Former Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk

Summary

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Amanpour – Former Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN Podcasts)
Date: October 2, 2025
Episode Theme:
A sweeping conversation covering the ongoing war in Ukraine, Western support and internal resilience, geopolitics, and democracy with former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk. The episode also spotlights the struggles and courage of Afghan women’s footballers, climate activism with Jane Fonda and Mela Chiponda, nuclear proliferation risks, and a tribute to Jane Goodall.

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Ukraine at War: The View from Arseniy Yatsenyuk

Russian Progress on the Front Lines

• [02:48] Amanpour: Opens with a question on whether there is a slowdown in Russian military advances.
• [02:56] Yatsenyuk: Confirms Russia has had only "incremental gains" and that "the pace has decreased severely."
  • Emphasizes the war is not recent but part of an 11-year conflict, dating back to Crimea's annexation (2014).
  • Reminds listeners: “Armed to the teeth, Russia didn’t manage to take over Ukraine...with 140 million population, didn’t manage to take over Ukraine of 40 million people.”
  • Claims Russian forces have suffered approximately 2.1 million dead and injured Ukrainian figures, stating Ukraine has "severely degraded Russian land forces by half."
• [04:04] Yatsenyuk: “More than 74% of Ukrainians still believe in the military victory of Ukraine over Russia...We can win, but it all depends on the political will of our allies.”

Notable Quote

Yatsenyuk [03:20]: “He [Putin] said to the entire world that it’s not his troops without insignia. So he lied as always in the bare face. So everything that is happening in the last 11 years is just astonishing.”

Shifts in Western Support

• [04:45] Amanpour: Notes a rhetorical change from President Trump, now advocating military support to retake Crimea and occupied territories.
• [05:31] Yatsenyuk: Welcomes Trump’s "verbal U-turn," saying it's an “important sign” that the former US president “has realized that designated war criminal Putin tried to play him,” but stresses “words matter only ... if they are supported by actions.”

Military Aid & Sanctions

• [06:30] Amanpour: Details on potential intelligence sharing and long-range missile deliveries.
• [07:04] Yatsenyuk: Highlights Ukraine’s attacks have caused “severe damage,” with “Russians lost around 20% of their oil refinery capacities.” Urges for delivery of Tomahawks, Taurus missiles, and notes these would be a “game changer.”
• [07:53] Amanpour & Yatsenyuk: Discuss legal and moral grounds for seizing $300 billion in frozen Russian assets to support Ukraine.

Notable Quote

Yatsenyuk [08:05]: “Russia has violated international law. Russia has committed an act of aggression...only one way to make Russia accountable.”

Western Resolve & Harari’s Analysis

• [08:44] Amanpour: Cites Yuval Noah Harari, argues the West’s psychological resolve is the “weakest link.”
• [09:35] Yatsenyuk: “We will never surrender. We will never.”
• [09:40] Yatsenyuk: Reiterates need for “strong and bold actions”—naming supplemental security packages, financial aid, secondary sanctions, confiscation of Russian assets, and leverage against China and India supporting Russia.

Notable Quote

Yatsenyuk [10:55]: "China is accomplice. China provides a lifeline to Russia. China provides a lifeline to North Korea."

Russia's War Aims & Ukraine’s Future

• [11:33] Yatsenyuk: Disputes financial pain for Russia, calling proposed budget cuts “nothing.” Putin’s aims remain maximalist: “take over entire Ukraine and undermine the European Union and NATO.”
• [12:15] Amanpour: Notes long timeline for potential Russian conquest; Zelenskyy hints at stepping down post-war.
• [12:52] Yatsenyuk: Declares national unity behind Zelenskyy, but ultimate importance is preserving democracy: “Democracy will always prevail in Ukraine.”

Ukraine's Western Trajectory

• [13:25] Amanpour & Yatsenyuk: Brief discussion of Maidan legacy.
• [13:40] Yatsenyuk: Affirms commitment: “We will survive. We will join the EU, we will join NATO and we will defend Europe and the free world. Just help us.”

Advocacy and International Communication

• [14:05] Yatsenyuk: “I am talking to everyone. I am right now on an advocacy mission...France, Sweden, UK, Washington, Brussels, everywhere. We need to get everyone on board in order to win this fight.”
  • Frames the war as authoritarianism versus democracy and "against our liberties and against our life."
  • Final, confident statement: “We will win this war.”

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Afghan Women’s Footballers: Defiance in Exile

[15:18] - [19:35]

Restored Connections & Sporting Defiance

• After internet shutdowns, Amanpour shifts to a report on Afghan women’s footballers exiled in England, fighting for recognition as a national team under FIFA, even as Taliban authorities try to erase them.
  • Players like Sozan and Elaha express pride and longing for family left behind.
  • Khalida Popil, founder of the original Afghan women’s side (2007), describes four years of struggle for FIFA’s recognition: “We have been knocking every closed door to get FIFA’s attention...and we have really faced silence for four years.” [19:01]
  • FIFA backs a new ‘Afghan Women’s Refugee Team’ set for an international tournament, acknowledging but not directly addressing the debate about “refugee” versus “national” status.

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Climate Crisis & Activism: Jane Fonda & Mela Chiponda

[19:35] - [35:11]

Climate Despair & Action

• [19:35] Amanpour: Quotes Joan Baez via Al Gore: “the antidote to despair is action.”
• [20:47] Jane Fonda: On polluter skepticism, particularly from Trump: “Well, we just have to talk to him. He just needs some education. He doesn’t understand.”
• [21:17] Fonda: Describes shift from protest to electoral activism: “If you can’t change the people, change the people.”
  • Set up the Jane Fonda Climate PAC to elect climate champions, particularly in key states.

Notable Quotes

Jane Fonda [22:22]: “We’re facing two existential crises, climate and democracy. And we can’t have a stable climate unless we have a stable democracy.”

Global South, Gender & Energy Poverty

• [22:58] Mela Chiponda: SHINE Collab bridges gender, climate, and energy: “This crisis is not a single issue thing that we can say, we just fighting climate only.”
• [24:04] Chiponda: “Africa only contributes to less than 4% of greenhouse gas emissions. But our argument still is that fossil fuels are harmful...in terms of the health of ecosystems and democracy.”
• [27:27] Chiponda: “Women’s labor is taken for granted...the money intended for climate ends up just up there with governments and not with the people.”
• [28:10] Fonda: "Only 2% of all funding for climate crisis is given to women led groups."

Empowering Women – Funding Equity

• Fonda and Chiponda advocate sending climate relief directly to women: “No middlemen, there’s no trickle down, straight to the women on the ground.” [28:15]
• Highlight first recipients of the Jane Fonda Gender and Climate Justice Fund: Ecuador, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Senegal, Indonesia. [29:13]

Democracy, Free Speech, and Counterculture

• [30:36] Amanpour: Discusses threats to democracy and free speech; links climate activism and democracy advocacy.
• [31:11] Fonda: Cites the need to organize within “pillars of support” ("military, the media, art, etc.") to safeguard democracy.
• [32:28] Fonda: Urges against the silencing of protest groups via "slap suits" (e.g., Greenpeace).

Personal Reflections

• [33:16] - [34:12] Jane Fonda shares memories of Robert Redford, their collaborations, and personal loss after his passing.
• [34:29] Fonda: At age 88, fears missing her craft but remains committed to activism.

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Nuclear Threats & Non-Proliferation

[36:23] - [51:34]

New Era of Nuclear Proliferation

• [36:30] - [38:10] Megan O’Sullivan and Ernest Moniz explain a major bipartisan report on nuclear threats post-Ukraine and as US global reliability is questioned.
• [39:58] O’Sullivan: The task force strongly supports “extended deterrence”—the US guarantee to allies not to develop their own nuclear weapons.
• Erosion of faith in US promises (e.g., Ukraine and Libya gave up nukes and suffered invasion).
• [45:40] O’Sullivan: “Countries that give up nuclear weapons or don’t have nuclear weapons are ones that are subject to aggression.”

Notable Quotes

Moniz [44:47]: “President Putin really crossed the line there and did something unprecedented. The idea here is, it would be great to put that genie back in the bottle.”

• [49:05] O’Sullivan & Moniz: Affirm New START treaty extension would be a positive step, but caution remains regarding Russia’s intentions.

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Tribute to Jane Goodall

[51:42] - [53:05]

• Remembrance of Jane Goodall (d. at 91) and her revolutionary work on chimpanzees as tool users, defying scientific convention.
  • Goodall’s reflection on her clashes with scientific authorities: “When it comes to animal personality, mind and emotion, they're wrong...that was my dog.” [52:41-52:51]

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Memorable Quotes & Key Timestamps

• Yatsenyuk [03:20]: “Everything that is happening in the last 11 years is just astonishing.”
• Yatsenyuk [05:31]: "...President Trump has realized that designated war criminal Putin tried to play him."
• Yatsenyuk [09:35]: "We will never surrender. We will never."
• Fonda [22:22]: “We can’t have a stable climate unless we have a stable democracy.”
• Chiponda [24:04]: “Africa only contributes to less than 4% of greenhouse gas emissions.”
• Fonda [28:10]: "Only 2% of all funding for climate crisis is given to women led groups."
• Moniz [44:47]: “President Putin really crossed the line there and did something unprecedented.”
• Goodall [52:51]: "When it comes to animal personality, mind and emotion, they're wrong...that was my dog."

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Conclusion

This episode of Amanpour is a rich, urgent survey of democracy under threat, women’s resilience, and global crises. From the steely optimism of Ukraine’s Yatsenyuk calling for action, not words, from the West (“We will win this war”), to the ground-level activism of Jane Fonda and Mela Chiponda for gendered climate justice, the show continually returns to themes of courage, resolve, and collective action. Nuclear risks and the legacy of Jane Goodall round out an episode that underscores not only peril, but hope, in global affairs.

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Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

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Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Ukraine under constant bombardment as Putin tries to break the people's spirit. But are his troops in trouble on the front lines? I'm joined by the former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyu. Then another blow for Afghanistan's women after the Internet was shut down for days. After a special report on the exiled girls fighting for freedom through football. And the actor and the activist, legendary Hollywood star Jane Fonda joins me along with human rights defender Mela Chiponda on their new climate fund. And Fonda's fond memories of Robert Redford. Plus the nuclear threat. Amid changing geopolitical landscapes, the co chairs of a new task force make another case for stopping the spread of these most deadly weapons. And finally, a hero for our planet and the natural world. A tribute to the great Jane Goodall. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's been a deadly few months for the people of Ukraine under massive aerial attacks. Since the summer, civilian casualties have reached a three year high. Last week Russia bombed the country continuously for over 12 hours. President Zelensky called it vile. Vladimir Putin is trying to break the nation's spirit, likely because he's not actually winning on the front lines. His soldiers advances there have slowed by almost half in September. Today President Zelenskyy is in Copenhagen meeting European leaders as they pledge to again boost support for his country's defence. Here with me now is Arseny Yatsenyu who served twice as Ukraine's prime minister and he was a leading figure during the pro Western 2014 Maidan revolution. Welcome to the program.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Such a pleasure.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Christian, are we right? Is there a noticeable slowdown in what Russia is achieving on the front lines?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Yeah, absolutely. Russia is gaining an incremental gains but the pace has decreased severely.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you know, how do you account for that?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Let me remind you what's really happening. This war has been going on not for three and a half years. It's been 11 years since designated war criminal Putin waged the war against Ukraine.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When he captured Crimea, illegally annexed Crimea.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Then he sent his troops to the eastern Ukraine. Then he said to the entire world that it's not his troops without insignia. So he light as always in the bare face. So everything that is happening in the last 11 years is just astonishing. Armed to the teeth. Russia didn't manage to take over Ukraine. Russia with the nukes, with 140 million population, didn't manage to take over Ukraine of 40 million people. So Russian forces have lost around 2,1 million in dead and injured Ukrainians.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's just in these last three years of the full scale invasion or since 22. Yeah.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Ukrainians severely degraded Russian land forces by half. NATO has expanded and we as Ukrainians show our resilience. I've got the latest polls and you know What? More than 74% of Ukrainians still believe in the military victory of Ukraine over Russia. And we are sitting under the never ending shellings, under the barrage of Russian missiles. So the thing is that whether we can win, yes, we can, Kristian. But it all depends on the political will of our allies because we have guts, we have strengths. I mean, the Ukrainian people and we have shown it to the entire world. Now it's time for action.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so at the un, the UNGA this past week in New York, there seemed to be a shift certainly from President Trump who if you remember earlier this year, shortly after his inauguration, hosted President Zelenskyy and essentially told him he had no cards to play and needed to, you know, sue for peace one way or the other. Now fast forward, he's saying, with the right help, you can win. You can even win back Crimea and the other territories. And he seems to be talking about boosting Ukraine's military potential as well, along with European and other NATO allies. Do you see that as an actual shift and how do you account for it? I mean, do you see it's real? Is it more than just words?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Look, I really welcome, strongly welcome, this kind of verbal U turn of President Trump. It is important because it's an important sign to everyone that President Trump has realized that designated war criminal Putin tried to play him. He wasn't just stepping in on Trump. He wanted to humiliate President Trump. Because Trump in Anchorage expected to get some kind of concessions out of Putin. In the end, what he got, he got a next wave of never ending shelling of Ukraine. He got a very strong stance against the Western world. He got an incursion of drones into the NATO airspace. He got Russian fighter jets in Estonia. He got a new wave of cyber attacks against NATO allies. And my gut feeling is that President Trump has realized that something is wrong with that. So this kind of verbal U turn is strongly welcomed. But you know that matters. Words matter only in one case if they are supported by actions.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Right. So there are reports that they plan to, you know, restart or boost intelligence sharing with Kyiv to hit oil refineries in Russia. Also weighing deliveries of Tomahawks and Barracudas, Tomahawks or cruise missiles and other American made ground and air launched missiles. They have a range of up to 500 miles. What do you see as the military posture of Ukraine? Now apparently this is having a huge effect on Russia's energy capacity and its installations.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Absolutely. Due to Ukrainian attacks, Russians lost around 20% of their oil refinery capacities. So they are facing right now a deficit of gasoline on their stations. So these kind of actions that have been undertaken by Ukraine cause a severe damage to Russia. So if Trump administration decides make a very bold decision to provide an additional security supplemental for Ukraine to green light Tomahawks or another type of long range missiles. And if the German Chancellor Merks is to deliver his promise, he has made this promise on the campaign trail saying that he's ready to deliver Taurus missiles to Ukraine. This would be a game changer. So we desperately need it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And he's also said, Merz told the FT that Europe should in fact start taking those frozen assets of Russia's and actually help Ukraine defend itself with them.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Absolutely. Look, let me remind you that the European Union, the UK and the United States seized around $30 billion of Russian sovereign assets. 30 or 300, sorry, 300 billion dol. So the thing is that there are kind of different deliberations over the legality how to confiscate this asset. Well, with all due respect, Russia has violated an international law. Russia has committed an act of aggression. Russia is committing crimes against humanity. And there is only one way to make Russia accountable.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, it's interesting because Yuval Noah Harari, the famous public intellectual and he's been to Ukraine, he's written a lot about it over the last several years. He's the author of Sapiens. As you know, he wrote in the FT this weekend and he essentially said in 2025 the weakest link in Ukraine's defenses still lies in the minds of his Western friends. Russian strategy seeks to outflank the Ukrainian position by attacking the will of the Americans and Europeans. So I'm wondering a whether you think, you know, that's now, you know, strengthening, stiffening all the things we've just talked about. And also what Mertz is saying about the funds and all the rest of it is basically showing that they don't expect Ukraine to just give up. Do you think that's is that legitimate analysis?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

We will never surrender. We will never.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But do you see that there's a stiffening of resolve?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

There is a kind of stiffening of resolve. But here is the thing. Putin closely watches and follows only actions, not statements, not summits, not different types of coalitions. And that's what we are looking for, strong and bold actions. Because you know, if we get these kind of talk shops or hot air released from different high profile politicians, it doesn't work. So clear cut and stroke actions are needed. The first one is new security supplemental from the US Congress. The second one, secondary sanctions both imposed by the United States and the European Union. The third one, financial support for Ukraine because we are, we've got the budget gap of around 150 billion in the forthcoming three years. The fourth one is we need urgently to confiscate Russian assets. This is the source how to offset all these losses. And the fifth and the fourth, the fifth one is China and India. So we need to prosecute the pressure actually on China and to get along.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Somehow with India for their support of Russia.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

You're talking about China is accomplice. China provides a lifeline to Russia. China provides a lifeline to North Korea. North Korea deployed its troops against Ukraine. So it's a new kind of axis of evil under the umbrella made in China.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now interestingly, again, in terms of these shifting sort of sands, we read that I think the Russians, Putin is having to cut the military expenditure also. They seem to be feeling some financial pain right now.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Here is the thing, Christian, I have slightly different breathing. So he presented a draft budget few days ago. And if you look into this budget, so the military expenditures are practically flat. It's just 5% decrease. It's nothing. Okay? It is nothing. So it means that he has shown that he is ready to prosecute the war further. He hasn't changed his ultimate goal. And his ultimate goal is to take over an entire Ukraine and undermine the European Union and NATO. And look at the another expenditures that he has appropriated for the next year, so called information campaign. It's not an information, it is disinformation campaign. So both of these budgetary expenditures clearly shows that he hasn't changed his mind.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So maximalist demand's still on the table. Analysts in the Western NATO nations have said at least some that it will take maybe even five years for Putin just to take the donbas the entire Donbas at this current rate. So he's in it for a long, long time. And in the meantime, Zelenskyy seems to get more, more support. He's also told reporters that, you know, he plans basically probably to, he's ready to step down after the war ends. What does that signal to you? Is that an important statement to say now in the middle of a war?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Look, right now the nation has rallied around the flag. He is the commander in chief. And, you know, it is important to support this kind of institution. So, and I wish the time will come when President Zelenskyy is to decide whether to run for the second term or to skip. And you know why? Because it means that Ukraine is to get durable ceasefire at least, or fair and just peace. We need to win the war and to save the country. And democracy will always prevail in Ukraine.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I was going to ask you that as the last question because we introduced you as one of the main, you know, figures during the Maidan, and that was about democracy and it was about sovereign, is about moving towards the west. The EU accession, do you think that will survive?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Absolutely. Definitely. We will survive. We will join the eu, we will join NATO and we will defend Europe and the free world. Just help us.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Got it, Prime Minister, one more last, very, very quick one. Who do you talk to to get these points across and are they making headway or are people getting tired?

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Look, I am talking to everyone. I am right now on an advocacy mission. France, Sweden, uk, Washington, Brussels, everywhere. We have to talk to both politicians and ordinary people. We need to get everyone on board in order to win this fight. This is the war of autocrats and dictators against the democracy. This is the war against the free world, against our liberties and against our life. We will win this war.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, thank you so much, indeed. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for joining us.

So stay with CNN. We'll be right back after this break.

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. I'm worried about this generation in Face.

[Amanda Davis]

To Face communication because it's not an.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Easy thing to do.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Susan Greenfield is the author behind Mind How Digital Technologies Are Leaving Their Mark on Our Brains.

[Amanda Davis]

We discuss outsourcing our lives to digital.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Devices and how that impacts our human connections.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now wherever.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You get your podcasts.

In Afghanistan, cell phone and Internet service has been restored days after it was abruptly shut down, causing nationwide chaos and cutting off an education lifeline for teenage girls and women who are banned from going to school. Afghan women and girls continue to put up a brave act of resistance whenever they can in the face of brutal oppression by the Taliban, including in the world of sports, as correspondent Amanda Davis found out when she met a group of exiled players here in England. So Congratulations for the 23 players.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

7Am on a Friday morning in the the northwest of England. A milestone moment after a sleepless night awake with nerves. Sozan 7, Najma, Elaha and Zainab, all named as part of the squad for the first FIFA backed Afghan women's refugee team, said to be reunited with fellow Afghan players scattered in exile around the world to represent their country at last.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Obviously just an amazing moment for all of us. I can't wait to share with my family. They're probably gonna see me from tv, but the thing is how sad it is that I don't have them by.

My side to celebrate them like other.

My teammates who are gonna share with their family.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

In 2021, Ilaha was 17 and had earned her first call up for the Afghan Women's national team as a goalkeeper. She never got to play. For her and her teammates, their role as footballers and what that meant in the eyes of the Taliban meant they were forced to flee their homes and country. Elaha's father was ill so her parents were unable to travel. She and her brother had to leave without them. I feel very honored being your passenger after you just passed your test.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thanks.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

Am I safe?

[Walter Isaacson]

You are.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

You guys should trust me for everything they've lost. There are so many ways this group live in defiance of the rules the Taliban have imposed on women in Afghanistan. Learning to drive, gaining an education, securing jobs and playing football. The only thing they've not been able to do is go from playing their football here in Doncaster to representing their country wearing the shirt of Afghanistan on the international stage.

[Christiane Amanpour]

FIFA has said that Afghanistan's women national.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Team title should come from the Afghanistan's.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Football federation, which we do not accept and it is running by Taliban now and we do not recognize Taliban. We want the FIFA to recognize us as an international woman Afghan and we are tired of calling get called refugee. We've been called refugee for four years.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

Now because the Taliban believe women playing sport is against Sharia law and have refused to acknowledge the women's team. Their ability to play internationally has depended on the intervention of world football's governing body, FIFA. It has taken until now for them to create the Afghan Women's refugee team set to take part in a four team tournament in Dubai in October. None of this would have been possible without Khalida Popil, the first ever captain of the original Afghan women's side, founded in 2007.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We have been screaming out loud, we have been knocking every closed door to.

Get FIFA's attention, to listen to our.

Voices, and we have really faced silence for four years. These girls lost their time.

[Sozan (Afghan Women's Refugee Team Player)]

FIFA did not respond to our questions about the desire of some of the players to be referred to as the national team. It did, however, stress in a statement that it's financing facilities and personnel in what it called a significant, significant and landmark step forward in giving Afghan players the international platform and recognition to which they aspire.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Amanda Davis, shining an important spotlight there now. Former US Vice President Al Gore recently recalled that the famous Joan Baez line that the antidote to despair is action, and so the antidote to climate despair is climate action. And our next guest embodies that spirit. She's one of the longest acts in showbiz and one of America's biggest, best known activist. She's now upping her cause to save the planet. We're of course, talking about the legendary Jane Fonda. We recently sat down in New York, joined by Zimbabwean activist Mela Chiponda. They're both working on the Jane Fonda Gender and Climate Justice Fund for Women, which raises money for women who often bear the brunt of the climate crisis. Jane Fonda, Mela Chiponda, welcome to our program. Great to talk to you, actually, about the climate, because we're in New York at Unger and Pratt. President Trump has delivered a broadside against climate, calling it, I think, green energy, a giant con job, a big scam, and telling all countries who implement climate change mitigation that they will fail. Your reaction to that, first and foremost?

Well, we just have to talk to him. He just needs some education. He doesn't understand. And so we will talk to him.

Will you?

I'll try. I've been trying since 2017 to talk to him about it. He just needs some education.

So since 2017, you say, was that the period when you were in every Friday, protest, get arrested?

No, that was two years later. That was 2019. Yeah.

All right. Are you still doing that?

No. Here's why. After years on, everybody's part of protesting and lobbying and writing and getting arrested and so forth, and we didn't have still the right legislation commensurate with what science is saying. We weren't getting it. And we realized the reason is that so many people elected to office in Washington take money from the fossil fuel Industry. And so we thought, well, if you can't change the people, change the people. So we started the Jane Fonda Climate pac and we elect climate champions all over the country. Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, everywhere.

Down ballot, red and blue states, so to speak.

Yeah, down ballot, yeah, because we're building a firewall, we're building a wall to protect. And these down ballot positions really matter to climate. They have huge decision making powers that affect climate and pollution in your community. And it's really hard right now to.

Get at the federal level. Yeah, yes.

And that was very serendipitous that we did that because the fact is that now we're facing two existential crises, climate and democracy. And we can't have a stable climate unless we have a stable democracy. And you can't have a stable democracy unless you have a stable climate. They're interrelated and they have to be solved together.

So let me ask you, Mela, how do you react to that? You have the SHINE collab. What does that do? And what is your interaction with Jane on this new effort?

[Mela Chiponda]

The SHINE collab is a collaboration because we are working together with governments, with women led power enterprises, and of course with people like Jane. Because the climate crisis is not just one issue. It is connected to gender, to gender, to the gender gap. It is connected to all the other sectors because this crisis is not a single issue thing that we can say. We just fighting climate only. This is why as SHINE collab, we're working on the intersection of gender, of climate and energy as well.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how does your government deal with climate mitigation? You've seen here at the federal level, the President of the United States has rolled back, you know, very significant climate and EPA and environmental programs and pulled out of the Paris Climate Accords again. What is your country doing?

[Mela Chiponda]

I would say for my country and I think for a lot of countries in Africa as well. We have 600 million people in Africa living without access to energy, living without access to electricity. And therefore it becomes very difficult for us to say, let us close all the coal mines because we are having people living in extreme energy poverty. And then the argument comes to say we are not the biggest polluters. Africa only contributes to less than 4% of the greenhouse gas emissions. But our argument still is that fossil fuels driven energy systems are very harmful, not only in terms of the greenhouse gas emissions, but in terms of the health of our ecosystems and in terms of the health of people and democracy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And your democracy, democracy as well.

[Mela Chiponda]

And our democracies as well as well. So our governments are not really working on closing down the coal mines, which we wish they should do, but they're actually working on how do we make sure that people have access to energy services.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, Jane, President Trump and frankly many American administrations, and frankly the EU as well, has not paid sufficient attention to Africa. And they're always.

You never get the.

Impression that they're actually doing enough. And President Trump has said that climate science is from stupid people. He's before called Africa certain. You know, he's used expletives to describe certain nations in the world. What do you think Africa can tell us, given the fact that they produce 4% only of climate pollution, and the Caribbean countries, which are the biggest victims or the low lying island countries produce almost no pollution. What do you think we should learn? And how to harness and work with continents like Africa, which you're doing.

Fifteen years ago at the Ford foundation, we created the Frontline Women's Fund because we know that it's women that harvest the food, that plant the seeds, that fetch the water, that chop the wood, that raise the children, that cook the food they hold. They're the glue that holds communities together. And you have to empower them. You have to put resources into their hands so that they can do it in the best possible way. Then along comes the climate crisis. I mean, it's been, it was there all along, but now it's really being felt. The brunt of the climate crisis is felt by the women because their job gets so much harder. They can't find water, they can't find wood. And so they're the 80% of them are displaced. It's women mostly who are displaced by climate crises and they're the last to be rescued. And so we realized now that what we have to do is if we're going to confront the climate crisis successfully, we have to send resources directly to women. You know, most of the big funding organizations, the big governments, they give it to these, I don't know how you describe, doesn't get to the grassroots. It's all up here.

Where does it go, the funding?

[Mela Chiponda]

I think women's labor is taken for granted.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's right.

[Mela Chiponda]

And this is why when big funders focus on government, I feel they know that women are going to rebuild economies anyway. Women are going to subsidize through their unpaid care work, provision of water, provision of energy. And any gap that the government is not doing, particularly in Africa, women are going to do it for free. This is why the climate, the money intended for climate ends up Just up there with governments and not with the people.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Our statistic is that only 2% of all funding for climate crisis crisis is given to women led groups.

So but it's women who really do the work. Yeah, they're the brunt of the climate crisis and they're also the leads in terms of coming up with solutions. So today at The Ford Foundation, 15 years later, after the founding of the Frontline Women and the Frontline Women Fund give it gives money directly. There's no middlemen, there's no trickle down straight to the women on the ground.

Is it like a little bit like, you know, the great Muhammad Yunus and Micro Finance and the Grameen Bank? I mean, not exactly, but they found that whenever they gave a loan, the people who would pay them back in spades was women always on the ground.

When you give it to the women, then the community benefits. We launched the Jane Fonda Gender and Climate Justice Fund in order to try to mitigate the climate effects for women on the ground and to including in the United States. This is all global South.

This is all global South.

This particular, the first cohort today, it was Ecuador. Indigenous people in Ecuador. It was Zimbabwe. No. And Nigeria. Senegal. And one more Indonesia. And Indonesia.

I got this. So look, you know, you have always been an activist. You've always been passionate. Are you, I mean, how do you feel about this literal global superstar who's really devoted, I would say an equal, maybe more amount of her work to activism than just film?

[Mela Chiponda]

This is what we need. We need more Jane Fondas of the world. We need more frontline women defenders. We need such organizations because the climate crisis is not a crisis that can be done by just women in Africa or women in the global majority. This is a crisis that is global in nature. And therefore this is the time for all people who care for people in the planet to come together and say we have to do something. And this is the time when we need to acknowledge that the people who are carrying the severe burden of the climate crisis are women who are living on the front lines of these climate disasters.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the UN says when disaster strikes, climate related or not, women and children are 14 times more likely to die than men. I want to focus a little bit on the democracy part of it that you spoke about. We are right now in a situation in the United States where the very idea of democracy and free speech every day and especially this week has been, you know, is a major issue. What do you think about what's going on in your country? Did you sign the Hollywood Letter about Jimmy Kimmel, bringing him back. Yeah, yeah.

So that was the aclu. Yeah, yeah. You know, all governments and regimes, be they fascistic or democratic, they're held up by pillars of support. The military, the media, art, et cetera. So if you organize within the pillars of support, then you begin to affect the regime. And the way. You know, one of the things that became very clear with the Kimmel being brought back on air by Disney, don't you think it has to do with the fact that so many people were canceling their Disney subscription? We have to find ways to affect the pocketbook that we have to use that we have to use democratic means to affect what's happening and win our democracy. And we have to do it fast.

What do you think as an activist and a counterculture member of the 60s, while you were being a great actress as well, you were also right in the middle of the counterculture. There doesn't seem to be an evolved counterculture in the west anymore. The 60s, whether it was in Paris, when you were living in France, whether it was in the United States, all over the place, it was somehow people responding to what was happening to threaten their freedoms.

Well, right now, if you know the counterculture, it's not like it was in the 60s, because this is. The needs are different right now. But we can't allow the people who are kind of counter to be called domestic terrorists. Greenpeace was just. They were sued at a trial in North Dakota. They were sued and now they have to figure out what to do about it. $660 million. It's called a slap suit. It's using Greenpeace as an example to silence public protest. We can't allow this to happen. We just have to fight it.

Can I take a hard left or right right now?

Hope it's left.

Robert Redford, a co star of yours. So close for four reasons. Tell me about the movies. I had the opportunity and the privilege of interviewing him several times.

I made four movies with him. Probably the most gorgeous of men. Oh, I loved him. You know, the first movie that we. No, the second movie we did together was Barefoot in the Park. He had just purchased the Valley in Utah. So excited. Talking about what he was going to do with it and, you know, and all that. He had a vision. He changed moviemaking. He's made a huge difference and there's a great hole in my heart along with a lot of other men and women. He was loved and respected.

You said when you posted, I think you couldn't stop crying.

Oh, God. The morning I heard, I just cried all morning. I couldn't believe it. He was such a presence. I was always in love with him.

Did you have a favorite movie that you played with him?

Well, I think.

What were the four? There's Barefoot in the park, there was.

The Chase, first the Chase, and then Barefoot in the park and then Electric Horseman and Our Souls at Night. And my favorite is Barefoot in the Park. Yeah.

And you, I don't know how old you are, but you are remarkable.

I'm almost 88.

Okay, that's remarkable. And you are active as anything. How is it getting roles?

I haven't worked in two years. I'm scared to death. I shouldn't say this, I know, but I made three movies in one year. And then I haven't worked since then. And I want to work and I need to work. I miss the craft. It's a noble profession that we're in, getting into the skin of another human being. That's why we tend to be very empathic actors. Do you know you have to get to know the person intimately to become them.

Jane Fonda, Mila Chiponda, thank you both very much indeed.

[Mela Chiponda]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And Jane should still be being cast. So fiery, so passionate, so talented. Since we spoke, Jane Fonda is taking her activism into another important realm, protecting free speech from government censorship. She's relaunched the committee for the First Amendment, the McCarthy era initiative that was started by her father, Henry Ford. We'll be right back after this short break. Welcome back. North Korea vowed to never give up its nuclear arsenal at a rare address to the United Nations General assembly on Monday. The announcement comes at a politically unstable time with growing international concerns around nuclear proliferation. Amid these threats, a bipartisan task force has urged the United States to reconsider how it intercepts the expansion of this destructive industry. Ernest Muniz and Megan o', Sullivan, co chairs of this task force, join Walter Isaacson with their recommendations.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thank you, Chris. John and Megan o' Sullivan and Ernie Muniz, welcome to the show.

[Ernest Muniz]

Pleasure to be here.

[Amanda Davis]

Nice to be here.

[Walter Isaacson]

Megan, you and Ernie were among the co chairs of a report that just came out and I think it's published recently on the Task Force on Nuclear Proliferation and US National Security. What was the point of that, Megan?

[Amanda Davis]

The origins of the task force, I'd say, go back even just as far as 1964, and we think about at that time, China detonated a nuclear weapon and President Lyndon Johnson brought together a group of foreign policy experts to say, what is the next phase of potential nuclear proliferation look like? It was called the Gilpatrick Commission. And they came out with a number of recommendations and considerations that were then implemented and led to 60 years of essentially a period of minimal proliferation of nuclear weapons. We're now at a period where Ernie and our other co chair, Tino Cuellar from the Carnegie Endowment, we assess that we're at a moment where the potential for greater nuclear proliferation has not been greater in decades. And so again we are faced with a very rapidly changing geopolitical environment, one that we think lends itself to much greater proliferation of nuclear weapons. So we convene this bipartisan task force in an effort to again look at the question, is this a national security priority of the United States to advance non proliferation? And if so, are the tools in the architecture that have withstood the test of time for 60 years, are they still well suited to today? And that was the reason that we convened that task force. And the results, as you said, were published just last week.

[Walter Isaacson]

Ernie, as Megan said, It was chaired 60 years or so ago by Ros Gilpatrick, who was Deputy Secretary of State, but it was a Lyndon Johnson presidential commission. Y' all were self organized. Is there a problem that we don't have? You know, the government, the President trying to figure this out?

[Ernest Muniz]

Well, Walter, I think clearly. Well, first of all, let me just say that this task force today came to the same high level conclusion of the Kilpatrick Commission, namely that nuclear non proliferation is indeed central to our security and should remain a priority. But this commission was a non governmental commission and one of our recommendations to, and I'll come back to your question, for example, was about the need to really rethink extended deterrence, how our allies consider U.S. security guarantees. There have always been uncertainties. But I would say now going back to your question today, some of the directions being taken in the United States by the administration, for example, they do elevate some of those concerns about reliability of US commitments. So I would say that distinction really did come into play in our considerations.

[Walter Isaacson]

Phil, Megan, Ernie just talked about extended deterrence, which those of you in the foreign policy business know what it means. But basically it means don't get nuclear weapons of your own. Don't worry, we the US will use our deterrent capability so that you don't particularly need them. Do you think that's believable these days, Megan, Is that still a good policy? Why are you all supporting extended deterrence?

[Amanda Davis]

Well, there's two important points here, Walter. The first is yes, the task force was unequivocal in saying that developing, maintaining a robust, extended deterrence is absolutely essential to a successful continuation of non proliferation objectives. Now we recognize that it is harder today to make that a credible argument to many of our allies. And it's not just at this moment in time, it's really over the span of multiple administrations that I think many of our allies are questioning America's commitment and reliability. Some of this just has to do with it goes back to is America overextended? And I would say particularly now, there are many allies who are questioning whether or not the United States will be willing to use the extended deterrent or to provide the extended deterrent. I think that was one of the reasons why we created the task force is to say it's a changed geopolitical environment. You have China becoming a country that has a very large nuclear arsenal. You have Russia now threatening the use of nuclear weapons. You have Iran a proliferation threat like we haven't seen from Iran before, the current military force notwithstanding and the questions over extended deterrence.

[Walter Isaacson]

Ernie, we just heard Megan say that Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, has been throwing around the implications that he could use nuclear weapons. In a speech that President Trump gave to the military this week, he kind of addressed that and he was talking about Putin saying in the President Trump said he had moved to submarines because of it. And he says we cannot let people throw around that word, the N word. And by N word he meant nuclear. Do you think that President Trump is on this page that we really have to keep a deterrence and also keep a non proliferation policy?

[Ernest Muniz]

Yes, I do actually. And in fact, just to elaborate slightly on what Megan said in this context, part of the extended deterrence is in fact the idea that our allies need to frankly strengthen their military postures and then have those postures integrated with our nuclear deterrent. Strengthening their conventional postures is of course very consistent with what the President has been advocating. I would also say that with regard to Russia specifically, but also I would say China clearly a lot of the success in non proliferation during the Cold War and beyond the Cold War came from great power relationships, the US and the USSR and then Russia working together despite disagreements on a shared interest in non proliferation that continues today. It's a little bit creaky, shall we say, the great power coordination, but is something where we again recommend and reengaging in that, despite the differences with both Russia and China. Now, President Trump, one other thing, Walter, I'll just add, is that President Trump, long before he was president, going back to the 1980s in fact was speaking out against nuclear weapons. He has spoken many times about trying to decrease their role in our security posture. And in fact, it was just earlier this year in May, where Vice President Vance explicitly said that the president, I think, to use his words, hates proliferation, and I hate proliferation. So I think there are elements there to build on. And that's exactly what our report tries to address and to make suggestions. For example, I'll end by just saying that one of the recommendations is that the three countries perhaps even expanded to other nuclear weapon states, at least the five original weapon states, if not more, could, for example, collectively commit to not threaten or use nuclear weapons against non nuclear weapon states. Well, that would be an incentive for them, in fact, to support.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, Putin just did the opposite.

[Ernest Muniz]

I'm sorry?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, President Putin just did the opposite. Nuclear weapons against a non nuclear state.

[Ernest Muniz]

Exactly. And that's one reason why we have said, I have said for sure that President Putin really crossed the line there and did something unprecedented. The idea here is it would be great to put that genie back in the bottle. It's not easy. But that kind of negative security assurance would be, we think, quite effective if we can get there. And I think the President would be interested in going in that direction.

[Walter Isaacson]

Megan, talking about Ukraine, Ukraine had nuclear weapons when it ended up not being part of the Soviet Union anymore. And we convinced them to give up the nuclear weapons by saying, don't worry, you don't need them, we'll defend you. Boy, that doesn't make me feel very confident that we can talk other countries into doing that.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, I think there's, as you know, Walter, a very long history there and contested in some ways. But I think the big point that you're making is a very valid point that many countries around the world not only look at Ukraine and giving up nuclear weapons that were on their soil when the Soviet Union dissolved, but they also look at the. The Libyan example or the Iraq example. And they think countries that give up nuclear weapons or don't have nuclear weapons are ones that are subject to aggression. And they look at other countries, the most obvious one being North Korea, which is the only country in this century to have acquired nuclear weapons. Actually, against perhaps all odds, you see the leader of North Korea comfortably in place. And so I think the lesson that many countries have is that pursuing a nuclear weapon could be in their national security interest. And again, the purpose of the task force is to ask how we can recalibrate our policy and upgrade our tools and the architecture that the international community has to make. Sure. That countries aren't making those kinds of calculations so that they have new or more credible incentives to stay non nuclear. So one of the findings of the task force, which I think is very significant, particular in this political moment, is that again, a bipartisan group of foreign policy, national security experts all agreed that even the US Allies should not be in a position to gain a nuclear weapon, that that's not in the US Interest, that it is in the US Interest to convince them not to pursue one. And the reason why this is so significant is some of your viewers may know that you an active conversation in Washington about, well, maybe it would be cheaper and more efficient and easier for the United States if some of our allies had their own nuclear weapon. We wouldn't have to provide that extended deterrent in the same way. And this group really concluded that's a very risky approach to take and we need to invest again in finding a way to ensure that our allies, that they do not need to go down this road in order to guarantee their own security.

[Walter Isaacson]

Ernie, how could you say with a straight face to the people of South Korea that now that we've allowed North Korea to get a nuclear weapon, they aren't safer and better off with one?

[Ernest Muniz]

We think that we need to maintain our alliance, if you like, with South Korea, we continue to provide a nuclear deterrent. But what's really important is in an integrated way, improving our conventional capabilities. As a reminder, and you well know, you know this quite well, Walter, that the threats to South Korea are not simply from North Korea's nuclear capabilities. They have artillery lined up essentially along the border with South Korea that could pretty much annihilate Seoul. So it really comes down to an integrated regional strategy for security, and that's what we would advocate.

[Walter Isaacson]

Do you think the Trump administration will want to extend this, what's called the START Treaty, the Strategic Arms Reduction Talk Treaty?

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. I can't speak for the Trump administration, but it would make to me, and I think, well, I'll speak for myself at this moment, it would make to me a lot of sense to take Vladimir Putin up on that. I think there might be other motivations that Vladimir Putin has in extending that offer. Perhaps he's looking to try to muddy the water between be tough on Ukraine and nice on nuclear matters. Or perhaps he's looking for limitations on the Golden Dome project that the Trump administration is committed to. But without commenting on what other elements might come into that conversation, I would imagine the Trump administration would find it very much in its interests to have more time to be able to develop a follow on to the new start. And this goes back to Ernie's about how President Trump has been clear that he is not interested in seeing any more nuclear proliferation around the world. And so this would be something that we should recognize as a positive step, although not mistake it for any kind of warming of a relationship with Moscow.

[Ernest Muniz]

Walter, can I just add that I think it's easy to be somewhat cynical about the offer. For one thing, the Russian economy is in no position to greatly expand its nuclear arsenal. Frankly, neither are we in a position to expand our nuclear arsenal right now, given some of the challenges in terms of so called modernizing the arsenal. Nevertheless, completely agree with Megan that having those guardrails at least extended is a very, very good signal and one that has to be capitalized on by having other discussions start. Despite the Ukraine situation. We can have other discussions. And by the way, new start, of course, it puts these quantitative limits on which is what Putin offered to extend. But there are other elements as well in terms of inspections, very, very tricky in this current environment in terms of data exchange, which could be still possible, certainly alerts in terms of missile tests. So I think the issue is, I very much hope the President will accept the offer, but accept it with the statement and let's keep talking and get some other things in place.

[Walter Isaacson]

Megan o', Sullivan, Arnie Muniz, thank you both for joining us.

[Ernest Muniz]

Thank you, Walter.

[Amanda Davis]

Thank you, Walter.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So interesting. And finally, we remember the life of the conservationist and primatologist who bridged the gap between humans and the animal kingdom. Jane Goodall died this week, age 91, leaving behind a towering legacy of understanding of our closest primate cousins. Her research at the Gombe national park in Tanzania led to a groundbreaking discovery proving that contrary to all scientific assumptions, chimpanzees were capable of making and using tools just like humans. You are not a scientist and you come back with this revelation. I mean, how did you stick to your guns? Did people say, excuse me, who are you? The scientists did.

And you know, fortunately, I'd loved animals all my life.

I had an amazing, supportive mother and I had a great teacher when I was a child who taught me absolutely. These professors at Cambridge may be very.

Knowledgeable and learned and erudite, but this.

Teacher taught me that when it comes to animal personality, mind and emotion, they're wrong.

And that was my dog.

You can't have a dog, a cat.

A bird, a horse, I don't care what, and not know that.

Of course, we're not the only beings.

With personality, mind and emotion.

She's right, of course. Her love and knowledge of the animal kingdom helped us all transcend the too often vicious human world we inhabit. As an advocate for our natural world, she will be sorely missed. And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London. News fatigue.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Have I Got News for you?

[Walter Isaacson]

Was the cure and also the disease.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

CNN's Comedy Quiz show is back, making.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Sense of the mayhem and definitely adding to it.

[Arseny Yatsenyuk]

Have I Got News for you. Saturday at 9 on CNN.