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- [00:05]
Bianna Golodriga
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:10]
Lee Bollinger
That agent had a split second to.
- [00:13]
Bianna Golodriga
Make a decision, a nation left reeling after a second deadly shooting by federal immigration officers in Minneapolis. I asked the city's former police chief, Madeira Arredondo, what it means for policing and public trust. And I speak to David Beer from the Cato Institute about the expansion of federal power and the civil liberties caught in the crossfire. Then Israel retrieves the remains of its last hostage held in Gaza. We'll have the details from Jerusalem.
- [00:44]
Lee Bollinger
Also ahead, it's only when civil society broadly sort of acts and rises up and said this cannot stand that you, you really have effective resistance.
- [00:56]
Bianna Golodriga
How to fight against the attack on academic freedom and why America's future depends on it. Former Columbia President Lee Bollinger tells Michelle Martin about his new book, university A Reckoning. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. We begin in Minneapolis where outrage is deepening and protests have intensified after another deadly shooting. 37 year old registered nurse Alex Predding was killed by Border Patrol agents on Saturday, just weeks after Renee Goode was shot and killed there by an immigration officer. Already a battle over the details of what unfolded is dividing the country. The administration officials were quick to claim Preddy presented a threat to the officers who restrained and then killed him. But multiple bystander videos contradict that claim. Here's one of them and a warning. This video is disturbing.
- [02:18]
David Beer
Hey, that is police brutality.
- [02:21]
Bianna Golodriga
They are hitting that observer.
- [02:24]
Michelle Martin
They are kicking them in the face.
- [02:26]
Lee Bollinger
Caleb.
- [02:31]
David Beer
What the.
- [02:35]
Bianna Golodriga
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem says that Preddy intended to kill law enforcement, while White House adviser Stephen Miller called him a quote, would be assassin. But those who knew Alex Preddy described him as a devoted colleague, a friendly neighbor and a man who cared deeply for his country. As tensions rise in Minneapolis, local police fear the city may be heading down the same spiral that began in 2020 after the murder of George Floyd. So let's bring in the city's former chief of police, Madeiro Arredondo for more on this. Chief Arredondo, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us. As I just noted, we are coming up on the sixth anniversary of the kill. George Floyd, in your city, you were chief of police at the time of his killing. There had been a lot of resources, a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears invested in restoring trust in that community from the police department and local residents there. Are you concerned that the Past few weeks will undo all of the work that has been done to repair that relationship.
- [03:43]
Madeira Arredondo
Bianna, thank you so much for having me. Yes, I am concerned what we have right now on the ground here beyond in Minneapolis and parts of the country are seeing this unfold is a crisis of credibility. Many folks, including in the law enforcement professionals around the country, are questioning the truthfulness of the DHS statements related to Mr. Preddy's shooting and killing death as it relates to what we see in the videos. And so, as you just mentioned, Minneapolis is a city that has been trying to heal from the pain and trauma of almost six years ago, marking the killing of Mr. George Floyd and now what's occurring with both Ms. Renee Good's killing and also now Mr. Preddy. Within three weeks of each other, those wounds are starting to come open and it's really creating a very tense situation. And again, a credibility of a crisis.
- [04:46]
Bianna Golodriga
In terms of the relationship and any tensions arising from the immigration enforcement agents, the border Patrol, the ICE agents and the local police there. I mean, we've seen an influx of some 3,000 agents over the last few weeks relative to, I think it's roughly 600 police officers in Minneapolis. From what you are hear from those officers who you served with, how are they responding to this and what is the concern about the potential of added friction between these two separate, one state, one federal law enforcement agency? We're already having officials casting blame on local police there for not doing enough and responding quickly enough to some of these protests.
- [05:30]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah, Bianna, great question. So there's really three things that folks on the ground here, local officials are, are really concerned about. So one is first and foremost, there has not been the sort of traditional cooperation and communication that federal partners in local departments like the Minneapolis Police Department have had standing for for many years. I had a great working relationship with our federal partners during my time in service as chief of police that doesn't exist. So that makes it incredibly difficult, particularly when you're dealing with these high profile, tragic incidents. The other thing is more doesn't mean better. So with situation that it's already tense, adding in additional federal agents within the city, it again, it's increasing the uncertainty and the fear for many of the residents. And I would also just say that, you know, Minneapolis Police Department right now is staffed at 600 personnel. They are stretched thin. Minneapolis Police Chief O' Hara has mentioned that they still have the main responsibility of providing 911 service. And when they have to respond sort of intermittently to, to these incidents that flare up within the city involving ICE agents. It really just hampers their effectiveness to really to make sure that they're prioritizing their service for their residents.
- [06:50]
Bianna Golodriga
And we want to remind viewers that as we speak right now, a federal judge in Minneapolis is hearing an argument to consider whether or the Trump administration's search in these law enforcement agents is violating the state sovereignty. So that's happening right now. We'll talk more about that with my next guest. But I do want to play some sound from Homeland Security Secretary Kristi NOEM and the U.S. border Patrol commander Greg Bevino over the weekend, who right after the shooting, when little information was known other than the video that was already put online, they publicly labeled Petty an armed suspect and described the encounter as self defense. Let's play sound from both of them. An individual approached U.S. border Patrol officers with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun. The officers attempted to disarm this individual, but the armed suspect reacted violently. Fearing for his life and for the lives of his fellow officers around him, an agent fired defensive shots.
- [07:54]
David Beer
The suspect also had two loaded magazines.
- [07:57]
Jeremy Dimon
And no accessible ID.
- [08:00]
David Beer
This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.
- [08:09]
Bianna Golodriga
So first of all, we've seen multiple angles of this incident between petty and law enforcement officials there, and it doesn't seem to be matching what we heard from Secretary Noem or from Greg Bevino. But separate from that, is it appropriate, is it standard protocol in the minutes, hours after a shooting like this to have the heads of these agencies cast such blame already on thei mean they call him a suspect? I don't even know. Is that the right term? Would Petty be described as a suspect at this point? I believe we have lost audio from Mr. Arredondo. I'm so sorry. We're going to work on fixing that. We're going to come back after a quick break. All right. Welcome back to the program. I believe as we are continuing to try to reconnect with Chief Arredondo. You can hear me? Thank you so much. Sorry about that. Former Minneapolis chief of police. Before we got disconnected, we had played sound from both the Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and U.S. border Patrol commander Greg Bevino, where they really seemed to assign blame before an investigation even unfolded to Alex Preddy, even calling him a suspect. And I asked if that is the appropriate language to use and term and what you make of their characterization of what happened in the moments right after the shoot.
- [09:53]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah, well, traditionally and typically when you have a high profile crime investigation that you have you're not going to make those types of statements, particularly when there's been no investigation completed. The other problem you run into is if you make those statements, you got to sort of own them. And so if you're releasing video that appears to be contradicting the very same statements you're making, that is a problem. And that's where we have this crisis of credibility right now.
- [10:22]
Bianna Golodriga
I want to play the video for our viewers again, and we'll play two different versions and angles. The first question I want to ask you is about the pepper spray that happens where Preddy is sprayed by these officers before he's actually taken to the ground and shot. So let's put the video up. You see a woman who is shoved to the ground there. You see then Alex Preddy stepping up to help her. An agent then begins deploying pepper spray at close range. Is that consistent that in and of itself, the spraying of pepper spray at close range? With police training.
- [11:02]
Madeira Arredondo
So. And with local police departments across the country, you know, you're taught de escalation, using that sort of tactic with using the pepper spray, that would seem to escalate situations. There's a lot of training that local police departments, particularly the Minneapolis Police Department, does when they're handling situations of crowd control. That would be a situation that would be deemed you're sort of escalating things and not de. Escalating them.
- [11:31]
Bianna Golodriga
And we also know that Alex Preddy had in his hand a phone, and he was also armed. He was licensed to carry a firearm in Minnesota. Does allow for concealed carry. So the question then turned to when these officers became aware of his firearm. Let's show the video. Then, after he is taken to the ground and sprayed there, you see at least half a dozen agents surround Preddy, forcing him prone. At what point, in your view, in just watching this video, does he still pose a threat to officers? And you see one of them remove his gun, walk away. But it seems that the more officers that are there, the more chaotic the scene actually becomes before they start shooting at him.
- [12:23]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah. So when you look at that video, when I observed the video and I think of the statements from DHS, first of all, claiming Mr. Prady was attacking law enforcement officers, I don't see that with the video that they've released. Also, you know, as it's been mentioned, Mr. Peretti was a licensed conceal and carry owner, which is. Which is legal in Minnesota, and. And more. So when it appears that one of the agents removes what appears to be the. The firearm that Mr. Freddie owned, that is taking place, at least with the video that I've seen, certainly with cnn, has released before the shots ring out. So you have to ask, a reasonable officer has to ask what was, what was the threat where you would need to use deadly force on Mr. Preddy. And that's where it's in conflict with what DHS statements are and what you visually see in that video.
- [13:21]
Bianna Golodriga
You mentioned that police officers are trained to de escalate in a situation like this. And I want to play sound from your successor, the current Minneapolis police Chief, Brian o', Hara, from over the weekend, who made clear that officers find themselves routinely in dangerous situations, in situations where they have remove guns from suspects as well. And here's how he described how they are trained to handle those types of situations.
- [13:50]
Michelle Martin
People have had enough.
- [13:51]
David Beer
This is the third shooting now in less than three weeks. The Minneapolis Police Department went the entire.
- [13:57]
Madeira Arredondo
Year, last year, recovering about 900 guns from the street, arresting hundreds and hundreds of violent offenders. And we didn't shoot anyone.
- [14:08]
Bianna Golodriga
So how do you explain the contrast from what you've heard there from the police chief? I would imagine the same applied to when you were chief of police and what we've seen play out in not one, but now two shootings.
- [14:22]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah, I think it's to what Chief o' Hara of the Minneapolis Police Department noted. His officers, his men and women, they work that community day in and day out. They respond to a wide range of calls from whether it's protesting to domestic to traffic stops. They're trained extensively in de escalation. And so they're, they're able to use that and use those tools and that training to effectively build trust with their communities. I'm not sure, quite honestly, the type of training that those federal agents have. They certainly it's seeming to go against what local police departments would train in. And so, and by the way, if they're not also communicating with local police department, it's a recipe for these tragedies to happen and sadly to continue to happen if it's not addressed.
- [15:15]
Bianna Golodriga
It is interesting how the White House, how President Trump has responded to this shooting relative to the shooting of Renee Goode. He said that there's an investigation going on and he also sent border czar Tom Homan to Minneapolis, said that he will be reporting directly to him. There had been some reports of perhaps some tension between Kristi Noem and Tom Homan, that perhaps she was marginalizing his role here. It sounds like the president is giving him more broader authority. And then there was just this post on Truth Social that the President put up just moments ago where he said, governor Walz called me with a request to work together with respect to Minnesota. It was a very good call. We actually seem to be on a similar wavelength. And then said that he is happy that there is so much tremendous Success in Washington D.C. in Memphis, Tennessee, New Orleans, other places where there have been federal officers deployed. But what do you make of this language from the President? Does that suggest to you that given the reaction that he's seen nationwide from Democrats and Republicans, that he is also aware that things need to de escalate quickly?
- [16:36]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah. This is the first time that I'm hearing this from you. Thank you for sharing that information. I think that certainly the folks in the state of Minnesota have been looking to try to de escalate this situation, to not have federal agents ICE doing this Operation Metro surge. It sounds to me from the President's statement and having that communication with Governor Walz of Minnesota that they're trying to seek some common ground. I think that it's clear the optics and the messaging that's coming out of Minneapolis and certainly Minnesota with the federal agents, the recent deaths of Ms. Good and Mr. Preddy, it's bad. It's not going well in terms of the court of public opinion. And so if there is an opportunity here with the statement that you just read from the President and the governor to come to some sort of off ramp or to some sort of mutual agreement that lessens the risk of these tragedies from happening, then I think that's important as a way to move forward.
- [17:36]
Bianna Golodriga
On a personal note, I'm just wondering how this has been for you this past month, just as a civilian now not commanding a police office and other officers, but actually as a former officer yourself, just watching all of this play out in a city I know you love and a community that you've invested a lot of time in as well.
- [17:59]
Madeira Arredondo
Yeah, you know, my heart is still here with Minneapolis. This community. It's strong, it's resilient. I know that you probably knew just a couple of days ago it was 30 below windchill. 50,000 people went outside to peacefully protest and assemble and just to be in community with each other. That's how Minnesotans are. I also think about the men and women who wear that uniform, who will be here in our communities long after the federal operation ends and that trust they need to build those relationships each and every day. I know it's hard on them. Chief Ojara's department is limited and so I do hope. And from your statement just you just read today from the president, I hope that this is a new pathway, sort of a middle roadway for them to come to some sort of arrangement where there can be some sort of peace moving forward here.
- [18:57]
Michelle Martin
Yeah.
- [18:58]
Bianna Golodriga
And I just have to say as an American, you know, I live in another state, but we're all Americans here. And so none of this is something anybody wants to see play out on the streets of a country we all love so dearly. Madeira Arredondo, thank you so much for the time. We appreciate it.
- [19:16]
Madeira Arredondo
Thank you very much.
- [19:18]
Bianna Golodriga
And now as America watches the surge of federal immigration officers in Minneapolis, questions are mounting about the legality and constitutionality of their actions. A New York Times poll taken just before Alex Preddy's killing finds that a majority of American voters believe ICE has gone too far. Well, now some Senate Democrats are vowing to block a government funding package, a move likely to spark a government shutdown at the end of the week. Well, our next guest has been sounding the alarm about the dangers of expanding the budget and mission of ice. David Beer is director of Immigration studies at the Cato Institute. He joins me now from Washington, D.C. so, David, I know you were listening to my conversation there with the police chief and also heard the post that President Trump put on Truth Social about his conversation with Governor Walz. An attempt to de escalate, hopefully is how many people are interpreting this and perhaps it is related to the potential budgetary crisis and potential government shutdown we may see in just a few days time with Democrats now saying after what's played out, they will not vote in favor of funding these programs. Let me ask you, though, your reaction to what we have been seeing in this debate over the infringement of state rights and the search of troops, some 3,000 far outnumbering the police force there in Minneapolis.
- [20:44]
David Beer
Yeah, that's absolutely right. This is happening for two reasons. One, Minneapolis has been singled out among all cities and locations in the United States. It really does not have very many people who are in the country illegally. This is a reaction to some fraud allegations dealing with some people who are largely in the United States legally, either refugee status, legal permanent residents or US Citizens has nothing to do with Immigration and Customs Enforcement arresting people in the country illegally. The other reason that this is happening is that they have taken border patrol, who's supposed to be patrolling the U. S. Mexico border, and moved them, you know, 1500 miles north to Minneapolis, where now they are on our streets. And look, you pointed out the number of agents is so disproportionate to anything that could be considered a legitimate law enforcement purpose here, that you have literally dozens of agents on the streets patrolling and not having anything to do except interact with bystanders and observers and other people who are watching their activities. The result is these tragic incidents where people are being harassed and assaulted by law enforcement for exercising their First Amendment rights, either protesting. Or in the case of Alex, he wasn't a protester. He was an observer. He was there to document the operation that was happening, what these agents were doing. He was taking video. He was not trying to interfere in any way. He was not even really trying to protest. He was there as a legal observer, which is his constitutional rights. And they approached him, which resulted in ultimately his death. And so that's really what's happening here, is that Minneapolis has been singled out. The other thing to note is it's not random, it's not unexpected that they are approaching these bystanders and these people who are observing them. They have said that videoing, videoing and filming these ICE operations, these Border Patrol operations, is illegal, is against the law, is impeding, is doxxing their agents. And so when you have the mindset coming from the head of the Department of Homeland Security saying that this is illegal and what these individuals are doing on the street is a threat to you, then you are going to interact with them in a very hostile way. And that's what we've seen. So you really need to change the entire dynamic by focusing on the legitimate purpose of law enforcement, which is to protect our rights, to protect our rights against people who would do us harm. That's violent people, people who would violate our rights in other ways.
- [23:40]
Bianna Golodriga
So just to be clear, we don't know the intention of Alex Preddy leading up to what was documented on video. We don't know if he intended to protest. The officers there would suggest that he was intervening in what was happening there. In an operation, it does appear he is stepping in to help someone who had fallen and was pushed to the ground. That having been said, he also didn't appear to be brandishing a weapon or seem to be a major threat to law enforcement, as had been described by Kristi Noem and others. As we stated, a federal judge right now in Minneapolis is hearing whether or not to consider. Consider the Trump administration's surge of thousands of these federal officers, violation of the state sovereignty. Now, the Trump administration has called the state's legal theory a fundamental misreading of the 10th Amendment. And from the early reporting, in terms of the Line of questioning from this judge, it does appear that she is also skeptical of this argument. What does that tell you about this question over what rights federal law enforcement have over a state's sovereignty?
- [24:53]
David Beer
Yeah, I mean, this goes back to the founding era concerns about having a federal police force, about having a standing army, about having people who are unaccountable to the locality in which they are operating, which is really the case here. I mean, these people have no accountability to the residents of Minneapolis. They don't really worry about the popularity of their operation. There they are. So the end result is they are operating in a way that they never would operate if the voters of Minneapolis had a say. And so there is a conflict here. It is a real conflict. It was one the founders are worried about. Unfortunately, we've created a government that is so large and has such so many powers and so many duties that ultimately we've really gone so far beyond what the founders imagined the federal government would be doing. And this is just another example with immigration policy.
- [25:51]
Bianna Golodriga
Right. And really at question are first amendment rights and now second amendment rights. Because we have gun rights groups that are warning that these heavily militarized federal agents are operating amongst armed civilians who have a legal right. And as in the case of Alex Preddy, was a licensed gun owner. And again, in the state where you could walk with. It was legal to walk with his weapon as well. He didn't appear to be brandishing it in front of the law enforcement officers. I'd like to play sound of what Greg Bevino said about this particular issue.
- [26:28]
David Beer
We respect that second amendment right, but those rights don't. Those rights don't count.
- [26:34]
Jeremy Dimon
When you riot and assault, delay, obstruct.
- [26:37]
David Beer
And impede law enforcement officers. It's too bad the consequences had to be paid because he injected himself into that crime scene.
- [26:48]
Bianna Golodriga
Do these operations create a second amendment conflict that the courts haven't even fully begun to grapple with?
- [26:58]
David Beer
I mean, before today. I mean, the statements that are coming out not just from Bevino, but from the Department of Justice about our right to carry arms during. During a protest. Absolutely fundamental Second amendment right, First Amendment right to do so. We saw that be carried out numerous times throughout the Biden administration Protest. You had individuals carrying arms. It is a absolute ironclad right that we all enjoy. So the idea that somehow the fact that he had a gun is in of itself some reason that he should have been approached or that he should have been assaulted by law enforcement makes no sense, has no legal or constitutional basis to it. The actual official Statement for the Department of Homeland Security on this incident is he approached law enforcement with his gun. That's what the only base. And then they said they tried to disarm him. Now we all seen the video. It doesn't look like that at all that, you know, his, his gun is concealed. He's not really approaching them as much as they're approaching him. But that is their official position is if you walk down a street and you end up approaching an officer, they can stop and try to disarm you. Of course that's going to result in people dying if you try to assault the Second Amendment in that way.
- [28:25]
Bianna Golodriga
Attorney General Pam Bondi over the weekend following the shooting said all of this can end. These ICE agents, federal agents, will leave the state, state of Minnesota if the state turns over all welfare data, voter rolls and an end to sanctuary policies. Governor Walz called this a provocation. Is this a legitimate law enforcement request in your view?
- [28:48]
David Beer
No, not at all. This is really getting at the strongest part in my opinion of Minneapolis and Minnesota's case here is the fact that they're trying to clearly coerce the state into totally changing its laws and its policies by imposing this many agents on the street and conducting these chaotic operations which are not protecting public safety, they're causing more problems for public safety, diverting the state's resources and law enforcement resources into this. And so no, it is not a public safety focused mission. We know who is being arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Just 5% of the people entering Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention facilities this year had any violent criminal conviction. So the idea that this is all about protecting the public from violent criminals is just not borne out by what ICE is doing right now. And so yes, there's a serious concern that this has nothing to do with law enforcement and this is about something political.
- [29:54]
Bianna Golodriga
Quickly, in the news that we just got for the President posting about his productive conversation with Governor Tim Walz, do you find that reassuring in terms of de escalating?
- [30:04]
David Beer
No. We've heard similar types of walk backs from the President before. He is the one who sent all these agents to Minnesota. He is the one who said it would be retribution for essentially not supporting him and his policies. This is a president who has consistently followed just one path and that is a path to have Immigration and Customs Enforcement unchained from any level of accountability or responsibility. And I do not believe that we will see a serious change in policy as a result of this.
- [30:40]
Bianna Golodriga
All right, David Beer, thank you so much for the time.
- [30:43]
David Beer
Thank you.
- [30:44]
Bianna Golodriga
We turn next to Israel, which announced today that it has recovered the remains of the final Israeli hostage held in Gaza, Ron Gvili, a police officer who was killed and abducted during the October 7 attacks. His recovery marks the first time since 2014 that there are no Israeli hostages, living or deceased, inside the Palestinian enclave. The Israeli government had made the return of all hostages a condition for reopening the Rafah crossing and advancing to the second phase of the Gaza ceasefire and peace framework. Correspondent Jeremy Dimon joins us now from Jerusalem with more on this. So Jeremy, if we just reflect on this moment, the symbolism here, finally, closure for these hostage families, for Ron's family was the remaining hostage held in Gaza. Just talk about the feeling there amongst Israelis of this milestone.
- [31:42]
Jeremy Dimon
Well, in many ways, Bianna, this marks not only closure for the family of Rangvilli, but really for, for the Israelis as a whole. This is a nation that knew the names of almost every single hostage by heart. They have held those names in their hearts for 843 days with Ron Gvili being the last among them to be returned to Israel today. And indeed, 843 days after October 7th, not only have all of the hostages who were taken on that day now been returned dead or alive, but it also marks the first time since 2014 that there are no Israelis being held hostage in Gaza. And so certainly a milestone moment and also the closing of a very dark chapter in Israel's history. We have seen today videos of politicians and regular people alike taking off those yellow pins that have come to symbolize the fight for these hostages, for the every single hostage to ultimately be returned to Israel. One slogan that's going around the country today is first to enter, last to return. That is a reference to the fact that Ron Gvili, who was a 24 year old police officer on October 7, 2023, that he rushed to Kibbutz Alumim, one of those kibbutzes on the Gaza border on the morning of October October 7th, to try and defend that community from invading Hamas and other Palestinian militant forces. We're told that he died while combating those Hamas militants on that day, only after he ran out of ammunition. The Israeli military said that it began this operation to recover Ron Gvili's body yesterday morning in the Shujayya neighborhood of Gaza City. This all happened on the Israeli side, I should note, of that yellow line. And it came after the Israeli military received intelligence last week indicating that Gvili's body was buried in a cemetery in that area. I should note though, that Palestinian Islamic Jihad, one of those militant Groups in Gaza said that it provided the mediators with coordinates of where Gvili's body was held three weeks ago and accused Israel of deliberately stalling the coordination and recovery process. Regardless of that, what is clear is that now phase two can indeed move forward with fewer, at least, Israeli objections. We know that the opening of that Rafah crossing in both directions to allow Palestinians to, to finally be able to both leave and also to return to the Gaza Strip. It is set to be opened this week. Now, as a result, Israel had previously held up the opening of that crossing, which should have taken place in the early weeks of this ceasefire due to the fact that Gvili's body had not yet been returned. Another call also from Gaza's civil defense for heavy machinery to be allowed to enter the Gaza Strip so that the bodies of thousands of Palestinians buried under the rubble in Gaza can finally, perhaps also have a chance of being recovered. Bianna.
- [34:56]
Bianna Golodriga
And yet, Jeremy, today, with the return of Ron Gvili's remains, Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed the Knesset there in Israel and said, quote, the next stage is the disarmament of Hamas and the demilitarization of Gaza, not its reconstruction. We have an interest in advancing this stage, not delaying it. How is that being interpreted amongst mediators?
- [35:18]
Jeremy Dimon
Well, listen, it certainly contradicts what we've heard from the Americans. American officials in recent weeks have made clear that their top priorities during this next phase of the cease fire agreement are on the one hand, yes, indeed, the disarmament of Hamas, which is going to be a very contentious and thorny issue, but on the other hand, also the reconstruction of the Gaza Strip. And I can tell you from speaking with sources involved in this process, they understand the mediators and the officials involved in the next phases of this agreement, the enormous need that exists for housing in Gaza right now, where tents and tarps simply are not enough to withstand the cold conditions that have existed there in recent weeks, and that a lot more is obviously needed to allow the people of Gaza to begin to move forward. And also so that this new palace Palestinian technocratic committee, which is supposed to take over governance from Hamas, can actually show that it can govern the Gaza Strip and deliver for its people.
- [36:15]
Bianna Golodriga
All right, Jeremy Dimon reporting live from Jerusalem. Thank you. We'll be right back after this short break. And now, after years of turmoil at Columbia, the university has named a new president, legal scholar Jennifer Nuken. You'll recall the school was home to major protests after October 7th. And now, along with other US higher learning institutions, it is struggling to manage threats from The Trump administration. Lee Bollinger is one of America's most well known academic leaders, including as Columbia's president for over 20 years. And his new book, University A Reckoning, is a call for academic institutions to stand up against the pressure from the White House. Here he is with Michele Martin.
- [37:07]
Michelle Martin
Thanks, Bianna. Lee Bollinger, thank you so much for talking with us.
- [37:10]
Lee Bollinger
My pleasure.
- [37:11]
Michelle Martin
I should say, Mr. President, because you've led two of our most prestigious and competitive universities, University of Michigan and Columbia University. And I actually should mention that these were not placid times when you were leading these institutions. There were student protests, there was congressional scrutiny, there was political pressure, there were sort of political currents. But obviously you wrote this book thinking that there's something special about this moment. So what is it about this moment that strikes you as different?
- [37:44]
Lee Bollinger
Well, I think the first thing is the federal government assault and intrusion into the academic affairs of university. So that has not really happened, certainly not to this degree, for decades. I mean, you really have to go back to the McCarthy period, which was really about one senator leading a campaign of intolerance. You have to go back to that for something comparable. The level of intrusion, the threat to academic freedom. The need to think about universities and their role in the Constitution and the First Amendment is much more imperative today than it really has been in modern history. So that's really the precipitating reason for the book.
- [38:37]
Michelle Martin
In your book, you write, we are, in short, witnessing a tectonic shift in America toward the use of authoritarian tactics that threaten our democratic form of government. The university is among the first, along with the press of the major independent institutions in society, to feel the brunt of this new and frightening transformation. I mean, so your point here is that, yes, the universities and the press are on the leading edge of this, but this is really about democracy. What convinces you of that? Why do you say that?
- [39:07]
Lee Bollinger
I think it's both about democracy and about fundamental values in the country. I mean, we've seen from the very start of the administration efforts to try to silence and really attack law firms, media, civil service, independent agencies that provide the nation with objective information, like the Bureau of Labor Statistics and then universities. The business community has also faced this. If there's any kind of opposition, there's an effort to come down very hard on them and to try to silence them. So this is something that you really cannot have if you're going to be committed to a democracy and if you're going to be committed to a nation that values knowledge and independent information and knowledge and that's where we have been for the past century. And it would be a tragedy to.
- [40:17]
Michelle Martin
Lose that as a person who, presumably just through your own work as a scholar, as a lawyer, as a leader of these prominent institutions, you've met a lot of these industry leaders. And one of the things that you pointed out is that a lot of them folded over pretty fast. Amazon was going to, or talked about having some sort of indicator on their website of the cost of the Trump administration's sort of tariff scheme on different products. And of course, he threatened them, and they immediately folded. A number of law firms.
- [40:51]
David Beer
Right.
- [40:51]
Michelle Martin
Some of the finest, most distinguished lawyers in the country. He threatened them, they folded. I'm just curious why you think they've capitulated so quickly.
- [41:00]
Lee Bollinger
Yeah. So I think this has come. The whole sort of affair has taken people by surprise. People have been shocked by the level of assault on basic values and basic institutions. And so we were not prepared for it. I think it's just a combination of. It's very, very difficult to face a situation in which the government's full power, which is immense, can be brought down on you and face what everybody will always say, an existential choice. Do you capitulate? Do you try to find a way out of this, even if that means sacrificing some of your values, or do you stand up and try to fight, fight back? But it's a really hard problem. And I'm very sympathetic to the people who have felt, and institutions who have felt that they had to find a way to save their institutions by negotiation and conciliation. But it is the case that the only way in which you can effectively counter this is by collective action. It's not by an individual institution or a single sector of the society. Everybody who writes about the democracies, the end of democracies and so on, I mean, all the scholarship points out that it's only when civil society broadly sort of acts and rises up and said, this cannot stand, that you really have effective resistance.
- [42:47]
Michelle Martin
A lot of people see universities in lots of different ways. I mean, some people see colleges and universities as places you go to learn stuff so you can get a job. They're engines of the economy. Why should someone, perhaps, who didn't have the chance to go to a university embrace that idea?
- [43:06]
Lee Bollinger
I think people understand in their hearts that having major institutions, but of all kinds, from community colleges all the way through to the highest research universities, that it is really valuable for the society to have this kind of effort, human effort, to expand knowledge, because it benefits the society in all kinds of ways, everything from economic development to simply making it possible to understand life. And it applies not just to the people who come and our students or to the faculty who are there, but it benefits everybody in the society. I think also that there is a campaign that's been going on for many years of people who want to characterize universities as in very negative stereotypes, as filled with intolerance, ideological, not scholarly, too costly, et cetera, et cetera. And while there are fair criticisms about universities, many of which I have made myself, the fact of the matter is, if you look at all the parts of the society and you say which ones have the most integrity in pursuing what their mission is, I think universities are at the very forefront of that. And the proof is in part that everybody in the world wants to come and attend universities in America because they really are the standard for this.
- [44:56]
Michelle Martin
Well, they did. That might not be the case anymore. I mean, the number of international students coming to the United States has really fallen precipitously. You know, it's interesting, the irony being.
- [45:06]
Lee Bollinger
Yeah, but not because of the quality of universities.
- [45:08]
Michelle Martin
No, no. But because of the political environment. You know, the irony is that these concrete financial pressures being placed on universities are having a deleterious effect on kind of the research flow. We see that, you know, top scholars, research dollars are flowing to Canada, to China, some $400 million in grants and contracts frozen at Columbia, $510 million at Brown, $1 billion at Cornell, $790 million at Northwestern, much of it tied to demands about governance or compliance. What do you think the consequence of this is going to be down the line?
- [45:49]
Lee Bollinger
This idea of the Trump administration of suspending that kind of funding, you know, for that kind of research is foolhardy. But it's also striking at the basic values that we have committed ourselves to. And it may sound idealistic, but the First Amendment, the constitution of the country, has made it very clear that the value of knowledge and the preservation of democracy, the making it possible to be a democracy, very, very difficult to do that. These are what the country is committed to. And the things we're talking about, Michelle, of fundamental research in these areas and beyond in the liberal arts as well, are what are that's threatened by this kind of use of the lever of funding to accomplish intrusions into pure academic decision making, faculty, students, policies of the universities.
- [47:10]
Michelle Martin
In your essay for the Atlantic last May, you wrote that strategies of appeasement never work out. At some point when sanity returns, you will be seen as having sacrificed your principles when under pressure, and that will undermine your case forever.
- [47:27]
Lee Bollinger
So.
- [47:29]
Michelle Martin
You draw a contrast between universities that negotiated settlements in Harvard, which chose to resist and won an injunction blocking what a judge called an arbitrary and capricious funding suspension. Based on what you've seen, has Harvard gotten it right so far? And is that a path that others should follow?
- [47:46]
Lee Bollinger
Universities, like other institutions, were surprised and shocked by the level of intrusion and demands and the threats that they faced. Completely understandable, in my view, that universities would respond in different ways and it would be very difficult to organize collective action. Myself, I think that the Harvard approach was the right one, especially for Harvard, because the level of intrusion was much more than for other universities, at least so far. So I do think, and the point of this book, is to try to say that universities need to be much clearer about what their identity is in society, their role and responsibilities. They need to make that claim, and they need to do it in various ways, but through the courts and the First Amendment and law is a primary way. So, yes, I think that standing up and articulating your values and making your defense is the right approach.
- [48:51]
Michelle Martin
And I recognize that this has to be an awkward question for you as the former leader of this institution. But you do realize that for many people, Colombia is the poster child for a peace.
- [49:02]
Lee Bollinger
So I've made a deliberate choice not to criticize, directly criticize my institution and the one that I led for 21 years. One has to be, as I said, you know, very sympathetic with institutions who are trying to struggle with how to deal with the attacks that they have endured.
- [49:26]
Michelle Martin
So what do you think people should do right now? People who share the perspective that you share, people who share the concern, the deep concern that you've articulated, and people who also share the love of knowledge and of free thought that you've articulated.
- [49:40]
Lee Bollinger
So I think we need to settle on the key, the core identity of what universities are. So it's just critical to me that. That we can't fall for this idea that universities are just businesses or that they are only for elites, that, you know, all of these standard criticism. It really is important that universities say who they are and say that with conviction. I think it's also important that universities find ways to act together. This kind of collective action is critical, but it also has to be across sectors. So it has to be with the press. Michelle, you would have to agree, I think, that the press has also failed to develop a collective kind of response to the various intrusions. Same with law firms, same with businesses. Anybody who is a scholar of democracy and how you preserve it in the face of attempts to undermine democracy will say that it's only when civil society broadly stands up and resists that you can have an effective resistance to a government that is intent on achieving its goal of undermining any kind of opposition. That is something that requires daily work. It requires work of many, many people. And, and you never know exactly how it's going to unfold, but that has to happen.
- [51:22]
Michelle Martin
Lee Bullinger, thanks so much for talking with us.
- [51:24]
Lee Bollinger
Thank you, Michelle.
- [51:27]
Bianna Golodriga
And finally, remembering a man who was a giant in more ways than one. Dr. William Foege, one of the brains behind a major public health triumph, died on Saturday at the age of 89. Known for his ring vaccination strategy, he helped wipe out the highly contagious and deadly smallpox disease in the 70s. He was also a staggering 6 foot 7ft tall, 7 inches tall and one time thousands in Nigeria flocked to get vaccinated just to see the quote unquote world's tallest man. Foege led the CDC under Presidents Carter and Reagan, later advocating for childhood vaccinations worldwide. His work, which has saved millions of lives globally, earned him the well deserved Presidential Medal of freedom in 2012. At a time when vaccination policies are now facing rollbacks in the U.S. foege's legacy is more important than ever. All right, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from new.
- [52:41]
David Beer
News cycle making your head spin.
- [52:43]
Bianna Golodriga
The have I got News for you? Crew is here to help with a.
- [52:47]
Lee Bollinger
Comic take on the week's headlines.
- [52:49]
Bianna Golodriga
New episodes Saturdays at 9 on CNN and next day on the CNN app.