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- [00:05]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:09]
Walter Isaacson
If they don't disarm, we will disarm them. And it'll happen quickly and perhaps violently.
- [00:14]
Christiane Amanpour
As the Gaza ceasefire agreement moves to phase two. There's already a hold up on phase one. Israel slows a deliveries after Hamas fails to release the bodies of all deceased hostages. So what happens next? I asked the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Badr Abdelati, a central player in the negotiations. Then we hear directly from Maria Corinna Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader who won the Nobel Peace Prize, about bringing democracy as American forces gather against her country.
- [00:46]
Jeffrey Goldberg
And America is a wonderful country, a wonderful experiment, that sometimes it's made bad mistakes.
- [00:56]
Christiane Amanpour
Walter Isaacson speaks with the editor of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, about America's own unfinished revolution. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In London, Donald Trump declared that phase two of the Gaza ceasefire has begun, which calls for the establishment of an interim government in Gaza and for the formation of a multinational security force. But Trump acknowledges that, quote, the job is not done on phase one. After Hamas missed the 72 hour deadline for handing over the bodies of all remaining hostages, Israel responded by reducing the humanitarian aid allowed into Gaza. For now, the ceasefire is holding. But the UN reports that the Israeli military quotes continues to kill civilians around the areas to which it has redeployed in Gaza. And Hamas is reasserting its control in areas where Israel has pulled back. As negotiations continue in Egypt, key questions are still unanswered. Will Hamas disarm? Will this deal lead to a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians? Egypt is playing a major role in helping to secure and stabilize Gaza. And I spoke about all of this with the Foreign Minister, Badr Abdelati. Foreign Minister Abdelati, welcome to our program.
- [02:34]
Badr Abdelati
Thank you so much for hosting me, Foreign Minister.
- [02:37]
Christiane Amanpour
You know, there was so much hope and excitement over the ceasefire and you all worked very hard to bring it, but it seems to be hitting some snags already. Can you give us an update? Because I think the Rafah crossing, which is between you and the Gaza Strip for aid, may not yet be open. The Israelis say that the Hamas have not released all the deceased, you know, the remains of the hostages that they must. Can you tell us what's going to happen and what is, what's the situation?
- [03:10]
Badr Abdelati
Well, first of all, we are extremely happy with what happened over the last few days with American leadership. With the direct involvement of President Trump, we've been able to reach this agreement in Sharm El Sheikh. And two days ago, President Trump was there with leaders from all over the world in the City of Peace. And it was a big event, a big celebration, and the mediators signed an important document for ending the war in Gaza. We are now in the process of implementing first phase of the agreement, and then we have to start negotiating on the second phase for phase one. I mean, things are moving well, especially with regard to the release of all hostages, as you know. And we told the American side that as for the remains of the bodies, I mean that collecting the remains will take some time because they are under rubbles and you have a lot of explosive materials devices under the rubbles. So reaching them will be a bit difficult. But we are doing our utmost efforts on the ground in order to collect the deceased bodies and to hand them over to the Israeli side in implementation of the agreement of Sharm El Sheikh Phase one. But we are expecting, of course, the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza, opening of the crossings as soon as possible, and that's very important. And then to focus on the second phase, which will not be easy. It will be difficult. But with the political commitment, with the involvement of President Trump and the United States, with the interest of the international cooperation, I believe that we can reach another agreement on phase two and then clear the way forward for a final conclusion to this conflict, the Palestinian problem, which is considered the core of the conflict in our region.
- [05:47]
Christiane Amanpour
Exactly. Mr. Foreign Minister, do you. Have you got assurances from Israel that they understand what you've just said, that this might take some time? Because we're getting some quite strong demand from an unhappy Israel that the bodies have not yet been returned in totality? And also, do you believe that the Rafah crossing will be open tomorrow?
- [06:11]
Badr Abdelati
Well, first of all, I mean, we have daily channels of communications with the Israelis and we are informing them. Secondly, during the meeting between President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi and President Trump in Sharm El Sheikh the day before, you know, we conveyed the same message. President Sisi spoke very openly that there are some impediments on the ground, and we need to do extra efforts to find and to discover and to collect the remains of the bodies in order to be able to return back them to the Israeli side as soon as possible, because this is part of the deal, of course. As for the opening of the Rafah crossing, as we always say, it's open from the Egyptian side 24 7. And we are working with the Israelis to open their crossings also with Gaza and to allow the flow of Materials, humanitarian aid, medical aid, because the situation on the ground is catastrophic. And we need literally, literally to flood Gaza with food and with relief materials and the medical equipments and the materials.
- [07:35]
Christiane Amanpour
Of course, Foreign Minister, because it's all so new, everybody is looking at what's happening on the ground. So President Trump said in front of all of you, I believe, or in public that they would allow Hamas to essentially police the situation on the ground for a period of time until I suppose there's another, another police force that stood up or a stabilization force. In the meantime, pictures have emerged of Hamas essentially executing certain people on the ground. What do you think that's all about? And do you think Hamas will seize the opportunity to stay as the de facto armed force there because they haven't been disarmed? Obviously, President Trump also says they must be disarmed and if they're not, they'll be forcibly disarmed. Where do you see that?
- [08:30]
Badr Abdelati
Well, Christian, two issues here. Number one is the issue of security arrangement. And we are working very hard on that by providing training to the Palestinian policemen in up to 5,000 troops in cooperation with Jordan in order to be able to deploy them in Gaza, as well as relying on the Palestinian policemen who are staying at homes in Gaza. And if we vetting them and selecting those who are 40 years or under, we can have another 5,000 elements. So in total, we can have 10,000 policemen on the ground who will be entrusted with issues related to law enforcement and policing Gaza. Of course, the second issue is related to what was agreed upon, what was stipulated in the Trump peace plan. And as you know, Hamas announced that it's welcoming this peace plan. So we need to move forward for phase two with all its elements. And we are, we hope and we are looking forward that the two parties will honor their commitments according to this important agreement, because enough is enough. You know, President Trump announced at the end of this war, that should be very clear to everybody, we cannot allow the resumption of hostilities again. People paid a very, very heavy price with hundreds of thousands of people who've been injured, with at least 70,000 people being killed, so suffering in Gaza. And that's why we have to look to the future and to see this golden opportunity in order to implement and to work forward for agreeing on, first of all, implementing all elements of phase one, negotiating and agreeing on phase two. And then we must look to the political horizon, which will of course lead to the two state solution and that will put an end to, to the suffering of the Palestinians and bringing an end to this chapter of conflict, of problems. And we are confident that President Trump, with his determination, with his leadership, with his commitment, we believe that he can do it.
- [11:19]
Christiane Amanpour
And Foreign Minister, because that was not, you know, written down in black and white, the idea of a Palestinian state and how it's going to happen. People have said, oh well, you know, there's a lot of wishful thinking and a lot of nice words that have been written in the 20 point plan. But the real struggle will be this final phase as you just lay it out, because it has defied any resolution for all these decades. So are you convinced as Egypt's foreign minister that this is absolutely part of the plan? That because Benjamin Netanyahu has said, you know, we want to bury any ide, you know, him and his coefficient coalition have spoken against a Palestinian state throughout this war and beyond. So do you think that finally they and the Americans and the stakeholders believe that this is part of this 20 point plan with a, I don't know, a Security Council resolution or a formal negotiating process to bring about a two state solution?
- [12:26]
Badr Abdelati
Well, as you know, we have stages and we have phases. So first of all, ending the war, allow food to enter into Gaza, no annexation, no displacement. And then we have to talk about the early recovery and reconstructions of Gaza. And we will do it. We are planning to host a conference next month, next month in November here in Cairo with the participation of all stakeholders, including of course, the United States, with its leadership, including UN, World Bank, European Union, Germany, France, Gulf Cooperation Councils, all Gulf countries, Japan and others. Everybody is fully committed to participate in this very important conference. And, and of course, we are moving, as I mentioned, step by step. And we believe that in order to bring an end to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the only game in town will be, of course, the establishment of or the realization of the Palestinian state. Don't forget the fact that in New York a few weeks ago during Onga, during the United Nations General assembly session, 142 countries voted in favor of the two state solution with Saudi French initiative. So let's look to the future and let's move one by one, step by step. What's important now to save the life of the people, to bring them food, to bring them shelter, and then to talk about statehood that's in the Trump peace plan as well as the political horizon, which is already on the President Trump peace plan.
- [14:36]
Christiane Amanpour
And final question, I hear you saying, with the involvement of President Trump and his continued involvement, I think everybody knows that the President has huge leverage. And as long as he stays on the issue. It could reap benefits. It was also notable that Prime Minister Netanyahu did not attend the Sharm El Sheikh peace summit. And there are those in your region who are concerned that he has managed to use military power in all the nations that are problem nations for Israel. But they say maybe he doesn't have a strategy and he's not willing for peace, that it's, you know, constantly mowing the lawn, as they say, and resorting to military power when they want. What's your analysis, given that you have a peace agreement with Israel? What's your analysis of Israel's intentions?
- [15:28]
Badr Abdelati
Well, I cannot speak on behalf of the Israelis. We have our peace treaty with Israel and we are fully committed to the agreement, the treaty, of course, as long as the Israeli side is fully committed as well. And things is, I mean, clear on that. Secondly, I can assure you that the mighty power cannot bring stability or security to any country or to the region. We must have a just, comprehensive settlement to this conflict which will respond positively to the aspiration, the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian state. They have the full right, the Palestinian people. Sorry. And they have the full right to have their own independent, viable Palestinian state. And thirdly, as I mentioned, it's all about the involvement and commitments of the United States and President Trump. He's the only person who is capable and able to implement this plan and, of course, on ending this war and not to resume it again. And we have full confidence on his own commitment. And this is what His Excellency President Sisi conveyed to President Trump the day before that. We have faith, we have confidence on President Trump commitment in order to deliver, in order to make sure that all parties will abide by their commitments and of course, to, I mean, abide by the rules of the games, the game of ending the war, of looking to the future, of having peace, prosperity, Mighty power cannot bring peace or security to any country. We must have integration, regional integration. We are ready for integration. We are ready for normalization. Many Arab and Muslim countries are waiting, are standing ready for normalization with Israel. As long as we are settling the Palestinian cause based on the parameters agreed by the international community. And in the heart, of course, the realization of the Palestinian state, which will live in peace and harmony with Israel and providing security, safety, stability to all peoples, including, of course, the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. We are tired, Christian. We are. There is a fatigue, you know. So we must move forward with settling down this conflict. And that's why the only game in town is President Trump peace plan. And we the day before in Sharm el Sheikh, the international community, European countries, Arab countries, Muslim countries, everybody and even Latin American countries, Asian countries, they were there and they said that we are in full support and backing of President Trump and his efforts to put an end to the suffering of the Palestinians and to put an end to this conflict. And we have full confidence on the ability of President Trump to do that.
- [19:14]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, it could really, it could really become something really, really special. And I hope all your confidence is realized because it's an amazing moment. So Foreign Minister Badr Abdelati, thank you very much for joining us.
- [19:28]
Badr Abdelati
Thank you so much for hosting me.
- [19:31]
Christiane Amanpour
Stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.
- [19:38]
Michael Ian Black
TAB I GOT NEWS for your ears, the podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black. It's impossible though, to know what he actually believes about anything, right? Whether he really thinks Portland is burning or whether he's just saying that. There's a lot of talk about the police maybe fighting the National Guard. Maybe it's like, you know, maybe the FedEx guys are gonna be fighting the UPS guys. Have I got news for your ears. Releases new episodes every Wednesday. Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcast.
- [20:17]
Christiane Amanpour
Now my next guest, Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corinna Machado was just awarded the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize. Tireless work promoting democratic rights for the people of Venezuela. That was the citation in 2024 when the Nicolas Maduro regime blocked Machado from running for president. She supported the alternative campaign of Edmundo Gonzalez. The pro Maduro election board though called the race for him despite extensive evidence showing that Gonzalez was the true winner. Now the Trump administration has labeled Maduro a narco terrorist. Yesterday, the White House launched a lethal strike on an alleged the fifth such strike since September. Machado dedicates her Nobel Prize to the suffering people of Venezuela and to President Trump for his decisive support of our cause. She lives in hiding inside Venezuela and she joins us now. Welcome to the program. Maria Carina Machado. Welcome.
- [21:18]
Maria Corina Machado
Thank you very much.
- [21:19]
Christiane Amanpour
So how do you feel because you have been toiling for all these years in danger, you know, to try to change the system in, in Venezuela. How do you feel about this moment?
- [21:36]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, we are very honored, grateful and excited because it's a recognition for a whole society that over 26 years has worked tirelessly, has struggled and has suffered much more charm from a tyranny that it's not a conventional dictatorship. It is a criminal structure, an architecter structure that has taken taken over our country, our Institutions, our resources that has brought poverty intentionally and had made a third of our population the largest migration crisis in the world. A third of our population have been forced to flee Christianity. So we have done great things together. We have worked civically. We won an election last year, presidential election, even though it was in very unfair, extreme cond. And this is a confirmation that the world is supporting the cause for democracy and freedom in our region.
- [22:39]
Christiane Amanpour
And you're in hiding. You know, we're not revealing your location, but you are in Venezuela, which is pretty extraordinary given your situation. Do you think that this Nobel somehow puts a further shield around you? And how will you use it? The recognition and I assume. I'm not sure, but I think there's money that comes with it in the struggle.
- [23:08]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, I do think it increases the cost of the regime to further harm me. After we won the elections, a few hours afterwards, I was accused of terrorism. And all these, all the crimes you can imagine from the regime, the worst repression wave was unleashed. We are talking about thousands and thousands of volunteers that were disappeared or imprisoned, their homes were marked with crosses just because they were defending the vote. The Inter American Commission on Human Rights have called this terrorism of state. The fact finding mission of the United nations have called crimes against humanity. I'm talking about even children that were in prison, women tortured and abused just because they defended their votes. So, of course, we're all under, you know, great harm. There are over 850 prisoners of war that are, you know, our heroes under Maduro's strength. And this is a difficult moment, but I am absolutely convinced that we are finally at the threshold of freedom and democracy because finally all vectors are aligned and the regime is weaker than ever.
- [24:36]
Christiane Amanpour
Christiane, can I ask you, do you ever feel fear? You don't sound it, you don't look it, but there must be a huge amount of pressure. That's one question. And the related question is how do you lead a movement from the shadows? And do you think the opposition is now even more united?
- [24:56]
Maria Corina Machado
Oh, certainly our country is more united than ever. You know, I dare to say there's no other society in our region, perhaps in the world, as cohesive as Venezuelan society. I mean, think about this. 90% of our population wants the same. Not only Maduro to go, but we want our children back home. We want a country in which we can live with dignity, in which we are equal in face of the law, in a country in which you can speak out, in which you can work with solidarity and generosity. We have teared down the barriers Chabismo had built to divide our society. I mean, Venezuela has no religious tensions, racial differences, regional differences, economic or social. I mean, that's why I insist that this is going, even though a great challenge, because the country has been devastated economically and institutionally and turned into the criminal hub of the region. This is going to be an orderly transition because that's what the people want and the center is the people. So that's my answer to you. And I have so much trust in the Venezuelan people that I know this will have huge impact in the region. Christian, Cuba, Nicaragua will fall as well. I mean, this is a unique moment for the Americas.
- [26:24]
Christiane Amanpour
So you're not afraid then? And Maduro called you, what did he call you? A demonic witch when he heard about you being awarded this. You call him soulless. Do you think they dare to hurt you?
- [26:40]
Maria Corina Machado
Oh, yes, I do. They are there. They would dare to do anything to stay in power. But. But at the end, as we speak, he's more isolated than ever, not only locally. I mean, internally even. He doesn't even trust the armed forces or the police. This crazy idea, which is all fake about arming militias is because he doesn't trust the military. Over 80% of the armed forces are with us. They are also suffering hunger and humiliation. And they want to be part of a secure nation, you know, a country that can open our arms. And you will see something, and this is very important. You know, the day Madudo goes out, we will see hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans coming back home from everywhere, from everywhere.
- [27:36]
Christiane Amanpour
So let me dive into that part then. The day Maduro goes out, as you know, and you've, you've talked about it, you just called him the top of a terror, a narco terrorist state. And so does the Trump administration call it a narco terrorist state led by a narco terrorist regime. And they have dowed down their fifth attack on a boat, which they call a drug boat. There is a huge amount of that. This is not so much about drugs maybe, but about regime change. And you yourself have welcomed this US Military intervention. So walk us through that. Why do you want your country's future to be decided by US Military intervention?
- [28:27]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, first of all, regime change was already mandated in absolutely unfair conditions that we want. People used to tell me that I was crazy, that it was absolutely impossible to win with those conditions. We built a legion of over 1 million volunteers. We had no money, we had no media, no one dared to speak. We had no international support whatsoever. My team had been in prison or persecuted since Then I had won a primary with over 90% of the votes and I was banned from participating. And a great brave old man dared to walk, step up and he run as a candidate. The regime thought he had no chance at all to win because no one know him. No one knew him. So we managed to create this incredible civic organization. We won by a landslide. We collected over 85% of the original tally sheets. We brought them to undisclosed areas, we digitized them, we showed them after scanning them to the world. And then Maduro decided to declare war on the Venezuelan people. War. We didn't want this war. He started that war. And we need the help of the President of the United States to stop this war. Because it is about human lives. So any criminal structure remains in power, in control with the sources it gets. In the case of Maduro and his criminal narco terrorism structure is through drug trafficking, gold trafficking, arms trafficking, even human trafficking. And we need to cut those flows from coming in because that's what the regime used for repression and also for, for expanding its criminal activities. And that's what's happening right now. And we totally support it. And actually we're asking other countries in the Caribbean, in Latin America and Europe to join that international coalition.
- [30:45]
Christiane Amanpour
I want to press you on this. The narco trafficking state. This is what Juan Carlos, sorry, Juan Gonzalez, who was President Biden's national security director for the Western Hemisphere told me about this being that essentially only 5% of cocaine flows through Venezuela. This is what he told me.
- [31:05]
Juan Gonzalez
The reason that drugs have never originated from Venezuela in the way that they originate From Colombia, over 95% of the cocaine that comes to the United States comes from Colombia is because Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. They have the largest gold reserves in Latin America. So there's never been a need for them to develop a native drug producing industry.
- [31:26]
Christiane Amanpour
So tell me about that. Because when people look at what's going on, they say, okay, they've used the drug issue to justify getting rid of Maduro. Like they used the non existent WMD issue to get rid of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. So are you, I guess what I'm asking you is are you concerned about that given that it's not as much of. Certainly it's not fentanyl which comes through from China, through Mexico and it's not that much cocaine, relatively speaking.
- [31:58]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, I totally disagree with your guest's statement. Using the FBI's own reports, 2020, 24% of the world trade of cocaine goes through Venezuela. And this is increasing and certainly the regime has turned del cartel de los oles in one of the most powerful criminal structures, having activities all along this continent and other continents as well. Not only that, the regime has promoted criminal structures such as trendiaragua that have criminals operating from Canada to Argentina. Just today, the president of Chile declared that they have proof that the top government of Venezuela, Maduro and Torch, is the intellectual murder of a Venezuelan dissident that was killed in Santiago de Chile a year ago. It was President Borich. You cannot say precisely. It's a. An opinion that comes from the right. So everybody knows that Venezuela is today the main channel of cocaine and that this is a business that has been run by Maduro from Miraflores.
- [33:26]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, here's the thing I'm confused about your relationship with the Trump administration. On the one hand, you welcomed this action. On the other hand, you dedicated your prize to him for his support of your cause. And on the other hand, one of the. One of his. One of his allies or, you know, officials. White House Communications Director Stephen Chung said the Nobel Committee proved they place politics over peace. Sort of disapproving that you got it and the president didn't get it. Have you spoken to President Trump about this? I mean, tell me why you dedicate yours to him.
- [34:04]
Maria Corina Machado
Oh, because it's absolutely fair. And that's what the Venezuelan people feel. We're getting, finally a leadership that is addressing this tragic situation in Venezuela that has been evolving for 26 years, as it should. We have been asked that this criminal structure be addressed using law enforcement, and that's finally what's happening. And I did have the chance to speak on Friday with President Trump, and it was a very good conversation. And I was able to convey to him our gratitude for what he's doing. And I absolutely think he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize because of incredible events that are taking place currently in the world. One of them, certainly, the conflict in the Middle east and Gaza, which has had the support of the whole international community, every single side of it, including Latin America, certainly. But also because he has understood that, you know, Venezuela is in the heart of the Americas, and Maduro has turned our country into a real threat to the national security of the United States and the hemisphere. And we're going to turn Venezuela from that criminal hub into an energy hub that brings prosperity and security to our people first and foremost, but also to the rest of the people of the Western Hemisphere.
- [35:44]
Christiane Amanpour
So, clearly, Venezuela has a massive potential and riches. We know that. But again, to the real critical issue of American involvement You know, in your hemisphere that there's been decades of it and it hasn't all gone really well. Also, I wonder whether you were surprised that your, well, the president of Mexico did not join in the huge congratulations around the world citing national sovereignty and self determination. So this is obviously an issue. It's obviously an issue for various different leaders in Latin America. Do you are you calling for American intervention in your country, military intervention?
- [36:21]
Maria Corina Machado
We're calling for the interventions of Russia, China, Cuba and Iran to be stopped and to be expelled. Venezuela right now is a safe haven where Hezbollah, Hamas, the drug cartels, the Colombian guerrilla operate freely. And they are part of this liaison with our regime. And what we have done, the Venezuelan people, as I said, is already mandated regime change. We won and we need help to enforce that decision. And that help comes in terms of applying, enforcing the law, cutting those flows that come from these criminal activities. And you know what, making public, unveiling all the information many of these governments have, not only the United States, Latin America, European, European countries and governments that have, you know, that know that the financial systems are being used by these criminal activities, we want this to be absolutely made public. And believe me, Christiane, as we speak, the Venezuelan people are organizing, yes, underground, under huge threat, but growing and growing hope and determined, determined to prevail. Venezuela will be free.
- [37:46]
Christiane Amanpour
Maria Corina Machado, that was very clear indeed. And congratulations on your Nobel Prize Prize. Thank you very much indeed. And we'll be right back after this short break. And now a look back at the very beginnings of the United States and where it is 250 years later. That is the focus of the Atlantic's November issue. Editor in chief Jeffrey Goldberg speaks to Walter Isaacson about the Founding Fathers lofty ideals and how the country is living up to them.
- [38:24]
Walter Isaacson
Thank you, Chris. John and Jeff Goldberg, welcome back to the show.
- [38:28]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Thank you so much for having me.
- [38:29]
Walter Isaacson
You and the Atlantic have just launched a series and a special issue for the 250th birthday of our nation. It's called the Unfinished Revolution. First of all, tell me why you call it unfinished.
- [38:44]
Jeffrey Goldberg
It'll never be finished. I mean, no human endeavor ever reaches a stage of perfection in my mind. So we are 250 years into this experiment. It's not a straight shot toward near perfection in American history or any other history. But we have seen the expansion of the American idea to include women, to include black people, to include all kinds of other people into the promise that was made by the founders, the genius founders of the United States. And what I mean by unfinished is that we're always trying to figure out better ways to be a representative democracy. It's also unfinished. There's a, I guess you would say a particularly unfinished quality to where we are right now, where in my mind and in the minds of a lot of other people, we're slipping backwards in many categories, including, and especially in organizing a government by the people and for the people. If you take the long view, you realize that America goes up, America goes down. We go through periods of idealism and we go through periods of cynicism like we're in right now. But it's the task of every citizen to try to understand what their responsibility is, as delineated by the founding documents and the founding fathers of our country. And that's what this issue tries to do. It sort of says, this is what happened, this is what it means. This is where we're going, and here are the challenges ahead.
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Walter Isaacson
You just said that we generally progress, but sometimes we slip backwards and we're slipping backwards. Now you said, I think on democracy you were talking about rule of and by and for the people. Give me some examples. What are you talking about?
- [40:32]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, the thing that really eats at me right now is this. So the founders were, generally speaking, pessimists about human nature and so devised a government that would work against the vagaries of human nature. Obviously we had men who founded this country who had extraordinary insight into human nature and also extraordinary, extraordinary qualities. I mean, George Washington obviously set the pattern until today when he went home. Right? Leaders don't go home. They don't voluntarily give up power. George Washington became a model for every president until today, until today's president, of the person who takes power and then willingly cedes power. We're in a new situation right now, obviously. The thing that really gets me though, is the separation of powers. And they devised a system of separation of powers where each branch would check the power of the other branch. That only works if everybody takes on their proper role. And right now we have a situation in which Congress, in my mind again, Congress is not taking the power granted to it by the Constitution to actually be a check on executive power. So it works on paper, but it only really works works if everybody plays their designated role. And what I don't understand about this moment more than almost any other thing I don't understand about this moment is why the leaders of Congress don't fulfill. It's not just fulfill their responsibilities. Why don't they do the things that they can do, which is to check the executive. And so here we are. We're here where we are in large part, because Congress doesn't do what it was meant to do. If you look at Watergate, why did Watergate end? Why did Nixon resign? Because the Republican leaders of Congress said to him, that's enough, thank you, but we'll take it from here. And we don't have that situation today, not by a long shot.
- [42:43]
Walter Isaacson
One of the things that suffuses the Declaration of Independence is also at the core of the Constitution, and you just referred to it, which is a protection against authoritarian rule, a protection they were trying to make sure that we didn't have a monarch again. And that's what the whole Declaration of Independence is about. And that's what they do when they balance it in the Constitution. Why are you fearing that we are now getting back to a more authoritarian executive?
- [43:12]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, because we elected a person who does not, it's abundantly clear, have the same respect for the restraints that previous American presidents have willingly taken on to advance the cause of representative democracy. He's just in a different mindset. I mean, every president loves power. And to even run for president and think that you could do the job suggests that there's something. There's a screw loose anyway. Right. But until this president, we have not experienced a person who has, frankly, authoritarian impulses and who believes that the government should be used as a weapon against his domestic political enemies. So we have that. And again, I come back to this. It's like the story of our moment is not simply the story of a man who believes that he has or should take privileges that previous presidents didn't think that they should take. The story is a system out of balance in which the people designated by the Constitution to check his power aren't checking his power. And again, this conversation could go into why are we in this moment? And I would say that the rise of reality TV and the entertainment Internet complex and the rise of social media have lowered our resistance to the kind of populism that we see today. You know, we're inoculated against this kind of thing by the naturally slower processes that we had in our politics. But now that everything's at warp speed and now that very, very, very bad and dangerous ideas can move around the world in a nanosecond, we're in a different thing. And Donald Trump takes advantage of those things.
- [45:13]
Walter Isaacson
To what extent do you see the role of the press? You talk about Congress not stepping up to the plate, but the role of the press in dealing with this moment?
- [45:23]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I Mean, without the press, we're finished. Obviously, authoritarians across the world understand that point, which is why they turn the press into the enemy of the people. Jefferson in particular, but many other of the founders understood the indispensability of a free press and the chaos that a free press brings. Remember, that chaos that they worried about was a very measured, slow chaos by the standards of today. One of the things I would say is that, and this is sort of a commentary on the way the press itself behaves, we don't, as an industry, as a collection of oppositional people, we don't explain why we do what we do to people anymore. We just assume that everybody understands the valuable role of the press and the valuable role of the First Amendment in their lives. And I don't think that could be taken for granted anymore, especially when you have a president who actively argues against the existence of a free, untrammeled press. We would be in a much more authoritarian position if we didn't have the free press right now.
- [46:49]
Walter Isaacson
You call this series the Unfinished Revolution, you said, because in some ways we have to keep improving, that. The arc is towards progress, but it recedes back and forth. A lot of flaws in the American thing. So it's a great balance. But President Trump has talked about. He put out a order in March called Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History, which declares, over the past decade, Americans have witnessed a concerted and widespread effort to rewrite our nation's history, replacing objective facts with distorted narrative, driven by ideology rather than truth. When you're trying to put together this issue, do you feel the push of this president and this administration trying to keep our history looking great, or do you see how you can do a balance?
- [47:46]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Look, there are three camps in America. I'm making this oversimplified, but there's three camps when it comes to understanding American history. There's what I think of as my camp, probably your camp, which thinks that America is a wonderful country, a wonderful experiment, that sometimes it's made bad mistakes. But the great thing about America is that we learn from our mistakes and then we get better. The expansion of rights is one example of that, and that we're so strong and self confident that we can examine honestly the mistakes we've made in order to learn from them and just deal with them. There's another camp that is so brittle and fragile in its understanding of American history that they think you can't say anything bad about America at all. Which is silly. I mean, it's just juvenile, right? That to criticize Any aspect of America is to be anti American. There's a third camp, and this is on the hard left, that thinks America is uniquely evil in the world. I don't have much patience for it because it's so dumb, you know, that America is a uniquely evil presence on the world stage. That's not for me. I'm in the middle group which says that America is a wonderful experiment, it's a wonderful country worth saving and growing, and that we make mistakes and that we should fix our mistakes and acknowledge them. I find that to be the sensible middle ground. But that's where we are. And what you're seeing now, when it comes to the National Archives, when it comes to the Smithsonian, even in culture, when it comes to the Kennedy center, is you're seeing that camp of brittleness dominating the conversation. And that's not useful. And that's not what makes a country great. What makes a country great is a bunch of people arguing themselves about what makes a country great and doing those things. So that's why we're in this weird moment.
- [49:45]
Walter Isaacson
One of the things you have to deal with, of course, is slavery and the notion that Jefferson can write all men are created equal when he's enslaved 200 people and there are 500,000 enslaved Africans in the Unitedin the colonies at that point. Annette Gordon Reed takes it on real well in your issue, which is this question of how do you look at that, but also see the progress made the 250 years since then. Tell me how Annette Gordon Reed takes on that. That issue of all men are created equal and how we have to deal with that.
- [50:20]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Here's a manifestation of Annette's genius and of Lonnie Bunch's genius. Lonnie, who built. Who's now the secretary of the Smithsonian. And dealing with some of this pressure about how do we talk about history. But also the founding director of the National African American History Museum. When you go to the. You can see Annette's theory brought to life in that museum. There's a statue of Thomas Jefferson, about seven, eight feet tall, Thomas Jefferson. Behind him is a curved brick wall that has etched into each brick the name of one of the slaves, one of the enslaved people, Black Americans who were kept in Monticello. Right. And the wall is higher than Jefferson. And the symbolism there is obvious that the sin of Jefferson is larger than the man. Right? Then above that, two stories high, the opening words of the Declaration of Independence. And that symbolizes that the ideals that Jefferson held but didn't live up to as a man, a person. And that's what we're striving for. It's the perfect representation. And I have such admiration for Annette and all the scholars who have made Jefferson the more complicated. That's probably a euphemism, complicated figure that he actually is. But that's a perfect representation of the entirety of the American story. The founders were flawed men who had a limited understanding by our understanding today of who gets freedom. Right. But they articulated a set of ideas that if you actually carried them out, would create something close to utopia on earth. And I don't know, that should keep Americans motivated for a lifetime. Let's get better. You don't have to make believe that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington were perfect people. We just have to, we just have to acknowledge that they had some pretty good ideas for us and that we should do them.
- [52:30]
Walter Isaacson
Jeffrey Goldberg, thank you for joining us.
- [52:33]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Thank you, Walter.
- [52:36]
Christiane Amanpour
And finally, if you've been in central London over the past couple of days, you might, as I did while walking my dog this week, run into a group of elite Japanese sumo wrestlers enjoying a stroll by many of London's site's Buckingham Palace. Like having a snack outside Big Ben. They're here for the grand Sumo tournament at the Royal Albert hall, which starts today. That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
- [53:12]
Dr. Michelle Ward
I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward. And on season seven of Mind of a Monster, we're bringing you the story of Kristin and Gilbert.
- [53:21]
Walter Isaacson
We think that Kristen Gilbert is the most prolific mass murderer on the east.
- [53:26]
Dr. Michelle Ward
Coast, the very person responsible for keeping you alive. Your nurse is secretly killing you.
- [53:33]
Christiane Amanpour
She said to the nurse manager, if.
- [53:35]
Dr. Michelle Ward
This guy dies, can I go home? Listen to Mind of a Monster, the killer nurse. Wherever you get your podcasts.