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- [00:00]
Kenny Chesney
If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With the all new Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100 so you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from good to excellent. Introducing the new Sleep Score on Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required.
- [00:35]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:40]
Walter Isaacson
He's going to sell this to Ukraine. He's got to sell Ukraine to Russia. That's what he's that's what a dealmaker does.
- [00:47]
Christiane Amanpour
President Trump standing by special envoy Steve Witkoff amidst reports that he coached a close poison Putin aid on getting a Ukraine deal. Is Kyiv about to be sold out? We'll ask the former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba. Then the 2,500-year-old play that's tearing up Broadway. Today I speak with Oedipus stars Mark Strong and Lesley Manville about their thrilling new production of a Sophocles classic as fresh as today's headlines.
- [01:18]
Kenny Chesney
And I had no idea music was going to be my life.
- [01:21]
Christiane Amanpour
Walter Isaacson speaks with Country Music hall of Famer Kenny Chesney about his bestselling memoir, Heart Life Music. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Since when has ending a war seeking peace been so controversial? Well, the Trump administration's latest foray there is a prime example. Delegations from Kyiv, Washington and Europe meet to overhaul the Trump peace plan, which critics say sounded chapter and verse like Putin's permanent wish list. Adding fuel to the firestorm of protest. A leaked transcript released by Bloomberg of a phone call between US Special envoy Steve Witkoff and Putin's peace negotiator, especially coaching the Russian leader on how to get the most out of Trump. But the US President has waved off any concerns while still using Kremlin esque talking points. Take a listen.
- [02:37]
Walter Isaacson
The way it's going, if you look, it's just moving in one direction. So eventually that's land that over the next couple of months might be gotten by Russia anyway. So do you want to fight and lose another 50, 60,000 people or do you want to do something now?
- [02:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Of course, it was Trump's refusal to allow Congress to pass US military aid to Ukraine that hurt a lot throughout 2024, though that bill eventually did pass. Now his envoy was entertaining Russia's maximalist demands that any final plan must block NATO membership for Ukraine, reduce the size of its armed forces and hand over all of the Donbas to Russia, including territory that Russia doesn't even control. Trump says Wyckoff will travel to Moscow for more of these negotiations next week. Meanwhile, civilian casualties in Ukraine spike as Russia intensifies its attacks on energy, infrastructure and other areas. For more on this, let us now bring in Dmytro Kuleba, who was Ukraine's foreign minister until last year. So let me just ask you point blank first, welcome to the program. Do you feel that the current setup is a recipe for selling Ukraine down the river, selling out Ukraine?
- [03:57]
Dmytro Kuleba
Well, I don't really see how this latest effort differs from what we saw in February, March this year or following the summit in Alaska. So there is kind of a deja vu effect where things just repeat, repeat themselves from time to time in the course of the year. And they failed before. I believe this is going to fail as well. The problem is different. The problem is how can we change the way President Trump and his team handles this war? That is fundamental. But whether Ukraine can or cannot be sold out will not be decided, neither in Moscow nor in Washington. It will be decided in Ukraine and in the European Union because as long as we as a Europe hold our line, none of them, none of other leaders will be able to sort us out.
- [04:52]
Christiane Amanpour
You know, let me just play then, since you bring up the European Union. And of course, we know that over this past weekend they were enraged and all gathered to try to pull this so called Trump peace plan, 28 point plan back to some kind of acceptable, reasonable negotiating framework. This is what President Macron has said. Take a listen.
- [05:11]
Dmytro Kuleba
We are clearly at a crucial juncture. Negotiations are getting a new impetus and we should size this momentum not because there is reason for alarm. Ukraine is solid, Russia is slow and Europe is steadfast, but because there is finally a chance to make real progress toward a good peace.
- [05:33]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, Foreign Minister, I think the two points he makes are very interesting. So he says Europe is steadfast and there's finally a chance to make progress towards a good peace. I want to ask you to react to that bit of what Macron said first.
- [05:51]
Dmytro Kuleba
Well, I think it is important to look into November 2026 now and realize one fact, that if things remain as they are in November 2026, Ukraine is going to lose more territories, more people, our economy will be devastated even more. But we will not get a better deal than the one that is being on the table so my point is that it' not enough to be steadfast. Things have to change. Europe has to act faster. Europe has to be more efficient when it comes to the production of weapons, seizing Russian frozen assets, unblocking accession talks for Ukraine. All of these things are in the hands of Europe. If Europe wants to be respected and heard, it has to act.
- [06:41]
Christiane Amanpour
And the other thing he said was we should seize the momentum, not because there is reason for alarm. Ukraine is solid, Russia is slow. Your analysis of that statement.
- [06:54]
Dmytro Kuleba
As I said, Russia is slow, Ukraine is solid. But Russia is still making progress, which means that Ukrainian army is solid enough not to allow to prevent Russian army from spillovering across Ukraine. We are strong enough not to allow the collapse of the front line, but we are not strong enough to stop their advancement. This is why I'm making the point that in November 2026, if nothing changes, President Macron will be able to repeat his words, but Russians will be far more in a far more advanced positions compared to where they are now. And things are not going to improve. So it's not enough just to be steadfast. Things need to change if we really want to stop Russia.
- [07:43]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, so that is basically what President Trump centrally alluded to in the clip that I played for him. This is negotiations. This is how it works. And he said, you know, maybe Russia will just keep fighting and winning and maybe there'll be another 60,000 Ukraine, Ukrainian forces and people dead over this period. So I wonder what your reaction to that is. Okay, we're gonna go to a break because we've got a little bit of a technical issue. We'll be right back.
- [08:22]
Dmytro Kuleba
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy this week on the podcast Terms of Service. Hey, Meta, what's the weather like in New York today?
- [08:30]
Kenny Chesney
In New York City, it's currently sunny.
- [08:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And 45 degrees Fahrenheit.
- [08:35]
Dmytro Kuleba
These are the latest Ray Ban smart glasses from Meta. They look more or less like normal Ray Ban Wayfarers in a navy color, just with two little cameras in either corner above my eyes. But just how much can you actually do with smart glasses?
- [08:50]
Lesley Manville
And could they really one day replace our smartphones?
- [08:54]
Dmytro Kuleba
Listen to CNN's Terms of Service wherever.
- [08:57]
Christiane Amanpour
You get your podcasts. Welcome back. We are still trying to get the former Ukrainian foreign minister. Perhaps there was a blackout there, as is given Russia's constant attacks on Ukrainian energy infrastructure. But first we're going to go to Hong Kong, where the deadliest fire in decades is still burning. We begin in the densely populated city where a massive blaze ripped through a high rise apartment complex in the North Taipo district. Authorities say at least 36 people have been killed. Firefighters say scorching temperatures and drifting debris are hindering efforts to reach people inside the apartments. Footage from the scene shows flames and thick smoke billowing across multiple buildings. Latching onto bamboo scaffolding and construction netting that was enveloping the complex. Residents watched as flames and smoke funneled up from the complex. The fire left many people homeless and in need of shelter. Correspondent Ivan Watson is at the scene of the fire and filed this report.
- [10:03]
Ivan Watson
I can see a third ladder from a fire truck now spraying water on this side of the burning towers. But I think there are more towers actually burning than I can see water hoses spraying on the towers from this side. I think there are, there are five burning right now. As you can see, there are dozens and dozens of fire trucks that are on the scene. But this is a deadly fire and is on track to perhaps be one of the deadliest that Hong Kong has seen in decades. Among 13 people confirmed killed so far and dozens injured are one veteran firefighter who had nine years of experience, a 37 year old man named Ho Wai Ho. And the authorities have expressed condolences to his family at his loss. Right now, but to just give you some context, this is a public housing development that was constructed in 1983. It's called called Longfoot Court and it had more than 4,000 residents, nearly 2,000 apartments in there. And it looks to me as if the towers of the public housing development are burning from the top, from the roof down to the bottom floors. And there are no signs of the fires being brought under control. Now I don't know from the live image that you're seeing or perhaps Dan can show you, but you can see some of the bamboo scaffolding that sheaths the left side of one of those towers. There were renovations going on around these towers when the fire broke out. And Hong Kong does its construction traditionally with bamboo scaffolding, which is lighter, and I think that many would argue stronger in some respects than steel, than metal scaffolding. But it may be that that contributed to the spread of the fire, which the authorities say they got an initial alert about a fire just before 3pm local time on a ground floor area that was under renovation. And as fire departments were responding to it, it seems to have quickly spread to neighboring towers to such a speed that by just two hours later, this fireman had already been declared dead. And he was the leader of one of these fire trucks, an experienced Officer. Many of the residents would have been over 65 years old. I am hoping, I am praying that people were evacuated in time to not have been caught in this terrible inferno that has climbed up at least four of these towers that I'm looking at right now, because even rescue, I think, is impossible to imagine with these types of flames. And I don't see ladders reaching up into the buildings on this side of the towers. This would be a deadly fire, the deadliest that I can remember in Hong Kong, and I've lived here for 10 years. That has grown completely out of control here in Hong Kong's Taipo district.
- [13:28]
Christiane Amanpour
Thanks to Ivan Watson. Returning now to our top story and the former Ukrainian Foreign Minister, Dmytro Culeba. I want to ask you, foreign Minister, about these leaked, you know, transcripts that Bloomberg has published, and I particularly want to just pray see that in one of them, Steve Witkoff, the president's special envoy, is talking to Yuri Ushakov, President Putin's special aide, in which he appears to be coaching him on how to get Putin to call President Trump and how best to make that call go, apparently to get the maximalist stuff that the Russians can get out of it. So this is another part of the conversation. I'm gonna read it to you. And we've got it on the screen. So this is Steve Witkoff. He's now saying, now me to you. In other words, this is Steve Witkoff talking directly to Yuri Ushakov. I know what it's going to take to get a peace deal done, Donetsk and maybe a land swap somewhere. But I'm saying, instead of talking like that, let's talk more, hopefully, because I think we're going to get a deal here. And I think Yuri, the president, will give me a lot of space and discretion to get the deal. And here's one more thing. Zelensky is coming to the White House on Friday. I know that. Yuri Ushakov laughs I will go to that meeting, says Witkoff, because they want me there. But I think, if possible, we have the call with your boss before that Friday meeting. Yuri says before. Before, yeah, Witkoff says, correct. Now, I don't know what you make of that, but that is the envoy telling Putin's envoy the parameters of the peace. It's not even the president's. It's the envoys doing that. And as we know, there is a sort of feeling abroad that Trump listens to the last person in his ear. And so apparently the last person he talked to before meeting Zelensky in Late October was Putin, and it was about the tomahawks that the President was floating, selling to Zelensky after that meeting and apparently after having a call with Putin, no more tomahawks. So how do you. Is that how you see that?
- [15:38]
Dmytro Kuleba
You're right. The real compromising part of this conversation is where Steven Wytkov suggests to Yuri Ushakov that Putin calls Trump because Zelensky is coming to Washington. So we should have no illusions. Of course, the Russian intelligence knew, was aware that Zelenskyy was coming. And in like, in a different world of diplomacy, it was. It would have been Russia who had to initiate a call between Putin and Trump. But they are lucky because they have Stephen Wyckoff on the other side who actually comes up with his own idea with exactly the same proposal in order to effectively make an impact on the way the meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy would go. So for me, from the diplomatic experience perspective, this episode just reaffirms how strongly Mr. Witkov is trying to help Russia in the effort, in the effort to end, to end the war and influence the flow of events inside Trump's team.
- [16:54]
Christiane Amanpour
And it's clearly happening. I don't know what you make, because clearly over this weekend, when all of this bust into the open, Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, flew to Geneva to try to, I don't know, I guess rescue some semblance of an acceptable peace deal. But here's another leak from a separate call, Mr. Kuleba, between Yuri Ushakov, who we were talking about, and Kirill Dimitriev, another very close Putin ally, who's also apparently very close to Witkoff. This is Ushakov. Well, we need the maximum, don't you think? What do you think? Otherwise, what's the point of passing anything on Dmitriev? No, look, I think we'll just make this paper from our position and I'll informally pass it along, making it clear that it's all informal and I'll let them do like their own. But I don't think they'll take exactly our version, but at least it'll be as close to it as possible. So basically, they're saying, well, what do you make of that?
- [17:54]
Dmytro Kuleba
That 28 point plan is a list of Russian ultimatums blended with American ideas on how to make these ultimatums look better than they actually are. I don't think it's a revelation to anyone that just copy pasting Russian ultimatum as it was done once again clearly tells you where all this comes from. You know, if it looks like A duck and walks like a duck.
- [18:27]
Kenny Chesney
It's probably a duck.
- [18:28]
Christiane Amanpour
Right.
- [18:28]
Dmytro Kuleba
So if it looks like a Russian ultimatum, then probably it comes from Russia.
- [18:33]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. The problem is that it's being spoken about by the US which are meant to be, A, Ukraine's strongest ally, and B, honest brokers. So my question to you is this. You know, A, should Wyckoff recuse himself, and B, do you still think the US Has a semblance of your back? Clearly, we know the problems because they've been displayed for global audiences to see between Trump and Zelenskyy. But then things seem to get a little bit more reasonable, and now it seems to be going off the tracks again. As Zelenskyy said when all of this was leaked, we have to make a really difficult decision between our dignity and between a strong ally. He didn't say the US between the support of a strong ally. So where do you think that balance is right now?
- [19:23]
Dmytro Kuleba
I think timeline is very important. And the time when President Zelensky said those words is centuries ago compared to where we are now. And this leak is a turning point because, you know, it's important to analyze what is in it. But the most important question is this. So someone is tapping the phones of senior officials. Most probably it was Ushakov's phone because he appears in both conversations while his interlocutors are different. Anyone from the intelligence service will tell you that if you're tapping someone you know, stay silent. Don't let him know that you're doing that. So yesterday, someone, and we don't know who, is doing that, but the one who was tapping Ushakov's phone found the situation so consequential that he decided that it's worth exposing the risk. The threat of the situation is worth exposing the topic. So the situation is completely different now. And I think we can bury the 28 point plan because it's discredited, because nothing. It's very hard to imagine how you can actually move on from here, from here now.
- [20:47]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, so let me then ask. I just need. Because I've got only a little bit time left. The national security adviser, former Defense Minister Rustam Emirov, has also publicly expressed some optimism about reaching a common understanding on the core terms. Andre Yermak has said that we have, and he used the word solid security guarantees, I guess, from the United States. Do you think that's true or is that public relations?
- [21:15]
Dmytro Kuleba
Well, they had to radiate optimism, but at the same time, it was said that the most difficult parts of the plan were left in brackets for the conversation between Trump and Zelenskyy. And there is a rule in diplomacy, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. And as you can imagine, if you do not find agreement on the most controversial points, which I would guess would be about the land, about NATO and about Ukraine's army, then it gets very, very hard to seriously argue that we made excellent progress. But it's true that both sides, the US Delegation led by Marco Rubio and Ukrainian delegation, they had to send a stabilizing message out after the crisis that erupted a week ago, and that's what they did.
- [22:04]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, well, listen, obviously this is still to be worked out, and we will have you back and try to figure out what's going on. Dimitro Culeba, thank you very much indeed. Next to a 2,500-year-old play that is currently the hottest ticket on Broadway, you may remember Oedipus Rex from your college classics course, but a new production written by Robert Icke and starring Mark Strong and Leslie Manville, reimagines this Sophocles tragedy as a contemporary political thriller. Even if you know the secrets that haunt the passionate marriage of Oedipus and Jocasta, the play feels as shocking and fresh as the latest tabloid scandal. And I sat down with Oedipus stars in New York for an intimate inside view of this new old classic. Lesley Manville and Mark Strong, welcome to the program.
- [22:52]
Lesley Manville
Thank you.
- [22:53]
Christiane Amanpour
Thank you. I say Oedipus. Some people say Oedipus. What is it?
- [22:57]
Lesley Manville
Well, we say Oedipus in the UK but I think mostly here, people say Oedipus.
- [23:03]
Christiane Amanpour
This is, I mean, it's a 2,500-year-old play by Sophocles made for the current moment. What is it that has brought it down to earth, so to speak? It's the political angle, right, for this moment.
- [23:17]
Mark Strong
Well, Rob makes the point. Rob Eick, who's the writer, director, makes the point that when this play was done originally, two and a half thousand years ago, it would have been contemporary. So the idea of modernizing it and making it contemporary is not so outlandish. But what it suits is the political kind of framework that he's put it in because he makes Oedipus, Oedipus, a guy who's about to win a landslide election, which kind of relates to the idea that the original Oedipus probably had a little bit too much hubris.
- [23:48]
Christiane Amanpour
And then there were, you know, references to him having to show his birth certificate. And people reacted to that because of The Obama, Trump sort of thing. So there are quite a lot of modern day relevant instances there. So I want to read something from Vogue which I thought was really quite good and I want to ask you to comment on it. So this is about the play. They are or were the perfect couple. They've been together for years. They have adult children.
- [24:13]
Kenny Chesney
Children.
- [24:13]
Christiane Amanpour
Why should a little quirk in the family tree only just discovered mean everything has to change? Does a man really have to separate from his loving, supportive, gorgeous, funny wife just because she happens to be his mother? I mean, it's put like that.
- [24:29]
Mark Strong
Well, part of the joy of the play and part of the experience that people have is that there is a very strong love story in its core and it works because you want them to be and they can't help themselves at the end.
- [24:42]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, you know, one of the things I read that you had said is that you insisted that it has to be the audience has to be rooting for this couple to stay together despite everything.
- [24:54]
Lesley Manville
Yes, because of course, at the beginning of the play they are. Their knowledge of their own relationship is that they are a 23 long year long marriage. It's a great marriage. They're not just sugary and cute. There's a depth to their relationship. They're a sophisticated, intelligent couple who are very supportive of each other. She's very politically astute in the same way that he is. And she's had a very interesting past. She's had a troublesome past which is shared with the audience throughout the play. So of course, you know, you get. It's only when you get to the end that you realize that they realize that they're this, they're a mother son relationship. But of course, and I think the audience are thrown into a chaos of their own because on one hand there's the moralist in you saying, well, that's got to stop. But they've been. Then other people say, well, but they've been. They've been doing it for 23 years. They've made a family. There is an argument, but of course it's an argument that Oedipus can't live with because he is a truth seeking missile. And that's been the downfall.
- [26:12]
Christiane Amanpour
And that is actually, I don't know whether that's in the original. It was because of your truth seeking that you couldn't live with it. But certainly that was a huge, you know, the emblem for this play. And we live in a world certainly for me, the idea of the truth is sacrosanct. And even your you know, merch says truth is a. Xx. Excuse me, I asked the wrong word. Truth is a mother.
- [26:37]
Lesley Manville
Yeah, Yeah, I love that. That says a lot about you.
- [26:45]
Mark Strong
But in the same way that you're asking the audience to think about how they feel about mother and son having that loving relationship, you're also asking the audience how they feel about the fact that this man's need and search for the truth actually destroys everything that they have.
- [27:02]
Christiane Amanpour
Which is another difficult thing because, I mean, I want to keep searching for the truth, but I don't want it to destroy us. Can we just actually, now that we've talked about it, just go back? Me, Okay. I know about Sophocles, Oedipus Rex, me. I couldn't remember all the details. It was like, okay, guy kills his. Kills his father, marries his mother. But it's not like that. The story unfolds in a way, as you said, that neither of you know who you actually are. And there is a ticking clock, an electronic clock, which is so. It makes you so tense. Actually.
- [27:35]
Mark Strong
The great thing about this play, I think, is the fact that all the action has happened before the play begins. So all the things that become revelations have already taken place. He's already, you know, his dad is already sick. In the original, it's a road rage incident. The two go, he meets his father, unbeknownst to him, it's his father in a cart and they have an argument and he kills the guy. So in. In our version, it's a car accident. So he's still culpable for the problem, but it's. It's just, you know, it's just been developed in a slightly different way. But it's still, you know, it's still in line with what the original intention was.
- [28:16]
Christiane Amanpour
And your character, Jocasta, eventually you all start putting it together halfway through the play. The bits of the puzzle, particularly around the car crash. You know you were married to Laius.
- [28:32]
Lesley Manville
Yes.
- [28:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And he was the one who was killed in the car crash.
- [28:36]
Lesley Manville
Yes, yes, yes. She decides to reveal this story. The real backstory of her life, her history with laius. And then slowly, the puzzle of Laius death. The truth of Laius death, which makes him. Puts him in a very difficult position. And of course she's panicking because she knows that he is not going to, in the clock ticking in half an hour's time, make this speech as the new leader. It's a night of cataclysmic events, all.
- [29:17]
Christiane Amanpour
On the verge of winning an election.
- [29:19]
Lesley Manville
Or with the clock ticking that in 24 minutes, 13 minutes, 5 minutes, he's going to be named the new leader. And he is saying, eventually, I'm not going to make that speech until I know who I am. And that for her is, you know, and then the final revelation happens and the clock's reached zero.
- [29:39]
Mark Strong
It's. It's all real time. That's the interesting thing. So the thing plays over two hours between the polls closing and the results being announced, but as I said, it's all happened off stage. All the, the things that become revealed have already happened. That's the genius.
- [29:53]
Christiane Amanpour
And the genius, I think of the production, certainly as an audience member, is that you actually do know what the story is.
- [30:00]
Mark Strong
Yeah.
- [30:00]
Christiane Amanpour
You know, because it's a 2, 500 year old play by.
- [30:04]
Lesley Manville
Well, surprisingly, though, not everybody does.
- [30:06]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay.
- [30:07]
Lesley Manville
I mean, I had somebody in the other night who had no idea how it ended.
- [30:11]
Mark Strong
You hear the odd gasp.
- [30:12]
Lesley Manville
Yeah, yeah, so. But I agree with you, it's.
- [30:15]
Christiane Amanpour
And yet what I'm saying is just I'm still on the edge of my seat wondering what's going to happen and actually, are they going to stay together? Are they not? When obviously I know that it's, it's going to come to it and that.
- [30:26]
Lesley Manville
It, that really is the dramatic genius of, of Rob.
- [30:29]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah.
- [30:29]
Lesley Manville
Because of course, you know, you do. You're looking at the clock and you think, there's so much to find out. And there's two and a half minutes left, so where is this going to go? How is it? And then.
- [30:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, I don't want to get to where it's going to go, but we will.
- [30:44]
Mark Strong
I was going to say it's the way he structured it and the drip feed of information is handled so, so suavely that as an audience, you literally are just pulled forward into your. In your seat and you just want to find out what happens. And all the time this drip feed of information is happening, this clock is running down. So there's half of your brain thinking, hang on, there's only a few minutes and there's still. I haven't. There's more. I need to know.
- [31:06]
Christiane Amanpour
I was thinking that and I was wondering, how are they going to get there? Yeah, obviously, I mean, you guys have been doing for it for how long?
- [31:11]
Mark Strong
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we get there. Well, we've been doing it for months now, haven't we?
- [31:14]
Lesley Manville
Well, we did. And in England, over a hundred performances in London.
- [31:18]
Christiane Amanpour
And have you got it down to a T in terms of the clock or is there any sort of wiggle room? At all. Or do you sometimes think, oh my God, you know, I'm a little bit slower.
- [31:27]
Lesley Manville
Listen, the clock has to adapt to us.
- [31:29]
Christiane Amanpour
That's it.
- [31:30]
Lesley Manville
That's all we're going to reveal.
- [31:31]
Mark Strong
Although the truth is that the plane never varies a minute.
- [31:35]
Lesley Manville
No, it's pretty much the same most evenings. Yeah, sometimes. But we never look at the clock and think, oh, I better speak quickly because you could not possibly do that when you're dealing with such emotional dialogue.
- [31:50]
Christiane Amanpour
So many, many scenes. But the one that was just, I mean, unforgettable is that when you have both realized what's going on and then you, some point you've been given the, you know, the announcement that you've won and you're getting out of your sort of day clothes and you are getting undressed and dressed up again, I suppose to go and give the victory speech. That is an incredible scene. No words and you're just. Yeah, it's incredible. Is that hard to play that one?
- [32:21]
Mark Strong
It's not really, because you know that what's marinading at that point is the sum total of everything that everybody's seen during the play. They've seen them as a family, they've seen them in love, they've seen, they've seen Oedipus be, you know, vicious to her brother in law, you know, nasty.
- [32:38]
Christiane Amanpour
You were jolly horrible to him.
- [32:39]
Mark Strong
He's quite nasty in the beginning. I think there's quite a sort of macho aggression at the beginning. But that's again part of the hubris element that he's sort of almost too high, he's overreaching. And I love the journey that takes him actually to where he just ends up becoming like a completely helpless. But it's that moment when we, when we have to get changed is, is, is. It's, it's brilliant because it allows everybody to just work out in their own minds what's happened, where they're at, how they would behave.
- [33:08]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Mark Strong
What they're feeling. How's he going to make that speech? What's going to happen to them now in their lives? There's so much going on and to just do it in silence. Yeah, that long is great.
- [33:18]
Christiane Amanpour
I guess many people, if they haven't read software, they will have heard of Sigmund Freud and the Oedipus complex. Is that, I mean, what do you think about that? And it's sort of what people might be thinking about that because I think you did say. I mean, let me just.
- [33:33]
Lesley Manville
Are you gonna quote me?
- [33:34]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, I'm gonna quote you. Actually, because in the play you said sarcastically as Jocasta, every man has the effing his mother dream.
- [33:42]
Lesley Manville
Yes, well, that is.
- [33:43]
Christiane Amanpour
And then everybody giggles.
- [33:44]
Lesley Manville
That is actually one of the only lines in our version that's taken from Sophocles.
- [33:53]
Mark Strong
Almost word for word.
- [33:54]
Lesley Manville
Almost word for word.
- [33:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah.
- [33:56]
Lesley Manville
That's the only.
- [33:57]
Christiane Amanpour
How do they say it in Greek?
- [34:00]
Lesley Manville
Don't ask us.
- [34:02]
Christiane Amanpour
We don't have to bleep it.
- [34:04]
Mark Strong
The interesting thing about that time of psychiatry and everything, and the fact that, you know, Freud took on the idea of the Oedipus complex and made it one of the tenets of his psychiatry is it's just a theory, isn't it? It's just an idea. Do we believe it? I mean, genuinely, is that a real thing or not? I'm not so sure. I wonder whether it wasn't a clever Viennese guy just thinking, hey, I'm gonna go down that path.
- [34:27]
Christiane Amanpour
Could have been, yeah.
- [34:28]
Lesley Manville
I mean, I'm sure lots of men have had that dream. But it's, as you say, it's a theory.
- [34:34]
Mark Strong
Yeah, exactly.
- [34:36]
Christiane Amanpour
Where does this stand for you? I mean, I'm sure you love all your babies, that is, all your performances, your films, theater. I'm sure every one of them has incredible meaning because they're all incredible experiences. But how does this for both of you stack up against some of the incredible film work, for instance, that you've done?
- [34:56]
Mark Strong
Well, for me, funnily enough, I would say my two favorite experiences and the things that I probably got the most out of were both plays. And one was Arthur Miller's A View from the Bridge, that. That I did about 10 years ago, also on Broadway. And this one. And the funny thing about that Miller play is it's very Greek in the stage directions. It specifies Doric columns, and he's written it with a nod to the Greek tragedians. So the fact that the two things that I've done about based on Greek tragedy, I don't know what that means. I mean, those guys obviously knew when they were writing what they were doing, because those are, I think, my two favorite experiences. Film is great, you know, but there's nothing quite like a live audience and feeling the vibration and the moment when you hear an audience gasp or you feel that silence and realize that their brains are turning over and they're finding things difficult. There's nothing quite like it.
- [35:48]
Christiane Amanpour
And for you?
- [35:49]
Lesley Manville
Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, if you're going to say we are going to do 104 performances in London, probably the same number here, You've got to know that. That it's something you really want to do. And I never tire of doing Oedipus. And it is like with Mark, it's absolutely up there for me with a small handful of other plays that I've done. And that doesn't negate my work with Mike Lee, my work with Paul Thomas Anderson at all. Great directors, they're just. It's different. And different skills are required of you. And for me, nothing beats the responsibility that is yours and yours alone and your comrades on stage of going out there. And you are responsible for that arc of the evening. You can't be edited. If you're no good, it's you. And it's down to good acting. And that's thrilling.
- [36:47]
Christiane Amanpour
And finally, finally, I want to ask you, because you all came out very sombre. Obviously, it's a really difficult play, but have you decided how you're going to face the curtain call?
- [36:58]
Lesley Manville
Well, Mark. Mark, you're. Mark. Rob directed the curtain call. He thinks things like that are important. And I agree in the same way that he's. In a way, although he isn't directing, but he has certainly directed the front of house staff on how to conduct themselves during our play. They're not allowed to just wander around. People aren't allowed to be readmitted. So it's about making the whole event. And he felt that if we're all grinning at the curtain call, you know, as if we've just done 42nd street, it lets the audience off the hook and makes them think, oh, well, they're all right, they're all happy now. He wants us to kind of see, stay in that bubble that we've created.
- [37:46]
Mark Strong
It's difficult. It's difficult too, because Broadway audiences, they want to be involved. You know, this idea that you get around when you come on, that's not British or West Ender.
- [37:55]
Christiane Amanpour
They did when you came on.
- [37:57]
Mark Strong
Yeah, well, they did it when the.
- [37:58]
Lesley Manville
And we've now tried to crush that because I've always come on with a kind of big taking off the coat, a big sigh, you know. Oh, thank God the campaign's over. Now we can relax. We've cut the sigh. So there isn't a kind of look at me moment. But they still do. But the thing that annoys me the most is taking our photograph at the curtain call show.
- [38:19]
Christiane Amanpour
I saw you get annoyed last night.
- [38:20]
Mark Strong
Yeah.
- [38:21]
Kenny Chesney
Be warned.
- [38:21]
Lesley Manville
Just, you know, be in that moment. If you want to clap, fantastic. If you want to stand up and clap, even better. But let's Preserve something. Let's not make everything about cameras and Instagram and social media. This is theatre. Let it cook and feel it. Just let your soul and your heart have the emotions of the evening without going, gotta record this. And some people even walk to the front to do it. I've got to let it go.
- [39:00]
Mark Strong
I know you have. You got to, you know, gonna happen. But it's about maintaining the spell, I think. And that's why Leslie so furious with the. With the camera thing.
- [39:08]
Lesley Manville
Yeah.
- [39:09]
Mark Strong
And why we don't, you know, give it large at the curtain cord is. It's a spell.
- [39:14]
Christiane Amanpour
It is. And it's gripping, really. It's a. It's phenomenal. Leslie Manville, Mark Strong, thank you both very much.
- [39:20]
Mark Strong
Thank you.
- [39:20]
Lesley Manville
Thank you.
- [39:22]
Christiane Amanpour
Two amazing actors in a great play. We'll be right back. Life on the Mars farm. It's anything but quiet.
- [39:34]
Dmytro Kuleba
For me and Dave. Every day is a lot of moving parts.
- [39:37]
Christiane Amanpour
Five kids do not go in the house. A working farm and a renovation business that never stops.
- [39:45]
Mark Strong
We've been pushed to the limit.
- [39:46]
Kenny Chesney
If you build it, they will come.
- [39:48]
Christiane Amanpour
Oh, my gosh, it's so beautiful.
- [39:51]
Dmytro Kuleba
Just another day in this crazy, beautiful.
- [39:54]
Kenny Chesney
Life we it call call ours.
- [39:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Fixer to fabulous season premiered December 2nd.
- [39:58]
Kenny Chesney
At 8 on HGTV.
- [40:05]
Christiane Amanpour
Now to a country music legend. The American singer songwriter Kenny Chesney has sold 30 million albums worldwide and racked up dozens of number one singles. And just last month, he was inducted into the Country Music hall of Fame. Now he his memoir, heart Life Music, takes us back to where it all started. Growing up in a small town in Tennessee, dreaming of stardom. He joins Walter Isaacson from Nashville to discuss how country music changed his life.
- [40:35]
Walter Isaacson
Thank you. Chrisean and Kenny Chesney, welcome to the show.
- [40:38]
Kenny Chesney
Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate it.
- [40:40]
Walter Isaacson
At the beginning of this wonderful memoir, you talk about lying on your back in the grass and looking at the stars. And tell me what you learned from that.
- [40:49]
Kenny Chesney
Well, as a child, I lived with my grandmother, my mom, and I lived with my grandparents while my stepfather was in Vietnam. And, you know, when you live that far outside of Knoxville, you know, there's no light pollution at all. So on a clear night in the summer, you can see forever. And I would. I don't know why I did it. I would just go out. It would just make me feel good. I would go out and lie out in her backyard and stare up at the sky. And now as an adult, looking back, that's where this curiosity for life started.
- [41:23]
Walter Isaacson
And you also talk about the Fact that you know that every other kid and every dot in the map is probably doing the same thing.
- [41:32]
Kenny Chesney
I would like to think so. I can't be the only one, right? So I. But I only knew, you know, I had three roads that I went down as a kid. I knew the road to church, I knew the road to school, and I knew the road to the ballpark. And that was about it. But I was always really curious as to what was past my county line and what else was out there in the cosmos, you know. And so it wasn't necessarily dreaming of music. It was just dreaming to dream. And it wasn't that I wanted to leave, it was just that I wanted what was out there.
- [42:06]
Walter Isaacson
And when you're age 3, they give you a plastic guitar and a little microphone. You did they know at age three?
- [42:14]
Kenny Chesney
I don't know. I. You know what's crazy is I look at that picture that's in the book and if you look at pictures of me now at 57, I stand the exact same way as I did as a 3 year old with that guitar. It's crazy.
- [42:29]
Walter Isaacson
You said that you automatically got your.
- [42:31]
Kenny Chesney
Left hand, automatically knew. It was unbelievable. But you know what? I felt like that over the years. Early on, I had no idea music was going to be my life. But it was always kind of whatever higher power you believe in, it was always. It was as if God or whatever was touching me on the shoulder with music. Now I wanted sports consumed my life, but there was always music in it, here and there. Never knowing that one day that I realized that I could be creative and creativity just consumed my life. When I figured that out.
- [43:11]
Walter Isaacson
You know, I come from New Orleans. We talk about the spirituals and the marching bands and all flowing together to create jazz. What was flowing, what rivers were flowing together to create your music?
- [43:22]
Kenny Chesney
There was bluegrass early on, and then there was in my mom's kitchen. And on the way to school, I heard a lot of country music. But once I got into high school, I realized there was a group called Van Halen. And then I realized there was a group called Leonard Skynyrd. I realized there was acdc. And then when I got into college is when I realized the genius of Bruce Springsteen, of Jimmy Buffett and Bob Marley and the Wailers. Now if it's possible to put all those acts into. Into a stew, that would be my music. Because I'm a true believer that the music that you digest as a child and as a young adult, when you become an adult and start making your own records, it's only natural for the music that you make as an adult. What comes out of you as an adult is a direct reflection of the music that you digested early on in life.
- [44:18]
Walter Isaacson
Well, let's unpack all that music you digest and how it fit in. You mentioned Jimmy Buffett, and there's a Gulf island inflection to your music. I think you did something waiting for a hurricane or something with him.
- [44:33]
Kenny Chesney
Well, when I. When I first started in this business, first of all, Jimmy was the first one that taught me that it was possible on any level to paint pictures with words. And I. I didn't know that was possible.
- [44:47]
Walter Isaacson
Right.
- [44:48]
Kenny Chesney
I was a kid from East Tennessee. But Jimmy created space just like Bruce did and other people. In a way, Jimmy created space for my dream. Like Jimmy showed me. Jimmy had a really big dream, and it showed me that, wow, I could have a big dream, too. And that's when I started to get really creative and never knowing that I was going to have a place in the U.S. virgin Islands and spent a lot of time down there. But when I. When I did do that, I met a lot of people from a lot of different places, different religious beliefs, different political beliefs. They just didn't grow up like I did. A lot of them were from New England and from all over the world. And the longer I was down there, the more that I realized that I just don't have to make music for people that are in my. In the genre of country. I can make music for everyone. And that's. That's how much of a profound impact it had on me as an artist, as a creative person. And it really changed my life in a lot of ways.
- [45:48]
Walter Isaacson
I find that fascinating because different types of music are either very diverse and they bring things together and inclusive. I always thought, and forgive me for saying it, that country music didn't have quite as much diversity. But you're saying you're able to bring all that in?
- [46:05]
Kenny Chesney
Well, not all of it does. I mean, that's true. But for me, when I was first getting into the business, I was just trying to get my songs on the radio, and I was trying to do what worked right. I was just trying to get into the business at all, but I did that. But at the core of it, I knew that I wasn't making music that was truly authentic to me. And I. I truly believe that all of us, when we hear music, we like it to be authentic. And we're. And when it comes to music, we're all pretty much suckers for the truth. So I. When. When I was able to do that around 2002, I've been on the road since 1993, and I was doing exactly the same thing that everyone else was doing up until around 2001. And that's when my life changed. That's when I started being very authentic and. And realizing that, oh, wow, I didn't have to make music just for these people. I could make it for everybody. And that's when my music truly changed.
- [47:08]
Walter Isaacson
Well, what happens in 2002 is you come up with this great album, you know, no Shirt, no Shoes, no Problem. And it also has a Springsteen. You cover a Spring Scene song on it, did you? Is that where the change happens?
- [47:23]
Kenny Chesney
Yeah, yeah, that. It was that album, the no Shoes, no Shirt, no Problems album. And when I was in college, I heard Bruce's Tunnel of Love album, and I always felt like that it. That it spoke to me in a lot of different ways. And so I love the song One Step up and Two Steps Back. I absolutely. I still love it. It's one of my favorite songs. So I. When I. When I got to that place in my life that I was recording the no Shoes album, I felt like that it was possible that I had lived enough maybe to make that song authentic to me. And so I went in and recorded it. I was. I was proud of it. But my friend who.
- [48:03]
Walter Isaacson
And.
- [48:04]
Kenny Chesney
And my. The person that I co wrote this book with, Holly Gleason, she's been in my life a long time. And she urged me to send Bruce a copy of the song. And so I did, and never expecting anything. And about two weeks later, I got a. I got an unbelievable letter from Bruce thanking me for the care of his song. And that started a friendship with Bruce over the years. And that was just. It was just such an amazing thing because the fact that he even heard it at all was really thrilling.
- [48:37]
Walter Isaacson
We're speaking now right before Thanksgiving, and I think one of the greatest memories in your book is the Thanksgiving Day, where suddenly your family is saying, your mom is saying, and others saying, let's go to a concert. When I read about the concert, I went, whoa, that was a concert? Tell me about it.
- [48:53]
Kenny Chesney
That was. Yeah, so we always have Thanksgiving during the day, you know, and at night there's really nothing to do, which I've always thought was a genius thing for a concert promoter to have a concert on Thanksgiving night because everybody's looking for something to do. But that specific night, we went to see George Jones, Merle Haggard, and Con Twitty all in the same show all in our town, you know, of Knoxville, Tennessee. And we went, and I was. I was a kid, you know, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was playing basketball and baseball and football. I thought I wanted to be an athlete. And then I went and saw those guys, and I got to tell you, man, something changed inside of me. I went, oh, my God. That's what I want to do. I don't know how I could ever do that, but I saw the connection between the artist and the audience and how the audience reacted to the artist and just the synergy between the two.
- [49:44]
Christiane Amanpour
It was.
- [49:45]
Kenny Chesney
I. I don't know. There's something. It.
- [49:47]
Dmytro Kuleba
It.
- [49:47]
Kenny Chesney
That's another way it was. It was God tapping me on the shoulder, going, one day, maybe, you know, so. But I had no idea how. But I remember that night, I. I was going home, going, well, one day, hopefully.
- [50:00]
Walter Isaacson
I think lightning is what you call it.
- [50:02]
Kenny Chesney
Oh, I. Yeah, I just to see. To see that show and. Look, one of the things that. That I'm very thankful for close to Thanksgiving is that as a young person, you have all these people that you look up to and that you try to emulate and learn from, and then one day, you become actual friends with them on some level, you know, and create with them and share the stage with them. And there's a lot of those moments in this book, you know, but that just. That just like I said, when I got into high school, I loved Van Halen. I love George Strait. I love Joe Walsh. I love Steve Miller. I loved even the Wailers. Like, later on, I got to know a lot of those guys. And not Bob, obviously, because he died in the 80s.
- [50:48]
Christiane Amanpour
But.
- [50:49]
Kenny Chesney
But my career and my. My musical life has been filled with people that I loved early on that I got to meet. And not everybody can say that. I mean, it was just. There's so many people that championed me in a small way that I never thought would even know me on any level, and I'm very thankful for that.
- [51:11]
Walter Isaacson
You write something about songwriting, which I'm going to quote you, if you don't mind, which is. The job is to take a slice of life, write all about it, slice it down to what matters, and cut that feeling wide open. Is there a song of yours that you think exemplifies that?
- [51:26]
Kenny Chesney
Well, that's a. A hard thing to do. I saw. I talk about it, you know, and it's. There was. There's several songs that. That I wrote. There's a song called I Go Back that I Wrote on a bus rolling through Colorado one night. And that's one of my favorite songs I ever wrote. I wrote it by myself. The one that I truly am proud of, though. And a lot of people think, just because of the nature of the title, it's called Beer in Mexico, but they think it's a drinking song, but it's not. Some critics would dismissed it because they thought it was just a drinking song. But that was a true snapshot of my soul at the time. Sammy Hagar. I met Sammy on a night off in Columbus, Ohio. Van Halen was playing the same arena that we were playing the next night. And I met Sammy. He was great to us, and he invited me to come play his birthday party later on that year. And so we did, and. But there was something that was stirring inside my soul. Now, this is an example of how you write songs as you live them. You know, I was something. Was. I was 36 years old. All of my friends had had their thought. They had their life figured out and family, kids. I did. I wasn't there yet. And I was like going, okay, well, is there something wrong with me? And then I went back to the house where Sammy got us a place to stay. I pulled my guitar out and a notepad, and I just started writing down all the things I was feeling. And by the time the band got back, I had written. I'd almost finished Beer in Mexico. And it was a true snapshot of my soul at the time. And that's one of the few songs that I've written where that was that authentically true. A lot of stuff is that we hear on the radio, and I've done it is made up, and it feels good, it sounds good, and I like that. But Beer in Mexico was one of those. An example of what you were talking about, of just shouting, shredding it all down, and giving people a snapshot of your soul.
- [53:46]
Walter Isaacson
Tell me about being inducted in the Country Music hall of Fame.
- [53:49]
Kenny Chesney
It's being inducted into the Country Music hall of Fame. It still blows my mind. I mean, for a long time. It took me a minute to accept it. Honestly. I have been so busy for so long, and I've never took the time to sit in accomplishment that much. I don't. I just don't do it. And for them to get that call, and not only did I get the call, they came to my house to tell me. It was almost like winning the lottery, I guess. You know, they came to my front door and told me, and it took me forever to accept it. Even to the day of the induction. And all of a sudden, though, there's something about walking into that rotunda where all these plaques are on the wall of some of your friends and a lot of your heroes, people that inspired you. And when you walk into that room and they say, as a Hall of Famer, it hit you. I mean, I promise you it hit me. And then you take a group shot with all the litig members, and all of a sudden you're in that group, and I promise you, it hit me then. And I promise you, that picture is going to be really big in my house. I still can't believe it, though. I can't. But one of the things that was really great, you know, I was. I'm 57, and I was able to sit right beside. I had my mother and my father sitting right beside me. And that was a gift. That's a real gift. You know, that's one of the few pictures that we actually have together, and it's a great one.
- [55:17]
Walter Isaacson
Kenny Chesney. Hey, thank you so much for joining us, man.
- [55:21]
Kenny Chesney
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.
- [55:25]
Christiane Amanpour
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. So thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
- [55:46]
Kenny Chesney
Green beans?
- [55:47]
Christiane Amanpour
Check.
- [55:48]
Kenny Chesney
Cranberries? Got those.
- [55:49]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay.
- [55:50]
Kenny Chesney
Turkey sale or organic?
- [55:52]
Christiane Amanpour
Welcome to paging Dr. Gupta.
- [55:54]
Walter Isaacson
I am back again to answer your.
- [55:56]
Kenny Chesney
Health questions and more while I'm shopping for Thanksgiving. It's nice to have advice I can trust.
- [56:01]
Christiane Amanpour
That's why I'm listening to Chasing Life from cnn.
- [56:04]
Walter Isaacson
How do you know if something that.
- [56:05]
Kenny Chesney
Is labeled as organic is really organic?
- [56:08]
Christiane Amanpour
And while I'm zigzagging through the aisles dodging stray cans of cranberry sauce, CNN five Things is helping me plan the.
- [56:14]
Kenny Chesney
Best route for my holiday travel.
- [56:17]
Christiane Amanpour
Air travel site going.com projects US domestic flights over Thanksgiving week will cost at least 6% more this year than last year. Nothing says Thanksgiving spirit like dodging traffic.
- [56:28]
Kenny Chesney
Follow Chasing Life and CNN five Things wherever you get your podcasts.