Former French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin

Summary

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Amanpour – Former French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin

Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN)
Episode Date: June 11, 2026
Main Guests: Dominique de Villepin
Key Topics: US-Iran tensions, European geopolitics, the Ukraine conflict, Europe's defense future

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Christiane Amanpour sits down with former French Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin to dissect the mounting global tensions, focusing on the escalating US-Iran confrontation and the ongoing war in Ukraine. With a G7 summit days away and the US shifting its posture on global conflicts, de Villepin offers a seasoned diplomatic perspective on Europe's evolving role in international security, the pitfalls of force-based foreign policy, and the heavy responsibilities now shouldered by European leaders in both the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. US-Iran Escalations and the Role of the G7

• Backdrop: President Trump has threatened “very hard” strikes on Iran and floated the idea of taking control of Kharg Island, key to Iran’s oil exports [02:29].

• De Villepin’s Assessment:

  • Describes recent US and Israeli interventions in the Gulf as a “geopolitical Chernobyl,” resulting in “a meltdown of the core reactor that is US leadership.”
  • Warns that the situation is spinning out of control, with “war feeds war. Another intervention will feed more intervention.”
  • Critiques Trump’s belief that peace can be imposed by “force and strength,” calling it “a very strong illusion.”
  • Quote: “We are seeing the chain reaction of this big event... and we are facing a situation that nobody anymore is controlling.” (de Villepin, 04:01)

• Europe’s Approach:

  • De Villepin urges Europe to push for an “immediate and verifiable ceasefire in all active fronts” — Gaza, Lebanon, and Iran.
  • Stresses the importance of “free navigation in the Strait of Hormuz” and support for Lebanon’s sovereignty, calling it essential for Gulf peace.
  • Highlights the need for a “global regional diplomatic framework," particularly regarding Iran’s nuclear issue and its proxies.
  • Critique of Trump: “Donald Trump today doesn’t have the ability to enter in such negotiations. He doesn’t have the knowledge, not have the patience to understand how to go forward.” (de Villepin, 07:15)

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2. Europe’s Responsibility in the Ukraine War

• Changing Dynamics:
  • With the US shifting focus, “Europe has been able to take the lead concerning the situation in Ukraine.” (08:50)
  • Emphasizes the “imbalance” in support: “More than 200 billion euros has been spent since the start of the war [by Europe]. The US have been only supporting for a little more than 100 billion euros.”
• Current Situation:
  • Suggests Ukraine’s current position is “a little bit better than the one of Russia.”
  • Notes that “Kiev has shown its ability to strike all over Russia,” referencing recent actions in and near St. Petersburg.
• Negotiation Prospects:
  • Believes Putin might be convinced to negotiate, “if Donald Trump plays his part... and understands that it is not given that Ukraine should accept the basic conditions of Russia to negotiate.”
  • “We have to put a lot of weight on Russia and Vladimir Putin.” (de Villepin, 10:20)

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3. Europe’s Defense and Strategic Autonomy

• Resignation of UK Defense Minister
  • Amanpour references the resignation over concerns about the UK's readiness in the face of US pullback [10:35].
• De Villepin’s View:
  • Notes that “all the Europeans have increased considerably their budget on defence” over the past year.
  • Acknowledges it’s “important and everybody should appreciate this movement” but urges further action.
  • Cautions: “That doesn’t mean as allies we should not work with the US and do our best.” (11:32)
  • Memorable Moment: Brief, optimistic assessment of strengthened European defense collaboration, tempered with realism about remaining challenges.

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is a geopolitical Chernobyl... a meltdown of the core reactor that is US Leadership.”
  — Dominique de Villepin [04:01]

• “War feeds the war. Another intervention will feed more intervention.”
  — Dominique de Villepin [04:15]

• “Peace cannot go through force and strength — this is a very strong illusion that is having Donald Trump.”
  — Dominique de Villepin [04:54]

• On Iran: “The consequence [of US/Israeli strikes] has been even a more tightened regime. It has strengthened... the Revolutionary Guards.”
  — Dominique de Villepin [05:57]

• On Europe’s Responsibility:

  • “We have to face the globality of the consequences. That means to find a global regional diplomatic framework.”
    — Dominique de Villepin [06:41]

• On Ukraine:

  • “The situation of Ukraine is a little bit better than the one of Russia. Russia is facing many difficulties in society.”
    — Dominique de Villepin [09:03]

• On European Defense:

  • “Everybody should appreciate this movement. Of course, we need to do more.”
    — Dominique de Villepin [11:13]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:21] – Amanpour introduces de Villepin, sets up the context of G7 summit and Iran crisis.
• [03:55] – De Villepin characterizes US leadership as a “geopolitical Chernobyl” and criticizes interventionism.
• [05:37] – Recommendations for European action: ceasefires, sea navigation, diplomacy.
• [08:47] – Shift to Ukraine: Europe’s leadership and Ukraine’s improved position.
• [10:35] – Resignation of UK defense minister and discussion of Europe’s defense future.
• [11:06] – De Villepin on increased defense budgets and need for more autonomy.

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Tone and Language

• The dialogue is urgent, candid, and thoughtful; de Villepin critiques US interventionism with grave metaphors (“Chernobyl”), advocates diplomatic realism, and stresses European responsibility.
• Amanpour’s questioning is direct and persistent, pressing de Villepin for concrete solutions and reflections on Europe’s readiness.

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Summary Takeaways

• De Villepin sees the current US foreign policy under Trump as dangerously destabilizing, creating uncontrollable chain reactions in global affairs.
• He believes Europe must fill the resulting leadership vacuum by pushing for ceasefires, diplomacy, and defense responsibility, especially regarding Iran and Ukraine.
• While praising recent European defense enhancements, de Villepin underscores the need for ongoing collaboration with the US and greater regional strategy.
• The G7 summit represents a critical moment for Europe to assert a stabilizing role as US engagement fluctuates.

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For Listeners

This episode is essential for understanding how veteran European leaders like Dominique de Villepin view the shifting sands of global power, Europe’s newfound burdens, and the importance of diplomacy over force in resolving 21st-century crises.

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Transcript

[Byron Allen]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Whenever they attack, we respond more severely and more heavily.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The US and Iran trade a new round of strikes with G7 leaders gathering in France next week. I speak to the former French foreign and prime minister Dominique de Villepin and about Iran, Ukraine and the global consequences of both conflicts.

[Chris Evert]

Then we traveled together, we practiced together, we ate dinner together, we did press conferences together. We did everything together.

[Christiane Amanpour]

One of the greatest rivalries in sports, Chris Evatt and Martina Navratilova on competition, friendship and facing cancer together.

[Byron Allen]

Also ahead, none of it's going to go away. LINEAR will always be here. Linear TV will be here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Walter Isaacson speaks to media mogul Byron Allen about replacing Stephen Colbert and the future of late night television. Hello, everyone, and welcome. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In Paris, President Trump has threatened to hit Iran, quote, very hard tonight and says again that the United States could take control of Khag island, the hub that handles most of Iran's oil exports. The threat comes just days before G7 leaders will meet here in France with how to end the war on Iran expected to dominate the summit. President Trump will join the world's major economies alongside invited leaders from the Middle east as energy prices rise and rattle global markets. But even as leaders gather, the major European war sports sparked by Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine has taken a backseat. The Trump administration's push for a quick peace deal stalled months ago. Now for more on the consequences of these global crises, I'm joined by Dominique de Villepin. He is France's former foreign minister, former prime minister and a potential contender in next year's presidential election. Foreign minister, former Foreign Minister de Villepin, welcome back to our program.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We have a big delay, so I hope that doesn't interfere with our conversation. But let me first ask you because we're right in the middle of what seems to be yet another crucial turning point. Trump and Iran facing off against each other. The French hosting all the world's major economies, G7 countries with. What do you think Europe and its G7 allies will say to Trump? What's the best that you think can emerge from this meeting regarding the crises that are faced right now?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Well, what we can say right now is that we are seeing the consequences of the US And Israeli intervention in the Gulf. And if I can take this image, I would put it this way. It is a geopolitical Chernobyl. We are seeing the chain reaction of this big event. And what we see is a meltdown of the core reactor that is the US Leadership. And we are facing a situation that nobody anymore is controlling. War feeds the war. Another intervention will feed more intervention. And we all know the lesson from history and many centuries ago that peace cannot go through force and strength. This is a very strong illusion that is having Donald Trump.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So you're saying basically that the US Foreign policy based on strength, as even they have spoken about publicly, especially after the capture of Nicolas Maduro, you're saying that it's not going to achieve the ends that they want to achieve. So with Trump appearing to want to get out of this war and it not happening yet, what do you think Europe can do to help him out of the war? Do you think they should try, having not tried and not not taken part in the actual war?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Well, I think the European have a good understanding of the balance of forces in the region. We all understand that most of the Gulf countries want peace. They have seen the consequences of the US Strikes, as well as the Israeli strikes on Iran. And what has been the consequence? The consequence has been even a more tightened regime. It has strengthened the strongest in the regime, which are the. The revolutionary gods. So we are far away from getting rid of this awful regime, as we have seen during the first weeks of the year. And we have to face this reality. So the first thing I believe for the European is to have an immediate and verifiable ceasefire in all active fronts, which means Gaza, which means Lebanon, and, of course, Iran. The second point I think, which is key, is to have free navigation in the Strait of Hormuz. Third point, support the sovereignty of Lebanon. We won't have peace in the Gulf if Lebanon is not linked with the situation in Iran because of the nature of relationship between Iran and the Hezbollah. So we have to face the globality of the consequences. That means to find a global regional diplomatic framework. And the European have a strong understanding of the situation in the region as well as a very good knowledge of, of the nuclear question, which is, of course, at the center of all the preoccupation we need to address and to enter into an important nuclear negotiation as well as a negotiation on the missiles and all the proxies of the region. Donald Trump today doesn't have the ability to enter in such negotiations. He doesn't have the knowledge, not have the patience to understand how to go forward.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wow. So I interrupted you a little bit, but you said doesn't have the knowledge, doesn't have the patience or I think the diplomatic teams to go ahead and take this forward. But that puts a lot of burden on European leaders who have been really trying to catch up with Donald Trump's policies, whether it's tariffs, whether it's is these wars, whether it's essentially dropping the lion's share of American support for Ukraine, putting it in Europe's hands. Let's talk about the war in Ukraine, which is Europe's war. Now, where do you think that is headed? Clearly, the Ukrainians are making quite important strides. But where do you think that is headed and how do you think, you know, Putin will be convinced to come to the bargaining table?

[Dominique de Villepin]

Yeah, well, what we see today in Ukraine is the fact that Europe has been able to take the lead concerning the situation in Ukraine. Most of the support given to Ukraine goes through Europe. More than 200 billion euros has been spent since the start of the war. And the US have been only supporting for a little more than 100 billion euros. So there is an imbalance. And today most of the cooperation of the US in direction of Ukraine has stopped. So the European have shown some credibility in the ability in their capacity to master the situation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy. At this point in time, the situation of Ukraine is a little bit better than the one of Russia. Russia is facing many difficulties in the Russian society. And Kiev has shown its ability to strike all over Russia. And in the last weeks in St. Petersburg, where the economic forum was taking place. So that means that there is a possibility to convince Vladimir Putin if Donald Trump plays its part and if Donald Trump understand that it is not given that Ukraine should accept the basic conditions of Russia to negotiate, Ukraine today is in a much better position and we have to put a lot of weight on Russia and Vladimir Putin.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And briefly, a last question. The British defense minister resigned today, essentially saying that the government of Prime Minister Starmer is not doing as much as he needs to do to boost Britain's defenses to meet these kinds of challenges and to make up for the US Demands and their pullback. What does that say about Europe, whether it's Britain, France, Germany, their ability to actually take their own defence lead.

[Dominique de Villepin]

Well, in the last year, all the Europeans have increased considerably their budget on defence and they have understood, they have been aware that they need to take care of their own needs concerning security issues. And I think for the last year, what has been done is quite important and everybody should appreciate this movement. Of course, we need to do more and we need to understand that the US Support is in question today and we need to take care of our own defense. But that doesn't mean as allies should not work with the US and do our best.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Former foreign minister, former Prime Minister Dominique Vilpin, thank you so much for joining me and stay with us because we'll be right back after the break.

[Byron Allen]

FOREIGN.

[Chris Evert]

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, CNN Digital senior writer Eric Levinson. He's following several cases that are the first of their kind cases seeking to use AI conversations and content as evidence. How have we seen chatbot conversations playing into court proceedings?

[Martina Navratilova]

We've seen a few big cases recently, and ChatGPT messages and conversations have helped show the mindset of certain people. So there was the case last year, the big Palisades fire in LA that destroyed a lot of LA in the Pacific Palisades. They arrested a suspect who had been

[Byron Allen]

at a mountaintop nearby on New Year's

[Martina Navratilova]

Eve like a week before and had messaged ChatGPT about his interest in fire

[Byron Allen]

and what happens if a cigarette lights a fire. And so that was used as part

[Martina Navratilova]

of the evidence accusing him of arson.

[Chris Evert]

Listen to CNN's terms of service, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Byron Allen]

I'm Audie Cornish. I'm Ari Shapiro. And it's engagement party and we get to talk about what we're obsessed with, what we're engaged with, what we need to process with a friend. I went to see Obsession last night because I had to know what the buzz was about. I was the oldest person in the theater by about 20 years, but it was packed on a Monday at 5:30pm Something crazy is going on here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, not so crazy. I mean, I feel like I've been doing the story about the waves of horror in cinema for the last couple of years.

[Chris Evert]

And I think the reason why I

[Christiane Amanpour]

wanted to talk about it with you is because I was trying to figure out, well, what's different between this moment and something like the mumble corps of the 2010s, right, where you had films

[Chris Evert]

like Puffy Chair, and we were all doing stories that were like, people are Doing movies on their own. It's called Bumblecore, you know, and we would, like, talk about how people were doing this, like, DIY film stuff.

[Byron Allen]

Follow Engagement party wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It was one of sports greatest rivalries. Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova, two of the most outstanding tennis players ever, ever to pick up a racket. Throughout the 70s and the 80s, they lit up the courts, ending their careers on 18 grand slams each. After years of battling it out across a net, life after tennis saw their friendship grow, especially when they both faced a new kind of opponent at the same time. That was cancer. It is all documented in a new Netflix film. Take a look at the trailer.

[Chris Evert]

In the beginning, it was fine for me to be friends with her because I was better than her.

[Martina Navratilova]

That hurt. I knew that I needed to be more of a killer instinct.

[Chris Evert]

It was the lowest of lows in our relationship.

[Martina Navratilova]

Chris was the enemy, and she's the one that had to beat to get to number one.

[Chris Evert]

They do some damage to each other emotionally. If you want to be great at something, you give up things. Sometimes it takes terrible things to happen for you to realize how you really feel about things.

[Martina Navratilova]

The goal is to get free of cancer.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the documentary debuted at the Tribeca festival in New York last night. And I sat down with both Evan and Navratilova during the French Open at Roland Garros right here in Paris. You looking over court, Philippe Chartrier, sight of some of their greatest victories. Here's our conversation. Martina Navratilova, Chris Evatt. Welcome.

[Martina Navratilova]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I don't know why I'm saying welcome, because this is your studio.

[Martina Navratilova]

This is her. This is her studio. Mine is across the pond.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yours is Wimbledon. Yours is here. Okay, so how does it feel being here where you did some of your greatest glory?

[Chris Evert]

It feels great. I mean, no, I mean, you know, when I'm watching these women, I just. I remember myself out on the court. And yes, the conditions are different, the rackets are different. The power, there's more power. There's, you know, shot making and more athleticism. But at the same time, the way you play on clay remains the same.

[Martina Navratilova]

The emotions are the same.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And what are the emotions?

[Martina Navratilova]

Ah, well, you run the gamut. I mean, sometimes it happens in just one match, sometimes in one game. You can go from total euphoria to being so depressed or, you know, emotional. Nowadays, they get a lot of help from the coaches. We had to figure it out by ourselves.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, let's talk about that, because, let's face it, you were the emotional one. You were the fire.

[Martina Navratilova]

You think?

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think. And you were the ice. Right. The cool maiden. Ice Maiden. Whatever you kept inside. I wonder how you felt actually about being labeled this ruthless ice Maiden.

[Chris Evert]

Thank you. Well, at Wimbledon, they first labeled me that when I went over at 17 years old, and they couldn't understand why or how a schoolgirl didn't show emotion and wasn't acting like a girl, you know, And I was very, you know, much just unemotional. And I learned at a young age to keep it in. I learned that. It just worked for me. My dad told me, you know, don't let. Don't allow your opponent to see if you're upset or anything, because they'll use it to their advantage, and they'll say, aha, I've got her. So I kind of took that theory to heart, and I was very, you know, placid and just unemotional out there and very focused, and it worked for me. That was my personality at that time on the court, and.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the opposite worked for you, letting it all out.

[Martina Navratilova]

I still haven't learned to keep it in, so there's that. But I always admired that. I just couldn't relate because I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But it worked for you, being emotional?

[Martina Navratilova]

Well, I managed to control the emotions. So you can show them, as long as they don't control you, you control them. So it's okay to get upset, but not whiny. And I was whiny at the beginning.

[Chris Evert]

Well, Martina would be emotional, whiny or whatever, like right after the point. But then when it was time for the next point, she'd reset very, very well. McEnroe did that well, too.

[Martina Navratilova]

It took me a while, you said.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And it's important because mental health is a huge aspect of everything right now, including tennis. There are many. And including all sports, many female athlet really take their mental health into account and do what they need to do. You were just saying that you guys never had. Had that luxury, never had that opportunity.

[Martina Navratilova]

I didn't really get help until in my late 20s or mid-20s when friends said, oh, you know, you're just beating yourself when you get upset. I'm like, oh, okay. And then that helped. And then Billie Jean helped me a lot on the mental side, but I really didn't deal with the emotions as well or get. Certainly didn't get any help from the outside. I mean, it was unusual. I was traveling with my coach. Chris only tried traveling with her coach later in her career. Chris, she had her dad at home but you know, for six years I didn't even have a coach.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so let's talk about that because part of the documentary that is so interesting, you came away from Czechoslovakia, you defected when you were in the United States at one U.S. open. And okay, we understand that, but I didn't know the loneliness, the fact that you had no infrastructure, no family infrastructure. What was it like to take that decision to leave your parents, to leave everything.

[Martina Navratilova]

You knew it was a one way ticket. And that was the hard part. I never knew if I would ever go back. If anything happened to my family, I couldn't go back or I could go back and I would not get out again. So it was a one way street and my parents couldn't come see me. So it was, I thought it was

[Chris Evert]

remarkable that at that young of an age, you know, 16, 17 years old, she wanted to be number one in the world desperately. She knew she had the talent, all the talent in the world. And she made that decision herself to make that move because she knew she moved to America, she could have the resources that she needed and she could achieve her goal. And she did. You know, and some, and I was gonna say, and you know, how many. 18, you know, majors. And it was like. But to just learn that at a young age, to feel that and at the back of my mind know that you may never see your parents again. I mean, that's like.

[Martina Navratilova]

And my sister.

[Chris Evert]

Really gutsy move.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How did you two become friends? And was it normal to. Not normal. Was it. Did all players friendships on the road? Yeah, yeah.

[Martina Navratilova]

There was no teams.

[Chris Evert]

Well, let's put it this way, when we started out, it was Billie Jean and Rosie and Martina and I and, you know, other players. And we were like the traveling band or traveling circus. You know, we traveled together, we practiced together, we ate dinner together, we did press conferences together. We did everything together. There's no coaches, there are no teams. We had, there was no money to pay for, you know, therapist and a physio and a coach. So we, we did everything together. Martina and I practiced together before the finals of the French Open. And then we had, and then we had, we had a lunch. I remember it was chicken and mashed potatoes. We sat together and had lunch and

[Martina Navratilova]

then we probably went out to dinner too. Probably.

[Chris Evert]

And then we traveled the next day to England. And you know, it was like, there's so much camaraderie.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wimbledon.

[Chris Evert]

Wimbledon, right. But there was so much camaraderie in those days and, and we really did care about each other, but camaraderie only

[Christiane Amanpour]

lasted or only extended to a certain point because, you know, in the doc, it shows that you were fine to be her friend as long as you were beating her. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, Expand.

[Martina Navratilova]

Okay, so.

[Chris Evert]

No, no, no, no, I will. I will.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How did it affect your friendship? Well, when she started to rise and challenge you, Martin.

[Chris Evert]

Well, we were playing doubles together. That was the big thing. We were playing doubles together. We're not only practicing together, we were playing doubles together. And then Martina started beating me, and I went to her. I didn't send her a text. I didn't send her a letter. I went to her and I said, martina, you know, I don't think I can play doubles with you anymore because, you know, in my mind, I felt like she said that we were. We were getting a little too close. She was knowing my game a little bit too much from the practicing and the doubles, and I. My number one goal was to be number one in singles, so I wasn't willing. That didn't mean I wasn't going to be her friend. I just thought that I should break up the doubles.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you thought she broke up your friendship?

[Martina Navratilova]

Well, no, no, not the friendship.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[Martina Navratilova]

Just doubles. And I got that some people can be friends with, you know, really opposition. But she dumped me for doubles. In 76. We won Wimbledon. We won Wimbledon in 76.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah.

[Martina Navratilova]

We won here in 75.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah.

[Martina Navratilova]

And we won 76. And. And I lost to Chris, I think, in the semis that year here, and. But it was close on. On grass. And then we go to US Open, we were supposed to play doubles together, you know, and that's when Chris said, you know, I just need to concentrate on singles.

[Chris Evert]

I need to concentrate on singles. I. You know my game too well, and I was getting too close, and I think that, you know, that my priority was to still have Martina as a friend, but, you know, to stand off a little bit.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so let's throw it back to her.

[Chris Evert]

Is that that bad?

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, it's not bad.

[Chris Evert]

It happens all the time. It's worse.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, fine, fine. But you were then in a relationship, although it wasn't public, with the great American basketball player Nancy Lieberman.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And that was a little bit later.

[Martina Navratilova]

That was 1981.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So when you started to rise, apparently she advised you, stop being friends with Chrissy. You cannot like Chrissy. You have to hate Chrissy on the court.

[Martina Navratilova]

Yeah, she was trying to do that, but it wasn't working. Chris was a carrot for me. That's who I was thinking about when I was training, because I had everybody else covered. But I couldn't beat Chris consistently. Once in a while, yes, but not consistently. And I couldn't get to number one if I don't beat Chris.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were just talking off camera about the training. It sounds brutal. Give us a little.

[Martina Navratilova]

So Nancy and I met in April, and when I lost, you were, by

[Christiane Amanpour]

the way, just to put it no.

[Martina Navratilova]

But then I was. No, I had lost the weight, but I wasn't in great shape. But I was the same weight. But then I lost to Chris that day in Amelia, after I just met Nancy. Then I went to French, lost here in the semis, I think on grass. I lost to Andrew Yeager. And then I lost in the semis at Wimbledon, 81 to Chris. And that's when Nancy said, you know, how much longer you going to play? I'm like, till I'm 30 and then I'll see you. I was 26 almost at that point. So, you know, you could be in so much better shape. You could play so much better. I'm like, what are you talking about? So that's when I got on the basketball court, started running suicide drills. That's the one. So I was training, went on track, and then the biggest key was that to get started. And then Renee and Richards started helping me, coaching me. After the US opened in 81, and

[Christiane Amanpour]

can we just point out, given the sensitivities around everything right now, Rene Richards was transgender.

[Martina Navratilova]

She changed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Or is. She's still alive. Sorry. And it was not a huge, big deal back then.

[Chris Evert]

Right.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And she.

[Martina Navratilova]

It was a big deal that she was allowed to play, but she sued for the right to play. It was a one off. And Renee was in her 40s, and that's the only reason she didn't beat the pants off of us. I had a few tough matches with her, and I played doubles with her. And then. And then she started coaching me in 81. So for me, she was a great person that I only knew as a woman, and that was only one. But these days, the way their laws are is basically, anybody can say, I'm a woman, and then they compete.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you feel that that's unfair.

[Martina Navratilova]

Well, of course it's unfair. I mean, male bodies are males and females. Look, I raised two girls, and I'm raising two boys. Oh, my God. It's like two different species. So, yeah, I mean, the body, the advantages that a male has over a female, can never go away.

[Chris Evert]

Well, the thing Renee Richards came out with a Quote and said she was going to the quarterfinals and semifinals of all these tournaments on the WTA. And that was unforeseen. You know, you never heard about that. She came out and said, she said, yeah, I was in my 40s and I was playing and I was out of shape and I was slow and I was old and if I had been in my 20s, I would have killed everybody. And so, I mean, if you ask her and you know, she doesn't think

[Martina Navratilova]

that she should have been allowed to

[Chris Evert]

play, that shouldn't be allowed to play, or they should be allowed to play.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I don't know whether it's fair or right or is it the right time, but do you have a solution for this? What would be the optimum solution for the current dilemma?

[Chris Evert]

You know, have their own. We have their own category.

[Martina Navratilova]

Own category or play. You have to stay in the male or female sex category. It's the biggest difference between humans and it's the only fair way to go about it. So you can have a female category and an open category. So if you're non binary or you, if you want to compete with the guys, you can, but you cannot, as a man, compete against one. It's not fair. It can never be fair.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to get back to the, to the, to the how you all felt on the courts. There's a picture in the dock. Honestly, it kind of broke my heart. You're hugging a pole after winning a match, a very. One of the big matches that you won.

[Martina Navratilova]

It was the first tournament I won.

[Christiane Amanpour]

There you go and you're hugging a pole. And the narration is, well, I didn't have my family, I didn't have anybody.

[Martina Navratilova]

I was alone. End up unexpectedly won the tournament. And then when I won, I wanted to hug somebody, but there was nobody that I knew there. So I hugged a. Hugged a pole. Light pole. It was right next to the umpire's chair.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah.

[Martina Navratilova]

And that was the photo that was in the paper.

[Chris Evert]

I mean, it's a lonely life. I remember winning Wimbledon and at one time beating Yvonne Gulagon and going back to an empty hotel room and lying down the floor and I couldn't get up. I was so depressed, I couldn't get up. And I realized it was because I didn't have anybody to share it with. And I had put everything, all of my emotions and everything into my tennis that I really didn't have many friends at all. And you know, that was like. That was a moment that opened my eyes and then I changed. Everything changed after that. I went back and worked on friendships. I went back because people, when you're a star, people come up to you all the time and they want something or they want to be your friend, but. And you don't even. You don't have to give back, you know, because you're so busy playing.

[Martina Navratilova]

It's a self centered existence, playing.

[Chris Evert]

You become self absorbed, really. You have to think about yourself. So after that, I realized I don't want to live like this at all. And I went home and called my friends that I had. And I started working, you know, giving and spending time and putting energy into friendships. And instead of everybody coming to me, I was going to them. And then that worked out. It was just a good balance.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to get to the other major connection between you two. Cancer also cropped up and attacked you both and brought you both together. You had throat and breast cancer, you had ovarian cancer. Full disclosure, I've been in this journey as well. And how do, how, how did you deal with it when it, when it, when it hit you?

[Chris Evert]

Well, the first thing I did was I called Billie Jean King and I said, can I have Christiana's phone number? Because I know that she's had it and I need to talk to somebody who's had that cancer. And you have been great to me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I sent you a white fluffy blanket, which somebody gave to me the same. And I found it so comforting. And it's in the film, I think.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah, I think it is.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is the white fluffy blanket.

[Chris Evert]

It's so nice to have somebody who's been through that. But. But I remember Martina calling me right away. We called each other. One of the first people we called were each other. And it just is ironic that we've had this journey in tennis and then all of a sudden we get cancer the same time and then twice. And she was there for me, and I was there for her. And again, it really helps to have somebody to talk to about it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And in the doc, we see quite intense medical scenes. I mean, we see the intravenous, we see you guys going through the MRI and the CT scan and all the other things. We see you, frankly, at your most vulnerable, more than you were ever. Even when you lost on the court. I guess you were comfortable, obviously, otherwise you wouldn't have let it. But why did you want to depict all that as well?

[Martina Navratilova]

I think Chris was much more public about it. I kind of went into a hole when I was going through most of my treatment. I. I closed up. I even said to Julia, my wife, please Go. I need to be alone. Just take care of me. I'm self sufficient. But I was getting a lot of support from everybody. Always had had that phone call or text from Chris. I got lots of blankets from friends. But I made it public only because I was supposed to be working. So it would have come out. And then after. Again, we were all about raising the awareness, the awareness for people to get checked. Don't ignore any kind of signs and deal with it because it saved both of us. Being proactive before the.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I feel that way too. Raise awareness wherever you can because let's face it, actually, women's cancers, just women's medical problems, get short shrift compared to men when they go to the doctor.

[Chris Evert]

My story was a little different because I have my sister Jeannie tattoo on. My sister died from ovarian cancer like two years before I was diagnosed with it. And we both eventually had the BRCA gene. My sister, when she died, did not have the BRCA gene. But later on, the geneticist called me and said, your sister now had a variant that has turned into cancer after she had died. So that variant. Well, she. She didn't have the BRCA gene, but she had a suspect variant, which means that it's not. There's not enough case studies to, to classify it as cancer. But after she died, they had more research and it was classified. And so my gynecologist told me, went right in, let's get the test. I had the BRCA gene. As it turned out, the next day, I had a hysterectomy. To be proactive, to have it, not knowing I had cancer. I had cancer in my ovaries and I had cancer in my fallopian tube. So for me, my sister saved my life for sure. I wasn't feeling any different. Okay. So I thought, people have to know about this BRCA gene. People have to know about genetic testing. You know, you used to go in the doctor's office and have to fill out and you thought it was a pain in the neck. Why do they have to know what my grandmother had and why do they have to know this? Why do they have to know that? Didn't realize it's just genetics and that's so important with cancers.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how did you cope when, you know, you had successful treatment and then you relapsed? I mean, both of you did. How did you cope with that?

[Martina Navratilova]

Well, I had. Well, I had cancer like 15 years ago, but maybe wouldn't have been DCIS. And then this one, when I got checked to see exactly where the tumor was on my throat. I had a CT scan, and then my right breast lit up. So I had two unrelated cancers. So that's when I got tested for the genetic stuff. And I have nothing. I just had three completely different cancers, three unrelated, but got them all early enough. So I was lucky about that.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah. I had. After my first cancer, I had surgery, chemo, and then two years later came back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And are you in a state of good right now?

[Martina Navratilova]

Good.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We're all good.

[Chris Evert]

We have to get. I have to get a CT every three months. You do. It is blood work every month because my white blood cells are. Are low.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But in a way, thank God, because you will always be monitored. And that's really important. It really is. In the film, you do a reveal. All of a sudden you're looking into the mirror, and you take off your wig.

[Chris Evert]

Martina and I discussed this. If we're gonna do a documentary, it's gonna be full disclosure, and it's gonna be authentic, and we have to get into. Into the dirt, you know, and this is the reality. This is what happens. Take it off. Maybe it's a shock to some people, but it's like, this is what happens. And. And I think we both have a great message, if any. You feel anything wrong with your body, anything different, go get your blood work.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the other great message is in an era where if you do get diagnosed early, you can manage it. That's what my oncologists say. It's no longer necessarily a death sentence. Sentence. That's really important. I want to end by the beautiful scene in the documentary where you're both sitting now.

[Martina Navratilova]

Ish.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Watching the 1978 Wimbledon final. It was really, really cool watching you both. And how did you feel knowing that? Did you remember what made Martina win and you lose that one?

[Chris Evert]

You mean when I hit her in the head? When I hit her in the head? I did not mean to hit her in the head.

[Martina Navratilova]

No, you did not.

[Chris Evert]

You know that, right?

[Martina Navratilova]

Yeah, of course. That was the only time I woke up.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I woke up.

[Chris Evert]

I shouldn't have done it. It woke her up. You know, I just think things happen for a reason and that it was inevitable. She was a better Grass Corps player than I was. I also was falling in love with John Lloyd at that time. And, you know, I just. I didn't have that fiery intensity that I normally have. I was pretty relaxed. Not making that as an excuse, but you know how personal relationships can affect matches a little bit. But I was genuinely happy for her. I mean, I really Was she. Was I really. I mean, this was her dream. This is why she defected. She hadn't seen her family. She gave up so much and she was the best grass score player then. So I think that that sums up our friendship and what I've learned from Martina over the last three or four years, especially since we've retired, is just enormous compassion that she has for everything in life. You know, just not, not only for me, but for everybody around her, for the world in general. So she's a good person.

[Martina Navratilova]

It did bring us together. Yeah, but what a way to do it. I would not recommend it to anybody, but, you know, we made the most out of what we had, so.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you in 1978, how did you feel?

[Martina Navratilova]

Well, it was bittersweet, you know, it was a dream of mine and my family. My dad spent thousands of hours with me on the court and he couldn't come. And I didn't even know if they saw it, so. And it was a back and forth match as well, so I was thrilled. But then I was sad. But then my dad called me and they had watched it on tv. They went close to the German border and watched it, but it was. And then the next year my mom

[Christiane Amanpour]

was in to watch it on TV

[Martina Navratilova]

because the Czech news didn't exist. So they. People knew that I.

[Chris Evert]

Non person.

[Martina Navratilova]

I was a non person, non grata. So anyway.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But actually, let's end on that beautiful scene when you actually go back for the Fed cup, right? And you go back together and you are a hero, a national hero. That must have been fantastic. And you go, you went obviously with it.

[Martina Navratilova]

We've been through some. That was probably the happiest and also sad for me because my grandmother was dying and, you know, there was so much emotion in every way. And then I could leave. And I cried when I left and when the plane was taking off, because I could leave but 15 million people couldn't.

[Chris Evert]

Yeah, that's why the women were crying too.

[Martina Navratilova]

But everybody was crying. But it's such a political, you know, up your sort, excuse me, to the communists.

[Chris Evert]

They didn't say, they didn't print her name in the newspapers. It was, you know, Chris Evert and the American team. And they put her on a side court the first match.

[Martina Navratilova]

Yeah, Chris Evert, blah, blah, blah. And then. And the player from America, I mean,

[Chris Evert]

for her to be able to go play and win every match. And the US beat Czechoslovakia in the final, isn't that ironic? Everybody was rooting for Martina, but it

[Martina Navratilova]

was a political statement.

[Chris Evert]

The women were crying and because they, the women were crying because they loved Martina and they loved to see her, but also because of their own lives that they wish that they could be have made that step as well.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's such a good way to close this conversation. Thank you both so much. Chris Evatt, thank you. Martina and I thank you. What amazing experiences and what incredible lives they've had. And the final set will be available to stream on Netflix next week June 26th. And we'll be right back after this short break. 628,000. That is the amount of people who tuned into CBS late night slot the first Monday after Stephen Colbert's show was replaced. While that number might sound big, that is actually a 65% drop from Colbert's average. Still, comic Byron Allen's company is shelling out $15 million a year to nab that coveted slot. And he's joining Walter Isaacson to discuss why he's betting big on the future of media and late night.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thank you. Christian and Byron Allen, welcome to the show.

[Byron Allen]

Well, thank you, Walter. Thank you for having me.

[Walter Isaacson]

Congratulations. You've taken over the time slot on CBS that long was held by Stephen Colbert. How long have you wanted to do that?

[Byron Allen]

I've been chasing that for over 51 years, since I was 14 years old and I met Johnny Carson at the NBC studios in Burbank. So I tell everybody, Walter, I'm a 65 year old overnight sensation.

[Walter Isaacson]

And tell me about those early years in comedy.

[Byron Allen]

Well, you know, my mom, you know, who's not only beautiful, she's brilliant, she got pregnant with me when she was 16 and had me 17 days after her 17th birthday. And I tell everybody I have two high school diplomas. And so, you know, I was born in Detroit, Michigan in April of 61 and Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of 68 and the riots broke out. You know, Detroit got lit up like a Christmas tree. And my mom and I decided to come out to LA and visit friends and family for a couple of weeks in summer of 68. And we ended up staying and we it was Slim Pickens when we got here, sleeping on a lot of floors and a lot of sofas and spare rooms where we could find it. And my mom ended up getting into UCLA and getting her master's degree in cinema TV production. And because she got her master's degree in cinema TV production from ucla, she was able to go all over town and ask for jobs and knocked on a lot of doors, got a lot of no's and she finally went to NBC and said, hey, do you have any jobs? And they said no. And she asked, do you have an intern program where I can work here for free? And they said, no. And then she asked a question that changed our lives forever. She said, will you please start one with me? And they said yes. And because she could not afford child care, she took me to work quite often and after school and during the summer, and I would go from studio to studio to studio, waiting for my mom to get off work. And I'm standing there and I see Johnny Carson do the Tonight Show. And I would go across the hall and I would watch Redd Fox tape his show, Sanford and Son and Freddie Prinze tape Chico on the man and Flip Wilson tape his show and Bob Hope do his specials. And I thought, what a wonderful way to go through life, making television and making people laugh. So I started doing standup comedy when I was 14.

[Walter Isaacson]

And you started getting paid per joke, is that right?

[Byron Allen]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was performing at the Comedy Store. My first time at the Comedy store, I was 14 years. Monday night, tryout night, and they said, get there early. And they said, the doors open at 7 o'. Clock, people line up to try out. So I took the bus. I was 14, I took the bus. I got there at 9 in the morning and I sat there on the curb and I wrote jokes and waited for them to open the door. And I went on stage and this guy. It was basically four people and 200 chairs. So I had to figure out how to make 200 chairs. Laughs. And I went on stage and performed. And this guy said, hey, who wrote those jokes? He came right up to me. I said, I wrote them. He said, you know, those were funny. I said, thanks. That was the idea. He said, let me get your number. I know somebody that may want to work with you. I said, no problem. And a week or two later, I got a call and this guy says to me, can I speak to Byron? I said, this is Byron. He said, this is Jimmy. J.J. walker, Kid Dino, Miked. And Jimmy Walker was the hottest comedian in by far on the planet. You know, he was the star of Good Times on cbs. And he said, my man Wayne Klein says you're funny. And if my man Wayne Klein says you're funny, then you must be funny. I said, yes. Tell Wayne, thank you, I appreciate that. He says, I'm sitting in a writer's meeting. Do you want to come and write some jokes with me and my boys? I said, let me ask my mom. My mom says, yes, she Drops me off at Jimmy's apartment. I walk in and sitting there is Jimmy Walker, the biggest television star in America at that time, Jay Leno, who was sleeping in his car. And Dave was Dave Letterman, who had just driven out from Indianapolis in a red pickup truck. And Jeffrey.

[Walter Isaacson]

Those were the joke writers for him. Right. It was a very political period and you tended to steer clear of political jokes even to this day. Why? Am I right?

[Martina Navratilova]

You know what?

[Byron Allen]

I've never done political humor. You know, it was just. It wasn't my thing. I mean, there's a great place for political humor. There are folks who love it, who appreciate it. My entire career has been about evergreen comedy, comedy that you can listen to today, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, 60 years from now. When I started doing Comics Unleashed with Byron Allen 20 years ago, I said to the comedians 20 years ago, I said, listen, this is. We're doing I Love Lucy. It's evergreen. I don't want you to do anything that's political. I don't want you to do anything that's racist or sexist or anti semitic or homophobic. Just talk about your lives. You know, just be relatable. Include everybody. Make everybody feel good. We're here to help people laugh.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, Wade, that's really different from the way late night comedy has been recently, and especially, of course, with Colbert. There were controversies about him being political and controversies about whether CBS sort of got pushed him out because he was too political. Do you think that there's a particular place now to just get rid of politics or is that avoiding the issues?

[Byron Allen]

No, no, I think there's plenty. There will always be plenty of political humor. That's not going to go away, you know. You know, there are easily seven comedians doing political humor. You have Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Jimmy Kimmel, Bill Maher, John Oliver, John Stewart, Greg Gutfeld. That's just seven, to name a few.

[Walter Isaacson]

But do you think CBS felt more comfortable with you because you weren't political, given all that they've been through?

[Byron Allen]

No, I think it was purely an economic decision. You know, the ratings are slipping across linear television. And when the ratings slip, the ad dollars move. Advertisers don't print money, they ship money. So, you know, you can't ignore the fact that approximately 50% of all viewership is now sitting with streaming. So people forget that Jay Leno took a 50% pay cut. People forget that Seth Meyers, they cut his ban. There are a lot of folks where they have said to the late night comedians, hey, the ratings aren't what they used to be. We now need to adjust this financially. People should remember that it's not show business, it's business show. Now, if you look at the ratings and you approach it as business show, what you'll notice is that Colbert's ratings, and not just Colbert, anybody doing political humor. But in the case of Colbert, his repeats were negative 52%. Because when you're doing political humor, you're talking about the news from eight weeks ago, 12 weeks ago, when you repeat the show, because we didn't do political or topical humor, our repeats were only negative 14%.

[Walter Isaacson]

So tell us about your new show and what can viewers expect during this rollout?

[Byron Allen]

You know, our show is simple. We are here to make you laugh. That's all we want to do, make you laugh. And I'm sitting there with four other comedians, two to my right, two to my left. And I have to tell you, in the 20 years I've been doing the show, I'm so impressed with the comedians I'm seeing today because they grew up having access to every comedian. When I started stand up in 75, I saw the comedians at the Comedy Store that showed up. That's it. And now they are on the Internet and they see every comedian that is ever engaged in the art of comedy.

[Walter Isaacson]

You talk about it being show business, you talk about it being shown.

[Byron Allen]

Business show. Yeah, business show, not show business.

[Walter Isaacson]

And you've created a really big business empire. I think people probably don't quite realize that you come at this as an entrepreneur and as a builder of a big business. Tell me how you decided to become a media baron in that way.

[Byron Allen]

Well, first of all, thank you for asking. You know, here's what I would say, Walter. You know, I learned early on, you know, ideas are a dime a dozen. The key words are execution and distribution of those ideas. I invested a little over a billion dollars buying abc, NBC, CBS and Fox affiliates. And I sat on the CBS affiliates board. I gave up my seat to my president of broadcasting who works for me. And I sit on the board of the national association of Broadcasters. But when I sat on the CBS affiliates board and all these other stations that we own and control, I said, look, I don't know why we're spending so much money to win late night. Because even though you win, all you're doing is handing me an audience at 1:30 in the morning that I'm going to use to, you know, go right into a 1-800- spray on hair. 1-8-infomercials. Right? 1-800 abs in 24 hours. And I said, I understand why you would invest a great deal of capital to win in the morning, seven to nine in the afternoon with your game shows and your soap operas in the evening with the evening news and in prime time. But we don't need to deploy resources to win late night to go into 1-800- spray on hair infomercials. I said, save that money. They were losing over 40 million a year on Colbert. The show was costing 110, 120 million, according to CBS. I said, okay, you've decided not to go forward with Colbert. I can save you that 40 million plus pay you 15 million for that hour. So that's a $55 million positive swing in your direction. And I will put a show in there where the ratings will be comparable and the ratings are comparable. When you compare our May 22 to May of 25 for Colbert, our ratings were 5% less than his. And that does not include the cord cutting. The cord cutting in the last year of 5 to 10% of the audience going away, they have received a $55 million positive swing. They're not spending 110 to 120 million plus. They're getting 15 million from us. So it's a big win. And it's going to be a model that's going to revolutionize network TV forever, because the networks are spending an enormous sum on live sports. And once again, you don't print money, you shift it. And as they all have to get their live sports to be competitive, they have less for entertainment content. And as an owner of abc, NBC, CBS and Fox affiliates, I had a front row seat to that. And I say, if this math doesn't work, and the way I can be helpful is to start providing content that is competitive and at the same time can save you an enormous sum of capital.

[Walter Isaacson]

So you've explained that you're paying $15 million. Right, for leasing, let's say, that hour of CBS. That helps them economically and they save.

[Byron Allen]

And they don't lose 40 million because they were losing 40.

[Walter Isaacson]

So explain how that works. You just go to them and say, I'll pay you for this hour. And then you collect the revenues from the advertising and things. And you think that can be a template going forward?

[Byron Allen]

Yeah, I bought the entire two hours. I also bought the hour behind the 11:30 hour. So I bought the 11:35 hour. And that's Comics Unleashed with Byron Allen. Two half hours back to back. And also right after that, I have two half hours back to back of Funny you should ask our comedy game show. So I bought a two hour comedy block. So we have two hours per night, 10 hours per week, 520 hours per year on CBS, making us the largest provider of network content to the number one network in America, providing more hours than all of the studios combined. Now with that, Walter, we have 14,000, a little over 14,000 30 second spots that we have to go sell to advertisers and those advertisers buy our spots. That's how we fund the production of the show and we fund the acquisition of the 520 hours over that one year period. That is a revolutionary business model that I created and I've created this new platform and I knew that the network and all the networks, quite frankly, they need it because they're spending billions on top of billions to acquire the rights to live sports.

[Walter Isaacson]

Are you worried about the fading of linear TV even to this business model that you've done? And how have you hedged against that in your business?

[Byron Allen]

Great question. You know, I'm not worried about it. You know, nothing ever really goes away. You know, when the movie industry came along over 100 years ago, everybody's like, okay, this is the movie industry. You can now say, you know, and then, then radio came along and then everybody said, well, that's a wrap. The movie industry is going to now suffer. And then TV came along and they said, well, goodbye movies and goodbye radio. And that didn't happen. And here's, here comes cable and here comes, you know, VHS and DVDs. Everything became additive along the way. Nothing replaced, enhanced everything. It made it better. You know, television made the movies better. It was another place to go and monetize the movies. DVDs made the movies better. Cable, everything made it all better. The landscape becomes more textured. So none of it's going to go away. Linear will always be here. Linear TV will be here.

[Walter Isaacson]

Byron Allen, thank you so much for joining us.

[Byron Allen]

Thank you, Walter. Really appreciate it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And as we've been on air, President Trump has posted again that he is calling off the massive strikes he threatened on Iran and that negotiations instead will continue. That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can always find it online and all across social media. Thank you for watching watching and good night from Paris.

[Byron Allen]

This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Be prepared for anything with comprehensive coverage

[Martina Navratilova]

from real experts like me. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.

[Byron Allen]

From the descendants of history makers involved in the Louisiana Purchase to the Lewis and Clark expedition discover the untold stories of American expansion in the CNN original series, this Land, now streaming on the CNN app.