Amanpour – April 17, 2025

Episode: Former Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell
Podcast: Amanpour (CNN Podcast)
Host: Christiane Amanpour

Overview

This episode focuses on the escalating impacts of President Trump’s trade war—examining U.S. tariff policies toward China, the potential for global economic realignment, and the strain on American allies. Christiane Amanpour speaks in-depth with Kurt Campbell, former Deputy Secretary of State and a key architect of U.S.–China policy, about the uncertain strategic direction of American foreign and trade policy, risks of economic decoupling, and fractured alliances. The episode also features a discussion with documentary director Marcel Mittelsiefen about children affected by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and closes with interviews with two American entrepreneurs navigating the economic fallout from tariffs.

Main Themes

• Strategic implications of Trump’s tariffs for U.S.–China relations and global alliances
• Risks and consequences of U.S.–China economic decoupling
• The weakening of American diplomacy and retreat from international leadership
• Human perspectives from regions affected by conflict and trade policy changes
• Real-world stories of small businesses grappling with tariff-driven disruptions

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S.–China Trade War: Strategy and Global Implications

[04:18–08:47]

• Lack of a Grand U.S. Strategy: Campbell argues that the Trump administration is improvising rather than executing a coherent plan.
  • “They’re sort of playing it as it goes. ... I’m not sure they had originally decided that part of the negotiating plan with allies and partners would be to pressure them about their trade or their economic relations with China.” (Kurt Campbell, [04:18])
  • Negotiations are newly targeting partners (Japan, South Korea, Europe, Australia), who now have as many doubts about Washington as Beijing—threatening U.S. strategic interests.
• Pressure to Align: Trump’s team uses tariffs to push allies into restricting trade with China, but many partners are confused and blindsided:
  • “Most of the countries … find themselves sort of waiting to hear at the table what the United States is proposing.” (Kurt Campbell, [08:47])

2. Decoupling and Economic Risks

[09:16–12:48]

• Chinese Perspective: China positions itself as a stabilizing force and is exploring global markets to counter U.S. actions.
• Soundbite: "Eventually...trade between China and the United States both ways will grind to a halt and...will have decoupling. But...that will not make America stronger or greater." (Chinese analyst Victor Gao, [09:34])
• Campbell’s Caution:
  • Full decoupling is unlikely or desirable; both nations are deeply economically intertwined.
  • Even with discomfort about mutual dependence, neither side wants a full-blown crisis, but neither knows how to step back or restart dialogue.
  • “There are no two countries that are...more interdependent than the United States and China across every possible vector.” (Kurt Campbell, [10:26])
  • The challenge is finding channels for dialogue to prevent economic calamity.

3. Leadership & Global Alliances

[12:48–16:25]

• Declining U.S. Influence: Concerns from allies about the U.S. retreating from the world stage, ceding ground to China.
  • “Everything that the United States has ever done of significance on the global stage, we’ve done with Europe... The United States cannot afford...to go it alone.” (Kurt Campbell, [13:57])
• Alliances Under Strain: Trump’s approach makes cooperation more difficult. Many traditional Republicans still see alliances as vital, but the administration’s language and actions have eroded trust.
• Memorable Quote: “I am struck at how many actors internationally and domestically the Trump administration is reaching out against as opposed to trying to bring on board.” (Kurt Campbell, [16:25])

4. U.S. Diplomacy Retreat and Internal Political Climate

[16:25–23:53]

• Shrinking Diplomatic Footprint: Reports of closing embassies and cutting diplomatic staff alarm Campbell, who highlights the State Department’s relative lack of resources.
  • "[Cuts] would pose just a devastating hit to an institution that always struggles… financially." (Kurt Campbell, [18:16])
• Funding Diplomacy vs. Military (“Mattis Doctrine”):
  • "If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately." (James Mattis, [17:18])
• Atmosphere of Fear in Politics: Senator Lisa Murkowski describes widespread anxiety and fear of retaliation among Republican lawmakers:
  • “We are all afraid… I have not been here before… I’m very anxious myself about using my voice because retaliation is real.” (Sen. Lisa Murkowski, [20:41])
  • Campbell: “I cannot believe the American system is facing a situation that a… senator like Senator Murkowski feels fear to speak out. That’s not something that we can be comfortable with.” ([21:52])

Segment: "State of Rage" Documentary – Human Impacts of Conflict

[25:05–39:04]

• Children Trapped in Cycles of Violence: Filmmaker Marcel Mittelsiefen discusses his documentary “State of Rage,” which chronicles the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children shaped by endless conflict.
  • Focus on microcosms: “If this country, these two people want to have something called a future, they need to find a way of coexistence.” (Marcel Mittelsiefen, [27:26])
  • Both Palestinian and Israeli children express rage, fear, and trauma.
  • Notable Moment: Soundbites contrast the anger of an Israeli settler girl and a Palestinian child standing amid rubble, underscoring mirrored emotions on both sides ([31:40]).
• Lack of Hope: Mittelsiefen struggles to find optimism: “It’s a dark film… I try to use the word rage, hoping that there is still a way to stop all this… But… it needs to stop now because otherwise the… spiral of violence [is] just going to [continue].” ([32:37])
• Mechanisms of Hate: The documentary avoids comparing victimhood and instead examines the mechanisms of radicalization, focusing on girls to challenge stereotypes.
  • “None of those two set of children chose where to be born. And yet they are shaped by the context where they live in.” ([32:37])

Segment: U.S. Tariffs and Small Business Chaos

[39:59–54:48]
Interviewer: Michelle Martin. Guests: Debbie Way Mullen (Copper Cow Coffee), Sarah Lafleur (MM Lafleur)

• Direct Impact:
  • Debbie Way Mullen: Shocked by tariffs on Vietnamese coffee, threatens business viability, especially since U.S. doesn’t grow coffee at required scale.
    • “We were really particularly surprised, not only because it’s coffee… but also [because] Vietnam really does admire Trump and has been really willing to concede to whatever demands that he wants… We were really shocked.” ([42:11])
  • Higher prices cannot be easily passed to retailers; organic and sustainable investments could become unviable.
• Sourcing Challenges in Apparel:
  • Sarah Lafleur: Manufacturing shifted from New York to China due to skill, scale, and declining U.S. garment industry.
    • “Every single thing that you are wearing, someone is sitting behind the sewing machine... You can’t develop that skill overnight.” ([45:18])
  • Reshoring not impossible, but would require major government investment and infrastructure—currently unfeasible.
  • Tariffs have forced her to cancel entire collections: “My May collection has 90% evaporated overnight because we cannot afford to bring in goods from China.” ([48:10])
• Unpredictability is Devastating:
  • “Unpredictability is the enemy of business growth. I think what we are asking for is really communication with a lot of advance notice... Right now, that is what feels is lacking.” (Sarah Lafleur, [53:50])
• Systemic Unfairness:
  • Exemptions seem to benefit industries able to lobby the White House (electronics)—leaving small businesses feeling voiceless.
  • “Small businesses make up 45% of the country’s GDP. ... We are not capable of actually making… our voices heard.” (Sarah Lafleur, [51:08])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There are no two countries that are…more interdependent than the United States and China across every possible vector.”
  —Kurt Campbell, [10:26]

• "If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately."
  —James Mattis, [17:18]

• "We are all afraid… I have not been here before… I'm very anxious myself about using my voice because retaliation is real."
  —Sen. Lisa Murkowski, [20:41]

• "I am struck at how many actors internationally and domestically the Trump administration is reaching out against as opposed to trying to bring on board."
  —Kurt Campbell, [16:25]

• “My May collection has 90% evaporated overnight because we cannot afford to bring in goods from China.”
  —Sarah Lafleur, [48:10]

• “I try to use the word rage, hoping that there is still a way to stop all this… it needs to stop now because otherwise the scale of this violence... just going to [continue].”
  —Marcel Mittelsiefen, [32:37]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro/context on tariffs/upheaval: [01:17–04:18]
• Campbell on U.S. strategy with China/allies: [04:18–08:47]
• U.S.–China decoupling: risk and reality: [09:16–12:48]
• Global alliances and American leadership: [12:48–16:25]
• Retreat in diplomacy and U.S. politics: [16:25–23:53]
• "State of Rage" documentary & child perspectives: [25:05–39:04]
• Entrepreneurs affected by tariffs: [39:59–54:48]

Tone

The episode combines serious, often urgent analysis about international strategy, diplomacy, and the dire state of U.S. leadership and alliances, alongside deeply personal narratives from business owners and those affected by conflict. Amanpour and guests use clear, sometimes blunt language, directly critiquing policy decisions, expressing alarm at the retreat from diplomacy, and highlighting emotional realities on the ground.

Summary

This episode delivers an unvarnished look at the far-reaching shocks of U.S. trade tariffs with China, the growing confusion and risk to global alliances, and the weakening of U.S. leadership and diplomacy. Kurt Campbell, drawing on years in high-level diplomacy, voices alarm at lacking strategy, declining alliances, and the dangers of isolationism. The real-world impact of these policies—evident in both war zones and American small business—punctuates the discussion, with a powerful reminder of the human cost and the complex, interdependent global landscape facing the United States.