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- [00:05]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. I'm here at the United nations after Donald Trump swerves again on Ukraine, while again urging an end to the war in Gaza. We hear from European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and from the lone Palestinian representative, its envoy to the United Nations, Riyadh Mansour. Then, since the Trump administration slashed foreign aid, crises mount in Gaza, Sudan and elsewhere. UN Relief chief Tom Fletcher breaks down the toll of these funding cuts in terms of human life. Welcome to program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour at the United Nations. In a truth social post heard around the world, President Donald Trump unexpectedly reversed his stance on Russia's war, saying for the first time, I think Ukraine is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. Trump called Russia, quote, a paper tiger and told reporters that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft that violate their airspace. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky Trotsky called Trump's post a game changer. But speaking at the UN Today, he also issued a warning to world leaders.
- [01:43]
B
Saying, whether you help peace or continue trading with Russia and helping Russia to fund this war, it depends on you. Whether prisoners of war will be freed, whether abducted children will come home, whether hostages will be free, it depends on you.
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A
To answer that question and to respond to Trump's broadside against European allies from the UN Podium, my exclusive conversation with the EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. President Ursula von der Leyen, welcome to the program.
- [02:21]
C
Thank you very much.
- [02:22]
A
I mean, can I just start with what was it like in the room when President Trump literally delivered a broadside against you all on climate change, basically calling it a con job and you'll fail on immigration, Your nations are going to hell. What did you make of it?
- [02:39]
C
Well, you know, I know exactly what's going on in Europe. We have by now worked very hard to limit migration in a way that we say we decide who comes to Europe and under what circumstances, not the smugglers and traffickers. On energy, we're very clear. Every country decides on its own energy mix. For us, it's important to be independent and therefore to focus on homegrown energy, like renewables or nuclear, for example, that gives us energy security is good for the planet, but also independence.
- [03:10]
A
So you don't agree that the renewables are a gigantic con job.
- [03:14]
C
We will stay the course with the renewables because, as we think it is good for the climate, it is bringing good jobs at home in Europe, it is cheaper than the fossil fuels for us in Europe because we do not have to import them and it gives us independence and energy security.
- [03:33]
A
All right, so you're going to forge your own way no matter what the president of the US Says.
- [03:37]
C
The European Union is very clear on that. We have climate targets agreed with all 27 member states. We stay the course.
- [03:43]
A
Fine, let's move on to Ukraine, because huge issue and it's being perceived. I don't know how you perceive it. I'd be interested in your reaction that Trump has made a dramatic switch from member in the Oval Office telling Zelenskyy in front of the world that you have no cards, you need to negotiate, you need to call a ceasefire. You have no cards to hear saying that. Yes, I actually think that with eu, NATO help, you can actually win back your territory. First, do you agree with what his assessment is and what do you attribute his shift to?
- [04:16]
C
Well, we always were convinced and are convinced that Ukraine's fight is not only for Ukraine's fight, independent sovereignty, but it's a question for the global order and the respect for the charter, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of countries. Second, we have been working very hard to support Ukraine, but also to show that there's a strong coalition of the willing, making sure that once peace is there, we are able to give the security guarantees to Ukraine it needs. And the third point is most important. It took a while, but the evidence is overwhelming to show to President Trump that President Putin is the predator, that he does not want peace, and that we have to be very clear that the international rules have to be respected. And this is what you heard then yesterday?
- [05:11]
A
I heard it from the president yesterday. You're right. And he said, you know, Putin has really disappointed me. I thought, as he said many times, I could fix this war because of my relationship with Putin. I didn't realize that that wasn't going to be the case. But my question to you is, do you think this signals a ramping up of eu, NATO aid to Ukraine for the purpose of what Trump said, that they can win back their territory? Do you think that is what the aim is now? What is the aim for Ukraine?
- [05:39]
C
So what the United States do is their decision. But the European Union has always been crystal clear that we're going to support Ukraine and what it needs. So far, 175 billion have been invested in Ukraine's defense, but also economic survival. And we will stay the course. We will be ironclad by the side of Ukraine, and that is also giving them the military capabilities they need to defend their country.
- [06:08]
A
But what is your assessment? Is the aim now for them to fight to regain their territory, or is it to keep defending, as you've said, and get to a place where Putin takes everybody seriously, including Ukraine, for reasonable negotiations? What's the aim?
- [06:23]
C
So the aim is, of course, the decision on what is Ukrainian territory to be defended. That's a Ukraine decision and we respect that. The aim is that putting Putin comes to the negotiation table and sits down and negotiates because we all want peace.
- [06:40]
A
President Trump has over and again, I'm not going to use the word threatened, but said that he will punish Putin in various ways if he doesn't do X in two weeks or in 11 days or in 20. I'm making it up, you know, constant deadlines that keep being fudged and missed. Now he's saying he's ready to impose tough sanctions on Putin. And this is a couple of weeks ago. As long as allies, NATO, European allies stop buying fossil fuel, energy and etc. From the Russians. What's your response to that?
- [07:16]
C
Well, President Trump is right. It's unacceptable that through the back door the Russian fossil fuel come back. Just a figure. We have reduced Russian fossil fuels in Europe by 80%. Zero coal from Russia, for example, only 3% of oil from Russia. So really drastically reduced. But what I see that LNG comes through the back door. So we just propose to sanction LNG coming to the European markets that comes from Russia.
- [07:45]
A
Okay, I'm just going to read you a Trump quote. He basically just think about it. He's talking about you and other NATO nations. They're funding the war against themselves. In other words, by buying Russian oil. Who ever heard of that? He actually said, who the hell ever heard of that one? So you're agreeing then?
- [08:00]
C
Look, three years ago when the war started, indeed, there was a huge dependency on Russian gas and Putin cut us off the gas. We had a huge energy crisis. We diversified away to others and friends. We invested massively in renewables and nuclear so that today we almost got rid of Russian fossil fuels. And it's correct. We have to finish that job. We have to get rid of Russian fossil fuels because it's only filling the Russian.
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A
So you're standing in the middle of this. So you have imposed a ban on maritime Russian oil imports, refined products like diesel. But as you say, many countries continue to import those fossil fuels and liquefied lng, as you say, around the back door. So who are the culprits? Is it Slovakia? Is it Turkey? Is it Hungary?
- [08:47]
C
Who is it, it is some member states in the European Union that are still having LNG or Russian oil. And here we just, as I said, issued a sanctions package that makes very clear that in a few months they have to get rid of the LNG because it is sanctioned.
- [09:09]
A
There's sanctions also on China. Trump has reported, demanded of you the EU to put tariffs up to about 100% on China and India, again punishing countries who buy from Russia, notably energy, and also fund the war.
- [09:25]
C
It is absolutely correct that we have to reduce the war chest of Putin as much as possible. And therefore, we, for example, have already put out a ban for products. We find products from Russian fossil fuels. This hits, for example, countries that like Turkey or India. But we also are sanctioning banks or refineries and different companies where we see that they are circumventing our sanctions. So there is an ongoing hard work, really, to limit the revenues that Putin is getting from fossil fuels. As far as we are able to do that, what is not, not possible in our legal system is to put on tariffs for foreign policy reasons. We put tariffs for economic reasons, but not for foreign policy reasons. We work with sanctions, we work with bans. We have been very successful. If you look at the Russian economy, it's a total war economy now. Skyrocketing interest rates, high inflation, they are at their limit. They are at a point that is critical for them. And if we increase the pressure, my prediction is that finally Putin will come to the negotiation table and we can end this war.
- [10:43]
A
That's your prediction? Then how do you react to this constant testing, testing, testing by actual military of the NATO airspace? I know you're not officially NATO, but many of your nations are. Drones into Poland, into Romania, and fighter jets into Estonian airspace. President Trump was asked again yesterday, do you support NATO shooting down any unidentified flying objects or planes, Russian, that fly into NATO airspace? He said, yeah, I do.
- [11:11]
C
So, as you rightly said, I'm not NATO, but I have a personal opinion.
- [11:14]
A
Yeah, what is it? Yes.
- [11:15]
C
My opinion is we have to defend every square centimeter of territory. And that means if there's an intrusion in the airspace, after warning, after being very clear, of course, the option of shooting down a fighter jet that is intruding our airspace is on the table.
- [11:35]
A
Turkey did it 10 years ago and didn't suffer consequences necessarily.
- [11:40]
C
No. And it's a principle of NATO and Article 5.
- [11:43]
A
What's taken you so long? I know you're not NATO, but what's taken the world so long? Because Russia has been really testing for Such a long time. Is it time now to punch back in the nose?
- [11:56]
C
Russia is testing on all fields. I mean, that's a hybrid war that we experienced since many, many years that Russia is leading against the democracies of the European Union and others. And therefore we fight back on all the different fields. And as I said, it's a decision of NATO. But I would be very clear, you don't touch our, our territory.
- [12:17]
A
And you were a former defense minister. I remember when we first met. For Germany, you're talking about interference. There is an election coming up in Moldova which I know is not an EU nation, but has all the, you know, wants to be and is being supported by a lot of Western nations in its efforts. It is said that there's a huge amount of Russian interference. They don't want the current president to be reelected. She's very pro Western. What do you see happening there? What concerns you about what might happen in Moldova?
- [12:46]
C
The evidence is overwhelming and very clear that there is massive interference. Important is to create transparency. That's what we're doing to show to the people, do your own choice, choose the one that is better for you and your future. And to be very clear that Moldova has our support and in being an independent democrat, democracy and having the right to have independent, secret and true votes and therefore very clear that there's full support for Moldova in trying to fence off this foreign interference.
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A
And what is your analysis? Are they going to be able to fend it off, do you think, you know or not?
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C
Well, everybody's working hard on that one. And I think the more transparency we create on what's going on and that this interference is there, the more people will realize their future future is in their hands and go vote.
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A
Well, that's a clear call on Israel here this week is dominated by the recognition of Palestine as a state. Palestinian statehood. Now four of the five permanent members of the Security Council recognize it, except for the United States. How do you think this movement is going to show results on the ground ground? Israel is already threatening to retaliate. I had the ambassador on my program yesterday who said maybe they'll have to put more Jewish civilians in what he called Judea and Samaria, the occupied West Bank. We've got a massive offensive happening as we speak. Hospitals, civilians, people as they try to go after more Hamas in Gaza City first. What is this recognition going to do?
- [14:24]
C
Well, I think the most important this moment at the United nations the day before yesterday was that there was absolutely unity on a two state solution. This is the important part. This is also where Europe is completely united, that we see the future in the two state solution and that we should work intensively towards that. For us, it's important that all hostages are being relieved, that Gaza, the war in Gaza stops, that there is a ceasefire, but there needs to be the hope for two state solution that is viable. And this is the unifying factor because.
- [15:02]
A
The Israelis say no this and they're doing everything they can. As you've heard from ministers, including the Prime Minister. There will never be a Palestinian state. He said, I've got news for you, it's not going to happen.
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C
Yeah, but that is something where we have to be and we are very clear and you've seen a large, a large number of countries support this resolution with the two state solution.
- [15:26]
A
What can Europe do more? There are certain European countries who stopped certain trade with Israel, who talk about, you know, the Eurovision Song Contest even pulling out if Israel joins. What can you do beyond rhetoric? There are trade deals, there's, there's stuff that you could do. What will you do?
- [15:43]
C
Look, first of all, Europe is the largest donor of humanitarian aid in this conflict. Europe is also the largest donor to the Palestinian Authority. That is crucial for the two state solution. Very important. Europe has strong and good relations also to Israel. And we've been very clear that we will take away the preferential treatment in trade, not affecting civil society, not affecting, affecting our work with Yad Yad Vashem, but that we look at the reduction of preferential treatment for Israel trade. Our wish is that we go back to the path of a two state solution. Therefore, we want a strong relationship with Israel, the Israeli people, with the Palestinian people. And we want solutions that are viable for the future.
- [16:33]
A
One last question. I don't know whether you have any more details, but you were flying in your own official plane a while ago and there was a GPS issue and there was all this thought that maybe the Russians had interfered or what. Do you know what, what happened? Did you even know it was happening at the time?
- [16:49]
C
The airport authorities are the ones who were very clear on that one. Actually this seems to be a daily experience for the frontline countries. I visited the frontline countries and for the day them a daily experience is the jamming that the Russians and Belarusians do. But also for example, the event with drones coming to the Polish territory, forced migration at the border of those frontline countries. These countries experience every single day the hybrid attacks by Russia and Belarus and they need our full support.
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A
You know, I didn't ask you, but I know it's a big deal for you. President Zelensky laid down a challenge to the global community to not just stop this war, but also to help bring back children who've been, who've been kidnapped and Russified. I mean, they've been completely turned into Russian citizens, these children. And as we know, President Putin has been there's an arrest warrant out for him by the ICC on this issue of kidnapped children. What have you discussed here? I know Melania Trump was here talking to Eleanor Zelenskyy about it.
- [17:54]
C
So first of all, it's abhorrent what a of sense happening there. And therefore from day one on, we were at the side of Ukraine to do everything possible to bring back those children. We work very intensively with unicef. The funding in unicef, a program for the children that are coming back to be treated and to give them the opportunity to heal and to give them support and to raise attention globally. We will host the next summit on the abducted children. This is something where the world has to look at and the world has to stand as one that these children go back home.
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A
All right. Ursula von der Leyen, president of the EU Commission, thank you so much for being with us.
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C
Thank you very much.
- [18:34]
A
Thank you. Oh no, it's not serious. Stay with CNN because we'll be right back after the break. Now to Gaza, where more than 60 people have been killed over the past 24 hours, according to an update from local hospitals. Those hospitals are themselves a prime target of Israel's assault on Gaza City. Most of the latest killings occurred there. The war in Gaza is a key focus of diplomatic discussions at this point. UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY France, Britain, Canada, Australia are among a surge of nations now recognizing Palestinian statehood and yet there are no high level Palestinian officials in attendance. In an unprecedented move, the US Refused visas to leaders, leaders of the Palestinian Authority. Instead, the sole representative is the Palestinian envoy to the United Nations, Riyadh Mansour, and he is joining me now. Welcome to the program.
- [19:44]
B
Thank you for having me.
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A
So we see before, you know, talking to you, a picture of you alone in the Security Council in your box or the General assembly yesterday. How does it feel? Do you feel alone or do you feel the world is with you?
- [19:58]
B
No, I don't feel alone. First of all, I have a capable team with me in New York and I have the whole world is with me. So Palestine is not isolated. And the Palestinians, the leadership, the angel, the children are filling the rooms in the General assembly and I feel they're filling the streets in New York City.
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A
There's certainly Palestinian flags flying and it has been a huge focus with the recognition and now an overwhelming majority of UN members recognize Palestinian statehood. What do you think it will mean?
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B
Practically, it means a lot, especially when you have countries like the UK which adopted the Belfort Declaration almost 100 years ago. To finally recognize the state of Palestine is history. And as I said yesterday to President Macron, jokingly I said, you know, this is a wonderful adjustment and shift of something of the caliber of Sykes Picot. And then he told me, I know a lot about Sykes Picot. So when you see countries like that, Canada, Australia joining the 149 countries that voted the state voted to recognize the state of Palestine. So now we have 159. It's massive, it's very important, historic, important.
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A
Countries though the United States, obviously Israel and islands like Nauru, Palau, nations in Latin America. Paraguay voted no. President Abbas of the PA will speak to this assembly tomorrow, but only by remote. There was a vote. They agreed to let him address by remote because he's been denied a visa along with his major delegation. What do you think that's going to achieve? A denying the visas? Why do you think that happened?
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B
Well, what will it achieve? You know, I asked the United States government that made that version very unfortunate and regrettable decision. If they think that this way they will silence us. They're mistaking. I think it backfire some countries that maybe they were reluctant about the recognition, made up their mind and recognized the state of Palestine. And I don't want to name countries. You, you cannot in today's technology silence anyone. Palestine is present. Palestine is filling all of the holes at the United Nations. Our president on Monday addressed the international conference on the two state solution. And tomorrow he will be the fourth speaker addressing the General Assembly.
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A
Have you seen a draft? Do you know what he's going to say?
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B
Well, he more or less he said something that everybody heard that on Monday there will be more that will be built on that because as we speak.
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A
We can see it. And it's been said that all well and good to recognize Palestinian statehood, but Gaza is being demolished.
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B
Yes.
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A
How do you think this is going to stop?
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B
The first thing is that this, this genocidal war against our people has to stop. Stopping the war will create so many positive things. Number one, it will save lives. We will not lose. On the average of 100 Palestinians, a large number of them are children on daily basis, hundreds injured. And also it increases the chances of the release of the hostages, the continuation of the war. It takes Lives. Peace saves lives. We should be giving peace a chance. Remember that chant that, you know, when we were young, it used to be filling the streets in the United States regarding Vietnam. Let's give peace a chance in our region. This war has to stop. Food should be provided to our people, not to starve them to death and medicine. And we need not to allow the crime against humanity to take place of forced displacement. We need to rebuild Gaza. Gaza is a precious part of Palestine and we can rebuild it. We can make it more beautiful than before. Our people are resilient and they want to stay in that part of our national homeland. Gaza Express.
- [24:48]
A
Can I ask you something? Then you talk about rebuild more beautiful than before. There have been various plans put forth. The Arab countries have said they will. It's been rejected so far by Israel and the United States, at least publicly, as part of the plan they put out many months ago. But there is this plan by this trusteeship called. The acronym is Great. It's suggested Gaza will go into a US and other kind of trusteeship, that it would be built as a sort of like Trump said, you know, Riviera of the Middle east, that it'll be a tech hub and all the rest of it, and that it might even include Palestinians being moved at least temporarily. What do you know about that?
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B
Some of these narratives are history. They were suggested at the certain period of time. But once the Arabs and the Muslims at the level of the summit and the ministerial meeting of the OIC said we have plans and they put the plans 130 pages and we will fund these plans, $53 billion. President Trump sort of retreated because when he knew that there is a plan by the Arab and the Muslims and supported by the European Union and others, then therefore that is the plan that has the global consensus. And in fact, in the Declaration of New York on the two state solution, there is an endorsement by all the countries that voted in favor of that plan. They endorsed that reconstruction of Gaza plan. So. So that that is the only plan. And it will start three weeks after the ceasefire. According to the Egyptians, they will convene the reconstruction conference organized by Egypt, Palestine and the United nations and endorsed by so many European countries and others will be convened in Cairo and we will begin the process of the implementation.
- [26:58]
A
Now, as you know, Israel is very angry and so is the United States about the recognition. They say that it is a reward for Hamas terrorism. They say that it's not up to any third party to decide on the resolution of your 80 year conflict or more. But it's up to the two parties to decide in negotiations. Then they say that there is no Palestinian partner to negotiate with. They say that even the PA which recognizes Israel is not legitimate in terms of its credibility. This is what Ambassador Danny Danone from Israel before you show me. Go ahead.
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B
Is it the right of Israel to decide for us our fate, to deny us the right to self determination? Is it the right of Israel to say there will never be a Palestinian state? The occupiers, at least the Palestinian people, have the right under the charter of the UN through exercising their right to self determination to decide for themselves what they want. And we have decided we want the end of occupation. The ICJ said it's a legal occupation, that it has to be terminated as rapidly as possible. The General assembly, one year. We want the end of this illegal occupation and we want the independence of our state with East Jerusalem as its capital on the border of the 4th of June of 1967. Well, that's the position of the Palestinian, of course.
- [28:27]
A
And to your point, I spoke to, as you saw, the president of the EU Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, who this morning said that this recognition reinforces the EU and the international community's continued commitment to a two state solution. So you do have that obvious recognition. But when you talk about a state, the reality is that there's a huge number of more settlements, as you know, in the occupied West Bank. And again, Ambassador Danone told me yesterday that one of the things they may do in response to this recognition is, I believe he said, put more Jewish civilians in what they call Judea and Samaria. And you know, there's this big settlement which I think is called E1 that they have threatened to put and potentially even annex large parts of the West Bank. So those are physical responses, but this.
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B
Is illegal, illegal by international law and by the historic opinion of the icj.
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A
Okay, and then it happens, but it keeps happening. I'm talking about practical and pragmatic.
- [29:32]
B
But let me add that while this insane government led by Netanyahu are doubling down on violation of international law and they want to erase the existence of the Palestinian people and express the rest and to annex what they want to annex in the west bank and to have more settlements, the international community is doubling down and not allowing them to succeed with that. That's one of the components of the recognition. This is another component of the atmosphere that you see at the un, almost everyone, for the two state solution, which requires the end of this occupation, which is illegal, and independence and freedom for the Palestinian people.
- [30:22]
A
Can I also just put to you, because I've been trying to put to you what the Israelis say about, you know, not having a credible Palestinian Authority to deal with. One of the issues. They say is this pay to slay program that they say is still going on. Can I just play this bit of my interview with Ambassador Danone?
- [30:43]
B
I tell you why it was the right decision because you know, people make the distinction between Hamas and the pa, but the pa, they continue to pay terrorists. They have the pay to slave policy. There was a terror attack in Jerusalem a few weeks ago. Six is very dramatic. The pa, President Abbas will pay the families of the terrorists a monthly salary of $1,000 a month for life.
- [31:07]
A
From what I gather, that is no longer the case.
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D
No, no.
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A
Is that the case?
- [31:12]
B
And you can ask President Abbas next time you interview him and he will tell you.
- [31:16]
A
I will, I'll ask his representative tomorrow.
- [31:18]
B
And they will tell you that for them, that's part of their ideology. Okay, so you are right, it is not the case. Ask. You know, the US administration and our government has been in discussions with them and there is now the old arrangement is not in place. There is something else that was negotiated over a long period of time and it met the approval and acceptance of many parties, including the U.S. administration.
- [31:50]
A
You mentioned the U.S. administration. Obviously the nation with the most influence in the region is the United States. Right. So how do you see the current US administration administration being an honest broker, as you've always wanted third parties to be, between your legitimate rights and Israel's legitimate rights. Do you say that this, do you think that you have that commitment from this administration?
- [32:17]
B
You see, this administration cannot ignore what happened on Monday and what happened after that when these very important, important country to the US Administration and to US policies. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and one France, uk, Italy, Spain, Canada, Australia, just only to name a few are saying this war has to stop. They're saying this occupation has to end. A two state solution has to take place. The Palestinian Authority is our partner and it should run the affairs of the Palestinian people in all parts of the land of the State of Palestine, including Gaza. We are working with them, we are strengthening them. I just signed in the European Union headquarters just an hour ago a loan agreement between European Investment bank with our Palestinian Monetary Authority, 400 million European euros. And our Prime Minister just few weeks ago was in Brussels. He signed an agreement with the European Union of receiving 1.6 billion euros in the next three years to strengthen the institutions of the the state of Palestine. It means that people are determined not to allow the Palestinian Authority to collapse or to be destroyed in spite of these crazy wishes of the Israeli leaders. And we will see who will win the battle. Is it the international community saying you will not succeed in killing more Palestinians? Ceasefire will be in place. You will not succeed in starving them. Food will be coming to scale to the Gaza Strip. You will not succeed in pushing them to the border of Egypt to end up having them in Sinai. We will allow them to begin the process of the reconstruction. And we are determined that this occupation will end and the two state solution will be a reality. So they're doubling down and the world is doubling down. Not again. You will not succeed in erasing a nation and we will see who will win.
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A
All right, Special Envoy Riyad Mansoor. Thank you very much indeed.
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B
Thank you. I am the Ambassador of the second Palestine.
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A
I know, but officially it says permanent observer. But now you're the Ambassador because of the recognition.
- [34:55]
B
No, in the blue book, if you read, I am Ambassador of the State of Palestine, government observer of the set of Palestine.
- [35:03]
A
There you go. Thank you for clearing that up.
- [35:04]
B
You're very welcome.
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A
And we'll be right back after this short break. So, as we've mentioned, it's not only global challenges being discussed here at the United Nations General assembly, but also the future of the UN itself, which President Trump laid into along with allies arrayed before him. Take a listen. Not only is the UN not solving the problems it should too often, it's.
- [35:39]
C
Actually creating new problems for us to solve. It's time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now.
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A
I can tell you it's climate change.
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C
Because if it goes higher or lower, whatever the hell happens, this climate change.
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A
All of this with the UNGA's new president, former German Foreign Minister Annelina Baerbob, looking on from above. But before the speech yesterday, previewing for us the UN at 80, she had come out swinging in defence of this global institution. Take a listen.
- [36:14]
C
This is the task of our time to make the United Nations a alive again. And for that one, we have to reform it. Obviously, not all the reforms we needed in the past have been delivered. It has to be made fit for the 21st century. There's also so much more potential with AI and other techniques on tools. However, this does not mean that we should get rid of our principles, because the principles in the culture, they are the baseline for a peaceful world. And it's a responsibility of every member states, especially, especially of the permanent members of the Security Council, to deliver on these resolutions and on these principles. And this is why I've called, as a president of the General assembly, to reunite at this moment, when we are at the crossroads, to underline that this is a make it moment and not a break it moment, to embrace the vision that we are all better together. And that every state leader should ask himself when he comes to the General assembly, what has the UN done for my country? And no country in the world would be better off without United Nations.
- [37:26]
A
So the humanitarian crisis requires everyone to work together. It continues to worsen. As you've been hearing from our guests today, medical facilities there are overwhelmed. They face a tsunami of injured and sick patients fleeing the Israeli attacks. And while President Trump claims that the UN is failing to switch solve global problems, his own dramatic aid cuts are making humanitarian crises worse. Tom Fletcher is the UN's Under Secretary General for Humanitarian affairs, and we spoke about his ongoing efforts to keep desperately needed aid flowing in the face of these severe political and institutional pressures. Tom Fletcher, welcome to the program. Can I ask you, Trump was in sort of broadside mode yesterday. He was, you know, launching into these allies and even the un. Can I just play a little soundbite of Donald Trump? What is the purpose of the United Nations?
- [38:21]
C
The UN has such tremendous potential, I've always said has such tremendous, tremendous potential.
- [38:29]
B
But it's not even coming close to.
- [38:31]
C
Living up to that potential. For the most part, at least for now, all they seem to do is write a really strongly worded letter and.
- [38:40]
A
Then never follow that letter up. Were you surprised by that? And how did his meeting with the Secretary General go?
- [38:47]
D
Well, there were fireworks yesterday, but, you know, this is the purpose of High Level Week. This is the place where we come to air our disagreements, but also to think how we work together practically. So, yeah, there was lots of theater, there was lots of knockabout stuff yesterday. It was high drama, but it brings an energy to the conversation. And actually, you know, I heard President Trump say in his speech how committed he is to a ceasefire in Gaza. I heard him in the meeting with SG. He was very clear. He's 100% behind the UN. He wants to see the UN go out there and work with the US administration and others in ending some conflicts. And that's, that's why we're here. You know, what's the purpose of the un? It's saving lives, it's ending wars, it's building resilient communities. And I think that's a shared objective.
- [39:27]
A
So he was, you know, slightly different in his demeanor with the sg, more accepting of and wanting to partner in, in good ways.
- [39:35]
D
It was a very practical sense. It was two leaders meeting to think about how do we end some of these conflicts around the world. And it's something that President Trump has made clear he's very committed to. He's willing to work the phones to put the energy through the diplomacy. And that's what we need right now. We need the world to come together and actually end some war.
- [39:54]
A
Just another question on the how the body works. We know that, you know, in its heyday, the UN played very important mediating roles, whether it was even the Cuban missile crisis in Congo, in all sorts of places in the 60s and such. But now it seems like the Security Council, the five permanent powerful members, are always deadlocked and there's never a resolution because everybody's using their veto, whether it's Russia or China or the United States. Do you see a sort of a reform there needed?
- [40:26]
D
Yeah, look, I mean, even in the good days when it was easier, when the Security Council wasn't paralyzed, diplomacy was still tough, it was still hard. It still took patience and tenacity and creativity. And, you know, George Mitchell talked about 799 days of failure, one of success. This stuff isn't easy. The work we're trying to do in Sudan to end the conflict there, the work we're trying to do to get access to access to Gaza, these. These aren't easy things to achieve, but we're working on them every day now. Do we need a Security Council that functions better? Absolutely. Could we be smaller, faster, more agile? Absolutely. This isn't a perfect institution, but it wasn't created for good times. It was created for times like this.
- [41:04]
A
You mentioned George Mitchell, the senator, who famously was a major negotiator between the Northern Ireland and Britain and all of the rest of it during the peace process that you also mentioned, Sudan, it's one of the incredibly difficult humanitarian crises. Some 24 million face acute food insecurity, cholera is spreading. In one place in Darfur, Al Fasha, 300,000 civilians are trapped under siege. I mean, it sounds like a nightmare on a par with Gaza. Can you tell us.
- [41:35]
D
Yeah, well, in terms of, of the scale of this, it's even greater than Gaza when you're looking at 20 to 30 million people who need that support. I want us to get to Al Fasher where those people are under siege. I want to get in there with food and water. We've got convoys ready to go. But here, as everywhere else, we need three things. We need a political process. And so I've got two meetings today working behind the scenes to try to bring together the right regional players to try and get ceasefires. We need access and that means we work the phones. I'll have call with leadership of the parties on the ground to try to get us through those checkpoints, try and get security for our people who are often under fire when they're delivering. And we need funding. The Sudan appeal is about 20% funded and that's consistent across all of our appeals. You know, next year we could save 114 million lives with just 1% of what the world will spend and boast about spending on defense.
- [42:25]
A
Wow, that's 1%.
- [42:27]
D
I'm not asking people to, to choose between a hotel in Brooklyn and a hotel in Darfur. I'm asking them to just give us 1% of what they're spending on guns. Many of which, by the way, are targeting the communities we serve and are targeting us as well. Last year was the deadliest year ever to be a humanitarian. All over, all over. Hundreds of colleagues.
- [42:47]
A
Just on the, on the issue of funding, the United States started the Trump 2.0 administration with a sigh through USAID, foreign aid and also funding for the UN humanitarian arms. Whether it's WFP, UNHCR, all of those things. How can you deal? I mean, you say only a small percentage of these funding calls have been met. How are you going to get money out of the, most of the richest country?
- [43:14]
D
So it's a very, very tough funding environment for us at the moment. And let's remember, US Funding has saved hundreds of millions of lives over the years. And you know, we should be grateful for that. But now we're in a very practical conversation with the new administration as people fill positions in that administration about how the US could play that major humanitarian role again. You know, we need the US as part of that equation. We can't, we can't save over 100 million lives without that American support. We have to work out how we can work together where the US with its new configuration will be interested in working and where it's very clear with us that it doesn't want to work. And let's get into that conversation. I want to have that practical conversation. It is, I've had really practical, engaged conversations with appointees as they're filling these roles in State Department and elsewhere. And it's a conversation I absolutely relish, because what I don't relish is taking these brutal life and death decisions every day about which program to stop. And as we've discussed before, I've seen in Kundus and Kandahar in Afghanistan. I saw it in Goma a couple of weeks ago. I saw it in Haiti. I'm seeing the direct impact on people's lives. People who will die because of funding cuts.
- [44:21]
A
Exactly. And let's just talk about Gaza because it's so in the, you know, it's so, so much in the forefront. 65,000 Palestinians killed since October 7th. Hostages still there, the remaining ones. This hasn't, you know, there hasn't been resolved in any sort of negotiated fashion. But in the meantime, this massive offensive on the last remaining huge city, Gaza City, is really causing a lot of life lost and fear and forced departures and apparently surrounding hospitals, their hospitals under severe attack right now. Again, what do you know? What can you tell us? What can you do about it?
- [44:59]
D
It's absolutely horrendous. It was horrendous when I went in in February and met kids who had had amputations without anesthetics. It's horrendous that kids dying of starvation, effectively their bodies consuming their own organs. What we give them to try and avoid that is this kind of high protein peanut butter paste. And we've been told we can't bring peanut butter in because it's a luxury, because Hamas might try to steal the peanut butter. So we are on the border every day arguing, seriously, we are fighting to get our convoys through. We're getting a little bit more in now, but it is still a drop in the ocean. And what we're seeing in Gaza City is utterly horrendous. And again, people have been displaced time and time again. The lucky people are the ones living under tents. The lucky people are the people who can escape. But we're there. We will stay and deliver. We've got our colleagues remaining in Gaza City to save as many lives as we can and to bear witness and testimony to what we see.
- [45:55]
A
I'm literally trying to process the peanut. It's called the plumpy thing. Right. I've seen it given in desperate situations all over the world. And you're telling me that is being forbidden? It's on a list of banned substances into Gaza?
- [46:08]
D
Yeah. And what we have to deal with each day are these bureaucratic restrictions. We deal with the rules changing all the time. You know, we get. We get convoys across the border, we unload. We then have to load them up again onto the different lorries. We then don't get the permission to move. We get sent down the road where the looters are waiting, desperate, starving, hungry people. You know, my colleague in Gaza has been documenting each day in videos the reality of what we face on those convoys. And guess what? She's about to lose her visa and.
- [46:38]
A
Get kicked out because.
- [46:39]
D
Because she's trying to tell the world what you are not allowed in to tell the world. And I heard you interviewing the Israeli ambassador earlier. The international media can't get in. So we're just trying to explain the logistic, the bureaucratic obstacles we face. And we're not even being allowed to.
- [46:54]
A
Do that because again, I've covered a lot of these humanitarian crises and I've noticed that there is a, you know, a media effect if you're there, if we're there on the ground, it does raise awareness much more and makes it a more urgent problem that needs to be solved by the world. What do you think is the result of the media, media like us not being allowed in?
- [47:13]
D
Well, there's a reason you're not being allowed in. It's because Israel doesn't want you to see what's happening on the ground. Now there are, of course, as you've always highlighted, many, many courageous Palestinian journalists, many of whom have been dying in massive numbers, who are telling that story. But I think it's appalling that you haven't been given that access and it's chilling.
- [47:32]
A
The Gaza Humanitarian foundation, which we know is a very suspect or organization. I mean, it's highly militarized. You won't work with them for a reason. Right.
- [47:43]
D
So we're not working through that mechanism. We've been very clear about that. We desperately want to see principled, neutral, independent humanitarian aid based on need. And we desperately want to make sure that our aid doesn't support displacement of people and that we can reach all parts, including the north, and access all crossings.
- [48:03]
A
Just quickly, about all crossings, there is a closure of the Alembri Bridge, which is the crossing from the Palestinian territories into Jordan, right?
- [48:11]
D
That's right.
- [48:12]
A
And Israel has closed it. Is that a permanent thing? And if, or even a long term thing, and what does that do to the humanitarian route?
- [48:19]
D
So I've just come from a meeting with Queen Rania and the Jordanian foreign minister about the Allenby crossing. We've got to get it back open again, but we need to all these crossings open for aid because we shouldn't have to ask. The idea is that aid, humanitarian aid, is neutral, independent, impartial, and that we get complete access. And of course that's been denied to us all the way through this crisis.
- [48:42]
A
Is starvation a policy as far as the UN is concerned?
- [48:46]
D
We think this is a man made famine. We know that it's happening within meters of our supplies on the border. We can see every day what's going on. We know that we have the resources, the networks, the convoys, the experience, the expertise to stop this starvation. If we could get 500, 600 trucks in a day, we could end this famine. And we're being prevented from doing that at that scale.
- [49:12]
A
Tell me about what you notice at the hospitals because there are desperate reports coming out of now, Gaza City and its hospitals. You know, there are attacks, people are dying.
- [49:24]
D
Unfortunately, this has been a pattern throughout this, this conflict now. So for almost two years. And I visited many of those hospitals, including Al Shifa. You know, I met doctors who were operating while under sniper attack. I visited the hospital where someone, one of the doctors, has written on the wall, tell them that we did what we could, which I hope that we will all be able to say one day. He was later killed. I visited Al Shifa, donated blood there. Because of the lack of, lack of blood, our colleagues found shallow graves. You know, I met the doctors, shallow graves. I met doctors who are operating without anesthetics because again, we're not allowed to bring in the anesthetics that they need. You know, it's utterly horrendous.
- [50:05]
A
Who are in the shallow graves?
- [50:07]
D
Very hard to say, but they were recently dug. We fear that they were patients who had been killed then in the offensive that had overran that parts of Al Shifa hospital. So it's unimaginable what we're seeing and what we're finding in those hospitals. And hospitals should never be a target.
- [50:26]
A
You know, and obviously the hostages are somewhere. I mean, what do you think about how this offensive is affecting their chance of being recovered alive?
- [50:38]
D
So I visited near Oz, one of the kibbutz that was hit on October 7, where one in four people were killed or taken hostage. And I spent time with the families there and I'm in touch with them very regularly. They want the food to get in, they want a ceasefire because they know that during the ceasefire we were able to get loads of hostages out. And I'm desperate to get the remaining hostages out. We need that ceasefire to be able to do that. They should be at home with their loved ones. And we need, of course, as President Trump said yesterday, we also need to bring out the remains of those hostages who've been killed. And, you know, their families have a right to be reconciled with their loved ones, too. So we will keep fighting, keep battling to get the aid in and the hostages out. You know, that message hasn't changed since the beginning of this phase of the conflict. And it's, you know, it's a 21st century atrocity that was seeing around us. And the hostages are suffering, the Palestinians are suffering, the families are suffering, and we need the ceasefire.
- [51:33]
A
Tom Fletcher, thank you very much indeed for being with us.
- [51:36]
D
Thank you.
- [51:38]
A
Dire indeed. And finally, a victory in the fight for free speech. Following a massive public outcry, Jimmy Kimmel is back a week after being pulled off air by ABC over his comments about Charlie Kirk's murder. In an emotional monologue last night, the comedian apologized for those remarks, saying it was never his intention to make light of the murder nor blame a specific group. But the talk show host also expressed his disdain for the president's overt support for his cancellation. Take a listen. Look, I never imagined I would be in a situation like this.
- [52:13]
C
I barely paid attention in school.
- [52:15]
A
But one thing I did learn from Lenny Bruce and George Carlin and Howard Stern is that a government threat to silence a comedian the president doesn't like is anti American. Hearing about Kimmel's return, Trump threatened to test ABC out with a new legal complaint. That is it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from the United Nations.
- [52:45]
C
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, special guest Dr. Sanjay Gupt. We're going to talk about how and why medical misinformation spreads online and how people can find good information to help make important decisions about their health.
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D
55% of adults say they are now using social media to find health information and advice.
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B
Nowadays, it seems like the currency is to click bait.
- [53:12]
D
Putting out things that are demonstrably not true has become very, very normal.
- [53:18]
C
Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy.
- [53:21]
D
Wherever you get your podcasts.