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- [00:04]
Bianna Golodryga
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. A foreign policy hawk and a staunch advocate for the war with Iran, Lindsey Graham's death is sending shockwaves across Washington as the ceasefire with Tehran falls apart. I speak to former Republican Senator Jeff Flake about what this means for the gop.
- [00:27]
Jeff Flake
Then the Israeli army should right now should be here and kicking them out. It's illegal for them to be there.
- [00:33]
Bianna Golodryga
A father's quest for closure. One year on from the killing of a Palestinian American in the occupied West Bank, a report on the impunity Israeli settlers still have there. Plus is the end of reading here as younger generations read less and scroll more. Atlantic staff writer Rose Horowitz joins me to explain what a post literate world looks like.
- [00:58]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
And this can happen to any woman and child. And I think it's very hard for most people to stay focused there and realize that these are preventable deaths torn
- [01:10]
Bianna Golodryga
apart by gun violence and domestic abuse prevention. Advocate Doreen Dodgin McGee speaks to Michelle Martin about her family's tragedy and how gun laws can protect women from the deadly consequences of violent partners. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Godriga, New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. We begin with a sudden death, setting off a scramble in the US Senate. Senator Lindsey Graham, a foreign policy hawk and an emblematic figure of the Republican Party, passed away on Saturday at the age of 71. Once a scathing Trump critic, he turned into one of the president's strongest allies. He was also one of the loudest voices backing the U. S. Israeli war with Iran. Here's President Trump's reaction to his passing.
- [02:13]
Jeff Flake
He's a great politician.
- [02:15]
Bianna Golodryga
He was a natural.
- [02:16]
Jeff Flake
There are very few of them. He was a natural politician, got along with everybody. There was no better advocate. He was a fantastic advocate in the Senate.
- [02:26]
Bianna Golodryga
A deaf politician, Graham often crossed party lines to secure bipartisan agreements. His latest, a proposed sanctions package on Russian oil announced last week. But no such breakthrough is on the horizon on Iran, and it's pushing President Trump into a corner after the US Hit more Iranian targets over the weekend. Traffic through the Strait of Hormuz is grinding to a halt. Oil prices are rising and the ceasefire is crumbling. Our next guest used to work alongside Senator Graham, but has significantly different views on President Trump. Jeff Flake is a former Republican senator for Arizona and he joins me now. He's also Ambassador to Turkey. Mr. Ambassador, welcome to the program. So let's just talk about the passing of your longtime colleague. I know he was a friend as well. You told NPR that your friendship actually began with locker side by side in the House gym, and that Graham, with no family in Washington, quote, was always looking for people to have dinner with. Who was Lindsey Graham when the cameras were off?
- [03:35]
Jeff Flake
Well, he was the funniest senator by far, and he was a joy to be with. He just. He didn't like to be alone. He liked to be with people. And so we spent many evenings together when he was in the Senate. He'd give a call, what are you doing? If he didn't have any plans, he wanted to be with people. And that was Lindsey. But I think that Lindsey is an old, old politician in the sense of the, you know, an institutionalist. Everett Dirksen once said, I have unbending principles, and that first principle is to be flexible. And that certainly personifies Lindsey. And that's why he was such an effective legislator.
- [04:17]
Bianna Golodryga
When was the last time the two of you spoke?
- [04:21]
Jeff Flake
Oh, a couple of months ago. It was a couple of months ago. I had dealt with Lindsey a lot while I was ambassador to Turkey, particularly the effort to get Sweden into NATO. There were some things that Turkey wanted the US Congress to do, and Lindsey was very effective in bringing that about. So we have a lot of discussions while he was in D.C. and I was in Turkey, and we've talked a few times since.
- [04:48]
Bianna Golodryga
And he was effective objectively in trying to persuade the president repeatedly to keep the NATO alliance together with the US Leading the way. The most recent NATO summit just last week, also highlighted that push from Lindsey Graham. The president over the weekend, when he was speaking to a number of networks, including cn, and talking and mourning about the passing of his friend, noted some of his brightest moments, in his view. And one of them was when he said that the senator excoriated you during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. It was in a committee room. It was in private, but he excoriated you for pushing for an FBI investigation into some of the claims of sexual abuse and violence. And then you said that some night over dinner, he told you that you did the right thing. So tell us more about what that story says about who Lindsey Graham was.
- [05:55]
Jeff Flake
Well, that was Lindsey. He's adaptable, and he was very much opposed to prolonging the investigation or to launching an FBI investigation. I felt strongly that we needed to do that. And he did go right after me in the committee room, and then in the anteroom even louder, saying, you can't do this. You can't do this. But I did. And within a couple of Hours, he was back at me saying, hey, that was the best thing ever. Let's go have dinner. And we did. And that was Lindsey. He adapted. He adapted to the Trump era, and he felt that he could influence the president. And as you mentioned in particular, in terms of American leadership abroad, Lindsey has had a tremendous effect, I think, in keeping NATO alliance together, making sure that American leadership, you know, goes on in Europe. That's important.
- [06:51]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, that adaptation that you just noted, he was really emblematic of the sort of arc that we saw with the Republican Party and how initially there had been fierce criticism of Donald Trump when he set down those that escalator at Trump Tower in 2015, announcing his bid for the presidency to today. In fact, in 2015, Lindsey Graham said that the answer to making America great again was to tell Donald Trump to go to hell. He's changed quite a bit since then. Listen to the joke that he made just last month about the president.
- [07:30]
Jeff Flake
I want to start with a bunch of thank yous. I want to thank the big guy. God, Trump comes later.
- [07:37]
Bianna Golodryga
Mr. President, you're not far behind.
- [07:39]
Jeff Flake
God, but we're going to start.
- [07:42]
Bianna Golodryga
And that was Lindsey Graham celebrating his primary win again just last month for a fifth term, seeking the Senate position there in South Carolina. Jonathan Martin of Politico writes this morning that. That what we saw was an example of a cynical capitulation. But maybe it was worth it, as you note, because that embrace of Donald Trump while still maintaining his hawkish support for alliances, for fight against Russia with sanctions and for keeping the US with NATO, that that worked. Do you believe that this capitulation, if that's what it was, was worth it ultimately?
- [08:24]
Jeff Flake
Well, I just say I couldn't do it. I'm not a good enough politician, apparently. But I was always glad that Lindsey was there. I always knew that he believed in strong American leadership, he believed in our alliances, and that he was influencing the president. And he did. So I can't speak to whether it's capitulation or not. I'm just glad he was there as long as he was.
- [08:49]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, Lindsey Graham, to his credit, I guess, was very transparent. When asked why the change? Why was he constantly embracing the president? Why was someone who was such an ardent critic become such a supporter? And he said that it came down to being relevant, that Donald Trump called him, they spoke frequently, even the hours, apparently before passing, that he played golf with him, that he made him feel important to be in the room. As you just noted, you were different. And we recall your speech on the Senate floor in 2017, when you said that you would not seek another term, you said, I will not be complicit. And that ultimately cost your career. Watching how Lindsey Graham's story has ended now, do you ever wonder back about your own choice?
- [09:39]
Jeff Flake
No, not at all. Not for a minute. You know, I. I had to face my family and. And I had, you know, said that I didn't agree with the president's policies and couldn't condone his behavior. And for me to just flip on a dime and say, hey, you know, those policies I disagreed with that are growing on me or the President's behavior, I kind of like it now. I just couldn't do it. But, I mean, there are, you know, a couple of ways to influence. I don't pretend for a minute that I can have as much influence outside of the Senate, but I, you know, I just couldn't turn on a dime and do that. I don't think I would have been effective at it, and I certainly wouldn't have slept well at night.
- [10:22]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, we do know that Lindsey Graham was very public in supporting President Trump, some say even convincing President Trump to strike Iran, to take out the Ayatollah, that that had been one his most pressing policies that he had been focused on is bringing down the Iranian regime, even if that meant a kinetic war. He spoke at the Munich Security Conference with Christian Amanpour just two weeks before the war started. And here's what he said about that. Here's the day after I worry the most about the day after we blinked, the day after we made promises that we didn't keep, we made assurances that fell short.
- [11:06]
Jeff Flake
That day after is generational damage.
- [11:10]
Bianna Golodryga
Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, they don't go away. They come back stronger. The Arabs go back into their corner,
- [11:15]
Jeff Flake
and the people who have been protesting
- [11:17]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
will be systematically destroyed.
- [11:20]
Bianna Golodryga
So here we are today. The regime has not changed. The Strait of Hormuz remains closed. The president just today threatened to reinstitute the blockade and charge for the US to charge a tol for any ships passing. The cease fire is all but dead. I'm just wondering where things stand right now. Do you think that Lindsey Graham was right in trying to persuade the President to take these actions?
- [11:49]
Jeff Flake
Well, I don't think we can get in the back rooms and know who had an influence. I don't think that it was the right thing to do the way the president waged this war. I think there are other ways we could have gone about this. And I. I think the fact that we're in the position that we're in today speaks to that. So I don't know. I wasn't in those rooms to see who influenced whom on that, but this was the wrong choice by the President. I don't know how anyone with a straight face can look at the situation and think that we're in a better place now for what has gone on. This is going to be very difficult to get out of, you know, keeping the position of the U.S. you know, strengthened and attached. It's really going to be tough.
- [12:37]
Bianna Golodryga
So what do you prescribe now? What do you think the United States, if President Trump, I don't imagine he would do this, if he decided to pick up the phone and give you a call and pick your brain, get some thoughts from you on what he should do now, given where things stand, what should the US Do?
- [12:55]
Jeff Flake
Well, obviously the president is trying to negotiate, but we don't have a very good hand. He talked about Ukraine and President Zelensky not having a good hand and not having any cards. That's kind of where we are with regard to the Strait of Hormuz. It's so easy for Iran to keep that closed. And so I just don't know how we do it without kinetic action going forward. But that has its own problems. So, you know, part of the problem is we've kind of shelved, you know, true diplomacy. And I don't see any real diplomats there who can actually put an MoU together that means something or can see beyond an MoU. That's what we're really hurting right now. We just don't have the people. And the, the president, the people that he's relying on, I don't think have done an adequate job.
- [13:54]
Bianna Golodryga
Lindsey Graham's last trip to Kyiv was just last week, last Friday. I think this was his 10th trip since the larger scale invasion of February 2022. He was on the cusp of a sanctions deal, finally, that he had been pursuing that perhaps could have changed Putin's calculus. Speaker, Senate Majority Leader John Thune just said today on our air that he thinks that passing the Russian sanction pack would be an incredible legacy for Lindsey Graham. Do you think there's enough support in the Senate right now? Do you think the president would sign it?
- [14:31]
Jeff Flake
There's certainly numerical support. I think the Last count was 85 co sponsors. So, yes, the question is, will Republicans in the Senate and the House, you know, actually override the President if he threatens a veto? But this speaks to Lindsey Graham's effectiveness. He worked with Richard Blumenthal and others and pushed this hard. So I hope that they do move forward with that. I hope the president will sign it. But if he doesn't sign it, I would hope that the Congress would simply override that. That rarely happens these days. Presidents, you know, see see the ground shifting and comply. I suppose he would here, but that would be a good tribute to Lindsey Graham. I can tell you. Ukraine would not be in the strong position that it is today without Lindsey Graham. He has been dogged in this and has mentioned 10 visits since the invasion in 2022. That's a lot of commitment.
- [15:29]
Bianna Golodryga
So what happens to Ukraine without Lindsey Graham?
- [15:33]
Jeff Flake
Well, gratefully, gratefully Europe has stepped up, but Lindsey's help was really needed to help Europe step up. So I think that we're beyond the time that Ukraine is in the danger they were before and that is much owed to Lindsey Graham. But still, it would help if President Trump would be committed and actually cross President Putin here and actually move forward and use the position that Ukraine is in to our advantage in negotiations. But the president hasn't seen seemed willing to do that yet. I hope he changes his mind.
- [16:15]
Bianna Golodryga
Jeff Flake, we'll have to leave it there. We appreciate the time. Thank you for joining the show and again, our condolences for the loss of your longtime friend.
- [16:23]
Jeff Flake
Thank you.
- [16:25]
Bianna Golodryga
Do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.
- [16:34]
Jeff Flake
Finding a source you can trust for weather forecasts should be easy, right? This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Check your daily forecast to plan your day, the weekly forecast to see what's on the way and prepare for any major storm with our robust real time video coverage. The app is stunning and if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in depth stories and the photo of the day. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.
- [17:04]
Bianna Golodryga
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. A Few weeks ago SpaceX, Elon Musk's RO satellite social media and AI company
- [17:15]
Rose Horowitz
debuted its stock on the public market.
- [17:17]
Bianna Golodryga
It was the biggest IPO or initial public offering in history. I had group chats and in person conversations with friends wondering if they should try to buy SpaceX stock when it went public. And Axios senior AI reporter Madison Mills was having those same conversations too.
- [17:35]
Rose Horowitz
Everyone I talked to overwhelmingly said if you must please wait a year, give yourself at least a couple quarters to hear from these companies to be to see whether they are able to turn a profit, what their revenue growth looks like, what their operating Expenses look like, given how much money they're having to spend to keep up in the AI race.
- [17:54]
Bianna Golodryga
Listen to CNN's terms of service wherever
- [17:57]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
you get your podcasts.
- [18:04]
Bianna Golodryga
Now. It has been one year since the death of Palestinian American Saif Musalat, who was killed by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. While visiting relatives seeking some desperately needed closure, his father has returned to the site for the first time in a year. But his journey quickly turned dangerous as armed Israeli settlers ambushed and attacked his convoy, facing few consequences. Jeremy Dimond was there, and he has this report from the occupied West Bank.
- [18:33]
Jeremy Diamond
Kamal Muslit hasn't been able to reach this land in over a year. This is the hillside where his son Saif, an American citizen, was killed. Looks like it's down here if you want to walk. Beaten to death by Israeli settlers exactly one year ago. Since then, settlers have illegally occupied the area, preventing this father from getting the closure he so desperately seeks.
- [18:59]
Jeff Flake
We have to keep an eye because usually they'll come down that way.
- [19:02]
Jeremy Diamond
We've come here in an armored vehicle, wearing bulletproof vests because of how violent these settlers have been. But we've made it. What does it feel like to finally
- [19:12]
Jeff Flake
be here after a year? It's just like I'm. To be honest with you, I'm imagining, like, Just imagining him, you know, like. So it's just thought a lot going on in my head right now, like just what he went through during at that moment.
- [19:38]
Jeremy Diamond
I'll let you take a moment.
- [19:39]
Jeff Flake
Come on.
- [19:43]
Jeremy Diamond
But this solemn, sacred moment won't last. Within seconds, we spot a car speeding towards us. We start to leave, but as we drive away, we see that four settlers have set up a roadblock. Armed with clubs and rocks. They try and block our way first with their bodies, then and then. And now. It looks like he's trying to slash our tires. He's trying to slash our tires.
- [20:05]
Bianna Golodryga
Oh, he's got a knife. He's going for the tires.
- [20:07]
Jeremy Diamond
A group of independent journalists and activists are in the car behind us.
- [20:12]
Jeff Flake
Move. Move, bitch.
- [20:14]
Jeremy Diamond
But their vehicle isn't armored.
- [20:20]
Michelle Martin
Watch out.
- [20:21]
Jeremy Diamond
Watch out.
- [20:22]
Jeff Flake
Without an armored car, without a bulletproof vest, how do I get to my land? The Israeli army should right now should be here and kicking them out. It's illegal for them to be there.
- [20:35]
Jeremy Diamond
It's frustrating.
- [20:37]
Jeff Flake
You're so angry and you can't do nothing about. Just kills you from inside.
- [20:43]
Jeremy Diamond
But the settlers aren't done. More arrive, blocking another road before chasing us and attacking us again.
- [20:51]
Jeff Flake
Nope.
- [20:51]
Jeremy Diamond
They're trying to stop our car again. They're hitting us. We finally make it back to safety where I get on the phone with the Israeli military which is responsible for security in this area. But settlers have also called the military and these soldiers are only interested in harassing us, refusing to take action against the settlers. Minutes later, the commander of a different battalion arrives and sends his soldiers after the settlers, detaining them until the police arrive. The Israel police said they arrested four suspects and seized clubs and a knife. They vowed to, quote, bring them to justice. Accordingly, a full year later, Kamal Muslit is still waiting for his son's killers to be brought to justice.
- [21:40]
Jeff Flake
No one's been arrested. No accountability.
- [21:43]
Jeremy Diamond
Saif was just two weeks shy of his 21st birthday when he was killed. A Florida native, he had been visiting his family in the West Bank. At the time, US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee condemned Muslim's killing as a criminal and terrorist act and vowed to pressure Israel to bring his killers to justice. I reached out to the U.S. embassy. I sent them a list of questions and this is the response they gave me. They said the Trump administration has no higher priority than the safety and security of Americans. Due to privacy considerations, we have no further information to provide at this time.
- [22:18]
Jeff Flake
I just feel if that was true, you know, they would do something about it, you know, at least an open investigation, you know, that's the least that they could do if it was anywhere else in the world. An American citizen was killed by a mob of extremists of terrorists. What kind of outrage would there be? You know, how disappointed would Sayfullah be right now that his US Passport did nothing for him?
- [22:48]
Jeremy Diamond
Saif believed in that blue passport. Blue is blue.
- [22:52]
Jeff Flake
Not because he's an American, he's just an American.
- [22:56]
Jeremy Diamond
But his family is still waiting for it to mean something, anything, in their pursuit of justice.
- [23:05]
Bianna Golodryga
Jeremy Dimon reporting there from the West Bank. Well, now, are we witnessing the death of reading? Our next guest says so. And we endlessly scroll through TikTok, YouTube and Instagram. We're also seeing attention spans at the same time declining. And fewer and fewer people are reaching to pick up a book. In our new cover story for the Atlantic, writer Rose Horowitz argues that we're heading for a post literature era. It presents an existential challenge, particularly for younger Americans and educators. With college students now unable to easily comprehend a text that would have been standard reading in years gone by. To discuss all of this, Rose Horwich joins me now from New York. Rose, welcome to the program. Don't take offense to this, but this was an utterly depressing read and also very important. So I'm glad we're having this conversation. And the headline itself is a pretty bold declaration. The age of reading is over. Not declining, but over. And as noted in the introductions, Americans, one could argue, have access now, whether electronic, to the number of bookstores, a library. They have access to so many options and so many books, and yet we're reading less. How did you come to that conclusion?
- [24:25]
Rose Horowitz
Yes, so it is clear from the data that Americans are reading much less than we used to. You know, the share of Americans who read a book or an article on any given day declined by 40% over the past 20 years. You know, in 2022, which is the last year that we have good data for, you know, fewer than half of all Americans read a book of any kind. And, you know, we know that now gambling is a more popular leisure activity than reading is. And so what I argue in the piece is that, you know, this is. This data represents a broad shift in society. When reading and writing first appeared 6,000 years ago, it fundamentally changed the way people thought, the way politics and culture worked. And I argue that we're now seeing, you know, that shift happen again as reading goes away, and we're seeing shifts in our consciousness in how we elect candidates, in what our culture values. And so I try to point out, you know, where those shifts are all around us.
- [25:25]
Bianna Golodryga
And you have some pretty striking statistics here to back up this argument. Fewer than half of American adults have read a single book in 2022. Daily reading for pleasure has now halved since 2004. And as you just noted, last year, more Americans placed a bet than read a book. But you're careful to say that America isn't illiterate, it's post literate. And we see that word throughout your piece. Just explain to our viewers what post, literally literate means.
- [25:57]
Rose Horowitz
Yes, exactly. So people might be reading more words than ever before when you think about emails and text messages and social media posts. And so it's not that people are illiterate or that they actually can't, you know, read words or a sentence. What's changing is our ability to actually persist through, you know, a complex work. And so that's what I meant by post literate. That reading is no longer the primary way that people sort of acquire. Acquire information or transmit culture or news or entertainment. And so that's what I meant by post literate.
- [26:35]
Bianna Golodryga
And we're seeing an actual change in our brain function as well as a result of this. You cite UCLA Neuroscientist Marianne Wolf, who argues that people aren't just forgetting how to decode words, they're losing synthesis and comprehension.
- [26:52]
Rose Horowitz
Yes. So we know that one of the bedrock principles in neuroscience is that people's brains master what they practice. And so if we aren't reading, we're going to have a lot less background knowledge to aid in comprehension. We're going to be much less accustomed to kind of persisting through a challenging work and much more accustomed to switching our attention. And we also just aren't going to really develop those skills of complex synthesis and analysis. And that shows up in tests. You know, we know that American adults ability to, you know, decode logic puzzles and analyze patterns and do complex reasoning has declined over the past two decades.
- [27:34]
Bianna Golodryga
You mentioned that this has impacted many facets throughout society, including politics as well. And you actually called Trump our first post literate president. And you reference sort of the juvenile signature nickname that he had as he was campaigning, especially in 2020, in 2015, for presidents. That was the Sleepy Joe, Little Marco, Crooked Hillary. And you say these weren't just acting as insults, it's how leaders were acting and communicated before the written word. So something short, something catchy, something memorable.
- [28:15]
Rose Horowitz
Yes. So Trump, you know, as I said, that he was our first post literate president. You know, he actually retrieves a lot of the conventions of preliterate eras. You know, he uses those epithets that you were just mentioning, like Sleepy Joe, that are almost a callback to Homer. You know, the repetition aids in remembering. They're easy to repeat. You know, Trump also speaks with a lot of emotional resonance, which is easier to remember than dispassionate information. You know, he also kind of just, you know, goes full steam ahead and contradicts himself, which is, you know, similar to the way people communicated in pre literate cultures where there was no record of something that you said before. And so he has really figured out how to kind of seize on a lot of the conventions of the post literate age and how to be a really successful politician in this moment.
- [29:06]
Bianna Golodryga
But you're also clear to point out this isn't just a Trump story. You quote David Plouffe, who was the architect of President Obama's campaigns, and he's advocating that candidates can't fit an Instagram post or a 10 second TikTok. If they can't get their message across within those 10 seconds, they need to go back to the drawing board. You call this a disaster for self government? Why? Because it is memorable and catchy and it Stands out when people are trying to figure out who they're going to cast their vote for.
- [29:41]
Rose Horowitz
Yes, exactly. So, you know, people, politicians are more successful now if they kind of simplify things, if they are very, you know, spread a very emotional message, if they spread a populist message and kind of seem of the people. And so that is a really good way to get elected. You have 10 or 15 seconds in a video to kind of grab people's attention. But for governance, you know, policy issues are often very complex and you know, if you only have 10 or 15 seconds to communicate something or grab people's attention, you know, it is difficult to actually present something. And so I think that's now what we're seeing in, you know, this post literate politics is that, you know, the politicians that are successful at getting elected, you know, are the ones who are able to grab attention and sort of seem authentic and entertaining, but it's, you know, not clear that it's going to be a good thing for informed self governance.
- [30:36]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, and it's not just for reading that we've seen a lot of conversations and concern about a waning attention span, particularly in younger generations. You cite a pediatric researcher who compares scrolling TikTok to a lab rat pushing a button for cocaine. And a psychologist found that our attention spans actually fell from two and a half minutes in 2004 to 47 seconds today. That is stunning. Are the experts able to answer whether or not this is reversible?
- [31:12]
Rose Horowitz
So it does seem that it is reversible. You know, the same thing as I was mentioning earlier is people's brains get good at what they practice. So if we started practicing something different, if we started reading again, you know, then our brains would sort of get more background knowledge. They could be more accustomed to kind of focusing for a lengthy period of time. So nothing here is permanent, though. We are seeing sort of convincing changes.
- [31:36]
Bianna Golodryga
And so this is what the most alarming part to me in this, in this piece of yours is the fact that, and I don't want to put all of the burden and all the responsibility on teachers and schools, but this is where many families are expecting that their children will be first introduced to not just learning how to read, but a passion for reading. And you cite that teachers on average are assigning fewer books each year, sometimes even three or so, or less than four. I remember reading a book maybe once a month when I was going to public school growing up. So what has changed?
- [32:16]
Rose Horowitz
Yes, so there's been a real change in what teachers assign, you know, as you mentioned there was a survey of middle and high school teachers from last year that found that most assigned between zero and four books a year. And so they've steadily pulled books from the curriculum in favor of excerpts and practice, you know, answering reading comprehension questions that might come up on standardized tests. And so that's sort of one side of the coin. And then at the same time, we're also seeing that as books have left the classroom, you know, Chromebooks and tablets have really entered it. You know, in a survey of elementary school teachers, 80% said that students receive a digital device from school, you know, by kindergarten. And so we're seeing, you know, this huge change in just how school works and what happens there, you know, with far fewer books and much more time spent on these devices.
- [33:10]
Bianna Golodryga
I want to play an excerpt from an interview that Christiane just conducted with renowned American author Ann Patchett. She's the author of the Dutch House and Belle Canto, the new book Whistler. I just finished that last week. Really enjoyed reading that. She owns her own bookstores as well, and she said that she's an evangelical campaigner on the importance of reading. And here's what she said to Christiane about the declining rates of reading in this country. If I just went by the news and what I heard, I would think, oh, well, reading's dead.
- [33:43]
Jeff Flake
Books are dead.
- [33:43]
Bianna Golodryga
It's very, very bad. People aren't reading. Young people aren't reading. And yet every morning at the bookstore, there they are lined up, waiting to come in. People of all ages, people who love books, people who care so much about reading, and all of the authors who come and debut authors and young writers and famous writers and everybody wanting to get. Get together to come to the book club, to come to story time. There's still a very strong group of people who want to love books. I'm out on book tour right now, and every night I go to a different city, and I meet so many people who love to read and love books and find tremendous solace in the community of readers. So how do we scale that?
- [34:38]
Rose Horowitz
Yes. So, you know, it's interesting. If you look print book sales were actually higher last year than they were a decade ago. And so, you know, Ann Patchett's experience kind of lines up with that data that there are these positive signs that people are reading. And I think when we look at the data, what we find is that the people who do read are actually more invested in reading than ever before. They. They spend more time reading than they used to, but they're just becoming A smaller and smaller minority in society. So last year, 20% of Americans accounted for 80% of all the books that are read. So there is this community of readers, but they're just shrinking and sort of becoming a subculture. You know, one historian I spoke to compared reading for pleasure to gardening orchids or collecting stamps. So it's just sort of becoming a niche hobby now.
- [35:31]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, and as you noted, there are ways of countering that. And there does seem to be a correlation between book bans and more reading. An increase in reading. And nearly two dozen states have banned phones and schools. After Texas has banned, one Dallas district checked out 200,000 more library books. So that's a 25% jump in just one year. So hopefully that is something that other states can pay attention to as well. I do have to ask you, because, full disclosure, I listened to half of this article on Audible because I was watching my daughter and her sports lesson. So multitasking has really enabled me to read more books while I've been able to do other things and other priorities, just that life throws our way. How do you view and how do experts view audiobooks here?
- [36:25]
Rose Horowitz
So experts are largely pretty positive on audiobooks. You know, audiobooks have become a billion dollar industry, so clearly there still is an appetite for stories. And, you know, it's much better than people not reading or taking in books in any way. But I think, you know, what you mentioned, part of the reason that audiobooks have become so popular is because they allow you to multitask. They allow you to, you know, do the dishes or drive while you're reading. And, and so your comprehension isn't going to be as high if you're doing something else than if you were reading a book where you have to devote sustained focus to be able to take it in on the page.
- [37:04]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, I think I do have to retain, I retain more focus, though, better focus when I'm actually reading the page. Sometimes I have to go back and rewind. What did I just hear? What did they just say? But I do enjoy a good audiobook. Rose, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Fascinating piece. And we'll be right back after this.
- [37:20]
Rose Horowitz
Thank you for having me.
- [37:27]
Bianna Golodryga
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.
- [37:32]
Jeff Flake
This week's guest, Dr. Marshall Leonard. He once defended goals as a Major League Soccer player for the New England Revolution, but now he's defending life as an emergency medicine doctor at Stony Brook in New York. I have tried to understand, can I see when a player is in flow state just as a spectator Can I sort of observe this in some way?
- [37:54]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
You have such a unique lens on things now, both.
- [37:57]
Jeff Flake
Again, as a former player but now physician, can you tell when I'm watching the World Cup, I think that I can sort of see when a player's feeling it and is in a zone. Let your athleticism take over because you have that ability. So calm your mind, take a breath. I just say just do it like Nike. Just do it. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever
- [38:18]
Jeremy Diamond
you get your podcasts.
- [38:25]
Bianna Golodryga
Now. Homicide rates in the US Are at an all time low and yet domestic violence killings have stayed persistently high. Our next guest says these crimes are predictable and preventable. Following the painful murder of her sister in law and nieces, psychologist Doreen Dodgin McGee has spent the last three decades advocating for more protections against domestic violence and she speaks to Michelle Martin about what policymakers can do to intervene a warning. This conversation contains topics such as rape and female side that may be disturbing for some viewers.
- [39:00]
Michelle Martin
Thanks Bianna, Dr. Doreen Dodge and McGhee, thank you so much for talking with us.
- [39:05]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really honored and it's such a
- [39:09]
Michelle Martin
difficult subject to talk about, but I think we have to talk about it because there have been a number of very difficult stories in the news in recent weeks and months of individuals killing a spouse, in some cases killing their entire family. And just to start our conversation off, one of the reasons that you as a scholar and a researcher and a practitioner are interested in this subject is that this, you've had this experience in your own family. Do you mind telling us what happened?
- [39:43]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
I have had this experience in my family and I think the way that you mentioned that we need to talk about this is something I always want to highlight because when this did happen in my family, one of my first thoughts was, oh my gosh, we are that family now. There is such stigma to this reality of the milicide and it is really difficult to talk about and really difficult to hear about in my family's situation. My sister in law, Laura, had been married to her husband for a while and they had two children together. We could tell that there was a lot of course of control, some emotionally and verbally violent language and definitely behaviors that were troublesome. Laura was finally able to kind of see those things and understand them. And what we know now from her journals is that she was already dealing with a great fear of being killed. We helped her move out of her home in Seattle and she and her two daughters moved to Oregon right near us to live with my mother in law. And things were going pretty well until he broke into the house and raped her one day when the girls and my mother in law were with me. And that is what resulted in the pregnancy that brought us my youngest niece, April, before they were killed. I hosted a backpack packing party because it was my oldest nieces, Sarah's first day of kindergarten the next day. And she was so excited to have this new start. And by this time, because of the violence that had occurred, we had helped Laura get a restraining order, which was a hard fought legal process. She had gotten that. But that morning, angry over missing this big monumental event of Sarah's first day of kindergarten, Dave was able to purchase a gun, drove across state lines, came to the home as soon as Sarah was home from school, shot his way into the home at the back door, forcing my mother in law, Laura and all three girls out into the front yard, where he proceeded to shoot them and kill them all. My mother in law was. Had one of the girls kind of standing with her and was shot. He did not shoot her, I think to kill her, partially to punish her for her role in Laura leaving. And now in America, this was in 95. And now in America we know that 70 women on average are killed in a month in America by intimate partners. And we also know that guns are the one killer of children.
- [42:15]
Michelle Martin
One of the reasons we're talking about this is that we are in a moment when homicide rates have declined again. Overall homicide rates have declined, but family and intimate partner killings now account for 21% of all homicides. That's up from 15% in 2020. And the attacks in which someone kills four or more relatives, which is something to happen in your family, have already surpassed all of last year's total. And this year is just halfway through. So it just seems as though we are in some kind of strange moment. And I wanted to ask you as briefly as you can, you have to have noticed these numbers yourself. What do you think is going on here?
- [42:58]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
I think as a person who has worked within the gun violence prevention movement, I can tell you that we have taken seriously the issue of community violence. And there has been a lot of work around the country to address that. And we are seeing the impact, which means that when we pass common sense gun laws and legislators have the will to and the fortitude to enforce them, violence goes down. The issue with domestic violence killings is that the issues related to those kinds of violence are things that are deeply private. And in the home, they're things like substance Misuse, prior abuse, financial and economic concerns. And I think it's very hard for people to stay focused on the issue of the fact that, that this could be their family. One of the biggest things we hear with gun violence is, well, people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. My nieces and sister in law were in their mother and grandmother's yard. This can happen to any woman and child. And I think it's very hard for most people to stay focused there and realize that these are preventable deaths if we work hard to make them. So.
- [44:07]
Michelle Martin
One of the other insights that you have shared is that a lot of people talk about these terrible crimes, incidents, things that happen, as if it's just out of the blue, just totally unpredictable. Who could have imagined? And I think that one of your insights that comes from your work is that actually it's not. What are some of the things that people could be looking to, people who perhaps aren't thinking about, that they could be aware of?
- [44:38]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Yes. I think the first thing I would say is that we need to listen more to women. This is just a huge issue. Typically there are indicators that you can notice things like coercive control. You can also often if you listen well, you can hear women's fear. And I think sometimes people don't know what to do with that. Once there has been kind of either a disclosure that a woman feels afraid, or if a woman continues to talk about the fact that their partner has firearms and that concerns them, if people around them are willing to dig in and find some resources, it can be helpful. The other big thing to know is that when there is a marriage difficulty, a separation, a divorce, or again, those course control signs, typically if there is a large moment happening in that couple, or like for instance, their wedding anniversary, or in our story, Sarah's first day of kindergarten, a graduation, any of these large moments can really pique an abuser's feeling of missing out. And if they have, especially if they have access to a firearm, that is an incredibly impulsive and effective method for carrying out their frustration and violence.
- [45:52]
Michelle Martin
You've used the term coercive control. Can you tell us what you mean by that? For people who may not have heard that term before?
- [45:57]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Yeah. In the domestic violence world, there's a lot of shifting toward talking about coercive control as these small microaggressions that happen within relationships where a partner begins to understand that they are at risk if they diverge from what their partner wants them to do, or who they want them to be, or who they want them to be around. This can often lead to a lot of isolating of the partner that happened in our situation. Dave really did not want Laura having contact with us. It could be choices about no longer going to church or family groups or school socials. Anything that makes one person in the relationship in a one down position and the other in a one up.
- [46:38]
Michelle Martin
You indicated that you the family, you got hints that your sister in law was that there was something not right in the relationship. What about the kids? Did the kids show signs of being ill at ease with their dad?
- [46:54]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
They did. They were very hesitant to be with others. They were afraid and they talked about being fearful of their safety when they had visits with dad. Visits were supposed to be supervised, but they talked a lot about fear. They were always quite distressed after visits with their dad. And of course one of them was only five months old.
- [47:19]
Michelle Martin
Did the dad show signs of violent behavior before? Because the reason I asked that is why was he allowed to see the kids at all?
- [47:27]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
This is one of the frustrations. This is restraining order is a very hard fought, hard won legal requirement that women have to work hard to receive. And even with that restraining order in place after a very violent act, he was still awarded very short and with another person present visitations. That made absolutely no sense to us. I personally believe that this issue is what it is because women are still not valued and protected in this.
- [47:58]
Michelle Martin
Why wasn't he prosecuted? He broke into the house. There's evidence that he committed violence. Breaking into the house is itself a violent act in order to commit another act of violence, which is raping his separated spouse. So why wasn't he prosecuted for that?
- [48:14]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
And that is something that we will never know other than the fact that Laura again had been over time very much taught to believe that her voice should be questioned. It took us a long time to convince her to even seek a restraining order. And so a lot of that also happens where women are fearful of bringing forward what is going on because of the ongoing abuse that has occurred and coercive control that just leads them to believe that they are worth nothing and that they have no power in protecting their children.
- [48:49]
Michelle Martin
I want to talk a little bit more about access to guns because the research, research shows that access to a gun does make an abusive partner five times more likely to kill a woman. 85% of intimate partner homicide suicides involve a firearm. And I just wonder what that tells us about the relationship between domestic violence and gun access.
- [49:16]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Yeah, well, we live in the country that has the most guns. We now have more guns than we have people per capita. And we have very permissive firearm laws. And so it's not surprising, again, that the presence of this particularly intimidating and effective method of causing death increases the chance of that occurring in a situation that is already potentially volatile and where a person can be angry and impulsive. So while that statistic of 70 women on average in America are killed a month by a firearm, hundreds more are threatened and injured, but not killed. And this is why common sense gun laws work. They are lowering community violence. If we could pass specific common sense gun laws, that would lower the chance of family homicides, that would be incredible. And there are at least four ways we know could do that.
- [50:11]
Michelle Martin
Well, what are those ways? Yeah, tell me about that.
- [50:13]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
One of them would be extreme risk protection orders, which this is when an abused individual knows that their partner has a firearm and feels concerned, they can go to a judge and petition for this extreme risk protection order, which then allows someone to help that abuser rid themselves of their guns and helps them be stored until safety can be reestablished. This is a very effective law. Also, universal background checks or background checks for all gun purchases would help making sure that every state has laws where individuals who have been, as you referred to, convicted of either misdemeanor or felony domestic violence charges are not allowed to have firearms, and then that any firearms they already have are actually taken and held. And then the final legislation that would be very effective is safe storage or child access protection laws, which make sure that a firearm is kept in something like a biometric safe. Even just that small action of having to put your hand on the safe to open, it could give people time to flee or could give the person contemplating, which this is usually a very. I mean, it is planned, but at the end of the time, it is adrenaline fueled and, you know, somewhat impulsive when you pull that trigger. And so those, those laws could also be a huge help in this situation.
- [51:39]
Michelle Martin
How would having to get a gun out of a safe keep somebody who was on a race, who was in kind of in a rage tantrum like your relative was, stop them? And you're saying just because you're saying maybe that rage tantrum could pass, or that rage tantrum could give the other party time to figure out an exit strategy?
- [52:02]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
I think that's very emotional. I think all the time about the fact that if he would have had to have a safe in his car that he had to get that gun out, and if he. Or if he would have been, you know, if he would have paid attention to the fact that he was looking into the eyes of his five month old baby. Maybe he couldn't have changed his mind. But again, when we just have easy access and nothing that interrupts that process, we're going to have increasing amounts of deaths. And when we also aren't protecting women in the ways that I believe they deserve to be protecting.
- [52:39]
Michelle Martin
Before I let you go, is there if someone were listening to our conversation and was worried about someone in their family and thought, gee, I think that something's not quite right and I want to be helpful here. What are some of the ways you could open up that conversation?
- [52:57]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Thank you for asking that. The first thing to do is to look within your state to see if you have an extreme risk protection law or they are also sometimes called red flag laws. There are people within each state who can help a person move through that legal process. And it is a quick legal process, but it is a fully vetted and safe legal process. I would also encourage people to seek out sources like Brady everytime for gun Safety, Newtown Action Alliance. They oftentimes have resources that can help people tap into, you know, how do you begin to talk about the reality of fear, of potential death at the hands of your partner in such a way? With therapists. Because a lot of therapists aren't also aware. So you can gather resources there that can help empower that person. And I think finally the thing that I would just say over and over and over again is believe women. If you have a niggling feeling that something isn't right, ask questions, come with a few resources, listen well, listen over time until a woman feels safe to tell you and then find the resources in your community that can be of help.
- [54:06]
Michelle Martin
Well, Dr. Doreen, Dodge and McGee, thank you so much for talking with me.
- [54:10]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Thank you.
- [54:12]
Bianna Golodryga
And if you or someone you know needs help in the US Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline around the world UN Women or the Pixel Project has a list of resources for you. And finally we remember a titan of the silver screen. Actor Sam Neill has died at the age of 78. Best known for his role in Jurassic park As a paleontologist, Dr. Alan Grant Neil worked on more than 150 film and TV projects in the last five decades. Tributes have described him as one of the greats and a national treasure, crediting him for being a trailblazer for fellow New Zealanders back home. Loved watching him on the screen. All right, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching. Goodbye from New York.
- [55:04]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper on my podcast,
- [55:07]
Bianna Golodryga
All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities.
- [55:12]
Michelle Martin
My mom would always say, the only way out is through. The only way out is through. There are no shortcuts. You have to feel it.
- [55:20]
Bianna Golodryga
Her name is Nicole Avant.
- [55:22]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
She's a producer, a former diplomat, and an author.
- [55:26]
Bianna Golodryga
In 2021, Nicole's mom, Jacqueline, was shot to death by an intruder in her home. She was 81 years old and had
- [55:32]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
been married to Nicole's dad, Clarence, for 54 years. How is grief different for you now than it was? Maybe at first.
- [55:40]
Michelle Martin
A lot of really positive memories have now taken over, versus the shock and the trauma. The grief is still there, but it shows up kind of with a smile instead.
- [55:50]
Bianna Golodryga
Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about.
- [55:55]
Doreen Dodgin McGee
This is all there is.
- [55:56]
Bianna Golodryga
Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.