Amanpour – "Fighting Back Against Trump"
CNN Podcasts | April 16, 2025
Overview
This episode of Amanpour, hosted by Christiane Amanpour, delivers in-depth conversations on the Trump administration’s crackdown on higher education, a growing fightback from university leaders, and the wider implications for academic freedom and democracy. The show also explores Pope Francis’s moral leadership in the age of global populism, and features a discussion on women's journeys to religious conversion in increasingly secular societies.
Segment 1: The Trump Administration vs. Higher Education
Topic Introduction
- Christiane Amanpour discusses the Trump administration's measures against universities, including demands to drop DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) programs, punish student protesters, and a subsequent freeze on billions in federal funds.
- The administration also threatens universities’ tax-exempt status and has revoked visas for over 600 foreign students and academics, with some arrests and threatened deportations without due process ([02:28]).
Key Discussion: Michael Roth, President of Wesleyan University
Main Points
- Roth explains his stance in resisting unlawful government demands, while still complying with laws such as the end of affirmative action.
"There are some things the federal government can rightly insist upon... But there are some things that the government insists upon that are contrary to law."
— Michael Roth ([04:23]) - The administration’s “outrageous arrest and threatened deportation of international students” triggered his outcry, emphasizing the right to free expression regardless of immigration status.
On His NYT Op-Ed on Antisemitism & Trump
- Roth, addressing fellow Jews, decries support for Trump’s policies as ultimately self-destructive:
"Jews who align themselves with leaders because they think those leaders are picking on other people. Eventually, the Jews find themselves the targets of that same abuse... You may like the way they violate the law now, but in the future, it'll be at our own expense."
([06:36])
On Campus Climate & Academic Freedom
- Roth insists universities must protect all students from fear—whether Jewish or Palestinian or otherwise:
"If I'm a young Palestinian and I want to write an essay... or if I'm a young Jew and want to write an essay for Palestinian rights, I shouldn't be worried that the government is going to crack down on me because of my opinions. It's un-American."
— Michael Roth ([09:12]) - He likens current efforts at ideological control to McCarthy-era loyalty oaths, warning such government meddling weakens the nation academically and morally ([12:35]).
Notable Quote
"The idea that you can say you're fighting antisemitism and then cancel DEI programs which actually can be used to protect Jews is absurd... What the Trump administration is doing now is demanding a loyalty oath. They are demanding that schools express loyalty to the president and his current beliefs."
— Michael Roth ([06:36])
On the Chilling Effect and Universities' Response
- Amanpour and Roth note the chilling widespread fear in academia.
- Roth shares that efforts are underway for a unified response:
"I've been trying to get schools together... I think in the next four or five days you'll see statements from some national organizations... a declaration defending the freedoms that are so important for a good education."
— Michael Roth ([21:55])
Funding & Conservative Critique
- The threatened funding covers a broad swath: scientific research, defense, energy, medical grants—not just DEI. The funding freeze is seen as punitive rather than principled ([14:20]).
- Amanpour references conservative activist Chris Rufo's stated aim to “take down” liberal universities—policies credited with the ousting of several Ivy presidents.
- Roth acknowledges higher-ed’s political imbalance but warns against governmental ideological hiring:
"We need more ideological diversity on campus... But the government choosing people by ideology is a recipe for disaster."
— Michael Roth ([17:54])
Segment 2: Pope Francis as a Moral Counterweight
Guest: David Gibson, Religious Scholar and Journalist
Main Points
- Pope Francis emerges as the "polar opposite of Donald Trump" on the world stage, advocating for human rights, open debate, and scientific research ([25:23]).
- In his recent illness, the Pope continued to speak out for democracy and against nationalist populism and migration crackdowns.
Memorable Quote
"Remember Christiane a month ago? We didn't think the Pope was going to survive... but what I don't think was getting enough play was what an important champion [he is]... against nationalist populism, the kind of Trumpism that's gone rampant around the globe..."
— David Gibson ([25:23])
Clash with US Conservative Catholics
- Discusses the sharp divide between Pope Francis’s global, inclusive vision and US Catholics such as Vice President J.D. Vance, who criticize the Pope’s humanitarian focus.
- Pope Francis rebuked Vance and others for their nativist, self-serving interpretations of Christian theology ([27:22]).
On Pope Francis's Background and Approach
- Jorge Mario Bergoglio’s outsider status shapes his empathy for the marginalized and prioritization of church reform ([30:30]).
- His association with migrants and “the least of these” has brought criticism and even open rebellion among conservative prelates, especially from the US and other wealthy Western nations ([32:51]).
Will His Reforms Last?
- Concerns exist that future popes could undo Francis’s inclusive approach, depending on the outcome of the next conclave.
"What one pope can do, another pope can undo. I think it would wreak great damage... but there is a real backlash, a conservative backlash against some of these things he's done."
— David Gibson ([36:25])
Final Reflection on Francis
"The humanity of Francis, the Christianity..."
— David Gibson ([37:56])
Segment 3: Women’s Journeys to Faith in a Secular Age
Guest: Kelsey Osgood, Author of "Seven Women’s Unexpected Journeys to Religious Conversion"
Interviewed by Michelle Martin
Overview
- Osgood and Martin discuss why, in an era marked by increasing secularism (per Pew Research: 'nones' rising from 16% in 2007 to 29% in 2021), some women are drawn to rigorous religious observance ([39:36]).
Key Insights from Osgood
- Osgood focused on women because “most people would assume that... to join a most organized religions would be to take a step backward in terms of your own freedom... but data shows women more often convert and are active in faiths.” ([40:19])
- She describes her own journey from secular New York upbringing to mystical, conservative Judaism via meaningful encounters with observant Jews in adolescence ([42:07]).
Stories from the Book
- Each subject found in faith something unfulfilled by secular or rational frameworks:
- Leah, a rationalist and debater, embraced Catholicism after concluding morality must have an external, transcendent source ([44:43]).
- Hannah, a white Midwesterner, converted to a strict Islamic practice and moved to Saudi Arabia, transforming over time from full face covering (niqab) to mainly scarves, finding inner peace more important than outward conformity ([48:07]).
- Themes of spiritual longing, transformation, and cultural tension (such as “cultural appropriation” concerns) recur throughout ([48:07]–[51:30]).
Memorable Reflections
"Religion... can almost be thought of more as like the act of falling in love."
— Kelsey Osgood ([48:07])
"We had a lot of... points of convergence in our experiences... a lot of these things sort of look irrational. And a lot of the ways our lives can be sort of similar even though some of the underpinnings... are very different."
— Osgood ([53:06])
Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps
- "[The Trump administration is] demanding that schools express loyalty to the president and his current beliefs. This has nothing to do with anti-antisemitism..." — Michael Roth ([06:36])
- "Whether I agree with the protesters or not is irrelevant. And it should be irrelevant to the federal government." — Michael Roth ([09:12])
- “This is an attempt to impose the kind of regulation on Harvard that ... we don't think of as democracies, countries that don't have free speech protections.” — Larry Summers, former Harvard president ([10:39] via soundbite)
- "We've had Lin Manuel Miranda... who want to write the next Hamilton because he was a student here." — Michael Roth ([17:54])
- "The government is good at funding these departments... but it is not good at picking winners." — Michael Roth ([20:28])
- "Pope Francis very much... on behalf of human rights and democracy." — David Gibson ([25:23])
- "J.D. Vance... a baby Catholic... directly attacked the Pope... called them greedy for taking federal money to help resettle refugees and immigrants." — David Gibson ([28:25])
- "[Religious conversion] doesn’t really fit neatly into those categories. It can almost be thought of more as the act of falling in love." — Kelsey Osgood ([48:07])
Significant Timestamps
- [02:28] – Amanpour outlines the Trump administration's crackdown on universities
- [04:09] – Michael Roth explains at what point he decided to resist
- [06:36] – Discussion of Roth’s op-ed and Jewish responses to Trump’s policies
- [09:12] – Protecting all students on campus, fear, and free speech
- [10:39] – Larry Summers’ warning about US approaching non-democracy practices
- [12:35] – Parallels to McCarthyism and loyalty oaths in academia
- [14:20] – What federal funding freeze actually impacts
- [17:54] – Bias in university faculty and need for diversity
- [21:55] – Universities planning a unified defense of academic freedom
- [25:23] – David Gibson on Pope Francis as a moral voice against global populism
- [27:22] – Vatican’s public disagreements with J.D. Vance and Trump
- [32:51] – Pope’s opposition’s power base in the US and wealthier nations
- [36:25] – Will Church reforms last after Francis?
- [39:36] – Introduction of women’s religious conversions in a secular era
- [44:43] – Stories of personal transformation through faith
- [48:07] – The experience and meaning of conversion likened to falling in love
- [51:30] – Navigating interfaith experiences as an Orthodox Jew
Tone & Language
- The episode maintains Christiane Amanpour’s characteristic incisive, clear interview style—serious, compassionate, urgent.
- Discussions are direct, citing evidence and personal testimony.
- Guest experts and authors speak with candor and self-reflection.
Summary
Amanpour's "Fighting Back Against Trump" weaves together urgent issues: the fight for academic freedom in the face of government overreach, the role of moral leadership exemplified by Pope Francis today, and the countercultural journeys of women embracing faith. Through expert voices and unforgettable stories, the episode underscores the importance of protecting democratic values, speaking out in the face of coercion, and acknowledging the power and complexity of personal conviction.