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Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. So our response will be unflinching. United and proportional Europe hits back against Trump's tariff threats as America guns for Greenland. Senator Chris Coons weighs in on the fraying transatlantic alliance. Then sheep, sheep, sheep. The actions of US Federal agents remains unchecked. Nearly two weeks after the fatal shooting of Renee Good in Minneapolis. Journalist Lydia Polgreen tells me why she fears a civil war on the streets of Minnesota.
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Also ahead, it's important to speak up and point out perhaps the unintended consequences of some of these actions because they're extreme and they are urgent.
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From funding cuts to harsh immigration policies, how Trump's decisions may be damaging US Medical prowess. Co founder of Moderna Nubar A fan tells Walter Isaacson why America must return to choosing science. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Goldriga. New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. Well, today marks one year since President Trump began his second term. In just one year, we've seen seismic shifts in America's foreign policy, such as his relentless bid for Greenland ahead of his trip to Davos for the World Economic Forum. This is what he had to say.
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We have to have it. They have to have this done.
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They can protect it.
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Denmark, they're wonderful people and I know the leaders are very good people, but they don't even go there.
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President Trump has agreed to meet with European leaders in Davos on the matter. But he's also been ramping up his feud with them by exposing private messages on Truth Social, including that of French President Macron, who wrote, I do not understand what you are doing on Greenland. Plus, he's now threatening an additional 200% tariffs on French wine if Macron refuses to join his Gaza Board of Peace. In an address at Davos, President Macron said we do prefer respect to bullies and held his ground.
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Conflict has become normalized hybrids expanding into new demands. Space, digital information, cyber trade, and so on. It's as well as shift towards a world without rules, where international law is trampled underfoot and where the only law that seems to matter is that of.
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The strongest and imperial ambitions are resurfacing.
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So how do we make sense of this incredible, incredibly turbulent moment for America and Europe? And where does it leave the NATO alliance? Democratic Senator Chris Coons wants to de escalate tensions and has just finished a bipartisan congressional visit to Denmark. And he joins us from Davos with more. Senator, good to see you. I want to get to Your trip in just a moment to Denmark. But let's talk about the latest headlines, specifically from the president and his escalating threats for Greenland. The Wall Street Journal editorial board warned that President Trump's Greenland campaign risks accomplishing Russia's long held goal of breaking the transatlantic alliance. You yourself have said that this is a fight, quote, with enormous cost for US Security and prosperity, driven by little more than a vanity project. At what point does Congress have to treat this as not just pure rhetoric, but a threat to the NATO alliance as a whole? Because that does seem to be how European leaders are viewing this.
- [04:03]
D
That's right. A year ago, I sat down and met with the Danish foreign minister, the Icelandic, excuse me, the Greenlandic foreign minister, and asked them a few simple questions. Is there a real and imminent threat to Greenland and its security from Russia and China? No. Would you welcome additional investments by the Americans in Arctic security in Greenland? Yes. Would you work with us to unlock the economic potential of Greenland? Absolutely. This was a year ago when President Trump was first threatening to try and take Greenland, and he moved on from that subject. A few months later, it died down. It went away. Now it is an urgent threat, both to NATO, to our economic relationship with Europe through the eu, and to our reputation as a trustworthy partner and ally. I hope, before it is too late, that President Trump waters down or slows down his harsh and unprincipled rhetoric, because it is beginning to move. Our markets have responded. Today, the largest Danish pension fund is selling off its US Treasuries. The European leaders I've met with yesterday and today are saying they are alarmed and they're going to begin hedging. They're going to begin opening to other partners than the United States. These developments by President Trump are encouraging Putin because his goal for decades has been to end the NATO alliance. This is accelerating that dangerous day.
- [05:29]
A
It does seem like the justification and the explanation from the president's top advisers keep changing, and that from the president himself. First, you have the treasury secretary saying that the president is trying to preempt a threat here. The Wall street in the New York Times, the president had said that this was a psychologically needed success for him personally. He also alluded to the fact that he was doing this because he did not win the Nobel Peace Prize. And the latest I do want to get you to respond to, because his special envoy to Greenland, Jeff Landry today is now arguing that because more Americans died defending Greenland in World War II than Danes died, the US have a superior claim to the territory today Calling Denmark unserious about its own defense. You, I know, were at a wreath laying ceremony in Denmark this week with a group of bipartisan members of Congress honoring those Danes who fought alongside and served with U.S. troops in both Afghanistan and in Iraq. How do you respond to this new claim?
- [06:41]
D
Look, the way that you earn trust with allies is through sacrifice. 25 years ago, when the United States was attacked, the Danes didn't even ask. They immediately joined us in deployments to Afghanistan and later to Iraq. And on a per capita basis, they lost more Danish soldiers than any other NATO ally. So when I was honored to join with my Senate and House colleagues in laying a wreath at the memorial to those who served and died in Iraq and Afghanistan, it was a very emotional moment as we were thinking about how their families were view this. When President Trump says that Denmark can't defend Greenland, that's not the right framing. NATO is what is supposed to defend Greenland. And we're a part of NATO. None of the other NATO countries in Europe can defend themselves alone against Russia. Latvia can't. Greece can't. Romania can't. Finland can't. But all of us together, all the nations of NATO, we are the strongest military alliance on Earth, and, and our NATO allies have stepped up in the past year and dramatically increased their spending, their investment in defense. That's something that's happened in this past year, and it's something President Trump should be celebrating and recognizing rather than berating and threatening them. This is a pivotal moment for him to either recognize that Danes have sacrificed and NATO has value, or to put it at further risk.
- [08:07]
A
Yeah, I do notice you're wearing a Danish US Flag pinned there as well. You have also been trying to ease tensions and suggesting that you hope business leaders and world leaders can level face with President Trump tomorrow and really explain to him everything that you've just laid out. I would imagine this isn't the first time that people have tried to explain to him what's at stake. Why are you still optimistic that something can change between now and then?
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D
I'm not sure I'm that optimistic. It's just that the alternative is so catastrophic. Most of the folks I've spoken to, business leaders, military leaders, elected leaders, have said this is unthinkable. And the problem is we now have to think about it seriously and take seriously the risks of this moment. President Trump is risking enormous costs to the United States for very little gain. Greenland is a remote, barely accessible place that is overwhelmingly ice and rock and has a very small population picking fights with our most trusted and valuable allies over this is just not a smart thing to do.
- [09:24]
A
There have been a number of different approaches that allies and even members of Congress here have tried to take over this last year with President Trump to try to talk him out of some of his more questionable policies and decisions, and not all have been successful. And I'm asking this because I want to get your response to Governor Gavin Newsom, who's also there in Davos and kind of berated the approach that European leaders have thus far taken in response to President Trump in saying that. He says that that does not present so strength, and he thinks that they should stay tall and united and stop appeasing the president. Do you think that's the appropriate approach? Do you agree with Governor Newsom?
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D
Look, I think if you review the last year when President Trump launched tariffs against China, China pushed back hard because they have a critical advantage in minerals and mining and processing because they had prepared for a tariff fight. And ultimately, President Trump backed down. We did have a nearly finished tariff deal that Secretary Bessant has been working on between the United States and the EU And Gavin Newsom, governor of California, is right. The Europeans chose not to punch back, but to negotiate in good faith, believing that that the importance of market access here in Europe and the significance and depth of our security relationship made it more valuable and more reasonable to negotiate. That hasn't worked out well. If, in fact, President Trump keeps using tariffs to threaten our EU partners, this is going to be a moment of truth for them where they've got to decide on their path. And I think Governor Newsom is giving them good advice.
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A
So that's advice that you think that they should follow, that at this point point they should stand up to the president and perhaps respond in kind.
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Look, they've got to make their decisions based on conversations tomorrow that will be happening here between senior leaders and President Trump. At the end of the day, what I'm doing as an American senator is trying to advance what is in America's best interests. Three quarters of Americans don't want us to go after Greenland to use force or to use threats against our allies to try and secure Greenland. They'd rather see us focusing on lowering health care costs, on dealing with housing costs, on making America healthy again. And that's not what is being principally advanced by a variety of foreign adventures by President Trump. So I'm hopeful that in their direct conversations between European leaders and President Trump tomorrow, they can avert going over the edge. But if we do, we're going to be in for a rough ride as a country.
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C
Well.
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A
And you are answering for constituents back here in your home state. And I do wonder because you have the president's treasury secretary warning, warning these allies not to retaliate and not to potentially even use the bazooka tariff response which they have at their disposal. And that's issuing tariffs on goods and services that would have a direct effect on your constituents as well here in the United States. Is that something then to follow up on what Gavin Newsom has advised European leaders? Is that what you think is warranted at this point? Doesn't that put you in an awkward position with your own constituents?
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D
So let me tell you what's just happened with one of our other close, trusted allies, Canada. Canada is the largest export market for products and services from my home state of Delaware, as it is for a majority of American states. The prime minister of Canada just went to China and is opening a new trading relationship with China. Canada stood by our side for years and joined us in some important security issues, took some risks on our behalf in the last couple of years, and they were rewarded with tariffs that punished their automobile industry. Ultimately, the prime minister decided they had to go stand tough against the United States and cut new deals with China. President Trump complimented Prime Minister Carney on doing this. In my view, this is an alarming trend that close and trusted allies whose economies are intertwined with ours are going to start pricing risk from the United States and finding alternatives. Canada is one economy, but the European Union is the single biggest economy in the world other than the United States and China. We'd rather have them open towards us rather than realigning towards China. And that's one of the key things that's at risk here. If they apply 90 billion euros of tariffs on American products and services, that's over $100 billion. That'll have a huge impact on our economy and our cost of living.
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A
Right. And despite the tariffs that the United States has posed on China, China last year for the first time recorded a trade surplus, really highlighting the point that you are making that they have many other trade partners that they can seek out around the world. The president still hasn't ruled out the use of military force, however unlikely that may be, to acquire Greenland. I know so many people are asking you, both domestically here in the States and while you're traveling abroad, what can Congress do to prevent that from happening? So what is the answer to that question?
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D
So, first, that is the single most outrageous and dangerous thing President Trump is doing, is not ruling out the use of force against a NATO ally that undermines the entire idea behind NATO. And I'll remind you, the only time that the mutual protection, the mutual security guarantee of NATO has been invoked was on behalf of the United States after the attacks of 9, 11, where those Danes who served and died alongside Americans went to Afghanistan. So Congress can and should take up and pass a War Powers resolution to restrain the use of force against NATO allies. My hope is that won't be necessary, but it may very well. There are different bills that have been introduced in both the Senate and the House that would restrain the president's use of tariffs against NATO allies or restrain the president's use of force against NATO allies. NATO is strongly supported in Congress, in both the House and Senate because for more than 75 years it's kept the peace in Europe and it's helped keep America secure and prosperous. Again, the only folks cheering this development are Xi Jinping of China and Vladimir Putin of Russia.
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A
At this point, how many Republicans do you think can speak publicly and live up to their pledge to restrain the president the way you just did?
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D
We'll have to see, because as of the time I was leaving Washington, a lot of folks were still saying, oh, this is just an idle threat, or we need to see how this plays out and we're not ready to take any tough public steps. But as this has become clearer and clearer as a real threat to our security, to our economy, to our future as a country, more are willing to they're hoping that private conversations will achieve that objective. And that's going on right now. There are members who've been making real efforts to get the president to reconsider. But if not, when we get back into session next week, we're going to need to move ahead.
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Senator Chris Coons, always good to see you. Thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it.
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D
Thank you, Vienna.
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A
Turning now to President Trump's plans to hold a signing ceremony for his Gaza Board of Peace. It's part of his 20 point plan to end the Israel Hamas war and oversee the reconstruction of Gaza. Many countries received an invitation, including Russian President Putin and Belarusian President Lukashenko. But since the administration revealed its plan, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has expressed frustration at the inclusion of Turkey and Qatar as key in key committee roles, citing a lack of coordination from the United States. Opposition leader Yair Lapid also agreed, saying, this is a, quote, diplomatic failure for Israel. So let's bring in correspondent Jeremy Dimon for more details. And, Jeremy, specifically, as it relates to Israel and their pushback on the inclusion of Turkey and Qatar on this board of peace. How much of this is just the Israeli government and the Prime Minister, for his part, publicly posturing his outrage or, or is there real daylight behind the scenes between the Trump administration and the Netanyahu government on the planning for this board of peace?
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Well, there's no question that it certainly is. The former the Israeli Prime Minister needs to make kind of a big public statement here in Israel where even opposition figures such as Yair Lapid have been, you know, expressed some degree of outrage that Turkey and Qatar are going to be involved in post Gaza governance. But there does also seem to be, you know, some friction here, some real friction between the United States and Israel over the formation of this executive committee to oversee the technocratic officials, Palestinian officials, who will actually implement the day to day governance of the Gaza Strip. Some of that is indeed over the inclusion of Turkey and Qatar as members of this executive board overseeing seeing Gaza governance. It is important to note that while the Israeli Prime Minister has talked about Qatar and Turkey's roles in terms of harboring and at times financing Hamas, they also were the two countries that were critical to getting Hamas on board with the cease fire agreement that has resulted in the last three months of a ceasefire and the return of all Israeli hostages, minus one deceased hostage, whose body is still inside of Gaza. But there have been other friction points as of late as well. Remember Israel committed on January 1 after Prime Minister Netanyahu met with President Trump to open that Rafah crossing for Palestinians to go back and forth between Gaza and Egypt. That still has not happened amid some of these friction points that are still very much ongoing. The Israelis, of course, were also upset at the fact that the United States announced the move to phase two before the body of that last deceased hostage, Ron Gvili, could be brought back to Israel for burial. And I think in some ways the United States and Jared Kushner and the team that has kind of been working to push this ceasefire along are very much trying to kind of take back control of what goes on in Gaza. And when things happen in Gaza, and in the background of all this, it's important to note that the Israeli Prime Minister and the Israeli military are preparing for a potential ground offensive in Gaza. Military plans very much being cooked up at the moment for a potential return to war, in the same way that Hamas has also been preparing for a potential return to war, primarily over this issue of Hamas's disarmament. So there are a lot of friction points current and also that may lay ahead in the coming weeks and months ahead of this phase two agreement. And some of that, of course, does center on the governance of Gaza and the next steps there.
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A
And this Board of Peace, though, Jeremy, seems to have ambitions far wider than just the rehabilitation and the rebuilding of Gaza. There have been those that have suggested this is a sort of trial balloon for a replacement for the United nations. And invitations have gone out to capitals around the world. Is that what the ultimate goal is here for the administration?
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E
I mean, it increasingly looks that way. And the president himself kind of hinted at that in an interview with Reuters last week where he talked about the Board of Peace being, you know, used to manage and resolve conflicts around the world as they continue to crop up. And in fact, this charter that was sent around to world leaders who were invited to join, which we've confirmed with sources that the authenticity of this charter, it doesn't mention Gaza at all. It talks broadly, very broadly, about conflicts around the world and the role that this Board of Peace could have. US Officials have talked about, you know, the inefficiency of other mechanisms to resolve conflicts around the world. And we know, of course, that President Trump and his administration have been very critical not only of the United nations, but kind of of the concept of multilateralism in general. And so in many ways, this does increasingly seem like an effort to kind of supplant the role of the United nations, the United Nations Security Council in particular. And I think that's why you're seeing some reticence in particular on the part of European officials who not only balked at the inclusion of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who is invited to join this Board of Peace, but more broadly have concerns about what the actual intention of the creation of this Board of Peace actually is beyond the Gaza Strip. And so it seems like there are some last minute kind of backroom conversations before President Trump has this event at Davos to kind of unveil this Board of Peace with European diplomats and officials trying to very much change some of the language in this charter and get a better grasp of what the actual intention is here.
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Jeremy Dimon in Jerusalem for us. Thank you so much. Later in the program, as protesters continue to rally against the south surge of federal agents in Minnesota, journalist and Minnesota native Lydia Ping tells me what she witnessed in her home state.
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Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper.
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On my podcast All There Is, we.
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Explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are.
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It's not a thing where time heals all wounds.
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My guest is legendary rock musician, writer, poet Patti Smith.
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- [24:18]
A
I glimpsed a civil war. Those are the words of our next guest who's witnessed Donald Trump's ongoing immigration crackdown in Minneapolis. New York Times columnist Lydia Polgrain is a Minnesota native, and in her latest op ed, she calls the administration's mission there a, quote, spectacle of cruelty. As demonstrations against federal immigration agents continue, the Pentagon has some 1500 active duty soldiers preparing for possible deployment to the state. Meantime, Minnesotans are still seeking justice for the death of Renee Good. Sources say the FBI has shifted its focus from a probe into the agent who shot Good to an investigation into the conduct of protesters who were around her at the time. And now the DOJ is fighting a federal court order restraining ICE's aggressive tactics in Minnesota. Lydia Polgrain joins us now to unpack what's going on in Minneapolis and across America. Lydia, it's good to see you. Welcome to the program. So in that New York Times piece you write, Minnesota is under siege, not just immigration enforcement, but an occupation designed to punish and terrorize. You say this as someone who has covered wars, civil wars abroad, so I would imagine you don't use those words lightly. What is it that you saw that brought you to that stunning opinion?
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Well, you know, we've all seen the viral videos, obviously, the killing of Renee Goode, you know, the people who are being dragged out of cars after having their windows smashed. There was the disabled woman who was almost kind of hogtied and carried down a residential street in Minneapolis. So we are getting these glimpses and snapshots of what's happening, but in fact, there's just a broader atmosphere of intimidation. And I think I would go so far as to call it terror. You have people like the mayor of Minneapolis. I'm sorry, people like the mayor of St. Paul who came to the United States as a Hmong refugee at the age of three, who told me that she carries her proof of citizenship with her everywhere she goes because she's worried that if she was stopped by ice, they don't determine your status. They're basically detaining further and then asking questions later. And in fact, a family friend of hers was that gentleman that we all saw on social media who was dragged out an elderly gentleman who was dragged out of his home in his boxer shorts with just a light blanket draped over his shoulders. This is a place where, with the wind chill factored in, you're talking about minus 20 degrees. This guy was wearing boxer shorts and Crocs. So, you know, school desks are empty across the state because, you know, children of immigrants are afraid to send their children to school. You've got all kinds of people who are just engaging in expressing their First Amendment rights by videotaping the activities of ICE or asking questions or trying to delay or distract ICE who are getting arrested. We have U.S. citizens, we have Native Americans, people who have been on this land longer than any of us who are getting caught up in this. So it really is an extraordinary reign of terror that's happening in Minnesota right now.
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A
Yeah. And the administration hasn't ruled out further escalation, including the president invoking the Insurrection act and the deployment of potentially thousands of more troops that are now stationed in Alaska. Judging by just what you've witnessed and what you've heard from Minnesotans there, what would that do to further divide the tensions between law enforcement officials there and residents?
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Yeah, I think one of the things that's been really extraordinary about the responses of people living in Minnesota is that it has been, you know, it has been very much out in the streets and people are very organized, but it's been extraordinarily disciplined. I think there is a desire to see this as, you know, kind of rioting. Domestic terrorists is what the Trump administration is trying to call the people who are coming out to protect their neighbors. The problem is that you're going to see an increased facing confrontation. And I saw this on the ground where you have the Minneapolis Police Department, you have other state law enforcement bodies that are really kind of caught in the middle between, you know, the federal agents who are there to carry out what they call as an immigration mission and local law enforcement who are, you know, frankly, getting flooded with 911 calls and emergencies because of the activities that ICE is engaged in right now. And I think if you imagine adding another layer of active duty troops on top of that, I think you're looking at a really combustible situation. You know, Governor Tim Walls of Minnesota has called in the National Guard, and they, on social media, they. They said that the National Guard will be wearing these yellow reflective vests, and that's how you could tell the difference between one side and the other. And, you know, this is. This is really, you know, kind of redolent of other kinds of conflicts that you've seen, you know, where you have the blue and the red and the American Revolution, you know, and it' so it's really shocking to think about those types of confrontations.
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A
And he hasn't deployed the National Guard just yet, but he says that they are at the ready. It's now been two weeks since, or nearly two weeks since the shooting of Renee Goode. Now, ICE says that there have been 3,000 arrests under Operation Metro Surge and that they are targeting the worst of the worst. We don't know much about who they've detained. What can you tell us from your reporting about who these people are? Are they people who are indeed the worst of the worst with criminal records that are here illegally?
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Well, as we've seen nationwide, an ever diminishing percentage of those who are arrested in these detained, I think it's fair to even call them abducted in these circumstances, are not criminals. I mean, I think at this point, the national numbers, which go back to about October, say that 70% of the people who have detained have not even a traffic violation in their background. So it's sweeping up everybody. But, you know, one, one morning when I was there, it was incredibly cold and I rolled up on a corner where I found some volunteers who'd been patrolling the neighborhood near a school. And I had just missed an ICE encounter between two girls, one who seemed to be a teenager, the other who seemed almost preteen, and they had a little white dog in their pickup truck with them. I think the older the older teenager was dropping another child off at. And it's really hard to imagine how children of that age could possibly be the worst of the worst. I mean, this little girl that they were handcuffing and putting into their vehicle, to my eye, didn't look older than 12. So when you say the worst of the worst, it's hard to know exactly what you mean. It just doesn't. It really beggars belief.
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A
And we've heard the state officials, the governor, Mike Walsh, we've heard Jacob Fry, the mayor of Minneapolis, warn residents not to escalate and not to use this as an excuse for ICE officials to become much more aggressive in their tactics. They are arguing ICE officials that some of these tactics are obstructing them from doing their jobs. And thus it is some of these protesters that are escalating tensions. What have you seen when you've been there in terms of protester escalation? We should remind viewers that the weather temperatures here are far colder than, I believe, even Greenland Today and in Davos, where we've been covering the other part of the show.
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F
Yes, it's incredibly cold. And I think that's another thing that makes it remarkable to see how Minnesotans are out in force now. Minnesotans are very tough people. They think of themselves as the North Star, providing a kind of moral guidance to the country, which I think very much is the spirit that I grew up with. But, yeah, I think that you are definitely seeing protesters go out there and quite forcefully assert their First Amendment rights. I did not see any. Anything that I would even remotely characterize as violence. Are people blowing whistles? Absolutely. Are they following cars, ICE vehicles that they've identified? Absolutely. Are they obeying the traffic laws and not running red lights, which is something that the ICE vehicles have been doing? They are obeying the laws. You know, I was on the streets during a very tense confrontation after a Venezuelan man had been shot in a neighborhood in north Minneapolis. And, you know, the protesters were extremely vocal, but, you know, there was no throwing of rocks. There was no attempt to block the road roads or to interfere with anything that they were doing. The tactics really seem to be walking right up to the edge of what would be considered obstruction. So filming, delaying, distracting, things like that is the overwhelming mandate. And the other thing that people are doing that, you know, really has nothing to do with, you know, obstructing or delaying is they're just trying to help people. There are lots of people who are sheltering in their homes. You know, there are these. These. These big text message networks by which people organize dispatching food deliveries to people who are afraid to leave home to go to work or to go to the grocery store. Just a huge amount of solidarity among residents of Minneapolis St. Paul, and indeed the entire metropolitan area.
- [34:04]
A
Yeah, we should note the Department of Justice has opened an investigation into obstruction charges against the governor and the mayor. And that hasn't deterred them from continuing to speak publicly and encouraging their citizens to use their constitutional rights, but also not to fall into the trap of escalating to the point where we are seeing more violence on the streets. Let's play sound from the mayor, Jacob Fry, from over the weekend with our Jake Tapper.
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We're not going to be intimidated if the goal here is safety.
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We've got many mechanisms to achieve safety, and.
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And the best way to get safety.
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Is not to have an influx of even more agents, and in this case, military, in Minneapolis. I never thought in a million years that we would be invaded by our own federal government.
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A
And he also issued a warning to Americans that this could be a case study for something similar happening in your own cities. Why is it that the administration has focused on Minneapolis, on the state of Minnesota, and do the numbers back up this type of action?
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F
Well, it's ironic because, you know, Minnesota actually has a rate of undocumented immigrants that is half that of the national average. This is a state that is about 75% white. So I think that the reasons for, there are many reasons for targeting Minnesota. Obviously, Governor Tim Walz was on the ticket that opposed, you know, Donald Trump and J.D. vance in 20 in the 2024 election. You know, ostensibly the reason that has been given by the federal government for going into, into Minnesota is, you know, I think, a very clear and well documented and quite massive fraud case that was being investigated involving many members of the Somali American community. That is an investigation that was actually started during the Biden administration. There have been dozens of arrests and convictions already. So there are lots of reasons on paper. To me, as someone who's from Minnesota, I think that really what this is, though, is an assault on a state that represents in some ways the kind of polar opposite of what the Trump administration and what Donald Trump himself and Stephen Miller, his sort of henchmen, are trying to impose upon the United States. This is a state that has a long history of welcoming refugees, of, you know, really robust civil services, that really believes in neighbors helping neighbors. And I think that they're trying to teach Minnesota a lesson.
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A
Yeah. Lydia Polgreen, you go from one cold state to another here. Brutally cold temperatures in New York. But welcome back home. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Hear the New York police sirens there behind you. All right, coming, coming up for us, how Trump's funding cuts and immigration policies are crippling US Medical research. Co founder of Moderna, Noubar Afeyan tells Walter Isaacson about the importance of choosing science again. That's after the break.
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I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.
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Just the whole notion of replacing pieces.
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Of our how do we do that? Why do we do it?
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That's one of my favorite science writers, Mary Roach. For years, she's explored big questions about the human body. This time, however, she's turned her attention.
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To humanity's long fascination with replacing body parts. And the book is called Replaceable You.
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We're gonna talk about what breakthroughs are.
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Already changing lives, what's still a work.
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In progress, and what it really means.
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To replace parts of yourself that work just as well, or maybe even better.
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Listen to Chasing life.
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Streaming now wherever you get your podcasts. Tev I got news for your ears. The podcast I am your host, Michael Ian Black.
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F
Streets aren't safe.
- [38:23]
A
Kids can't go to school like they're.
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B
Yeah, they shut down schools for at.
- [38:28]
E
Least a couple days last week because.
- [38:30]
D
You know, a block away they're tear down. I've heard of a snow day, but an ice day?
- [38:33]
B
Hey.
- [38:37]
E
That'S why he's a panelist on this show. That's how he got he's so excited.
- [38:41]
D
To be on camera.
- [38:42]
C
Have I got news for your ears.
- [38:44]
B
Releases new episodes every Wednesday.
- [38:47]
D
Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:56]
A
$3 billion. That is the estimated amount of funds left unspent this past year after the Trump administration froze or terminated thousands of grants for the National Institutes of Health, Health and the National Science Foundation. Trump's stance on science has been notably critical in his second term, making inflammatory statements on everything from vaccines to autism. At the same time, the US has experienced growing public health complications, including measles cases surging last year to their highest level in decades. Best known for co founding the biotech company Moderna, Noubar Afayan joins Walter Isaacson to discuss why the US should be choosing science.
- [39:37]
G
Thank you. Bianna and Noubar Afeyan, welcome back to the show.
- [39:41]
B
Great to be back.
- [39:42]
G
Walter, every year you write a letter about the miracles that are happening in biotech. And I read yours this year and it hit me suddenly that you had something you were very angry about, too. You said things you'd not seen in 40 years in biotech. And let me read you what you said. While we're closer than ever to realizing biotechnology's full potential to make Mirac, we're also closer than ever to throwing that potential away. We're at a risk of taking a sledgehammer to our miracle machine. What were you talking about?
- [40:18]
B
Well, Walter, as you know, the biotech industry, the pharmaceutical industry is one of a few science based industries that is that the work that we do as a society to make new findings of mechanisms of disease, new targets and ultimately new drugs and vaccines is very much predicated on a robust scientific enterprise which in this country has operated as a partnership between the government and private sector and is entirely based on the scientific method. And what we're seeing in the recent past is a level of attack on the output of science and on what the scientific community considers as the most objective facts based on all the evidence that is being basically attacked without any countervailing Data. And what worries me is that since that's such a foundation of this entire biotech enterprise and broadly the $3.2 trillion of economic value that comes from the medicines enterprise, that we risk to lose what has really been a mainly US based industry. And that worries me because it's coming at the worst possible time in view of all the opportunities that are coming out with technology and with all the new findings.
- [41:42]
G
Well, let's start with those opportunities. You say we're risking throwing them away, but let's just do a few in the past year that shows what we were able to do. And one of them is in an injection that would stop HIV infection, right?
- [41:57]
B
Right, yes. And so we've seen an injection that on a twice yearly basis can essentially stop HIV from, from, from persisting, propagating and the impact of that on the, the life of the people in involved, not just therapeutically but from a ability to live with this terrible disease is just really a life changer. And not only that, but the company Gilead AT Sciences, which I don't have anything to do with, but I'm very proud of as a member of the biotech industry, has also worked with governments to make this available to low to middle income countries. Together with the Gates foundation and others that I think is really taking the miracles and bringing them to as many people as possible. And so that's a really good example of a scientific idea and discovery going all the way to affecting people's lives. And we have many, many more.
- [42:54]
G
Well, one of the other miracles this past year was using what Jennifer Doudna helped create in terms of gene editing, CRISPR technology. There was a kid, K.J. a newborn baby who had a very rare genetic disease. Explain how that is a new frontier too that we had last year.
- [43:14]
B
You know we hear a lot about chronic diseases because many people are afflicted with them them which essentially makes what's called rare genetic diseases, some of them ultra rare diseases, some of them there's 10 people on the planet that have it almost hopeless because there's no economic case that could be made to develop a treatment for them. But gene editing that allowed us to target the company that worked on this and the researchers, academic hospital researchers that could basically design a one off treatment to correct that error, inborn error that then leads to the disease that is not only a lifesaver for the child who was basically the first case, but also gives hope to many others with other similar errors that can be corrected with the same technology. So it's this reusability the programmability of nucleic acid based medicines that we learned about about a decade or more ago through MRNA through even sirna. Now we're seeing with gene editing and again, it gives what seems like a miraculous hope, but in reality it's been reduced to practice and it's a man made, human made miracle.
- [44:31]
G
Okay, those are the miracles. Now let's get to the bad news that you've talked about. You write, I fear we are headed for a dystopian future of disease, disease, deprivation and decline. Let's go through the factors. Is one of them the cutting of federal funding for research?
- [44:51]
B
Well, look, since the Vannevar Bush Frontiers kind of efforts that after World War II established the rationale for federal funding and very generous and growing federal funding that was behind many of the scientific advances through nsf, through NIH over the last decades, we have enjoyed an expansive progressive period where investments by the government, federal government, taxpayer dollars into the advancements in basic and then applied science produced the thousands of inventions and advances and papers that then led eventually to practical applications, medicines, vaccines, diagnostics, et cetera, that has been to the benefit of American citizens and then the whole globe who's come to depend on essentially that public private partnership. What we're seeing now with a fairly indiscriminate reduction of funding through the NIH and nsf. And I say indiscriminate because it's not specific to one science project. You might think that's fair to cut across the board, but actually cutting across the board just means that the enterprise is not valued. And I do think that the notion that we can rely on other people funding basic research and then cherry pick the things that we like to develop in this country is completely not feasible. So yes, I do think that's one of the ways in which the scientific enterprise is becoming crippled.
- [46:26]
G
So what is happening with the cooperation with universities and the federal government?
- [46:33]
B
Look, we've gone through a period where we've had budgets proposed that reduce NIH funding, NSF funding to the tune of 25 to 40%. Fortunately, very recently Congress has pushed back on this and it looks like the full extent of those reductions will not be realized. And I'm glad for that. But the mere suggestion question that it should be our policy to dramatically reduce the funding of that type of academic research. And you're right in pointing out to me that most of what I was just mentioning starts with a significant investment in academic research that is something that we need to protect. And it's really kind of sacrosanct in the way the whole downstream process occurs. You cut off the root and everything else downstream from that will absolutely suffer.
- [47:24]
G
But is that just the money for the universities? The fellowships are gone, visas are gone. And there seems to be a concerted attack against research universities.
- [47:34]
B
Look, I don't understand it. You know, most people who consider themselves world class want to go where world class competition is, and that's been in the U.S. the notion that we would exclude essentially students from different parts of the world world, or make it difficult for them, not give them visa appointments even if they've gotten in and they've gotten. I mean, this is their life dream. We don't benefit from those students for just the five years that they do a PhD program. We benefit from them for decades because many, if not most of them want to stay here and contribute productively. So, yeah, this is a surprising, in my view, regression. And I'll say, Walter, and I can say this having experienced it in my life life, I view myself as an American by choice. I became.
- [48:21]
A
All right. President Donald Trump is speaking now at the White House press briefing. Let's listen in.
- [48:25]
C
These are the accomplishments of what we've produced all page after page after page, individual things. I could stand here and read it for a week and we wouldn't be finished. But we've done more than any other administration has done by far in terms of military, in terms of ending wars, in terms of completing wars. Nobody's really seen very much like it. I think it's appropriate that because Minnesota is so much in the, in the fray. And I say to my people all the time, and they're so busy doing other things, they don't say it like they should. They're apprehending murderers and drug dealers and a lot of bad people. And these are just some of the more recent ones that we have. And I can show you some of the people vicious, many of them murderers. These are all out of Minnesota, just Minnesota. I say, why don't you talk about that more? Because people don't know. Do you want to live with these people? International murder. These are people that are living were they're apprehended and either put in jails in their country from where they came. And the countries respect us. And so they actually put them there. In the old days, they didn't respect our country. Biden wouldn't do this because. Because he let them all in. You know, if you didn't have open border policies of Biden, none of this, all of the things that we all of the time that we spend talking about Minnesota and everything else, most of them are coming from out of the country and it's been caused by a previous administrator. Look at this one after a one. Boy, these are rough characters. These are all criminal illegal aliens that in many cases they're murderers. They're drug lords, drug dealers. They're the mentally insane. There's some of them who are brutal killers. They're mentally insane. They're killers, but they're insane. These are just in Minnesota and California it's worse. In other states, it's worse. Now Minnesota, the crime is incredible. The financial crimes are incredible. And the problem is because of the agitators and insurrectionists. Whatever you want, troublemakers, but they're paid agitators and insurrectionists. Nobody talks about the fact that $19 billion at a minimum is missing in Minnesota. Given to a large degree, but by Somalians, they've taken it. Somalians, can you imagine? And they don't do it. A lot of very low IQ people, they don't do it. Other people work it out and they get them money and they go out and buy Mercedes Benzes and they come from here. They have no money. They never had money. They never had a life. They never had a gun. Government that never had a country because there's basically no country. Somalia is not even a country. They don't have anything that resembles a country. And if it is a country, it's considered just about the worst in the world. They come here and they become rich and they don't have a job. Another one. And I have. Oh, by the way, we just took out. That's right. These are all what ICE is doing and it's a danger. These are rough people, weapons. This one here is very bad. I'm going through this because I think we have plenty of time. I'm going to place people, beautiful place in Switzerland where we'll be. I'm sure I'm very happily awaited for in Switzerland, they don't know about this. They don't have this problem. They have other problems, but they don't have this problem. Look, killed somebody. And these are rough people. These are not. This was all allowed into our country through open borders. The dumbest policies, you know, men and women's sports is dumb. But to me, having an open border for the world to come in drug dealers and prisoners. Venezuela, as an example, opened their prisons into the United States. That's why one of the reasons I felt so strongly against Venezuela, now I'm loving Venezuela. And they've been working with Us so. Well, it's been so nice. And an unbelievably nice woman also did a very incredible thing, as you know, a few days ago. She's. We're talking to her, and maybe we can get her involved in some way. I'd love to be able to do that, Maria. Maybe we can do that. But we're dealing with the people invented the president and all of the people, people in Venezuela, and we've been doing great. The oil companies are getting ready to make massive investments there. They have more oil than even Saudi Arabia. There you go. These are real. These are rough. This is all Minnesota, every one of them. This is one state out of many. And these people are. Let's see. Yeah, these are all, so far, people that came from outside of the country. They were allowed in by Sleepy Joe Biden, crooked Joe Biden, whichever you like. You can call him whatever you like. They're both right. He's sleepy and he's crooked. He was the worst president we've ever had. And we've had some bad ones, too, I can tell you. All you have to do is look at trade. You're not getting bored with this, right? I hope you don't. But these are people that you have to see. Strong arm, rape, aggravated assault with a weapon, and many other crimes. Gang member known as one of the toughest people around. These are tough people. So this is what the people are trying to protect. Because all ICE wants to do is get them out of our country. Bring them to prisons and jails and mental institutions from where they came. That's all they want to do to. They're patriots, and they have to be abused by guys like Don Lemon, who's a, you know, loser, lightweight. I saw him. The way he walked in that church. It was terrible. I have such respect for that pastor. He was so calm. He was so nice. He was just accosted. What they did in that church was horrible yesterday. Look at this. 24 convictions. 24 times convicted. Not charges. These are convictions. So he comes from outside the country. Do you think he's going to be good here? He's convicted 24 times. He's going to be good here. Right? It doesn't work that way. He's a man murderer. One of many. One of many. All they want to do is get him out. They want to take him out of our country. And we're met with. With paid agitators and insurrectionists. Troublemakers. They're paid. You know, when the woman was shot, and I felt terribly about that, and I Understand both sides of it. But when she was shot, there was another woman that was screaming, shame, shame, shame, shame. Right? You saw it so loud, like a professional operation singer. She was so loud and so professional. She wasn't a woman that was hurt, like all my heart's injured. She was a professional. Shame, shame. She's screaming, shame, shame. I said, that's not a normal person. That's. That's a professional. These are professional agitators and professional people that want to see our country do badly. But that's not happening because we have the hottest country anywhere in the world, despite this. Now look at this. All top of the line criminals. They're not going to be good. They're not going to be well behaved here. I could do. I could do thousands. We had over 3,000 in the last. Fairly short. Well, just in Minnesota. What's the number, Carol? 10,000.
- [57:43]
E
10,000 criminals arrested in Minnesota alone.
- [57:46]
C
10,000 criminals. And these are serious criminals. Now, how can a place with 10,000 criminals, how can you have a state. And yet they're fighting us. I like that guy. He keeps nodding to me. You agree with me? I guess I like him. I don't know who he is, but I like him. He keeps nodding. He says, you're right. He's obviously a little on the right side. Rabie, look, these are rough ones. So this, we just took this off a stack. We have many stacks like this. Like I could go 30 times what I'm showing you now. Relationship with Hezbollah. That's nice. Why do we allow them in our country? I'm just looking at these charges. It's just pretty incredible. Many murderers. Many, many murderers. People that murder. So what ICE does. And Border Patrol is incredible, too. I mean, they're Paul Perez and that group is incredible. Mostly Hispanic, by the way. They're like 60% Hispanic. You know, they talk about Hispanic. They're mostly Hispanic, right? And they're unbelievable people. And then they say, oh, we discriminate against. I love Hispanic. They are unbelievable entrepreneurial. They have everything. I did great. I did the highest. Nobody ever got numbers like I got from the standpoint of being a Republican. But even the. If you look at Texas, I won the entire border along Texas between Texas and Mexico. Never happened before. Nobody's ever done that before. I did it it as a Republican. I did it. I love the Hispanic. And they accuse us of all sorts of things. 60% of the people we're talking about, they're the best people we have. And they're Hispanic. The Border Patrol is largely Hispanic. ICE is largely Hispanic. They're unbelievable people. I don't know how they can take the abuse. They're taking rough. They're taking rough. People like this, like all of them. We have so we have 10,000 at least. I could have done 10,000.