Former US Ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour

Episode: Former US Ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith
Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Bianna Golodryga (for Christiane Amanpour)
Guests: Julianne Smith, Lyn Harfouch, Nicholas Lemann

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on three interlinked global crises: the ongoing war between the US/Israel and Iran, Israel’s escalation in Lebanon, and the broader strains these conflicts are placing on transatlantic alliances and European security. Interviews with Julianne Smith (former US Ambassador to NATO) and Lyn Harfouch (Lebanese political activist) explore the NATO-EU-US relationship, shifting paradigms in Lebanese society regarding Hezbollah and Israeli occupation, and the shifting position of Ukraine as both aid recipient and security provider. The program closes with a reflective discussion between Walter Isaacson and Nicholas Lemann on Jewish identity, antisemitism, and the meaning of assimilation in the current climate.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. US–NATO Rift Over the Iran Conflict

[02:25–04:44; 05:52–08:07]

Discussion Points:

• US frustration with European NATO allies for not joining the US-Israel campaign in Iran.
• President Trump’s social media declaration that Europe "will have to start learning how to fight for yourself."
• No formal NATO coordination or consultations prior to US intervention in Iran.
• European allies "shocked" by US allegations of insufficient support, since the US acted unilaterally.
• Historical reminder: Only time Article 5 invoked was after 9/11, in support of the US.

Notable Quotes:

“For Secretary Hegseth to suggest that NATO allies are not showing up is something that a lot of Europeans find shocking. This is an intervention, a war, a conflict that the US began. It didn’t consult with its European allies.”
— Julianne Smith [03:18]

“Europeans find it a bit incredulous... that the US President would suggest that NATO allies have never been willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States when it’s been under attack. The facts simply don’t prove that to be true.”
— Julianne Smith [05:52]

Context/Tone:

Smith stresses the confusion and frustration among European allies, who had no forewarning or formal ask from the US, and now face pressure while the mission's objectives remain unclear.

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2. Ukraine’s New Role & The Russia-Iran Nexus

[10:01–13:44]

Discussion Points:

• Ukraine’s shift from security consumer to security provider: training Gulf states on drone defense.
• Ukraine exchanges its expertise for financial support and high-value missiles/interceptors.
• Growing intelligence on possible Russian electronic warfare support to Iran, enabled via the Russia-Iran partnership.
• US downplays direct Russian threat, but Smith warns against underestimating the Moscow-Tehran axis.

Notable Quotes:

“Ukraine now has transitioned to become a security provider... exchanging cheap drones for very high-priced missiles and interceptors, which they desperately need.”
— Julianne Smith [10:48]

“We have to take the Russia-Iranian relationship very seriously... This is something that we should watch very closely and not underestimate the deepening relationship between Moscow and Tehran.”
— Julianne Smith [12:56]

Context/Tone:

Smith describes Ukraine’s strategic agility and clever pivot in the international arms-and-intelligence marketplace; she also highlights emerging risks from the Russia-Iran connection and calls for US attention to this “proxy battle.”

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3. The Energy War and Pressure on Ukraine

[13:44–17:13]

Discussion Points:

• Energy prices are spiking globally as a result of the Iran war.
• Zelensky claims Western allies are pressuring him to halt strikes on Russian oil infrastructure to avoid further destabilizing global energy markets.
• Smith outlines European worries about energy shocks from both the Iran and Ukraine wars, and the conflicting priorities among NATO allies.
• Zelensky’s argument: Hitting Russian oil infrastructure pressures Putin into negotiations as Russia profits from Iran war-induced oil price surges.

Notable Quotes:

“It’s complicated. Europe has reduced its dependency on Russian oil and gas since the war in Ukraine started. But some countries do still rely on that and may find themselves in the future turning to Russia for energy.”
— Julianne Smith [14:33]

“Zelenskyy’s thinking is... he’s trying to imagine ways in which he personally can put added pressure on Moscow to get them to the negotiating table and feel like they’re losing.”
— Julianne Smith [16:09]

Context/Tone:

The tension between military strategy and economic fallout is palpable, as Ukraine’s Western allies ask Kyiv for moderation to protect their own economies, even at Ukraine’s tactical expense.

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4. Lebanon: Civilian Caught Between Israel and Hezbollah

[24:26–37:22]

Discussion Points:

• Israeli military pressing deeper into Lebanon, creating a “security zone”; over 1 million Lebanese displaced.
• Lyn Harfouch describes her journey from Hezbollah supporter to outspoken critic, citing their shift from defenders to proxies serving only Iranian interests.
• Harfouch condemns both Hezbollah’s dominance and any Israeli occupation.
• The perils for civilians, journalists, and peacekeepers in southern Lebanon: no safe zones, blurred lines between combatants and non-combatants.
• The weakness of the Lebanese state, highlighted by its failed expulsion of Iran’s ambassador, is discussed as fatal but not irreversible, tied to Hezbollah’s undermining of state authority.
• The only solution, according to Harfouch: Restore and empower the Lebanese state and its armed forces as the sole legitimate authority and security guarantor.

Notable Quotes:

“With time, we came to realize that Hezbollah was actually an Iranian armed militia acting for... Iran’s interests. The 2006 war, specifically, after we returned... we saw how Hezbollah started acting... with excessive power.”
— Lyn Harfouch [24:26]

“This is our land. But... South Lebanon became in practice a part of Iran’s security sphere through Hezbollah. This too is unacceptable to us.”
— Lyn Harfouch [26:27]

“What we need right now is sustained and serious support to the Lebanese Armed Forces, which are the sole legitimate military institution with the credibility to unite the Lebanese people... the only way for people to actually believe that the state is capable of fighting against [Hezbollah].”
— Lyn Harfouch [33:50]

Context/Tone:

Harfouch strikes a delicate balance: unequivocally critical of both Hezbollah and Israeli incursions, she argues for Lebanese sovereignty, unity, and a strengthened, supported state.

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5. Jewish Identity, Assimilation, and Israel in a Troubled Era

[38:50–53:18]

Discussion Points:

• Nicholas Lemann discusses his family memoir, grappling with Jewish assimilation experiences across generations.
• The complexities of assimilation, belonging, and outsider status, both in America and in historical Germany.
• Rise in antisemitism in the West post-October 7, 2023, and the difficult position for Jews regarding their relationship to Israel.
• Internal Jewish debates on Zionism, identity, and community, especially on US campuses.
• Lemann’s closing affirmation of the joy and meaning found in Jewish faith and practice despite contemporary strife.

Notable Quotes:

“There’s two sides to the story. One is, would the rest of the world let us join? And the other is, what would we lose if we did join?”
— Nicholas Lemann [44:43]

“I love being Jewish. It’s a source of wonderful enrichment and joy and meaning in my life... I don’t want to feel like the debates about our place in the world vitiates the meaning of prayer and observance and community, because it doesn’t.”
— Nicholas Lemann [52:23]

Context/Tone:

A personal, reflective conversation on identity, belonging, faith, and the current climate of antisemitism, offering hopeful closure despite ongoing societal divisions.

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Highlighted Timestamps

• NATO-US Tensions over Iran: [03:18–05:52]
• Ukraine as Security Provider; Russia-Iran Link: [10:01–13:44]
• Energy Crisis and Western Pressures on Kyiv: [13:44–16:09]
• Israel-Lebanon Conflict & Civilian Perspective: [24:26–37:22]
• Jewish Identity, Assimilation, and Antisemitism: [38:50–53:18]

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Memorable Quotes

“You don’t have much of an alliance if you have countries that are not willing to stand with you when you need them.”
— Julianne Smith [02:25]

“Hezbollah’s primary enemy is not really Israel. It is the Lebanese state itself.”
— Lyn Harfouch [31:26]

“It’s a tough time, not just because of the antisemitism, but... the internal questioning of how to do citizenship in the US and other countries. Is assimilation a good idea? Are you accepted in the wider world? Those are all really tough questions.”
— Nicholas Lemann [46:17]

“I love being Jewish... It’s a real high point. I don’t want to feel like the debates about our place in the world vitiates the meaning of prayer and observance and community, because it doesn’t.”
— Nicholas Lemann [52:23]

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Summary Takeaways

• The US-NATO rift is not just about lack of military alignment but deep miscommunication and unclarity on strategy and objectives.
• Ukraine is leveraging its wartime experience to reposition itself as a resource for others, all while being pressured to self-limit military actions for the sake of allied economies.
• In Lebanon, vast civilian hardship is compounded by the binary choice between foreign occupation and proxy militia rule, fueling calls for a sovereign and empowered state.
• The Jewish American experience, especially post-October 7, is shadowed by the dual challenges of combating antisemitism and reconciling identity in a polarized era—but retains the enduring value of faith and communal belonging.

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This summary captures the episode’s major themes and specific moments, using direct speaker quotes and timestamps for maximum clarity and context.

Transcript

[Lyn Harfouch]

FOREIGN

[Bianna Golodriga]

hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[Jim Sciuto]

The upcoming days will be decisive.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Iran knows that.

[Walter Isaacson]

And there's almost nothing they can militarily do about it.

[Bianna Golodriga]

US Ground troops heading to the Middle east as gas prices hit $4 a gallon. How long will the Iran war go on? I'm joined by former US NATO Ambassador Julianne Smith, then in Lebanon.

[Walter Isaacson]

I've just instructed to further expand the existing security zone in in order to decisively thwart the threat of invasion.

[Bianna Golodriga]

The Israeli military pushes forward with military operations in Lebanon. Correspondent Jim Sciuto reports from northern Israel.

[Lyn Harfouch]

And I am here to tell you that millions of Lebanese, including many Shiites, want a different future.

[Bianna Golodriga]

From Beirut, I speak with Lyn Harfouch, a political activist who came of age in Hezbollah controlled southern Lebanon.

[Walter Isaacson]

Plus, I love being Jewish. It's a source of wonderful enrichment and joy and meaning in my life.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Walter Isaacson talks with veteran journalist Nicholas Lemon about his rediscovery of faith and family. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga, New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. Crude oil prices spiked after an Iranian attack on a Kuwaiti tanker off Dubai, hitting a world economy already reeling from the fallout of the war. And while Europe deals with its second major energy shock in less than five years, the White House is venting its frustration with them. This morning, President Trump posted a message to European allies saying, quote, you'll have to start learning how to fight for yourself. The USA won't be there to help you anymore. Just like you, you weren't there for us. And in a press conference today, when asked if the US is still committed to NATO's collective defense, defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said that's up to President Trump. When we ask for additional assistance or

[Walter Isaacson]

simple access basing overflight, we get questions

[Bianna Golodriga]

or roadblocks or hesitations. And the president is pointing out you

[Julianne Smith]

don't have much of an alliance if

[Bianna Golodriga]

you have countries that are not willing to stand with you when you need them. The economic and military fallout from Iran is adding even more pressure to Ukraine's war effort. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says that he's received messages from some of Ukraine's partners urging him to scale back attacks on Russia's energy infrastructure. So what's the best course for Iran and NATO in the face of White House pressure? Joining me now to discuss, Julianne Smith, who served as U.S. ambassador to NATO under President Biden. Julianne, it's good to see you welcome back to program. So let's go back to what we heard from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth once again laying into NATO this morning at his press briefing there alongside the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Knowing European leadership the way you do, how do you think they interpreted his comments?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, my guess isand in speaking with a couple of folks in Europe already just in the last hour, what I think we can expect is a lot of shock on the other side of the Atlantic. I mean, for Secretary Hegseth to suggest that NATO allies are not showing up is something that a lot of Europeans I think find shocking. This is an intervention, a war, a conflict that the US Began. It didn't consult with its European allies. It did not take any information about this intervention to NATO, to the NATO allies to warn them that there could be asks coming from the United States. And suddenly, about a month into the conflict, now the administration, administration is expressing enormous frustration that the European allies are simply not showing up. Now, what has happened in recent weeks is that 22 nations, both in the Indo Pacific and Europe, have issued statements saying that when the violence stops, when the conflict stops, they are willing to look at ways to help monitor and maintain safety and safe passage in the Strait of Hormuz. But right now, no European leader is expressing any willingness to join the United States in this conflict, that it started on its own with Israel.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Right. And we heard as much from Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Friday as he was departing from a meeting with his counterparts in Paris at the G7 and saying that the United States does not need NATO's help right now. What he did talk to those leaders about, however, was the day after and how to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, saying that that is going to be largely their problem as well. I do want to ask you, though, because the narrat that the White House is putting out there, whether it's accurate or not, is that when the United States was in a time of need or was in a military confrontation, that its allies in NATO did not come to its defense. And this is a point that President Trump had even speculated about over the last few months, especially into his second term, saying that the United States has always been there for NATO. The question is whether the NATO allies will be there for the United States. Do you think that the NATO members, at least publicly, looking back, could have or should have responded differently in the first few days of this conflict?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, first of all, let's review a little bit of history. So the NATO alliance has been around for 76 years. And there's a clause in the treaty that says when one ally is attacked, all the other allies will come to their aid. That's Article 5 in the Washington Treaty. The only time that NATO has invoked Article 5 of the Washington Treaty was after 9 11. The United States was obviously attacked that day and NATO allies stood up and came to the aid of the United States and joined US in a 20 year mission in Afghanistan. So Europeans find it a bit incredulous, they are in shock, that the United States President would suggest that Europe has never been, that NATO allies have never, never been willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States when it's been under attack. The facts simply don't prove that to be true. Now, in terms of what's happened over the last month, if the United States had gone to NATO allies, to individual countries, I really in truth don't see this as a NATO mission. But they could have consulted with our European allies through NATO channels. You can sit down with all 31 members, talk to them. If we had briefed them on the operation, if we had walked through various contingencies, if we had made certain requests in advance that we wanted their assistance with the Strait, with intelligence, anything, I think Europeans would have been a little bit open minded. But where the Europeans were frustrated is when they had to read about this in the newspaper. There weren't any consultations in advance. And they also feel quite confused, to be honest, about what is the actual objective of this mission. Are we going after Iranian missiles? Are we going after Iran's nuclear capabilities? Is it regime change? Is it to get the oil as the President suggested just a couple of days ago? And I think that also makes it hard for the Europeans, or frankly any country around the world, to really join in, in the effort if there's not a fundamental understanding of what the United States is trying to do. And that objective seems to change by the hour, sometimes by the day, depending on which US Official you're actually hearing from.

[Bianna Golodriga]

So set aside whether the Europeans should have or weren't consulted ahead of this operation and war in Iran, the drumbeats were pretty loud though, in the last few months. I mean, I remember as we were focused on the crisis over Greenland, and this was when the President was in Davos at the start of this year, we'd already seen troops amassing and sort of a buildup there of US Assets in the region. Are you surprised that European leaders, from their own security perspect, weren't prepared more for this possibility?

[Julianne Smith]

My sense is that the Leaders in Europe were closely monitoring the situation. They could obviously see the buildup of U.S. forces. They were monitoring the rhetoric coming out of the White House and other agencies across Washington. But they didn't hear any requests coming from the United States. Certainly. My guess is that behind closed doors they were asking themselves where they might be asked for assistance. Things like mine clearing or intelligence sharing or counter drone assistance. Although there, that's where the Ukrainians actually can play a greater role than many European allies. But because there was never any sort of outreach towards Europe and not a clear indication as to what the objectives were, I think the Europeans had a hard time lining up possible forms of assistance. But also, let's be clear here, there are a number of opinions about what's happening in Iran across Europe. There are some countries that see utility in it. They're glad to see the degraded Iranian missile capabilities and they were thankful for the fact that the United States took action with the Israelis. There are others that feel the opposite way. There are countries that are deeply uneasy about what the US Is doing. So talking about Europe is complicated because there are a variety of views across the continent.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah. And a number of countries within this alliance as well. You mentioned President Zelenskyy and his role in the war in Iran. Obviously a lot of concern in Ukraine about what that means for that war now into its fifth year. And we did see President Zelenskyy travel to the region and met with leaders there in the region, even striking deals with them. He's claiming that Gulf nations, Bahrain, Oman, they're formally requesting Ukraine's expertise on defeating in particular the Iranian shahed drones. Has Ukraine's battlefield intelligence sudd become a crucial asset for America's operation, regardless of what US Officials are saying publicly about that?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, it's really an interesting moment for Ukraine because over the last couple of years they've really been described as a security consumer, that they need our help, they need Europe's help, they need the United States help, many countries around the world to help them defend their territory against Russian aggression. What's changed in the past couple of days is that Ukraine now has transitioned to become a security provider providing expertise and training to countries in the Gulf. We've seen them send about 200 experts to the region to help the Gulf countries understand what this drone threat could look like going forward and how they can better guard themselves against those types of drone attacks. Also, the Ukrainians very cleverly are signing long term defense cooperation agreements with the leaders in Saudi Arabia, in Qatar, in the UAE, etc. And what they're getting out of that is they're exchanging cheap drones for very high priced missiles and interceptors, which they desperately need, as well as some financial support. So I think President Zelensky has managed this quite well. And he's also tried to provide the United States and the Gulf countries with some intelligence that he's picking up on. For example, there's some evidence that Russia is providing some targeting assistance to the Iranians that's enabling them to go after U.S. troops. And that's something that Zelenskyy has been trying to make clear to US Officials as well as countries in the region.

[Lyn Harfouch]

Right.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And the response to that claim that Russia is providing intelligence and assisting Iran here is only getting pushback by the United States not denying it, but by saying, and I'm going to quote what Secretary Rubio said, that Russia is doing nothing to impede our operations. Are we underestimating the direct military threat that Russia could pose to US Operations in Iran? I mean, are we in a sense, perhaps even in a proxy battle at this point?

[Julianne Smith]

I think we have to take the Russia Iranian relationship very seriously. Let's not forget that when Russia started the war in Ukraine, Iran provided direct military assistance. They provided them with those shahed drones as well as missiles that have been very important to Russia's campaign on the ground. Now, in a sign of perhaps returning the favor, there's some evidence that Russia is providing some EW assistance, electronic warfare, and that potentially they're going to be sending upgraded shaheds that they're now producing in Russia to Iran. So this cannot be underestimated. This is something that we should watch very closely and not underestimate the deepening relationship between Moscow and Tehran.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah, and there's also concerns as this war is entering its fifth week, whether there will be US Weapons that had been on their way to Europe to then go to Ukraine that are now being diverted for the United States and its stockpile. I do want to ask about the consequences of this war thus far, not just on the battlefield and on the war in Ukraine, but obviously for the economy overall, the spike in energy prices. And President Zelenskyy is saying that Western allies, so this leads one to believe that it's more than one country, are actively pressuring Kyiv to halt strikes on Russian oil facilities to protect the global energy price. So how does a coalition function if their goal is to help Ukraine, but basically right now telling Ukraine to continue fighting your war with one hand tied behind your back?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, the strikes deep inside Russia have always been a Bit controversial. There are a number of views across the NATO alliance on the degree to which the Ukrainians should be using long range weapons to target Russia hundreds of kilometers inside its territory. Whether you're talking about energy infrastructure or cities themselves or even defense production lately, what we've seen is that the Ukrainians quite cleverly have been able to reach ever deeper into Russian territory and now they are actively in some cases going after energy infrastructure. I think the question for Europe that they believe they're going to feel the shock, the energy shock of this war in Iran, quote, quite soon, possibly in weeks as now, Asia is already feeling that they are wondering whether or not Ukraine going after those facilities will only make the situation much worse. It's complicated. Europe has reduced its dependency on Russian oil and gas since the war in Ukraine started. But some countries do still rely on that and may find themselves in the future turning to Russia for energy and

[Bianna Golodriga]

quickly just to follow up on that. It's complicated, I know, as you said. But President Zelenskyy doesn't seem to be willing to back off with this strategy because in his view he's saying this is hurting Vladimir Putin where he thinks this could actually be the most vulnerable position for Putin if this goes on longer to bring him to serious negotiations. What do you make of that argument?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, Zelenskyy's thinking is, look, Russia right now is seeing a huge windfall in its oil revenues. I mean, it has completely reversed the situation. The oil revenue earnings that Russia had in the month of February were quite low historically compared to the past. And now we've seen a complete reversal of fortune in that Russia now is benefiting from this war in Iran. And so I think for Zelensky, he's trying to imagine ways in which he personally can put added pressure on Moscow to get them to the negotiations, negotiating table and feel like they're losing. He obviously is in a very different position than the countries that are supporting him right now. But I think that's the logic of his thinking on going after these energy facilities. And let's not forget Russia has very aggressively gone after Ukraine's infrastructure and its energy facilities for many years and hasn't held back in any regard from doing so over the last couple of years.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Years, yeah. Ukrainian drone strikes have knocked out Russia's principal Baltic oil terminals and that has proven to be quite costly for Russia. Thank you so much. Julianne Smith. We'll have to leave it there. Really appreciate the time. Good to see you.

[Julianne Smith]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And do stay with cnn. We'll be Right back after a break. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. Just as a reminder of how important

[Lyn Harfouch]

and landmark this trial was, so many people have said for years this was

[Bianna Golodriga]

impossible, that it was impossible to sue

[Lyn Harfouch]

social media companies for harms against children.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Two advocates and moms themselves, Nikki Petrossi, who hosts the podcast Scrolling to Death, and Sarah Gardner, CEO and founder of the advocacy organization the Heat Initiative.

[Lyn Harfouch]

I never imagined that we would get all yeses on the verdict form and even get to the damages form.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And this is the first time that juries of regular Americans have been asked to render decisions on youth safety on social media. And they found that these companies knew

[Lyn Harfouch]

that their platforms were risky and posed

[Bianna Golodriga]

real harms to young people. Listen to CNN's terms of service wherever

[Lyn Harfouch]

you get your podcasts.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Now as war in Iran dominates global news coverage, Israel's military is escal its war in Lebanon. More than 1,000 people have been killed by Israeli strikes, including at least 125 children and some 52 health care workers, according to the Lebanese health ministry. And France called for an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council after two UN Peacekeepers were killed in southern Lebanon on Monday. Israel says Hezbollah was responsible. And we learned today that four Israeli soldiers were killed in combat with Hezbollah. Ten have died so far in the latest offensive in northern Israel. Residents welcome Israel's push to secure the border from Hezbollah attacks, as correspondent Jim Sciuto reports.

[Walter Isaacson]

Okay, let's go to the okay.

[Jim Sciuto]

It's a fact of life on Israel's northern border that incoming Hezbollah fire comes frequently and without. So this is life up in the north. They say about 40 warnings like that a day. We just had two of them in the span of five minutes. Combination of rockets, sometimes anti tank missiles, but also increasingly drones. And some of them can't be intercepted. The kibbutz Kufar Galadi lies just about a mile from the border with Lebanon. After the October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks, Israel evacuated communities like these. But during this war they're staying. You know, our children in a shelter for more than 29 days in a shelter not allowing to go out, you know, all the economic ecosystem collapse. What's different now is that Israeli forces are pushing into southern Lebanon. They say to push Hezbollah further back

[Walter Isaacson]

at the hills past the wall.

[Jim Sciuto]

You would have seen this company commander. The IDF only allows us to identify him as Captain M regularly leads operations inside Lebanon. What leads you to go across? Is it a particular threat or is it just establishing a regular presence?

[Walter Isaacson]

It's a bit of both. More often than not, it's a concrete threat that we'll get from the intelligence that we have, have terrorists that are trying to come near the border, that we have ammunition that is stored somewhere, that there are tunnels that are still around, whatever it is.

[Jim Sciuto]

Visiting the north himself Sunday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced Israeli forces would push even further into Lebanon.

[Walter Isaacson]

In Lebanon, I have just instructed to further expand the existing security zone in order to decisively thwart the threat of invasion and to push anti tank missile fire away from our border.

[Jim Sciuto]

It's a move that Zivi and other northern residents welcome.

[Lyn Harfouch]

This time the IDF actually did what

[Jim Sciuto]

us, the civil society that settled here years ago, expect them to do, which is to go in front of us, not behind us. We cannot be the first line with his back. The Israeli government now speaks of military operations all the way up to the latani river some 20 miles into Lebanese territory to create this so called buffer zone. Israel has now forced hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians from their homes in the southern part of the country. And yet Hezbollah fire continues. Today, the IDF is prepared to operate inside Lebanon for as long as they are ordered to.

[Walter Isaacson]

I can tell you that when we get an order, we will do whatever we need to do. And I think, and I want to believe that the army will make decisions for what is best for the Israeli civilians that live here.

[Jim Sciuto]

The questions for Israel are how much further into Lebanon and for how long? For now, Israeli officials leave those questions unanswered.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Our thanks to Jim Sciuth reporting there. Well, Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz reiterated today that Israel will position itself in a security zone south of the Litany river in Lebanon and stay there after the current operation ends. What will that mean for the people who live inside the planned security zone? Katz says that more than 600,000 evacuated residents will be prohibited from returning until northern Israel is declared safe and that homes and villages near the border will be destroyed to remove threats. Citing the IDF model in Gaza, political activist Lynne Harfouch grew up in Beirut's southern suburbs in a region controlled by Hezbollah. Though she once supported the militant group, she now opposes them while also opposing Israeli occupation. And she joins me now from Beirut. Lynn Harfouch, welcome to the program. Before we get to the current war right now and conflict another one between Hezbollah and Israel, I do want to tell our audience a little bit more about you and your backstory. You recently spoke at the UN Security Council a few weeks ago and noted that you grew up knowing nothing except for Hezbollah's hegemony. And you once supported them and now you are openly opposed to them. You told the Security Council that after the 2006 war, the mask fell off. You had returned to your destroyed neighborhood and realized Hezbollah was exploiting le and the citizens there, including your family, for an expansionist project. So was that the turning point for you some 20 years ago? And just walk us through where you stand today.

[Lyn Harfouch]

Hello, and thank you very much for having me. Yes, as I mentioned in my speech in front of the Security Council, I grew up in Beirut's southern suburb, which had Hezbollah's hegemony over it and over the entire Shaid community. It was normal for us to think that Hezbollah was a resistance, saving us from Israeli oppression. However, with time, we came to realize that Hezbollah was actually an Iranian armed militia acting for what's the best of Iran's interest and the 2006 war specifically. After we returned and we saw our homes down and we saw how Hezbollah started acting within the community with a certain excess of force and excessive power. And then we observed Hezbollah trying to pull our Shiite community away from all the other communities, triggering inner conflict and making us believe that they were coming for us and making us think that they are the only protectors refusing the idea of the state. We came to realize that Hezbollah was in fact the problem and that it had been dragging us into wars. And over the past 20 years, I've been quite a fierce opposition of Hezbollah and its hegemony over the community. And it has proved to us over and over again that what it considers foremost important is Iranian interests and not the Lebanese ones.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And yet you also note your opposition to an Israeli occupation and as I've just noted, the Israeli Defense Minister saying that he has now unveiled plans for southern Lebanon similar to the operations in Gaza, proposing 15 to 20 mile security buffer. Over a million Lebanese citizens, that's some 20% of the population, would be displaced. Just walk us through what that reality would look like and does look like already for that portion of the community.

[Lyn Harfouch]

We are currently in one of the worst times of Lebanon. There is more than 1 million people displaced who are at the risk of losing their homes eternally. And this is very dangerous. In fact, the Israeli forces are moving even more forward towards the south. And this means that entire villages are at risk of being completely wiped out. In reality, what does this mean for us? We cannot be okay with the Israeli occupation, but this does not mean that we are accepting Hezbollah's hegemony over this south. In reality, and between 1978 and 2000. From the first Israeli invasion to the full withdrawal, Lebanon endured 22 years of occupation. During that time, the south of Lebanon was effectively integrated into Israel's national security doctrine. This is a reality that we refuse to relive. This is our land. But there is also another period that we must also reject, which is the period from 2000 until 2023, the time when Hezbollah opened what ended. It is called the support front for Hamas. Then South Lebanon became in practice a part of Iran's security sphere through Hezbollah. This too is unacceptable to us. Hezbollah has operated as an armed extension of Iranian strategy, particularly in the south, gradually entangling Lebanon in regional conflicts that do not serve its national interest. Today, with more than 1 million people displaced, these people have the right to retire, return to their homes under full Lebanese state authority. This displacement cannot be permanent. Nor can we continue to expose civilians, paramedics and journalists to the ongoing Israeli danger gap.

[Bianna Golodriga]

You mentioned journalists. Three Lebanese journalists were killed in what Israel claims was a targeted strike, saying one of the journalists was a Hezbollah intelligence operative. But no proof was actually presented to validate that claim. What does this mean for the safety of journalists there and for UNIFIL workers? We know that were killed as well and are in harm's way as this war only escalates.

[Lyn Harfouch]

In reality, this means that there is no such thing as safe area and there is no such thing as people who are excluded from this war. Israel has been committing hideous crimes against the Lebanese civilians and journalists included. It claims that this journalist is part of Hezbollah militia. And this is not something that I'm here to discuss, but rather many other journalists have also been part of this. Have also been part of this, this Israeli aggression. So basically, in reality, it is coming after journalists. This is something we completely disagree and of regardless what political opinion this journalist has. As for the UN peacekeepers, we know that both Hezbollah and Israel have been against the UN peacekeepers. And we are very sorry that more lives have to be sacrificed in this turmoil, especially that this is not our war. But it is the war of Iran and Israel and the Lebanese people are being held captive of this conflict. The UN peacekeepers had a sole purpose of restoring peace. And this is the objective that we also want right now.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah, let me play sound from Danny Dunan, who is Israel's ambassador to the United nations, in response to the killing of the UNIFIL workers.

[Walter Isaacson]

Regarding the attack that took place yesterday, March 30th. We can confirm now that uniform forces were here hit by Hezbollah explosive devices

[Jim Sciuto]

in an incident Near Bani Ayan in southern Lebanon. Israel did not choose this conflict.

[Walter Isaacson]

Hezbollah did.

[Bianna Golodriga]

So without digging too deep into the blame game here, I think what's important to focus on, Lyn, is the party that has been absent thus far in our conversation, and that is the Lebanese government itself. As you've mentioned, and as you've noted, more and more Lebanese citizens are becoming disillusioned, frustrated, angry at Hezbollah for what they see as being a branch and an arm of Iran, focused more on Iran's demands and needs than its own people. And the Lebanese government took an unprecedented step in designating Iran's ambassador Persona non grata. He's flat out refused to leave. Does this expose a weakness, a fatal weakness? Because we know that the authority has been weak. But the fact that he won't leave, how detrimental is that to the Lebanese government's leadership in authority?

[Lyn Harfouch]

Unfortunately, this is yet another time where Hezbollah stands against the state. Yes, it does expose a certain weakness, but it is not a fatal one. And we still believe that the state in all of its institutions is the only solution to this we war. But what is most important to learn from this, from whether this incident or all the other incidents that have happened in terms of confrontation between Hezbollah and the state, is that Hezbollah's primary enemy is not really Israel. It is the Lebanese state itself. Because its strong and functioning state is capable of ensuring security, stability, negotiating Israel's withdrawal and protecting all Lebanese citizens equal, equally. But if such a state were to fully emerge, then what role would remain for Hezbollah? It's very justification to exist will go away. And this is why Hezbollah continuously fuels internal divisions and undermines state institutions and figures through confrontations like the one it did for the Iranian ambassador. Hezbollah, Venezuela thrives in conditions of conflict, both domestic and external. And its reliance on ongoing tension helps explain its repeated role in dragging Lebanon into wars that we did not choose, as well as its persistent defiance of state authority.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Then there's the question of what role the United States can play here. And you've argued that supporting the Lebanese armed forces isn't charity. It's a necessary investment in regional and stability. And there are those, there are many, even Israeli analysts who view this expanded operation as a bad idea from Israel's perspective and their own security. But there is the argument that we've heard time and time again that the reality shows only the IDF can aggressively tackle and fight against Hezbollah and weaken it to a place, place or willing to fight and weaken it to a place that then the Lebanese armed forces can take over from do you agree with that argument? And what will it take to get there? Why is the Lebanese army not doing more here?

[Lyn Harfouch]

Well, no, I do not agree with this theory because I believe that Hezbollah's rebellious against the state, needs an end needs to be put to that by the state. It's now, of course, there is a role that the international community can play and that the US can play. And this is something that I mentioned in my speech and this is something I say again, we cannot accept for Lebanese interests to be compromised on. Again. This has happened before during the negotiations of the nuclear deal and when international actors chose to overlook Iran's proxies and the networks that they sustain. Unfortunately, Lebanon can cannot bear to be sidelined again. What we need right now is sustained and serious support to the Lebanese Armed forces, which are the sole legitimate military institution with the credibility to unite the Lebanese people. And strengthening this army is not optional, but it is the essential thing to restore the sovereignty and the stability of this country. The state has taken very important decisions and now it is a matter of implementation. And for this implementation to happen, all the state institutions, its military, its diplomatic and its social institutions need the maximum support there is, because what we are battling against is a militia supported by Iran. And the state alone cannot do it. We have limited resources and unfortunately we are in one of the worst financial crises ever. We need to act upon. But at the same time, we also need guarantees that Israel will fully withdraw from the Lebanese territory. We will not give up or compromise an inch of our land just because Hezbollah decided to turn it into a battlefield. And the state is the only one that is capable of accomplishing that?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Is there still among the population, and specifically the population most affected by this current cycle of violence and potentially being removed from their homes and displaced again? Is there still faith and support in the current Lebanese government, as weak as it is, that these are in fact the actors, the people starting from President Aoun, who you have trust in, still working to bring this to a peaceful resolution or a ceasefire.

[Lyn Harfouch]

The way to regain the government's trust is to show some concrete actions. The fact is, Israel's plan and its occupation of the south is really not building the case. And it is causing this population that is mostly affected by the displacement to feel that Hezbollah is their only resort of protection. And this is very dangerous because what the Israeli occupation is doing right now is it is re legitimizing the existence of of Hezbollah. What needs to happen for all of the population to restore its faith in the government is concrete actions. The Lebanese armed forces need to start dismantling Hezbollah. And this means all of its institutions, whether military, educational, social, financial and all the other institutions related to Hezbollah need to be dismantled. The locations that he took over in the base, Beirut, southern suburb, that have an entire information and communication system needs to be controlled by the Lebanese armed forces. If this is the only way for people to actually believe that the state is capable of fighting against it, Lynn

[Bianna Golodriga]

Harfouche, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much for offering your perspective. Appreciate the time. And we'll be right back after this short break.

[Walter Isaacson]

What's up? I GOT NEWS for YOUR ears, the podcast. I am your host Michael Ian Black. In this week's episode, we're covering everything, Iran, airports, Elvis. We're answering the question, could Elvis beat

[Nicholas Lemon]

up Trump or would Trump have the better of Elvis?

[Walter Isaacson]

And what is Trump's take on Bruce Lee? All of this and more. Have I GOT News for your ears. Check us out on Apple, Amazon Music,

[Bianna Golodriga]

wherever you get your podcast.

[Jim Sciuto]

Even better, you can watch the podcast on Spotify.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Now. With Passover approaching, Jews across the globe prepare to celebrate. And many cities are heightening security around synagogues amid the war with Iran. Anti Semitism has been surging since the October 7th attacks and our next guest is part of the two task force tackling it at Columbia University. In his new book, Professor Nicholas Lemon delves deep into his family's history as the son of German Jews. And he joins Walter Isaacson to speak about reconnecting with his faith and the wider Jewish community's relationship to Israel.

[Nicholas Lemon]

Thank you. Bianna and Nicholas Lemon, thank you for joining us.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thank you.

[Nicholas Lemon]

You've written this very rich memoir and multi generational history much different from your nonfiction books of the past. What set you on this journey?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, I started to get interested in my family history and that's a thing that happens to most people later in life. And it doesn't happen to all people later in life, but a certain subset of those over certain age kind of get obsessed. And I think the reason for that is for a lot of your life and for some people, for their whole life, they I think it's just me on stage enacting my life and that's what really matters. But sometimes you start thinking, well, I'm actually a link on a chain and there's people who came before me and there's people who came after me, and that's what's more important than what I did as an individual. So you want to learn more about who you came from. So the people who come after you can know more. And then the other part of it, Walter, is that there was a proverbial elephant in the room. I'm from New Orleans like you, so you know that I have a lot of cousins. And one of my cousins, many years ago, gathered up a lot of family papers and put them at Tulane University where you teach. And it's a really big archive. You work in archives. So, you know, the metric, it's over 100 linear feet of material. So I kind of knew it was there my whole life. And I thought, well, the one thing I'm not going to do is look in this material. Then I decided, you know, that's a little perverse. So I'm going to go look in the material. And the rest is history, as they say.

[Nicholas Lemon]

You know, we biographers like to think that clue number one to anybody is it's all about dad and boy. Is that the case in this book? Tell me about your father, Thomas Lemon, and his feelings about being Jewish and being a Southerner.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, he was. You knew him, so we should note that. And he was a remarkable character, a brilliant and eccentric guy, a lawyer in New Orleans on the Jewish front. He was, I guess what we'd call very, very assimilated. We belonged to a reformed temple, and he would take us there once a year, and that day was Thanksgiving. So he was into sort of leaving whatever restrictions and confines there were to being Jewish, particularly in New Orleans, and becoming a full member of the wider world, not being real ethnic. But on the other hand, he was very Southern and proud to be a Southerner. He lived in. I mean, it's really remarkable. He died at the age of 97 in the same hospital where he was born. That hospital is where his mother worked as a nurse, and there was a plaque outside his room memorializing her service. And it's the same hospital where I was born. So it's a very traditional, non mobile, if you will, un American world. And we felt like we were very deeply, deeply rooted in the South. Now, one of the surprises of my research was that I had no idea of this. I found that my family actually had moved to New York before the Civil War and left the South. So I had to sort of process that. If we were so Southern, why did we leave way back then? And then if we were so un Southern, why did we move back?

[Nicholas Lemon]

There's a story in your book that, you know, struck me, which involved an invitation you got to a Junior Mardi Gras ball and your father's reaction. Tell me that. And tell me how that informed the book.

[Walter Isaacson]

Okay. Well, first of all, given that not all of the viewers will be from New Orleans, you have to do a little explaining, like, you know, Pulitzer Prizes, Nobel Prizes, having your company do an ipo. The equivalent of that in New Orleans that we grew up in is these Mardi Gras social organizations. They're the pinnacle of everything, and they matter incredibly to people. So that's the context. And I got an invitation to a sort of junior Mardi Gras ball that I didn't respond to. I was like, 13. And my father came to my room very seriously and said, did you get this invitation? And he said, you're the first Jewish kid ever to be invited to this ball, and you need to accept because it's a step forward for our people and we're going to stop. You know, these. These organizations typically didn't let Jews in. And so. But we're gonna. We're gonna. Our. Our generation's gonna end that, and we're gonna be fully accepted. But, you know, you're allowed to invite a couple of guests. Don't invite any Jewish guests, you know, because you don't want to, like, push this too fast. So that was when I was kind of officially introduced to this. You know, one of the endless variations of this struggle about assimilating what you give up, what you gain, what you might gain, et cetera. And it sort of went on from there.

[Nicholas Lemon]

This book is basically about the assimilationist instinct that took you all the way back to Germany four or five generations ago. How does that assimilationist instinct for Jews, and for that matter, every other ethnic group probably feels an assimilationist instinct. How did that inform your book?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, you know, it's a trade off, that is. And you see this going back into. I mean, in a funny way, the story of assimilated Jews really begins with one person, which is a man named Moses Mendelssohn who rode into the gates of Berlin on a donkey in 1743. And he was really. I mean, Jews did not live outside the exclusively Jewish world, including my family. In those days, my family, we didn't have last names, which was typical of Jews. So there's this whole story in Germany, before we even get to America, of Jews trying to join the modern world called the Haskalah. And there's two sides to the story. One is. One is, would the rest of the world let us join? And the other is, what would we lose if we did join? So there's these struggles that just go on Forever. And as you say, they go on for all ethnic groups. Go watch the godfather for the 50th time. It's an American story.

[Nicholas Lemon]

What are the lessons about desiring to assimilate that seem sometimes lead to great tragedies, especially in Germany in the 1930s? What do those lessons about the desire to assimilate have for today when there's been a rise of antisemitism both in Europe and the United States?

[Walter Isaacson]

So there was this long running process in Germany of what's called Jewish emancipation, which was not completed until 1871. That was when Jews became completely, completely full citizens with full rights of the German nation. And then by 10 years later, there was a very active anti Semitic movement in Germany that sort of built and built and built until you got the Nazis. So in America today, you have half, roughly of the Jews in the world. There aren't that many living in Israel. And you have a tremendous amount of anti Israel sentiment both on the left and the right. And so most American Jews were raised to think that Israel is our homeland and even if we don't live there, it's part of our identity. But especially if you're younger, you really get challenged on that and kind of asked, are you a Zionist? And so people like my kids really struggle with that. It's almost every family I know has some kind of internal dissension over that. It's a tough time, not just because of the antisemitism, but again, although there's that, but the internal questioning of how to do citizenship in the US and other countries. Is assimilation a good idea? Are you accepted in the wider world? Those are all really tough questions that a lot of us are dealing with right now.

[Nicholas Lemon]

After the October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks in Israel, you were asked to serve as the co chair, you're sitting there at Columbia University now, of the antisemitism Task force there. What in your research and in your book helped inform you for that work on antisemitism?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, I guess first of all,

[Jim Sciuto]

working

[Walter Isaacson]

on the book very much led me to accept this assignment and informed the way that I understood the assignment, not just in terms of asking what previous members in the family would have done in this situation, but also understanding how rich and complicated and contentious the history of Zionism is in the Jewish community on all aspects. And that helped me sort of understand the conflict we were having on the campus much better. So, you know, all of that helped. And then as I was revising the book, it probably was in my mind that, you know, watching issues pertaining to being Jewish. Go from a pot that simmers to a pot that was on full boil and what it felt like to be in the middle of that. It made it feel as if going back to what we were talking about, about assimilation, that the process of being a Jewish American isn't a settled matter and isn't just simple. And all the old conflicts around this aren't part of the past, they're part of the present too. And we just, you know, at least I have to wrestle with them a lot. And you know, there's conversations, there's a conversation at Columbia, there's a pretty hot blooded conversation in the religious community I belong to, kind of internal to Jews about how we're supposed to feel about Israel, about Zionism, about peoplehood, about, about all those things. So there's just a lot on the table right now. The world seems so different from the way it seemed on October 6, 2023, when Israel was supposedly about to sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia and had signed these other agreements, the Egypt agreement had held and you sort of thought, okay, Israel's accepted. Now clearly it's not.

[Nicholas Lemon]

Has this whole process since October 7th made it harder to be very anti Israel without being accused of being anti Semitic and anti Jewish?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, it depends on who's doing the accusing. I think in the Jewish world that I've come to or returned to and that I live in, it's outside of that world. I think many of my friends who are not Jewish have a very, very, very harshly negative view of Israel. And it's become harsher in the last couple of years. They don't see that as anti Semitic at all, or most of them don't. But most of my Jewish friends that I belong to a synagogue with, with. It seems like in universities we use the term unconscious bias. Seems like an example of unconscious bias, or at least it makes them feel uncomfortable because in the Jewish world I live in now, which is pretty observant, everybody has family in Israel. Everybody's kids have spent significant time in Israel studying. They themselves are back and forth to Israel all the time. So to say to them, you don't truly understand your Jewish identity, which is completely unconnected to Israel. It's sort of like what world are you talking about? Exactly. That doesn't feel like you're describing my life and my soul and my consciousness.

[Nicholas Lemon]

And the other big lesson at the end of your book is the comfort that comes from re embracing returning to your tribe.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. So I want to say that because again, as we've covered I'm in a lot of troubled and agonized and painful conversations about this. And it's a good note to end on. I love being Jewish. It's a source of wonderful enrichment and joy and meaning in my life. It takes up hours of every week. And it's a very, very positive thing. So without all these fights that we're all having about Israel and Zionism, I just want to say that I'm having a seder. It's a real high point. I don't want to feel like the debates about our place in the world in our various locations vitiates the meaning of prayer and observance and community, because it doesn't.

[Nicholas Lemon]

Nicholas Lemon, thank you so much for joining us.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thanks, Walter. Great to see you. And thank you.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And finally, the wait is over. Celine Dion announces a remarkable return to the stage. This year, I'm getting the best gift of my life. I'm getting the chance to see you, to perform for you once again. She's been battling a rare neurological disorder since 2022 affecting her vocal cords, which has caused her to step away from concerts. But the power ballad icon, defiant as ever, will perform again. In a birthday message to Fans, she confirmed 10 concerts in Paris starting in September. The Eiffel Tower was even shining in celebration. It is official. Celine Dion's voice will go on. And that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye. From New York, I'm Eva Longoria, and

[Lyn Harfouch]

I'm setting out to really experience France, to savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history.

[Walter Isaacson]

Searching For France premieres April 12th on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.