Former NATO Commander Rupert Smith

Summary

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Amanpour Podcast – December 5, 2025

Main Theme:
This episode features in-depth interviews on critical current affairs: Christiane Amanpour speaks with General Sir Rupert Smith, former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, about lessons from Bosnia for the ongoing war in Ukraine; hosts a conversation with celebrated photographer Annie Leibovitz on her new book "Women, Volume Two"; and Michelle Martin interviews Will Sommer of The Bulwark on the political fractures developing within Donald Trump’s MAGA movement.

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1. Ukraine, Russia, and Lessons from Bosnia with Gen. Sir Rupert Smith

[01:15]–[17:55]

Overview

Amanpour discusses with General Sir Rupert Smith the apparent diplomatic stalemate in Ukraine, Russia’s continued aggression, and historic parallels with the Bosnian conflict, drawing insights on the necessary conditions for ending such wars.

Key Discussion Points

• Diplomatic Failure & Russian Aggression ([01:15]–[03:30])

  • US efforts to negotiate with Putin on Ukraine have floundered.
  • Moscow uses negotiation delays to keep up pressure militarily, notably in eastern Donbas.
  • Parallels to Bosnia’s war—NATO’s eventual military intervention led to peace.

• Bosnia and the Need for Force in Diplomacy ([03:30]–[06:30])

  • Gen. Smith recounts the trigger moment for Western intervention: the Srebrenica massacre.
  • “Srebrenica was the massacre that shocked the world and shocked the West, I think, out of its apathy and made it more willing to use force...” – Amanpour [03:44].
  • Smith describes assembling the Rapid Reaction Force, concluding that “air power alone is [not] capable of doing what everyone wanted it to.” – Smith [04:04]
  • The shelling of the Sarajevo marketplace served as the pretext to finally act.

• Military Breakthrough and Ceasefire ([06:00]–[07:08])

  • With NATO air and armored ground forces, the siege of Sarajevo was broken.
  • Smith emphasizes, “you have to stop fighting. And that’s a ceasefire... whether the ceasefire is permanent or not is another matter.” – Smith [07:29]

• Transition from Ceasefire to Diplomacy ([06:30]–[07:53])

  • Tactical victories produced a ceasefire, enabling diplomatic negotiations at Dayton (1995).
  • Technical, logistical groundwork—restoring utilities—was vital to consolidating a ceasefire.

• Relevance to Ukraine & The Problem of Security Guarantees ([07:53]–[09:00])

  • Smith says, “They’ve got to be a lot better than those in the Budapest memorandum,” referencing Ukraine’s failed security assurances in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons.
  • Any new guarantees must be “copper bottomed” and genuinely deterrent.

• On the Prospects for Ukraine ([09:09]–[09:53])

  • “The Ukraine is not beat this lot. They're going to go on fighting. They do not want to be in Russia.” – Smith [09:13]
  • Predicts continued resistance and fighting as seasons and circumstances change: “I don’t see the fighting stopping.” – Smith [09:53]

• Russia’s Weakness and Information War ([10:24]–[12:19])

  • Despite its army, Russia has failed to achieve decisive victory: “...it still isn’t doing very well in any measure over the last four years. It’s fighting an extremely expensive, in terms of manpower, at least, attritional war...” – Smith [10:35]
  • Russia’s “information operation... is as important, if not more important, in your overarching strategy.” – Smith [11:26]
  • The common depiction of Ukraine as corrupt, Smith notes, is inherited from Soviet structures and weaponized by Russia.

• Corruption, Civic Change, and Putin’s Obsession ([12:26]–[14:56])

  • Smith traces Ukraine’s inherited governing model from the Soviet Union and the evolution of civil society-led change, such as the Maidan.
  • “All the progress of Ukraine becoming a state is driven from the street... This is the civil society changing their state, not the administration or the government.” – Smith [13:19]
  • Putin fears a “prosperous state on its southern border... like Poland,” and each major Russian intervention has been triggered by prospects of Ukraine moving into the EU.

• Russian Disinformation and the West’s Weak Response ([15:03]–[16:15])

  • “We, the Collective West ... are doing very little to counter this [Russian info operation]... let’s start countering this Russian information operation and stop believing [Putin’s] winning.” – Smith [16:15]

• Implications if Ukraine Falls ([16:26]–[17:55])

  • Smith warns, “If Ukraine falls to Russia, then we, the Europeans... have just doubled the length of the border with Russia.”
  • The experienced, well-armed Ukrainian military could become a threat or a boon, depending on which side they ultimately align with: “After Russia, the next biggest army in Europe... Do we want that on the Russian side or on our side?” – Smith [17:09]

Memorable Quotes

• “The event is Srebrenica and the atrocities that followed on from the fall of the... of the safe area.” – Gen. Smith [03:33]
• “All the progress of Ukraine becoming a state is driven from the street, it’s the Orange Revolution, the Maidan... This is the civil society changing their state...” – Gen. Smith [13:19]
• “If Ukraine falls to Russia, then we... have just doubled the length of the border with Russia.” – Gen. Smith [16:44]

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2. Art, Power, and Women's Stories – Annie Leibovitz on "Women, Volume Two"

[19:08]–[37:27]

Overview

Amanpour’s conversation with Annie Leibovitz explores her evolution as a photographer, the intent behind her new book, and the lasting impact of her portraits of iconic women (and men).

Key Discussion Points

• The Power of Women's Stories ([20:10]–[21:22])

  • Leibovitz emphasizes the need for more stories about women: “I never, ever want to separate women from men. You know, men have their stories. We don’t have enough stories as women. We need to see ourselves.” – Leibovitz [20:10]
  • Discusses the different ways women historically have been photographed—beauty vs. character.

• Portraits and Personal Narratives ([21:22]–[23:09])

  • Story of novelist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie feeling self-conscious about being photographed: “There was no dismissiveness, no judgment.” – Amanpour recounting Adichie [21:14]
  • Leibovitz prompts Gloria Steinem to write personally in her essay: “How we are seen, no doubt changes how we see ourselves... But being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored.” – Steinem via Leibovitz [22:35]

• Cultural Regression and Gender Politics ([23:09]–[24:51])

  • Conversation turns to modern cultural challenges: “With the rollback of DEI, with actually this administration removing women’s contributions from the Pentagon, from everywhere...” – Amanpour [23:09]
  • Leibovitz contrasts the atmosphere in the US with that in London, sensing “oppression” regarding women's rights.

• On Self-Doubt and Creative Process ([24:05]–[24:45])

  • Steinem describes Leibovitz as “the tallest and most authoritative, unsure person that I’ve ever seen.” Leibovitz reflects, “...stepping back and not being sure, which falls into all those stories about failing is important.” – Leibovitz [24:27]
  • “The book is really for our daughters.” – Leibovitz [24:47]

• Iconic Portraits and Artistic Choices ([24:57]–[26:57])

  • Discusses Rihanna’s maternity portraits: “She took that Demi Moore picture and blew it out of the water...” – Leibovitz [25:05]
  • New Michelle Obama portrait described as “phenomenal”; Leibovitz shares behind-the-scenes stories and openness to Obama appearing in jeans.

• Her Approach to Portraiture ([27:11]–[28:56])

  • Leibovitz says, “I don’t believe that it’s the photographer’s job to put their subjects at ease... I just don’t think I do anything special. I really do come from... reportage. It was personal reportage.” – Leibovitz [27:11]
  • Influenced by Henri Cartier-Bresson and Robert Frank, she values capturing the narrative within the frame.

• Defining Images and Changing Meaning Over Time ([30:03]–[34:40])

  • Discusses the legendary John Lennon and Yoko Ono photo, taken just before Lennon’s assassination, and how its meaning evolved: “It turns from a story of love to a goodbye... that’s interesting about photography how over time the stories sort of change in the imagery.” – Leibovitz [30:34]
  • Recalls the atmosphere at the shoot and how the image became a symbol.

• On Subjectivity and Artistic Limits ([34:40]–[37:08])

  • Leibovitz prefers seeing the best in people, saying, “That’s why I’m a bad journalist... I do have a hard time when I have to photograph someone I don’t necessarily like.”
  • Shares the story behind her artful shoot with Timothée Chalamet in the Nevada desert, using Michael Heiser’s city as backdrop.

Notable Quotes

• “How we are seen, no doubt changes how we see ourselves. This is for us... Previously, we were just ignored.” – Gloria Steinem (read by Leibovitz) [22:34]
• “I think as photographers, though, and as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody. You really should.” – Leibovitz [34:50]

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3. Cracks in Trump’s MAGA Movement with Will Sommer

[38:24]–[53:12]

Overview

Michelle Martin interviews Will Sommer, senior reporter at The Bulwark, about widening fractures behind the scenes of Donald Trump’s MAGA coalition, emphasizing pivotal moments and personalities fueling the division.

Key Discussion Points

• Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Public Split with Trump ([38:51]–[41:16])

  • Greene resigns from Congress and breaks with Trump, especially over Trump’s decision not to release the Jeffrey Epstein files.
  • Sommer: “I think this is personal... but also I think she is sort of a hardcore Trump supporter who’s become disappointed with the direction of the administration.” – Sommer [39:46]

• Roots and Nature of the Division ([41:16]–[43:35])

  • Greene’s stance comes from a belief that Trump has “abandoned the populist roots of the MAGA movement.”
  • Her criticism of Trump includes breakaway foreign policy views and disappointment over unfulfilled promises.

• The Role of Extremists and Young Right-Wing Voices ([43:37]–[45:04])

  • Sommer points to figures such as Nick Fuentes gaining a bigger following among the Republican grassroots and right-wing media—often with overt extremist views.
  • “He’s a guy who... has managed really from out of nowhere to build this following among young, particularly young men...” – Sommer [43:37]

• Fault Lines: Israel, Economics, and Immigration ([45:04]–[46:10])

  • New divisions focus on US-Israel policy, economic policy, and immigration, with more voices skeptical of traditional party stances.

• The Assassination of Charlie Kirk and Its Aftermath ([46:10]–[47:24])

  • The killing of right-wing influencer Charlie Kirk “created a leadership vacuum and... chaos.” Rival factions and conspiracy theories have proliferated.
  • “Before his death, he was sort of a uniting figure who tied a lot of factions together. And without him, I think that’s producing a lot of this enmity.” – Sommer [47:24]

• The Epstein Files and Republican Disillusionment ([47:24]–[49:08])

  • Epstein files carried symbolic weight for MAGA supporters, who believed their release would expose elite Democratic wrongdoing.
  • Trump’s reversal on their release incited widespread disillusionment among his base.

• Erosion of Trump’s Approval and Policy Frustration ([49:08]–[51:41])

  • Discontent rises over inflation, healthcare cuts, and what many see as returning to pre-Trump Republican austerity.
  • “That was the one thing Trump was really supposed to deliver on... So I think that’s why there’s this discontent.” – Sommer [49:08]
  • Trump calling affordability a “Democrat hoax” does little to assuage unrest.

• Media’s Shifting Relationship with Trump ([51:41]–[53:12])

  • Major right-wing voices and personalities are positioning for a post-Trump future—and expressing more open criticism.
  • “There is this sense that Trump... risk being excommunicated [for criticism] ... But more and more we’re seeing people... saying critical things about Trump...” – Sommer [52:19]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “There are people in the grassroots and I think there are people in right-wing media as well who are unhappy with how the second term is going and are sort of looking towards 2028...” – Sommer [41:16]
• “Nick Fuentes... thinks Hitler is really cool. I mean, how is that gonna play with the average voter?” – Sommer [44:38]
• “[Charlie Kirk] was sort of a uniting figure who tied a lot of factions together. And without him, I think that’s producing a lot of this enmity.” – Sommer [47:24]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:15] Ukraine diplomacy, Russian military situation, Bosnia precedents – Amanpour interviews Gen. Rupert Smith
• [19:08] Annie Leibovitz on women’s representation and “Women, Volume Two”
• [38:24] Will Sommer on Trump’s MAGA schisms

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Notes on Tone

• Amanpour and her guests maintain a serious, incisive, analytical tone, mixing firsthand reflection with policy critique and human stories.
• Leibovitz’s segment is conversational, introspective, and personal, often self-deprecating yet confident.
• Sommer delivers an informed, matter-of-fact analysis but avoids sensationalism—grounding points in reporting and observation.

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For listeners seeking clarity on the Ukraine war’s diplomatic prospects, women’s ongoing quest for representation, or an insider’s view on the MAGA right’s internal crises, this episode offers a rich, nuanced discussion with expert voices.

Transcript

[Christiana Amanpour]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[General Rupert Smith]

Ukraine is not beat. This lot are going to go on fighting. They do not want to be in Russia.

[Christiana Amanpour]

As the latest U.S. effort to bring Putin to the negotiating table flounders, I ask former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander General Rupert Smith what's next for Ukraine and for its allies.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Plus, I never, ever want to separate women from men. Men have their stories. We don't have enough stories.

[Christiana Amanpour]

The legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz tells me about capturing female power and her latest project, Women, Volume two.

[Will Sommer]

Then I think there are people in the grassroots and I think there are people in right wing media as well who are unhappy with how the second term is going.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Senior reporter at the Bull Walk, Will Summer tells Michelle Martin about splits in Donald Trump's MAGA base.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiana Monport. In London, a week of intensive US Diplomacy has wrapped up with no Ukraine deal in sight. An escalating threat, threats from Moscow. Ukrainian officials were also back in Miami trying to get their deal approved by the US this comes after President Trump's top negotiators left a five hour sit down at the Kremlin without a breakthrough on territory, security guarantees or a ceasefire. That is all the important points. Moscow, though, has called the meeting useful and constructive. But at the same time, it is using these delays to keep pummeling Ukrainian cities and taking more territory, including Pokrovsk. Now, Putin says he plans to conquer all of Ukraine's eastern Donbas using any means necessary, including military force, something he has not been able to manage in the last 12 years since first invading. With Moscow dragging its heels on a ceasefire now, where can Ukraine and its allies turn for a path forward? Well, 30 years ago, the Dayton Agreement brought an end to the savage war in Bosnia, where, like Putin's dream of a greater Russia, now Serbia wanted more land and more control. Not an independent Bosnia. It ended after finally, NATO ramped up military pressure against the Serbs, which led to a ceasefire and then tough negotiations with the US and its allies that brought the Balkan warring factions to the table. Rupert Smith was commander of the United nations peacekeeping forces at the end of that conflict. Through his four decades in the military, he also led troops in the first Gulf War and in Northern Ireland. Experiences he describes in his book the Utility of Force. And he joined me here in London to map a way out of the Russian war on Ukraine. General Sir Rupert Smith, welcome to our program. Okay, so this has gone on for four years in Ukraine. Now this latest iteration of the full scale invasion. We're nowhere closer to peace, and we'll talk about that in a minute. Bosnia went on for around that length of time as well. You write and you talk about a essentially transformative moment, a moment that meant, you know, the west could no longer look away and just sort of sit there while Rome was burning. Describe that.

[General Rupert Smith]

Well, the event is Sebrenticia and the atrocities.

That followed on from the fall of the. Of the safe area.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Srebrenica was the massacre that shocked the world and shocked the West, I think, out of its apathy and made it more willing to use force to stop this war. Finally.

This would be the classic sort of diplomacy backed by the threat of and the use of force. So tell me what you did to sort of quote, unquote, unlock that key.

[General Rupert Smith]

You will recall that I am building up a force at the time called the rapid Reaction force, because I didn't see that air power alone is capable of doing what everyone wanted it to. But the result was that at about a month after Sebronica, I would have this force in place. It was an armored force. I had armored vehicles, I had guns. And now I was going to have NATO air power in support. So I now had a. I could make a fist at that point. The trigger for.

Me to use force.

Which was the Serbs shelling the marketplace in Sarajevo, an incident that had happened earlier, about a year before.

Became, if you like, the reason that I could now act.

So I acted first. We got some of my fingers out of the fire in the case of pulling people out of the way, and then I acted. And.

At that stage, I communicate with Richard Holbrooke and say, I'm just about to do this. Do you want to. This is going to have an impact on what you do. Do you want me, you know, asked to communicate? And he said, no, I don't. It's nothing to do with me. Get on with it. So that's what I did. I chose to break the siege of Sarajevo. That seemed to me to be the most useful strategic act I could do with this force. So that's what we did.

[Christiana Amanpour]

That means attacking in some form the forces of the Bosnian Serbs who are run saraybnya.

[General Rupert Smith]

And then with a mixture of artillery and air power and my armored forces, we broke the siege of Sarajevo.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So I remember that. Obviously I was there, and it was a big, big deal that then led to the enabling of Richard Holbrooke's further diplomacy and then bringing all the parties together at Dayton, which we've just celebrated the 30 years since the Dayton Accords.

[General Rupert Smith]

Well you did you miss out a point. It led to a ceasefire. Yes, sorry, ceasefire at night takes that long because for very good reasons, the.

Bosniaks, particularly those inside Sarajevo, weren't going to cease fire until the gas was back on, the electricity was back on and the water was flowing again. Because you recall that's all part of the siege and that took quite a lot of engineering effort to do by the UN and so forth.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So there was a ceasefire and then there was the negotiations and then eventually the end to the war. There is no talk of a ceasefire right now. They just keep talking about a plan, a peace plan. So from your perspective, how do you think that, I mean must there be a ceasefire before anything else? And how do we get there?

[General Rupert Smith]

Well, you have to stop fighting.

And that's a ceasefire.

Whether the ceasefire is permanent or not is another matter. And whether it leads to a resolution or a peace agreement or whatever we want to call it, a state of peace is another matter altogether. But there has to be a ceasefire.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, so far Putin has rejected any idea of any monitoring force. So there's that. And then the other thing is Ukraine has said yes, yes, yes to this.

[Will Sommer]

That and the other.

[Christiana Amanpour]

But we can't do anything without security guarantees. What do security guarantees look like for.

[Annie Leibovitz]

You in your mindset?

[General Rupert Smith]

They've got to be a lot better than those in like the Budapest memorandum. Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons that it had inherited in 91 from Soviet Union. Soviet Union. So that was, that's the. And this largely because Russia guarantor had invaded that negated it was said, that memorandum said that nobody in Kyiv is going to buy that and certainly the man on the street isn't going to buy it. So you're going to have to produce some pretty copper bottomed guarantees. Now I do not know what Kiev would be satisfied with, but it's got to be a sufficient guarantee to deter any further invasions.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So if you were to guess or to not guess, to use your educated, experienced, you know, view of this, what do you think is going to happen in the next year?

[General Rupert Smith]

What do I think now? I mean.

I was in Kiev last month. The Ukraine is not beat this lot. They're going to go on fighting. They do not want to be in Russia.

So I don't see this ending, nor would I want them to end. So no, the fighting will go on.

The ground will freeze, the skies will clear and the military situation will be.

Different again to the one at the moment.

But I Don't see the fighting stopping.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What do you think? And I'm not going to make this personal, but certainly from the United States, they keep telling Ukraine, you have no cards to play, you're on the defensive. If you just keep going, you're going to create World War iii. You know, various things they keep throwing at Ukraine and they seem to believe Russia's narrative that it can win. Obviously Putin believes he can win. He's telling Trump that he can, whoever he's talking to, that he can win. What do you think Russia's chances are on the battlefield since it's been 12 years, not 412 years.

[General Rupert Smith]

Sure, sure. Well, I mean, you're answering my question. They're not doing very well for an enormous army.

With, you know, lots of kit and all the rest of it. It's learning very fast on the job, but it still isn't doing very well in any measure over the last four years. It's fighting an extremely expensive, in terms of manpower, at least.

Attritional war along the fronts, costing them considerably. Now they've got lots of manpower and they're fairly careless about their losses. But nevertheless, there's a cost to all of this.

And to take your point about what Russia's saying, of course they're going to say that. And even more important is to understand that in the Russian strategic logic.

The information operation that surrounds your actual fighting is as important, if not more important, in your overarching strategy. So throughout this story, and we can go back into the 90s, Russia has been conducting a very deep, prolonged information operation to deny that Ukraine is even a state, that they should even be considered a state because they're so corrupt and so on and so forth. Ukraine inherited everything from Russia. So if Ukraine is corrupt in the year 2000, so is Russia.

But it's being played as Ukraine all the time, not Russia, etc. Etc.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Okay, so this obviously has an impact on what people think about Ukraine. So let me ask you then, because there's a huge corruption investigation right now. Zelenskyy's right hand man, Andrey Yermak, has had to resign. His house was searched. How much does that weaken Ukraine?

[General Rupert Smith]

First of all, the, as I say, this is inherited from Russia. All those people of the Russian state on whatever the day was in 1991 are told you are Ukrainian, but otherwise it was the same lot doing the same things in the same way. And that is the government apparatus of Ukraine.

And it's a straight Russian model.

And all the progress of Ukraine becoming a state is driven from the street, it's the Orange Revolution, the meidan to take them. This is the civil society changing their state, not the administration or the government. And Russia seeks to control the state through its fingers in the old. Or in the administration, the old Russian administration that the Ukrainians inherited. And you can see that in the story of the politics.

By the time the Ukrainian street slowly makes this more and more unique to Ukraine, they gain advantages. The Rada changes.

[Christiana Amanpour]

That's parliament.

[General Rupert Smith]

Yeah, yeah. The laws change and so on to the point that Russia is losing control. So it invades in 14 and seeks to get control and they don't. So you have another set of pressures being applied. And then ultimately, in 22, I say ultimately in the story so far, they invade again because they don't have control. And each state, each case of this is triggered when Ukraine looks as though they want to join the eu, not NATO, the European Union.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What triggered the Maidan?

[General Rupert Smith]

Yes, correct. But it goes back further.

And Putin is terrified, I think, of a prosperous state on its southern border, because he only has to look at Poland and he can see that. What happens if, when Poland joins the EU in much the same time frame, there is a prosperous European state on his western border that used to be.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Under his purview in the Warsaw Pack. Correct.

[General Rupert Smith]

Correct. So that's the story there. Now, to answer your question, this information operation is pernicious and runs throughout Europe and America.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Russia's correct. Saying that Ukraine is just endemically corrupt.

[General Rupert Smith]

Correct. Amongst other things. And we, the Collective west, as the Russian call us, are doing very little to counter this. And that's the sort of line I would like to see us doing to better support Ukraine. Be its quartermaster, by all means, keep supplying it with weapons and so forth. But let's start.

Countering this Russian information operation and stop believing. Winning. No, you're not. I can see you're not, given what.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You'Re saying and how much Ukraine has shown that it can fight and it's fighting Europe's war for it right now. Right. Do you think. Do you have any doubt that if Ukraine falls to Russia, Russia, Putin will be satisfied and will stop there?

[General Rupert Smith]

No, I don't think he'd stop there.

And here's why. If Ukraine falls to Russia, then we, the Europeans, whether you're carrying the NATO flag or the European flag or both, have just doubled the length of the border with Russia. So we know we don't have a very good.

Amount of forces and so forth at the moment. Well, if you double the length of the border, you've doubled your problem. We don't want to do that. Secondly, a large number of men and materiel in Ukraine that we have helped provide and so forth. We have supported them while they've been fighting, have learned a great deal. They are, in effect, after Russia, the next biggest army in Europe, and after Russia, the most experienced. Do we want that on the Russian side or on our side?

That's how I would think about this prospect.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, that's a very good place to end. General Rupert Smith, thank you very much.

Still to come, I talk with celebrated photographer Annie Leibovitz about Capturing the World's Female Trailblazers, Volume 2. That's just after this break.

[Will Sommer]

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper.

[Annie Leibovitz]

On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. Nick Cave is a legendary Australian singer, songwriter and author. His 15 year old son Arthur died.

[Will Sommer]

10 years ago in a fall off.

[Annie Leibovitz]

A cliff in Brighton, England.

[General Rupert Smith]

It's a condition of being for me. Grief.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Nick has authored a number of books. His latest is Faith, Hope and a Conversational Memoir written with Sean o'.

[General Rupert Smith]

Hagan. We are all creatures of loss. We are all suffering in our own.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Ways, talking grief, we building community. New episodes of All There Is come out Tuesday nights. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiana Amanpour]

We turn now to a legendary photographer known for her intimate portraits of some of the world's best known personalities. Annie Leibovitz amassed hundreds of front covers in her work for Rolling Stone magazine, Vanity Fair and Vogue. And now, 25 years after the publication of her celebrated women collection, she's back with volume two. From writers, actors and musicians to CEOs, athletes and politicians, Gloria Steinem, Venus Williams, Michelle Obama, and even me. Full disclosure, the original idea came from her partner, the late Susan Sontag. But it was recalling the former first lady Hillary Clinton's famous rallying cry for women in Beijing, 1995, that brought Leibovitz to volume two. Women's rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights, clinton had declared. I met up with Annie Leibovitz on her swing through London to discuss this impressive body of work. Do you consider yourself as somebody who champions women?

[Annie Leibovitz]

Well, I champion us. I mean, I never, ever want to separate women from men. You know, men have their stories. We don't have enough stories as women. We need to see ourselves. And when we put out that first book in 1999, it was, it was a surprise to me.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Big and just to what you just said, women don't have as many stories men have Plenty stories, but in the first one Sontag wrote, portraits of women featured their beauty, portraits of men, their character. So Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, one of the great, great novelists and writers of our time, you have her there. You photographed her several times.

[Will Sommer]

Yes.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I mean, you took the picture of her as quite long distance. She's sort of in. In the. In the background of the picture almost.

[Annie Leibovitz]

There's a whole library in the library.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Yes. Yes. I think that's phenomenal. I want to write what she's written for you. The first time Annie photographed me, more than 10 years ago at my home, she sensed my discomfort right away and knew that it was not merely about my general awkwardness with being photographed. It was specifically about my belly, which was newly post.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Possibly.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Although I would probably still have worried, even if it was. Annie's sanguine reaction was a relief. There was no dismissiveness, no judgment.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Well, you just don't. You know, it's so funny. I think she really sort of tied herself on to what Susan Sontag was writing about when Susan did talk a lot about the gays and how women are looked at and men aren't looked at that way. But I think Chimamanda didn't have the opportunity to read Gloria Steinem's because, you know, Gloria wrote hers. She sent it over, and it was kind of this very nice essay on me, you know, And I called her up and I said, gloria, look, thank you very much. That's great. You know, we just really want to know what the hell is going on right now. Where are we? Write about yourself. Please write about yourself. And she has written about herself, and she's a good writer, and she took it to task. And I've been rereading that essay just to sort of have a front in front of me because I'm just a photographer.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Christian, you're not just a photographer.

[Annie Leibovitz]

No, I. I am.

[Christiana Amanpour]

No, you've shaped the way we see our cultural. I'm space.

[Michelle Martin]

I'm not.

[Annie Leibovitz]

I'm not.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You're not just a photographer.

[Annie Leibovitz]

No, but.

[Christiana Amanpour]

But here's the thing. Gloria, in 2006.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Gloria, I have. I.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Wait.

[Annie Leibovitz]

You have to wait.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I want to read this.

[Annie Leibovitz]

This is where. No, I'm gonna read it. No, you're. No, I'm gonna read it.

[Michelle Martin]

Wait.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Okay. How we are seen, no doubt changes how we see ourselves. This is for us. I know many people now feel our career is going backwards, but when you have lived a long life, which I am lucky to have done, you have a context of compared to what? Yes, we survived McCarthy. We survived Nixon. We can survive what feels like regression. A perspective that maybe only my age peers and I can have. But being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I think it's really important, actually, for this moment, with the rollback of dei, with actually this administration removing women's contributions from the Pentagon, from everywhere.

[Annie Leibovitz]

You know, it is so oppressed back in the United States, back in America, you can cut it with a knife, you walk down the street. It's not the same as in London. Feels, you know, like people are, like, normal.

[Christiana Amanpour]

And I do think, actually, it's important to have Gloria's perspective there. And she said about you that didn't finish it. She said, you are the tallest and most authoritative, unsure person that I've ever seen. Why do you think that is? I mean, you just said, oh, I'm only a photographer. Why do you. You have been so awarded, rewarded, changed the way we look at public figures and non public figures. I mean, you just. You're, like, right up there in the pantheon of our visual history. What makes you unsure?

[Annie Leibovitz]

I don't know.

[Christiana Amanpour]

All right, we'll move on.

[Annie Leibovitz]

No, no, no. You know, someone.

Just wrote about. Wrote about it was writing about me for the introduction to.

The show in Spain, and.

He saw it as a strength.

And it's the first time I looked at it and said, you know, that's interesting, you know, to see it as questioning something, stepping back and not being sure, which falls into all those stories about failing is important. Yeah, you know, it is. And actually, you know, as a mother, you know that.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Yeah, I do. I know all of that.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Yeah.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I'm talking about as a mother.

[Annie Leibovitz]

And also, the book is really for our daughters.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, that's really interesting because I love what Chimamanda said about how you, you know, no judgment postpartum.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Yeah.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What I love is the Rihanna picture. Oh, yeah, because that harks back to your famous Demi Moore picture. Why did you do that? She.

[Annie Leibovitz]

She is. She's just phenomenal. I mean, she's so smart, so brilliant, such. And she loves fashion. And, you know, she took that Demi Moore picture and blew it out of the water. I mean, she just, you know, she just, you know. You know, she. You know, and so there she is pregnant with her first. First baby that was done for a fashion shoot for. For Vogue, you know, in Paris. And then the second baby, she's at the Super Bowl. And the third baby, she's announcing it, you know, at the Met gala. So she's just out there, you know, she's just being dragged behind a car. I mean, I just think she's amazing.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What about Michelle Obama? I just thought that picture. Oh, that picture was phenomenal. She's always been an icon, but this is quite something. How different to the portrait you made for the. The COVID of Vogue, for example?

[Michelle Martin]

No, no, no.

[Annie Leibovitz]

We shot many, many times. And the very last one, she was just. It was so painful. I could tell that she was. Couldn't wait to get out of there on some level. And so I asked her. She was one of the first. I mean, I didn't do too many new shoots for this second.

[Christiana Amanpour]

But this is a new one, the Obama.

[Annie Leibovitz]

This is brand new.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Yeah.

[Annie Leibovitz]

And I. And I asked her if she would sit and, you know, she agreed right away. And then we got a call from her office saying, can Michelle Obama wear jeans? And I said, sure, you know.

And then she showed up. But what's interesting about the little clip that she puts on on her little, you know, Instagram is, is that you see her preparing to get into that moment, and they actually have her, you know, putting her head back like that. And honestly, you know, I've said this before, but her assistant was standing next to me and she said, there's my first lady.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So I also thought it interesting, given. Given all these portraits you've said in a master class video, you don't believe that it's the photographer's job to put their subjects at ease. Tell me about that, because you must have.

[Annie Leibovitz]

I think it goes along with everything else. I just don't think I do anything.

Special. I mean, I really come. I really do come from. I mean, I thought it was journalism. It was never journalism. It was, you know, reportage. It was personal reportage. I. I learned Cartier, Bresson, Robert Frank. The camera was the cat. The camera was. Yeah.

[Christiana Amanpour]

When you came for photojournalism or reportage.

[Annie Leibovitz]

During the siege, it wasn't all reportage. You know, we did. I did. I felt a little. I felt I couldn't compete with the great war photographers that were there, you know, risking their lives and, you know, it was unbelievable. But, no, I know I. I enjoy reportage. I don't think I can go back completely. You know, I mean, I love what I'm doing with the portraits. I was taught at the San Francisco Art Institute. I was. Went into the painting major, took a night class of photography. Much more exciting. Very, you know, move, you know, you move fast. You know, you're a young person. You know, it's painting was, you know, I was a bad painter and I started working for Rolling Stone before I graduated. But I learned Cartier Bresson and Robert Frank, you know, were my idols. And we learned to frame within a 35 millimeter frame. So I, you know, you. You learn to take. Take the whole frame and. And use everything you have there. It's so interesting being alive this long and being able to work in photography and having the opportunity to try so many different ways to take pictures. In the very first book are a set of pictures that to me, were transformable. I mean, to me.

In so many ways, they're the Showgirls, which are two pictures. And it totally broke up this whole idea that you're not going to get it in one frame necessarily. And also, I'm a huge fan of the photo story. Tina Brown asked me to work on an issue on.

Women. And I thought about. I had made a small list and I thought about Showgirls in Las Vegas. And I went out to photograph them, met them at night in their costumes, and then they came into the studio the next day. This woman came in. This is really true. This woman, Sue McMahon came in. I said, can I help you? I couldn't recognize her because she came in out of her costume and out of her makeup. And I was just sort of. I mean, I still don't know what to make of it, quite honestly. And so I photographed her as herself and then photographed her in those clothes. I went back to New York, I said, susan, let's do the book. It was really. There was something that was.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What clicked for you.

[Michelle Martin]

Clicked.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Oh, yeah.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Such a pun.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Listen, I have to ask you, because it is such an extraordinary picture and it does define a lot of your oeuvre, and that is the John and Yoko.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Yeah.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You know, tell me about that. Because he was naked, she wasn't. And of course, it was taken a few hours before he was assassinated.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Yes.

Still an emotional image to me, because it changes with time. I mean, especially like after he died.

After he was killed, you know, and then some time pass, you look at it and you see really is. It turns from a story of love to a goodbye, you know, so that's interesting about photography how over time the stories sort of change.

In the imagery. In my youth starting to work for Rolling Stone, I had talked John Winter into letting me go and photograph John Lennon in New York when he was doing the interviews. And I flew Youth Fair and stayed with friends. And John and Yoko could have been nicer. They were very warm. They were just. It turned out Yoko told me later that they were so, so surprised that Jan picked an unknown photographer. This, you know, to come and take their picture. That's why they were so, so nice. But it really set. Set the bar for me as far as, you know, how people should treat each other during these shoots, no matter who. Who they were, because I, of course, admired them so much. So it was over 10 years and. And we were. Rolling Stone was doing a cover.

I was told before I went out to shoot that day that they really just wanted a picture of John by himself.

No one really liked Yoko that much. There was still that kind of myth that she broke up the Beatles. So.

I went over to see them at the Dakota and.

I say to John, hey, they really just want me to shoot you. You know, it's like he said, well, we're gonna have to do something really, really good. We're gonna have to do something special. And I was thinking, you know, on their other Double Fantasy album, they're kissing and it's like romance was not that alive in 1980. And it was beautiful to see them kissing each other. And so I imagined them in an embrace and they just, you know, I put them on the floor.

In their apartment. And John, you know, I imagine they both nude, which. Which really wasn't so unusual for both of them since, you know, two virgins, they had posed nude before. Anyway, at the last moment, Yoko didn't really want to take her clothes off. And I was a little perturbed. I mean, she. But I. I didn't know it would be what it. What it was. But she kept her clothes on and John's nude and he's clinging to her. And. And.

In those days before you shot film, you would shoot a Polaroid. So we pulled the Polaroid. And it's usually the Polaroid was always the picture. And then you would go take pictures and, you know, it was never as good as the Polaroid. But we pulled the Polaroid and John looked at it and he said, that's. That's really my relationship. That's really. He was very happy with it. And so we took several more frames.

And then, you know, I went away and I got a call from Jan that night and he said that, you know, John was. Was shot. So sorry. So we. So I went over to the hospital and waited to hear a final, you know, result that he. That he. That he had been killed. But I went into, you know, to Rolling Stone's offices a day or two later, and they were mocking up a single picture of his. Of his head. And, you know, and I went into Jan's office, I said, jan, I promised John that they would both be on the COVID So he did. He changed it. He changed it to both of them on the COVID And it wouldn't have.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Been half as good had it not been the two of them, right?

[Annie Leibovitz]

No, no, because I think all the. All of our sights and energy in that shoot went to doing that photograph. And. And it didn't take long. I mean, it. It wasn't belabored. We just did a few frames. And.

So I think I've always been on the side of the subject, you know, I mean, I'm. I'm like, that's why I'm a bad journalist.

I like doing that. You know, I like seeing the best of people if I can. And I also. I do have a hard time when I have to photograph someone I don't necessarily like. You know, it's not. I'm not really good at that, you know, But I think as photographers, though, and as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody. You really should.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Timothy Chalamet, why is that caused such a hullabaloo?

[Annie Leibovitz]

I don't know. The one on the. I had breakfast with Ann and I said, anna Winter. Anna Winter, you know, and she said, I love the COVID I love the pictures. I don't read anything. We're just going for it. Timothee Chalamet was amazing.

[Michelle Martin]

He.

[Annie Leibovitz]

He. You know, when we talked before we started working, he said, I'll do anything you want to do. Let's do it. And I thought he looked so intelligent and. And so interesting in this kind of. And I. And I chose the city.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So we're talking about this art city in the Nevada desert, right?

[Annie Leibovitz]

Michael Heiser's. And it was. Honestly, it was the hardest thing I've ever done because Michael said, no, I don't want anyone wearing Gucci shoes in front of something I've worked 50 years on. And I spent some time. I really felt like in our times right now, the city sort of exemplified a lot. And Michael worked on this for 50 years. And so he was like, no. So.

I worked on it and.

It was hard because I was in the middle. I was trying to.

Not hurt the city or Michael Heiser's work. And I was trying to be. To work with Timothy and come up with something that was really different, you know, and interesting. And he was totally. He was amazing. Because it was like 110 degrees. No, there wasn't a cloud in the sky. I mean, it was really, really hard. But I love what we finally did. I'm proud of the work, actually. I'm really proud of the work. It's so different. And I love Anna for just doing something totally, you know, I mean, I.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I out of this world. Out of this world.

[Annie Leibovitz]

And, you know, Timothy was supposed to be the little prince, which I couldn't really tell him he was the little prince. And I let all the fashion go in on the COVID And the inside was kind of very low key, if not no fashion. It was just, it was really kind of an experiment, you know.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Annie, thank you very much. Coming up after the break, can Donald Trump paper over the cracks appearing in his MAGA movement? Michelle Martin asks a senior reporter at the Bulwark about the rifts reshaping Trump's base.

Life on the Mars farm, it's anything.

[Annie Leibovitz]

But quiet for me and Dave.

[Michelle Martin]

Every day is a lot of moving parts.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Five kids do not go in the house.

[Christiana Amanpour]

A working farm and a renovation business that never stops.

[Will Sommer]

We've been pushed to the limit.

[Christiana Amanpour]

If you build it, they will come.

[Will Sommer]

Oh, my gosh, it's so beautiful.

[Annie Leibovitz]

Just another day in this crazy, beautiful.

[Michelle Martin]

Life we call ours.

[General Rupert Smith]

Fixer to fabulous season premiered December 2nd.

[Annie Leibovitz]

At 8 on HGTV.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Now to Washington, where the full release of the Epstein series files looms, revealing ever growing rifts in Donald Trump's MAGA base. The president's friendship with the convicted sex offender is causing frustrations to boil over. Will Sommer is a senior reporter at the Bulwark who has spent years following the MAGA movement, and he speaks to Michelle Martin about what he's been observing.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Christiane. Will Summer, thank you so much for joining us.

[Will Sommer]

Thanks for having me.

[Michelle Martin]

You've been writing extensively, I mean, for years, in fact, about different strands of the conservative movement, the MAGA movement, as we call it. This has been a very pivotal couple of weeks and months. I think the signature, the signature issue that I think a lot of people have focused on is a member of Congress named Marjorie Taylor Greene. Very conservative member of Congress, some might say a fringe member, but a person who's moved into leadership because of her close association with Trump, has had a very public breakup with him to the point where she is resigning from Congress come January. How do you read that? What happened here? And first of all, what happened with Marjorie Taylor Greene and the president? But the second and bigger question obviously is does this speak to something else? Is this unique to those two and their relationship, or does this speak to some bigger issue in the MAGA movement?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing to understand here is that Marjorie Taylor Greene was initially sort of like the ideal of a hardcore.

We know she was a big believer in the QAnon conspiracy theory, which basically posits Trump as sort of like a messianic figure coming to save the world. And she gets to Congress, she's very supportive of Trump. But in recent months, she has been more critical of Trump, saying, for example, over the government shutdown, she was critical of Republican efforts to end Obamacare subsidies. And I think especially their big break came on Trump's attempts to withhold the Jeffrey Epstein files. And so I think in some ways, I think this is personal. She was reportedly told not to run for Senate or to run for governor in Georgia. And so I think she had some anger there with the White House. But also I think she is sort of a hardcore Trump supporter who's become disappointed with the direction of the administration.

[Michelle Martin]

Is it mainly about the Epstein files or are there other things?

[Will Sommer]

I mean, I think it's primarily about the Epstein files and this broader sense that Marjorie Taylor Greene has of almost being too Trumpist for Trump himself, or this idea that she feels that he's abandoned the populist roots of the MAGA movement or what it was supposed to be. I mean, she's very isolationist. She said she's America first. And she's been critical of Trump, for example, for supporting Israel for bombing Iran. And so she almost seems to be saying, you know, this is not what I voted for, what I got into politics to support. And so that's why I'm going to leave, particularly now that Trump is calling her a traitor.

[Michelle Martin]

So some people have looked at this and called it the beginnings of a kind of a fracturing. Some analysts have even called it kind of a civil war.

[Will Sommer]

You don't think that Marjorie Taylor Greene is really emblematic because she is such a high profile Republican figure and someone a lot of people know. And look, I think she is potentially a warning sign for the White House that you have these people who should be devoted Republicans. I mean, these are not moderates, certainly in Marjorie Taylor Greene's case, by any stretch. But she's saying, you know, I'm getting fed up with Trump with this second term. I don't want anything to do with it. And I think there are a lot of people like that. I think there are people in the grassroots and I think there are people in right wing media as well who are unhappy with how the second term is going and are sort of looking towards 2028, trying to position themselves and realizing that sort of the Trump era of the Republican Party is not going to last forever.

[Michelle Martin]

Martin Taylor Greene has said some really interesting things in various interviews that she's done. I mean, she says that she regrets her role and sort of the toxicity of this political moment. Then, as to the question of her denouncing sort of US Involvement in Israel in the Gaza war, she's one of the few, if not the only Republican lawmaker that I can think of who criticized Israel's actions in Gaza and calling it genocide. And when she was asked about that, she said, well, I just learned about it, I just heard about it. And that is why she was moved to make these comments. Do you think this is kind of what has often been a kind of trajectory for people when they serve in these positions and are exposed to more information than they had previously, or is there something beyond it that you can identify that really speaks to a bigger issue with voters in general?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I think Marjorie Taylor Greene, personally, I think she appears to be someone who is a really hardcore Trump supporter and conservative and gets to Congress and finds out maybe that things aren't that simple and not that necessarily. I think she's becoming a liberal or a moderate. I mean, she's trying to sort of tack to this more sort of.

Optic friendly saying, I regret my toxic political behavior of the past. But I do think she's finding out that things are a lot more complicated. But I think also she is symbolic of a broader trend in the Republican Party, a sort of dissatisfaction with Trump.

[Michelle Martin]

And how do you see that? Where do you see that?

[Will Sommer]

Sure. I mean, you can look all over. I mean, you can look at the rise of white nationalist podcaster Nick Fuentes, who's a guy who marched in Charlottesville, is now in his 20s and has managed really from out of nowhere to build this following among young, particularly young men in the Republican Party. Very explicitly racist and anti Jewish. He's a guy who a few years ago, I mean, was seen as anathema even within the far fringes of the Republican Party. They wanted nothing to do with him. He couldn't come into conservative conferences like cpac. But now we see people like Tucker Carlson, who obviously is a massive voice on the right, having friendly interviews with him. We see fights at the Heritage foundation, which is a major Republican think tank, over how they should react to Nick Fuentes. And so you can see figures like this kind of getting inside the party and stirring up trouble in a way that and sort of growing their own bases in a way that exists outside of Trumpism and I think poses some problems for the party in the future. I mean, for one example, I mean, Nick Fuentes, among other things, had said he thinks Hitler is really cool. I mean, how is that gonna play with the average voter if this is someone who starts palling around with lawmakers or appearing in more media outlets?

[Michelle Martin]

Is that the main fault line that you see, these voices who are pretty much whose through line is this extremist form of racism and anti Semitism? Is that Leela fault line you see, or are there others?

[Will Sommer]

I mean, I think there are a few. I mean, the anti Semitism and the racism is one aspect. I think that's also linked to more, I think more mainstream questions about how supportive Republicans should be of Israel. And obviously, I think that line kind of blurs often to the advantage of figures like Nick Fuentes. In the past, the idea of Republicans being critical of Israel was unheard of. But I think we're hearing more voices like that from people like Fuentes. But also Tucker Carlson, even the Heritage foundation said we have to look out for America's interests first. On the other hand, I think there are also divides on economic issues, questions of immigration, topics like H1B visas, bringing in foreign workers. I mean, this is something that the tech companies that have aligned themselves with Trump really want to continue. Whereas you're seeing a lot of disaffected young white men, I would say, for the most part in America who are saying these foreign workers are stealing our jobs. So we're starting to see these new, I would say, almost novel policy issues emerge in the Republican Party, and Trump is either unwilling or sort of uninterested in doing anything about it.

[Michelle Martin]

You know, another significant event in recent months was the assassination of Charlie Kirk. What is your sense of the impact of what happened to Charlie Kirk?

[Will Sommer]

I think Charlie Kirk's murder had, you know, on one hand, I think it was really sort of a uniting moment for the right. I mean, we saw that they had the big memorial service and, you know, figures, very varied figures, you know, people who are often typically at odds with each other were there. On the other hand, I think it sort of created a leadership vacuum and it created this sort of moment of chaos. And I mean, to be frank, a lot of these right wing media personalities, they're very fractious and they're very willing to sort of take advantage of an opportunity. So you have people like former Charlie Kirk friend Candace Owens promoting conspiracy theories about his Murders suggesting maybe Israel or even France did it and that somehow his organization was involved in it and betrayed him. You have people like Nick Fuentes, who was sort of Charlie Kirk's archenemy, sort of trying to take that spot. And so I think a lot of the chaos and the divisiveness we're seeing within the right right now can also be traced back to Charlie Kirk, to the murder, because he was sort of, before his death, he was sort of a uniting figure who tied a lot of factions together. And without him, I think that's producing a lot of this enmity.

[Michelle Martin]

Talk a little bit more, if you would, about the Epstein files. Why does that have such a hold on the public?

[Will Sommer]

I mean, I think for people outside of sort of the right wing media bubble, it can be hard to understand why Epstein in particular has had such resonance. Because we look at all the other potential scandals that Trump has participated in or been accused of involvement with in the way that the base doesn't really care about that. But I think Epstein matters because for so many years this was sort of a Republican coded scandal, or this was an issue Republicans were told by people like J.D. vance, Cash Patel, a lot of people in right wing media, they were told, this is an important issue, we've gotta get these files, we've gotta get this client list. And you know, there was this assumption that all these top Democrats would be exposed as pedophiles. On the other hand, in July, when Trump suddenly said, oh, nevermind, we're moving on from this, we're not releasing the files, and then in fact started to insult people who were still interested in the story, many of them his own supporters. I think that's when the trouble started. Because suddenly this u turn that there had been no sort of narrative groundwork laid for Republicans was really jarring. And so that's why I think we're seeing people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace in Congress who supported the efforts to release the files and ultimately why it passed nearly unanimously in the House because people realized this is something voters care about.

[Michelle Martin]

What else do they care about? I mean, the fact is, the President' sas we are speaking now, the President's approval ratings are at a historic low, but they've always been low among Democrats. Increasingly, independents are not pleased. But the real erosion, I mean, has to come from his own sort of base. So what else is it that the base is disappointed in?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, I think going back to the first Trump administration in the 2016 campaign, I mean, Republican voters have made this deal where basically they were told, you may not like Trump's scandals, you may not like his personal behavior, but he's a businessman, the economy is gonna be great. And so suddenly, and in particular in the 2024 race, so much was made by Republicans about inflation. But now inflation is continuing, most prices are still high. Add in issues like cutting Obamacare subsidies, another pocketbook issue, and I think people who were told the most important thing is the economy don't care about, let's say, threats to American democracy that Trump poses, all of these myriad other issues, they're saying, well, geez, even the economy isn't good. That was the one thing Trump was really supposed to deliver on. And so I think that's why there's this discontent. I mean, I think also there's this kind of this MAGA populism. There's this idea that represented by people like Marjorie Taylor Greene or Steve Bannon, that really you don't wanna do this kind of old school Republican austerity cuts to entitlement programs, in this case like the Obamacare subsidies, because that alienates people from issues like if you really want to carry out deportations, for example, you're going to alienate people if you're focused on cutting the deficit. And yet we're seeing, I think the Trump administration do a lot of these classic moves just to do Republican tax cuts to accomplish these almost pre Trump fiscal agenda items. And I think that's angering a lot of Trump's more the people he brought to the party who were not traditional Republicans.

[Michelle Martin]

And what about the President's own statements? For example, he had a cabinet meeting this week where he called the issue of affordability the Democrat hoax. That it's kind of a made up issue. Does that, you know, how does that land? How does something like that land?

[Will Sommer]

I mean, I think it's starting to have real echoes of the Biden administration. Struggles with inflation. A lot of talk about, well, the numbers aren't as bad as you think. JD Vance said, give us some more time. And you know, I think as we saw with the Biden administration, that's a really tough position to be in. You know, it's difficult to bring these prices down. And particularly when it's something that people have experience with every day when going to the grocery store, seeing the prices go up. I think it's difficult for any administration, and particularly one that does not seem that politically adept at the moment, I think is kind of struggling, is facing restless Republicans in Congress, as we saw with the Epstein discharge petition So I think inflation is sort of. It's probably the biggest political pressure the White House faces, but it's far from the only one.

[Michelle Martin]

Before we let you go, is the conservative.

MAGA media sphere as united as.

It was or seems to be around Trump. Do you see any fissures with them?

[Will Sommer]

I think we're seeing right wing media outlets and particularly this sort of new crop of social media personalities on the right who have managed to amass tens of millions of followers. People like Nick Fuentes, Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, maybe Megyn Kelly. We're seeing them sort of seek a little distance from the administration.

There is this sense that Trump, I mean, in the past, Trump really kind of ruled the party with an iron fist. And anyone who's critical of Trump, you risk being excommunicated and basically having her career destroyed. But more and more we're seeing people, even people like Laura Loomer, who's very close to Trump and whose career really relies on her access to the White House, saying critical things about Trump taking a jet from Qatar, for example. And so I think there's this sense of perhaps the midterms aren't gonna go very well and then Trump will really be a lame duck and then you know, who's next and there's gonna be, I think, kind of a scrabbling for among these factions, whether it's J.D. vance or Marco Rubio or I'm sure, a dozen other candidates we can't even think of. Now, I think there's gonna be this, this attempt in right wing media to position yourself for what comes after Trump. And I think for a lot of people, that's gonna mean getting more critical of Trump himself.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, Summer, thank you so much.

[Will Sommer]

Thanks for having me.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Important to keep an eye on all of that. That is it for us for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest epis. It airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

[General Rupert Smith]

Tab.

[Will Sommer]

I Got News for your Ears. The podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black. I like that. I want the United States to state murder is bad unequivocally, but I would like it better if we then followed that up with not murdering people. Once the boat is incapacitated and people are just hanging out in the water a la Jack and Rose from Titanic, trying to find some space on that plank of wood, you don't then circle and assassinate them.

[General Rupert Smith]

Have I Got News for your Ears Releases new episodes every Wednesday.

[Will Sommer]

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