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A
What if one trip to Australia left you with a best friend for life? Zoe and I met traveling in Australia 30 years ago. It was like bing, bing. We were just magnetic. And now you're back. Did anything surprise you? I did not expect to find fine dining in the outback. I'm blue crabs with oziprl and scalpel Caviar. Wow, that's good. As soon as we get back together, it's like no time has passed.
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B
It makes sense that our friendship would grow here.
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A
Learn more about Zoe and sarah's journey@australia.com and start planning the vacation of a lifetime. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. The Venezuelan strongman Nicolas Maduro pleads not guilty to narco terrorism charges in New York after being captured by the United States in an audacious military operation over the weekend. We get the details from the courtroom and I asked former acting US Ambassador to Venezuela, Todd Robinson whether the US should run the country as Trump says. Then Maduro's deputy becomes acting Venezuelan president Trump dismiss the country's opposition party. I speak with one of those politicians, David Smolensky. Plus, if this is the new Trump doctrine, could Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Greenland, Iran be next? Former Mexican Foreign Minister Jorge Castaneda joins me with the big picture. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Not guilty, completely innocent. So say the ousted President Nicolas Maduro and his wife in a New York court today. This comes just days after a stunning operation saw US Special forces raid the capital of Venezuela, Caracas, arrest the dictator and his wife from their beds in the dead of night and extract them to the United States to face the narco terrorism and weapons charges. President Donald Trump declared his intention was to assert, quote, American dominance in the Western hemisphere. And his number one focus is Venezuela's oil. Maduro's deputy, Delsey Rodriguez, is acting as interim president. But President Trump has made it clear who's really in charge.
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C
Don't ask me who's in charge, because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial.
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A
What does that mean?
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C
That means we're in charge.
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A
Well, he's also threatened Rodriguez with more military action if she doesn't do America's bidding. These extraordinary developments have shaken the international world order, with many legal experts calling America's move blatantly illegal. We'll get into all of that in this hour. But first to New York, where Maduro and his wife did enter that plea in a Manhattan courtroom and are awaiting leaving that place Correspondent Lee Waldman is there. She has some details. So you're waiting for Maduro and his wife to come out. What were the highlights of the court appearance?
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D
Cristian it was a very interesting initial appearance for the ousted Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores. It took about 30 minutes. But the judge granting some leeway here as the couple was using translators to enter in those not guilty pleas. Maduro identifying himself saying I am the president of Venezuela. And when he was asked for his plea, he said, quote, I'm innocent. I am not guilty. Flores on her, her part identified herself as the first lady of Venezuela. And when she was asked for her plea, she said not guilty, completely innocent. At this point, both of their attorneys are not seeking bail. They said that will come at a later point. Now, something else that stood out to us in this courtroom is their attorneys are asking for a medical evaluation for the couple. They appeared bruised. The first lady, her attorney, he was saying specifically asking for a medical evaluation because she had significant injuries, quote, during her abduction. That was a language that was used over and over again when, when Maduro himself was speaking again through the use of that translator. He had said that he was captured from his home. That's giving us some initial insight onto what a possible defense in this case could be. His attorney, Barry Pollack saying that he was a decent man when he entered that not guilty plea and saying that it was a military abduction and that his attorney is saying that they violated the law when he was captured from his home this, this weekend as well as with his wife. So that's giving us some initial insight into what the defense of this might be. Also saying that he should have immunity because he is the leader of this country. The judge at this point is saying that we'll be back in Court on March 17 at 11am to continue moving through what is expected to be a years long prosecution of the couple here.
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A
And Lee, just finally, quickly, meantime, they will spend this time in that jail right in Brooklyn.
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D
Absolutely. So they're going to be taken back to the Metropolitan Detention center in Brooklyn. It's a facility that's seen a lot of high profile inmates, including Sean Diddy Combs. Are Kelly and Luigi Mangione there? So they're being transported back to the prison now.
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A
All right, Leigh, thank you very much indeed for joining us from outside the court there. So the Trump administration insists that Maduro's capture was a law enforcement operation. They were simply carrying out an arrest warrant for the leader of a, quote, narco terrorist organization. But during an emergency United Nations Security Council meeting today. The Secretary General said he was, quote, deeply concerned that rules of international law have not been respected. It is a dramatic return to 19th century gunboat diplomacy. But critics say even a successful operation with no apparent sign of a day after plan is fraught with risk and even failure. So let's bring in Todd Robinson, who served as America's acting ambassador to Venezuela during Trump's first term. He's also served in the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement affairs and therefore is highly qualified to talk to us about this moment. So Ambassador Robinson will welcome to the program. Can I start by asking you just to comment on what we know about what went down in court. So are you surprised with the way it went from the small amounts of detail you've just been listening to?
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B
No, I'm not surprised at all. I mean, the American justice system has a process. This looked like very much a normal process that we've seen before. We saw it with Manuel Noriega in Panama. We saw it with Juan Orlando Hernandez in Honduras. We've seen it with other leaders in the region. So this looked normal. I will say, though, that I'm struck by how Maduro lookedboth. Maduro and his wife looked sort of cowering when just a week ago, he was literally dancing and almost taunting the administration to do something about it.
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A
Yeah, you know, maybe we have the video and we can show. I just want to ask you a what was your reaction when you woke up to hear what had happened in that snatch operation and those that video of him seeming to mock the whole pressure that the administration had put on him? Do you think, knowing what, you know, because you served under Trump 1.0 in Venezuela, do you think that basically could have been a tipping point moment, or was this so definitely on the cards? We hear it was, you know, planned for months. There were rehearsals, there was an informant, there was a CIA intelligence and all of the rest of it?
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B
Well, I don't think we should discount either of those scenarios. You know, there is no doubt that the way this operation went down, tactically, the military was ready to do what it was called upon to do. And I am in awe, as ever, of the United States military ability to do these kinds of operations. They plan rigorously, regularly for things like this, and they're always ready. That said, I think anything is possible. Right? It is possible that the taunting could have caused this. I just don't know. And I think we learn every day over the past year that, you know, anything is possible coming from this Administration.
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A
Okay, so that's one thing we'll get into. What is the next steps you think might be possible? But I just want to focus on the reasons for this. We've been reporting the Trump administration has been saying a number of different things over the months in which they ratcheted up this pressure, sending in that huge naval fleet into the Caribbean, off the coast of Venezuela, building up American base there in Trinidad, et cetera, et cetera. It was, A, about drugs, which is what he's facing in court. B, was it about democracy? C, is it about oil? What is it actually about? Because let's be very, very fair, and I want you to, to confirm this for me. Drug trafficking is, in fact, not a big thing when it comes to Venezuela. It's a transit route, not a producer. The UN says only about 5% of Colombian cocaine passes through Venezuela. 96% of fentanyl seized by the US has been intercepted on the Mexico border. Venezuela has no connection to US. Fentanyl. So can you tell me what you think about the whole drug indictment?
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B
Well, okay, so I think we have to separate the indictment from the reason for why this action was taken. Yeah. It is very clear, if you look at the indictment, that Nicolas Maduro and the people around him, including the Venezuelan military, were involved in narcotics, facilitating narcotics trafficking through Venezuela. Of that there is very little doubt. So let's set that aside, and I think it's frankly gonna be fairly easy for the Southern District of New York to prove that. So let's set that aside. I think the complicating factor is the messages coming out of the White House on this. Why they are, why they did this now, why they have several different stories for why they are doing this, is really quite worrying. I think that's what's worrying the international community. I think that's what's probably worrying members of Congress. There is no clarity on why they are doing what they're doing now. And I have to say, the argument that they were doing it because of drug trafficking in the Eastern Caribbean is really quite weak. I mean, as you noted, 95, 96% of the drugs coming into the United States were coming up from South America through Central America and Mexico to our southwest border. So I. I think, you know, it could be all of those reasons. It could be none of those reasons. Again, this is how we've seen this administration operate over the past year.
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A
Okay? So, again, you know, this administration, and let's just point out one, what appears to be massive contradiction, some might call it an absurdity, when you try to. When you bring this guy in Maduro to face drug charges. And the same President of the United States, Donald Trump, pardons an actual president of Honduras, a former president, Juan Orlando Hernandez, who had been tried and convicted in New York and facing long, long, long jail time, 45 years, for taking bribes from drug traffickers, moving some 400 tons of coke through Honduras to the United States. He gets pardoned. So how are people either in Venezuela or in the rest of the world or in the United States meant to grapple with that?
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B
No, I think you're absolutely right. This is a huge contradiction, and it undermines the credibility, frankly, of the actions that were taken against Maduro. Here you have a president that was also convicted by the Southern District of New York, who clearly was involved in narcotics trafficking, and for some reason, we still don't know why, was pardoned by this administration. And now you have Nicolas Maduro, who is in the same courtroom probably, that Juan Orlando Hernandez was in for basically the same charges being charged by the same prosecutors that prosecuted Juan Orlando Hernandez. I think it's a huge contradiction.
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C
And.
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B
Something, again, that this administration will have to answer.
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A
Um, President Trump also dismissed the idea that the opposition. I mean, for up until now, we've heard the United States and all the international community talk about the opposition as the legitimate opposition who rightly and fairly won the latest election, the 2024 election in Venezuela. They assess that it was stolen by the Maduro regime. And yet now President Trump dismisses Maria Corinna Machado. We're going to get to that in a minute. Says that she's not up to it. She doesn't have the respect of the people or the military. But he does talk almost exclusively, President Trump, about oil. Oil in Venezuela. Here's what he said on Air Force One. Just take a listen.
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C
Remember, they stole our property. It was the greatest theft in the history of America. Nobody has ever stolen our property like they have. They took our oil away from us. They took the infrastructure away. And all that infrastructure is rotted and decayed, and the oil companies are going to go in and rebuild it. We're not going to spend very much money at all, if anything. But the oil companies are going to go. We're going to take our oil back.
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A
So I'm seeing, I think, also Republican Senator Lindsey Graham standing next to President Trump and nodding and nodding and nodding about this. Could you tell us. Because basically, that's what the analysis is. It's about oil. It's about an asset grab. It's about dominance what is the situation? I mean, tell us, for the people who don't know, did Venezuela steal American oil or its contracts or its ability there to work? What is Trump talking about?
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B
I am in a little bit of confusion as the rest of the American people. My understanding is there were, when I was there, there were oil companies, including an American oil company, Chevron, working in Venezuela, number one. Number two, so little of Venezuelan oil was actually coming to the United States. There were a number of other international companies, including from, I think, Norway, working in Venezuela. So I'm not quite sure what this argument about stolen oil is about. What worries me, though, is the point you raised earlier about the opposition seeming to be sidelined. People forget that just a few months ago there was an election in Venezuela, and ordinary Venezuelans in large numbers risk their lives to vote for Edmondo Gonzalez, who I think should be considered the president elect, and the coalition built by Maria Corina Machado. And now we seem to have sidelined them and sidelined the voices of ordinary Venezuelans and appear to be working with part of the regime that kept Venezuela under its thumb. I was stunned at the press conference by the remarks of the president and others in the room. I, I don't frankly understand it. If there is a strategy here, maybe we will see it play out, but I don't see it now.
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A
Okay, so that means we have to ask you the obvious question now. You have, you know, Delsey Rodriguez, the person who was Maduro's deputy, who you just mentioned and has been sworn in as interim Venezuelan president and President Trump and Rubio, the secretary of state, have said about working with her, also holding a, you know, whatever future military intervention over her head if she doesn't do their bidding. So what do you know about her? Why would they double down on her? And what does it mean when Trump says we are running Venezuela? What does that mean?
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B
Well, I'm going to start with the last part of this. I have. I am confused by the president's statement about us running Venezuela. Does that include security? Are we going to take over the banking system, the justice system? You already saw Secretary Rubio walk that back a little bit and say that they were, in fact working with Dulcie Rodriguez. Dulcie Rodriguez is the, was the vice president of the country. She is part of that ruling elite. My guess is she has worked some kind of deal where she will either be able to stay for a while as they work through a transition, perhaps leave after the transition is over. She was part of the ruling elite, the coterie that was benefiting from all of the illegal activity going on at the highest levels of the Maduro regime. So it is clear that she's probably going to benefit if she is allowed to take the ill gotten gains from her time there and either leave and go somewhere outside of Venezuela or try to stay. Although I have to say I don't see a scenario where someone like Delsey Rodriguez can comfortably continue to live in Venezuela after all of this.
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A
Okay, so let's just posit that this is not also regime change, because the regime is still in charge under a pliant, apparently client like Delsey Rodriguez, who Trump and Rubio expect to do their bidding. So what was your experience with her, for instance? You know, does she have control over all the different factions, the power brokers like the military, the Interior minister, all the other things that need to, need to be in line if it's going to be, you know, the US running it through Rodriguez and presumably the rest of the major stakeholders there?
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B
Well, I have a former colleague who described the regime as kind of a hydra, hydra with different heads. And I think Delsey and her brother Jorge Rodriguez were one part of the hydra. I think party leader Diosdalo Cabello, a former military guy, is another part of the hydra. And I think General Vladimir Padrino Lopez is another part of this hydra. Those two, those three, Delsey Rodriguez, Padrino Lopez and Diosdado Cabello continue to be part of the regime in Venezuela. Dios Dabo Cabello was listed in the indictment that came out. Why is he still there? And Maduro and his wife, who are also listed in the indictment here in New York.
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A
Just quickly, Delsey, you met her. These are a lot of questions that need to be asked. You met her. What was she like? I mean, was there any. Yeah, tell me.
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B
She is fervently committed to the Bolivarian system, whatever that means. She was a clear insider. Former President of the National Assembly. A position you can't get unless you're very close to. To the President. To the former President Nicolas Maduro, de facto president. She is cunning, very clever. I found her to be smart, but combative. She is someone who defends and will defend the regime.
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A
Really, really, really interesting. She will defend the regime, but she's meant to be doing sort of the Viceroy's bidding that is the United States. Maybe that Viceroy's Secretary of State Rubio. We don't know what's going on, but his fingerprints are over quite a lot of this as well. It's his baby, according to most analysts. So Ambassador Robinson, thank you very much for joining us. And we're going to continue this conversation now with a member of the opposition. Stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the. One of the most extraordinary features of this whole affair is President Trump's wholesale rejection of Venezuela's opposition. So what part does restoring democracy to the nation play? When asked about the leader, Maria Corinna Machado, whose party was widely credited with winning last year's election, here's what Trump said on Saturday.
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C
I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect to be the leader.
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A
Tough words. Opposition politician David Smolensky is a close aide of Machado and he's joining me now from Washington, D.C. david Smolenski, thank you. And welcome back to our program. We last talked when, you know, Maria Corinna Machado had won the Nobel Prize or it had been announced that she was winning it and she was all in for Trump and the pressure on Maduro and going against quite a lot of Latin American popular or at least government governments who were sort of criticizing this gunboat diplomacy. And she's been rewarded with having been, as they say in the vernacular, dissed by the president of the United States. What is your reaction to that?
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E
Well, Cristian, thank you so much for having me. I think we need to see what is happening in my country since January 3rd. Different chapters here. First of all, we are grateful with President Trump and the US Administration, Secretary Rubio, Secretary Herzog, for the smooth, clean and fast operation that happened in Venezuela on January 3rd, where finally Maduro and his wife are facing justice. This is something that the overwhelming majority of Venezuelans support. And this is a huge step for a democratic and orderly transition. Regarding Maria Corina Machado and President Elect and Mundo Gonzalez Urutia, they have the overwhelming support of Venezuelans. They've got the legitimacy not once but twice. In the case of Maria Correa, Machao was elected in the primary and then when she endorsed President Elect Edmundo Gonzalez, we won and we proved we won the election on July 28, 2024, 70, 30, despite it was an election that lacked transparency and was rigged. But that was the tool that we used to mobilize millions of Venezuelans and has contributed to get to this point. And I don't have any doubt that Maria Corina Machado with President Elect and Mundo Gonzalez are going to to lead the rebuilding of Venezuela.
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A
Okay.
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E
For sure.
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A
Okay, well, that. I'm glad you don't have any doubt. And let's reinforce what you say. Clearly, a majority of Venezuelans and many people around the world, including the Venezuelan diaspora, are delighted about this. Shed no tears for Maduro and his wife, but this is not regime change. And I want to drill down with you on what, you know, Ambassador Robinson just told us because I need to understand what's going on. But first, the issue of respect and, I guess, influence with the military. This is what Mrs. Machado told me in October about, you know, about the support she thought she could call on in Venezuela. He's more isolated than ever, not only locally. I mean, internally even. He doesn't even trust the armed forces or the police. This crazy idea, which is all fake about, you know, arming militias is because he doesn't trust the military. Over 80% of the armed forces are with us. They are also suffering hunger and humiliation, and they want to be part of a secure nation. So she's obviously talking about Maduro and how he's having to, you know, try to get these militias and all the rest of it. But just talk to me about this military thing, because that's what the president of the United States said, that she does not have the command over them, the respect of them, the ability to step in right now. What do you think is the truth there? The reality?
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E
Well, Maria Correa Machao, on that interview that you just showed was totally right. If Maduro had the support of the military and the armed forces, he would have stayed in Venezuela. He would have survived the military operation. It was proven, something that we have said for years, that his inner circle of security was composed by Cuban agents. So definitely he was isolated. He was probably betrayed and he's facing justice. By the way, Cristiano, I have to say something. Maduro is responsible for at least 20,000 illegal detentions, 20,000 innocent Venezuelans that didn't have a right for a lawyer, attorney, didn't have a right sometimes to have a visit from families. They were completely innocent just because they think differently. They were illegally detained. The majority were psychologically tortured and physically tortured. And now it's funny to see Maduro and Celia with their rights being respected. They're having food in the jail, they're having access to an attorney, and they are having the coverage of the news. So this is completely different. What we have been doing through Venezuela, and we're still half. We're still have. There are still. There are still. Sorry, there are still more than 800 political prisoners that need to be released.
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A
Okay, so, but I have not heard President Trump or Secretary of State Rubio say one thing about that. And I'm just amazed, even more amazed by that, by the fact that they have not focused and they are not using the word democracy or anything like that. Maybe Rubio a little bit more, but putting it on hold for now while they do. I don't know what. So I want to know what you think they're going to do. And furthermore, furthermore, what do you make of then? Because you're right, there are very few tears that are going to be shed for Maduro. But Maduro's henchmen and women are still running the country. You just heard the US ambassador under Trump 1.0 saying that that is a fact. So what sense can we make of this? And how do you think there will be a democratic transition?
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E
Well, the beginnings of any transition always are a bit messy and confusing. It's been only 60 hours since this operation happened in my country. I'm sure Secretary Rubio knows very well who Del C. Rodriguez is. Del C. Rodriguez is part of the Sons Cartel. She was a mastermind to open Venezuela's door to China, Russia and Iran. She has been an enabler to allow money, laundry scheme and corruption for Maduro and obviously is someone that you cannot trust and someone that doesn't have any support from Venezuelans. So President Trump was very clear when he said that she could end even worse than Maduro. So I'm optimistic that this will end well. I don't have any doubt and I want to reiterate that Maria Corina Machao and Mundo Gonzalez are going to lead the rebuilding of Venezuela. They are the ones who can guarantee a great alliance with the US a great alliance with the democratic countries in Latin America, a great alliance with the European Union and nations that go beyond. And this is something again, that Venezuelans are celebrating because there has been so much suffering for a long time.
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A
A lot of suffering. You're absolutely right. And we have a report later in the program that will just remind people of that. But Edmundo Gonzalez, who is considered the legitimate winner of the latest elections, made a statement today. This is what he said. He appealed directly to the Venezuelan army to or the military to put him in power where he belongs. Here's what he said. As president of the Venezuelan people, I issue a calm and clear call to the national armed forces and the state security forces. Your duty is to uphold and enforce the sovereign Mandate expressed on July 28, 2024, as Commander in Chief, I remind you that your loyalty is to the Constitution, to the people, and to the Republic. This is a historic moment, and we are approaching it with serenity, clarity and democratic commitment. So that was Sunday, giving the president even more, President Trump, even more time to reflect on that, because it was the United States who declared and believed that his party, he actually won the elections. So my question to you, you're in Washington, you're a political member of the opposition. Who are you talking to and what are you being told? Because President Trump publicly is saying one thing, and Secretary of State, National Security Adviser, and all the other jobs he has, Marco Rubio is saying something slightly different. So what are you meant to understand for those who want to see a real democratic transition and not Maduro, you know, Maduro 2.0 taking over?
- [33:13]
E
Well, here in Washington, D.C. we're having constant and fluent communications with members of the administration, also in Congress, with the House, Senate Republicans, Democrats, obviously, also with multilaterals like the Organization of American States, which tomorrow is having a permanent council. Today was the Security Council session of the United Nations. Again, I think this message that President Elect and Mundo Gonzalez issue was very important because, Cristian, don't you think that the armed forces in Venezuela aren't completely demoralized? This operation was impeccable. It just lasted three hours. There were no US Soldier injured or killed. They found Maduro and Celia Flores very quickly. So they are demoalized. Maduro doesn't trust on them to the point that he had to ask Cuba to provide Cuban agents to protect him and his wife. So Venezuelans are very clear of the type of regime that we have faced, the type of a brutal dictator that Maduro was. And we are working very hard, especially during the last hours, to secure a democratic and orderly transition and to create conditions to have millions of Venezuelans back. Because a lot of Venezuelans, there were almost 9 million Venezuelans who have fled this brutal dictatorship, are ready to go back and be part of the rebuilding.
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A
I fully hear you. I understand what you're saying. Clearly, the military has been demoralized and defanged. You're right. Even Cuba held two days of mourning today because they admitted that some, you know, 30 plus members of their own military or security were the close protection for Maduro. They clearly failed. Um, but my question to you is still, do you think. Let me ask you in a different way. You keep talking about an orderly transition, but there's been no reach out that we can tell, nor any verbal commitment to democracy by President Trump. So do you feel betrayed? Do you feel that Delsey Rodriguez and the other guys who Ambassador Robinson read out, will they voluntarily leave? Will there be a fight internally? What do you think it looks like?
- [35:40]
E
Again, Del C. Rodriguez could end even worse than Nicolas Maduro. As President Trump said. Del C. Rodriguez is a member of the Sans Cartel, is someone very close to to China and Russia. She's a communist since she was very young. She's someone that no one can trust actually she was a mastermind with her brother who is the speaker of the illegitimate congress in Venezuela. Both of them were the mastermind of the rigged election. So she's under a lot of pressure and also she having a lot of tensions inside because the regime is as broken and cracked as ever because no one trusts on each other. So again, I think this is just the beginning. Like every transition, the beginnings are messy, but we have the leadership with credibility and legitimacy to lead the rebuilding.
- [36:49]
A
Okay, well listen, thank you. It's important to hear from you obviously, and the opposition and we will continue to follow this and where it leads and what the day after fully becomes. David Smolanski, thank you very much for joining us and we will be right back after this short break.
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B
Welcome to our ugly home.
- [37:10]
E
Reddit is back for a historically hideous season.
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A
It's our 100th day ugly house. This place is mayhem. That is impressive. And if these walls could talk. Do you cry a lot?
- [37:23]
F
I do.
- [37:24]
A
They'd have a lot to say. What in God's name is this pit? Don't get too close if you see the show. I'm scared of Cat.
- [37:32]
E
Ugliest house in America season premiere Wednesday, January 7th at 8 on HGT.
- [37:43]
A
So let us try to get some more clarity. Where will this go next? Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Iran and Greenland. These are the four countries and territory that President Trump has threatened since striking Venezuela boldly stating that, quote, American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again. Nations though, and some governments are hitting back with the Colombian President Gustavo Petro warning that he himself would take up arms if the United States attacks his country. And Mexican President Claudia Schoenbaum condemning American threats and recent action against her own nation. Take a listen. The history of Latin America is clear and compelling.
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G
Intervention has never brought democracy. It has never generated well being or lasting stability. Only the people themselves can build their own future, decide their path, exercise sovereignty over their natural resources and freely define.
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A
Their form of government. So what are the implications for regional and global order? The former Mexican Foreign Minister Jorge Castanet is joining me now. Welcome back to our program. You've heard the other interviews, and I'm not sure whether you have any more clarity to offer us, who are desperately trying to figure out where this goes next and what was the actual aim of this operation and what might be further aims of the Trump administration. Have you formulated that in your strategic calculus yet?
- [39:12]
F
It's very difficult to do so, Christian, because as Ambassador Robinson, who I know and admire, said, it's very confusing. There are all sorts of rationales that are being put forth by the Trump administration as to what they did this for, what they want, and what the future looks like, not just for Venezuela, but for other countries, if you take seriously, and I think we should, the National Security Strategy document published in December and President Trump's statements in the last couple of days about restoring American dominance in the Western Hemisphere. I think the first thing we have to do is to divide the hemisphere the way it is. American dominance in terms of access to resources, geopolitical closeness, support, ideological affinity, and to a large extent has been the case in what we call the Caribbean Basin for well over 100 years. Now, with the exception of Cuba, Mexico's trade, Dominican Republic's trade, Salvadorian trade, are all with the United States. Tourism is with the United States. Foreign investment in these countries is American. In other words, that dominance that President Trump referred to has already existed for many, many years in this northern part, let's say, of Latin America, the Caribbean Basin. Now, China has become the main trading partner of Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay and Uruguay, and the main investor in Brazil, Argentina and Chile. So what is President Trump going to do? Is he going to force Lula to stop selling soybeans and iron ore to China? How does he intend to achieve that? I'm confused. I really. I'm mystified. I have no idea. But I do think if that's what he's seeking to do, he's biting off a lot more than he can chew.
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A
So he has not actually mentioned China in the aftermath of all of this, but as you say, China is deemed by the administration and several administrations as the great competitor challenger for the US and his actions have sort of demonstrated that he wants to put China back in its box with its tariffs and this and that. But it's really interesting to hear you say how deeply entrenched China is right now in this Western hemisphere, not in its own backyard, but in this Western Hemisphere, where Trump appears to be saying that we have the Western Hemisphere, China has whatever, you know, the Pacific, and Russia has Russia. And it can do whatever it likes with Europe. But you're basically saying that not even in the Western Hemisphere is China being dealt with.
- [42:12]
F
Well, certainly not in what is generally called South America or more specifically the Southern Cone. What Trump has been saying about American dominance is true and has been true for many years in the Caribbean Basin. But I don't see how he can achieve any of this in South America in terms of the Monroe Doctrine and not allowing foreign powers to be present. China is present already. And I don't see how in the world he's going to convince President Lula or even President Milei of Argentina, who is his big buddy, to stop selling soybeans, Argentine soybeans, to China. Who does he want Milei to sell his soybeans to? Can't sell them to the United States. United States is the biggest producer of soybeans in the world.
- [43:10]
A
Right. So let's just move beyond that disconnect, which you pointed out, to another really important issue. Your own president was on national television, broadcast internationally today talking about this situation because Mexico has received fresh threats from President Trump. You know, President Petro of Colombia has Marco Rubio. It's not even a thinly veiled. It's not even it is a direct threat. If I was in Cuba and member of a government in Cuba, I would be worried. I'm paraphrasing right now. That's the Secretary of State of the United States of America. So what do you think is next? Do you think they will build on this military success and move on to Cuba and Mexico and Colombia and all the other countries he's mentioned?
- [44:00]
F
Well, I think there are three different cases, Cristian. In the case of Cuba, I have no doubt that Secretary of State Rubio will do everything he can to pressure, bring greater pressure to bear on the Cuban dictatorship with the hope that it will finally and at long last fall. I'm not sure he will succeed in that. Many American presidents have tried and have failed, but I think that certainly is coming next. The case of Colombia, I think, is more rhetorical than anything else. But probably what President Trump and Secretary Rubio would like to see is that in next year's presidential elections, the Colombian right of center or extreme right is very powerful. Win back the presidency and abandon the Petro pink wave membership for Colombia. The case of Mexico is more complicated because on the one hand, President Trump has achieved most of what he wanted with Mexico under President Sheinbaum. She has done practically everything he has asked for on migration, on drugs, on security, on combating the cartels. Now, when President Trump says Mexico's run by cartels, it's partly true, it's partly false. But he and Secretary Rubio are very optimistic about what Shane Bum is doing in terms of destroying labs, seizing drugs, seizing precursor chemicals entering from China, et cetera, et cetera. What they probably have not asked her yet to do, and they may do so now, is to hand over the political accomplices of the cartels in Mexico, which all happen to be, or most happen to be of her own party or her predecessor's government. And that includes governors of the states of Sinaloa, Sonora, Michoacan, Tamaulipas. It includes the former Secretary of the Navy under Lopez Obrador. It includes many other Morena Party politicians who so far have gotten a free pass from Sheinbaum and from Trump. Maybe now they will. Trump and Rubio will pressure much more on that front.
- [46:22]
A
Really, really fascinating. Something else we need to watch. And then one last question. You know, you've heard from all our interviewees that the current crop in charge and with the blessing of the United States in Venezuela, are Maduro loyalists and very powerful Maduro loyalists. So why do you think the Trump administration has chosen to work with them them instead of empowering the opposition?
- [46:52]
F
I think that, but I'm really just guessing here. I think they believe they can work more and better with Delsey and Jorge Rodriguez, brother and sister team, maybe not entirely with Yozdado Cabello. I don't know if his days are numbered. And unlike with Maria Corina Machado, the question for me, Cristian, that your last guest actually did not really respond to is when will Maria Corina go back to Venezuela? Apparently the airspace has now been opened and so she is probably able to return if she wants to. Is the new Venezuelan government going to allow her to return? Are the United States going to stop her from returning or help her to return? Will there be elections? If there are elections, she will win overwhelmingly. And this entire project of working with the bad guys with the Rodriguez brothers, et cetera, is not gonna work. So either there are no elections or they ban her from running for election like Maduro did. Now that's going to get complicated. Another question, by the way, Cristian, which is interesting, is what is going to happen to the hundreds or 2, 3, 4,000 Cubans security and intelligence personnel in Venezuela? We know that 32 Cuban security people died in a firefight on Saturday, but there's several hundred, if not several thousand more. What happens to them? Do they stay there? Are they sent back to Cuba? Are they thrown in jail by this government? What happens with them? I don't really know. I think there's a lot of questions pending here, Christian, which we really just don't have answers to yet.
- [48:47]
A
We just do not. And that's why we're really pleased to have had all of you and you to wrap this up for us today and lay the groundwork for, you know, the next several weeks and months of our reporting to try to figure out what is this, is it a doctrine, is it going somewhere else? And most specifically, Jorge Castaneda, what Venezuela is going to look like in the next few weeks and months. Thank you so much indeed for being with us. Quite frankly, as we've heard of throughout this program, Venezuelans deserve and they clamor for a better life in what is, after all, one of the richest nations in the world. They've been plagued by rising poverty and systems collapse for more than a decade. The country's health care crisis is a standout example. Due to a lack of economic support from Maduro's government as well as sanctions from abroad. It's been quite rare for international journalists to get a look at the nation's crumbling infrastructure or for local journalists to report under Maduro without fear of retribution. But back in 2019, correspondent Paula Newton from CNN was able to get inside a Venezuelan pediatric hospital to chronicle the widespread suffering caused by a lack of infrastructure and funds for health care providers. Here's an excerpt from that report.
- [50:05]
G
Take a close look. This is an emergency pediatric ward in Venezuela, overcrowded, unbearably hot, run down, rudimentary treatment. Everywhere you look and from nearly every bed and every child, a harrowing story like this one. Natalia Rojas has not named her baby girl. Born in early March during the first countrywide blackout, she's restless, feverish. Doctors suspect meningitis, but there's no way to find out. She needs several tests, Natalia tells me in a scan of her little head, as she puts it, but it can't be done here. Scans, X rays, the blood lab haven't been operational for months. We have been given exclusive access to two pediatric wards by outraged medical staff who say they can take no more. There are shortages of every medicine and medical supply, not even the special formula that Malnourished and Ibert is so desperately in need of.
- [51:06]
A
And just to say first, thank you to Paula Newton for that revealing report from back then. But even now, in the wake of the removal of Maduro, so people who are celebrating his removal told reporters that they still have these Terrible difficulties with medicine and food, hospitals and all the rest of it. So that's a huge job that needs to be fixed for the people of Venezuela. Finally, while this weekend's events mark another turning point in America's often turbulent relations with Venezuela, it's not the first time. The US tried to overthrow Maduro's predecessor, Hugo Chavez, back in April 2002. Now, when I spoke to President Nicolas Maduro shortly after he signed succeeded Chavez in 2014, I asked him about what he thought America wanted from his country. Quite prescient in retrospect. Do you really believe they want to reconquer Latin America? Of course.
- [52:00]
B
Of course I do.
- [52:01]
H
They want first of all the economic control. They have the political control through political classes and elite that govern some of our countries. And they want to have the military control because regrettably, the US elite, they have a project try to establish the hegemony and the control. And in the world of today, it is impossible.
- [52:26]
A
Do you have a message for the us? There's been expelling of diplomats. You did it. They did it. Now you've nominated Mr. Max Arbalez as your new ambassador. Ambassador to Washington. What do you hope to see? What is your message to the United States?
- [52:43]
H
Well, my message is respect, dialogue. That we overcome the visions they have of our country. Precisely. I made a decision to appoint a new ambassador to the the US A man that I trust, great diplomat that knows the world, knows very well the US And I'm certain that he will be very helpful to establish new levels of relations. Don't go to a stalemate, to a blind alley regarding Venezuela and Latin America. Our message to those ruling the US is respect Venezuela, respect Latin America and establish new levels of relation.
- [53:38]
A
Well, maybe there will be a new chapter in relations. For now, Maduro sits in a US jail. That's it. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.