mean you can’t be powerful.” [33:03]

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Additional Highlights

• Pont Neuf Installation: The new “cave” art installation by JR invites thousands to experience the bridge—and public space—in an entirely new way, drawing parallels to past landmark art interventions.
• Traditions & Rituals: The episode closes with a look at Spain’s El Salto del Calacho, the "Devil's Jump," a centuries-old protective rite for newborns.

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Conclusion

This episode of Amanpour weaves together compelling stories of political courage, justice, artistic transformation, and resilience against disaster. The interviews and features remind listeners of the power of negotiation over violence, the continuing battle for women’s voices to be heard, the pressure of history on the present, and the universal yearning for security, dignity, and justice.

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For further listening:
Find more episodes and in-depth reports at cnn.com/audio and all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

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[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Bianna Golodriga]

Hello and welcome to the AMANPUR Hour. Here's where we're headed this week. In a worldwide exclusive, Christian sits down with the Lebanese president in Beirut. He sends a message to the US and beyond as his country is battered by war. Then a closer look at E. Jean Carroll, the columnist who became a target after accusing President Trump of sexual assault. I speak to the director of the documentary Ask E. Jean.

[Ivy Meeropol]

I didn't expect her to be as funny and as brave and inspiring as she turned out to be.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And the oldest bridge in Paris transforms into a cavern of wonders. An exclusive look inside the new artwork reimagining the Pont Neuf. Also on the program, the forgotten women who fought for justice at the trial of the century. Natalie Livingstone sits down with Christiane in London to discuss her new book, the Nuremberg Women.

[Natalie Livingstone]

It was a big ecosystem that comprised of so many women who were there in so many vital roles.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And as scientists warn, rising seas could swallow New Orleans. From Christiane's archives, how Hurricane Katrina made the world painfully aware of just how vulnerable the city is. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane because this week she's been in Lebanon conducting an exclusive interview with the country's president, Joseph Aoun. Now, he rarely speaks with foreign media, but is taking this step to send a message to the world and his own people about the state of his nation. Parts of Lebanon have been severely damaged by Israeli airstrikes, as well as from Hezbollah and the ISRA Defense Forces trading fire with some shocking destruction in the capital city of Beirut. The violence has reportedly made President Trump furious, fearing attacks on Beirut could Undermine any deal with Iran. So is the fate of the region and the world tied to the fate of this country? Christian? Asked the man leading Lebanon, President Aun.

[Christian]

President Aun, thank you so much for being with us. Welcome to the program.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you for coming. Please.

[Christian]

This is a very crucial moment for your country, for you, in fact, for the region. The latest ceasefire has been announced late this week. And yet as we speak, the Israeli Prime Minister says Hezbollah has not agreed, so he will not recommend a ceasefire to his cabinet. Therefore, it doesn't exist according to Israel at this moment. And in any event, they're always being violated by both sides. Do you think this is going to be any different?

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's difficult. I know the only way, for me, the only way to end this conflict is through negotiation. The Israelis, Prime Minister Netanyahu and Hezbollah, they have to understand that they are waging a futile war. The strategy that they are following is short sighted, counterproductive, and believe me, it will never lead to the desired outcome. War, it's a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war. We have a great opportunity to end the state of hostility between Lebanon and Israel. We have a great opportunity for both the Lebanese and the Israeli people to live in safety and security. They are both, I think, fed up with war since 1948. This is a huge opportunity. So both, they have to choose war or negotiation or diplomacy. Believe me, diplomacy. This is the best way forward. As a military man, I understand, I've lived the atrocities and the hardship of the war. The best way is through diplomacy. Wars, normally, historically speaking, ends either way. There is a victor and a vanquished or through negotiation, both sides will never be able to achieve their objective.

[Christian]

Why do you say that? Because clearly Israel believes, and it is the superior power, conventionally speaking, that it can keep pushing Hezbollah back. As long as Hezbollah keeps firing into Israel, he it can. It's the whole mowing the lawn strategy that they have. And you're right, every time there's a ceasefire, there are violations. There have been these incursions, these wars periodically over the last, you know, at least since 2000 with Hezbollah and Israel. And it keeps coming back to the same place. Hezbollah keeps doing the provocations, keeps doing Iran's work. So maybe this is what suits them. Maybe you will always be in the middle of this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're absolutely right. That's what they think. But that's what I said, that their strategy is short sighted. They've tried it before, in 2000, in 2006, in 2023, 24, and in 2026 now. But honestly, they can invade the whole country, they can flatten the whole country, but they will never be able to achieve their objective. Because dealing with non state actors is different than dealing with. With the conventional forces. When you have two conventional forces, you have the one that has possesses more capabilities, will defeat the other side. So Hezbollah is not. It's an idea, it's not an objective that you can see, it's not a geographic objective. It's war amongst people. The battle field is the people. They are hiding among the people. So how you measure your success? You count bodies. They've tried it in Gaza. Hamas still exists or not?

[Christian]

It does. So let's just take Hezbollah, non state actor, backed by Iran state. You go into ceasefire agreements as the head of state with Israel. But the non state actor is not party to this. In fact, the latest comments from Hezbollah to your government and to you basically says that this is a farce. The talks between your government and Israel, they call a farce. They say that you know, that they're not bound by this and they don't believe in this right now. So do you have any reason to believe, because you don't negotiate directly with Hezbollah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly.

[Christian]

That they can be persuaded? What are the steps to make?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hopefully, and eventually they'll be persuaded. But the cost would be high, unfortunately. I will try. Actually. Nothing is impossible and I will keep pushing for it. At the end of the day, I have two choices, as I said, either to sit idle doing nothing or trying to negotiate and to reason with them. Definitely IRGC has a major influence on Hezbollah and they have to remember what they said yesterday. I totally reject their statement.

[Christian]

What who said this is who said?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Irgc, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, that they don't agree with. They don't approve this agreement. What happened? It's not your country, it's our country. It's our obligation. It's not your job to interfere into our country. I reject the statement totally because our people being killed, our people being our houses being destroyed, they are using Lebanon as a bargaining chip in their negotiation with the United States. It's unacceptable. And here also, Hezbollah must understand that. Hezbollah must understand that no other way but to sit and talk. No other way to solve this problem and to save what's left except through negotiation and diplomacy.

[Christian]

So the Hezbollah leader here, Naim Qassem, has warned you all against confronting them. As I said. He also said these talks with Israel under US Auspices in the United States are a farce. And he also basically said, quote, the people have the right to take to the streets and bring down the government in confronting the American Israeli project.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Whoa.

[Christian]

That is a direct challenge to everything you're just saying right now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I don't want to comment on that. But let me tell you that the majority of the Lebanese people are fed up with war. I'm seeing many of them across the board, Christian, Sunni, Jews, even Shiite. They said, we are with you. We are fed up. We need you. We need your help.

[Christian]

To you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes, yes, exactly. I met many people from the south and the same conversation took place. We are fed up since 1969. We want to live in peace and they deserve to live in peace and in dignity. They deserve not seeing their homes being destroyed. Every five to 10 years since March 2, more than 3,500 people in Lebanon killed. On average, 13 children have been killed by Israelis every day since the escalation began. More than 10,000 people have been injured or wounded. More than 1 million people have been displaced from their homes. 20% of the population, can you imagine that? 20% of Lebanon's population, entire family have been wiped out. This is one family for our family. This is the Nimr family, Hamdan family. These are the Red Cross. This is a funeral of 13 members of the state security were killed in one airstrike.

[Christian]

One Israeli airstrike.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly. And this is three months old, baby. Is this imminent threat?

[Christian]

Well, we see these kind of pictures coming out of Gaza, coming out of the occupied West Bank. We hear the Israeli defense authorities and others saying we are going to turn this part of Lebanon into Gaza. I mean, it said, that is what they say again. Here we are in the Presidential palace, one of the areas of Beirut that have been struck. You can feel it here in this palace. You told me when the bombings happen, you can see it from your balcony here. Are you powerless?

[Christiane Amanpour]

As I said, nothing is impossible. My duty, my duty and I'm committed to save the country. I'll do whatever it takes. When there is a will, there is always a way. I'm not saying that it's very easy. It's easy. Can you imagine or have you ever seen a 40 years conflict or 50 years conflict end in one day or overnight? But we have to struggle in order to save what's left of the country.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Coming up next, the columnist who took on the President won and now may face a Justice Department probe. Because of it, we get a sneak peek at the new documentary on the woman behind the famous cases, E. Jean Carroll. And later in the program, how one photographer is transforming an iconic Paris Bridge into a cavernous artwork. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Anderson Cooper]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Anderson Cooper]

Craig Ferguson, American on purpose. New episodes now streaming on the CNN app. Go to CNN.com watch to subscribe or log in with your TV provider.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Welcome back to the program. Magazine columnist E. Jean Carroll stunned world in 2019 when she wrote in a memoir that Donald Trump had raped her in the 1990s, allegations the president has consistently denied. While Carroll successfully sued him in civil court for defamation and sexual assault, it seems the case is nowhere near over. CNN sources revealing now that the DOJ is investigating Carroll for possible perjury during her testimony, something the U.S. attorney has strongly denied. But CNN sources have reaffirmed it's an extraordinary sag and a new documentary, ask E. Jean, is looking at the woman at the heart of it all. Here's a short clip. If you were concerned about being dragged through the mud, why would you choose

[Christian]

to sue Donald Trump?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Because he called me a liar and I couldn't let it stand.

[Natalie Livingstone]

I called you right after the attack.

[Bianna Golodriga]

I was very disappointed that you wouldn't report him.

[Natalie Livingstone]

They never would have believed me.

[Bianna Golodriga]

You were more famous than he was.

[Natalie Livingstone]

Here comes this huge attorney, Robbie Caplan. She laid out the case and the

[Bianna Golodriga]

film's director, Ivy Meeropol, joined me to talk about it. Ivy, welcome to the program. You describe this documentary as a wildly uncertain and at times terrifying ride. Just tell us what drew you to this story and to E. Jean in particular.

[Ivy Meeropol]

Sure. Well, so in 2019, when E. Jean first published the excerpt from her book what Do We Need Men For, I read it in New York magazine, as many people did, and I did not know anything about Eugene Carroll particularly. And I was so struck by her voice, how unapologetic it was, and how she was kind of refusing to be flattened in the way that women who come forward with these stories often do. And I just, I reached out to her and I was just, I didn't expect her to be as funny and as brave and inspiring as she turned out to be. So that's really, that was the hook for how I first began this long over six year journey with her.

[Bianna Golodriga]

As a popular advice columnist. E. Jean Carroll took a tough line in telling women to let go of all of their guilt if they came to her and spoke of the abuses that they experienced and she told them to press charges. But I want to play a clip from the documentary when she was speaking with her friend Lisa Birnbach, who was a writer and humorist and who Eugene turned to immediately after this experience that she says occurred with the president or with Trump at the time she raised this, you know, why are you telling people to do certain things and you in fact didn't for so many years? Let's play the clip. You know, I was very disappointed that you wouldn't report him.

[Natalie Livingstone]

But Lisa, they never would have believed me. I would have lost my, I would have been fired. I didn't have money to get an attorney. Everything I'd work for would be dissipated.

[Bianna Golodriga]

You said, don't ever speak of this again. Don't ever tell anyone this story as long as you live. Do I have your word? And you did. And that was that. So what did you end up learning, Ivy, about what ultimately led her to come out and speak her experience and her truth.

[Ivy Meeropol]

It was really the MeToo movement that galvanized Eugene that she was so moved by the stories that were coming out and that they were actually gaining justice, that men were being held accountable, which is something Eugene hadn't experienced and didn't expect. And I think it really, it moved her so much. But it was also her own readers coming to her at that time and saying, we, you know, what do we do? We have similar stories, similar experiences. What do we do now? And so it felt really pressing to her to tell her own stories, share them with her readers. And, you know, I look at it now as always, like caring about herself.

[Bianna Golodriga]

On May 9, a jury found that Donald Trump was liable for sexual abuse and defamation and awarded e. Jean Carroll $5 million in damage. He has denied all of these charges and accusations to this, calling this a fake story, a made up story. And he didn't testify in the first trial and he did testify in the second. And here's what he said about why he didn't testify in the first.

[Christiane Amanpour]

My lawyer said, sir, you don't have to do it. I actually said, I think I should. It would be respectful. They said, sir, don't do it. This is a fake story and you don't want to Give it credibility.

[Bianna Golodriga]

One thing you go, one thing you did do in this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I swear, and I've never done that, and I swear to God, I have no idea who the hell she's a whack job.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And it was comments like this, both in interviews and on social media, that ultimately led Eugene to sue Donald Trump again. The second jury verdict was announced at $83.3 million in damages. I don't believe. Has any of that been paid yet?

[Ivy Meeropol]

No, no, nothing.

[Bianna Golodriga]

So then let me ask you your reaction to the news last week of an investigation perhaps from the doj, Your reaction to that news and what did Eugene say if you spoke with her recently?

[Ivy Meeropol]

Well, I actually haven't spoken with Eugene recently. She, you know, they are really, she and Robby and the whole team are really in the midst of, you know, the two cases heading to the Supreme Court and then this recent attack from the doj. So I, you know, I, I've said I found it unbelievable but not surprising. I did react very strongly, but then started to think, well, you know what, it's consistent, starting with Comey and Letitia James. I mean, I think that there is some pattern here that's clear. And I think when you watch the film, what's really important is that this film is the antidote to that. You know, he is kind of bullying and trying to silence Eugene is very clear. And I don't, as far as I know, I mean, there are no, there are no facts that I can cite or any way that give any credence to if, you know, this investigation, if it is a real investigation.

[Bianna Golodriga]

I do want to ask you that. We have a few seconds left here. Just the connections here. Your grandparents were Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. They were the only Americans, civilians who were executed for espionage related charges during the Cold War. You made a movie about their legacy and one about Roy Cohen, who happened to be President Trump's famous attorney. He keeps on saying, I need my own Roy Cohen. What was that like? Just the knowing the connection there going back so many generations for you?

[Ivy Meeropol]

Well, I mean, you know, I think I have this, you know, kind of, it's in my DNA to kind of to want to expose abuse of power and also hold people accountable and seek justice. So I made the Roy Cohn film right after Donald Trump was first elected because I wanted people to really understand where he comes from and who helped create him. And this kind of culture of fear that has infected, really infected our country right now. And specifically the process of making this film. And Eugene herself comes directly from that lineage Ivy Miropol.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing the film with us.

[Ivy Meeropol]

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And Ask E Jean is now playing in select theaters across the country. Still to come, millions have crossed the Pont Neuf over centuries. Now a French street artist is asking visitors to see it in a whole new way. Welcome back. In Paris, a landmark that has stood for more than four centuries is undergoing a remarkable transformation. The city's oldest bridge, Pont Neuf, has become the latest canvas for the acclaimed French artist JR who has turned it into a giant walk through cave. The installation is already drawing huge crowds and evoking memories of Christo and Jean Claude's famous wrapping of the bridge four decades ago. Here's what Christo told Christiane about the project back in 2018.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I made Jean Claude in Paris. We make love in Paris. And I returned to Jean Claude, your wife in Paris, 1958. We did it that beautiful in September autumn.

[Christian]

And did you get easy permission or did it?

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, long time. That was another incredible play. The mayor of Paris was Mr. Chirac, who liked to become president. And the president of France, because the bridge is national treasure, was controlled by the state of France, Mr. Mitterrand. Mr. Chirac and Mitterrand do not talk each other. And we need enormous effort to convince them to agree on one thing.

[Christian]

That's just amazing. You got them to agree on that. The very conservative mayor of Paris and the Socialist president.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly. That was really very difficult.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Melissa Bell takes us inside the new work for an exclusive early look.

[Natalie Livingstone]

For weeks, it's been the talk of the town.

[Bianna Golodriga]

It's often said that Paris is just an open air museum. But here, the city's oldest bridge, the Pont Neuf, that has been brought to a new level by the French artist

[Natalie Livingstone]

JR and this monumental grotto.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Let's have a look inside. The idea also is, Camille, that we're all kind of wrapped up in algorithms. We're all slightly separate as you walk through here. And it takes 15 minutes to get to the end of the bridge.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Everyone who walks through here is doing it together. There's something about that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Because for us, the main criteria for that project is for sure, the visitors. We had to inflate it like two weeks ago. And the idea for us was really to create that expectation. And we want people to be surprised.

[Bianna Golodriga]

This holds because of air pressure.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly. So there is no friction, there is no strain, there is no heat upon it. It's just like changing the pressure behind those walls. That would make it rise and hold. Wow.

[Bianna Golodriga]

That's amazing.

[Natalie Livingstone]

It was in 1985 that the Pont Neuf was wrapped in fabric by the artists Christo and Jeanne Claude. 3 million people visited then. Another of Christo's ideas was realized in 2021 with the wrapping of the Arc de Triomphe. It's an artistic legacy that JR's cave honors and evolves.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's almost like a living organism because Night Loops is a weird so you really feel the weather around you, but you still deep inside something that you never experienced before.

[Natalie Livingstone]

It looks like you're walking through a cave.

[Bianna Golodriga]

That's how it feels.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Normal people feel that they're going deep in a cave while we're still outside and we're still on the bridge.

[Bianna Golodriga]

A chance for visitors to to lose

[Natalie Livingstone]

themselves in space and time in one of the most famous places on Earth. MELISSA belsien, Paris

[Bianna Golodriga]

still to come, untold stories from heroines of history, the forgotten women who helped bring the Nazis to justice at Nuremberg. That's after the break. Welcome back now to the women hidden from view in the most important criminal cases of the 20th century, the Nuremberg trials, where after World War II, top Nazi officials were prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity, the chief of which, of course, was the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were slaughtered. In a new book called the Nuremberg Women, author Natalie Livingstone looks at the extraordinary women who helped reshape Germany after the war, from lawyers and journalists to aristocrats and artists. She told Christiane some of their stories.

[Christian]

Natalie Livingstone, welcome to the program.

[Natalie Livingstone]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Christian]

It's an amazing book. The idea, the concept is amazing. I know you do a lot of threads around women. What made you focus on the Nuremberg women?

[Natalie Livingstone]

Why so Nuremberg has always been central to my life. I'm the granddaughter of Hungarian Holocaust survivors. So when I was growing up really loomed large, the trial, and I thought I was pretty familiar with the trial. I thought I knew about it. And I had unquestioningly digested this cast of all men. It is, you know, the mendacious charisma of Herman Goering, the wonderful speech of Robert Jackson that swinging around. He was a chief American prosecutor. And it basically Nuremberg was his was a was his ideal and his practically his idea, a representation of the hopes and the dreams that he had for the future of international relations. So I thought that Nuremberg was a story about men. I thought Nuremberg was photographs of men, paintings of men. And I don't know if you saw recently, there was that movie with Russell Crowe and Rami Malek Nuremberg again, all men. Men. Now this is wildly misleading. In fact, Nuremberg is so much more than just courtroom 600 where the trial took place. It was a big ecosystem that comprised of so many women who were there in so many vital roles. Translators, witnesses, journalists, artists, lawyers. And Nuremberg was about so much more than men in robes administering justice.

[Christian]

Okay, so that brings us to a really important character in this who you profile. Marie Claude Vaillant Couturier, first female testimony. Tell me her importance.

[Natalie Livingstone]

Absolutely. Well, Marie Claude Vallon Couturier is the heart and soul of the book for me. If there's one name, if there's one thing that I'd like anyone who reads the book to remember is her name. Because she changed the course of history. Marie Claude is a fearless French resistance fighter. She was arrested in 1942. She was kept for months in solitary confinement. In 1943 she was put on a transport to Auschwitz, part of 230 other female prisoners from the French Resistance. Only 49 of them survived. She endured two years in Auschwitz and Ravensbruck. She survived. She opted to stay for three months longer after liberation to look after those who were too sick and too infirm to travel home by themselves. And on 28th January 1946, she sat on the stand in Nuremberg, this fragile, frail, beautiful French woman. And for two hours she recounted in unflinching details the horrors of the camp. She detailed everything she had seen in Auschwitz. The fate of babies, the fate of children, the fate of women. She spoke of sexual violence. And she was determined to restore names to those who had been reduced to numbers and then to ash. And that is what powered her. And the amazing thing about Marie Claude is after she delivered this devastating two hour testimony, she got down from the witness stand and she stared off each of the Nazi defendants. She looked at them in the eye with the memory of those they had slaughtered. And it was a real moment of reckoning for her. And to have that, that power and that courage, that resilience and that conviction is beyond humbling.

[Christian]

Finally I want to ask you about, I think is Harriet Zetterberg, the American lawyer who did so much to make the case against Hans Frank, Hitler's personal lawyer and also known as the Butcher of Poland.

[Natalie Livingstone]

So Harriet Zetterberg, extraordinary woman, extraordinary legal brain, she's taken to Nuremberg and she is tasked with putting together the dossier to convict Hans Frank, who as you said, Butcher of Poland, one of the most evil characters in the Nazi regime. And she works night and day. She slaves in freezing cold conditions in the palace of justice under 20 watt light bulbs. And it is an absolute labor of love. It is an outstanding dossier. But when it came to presenting her work in court, she was unable to do so. She had to present. She had to hand her work over to a man. The reason, in order to have advocated in court at that time, she would have had to have obtained a waiver of disability. And that disability was that she was a woman.

[Christian]

Was that a German law or.

[Natalie Livingstone]

No, that was an American law that

[Christian]

no woman could present in court, no

[Natalie Livingstone]

woman lawyer could advocate in court unless they obtained a waiver of disability.

[Christian]

Incredible. And on that point, I just wanted to read in America. CBS News broadcast at the time by Howard Smith. Howard K. Smith warned male listeners of the specter of feminism in Nuremberg. Quote, he said the rising tide of feminism has overflowed into the intellectual jobs, before mentioning the airtight case that was built against Hans Frank written by a woman, Harriet Zetterberg. So, you know, that's the context in which all this was happening. What do you hope people will take away from this? Because there's been a lot written about Nuremberg, obviously a lot written about Nazism, the Holocaust, World War II.

[Natalie Livingstone]

I mean, my hope very much is that people will look at the stories of these women and get a sense of their resilience, their hope for the future, their desperation to search for truth in a sea of information and their passion for life and their joie de vivre. And also the sense that just because one isn't in a position of power, it doesn't mean you can't be powerful.

[Christian]

That's a great way to end it. Natalie Livingstone, thank you very much indeed. The Nuremberg women.

[Natalie Livingstone]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Finally having their stories told 80 years later. Natalie Livingstone's book, the Nuremberg Women is out now after the break, Scientists say New Orleans may be underwater within this century. Up next, a reminder of the city's vulnerability from Christiane's archive. Nearly 21 years, years after Hurricane Katrina, we revisit one family's desperate search for loved ones. They went up to the second floor and they said, the water still coming up. And they lost contact.

[Christian]

And this was before the levee broke.

[Ivy Meeropol]

Yes, yes.

[Anderson Cooper]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Bianna Golodriga]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] oh, just my type babe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, you mean the house.

[Ivy Meeropol]

Welcome to the highest competition of the summer type.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Three amateur renovation teams paired with a top HGTV mentor will transform three beach houses into a life changing opportunity to win $50,000 cash. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Did you say $50,000?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Can we join all new battle on the beach Monday night at 9 on HGTV. Welcome back. The UN Is warning the world to prepare for the return of El Nino, the climate phenomenon that can super extreme weather around the globe. Forecasters say there is an 80% chance that it will develop before September. And New Orleans knows the risks. It's been nearly 21 years since Hurricane Katrina devastated the city. Rising sea levels, hotter oceans and more extreme weather fueled by climate change are making disasters like Katrina even more dangerous. One recent study warned the region has crossed the point of no return and that New Orleans could be surrounded by the Gulf of Mexico before the end of this century. In this report from the CNN archives, Chrisean returned to the city in the aftermath of the catastrophe as families search desperately for loved ones.

[Lily Nguyen]

Lily Nguyen is looking for her in laws. She left New Orleans before the flood and now for the first time in a week, she's come back to try to find her husband's mother, father, sister and his two brothers.

[Bianna Golodriga]

You know, I feel so guilty. I feel I didn't know that they were missing.

[Lily Nguyen]

Lily's in laws, Vietnamese Americans insisted on riding out the hurricane. But Monday when it hit was the last time they spoke.

[Bianna Golodriga]

They went up to the second floor and they said the water's still coming up. And they, they lost contact.

[Christian]

And this was before the levee broke?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yes, yes.

[Lily Nguyen]

Now, now, six days later, access to the lakefront church her family took refuge in is still blocked.

[Christian]

All of this is still underwater.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Look at that.

[Lily Nguyen]

We asked two men sitting on their waterlogged porch how to get there.

[Bianna Golodriga]

I know there's a lake all the way down to the end.

[Ivy Meeropol]

That's where my parents live. All the way to the end.

[Christian]

It doesn't look good, does it?

[Lily Nguyen]

No, worse. We can't get information either from the police or from the sheriff.

[Christian]

Do you know anything about lakefront? What's the situation there?

[Bianna Golodriga]

I can't see.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Other than possibly flooding.

[Lily Nguyen]

When we see a body on the road, Lily wants to know who is it? Is it Vietnamese? Is it a man or a woman? But nobody knows. A few truckloads of National Guard troops pass by. Some helicopters ferry supplies overhead. Most residents have been evacuated now, but those who remain are very much on their own. With Lily in tears, a firefighter explains there's still at least 12ft of water in her in laws neighborhood.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Where can we go to get information?

[Lily Nguyen]

He can't tell her where to get more information. Staring at the watery obstacle in her way, Lily says somehow she'll try to come back with a boat.

[Bianna Golodriga]

I need to know.

[Ivy Meeropol]

I need to find out.

[Lily Nguyen]

Christiane Amanpour, cnn, New Orleans.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Today, almost every resident of New Orleans faces a high flood risk. And experts warn that if a Katrina scale storm struck again, the damage could be even more severe. When we come back, we visit the Spanish village that this weekend will see the devil jump over the lake. Local newborns. No, really. We'll explain why up next. And finally this weekend, one of the world's most interesting and breath halting high stakes religious celebrations takes place in Spain. A small village is preparing for a big event called El Salto del Calacho, or the Devil's Job. It occurs every year on the Sunday following the Catholic feast day of Corpus Christi and sees a man in a brightly colored costume and devil mask making a daring jump over newborn babies. That's right. In fact, all the babies have been born in the village in the past year. And the tradition, which dates back to the 17th century, is meant to protect the young from evil spirits. Wishing anyone taking that leap and everyone lying beneath it, good luck or Buenos Aires tomorrow. And that is all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Bianna Golodriga, New York. Thanks so much for watching. Christiane will be back next week.

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[Anderson Cooper]

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. As Ken Burns said on an earlier podcast, the Half Life of grief is endless. Mariska Hargitay knows that very well. Jane Mansfield was killed in a car crash in 1967. Mariska was in the car with her. After decades spent coming to terms with her past and wanting to learn more about the mother she doesn't remember, Mariska has made a remarkable documentary called My Mom Jane.

[Ivy Meeropol]

Our vulnerability is our greatest strength and our greatest connector. And so, in telling the story, I don't feel vulnerable. I feel free. We all have a story, and you never know what somebody else carries.

[Anderson Cooper]

Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.