Amanpour Podcast – December 5, 2025

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This episode features in-depth interviews on critical current affairs: Christiane Amanpour speaks with General Sir Rupert Smith, former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, about lessons from Bosnia for the ongoing war in Ukraine; hosts a conversation with celebrated photographer Annie Leibovitz on her new book "Women, Volume Two"; and Michelle Martin interviews Will Sommer of The Bulwark on the political fractures developing within Donald Trump’s MAGA movement.

1. Ukraine, Russia, and Lessons from Bosnia with Gen. Sir Rupert Smith

[01:15]–[17:55]

Overview

Amanpour discusses with General Sir Rupert Smith the apparent diplomatic stalemate in Ukraine, Russia’s continued aggression, and historic parallels with the Bosnian conflict, drawing insights on the necessary conditions for ending such wars.

Key Discussion Points

• Diplomatic Failure & Russian Aggression ([01:15]–[03:30])

  • US efforts to negotiate with Putin on Ukraine have floundered.
  • Moscow uses negotiation delays to keep up pressure militarily, notably in eastern Donbas.
  • Parallels to Bosnia’s war—NATO’s eventual military intervention led to peace.

• Bosnia and the Need for Force in Diplomacy ([03:30]–[06:30])

  • Gen. Smith recounts the trigger moment for Western intervention: the Srebrenica massacre.
  • “Srebrenica was the massacre that shocked the world and shocked the West, I think, out of its apathy and made it more willing to use force...” – Amanpour [03:44].
  • Smith describes assembling the Rapid Reaction Force, concluding that “air power alone is [not] capable of doing what everyone wanted it to.” – Smith [04:04]
  • The shelling of the Sarajevo marketplace served as the pretext to finally act.

• Military Breakthrough and Ceasefire ([06:00]–[07:08])

  • With NATO air and armored ground forces, the siege of Sarajevo was broken.
  • Smith emphasizes, “you have to stop fighting. And that’s a ceasefire... whether the ceasefire is permanent or not is another matter.” – Smith [07:29]

• Transition from Ceasefire to Diplomacy ([06:30]–[07:53])

  • Tactical victories produced a ceasefire, enabling diplomatic negotiations at Dayton (1995).
  • Technical, logistical groundwork—restoring utilities—was vital to consolidating a ceasefire.

• Relevance to Ukraine & The Problem of Security Guarantees ([07:53]–[09:00])

  • Smith says, “They’ve got to be a lot better than those in the Budapest memorandum,” referencing Ukraine’s failed security assurances in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons.
  • Any new guarantees must be “copper bottomed” and genuinely deterrent.

• On the Prospects for Ukraine ([09:09]–[09:53])

  • “The Ukraine is not beat this lot. They're going to go on fighting. They do not want to be in Russia.” – Smith [09:13]
  • Predicts continued resistance and fighting as seasons and circumstances change: “I don’t see the fighting stopping.” – Smith [09:53]

• Russia’s Weakness and Information War ([10:24]–[12:19])

  • Despite its army, Russia has failed to achieve decisive victory: “...it still isn’t doing very well in any measure over the last four years. It’s fighting an extremely expensive, in terms of manpower, at least, attritional war...” – Smith [10:35]
  • Russia’s “information operation... is as important, if not more important, in your overarching strategy.” – Smith [11:26]
  • The common depiction of Ukraine as corrupt, Smith notes, is inherited from Soviet structures and weaponized by Russia.

• Corruption, Civic Change, and Putin’s Obsession ([12:26]–[14:56])

  • Smith traces Ukraine’s inherited governing model from the Soviet Union and the evolution of civil society-led change, such as the Maidan.
  • “All the progress of Ukraine becoming a state is driven from the street... This is the civil society changing their state, not the administration or the government.” – Smith [13:19]
  • Putin fears a “prosperous state on its southern border... like Poland,” and each major Russian intervention has been triggered by prospects of Ukraine moving into the EU.

• Russian Disinformation and the West’s Weak Response ([15:03]–[16:15])

  • “We, the Collective West ... are doing very little to counter this [Russian info operation]... let’s start countering this Russian information operation and stop believing [Putin’s] winning.” – Smith [16:15]

• Implications if Ukraine Falls ([16:26]–[17:55])

  • Smith warns, “If Ukraine falls to Russia, then we, the Europeans... have just doubled the length of the border with Russia.”
  • The experienced, well-armed Ukrainian military could become a threat or a boon, depending on which side they ultimately align with: “After Russia, the next biggest army in Europe... Do we want that on the Russian side or on our side?” – Smith [17:09]

Memorable Quotes

• “The event is Srebrenica and the atrocities that followed on from the fall of the... of the safe area.” – Gen. Smith [03:33]
• “All the progress of Ukraine becoming a state is driven from the street, it’s the Orange Revolution, the Maidan... This is the civil society changing their state...” – Gen. Smith [13:19]
• “If Ukraine falls to Russia, then we... have just doubled the length of the border with Russia.” – Gen. Smith [16:44]

2. Art, Power, and Women's Stories – Annie Leibovitz on "Women, Volume Two"

[19:08]–[37:27]

Overview

Amanpour’s conversation with Annie Leibovitz explores her evolution as a photographer, the intent behind her new book, and the lasting impact of her portraits of iconic women (and men).

Key Discussion Points

• The Power of Women's Stories ([20:10]–[21:22])

  • Leibovitz emphasizes the need for more stories about women: “I never, ever want to separate women from men. You know, men have their stories. We don’t have enough stories as women. We need to see ourselves.” – Leibovitz [20:10]
  • Discusses the different ways women historically have been photographed—beauty vs. character.

• Portraits and Personal Narratives ([21:22]–[23:09])

  • Story of novelist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie feeling self-conscious about being photographed: “There was no dismissiveness, no judgment.” – Amanpour recounting Adichie [21:14]
  • Leibovitz prompts Gloria Steinem to write personally in her essay: “How we are seen, no doubt changes how we see ourselves... But being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored.” – Steinem via Leibovitz [22:35]

• Cultural Regression and Gender Politics ([23:09]–[24:51])

  • Conversation turns to modern cultural challenges: “With the rollback of DEI, with actually this administration removing women’s contributions from the Pentagon, from everywhere...” – Amanpour [23:09]
  • Leibovitz contrasts the atmosphere in the US with that in London, sensing “oppression” regarding women's rights.

• On Self-Doubt and Creative Process ([24:05]–[24:45])

  • Steinem describes Leibovitz as “the tallest and most authoritative, unsure person that I’ve ever seen.” Leibovitz reflects, “...stepping back and not being sure, which falls into all those stories about failing is important.” – Leibovitz [24:27]
  • “The book is really for our daughters.” – Leibovitz [24:47]

• Iconic Portraits and Artistic Choices ([24:57]–[26:57])

  • Discusses Rihanna’s maternity portraits: “She took that Demi Moore picture and blew it out of the water...” – Leibovitz [25:05]
  • New Michelle Obama portrait described as “phenomenal”; Leibovitz shares behind-the-scenes stories and openness to Obama appearing in jeans.

• Her Approach to Portraiture ([27:11]–[28:56])

  • Leibovitz says, “I don’t believe that it’s the photographer’s job to put their subjects at ease... I just don’t think I do anything special. I really do come from... reportage. It was personal reportage.” – Leibovitz [27:11]
  • Influenced by Henri Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank, she values capturing the narrative within the frame.

• Defining Images and Changing Meaning Over Time ([30:03]–[34:40])

  • Discusses the legendary John Lennon and Yoko Ono photo, taken just before Lennon’s assassination, and how its meaning evolved: “It turns from a story of love to a goodbye... that’s interesting about photography how over time the stories sort of change in the imagery.” – Leibovitz [30:34]
  • Recalls the atmosphere at the shoot and how the image became a symbol.

• On Subjectivity and Artistic Limits ([34:40]–[37:08])

  • Leibovitz prefers seeing the best in people, saying, “That’s why I’m a bad journalist... I do have a hard time when I have to photograph someone I don’t necessarily like.”
  • Shares the story behind her artful shoot with Timothée Chalamet in the Nevada desert, using Michael Heiser’s city as backdrop.

Notable Quotes

• “How we are seen, no doubt changes how we see ourselves. This is for us... Previously, we were just ignored.” – Gloria Steinem (read by Leibovitz) [22:34]
• “I think as photographers, though, and as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody. You really should.” – Leibovitz [34:50]

3. Cracks in Trump’s MAGA Movement with Will Sommer

[38:24]–[53:12]

Overview

Michelle Martin interviews Will Sommer, senior reporter at The Bulwark, about widening fractures behind the scenes of Donald Trump’s MAGA coalition, emphasizing pivotal moments and personalities fueling the division.

Key Discussion Points

• Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Public Split with Trump ([38:51]–[41:16])

  • Greene resigns from Congress and breaks with Trump, especially over Trump’s decision not to release the Jeffrey Epstein files.
  • Sommer: “I think this is personal... but also I think she is sort of a hardcore Trump supporter who’s become disappointed with the direction of the administration.” – Sommer [39:46]

• Roots and Nature of the Division ([41:16]–[43:35])

  • Greene’s stance comes from a belief that Trump has “abandoned the populist roots of the MAGA movement.”
  • Her criticism of Trump includes breakaway foreign policy views and disappointment over unfulfilled promises.

• The Role of Extremists and Young Right-Wing Voices ([43:37]–[45:04])

  • Sommer points to figures such as Nick Fuentes gaining a bigger following among the Republican grassroots and right-wing media—often with overt extremist views.
  • “He’s a guy who... has managed really from out of nowhere to build this following among young, particularly young men...” – Sommer [43:37]

• Fault Lines: Israel, Economics, and Immigration ([45:04]–[46:10])

  • New divisions focus on US-Israel policy, economic policy, and immigration, with more voices skeptical of traditional party stances.

• The Assassination of Charlie Kirk and Its Aftermath ([46:10]–[47:24])

  • The killing of right-wing influencer Charlie Kirk “created a leadership vacuum and... chaos.” Rival factions and conspiracy theories have proliferated.
  • “Before his death, he was sort of a uniting figure who tied a lot of factions together. And without him, I think that’s producing a lot of this enmity.” – Sommer [47:24]

• The Epstein Files and Republican Disillusionment ([47:24]–[49:08])

  • Epstein files carried symbolic weight for MAGA supporters, who believed their release would expose elite Democratic wrongdoing.
  • Trump’s reversal on their release incited widespread disillusionment among his base.

• Erosion of Trump’s Approval and Policy Frustration ([49:08]–[51:41])

  • Discontent rises over inflation, healthcare cuts, and what many see as returning to pre-Trump Republican austerity.
  • “That was the one thing Trump was really supposed to deliver on... So I think that’s why there’s this discontent.” – Sommer [49:08]
  • Trump calling affordability a “Democrat hoax” does little to assuage unrest.

• Media’s Shifting Relationship with Trump ([51:41]–[53:12])

  • Major right-wing voices and personalities are positioning for a post-Trump future—and expressing more open criticism.
  • “There is this sense that Trump... risk being excommunicated [for criticism] ... But more and more we’re seeing people... saying critical things about Trump...” – Sommer [52:19]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “There are people in the grassroots and I think there are people in right-wing media as well who are unhappy with how the second term is going and are sort of looking towards 2028...” – Sommer [41:16]
• “Nick Fuentes... thinks Hitler is really cool. I mean, how is that gonna play with the average voter?” – Sommer [44:38]
• “[Charlie Kirk] was sort of a uniting figure who tied a lot of factions together. And without him, I think that’s producing a lot of this enmity.” – Sommer [47:24]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:15] Ukraine diplomacy, Russian military situation, Bosnia precedents – Amanpour interviews Gen. Rupert Smith
• [19:08] Annie Leibovitz on women’s representation and “Women, Volume Two”
• [38:24] Will Sommer on Trump’s MAGA schisms

Notes on Tone

• Amanpour and her guests maintain a serious, incisive, analytical tone, mixing firsthand reflection with policy critique and human stories.
• Leibovitz’s segment is conversational, introspective, and personal, often self-deprecating yet confident.
• Sommer delivers an informed, matter-of-fact analysis but avoids sensationalism—grounding points in reporting and observation.

For listeners seeking clarity on the Ukraine war’s diplomatic prospects, women’s ongoing quest for representation, or an insider’s view on the MAGA right’s internal crises, this episode offers a rich, nuanced discussion with expert voices.