Finding Light Amongst Darkness This Festive Season

Summary

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Amanpour – "Finding Light Amongst Darkness This Festive Season"

Date: December 20, 2025
Host: Bianna Golodryga (sitting in for Christiane Amanpour)
Main Theme:
Exploring hope, resilience, and the search for light during a season shadowed by violence and turmoil—within faith communities, through pop culture, political struggle, and global affairs. In this episode: the aftermath of a deadly anti-Semitic attack in Australia, an acclaimed Korean film on unemployment and dignity, Uganda’s presidential opposition under threat, the British monarchy’s modern reckoning, a refugee family’s story of freedom, and a celebration of Jane Austen.

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Segment 1: Light in Darkness – Responding to Anti-Semitic Violence in Australia

[01:01–09:57]
Guest: Rabbi Gabi Kaltman, Melbourne
Topic: Aftermath of the Bondi Beach Hanukkah attack

• Attack Context:

  • Mass shooting at a Hanukkah celebration on Sydney’s Bondi Beach; 15 killed, including a 10-year-old girl, a rabbi, and a Holocaust survivor.
  • The Jewish community in Australia is small (0.5% of the population, ~100,000 people) and deeply interconnected.

• Rabbi Kaltman on Community Impact:

  • “The community here in Australia, the Jewish community at least, is heartbroken. We're shattered. We're in the middle of just an unimaginable nightmare situation.” (03:03)
  • Describes knowing several victims personally.

• On Gathering and Spiritual Response:

  • Rabbi Kaltman emphasizes the importance of resilience:
    • “We must summon the strength and the character of the heroes of the story of Hanukkah, the Maccabees... To push away that darkness... We've been here before... Each time we've persevered, we've gotten up, we've shaken ourselves off and we've continued on with love, with hope, holding steadfast to our Torah, our traditions, our faith and our beliefs.” (04:31)

• On Safety and Government Response:

  • Jewish community leaders had warned the Australian government for years about rising anti-Semitism:
    • “For two years, anyone listening? We have been telling them that something's not right. And the evidence was in front of our eyes. When synagogues are being firebombed, that's not normal.” (06:30)
  • A sense of security has been lost:
    • “Over the past two years, that sense of safety has shattered. And now, tragically, we have people that are waking up as orphans, wives without husbands, and families really hurt and destroyed.” (06:30)

• Acts of Heroism:

  • The role of bystanders:
    • “That is the epitome of being an Aussie, of standing up and trying to do what you can to assist, to be there for somebody.” (08:30)
  • A victim sacrificed himself to save others:
    • “He stood in front of the gunman... he saved and allowed other people to get away while taking the attention of the gunman onto himself and sadly, tragically, paid for it with his life.” (08:30)

• On Moving Forward:

  • “Now is the time where Australians say, enough is enough. We need to put an end to this horrific anti-Semitism. And it's going to happen. Believe you me, it's going to happen.” (08:30)

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Segment 2: Film and Society – "No Other Choice" with Park Chan-wook

[13:10–19:06]
Guest: Park Chan-wook, Director
Topic: His acclaimed film on unemployment and pride

• Film Overview:

  • “No Other Choice” centers on Mansu, an unemployed man whose downward spiral leads to murder.
  • The film was inspired by a novel Park read 20 years ago.

• On Mansu’s Morality and System Critique:

  • Park explains, “He had other options... But the realistic solution, perhaps it's a foolish solution that he came up with, was to murder his colleagues, which is also a brilliant method, in my opinion... The more [Mansu] realizes [his colleagues] are similar to him... the more difficult his plan becomes to execute. And that is the central plot and theme of the story.” (13:33)

• Notable Scene & Irony:

  • Mansu must re-enter alcoholism to carry out his plan:
    • “There's that sense of bitter irony and also comedy that comes from this moment.” (16:35)

• Social Commentary – Masculinity and National Trauma:

  • Park on Korean context:
    • “Korean society does have stronger traces of Confucian order and values... But after having screened it in multiple countries, audiences actually have very similar reactions.” (17:36)

• Global Korean Culture:

  • “I hope this is not a temporary trend... The reason for the success of Korea, Korean culture today is that Koreans have experienced many difficulties and pains in modern history... I actually quite feel bitter about that.” (18:32)

• Recognition:

  • The film “No Other Choice” has a 100% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

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Segment 3: Ugandan Democracy – Pop Star Bobby Wine vs. President Museveni

[20:31–24:35]
Report: Larry Madowo, CNN Kampala
Topic: Uganda's opposition movement and election violence

• Profile:

  • Bobby Wine (pop star turned politician) opposes President Yoweri Museveni, in power for 40 years.

• Atmosphere of Fear and Violence:

  • Opposition supporters are met with brutal police and military crackdowns:
    • “At the stop in northern Uganda, supporters formed a protective shield... as military officers whip them.”
    • “Some people have been shot dead at my rally. And I know the regime has me as the main target.” (22:00)

• On the State of the Election:

  • Bobby Wine: “Every time I go out to campaign, I know that somebody is going to be beaten, somebody's going to be killed... This is not an election to begin with. This is war.” (23:48)

• International Condemnation:

  • UN cites "arbitrary arrests, detentions, and the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force against the opposition."

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Segment 4: Royal Reckoning – David Dimbleby on the British Monarchy

[26:28–33:34]
Guest: David Dimbleby, Veteran British Journalist
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Topic: BBC docuseries “What is the Monarchy For?”

• Why Now?

  • “In Scotland and Wales, there's now a narrow majority against monarchy and a rising number of young people... So it seemed to me a good moment to say, is it working? Is it how it should be?” (26:47)

• On Royal Obfuscation:

  • “Getting people to speak about the monarchy was like blood out of a stone... They speak in a kind of cryptic way. Nobody comes out and says, well, this is this, this is that.” (27:34)

• On Royal Power and Boundaries:

  • Discussion about the monarch’s true influence, referencing “spider letters” Prince Charles sent ministers:
    • “I think he's... There's an element in him of sort of self righteousness that he sort of has thought things through that nobody else has thought through.” (30:54)
    • “The question is whether as head of state, it's his job, unelected, to push those views.” (31:37)

• The BBC’s Own Struggles:

  • On recent scandals and institutional change:
    • “The one problem... is that people are abandoning television in favor of all the other ways of getting information. But they're still compelled to pay... to watch television. And that's the stumbling block... If they can get that sorted, then the BBC will be okay. It's too important to Britain, maybe like the monarchy.” (32:19)

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Segment 5: Refugee Resilience – A Polish Family’s Story of Freedom

[35:14–37:13]
Archive Field Report: Christiane Amanpour
Story: Eva and Andrej Kovalinska, exiled from Poland post-Solidarity crackdown, start anew in America.

• “We don't have hope. And because we don't have hope, we are here.” (35:14)
• Eva, once a Polish TV anchor, was jailed for refusing to follow party lines.
• On forging a new life: “We must be free. This is chance for our life. One chance for our life.” (36:59)

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Segment 6: Jane Austen at 250

[37:13–End]

• Celebrations of Jane Austen’s legacy across the world at her 250th birthday.
• “Time will explain. Well, 250 years of time have made one thing abundantly clear, that Jane Austen's genius is one for the ages.” (38:00)

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Notable Quotes

• Rabbi Gabi Kaltman:

  • “We must summon the strength... of the Maccabees... Each time we've persevered, we've gotten up... continued on with love, with hope.” (04:31)
  • “We need to put an end to this horrific anti Semitism. And it's going to happen. Believe you me, it's going to happen.” (08:30)

• Park Chan-wook:

  • “The more that happens, the more difficult [Mansu’s] plan becomes to execute. And that is the central plot and theme of the story.” (13:33)
  • “I hope this is not a temporary trend that's just in fashion. The great influence that Korean culture has today is truly the gain that we've gotten through the pain that we've experienced in our history.” (18:32)

• Bobby Wine:

  • “Some people have been shot dead at my rally. And I know the regime has me as the main target...” (22:00)
  • “This is not an election to begin with. This is war.” (23:48)

• David Dimbleby:

  • “Getting people to speak about the monarchy was like blood out of a stone.” (27:34)
  • “It's too important to Britain, maybe like the monarchy.” (32:19)

• Polish Refugee Eva Kovalinska:

  • “We must be free. This is chance for our life. One chance for our life.” (36:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:01] – Interview with Rabbi Gabi Kaltman
• [13:10] – Park Chan-wook on “No Other Choice”
• [20:31] – Bobby Wine and Uganda’s election violence
• [26:28] – David Dimbleby on the British monarchy
• [35:14] – Polish refugee family story
• [37:13] – Jane Austen 250th celebration

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Overall Tone:
Respectful and searching, mixing solemnity with optimism and humor as guests and reporters explore how individuals and societies cope with adversity—and how, despite darkness, people continue to kindle “a little more light.”

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Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week.

[B]

Enough is enough. We need to put an end to this horrific anti Semitism, a Hanukkah in.

[A]

The shadow of anti Semitic violence. We navigate the darkness and find some light. With Australian rabbi and Gabby Kaltman who spoke to me after the attack on Bondi beach killing 15 people, then. Tackling unemployment with horror and humor. I'm joined by legendary South Korean director Park Chan Wook on his latest masterpiece, no Other Choice. And as violence surges in Uganda, on the road with opposition leader Bobby Wine, the singer turned politician who wants to be president.

[C]

Also ahead, getting people to speak about the monarchy is like blood out of.

[A]

A stone, the uncomfortable truths behind Britain's glittering royal family. Christiane asks veteran journalist David Dimbleby, what's the monarchy for? Plus, from Christiane's archive, some Christmas spirit with a family who found hope in America after fleeing repression in Poland. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Godriga in New York sitting in for Christian Amanpour. Across the world, Jewish people are marking the last days of Hanukkah, a celebration of light and resistance this year marred by a horrifying anti Semitic attack which left 15 people dead. An event marking the first night of the holiday on Sydney's idyllic Bondi beach turning tragic after a father and son duo opened. The father died in the attack while the son has been charged with 15 counts of murder. For the survivors and Australia's small Jewish community, it means they've spent this holiday at funerals and memorials for those killed. The Victims include a 10 year old girl, a Sydney rabbi and a survivor of the Holocaust. For years, Australia's Jewish leaders have warned the government about rising anti Semitism as the Hanukkah holiday continued. I spoke with Rabbi Gabi Kaltman from Melbourne. Rabbi Gabi, thank you so much for taking the time. I am so sorry that these are the circumstances under which we are speaking. I know the community, especially the Jewish community in Australia is heartbroken. It is a very small community, about 0.5% of the population, some 100,000 people. It's a very tight knit community as well. And you were in Melbourne, obviously this horrific attack happened in Sydney. But I do know that, you know, many of the victims talk to us about how the community is doing right now.

[B]

Well, the community here in Australia, the Jewish community at least, is heartbroken. We're shattered. We're in the middle of just an unimaginable nightmare situation. None of us could believe that something like this could happen on the sun kissed shores of Australia in such idyllic, beautiful, iconic place, Bondi Beach. I knew a number of the victims. One of them is my good friend's father in law. Another one was a mentoring student when I was in high school. He was one of the elder students there mentoring younger ones. Another one was a rabbi who I just spoke to a couple weeks ago. There is so much overlap and interconnection between the two communities. It's just something that's unimaginable, unfathomable.

[A]

This also happened on the first night of Hanukkah. And you've said we cannot cower. We must increase light for people watching who may struggle to understand how public worship is possible in such a trauma. What does that choice mean spiritually for you and what are you telling your congregants?

[B]

I'm telling my congregation, my community, that we must summon the strength and the character of the heroes of the story of Hanukkah, the Maccabees, and be like Judah Maccabee and find solace in our history that we're celebrating right now. And like we've done for the past 2,000 years, it ultimately is not easy. But tonight, as I lit the Menorah with my family, that's exactly what we did. And we took a moment together with my children to remember those that have just passed, to pray for those that are injured, but ultimately to push away that darkness. You know us Jews, tragically, we've been here before. This is in essence the story of being a Jew. And each time we've persevered, we've gotten up, we've shaken ourselves off and we've continued on with love, with hope, holding steadfast to our Torah, our traditions, our faith and our beliefs. And that's what we will continue to do. That's the story ultimately of the Jewish people.

[A]

And yet it's understandable why Jews may be nervous, fearful about continuing to gather publicly and continue to celebrate and observe their faith. And Alex Rivchin, who is the co CEO of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, said this to my colleague over the weekend following this shooting attack. He said the government has never understood exactly what we're dealing with here. They've never understood the menace of anti Semitism. What, if anything, can be done to rectify those concerns among the elected officials in Australia to make Jews feel safer.

[B]

I think leaders need to take heed and listen to what Jewish community leaders and members are saying. For two years, anyone listening? We have been telling them that something's not right. And the evidence was in front of our eyes. When synagogues are being firebombed, that's not normal. So many of us have heritage of people coming to the shores of Australia in search of a better life, a life of decency, A life where we can practice our tradition, our faith freely without fear of persecution, without fear of being gunned down at a Hanukkah event on one of the world's most famous beaches. Coming here to contribute to a society and to ultimately live harmoniously with our neighbors. And over the past two years, that sense of safety has shattered. And now, tragically, we have people that are waking up as orphans, wives without husbands, and families really hurt and destroyed sadly because of what's happened.

[A]

I'm just wondering if we can end on perhaps a note of hope and optimism when there's so much darkness and despair. We know that there was heroism as well over the weekend. And a bystander, Ahmed, Ahmed, who happened to watch all of this unfold and took a moment to risk his own life to stop and attack one of these two shooters. And what went through your mind when.

[C]

You saw that Australian that is the.

[B]

Epitome of being an Aussie, of standing up and trying to do what you can to assist, to be there for somebody. And in this case, this individual, this heroic individual, he put his life on the line and thank God he survived. And he, I'm sure, assisted in saving countless lives and so did my good friend's father in law. He stood in front of the gunman and he shot him multiple times and missed. Eventually, tragically, he was gunned down. But for those few moments, he saved and allowed other people to get away while taking the attention of the gunman onto himself and sadly, tragically, paid for it with his life. But ultimately, now is the time where Australian say, enough is enough. We need to put an end to this horrific anti Semitism. And it's going to happen. Believe you me, it's going to happen. We feel it now. But sadly and tragically, we had to go through this to be in this situation of people coming together and saying, wow, this is not the Australian way of life. This is not how we act here.

[A]

Rabbi Gabi, thank you.

[B]

Thank you. God bless.

[A]

Coming up later on the show, the veteran British reporter who's calling out his country's royal family. Christian's conversation with David Dimbleby.

[C]

These are the three subjects I'd like to do. Their power, their wealth and their image.

[A]

And straight ahead, legendary South Korean director Park Chan Wook on his new film no Other Choice. A movie tackling unemployment and charging into this awards season. The holidays are here and I'm spending them with CNN podcast. They keep me informed while also keeping my spirits bright. Hey there. It's a good day to look at the bright side, isn't it? They've been feeding community Christmas trees to their herd of about 35 hungry goats and some alpacas and sheep since 2016. And while I'm stuck in holiday traffic driving to the in laws, I have plenty of time to catch up on the year.

[D]

I'm Audie Cornish and this is the Assignment.

[A]

And I really wanted to do an episode looking back at the big pop culture moments, but honestly, those are getting weirder and like harder to pin down. And later, while I'm relaxing by the fire enjoying a well deserved cup of cocoa, I can also enjoy some good conversation. So whether you are wrapping presents, shopping for holiday gifts, let CNN podcast be your companion this season. Follow the assignment and CNN 5. Thanks wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the program. This week, some troubling news for the US Economy. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reporting that unemployment has risen to four point. That is a four year high. For many, unemployment is a struggle through shame, desperation and sometimes even the absurd. It's a journey tracked in the acclaimed new film no Other Choice, which tells the tale of an unemployed man forced to make impossible decisions because he has, well, no Other Choice. It's racked up Golden Globe nominations for legendary South Korean director Park Chan Wook, and I asked park to help me navigate through the film's many twists and turns. Director park, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on this film no Other Choice. It's getting rave reviews and it's interesting because it sounds like this movie was two decades in the making for you. You first read the axe some 20 years ago. The story centers around a man, Monsoon, who seemingly has it all. He's been working at a paper plant for some 25 years, has received high praise for his, has received awards as well. He's married, lives an affluent life with two children, and all of a sudden things spiral downward once he loses his job. Talk about the decision to turn him into a murderer and you say he goes after the wrong people. Who he should actually be going after is the system itself.

[E]

Manzi, our protagonist, is a very typical man and others around him and himself also considers him a very good man and he went through many difficulties in his life to achieve the humble success and the happiness that he currently has, which he lost with his job and the decision that this simple man could make in this moment. Of course, he had other options, like he could file a lawsuit against the company or start a labor movement, or even become a revolutionary. But the realistic solution, perhaps it's a foolish solution that he came up with, was to murder his colleagues, which is also a brilliant method, in my opinion. And this was a method that he found the most realistic, which he could find the immediate effect for upon executing it. And I think that's a clever premise that the original novel had for the character. Manzi is an inexperienced murderer, so he needs to visit his potential competition because he needs to observe them very closely in order to execute. Execute his plan. And in that process, he realizes that they are all very similar to him. He senses a bigger sense of familiarity and perhaps they even seem very friendly to him as well. And the more that that happens, the more difficult his plan becomes to execute. And that is the central plot and theme of the story.

[A]

I want to show a clip for our viewers from the film where Mansou is actually going to visit one of his potential would be victims. And this is a line manage who had humiliated him earlier in the film when he had applied for a job. It's also a scene where man sue has to break his sobriety in order to follow through on his plan for murder. Let's play the clip.

[D]

She could do Government. Katana.

[A]

What do you see when you watch that moment in the film?

[E]

I see Mansu, who is a man who has been preparing for murder, become friends with his victim. But in addition, it's almost like he's looking at himself in the mirror because Mansu himself had alcohol problems in the past and with that also violence tendencies as as well. And he's reminded of the memories of his past. But in order to succeed in his murder plan, he has to drink the drink that is offered to him despite his nine years of sobriety. So he has to not only drink alcohol, but also take this bombshot that's in front of him. So there's that sense of bitter irony and also comedy that comes from this moment.

[A]

For a long time, I know this was envisioned as actually an English language American film. There was even. There were Western studios that were set up to produce it. What changed for you and this film specifically and as it relates to masculinity, humiliation from a Korean male perspective specifically?

[E]

Yeah, I don't think anything has fundamentally changed making this into a Korean film from an American film. I did introduce Mansi's new hobby of bonsai while changing this into a Korean movie which I was able to cinematically utilize further beyond just his hobby. But I don't think the essence of the film has changed. And regarding the masculinity, the subject of masculinity, the Korean society does have stronger traces of Confucian order and values. So I did assume that Korean audiences perhaps might come in with stronger ideas of what kind of a husband, what kind of a behavior a husband should have or a man should have. But after having screened it in multiple countries around the world, I realized that audiences actually have very similar reactions and ideas in regards to that subject matter.

[A]

How do you feel about this moment right now where Korean culture really has been elevated?

[E]

First of all, I hope this is not a temporary trend that's just in fashion. But I think the reason for the success of Korea, Korean culture today is that Koreans have experienced many difficulties and pains in modern history. So inevitably, all of us have also experienced great depth and variety of emotions and great range over time as well. So I believe that great influence that Korean culture has today is truly the price or the gain that we've gotten through the pain that we've experienced in our history. So I actually quite feel bitter about that.

[A]

Well, I have to say I don't think that the West's appreciation for Korean culture is a temporary phenomenon. And I have to also say that the reviews for this film have just been incredible. We wish you so much luck with it. I don't remember the last time I saw 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. So there's an accomplishment in and of itself. Director park, thank you so much. We appreciate the time. Thank you very much. And no other choice is out now. Coming up, there is nothing like it. A singer turned politician vying for change. Can Bobby Wine unseat the Ugandan president? Larry Madoa reports after the break. Welcome back. We turn now to East Africa, where a violent opposition crackdown is sweeping Uganda ahead of the country's general election next month. The UN is condemning the authorities, quote, repressive tactics. CNN traveled to the capital of Kampala to speak to Bobby Wine, the singer turned activist and politician who is once again seeking to remove President Yoweri Museveni after 40 years in power. Correspondent Larry Madoo has this report.

[F]

This is a man seeking to remove President Museveni from power after 40 years. He has incredible support among the young people. As Bobby Wine arrives, so goes the crowd. There is nothing like it. Bobby Wine wants Ugandans to sing a new tune. The musician turned politician is Running for president for a second time. Nearly twice his age, President Yoweri Museveni is also running for a seventh term. When the former general came to power after a Civil War in 1986, Bobby Wine was just four years old. I believe that General Museveni largely views Uganda as his personal property, as his family property, and he views us as slaves. It is our time to change our future. Bobby Wine accuses security forces of using violence to stop him from campaigning. At the stop in northern Uganda, supporters formed a protective shield around the candidate as military officers whip them. One of his closest aides was wounded. Look at what the police and the military are doing to us. For no crime whatsoever. The electoral commission condemned the incident that is now under investigation. He says more than 450 members of his party and supporters have been imprisoned during the campaign. Others tortured or disappeared. Some people have been shot dead at my rally. And I know the regime has me as the main target. Why won't you be allowed to campaign freely? Well, I believe it is fear. It is fear that General Museveni knows that he has no support. Every time I go out to campaign, I know that somebody is going to be beaten, somebody's going to be killed, run over by the police, shot with live bullets and all that. The UN Human rights chief has condemned widespread arbitrary arrests, detentions, and the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force against the opposition. CNN filmed hundreds of police, military and special forces at Bobby Wine's rallies in the capital, Kampala. They blocked him from using some roads, beat up some supporters and teargassed bystanders. Everywhere Bobby Wine goes, there's dozens of police officers, soldiers. It always ends up in a scuffle. And right now, the block his way from coming into a rally venue, and that's tear gas before he's even inside. We're hearing that sound like live shots. Tear gas in every direction. Tear gas in every direction. It's really become a chaotic scene. And this happens at every Bobby White. Police told CNN that they were forced to use tear gas here to disperse people and clear busy intersection. They have repeatedly denied that they're specifically targeting Bobby Wine or his campaign. We all benefit from coming out of this election with the most minimal damage on individuals and property. There are six other candidates running for Uganda's top job. But January's election is largely a rematch between the president and the pop star. In a free and fair election, can you beat President Museveni? If 2021 was a free and fair election, I would be president already. Will this be a free and fair election. This is not an election to begin with. This is war. Uganda's electoral commission has asked law enforcement agencies to exercise restraint and stick to the law while dealing with candidates. Larry Madowo, cnn, Kampala.

[A]

Still to come from pomp and pageantry to family scandal, how the British monarchy is coping with a tumultuous year. Christiana asks legendary journalist David Dimbleby if that popularity is in peril.

[B]

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[F]

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[F]

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[A]

The holiday season is here and CNN Underscored, is your VIP pass to unique gifts at the best prices. From expert recommendations to can't miss deals, we've wrapped it all up for you. Shop last minute gifting [e-mail]. Welcome back. Now, in the United Kingdom, it's been a year like no other for the British monarchy. Revelations of former Prince Andrew's relationship with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein have severely damaged the royal's reputation, forcing King Charles to strip his brother of his royal title. With scandals rocking the halls of Buckingham palace and popularity for the entire institution waning year on year, veteran journalist David Dimbleby is asking the question, what is the monarchy for? In his new BBC docuseries. He spent decades covering the royals for the country's independent broadcaster, another iconic British institution that has found itself under scrutiny this year, forced to defend its editorial practices on multiple occasions and facing the threat of a multibillion dollar lawsuit from the Trump administration over a misleading edit in a Panorama documentary. To discuss all of this, David Dimbleby joined Christiane from the London studio.

[D]

David Dimbleby, welcome to the program.

[C]

Thank you, Christiane.

[D]

All of the Dimbleby family has been very, very important in chronicling Britain, really, over the decades. What was it that made you want to do this particular one? As someone who's actually been covering the royals for all these years now, you say, what's the monarchy for?

[C]

The reason for doing it now was I suddenly realised that the BBC had never actually done it. They never, they do the occasional Andrew interview when he's in disgrace, Diana when she's in trouble, you know, they interviewed her, but they've never looked at the monarchy as an institution. I thought I'd been covering events for the monarchy, which is different. But let's just have a look at how the thing works because, and this is the important Point in Scotland and Wales. Remember, we're four countries in the uk. In Scotland and Wales, there's now a narrow majority against monarchy and a rising number of young people in this country against monarchy. So it seemed to me a good moment to say, is it working? Is it how it should be?

[D]

So when you dug into it, did you find that it was open to scrutiny? Were you able to actually set yourself a mission and find the answers easily?

[C]

I tell you, it's incredibly difficult. I wrote to the BBC when I'm saying I'd like to do the monarchy, and these are the three subjects I'd like to do their power, their wealth and their image. And to my amazement, the BBC agreed and they backed me all the way through about this. But getting people to speak about the monarchy was like blood out of a stone. I mean, we did have two private secretaries in the end who were brilliant, but they speak in a kind of cryptic way. Nobody comes out and says, well, this is this, this is that. If you talk about taxation or money, they're very defensive.

[D]

So they are not elected. They're a constitutional monarchy. But the Prime Minister is elected. But every single week, the Prime Minister, I believe it's on a Tuesday, goes for their weekly audience with the Queen. Plays have been made about this, films have been made about this, and here is what David Cameron has said, because you spoke to him about his meetings with the late Queen. Let's have a listen.

[C]

Well, you never knew what she really. She protected her impartiality and being above politics, you know, religiously. So you'd never really get a. But you must have an indication when you're talking to a person in private, whether they're looking at you in a steely way. All I would say is she was very careful not to express an opinion. No, that's different. But you can tell whether what you're saying is being happily received or unhappily received. Yes.

[A]

Did you?

[C]

I'm not going to answer that. You can always tell by the questions people ask what they think you can think, you think you can, but you don't always mean. It doesn't always mean you're right. This EU referendum, Prime Minister, are you sure it's a good idea? Are you asking me whether I think it was a good idea? Even an actor of your distinction is not capable of that.

[D]

So, I'm sorry, but what about the referendum? Because actually, it's such a consequential thing that has knocked this country for six in some ways, many analysts would say, and the polls are Very different now than they were 10 years ago. It said that. You know, many people want to say that she wasn't for it. What do you think? What did you lean?

[C]

I have no idea, you know.

[D]

You have no idea.

[C]

Okay. No idea what she said. Whatever goes on at those meetings, and I just hope it's not the King telling the Prime Minister or advising the Prime Minister or raising issues, because we're a democracy.

[D]

Okay, so you.

[C]

It's not his job.

[D]

Right. But he does also have an education. Education and Sydney. I know, I know, but I'm just leading into the next little bit. Right, you're just leading into the bit because the King is adamant, you know that. Well, anyway, he spent a lot of time writing. They call them the spider letters.

[C]

2000 letters.

[D]

Yes, 2000. That's a lot. To the government.

[C]

Handwritten and long letters.

[D]

Yeah. Well, then there was a court case trying to release them. Finally they had to release them. You spoke to Dominic Greave, I think, who was Attorney General at one point around this. What do you make of those letters? Do you think they were demanding? Were they just advisory? Were they. Is it a bad thing that the King, from his non political perch, can have a view on certain important things like climate and other such stuff?

[C]

I think he's. He's kind of. I wouldn't say pigheaded. He has a. He's always. There's an element in him of sort of self righteousness that he sort of has thought things through that nobody else has thought through.

[D]

But he was ahead of his time.

[C]

And ahead of the curve on the.

[D]

Climate, on the environment, on homeopathy, which.

[C]

The NHS have ruled out. He still bats on about that. That's a way he fell under the spell of gurus who've since been discredited, like Lawrence van der Post. He's subject. I mean, he's a very passionate person. I don't know him at all. Let me just say that your brother. My brother's a friend of his, yes.

[D]

He wrote the definitive biography, I think.

[C]

Yes. Wrote a biography, made long film. I don't know him. But he has opinions. Okay. Everybody has opinions. The question is whether as head of state, it's his job, unelected, to push those views.

[D]

Did he push them or just share them? I mean, I don't know.

[C]

I think if the Prince of Wales, it comes out in the films, if he's sharing his view, that amounts to pushing.

[D]

And how much of them were taken on board then by the government?

[C]

Difficult to tell.

[D]

You can't tell it's a really fascinating documentary series. But because you have been such a stalwart at the BBC, what is going on? This sort of pile on. Is it under serious threat? Can it revive itself?

[C]

I believe it will put it like that. It's too valuable an institution. Whatever you think of monarchy, the BBC is the other great institution in Britain and worldwide. Is really important that it makes terrible mistakes and idiotic ones, including this one over the Trump. But joining two bits of film and then thinking it'll go away as a problem because nobody's raised it as a problem. And of course things like that don't go away. And then you end up with this kind of terrific furore about it and two people resign. But the senior people at the top of the BBC resigned. I've no idea. I'm not privy to what went on there and why that happened. But we have had trouble at the top. But the one problem with the BBC is that people are abandoning television in favor of all the other ways of getting information. But they're still compelled to pay 179, whatever it is, pounds a year to have a license fee to watch television. And that's the stumbling block. And for me, if they can get that sorted, then the BBC will be okay. It's too important to Britain, maybe like the monarchy.

[D]

All right, well, it's an amazing watch and really good investigation and David Dimbleby, thank you very much.

[C]

Thank you, Christian, always great to see you.

[A]

Coming up, Finding Hope in the Shadow of War, A look back at Christian's report on a family of Polish refugees starting a new life in America.

[D]

We must be free. This is chance for our life. One chance for our life.

[A]

Meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot on Windows, working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block? Share your screen with Copilot Vision to help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help. With Copilot Vision, Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try [e-mail] copilot. Welcome back. Now, as people around the world celebrate Hanukkah and look ahead to the Christmas festival festivities or even just spend quality time together as the year draws to a close, many too are living in the midst or shadow of war. From Ukraine and Gaza to the Congo and Sudan. This week we're digging into Christiane's archives for a Ray of Hope and resilience when she met a family of Polish refugees restarting their lives in America in the aftermath of Poland's brutal communist crackdown against democratic dissent in the 1980s. This family serves as an example of how carrying on with everyday life can often be the simplest act of defiance.

[D]

It's been six years since tanks rolled through the streets of Poland and troops trampled the newborn Solidarity movement. But the aftershocks are still being felt. We don't have hope. And because we don't have hope, we are here. Here is New York, where Eva and Andres Kovalinska now live with their two young daughters, spending their first Christmas in their new homeland.

[E]

Ah, that is handy one.

[D]

Back in Poland, Eva was a TV anchorwoman. Her husband was a cameraman. They say they had a good life, a life that ended when martial law began. Eva went to jail for refusing to toe the party line.

[A]

My wife and I was in Solidarity.

[D]

And we have trouble, some trouble. From this reason, I must, as journalist, speak. All is best, all is good. People are happy. I must speak. I don't speak that. I speak what I think. Once out of prison, they were blacklisted and unable to get jobs. But things may be changing now. After a six year struggle, the family arrived here last month, part of a special refugee program. I won't be happy. Our first steps. In America, these first steps are difficult. Difficult. Leaving family and friends behind, learning a new language, adjusting to new lives and finding jobs. Difficult, but worth it. We must be free. This is chance for our life. One chance for our life.

[A]

Do you understand me?

[D]

We must pay this price. Will they ever go back? Never.

[A]

Never, never.

[D]

Cristiana Manpour, cnn, New York.

[A]

Well, democracy did eventually win out in Poland. And despite many having to flee persecution and leaving their homes behind, families like this one found sanctuary in another country, one that welcomed them with open arms. And when we come back, how the whole world is getting lost in Austin for the Pride and prejudice author's 250th birthday. And finally, it's a truth universally acknowledged that Jane Austen is one of the world's most beloved writers. Well, if it wasn't, it certainly became known this week as 250 years since the birth of the British author. Celebrations across the world commemorated her impact. Famed for her sharp wit, class commentary, and, of course, sweeping romances in novels like Pride and Prejudice, Emma and Sense and Sensibility. Despite only publishing four novels in her lifetime, her work continues to spread joy both in its original form and in the countless adaptations of it. From Clueless to Bridget Jones Diary to the many more in production at this very moment. Austin once poignantly wrote in her work Persuasion that time will explain. Well, 250 years of time have made one thing abundantly clear, that Jane Austen's genius is one for the ages. All right, that is all we have time for this week. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Bianna Golodriga, New York. Thanks so much for watching.

[E]

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[A]

Busy, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com ring in the new year with Anderson Cooper and Andy Cohen.

[D]

Welcome to Times Square.

[A]

We have a great show planned tonight. I thought been fired by now. Eff it up everybody. New Year's Eve live coverage starts at 8 on CNN.

[C]

And watch on the CNN app.