From Nuclear Negotiations to AI Ethics

Summary

Podcast Summary

Amanpour: "From Nuclear Negotiations to AI Ethics"

Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)
Notable Guests: Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT), Cardinal Michael Czerny, Anna Rowlands (University of Durham), Kimberlé Crenshaw (civil rights scholar), Nick Payton Walsh (CNN correspondent)

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Episode Theme Overview

This episode weaves together urgent international and domestic crises: the fallout of the recent U.S./Israel–Iran war and ceasefire deal, the Vatican's engagement with AI ethics, Ukraine’s technological battlefield against Russia, civil rights rollbacks in America, and the roots of ongoing conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Through in-depth interviews and frontline reporting, Amanpour charts the complex moral, political, and human stakes of our contemporary moment.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Iran War Ceasefire and U.S. Diplomacy

(Segments: 03:24–11:08)

• Guest: Senator Chris Murphy

• Contents:

  • On the ceasefire: Murphy decries the war as "the most incompetent run war in the modern history of the United States," emphasizing that the draft Memorandum of Understanding essentially returns both sides to pre-war status without tangible gains for the U.S. ([03:24])
  • Assessment of Iran: Despite arguments that Iran’s military capacity and economy have been weakened, Murphy disputes this, saying Iran is now more powerful, with closer ties to China, preserved missile/drone stocks, and increased leverage at the negotiating table. ([05:40])
  • On Congressional Oversight: Murphy details efforts to force war votes in Congress via War Powers resolutions, arguing that with rising public discontent ("$6 gas"), more Republicans are opposing the President’s war policy. Regular votes are promised until congressional majorities can override potential vetoes. ([07:34])

  Notable Quotes:

  • "America is humiliated, American consumers are being hammered, people's lives are being ruined in the United States, thousands are dying needlessly in the Middle East and Iran is getting stronger." – Sen. Chris Murphy (03:25)
  • "Iran is more powerful today. They just are. They are more connected to China than before the war." – Sen. Chris Murphy (05:40)
  • "We're going to bring [resolutions] every single week until we have enough votes to pass them or hopefully to override his veto." – Sen. Chris Murphy (08:46)

2. The Assault on the Common Good (Sen. Murphy’s New Book: "Crisis of the Common Good")

(Segments: 08:56–11:08)

• Personal Anecdote: Murphy begins by recounting how even his son’s youth hockey league is now commoditized by private equity, barring parents from live-streaming games so they have to pay subscription fees. He laments that "even the most sacred things…are being purchased and then sold back to us." ([09:17])

• Wider Argument: Calls for a return to public-spirited values and structures not dictated purely by profit; a rebuilding of democratic and economic practices based on the common good and inclusivity, rather than privatization and scapegoating.

  Notable Quote:

  • "When everything becomes a commodity…when we construct an economy in which the only thing that matters is profit…something's wrong." – Sen. Chris Murphy (10:05)

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3. Religion and AI Ethics: The Vatican’s Intervention

(Segments: 13:14–20:20)

• Backdrop: The Pope’s encyclical "Magnificent Humanity" delivers a warning on AI’s existential risks, focusing on social justice, human dignity, and survival.

• Guests:

  • Cardinal Michael Czerny (Canada)
  • Anna Rowlands (Durham University)
  • Chris Oehler (Anthropic co-founder, remarks via Vatican event)

• Core Issues:

  • Dialogue with Tech Companies: Cardinal Czerny describes inviting tech leaders like Anthropic as a desire for "real dialogue"—AI companies need "what the Church and other wisdom traditions can offer." ([14:32])
  • Common Good vs. Private Interest: Anna Rowlands explains that the Pope wants a "common good conversation" that centers marginalized voices, not just "private interest" actors from tech. ([15:25])
  • Religious Competition in AI: Czerny denies any notion of religions competing to "own" AI, likening cooperation on AI ethics to global religious calls for peace. ([16:54])
  • AI Slopaganda and Political Abuse: Discussion turns to the misuse of AI imagery in politics—Trump’s use of AI-generated memes for personal glorification, and broader concerns about polarization. Rowlands points out, "There's something in the use of AI memes and algorithms that…profits from conflict and polarization." ([18:46])

  Notable Quotes:

  • “We need what the Church can offer us. We need what the other religions and wisdom traditions can offer us.” – Cardinal Czerny quoting Chris Oehler (14:32)
  • "What we need is a common good conversation that puts…those who in fact, at the moment are at the bottom of that chain of AI effects...at the center of that conversation, not the private interest conversation." – Anna Rowlands (15:25)
  • “Let's rejoice in the fact that there's serious dialogue, a serious dialogue about huge problems that are bothering a lot of people.” – Cardinal Czerny (16:54)
  • “There's something in the use of AI memes and algorithms…that actually profits, quite literally profits, from conflict and polarization. That's how the money flows into the system and it drives the politics of polarization.” – Anna Rowlands (19:50)

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4. Ukraine’s Evolving Drone War Against Russia

(Segments: 20:47–24:42)

• Field Report: Nick Payton Walsh embeds with a Ukrainian drone unit launching a 200-drone attack into Russia, highlighting:

  • Ukraine’s rapid technological adaptation—AI-powered targeting, decentralized operations, and advanced drone capabilities (some jet-boosted, traveling up to 1200 miles). ([21:31])
  • These innovations enable Ukraine to strike deep into Russian territory and evade Russian defenses, to the embarrassment of the Kremlin.
  • Ukraine's army of drones is presented as a blueprint for small nations facing larger, conventional military foes, with adaptability and decentralized command as key strengths.

  Notable Quotes:

  • “President Trump once said Ukraine had no cards, but now they've built themselves a new deck.” – Nick Payton Walsh (21:31)
  • “Dozens of Ukrainian drones roaming inside Russia, code coordinates targets, AI Powered, pulsing on the screen faster than your eyes can read.” – Nick Payton Walsh (23:10)
  • "Each leap advantage lasts just months before the other side catches up. Ukraine is ahead for now, but only because it's learned it'll likely be on its own when it's not." – Nick Payton Walsh (24:36)

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5. Civil Rights Rollback in America: Kimberlé Crenshaw Interview

(Segments: 25:50–33:18)

• Backdrop: The Trump administration's ongoing dismantling of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts, including book bans and attacks on military integration.

• Guest: Kimberlé Crenshaw (coined "intersectionality"; academic and activist)

• Main Discussion:

  • Crenshaw contextualizes the rollback as a deliberate attempt to return to a pre-integration America. She notes the erasure of civil rights history—libraries purging works by Black authors while retaining white supremacist texts—reflecting an explicit ideological agenda. ([27:25])
  • Warns these movements are "playing for keeps," with the potential for "combined forces to actually unravel, dismantle, push back against progress." Draws parallels with Reconstruction’s reversal. ([29:58])
  • Advocates for "back talk"—courageous, collective truth-telling and resistance to encroaching tyranny, echoing Toni Morrison's warnings about historical erasure. ([32:06])

  Notable Quotes:

  • “When you say you want to make America great again...the goal that they are pursuing is to recreate precisely that image, precisely that reality." – Kimberlé Crenshaw (27:25)
  • "The only way we can do it is for us to tell our truths. The only way we can do it is to refuse to bend the knee." – Kimberlé Crenshaw (32:06)
  • "We are fighting for the soul of a multiracial democracy. And if they are successful, it will be a long time before we'll see the opportunity to regain everything that we've lost." – Kimberlé Crenshaw (31:07)

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6. Congo: Ebola Outbreak and Decades of Conflict

(Segments: 33:24–37:57)

• Historical Context: Amanpour presents archival reporting from the First Congo War (1996), linking today’s Ebola nightmare to decades of conflict and state failure.

• Key Points:

  • The ongoing outbreak is exacerbated by conflict, weak institutions, and delayed international response.
  • Old interviews show the cycle of corruption, military collapse, and outside intervention that has haunted the country since Mobutu’s fall.
  • Rwanda’s enduring, controversial influence also explored—Vice President Kagame (future president) justifies rebel armed struggle while denying support.

  Notable Quotes:

  • “Decades of armed conflict combined with recent aid cuts have left that country deeply vulnerable, with health officials warning the virus could have been detected many weeks ago.” – Christiane Amanpour (33:36)

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7. French Open: Sport and War

(Segments: 37:57–40:22)

• Human Toll: Ukrainian tennis player Marta Kostiuk wins her opening match while her family’s home is hit by Russian missiles.
• Farewell: French star Gael Monfils says goodbye in his last Roland Garros, hoping his career inspires other Black players and that his wife, Elina Svitolina, will lift the women’s trophy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• Sen. Chris Murphy:
  • "America is humiliated...Iran is getting stronger." (03:24)
  • "Iran is more powerful today...they are more connected to China than they were before the war." (05:40)
• Cardinal Czerny (on religious input in AI):
  • "We need what the Church can offer us. We need what the other religions and wisdom traditions can offer us." (14:32)
• Anna Rowlands:
  • "What we need is a common good conversation...not the private interest conversation." (15:25)
  • "There's something in the use of AI memes and algorithms…that profits from conflict and polarization." (19:50)
• Kimberlé Crenshaw:
  • “When you say you want to make America great again...the goal that they are pursuing is to recreate precisely that image, precisely that reality." (27:25)
  • "We are fighting for the soul of a multiracial democracy." (31:07)
  • "Tell our truths. Refuse to bend the knee...it's time to talk back." (32:06)
• Nick Payton Walsh:
  • “President Trump once said Ukraine had no cards, but now they've built themselves a new deck.” (21:31)
  • “Dozens of Ukrainian drones...AI Powered, pulsing on the screen faster than your eyes can read.” (23:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• U.S.–Iran Negotiations: 03:24–11:08
• AI Ethics & Vatican: 13:14–20:20
• Ukraine’s Drone War: 20:47–24:42
• Civil Rights Rollbacks: 25:50–33:18
• Congo: Ebola & Conflict: 33:24–37:57
• French Open Stories: 37:57–40:22

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Summary & Takeaways

• International Diplomacy: Peace deals that return to the status quo often come at great cost if power balances shift during war, as seen in Iran.
• AI Ethics: Genuine dialogue across sectors and traditions is needed to ensure AI serves the "common good" rather than private interests or political polarization.
• Civil Rights: Current efforts to roll back DEI and voting rights are part of a long historical pattern; resisting through advocacy, truth-telling, and legal means is critical.
• Innovation Under Pressure: Ukraine’s improvisation in warfare is shifting Western military paradigms, proving that agility and tech innovation can check superior force—even with scarce resources.
• Congo's Crisis: Protracted conflict and external interference have undermined Congo’s ability to handle crises like Ebola, with current events echoing unresolved problems from past decades.
• Personal Triumph Amid Strife: Even in sports, personal and national struggles are intertwined, from Ukrainian athletes on the court to French legends saying farewell.

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This episode offers a sweeping, urgent, and deeply human perspective on some of the most critical ethical, political, and social dilemmas of our age, driven by Christiane Amanpour’s incisive questions and the passionate engagement of her guests.

Transcript

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

This war has been perhaps the most incompetent run war in the modern history of the United States. And that's saying a lot.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Israel and America's war on Iran. I'm joined by Democratic Senator Chris Murphy on how to get his country out of it for good. Then can religion teach artificial intelligence ethics? The Pope sure hopes so.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

His first major encyclical warns about the existential peril to us humans. I talk to Leo's AI point people

[CNN Correspondent]

and

[Christiane Amanpour]

striking deep into the heart of Russia, Nick Payton Walsh follows a top secret Ukrainian drone squad that's become Putin's number one target. Also ahead, as civil rights and voting rights continue to be eroded, activist Kimberly Crenshaw on the importance of talking back.

[Michael Ian Black]

There are efforts to break our democracy, to unravel basic protections, to render certain voters unable to elect people of our choice, and to take away the ability to say anything about it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Plus, as the Democratic Republic of Congo faces an outbreak of Ebola and conflict, from my archives the decades of instability and strife that made it vulnerable to this nightmare scenario. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. A lot of diplomatic whiplash this week. U.S. and Iranian negotiators coalescing around a draft Memorandum of Understanding that would extend the ceasefire for 60 days and launch direct talks over Iran's nuclear program. I spoke to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy just as news of this deal emerged. And we also discussed his new book, Crisis of the Common Good. Senator, welcome Back to the program. And can I start by talking about the latest international news? So all of this back and forth as I outlined over some kind of an agreement to get out of the war on Iran. I know that you want a ceasefire, but you're not thrilled with the outlines of what seems to be on the table. Where do you stand right now?

[Senator Chris Murphy]

I want the war to end on practically any terms because every single day this war goes on. America is humiliated, American consumers are being hammered, people's lives are being ruined in the United States, thousands are dying needlessly in the Middle east and Iran is getting stronger. This war has been perhaps the most incompetent run war in the modern history of the United States. And that's saying a lot. What is this deal apparently about? Essentially just going back to where we were before the war began. So we end our blockade, they end their blockade, and then we have the opportunity to sit and talk about sanctions relief for nuclear commitments. Well, that's exactly where we were before the war began. The problem is Iran is now stronger. They have more leverage at the nuclear negotiating table today than they did because they have taken America's best shot and they have survived. The doddering 80 year old Ayatollah is gone and a more menacing regime likely is in its place. And now they know that they have this leverage that they have shown to the world the ability to close and control the Strait of Hormuz that they can hold over us like the sword of Damocles in these negotiations. So he has made negotiations much harder. He has damaged the global economy and the American economy. And it's just sad that we had to go through all of this just to talk about a diplomatic agreement that brings us back to exactly where we were but lowers our leverage at the negotiating table.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Senator, there are others who will say, well, actually, hang on. In the last couple of months, the US and Israel have severely degraded Iran's military capability, that its economy is on its knees with this blockade. And you know, it is weakened, although as you rightly say, because that's all the information coming out of Iran, it has strengthened the hand of the hardliners, particularly the military, the, the irgc. Do you think, despite your misgivings, that actually it's militarily weakened and maybe more, I don't know, amenable to further nuclear concessions than even Obama got?

[Senator Chris Murphy]

No, absolutely not. We are going to get a worse deal because we have given them all we've got. They, I think, always knew we weren't going to launch a ground invasion. But there was definitely the chance that major air operations could do significant damage. But all the assessments that have been made public show that Iran still has 70% of their missiles, has 70% of their drones. Meanwhile, it's taken an enormous toll on America's security. We have significantly depleted our missile stocks, our interceptors we have exposed ourselves to militarily because of all of the weaponry we have had to use here. Iran is more powerful today. They just are. They are more connected to China than they were before the war. They are more menacing in the region. They have more leverage than they did at the beginning of this conflict. At the negotiating table, we have less. And that is why every president has been told, don't go to war with Iran, you are going to end up weaker at the end of it. And every president prior to Donald Trump, Republicans and Democrats paid attention and followed that counsel.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what about the congressional ability to vote on war, the War Powers act, et cetera, the War Powers Resolution? Now you have been trying to get that through for a while, and just recently, in fact, the Senate did approve it. A couple of Republicans came over, including Senator Bill Cassidy, who then was primaried. He lost hishe lost his position and he, you know, flipped to a yes vote. Then you were going to try to take it to the House as the procedure demands, but the House speaker didn't call a vote. Where do you think that now stands? And do you think more Republicans are becoming more willing to try to stop this war?

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Yes. So since the war began, when it became clear that the Republicans who control Congress weren't going to do their constitutional duty, which is to bring a war vote before Congress. A war is not supposed to happen like this without prior congressional consent. When we found out Republicans weren't going to do that, a few of us, Senator Booker, Senator Kaine and myself, got together and said, okay, we're going to bring up resolutions that under the rules, require a vote in the Senate every single week. And we've done that. We lost those resolutions to end the war for the first several weeks, but we just got 50 votes for the first time on a procedural motion last week. And we think it's going to pass the Senate shortly. It probably has the votes to pass the House now. The President can veto it. So we would ultimately need veto proof, majorities. But what we're showing is that as time goes on, more and more Republicans are turning against the President. Why? Because this war is wildly unpopular. Except for his very hard base that lives in this pro Trump media ecosystem, everybody in this nation thinks this is a disaster because they're paying $6 for gas and the only reason they're paying $6 for gas is because of this war. So pressure is going to mount on Republicans to join us on these resolutions and we will continue to bring them every single week until we have enough votes to pass them or hopefully to override his veto.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So let's get to your book because all of this is somewhat related. You talk about, you know, the common good and the assault on the common good. You begin your book, this book with an anecdote that is not set in Washington in the corridors of power. It's on, you know, the hockey, the rink when you're watching your son playing hockey. Tell us about the anecdote.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Yeah, my, my book opens with a personal story that will sound familiar to people. My son's a hockey player. He's not going to play in the NHL, but he's playing a 60 game season, which is just a lot of hockey games because his league is owned by a private equity backed investment company. And I've come to find out that there are some pretty bizarre rules in this league. For instance, parents can't live stream the games so that a grandparent can watch at home. Why? Because this private equity backed company has installed a camera system, a streaming system that they charge you for. And what's happening is that even the most sacred things in our life, like our kids youth sports is being purchased and then sold back to us. And that is part of what is driving, I think, this great anxiety in this country is that everything is for sale, including our kids youth sports. We want some things in our world to just be run for the common good. Our elementary schools, parts of our health care system, our kids youth sports teams. And when everything becomes a commodity, when we construct an economy in which the only thing that matters is profit, that a company is judged to be successful even if it pillages the community in which it lives in, it treats its workers miserably, but it makes a profit. It just feels like something's wrong. And so this book argues that we have got to rebuild a sense of the common good. We've got to build an economy that serves everybody, not just the people at the top. We've got to rebuild our democracy so that everybody's voices matter and that if you do that once again, people will be less willing to kind of normalize the kind of scapegoating that you see from Donald Trump.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Senator Murphy, thank you very much indeed.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Coming up later on the show, as the Trump Administration's war on DEI continues apace. I'm joined by Kimberle Crenshaw on her personal journey to become a leading civil rights activist. But first up, the Pope joins the fray as the race to artificial intelligence heats up. Can religion teach ethics to machines? I asked the pontiff's AI point people.

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[Cardinal Michael Czerny]

Members of Congress cannot corruptly profit from using insider information.

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He never said presidents can't find themselves

[Senator Chris Murphy]

based on insider information. He didn't say that. Have I got news for your ears?

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[Senator Chris Murphy]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back to the program. A new Tower of Babel, a stark warning about artificial intelligence from Pope Leo xiv. In his first major encyclical entitled Magnificent Humanity, the Pontiff doubled down on social justice, individual dignity, and the very survival of our human race. And he's trying to enlist the opposition the AI companies. The co founder of Anthropic, Chris Oehler, sat alongside Leo as he presented his public letter and spoke candidly about the perils companies like his could unleash.

[Michael Ian Black]

Every frontier AI lab, including Anthropic, operates inside a set of incentives and constraints that can sometimes conflict with doing the right thing.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Cardinal Michael Czerny of Canada and Anna Rowlands, a British theologian at the University of Durham, were at the Pope's presentation. And afterwards they joined me from the Vatican and I asked them about disarming this new challenge and working with companies like Anthropic. Cardinal Michael Czerny of Canada and Anna Rowlands, a British theologian, welcome to the program. So what I want to ask you, Cardinal, is what was the thinking behind bringing Anthropic in?

[Cardinal Michael Czerny]

The thinking behind it is that we want to have real dialogue. And what was so moving, really, was that Chris Olaw expressed this desire in a sincere and, I would say, humble way. He said, we need what the Church can offer us. We need what the other religions and wisdom traditions can offer us. And the Holy Father on his part welcomed the invitation and in the name of the Church accepted it. Said, we are ready and willing to talk.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Some have complained that the Pope shouldn't be going into business, so to speak, with the leaders of these tech giants. But do you, are you troubled by it? You don't think it gives them too much weight?

[Anna Rowlands]

I think the point that Chris Sola was trying to make was that he feels that the sector inevitably is captured by exactly those motives that you've described. He himself, I don't know whether he speaks formally through philanthropic or not, is saying that he needs a space which is not captured. And he sees the Pope as a figure of moral leadership and someone who has convening power, who can help, I think, foster relationships that enable that conversation to be truly public. Now, that crucially means it's not just the tech sector. If the only people around that table in the dialogue are the tech sector, that's when we have the kind of problems that you're alluding to, I think, in your question. What we need is a common good conversation that puts it's those who in fact, at the moment are at the bottom of that chain of AI effects and technology, digitalization effects. We need those people round the same table. It's their voices that the Pope says he absolutely wants at the center of that common good conversation, not the private interest conversation.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Another religious question some have raised, Cardinal, is how do you, and I'm sort of thinking sort of in the future, which religion gets to own AI, if you know what I mean, when it becomes, you know, the sort of generative, when it becomes much more human or even outpaces human, and you've put all these religions into this, this thing that who knows who can control it? Is there going to be a religious competition or religions using it for their own own use? Where do you see that going?

[Cardinal Michael Czerny]

No, I don't see it going that way at all. It would be a bit like asking, asking that if all Religions are working and calling for peace that somehow one of them is going to dominate the peace movement. I mean, I think that's. That's completely out of the question. And in fact, one of the interesting things is that the Catholic Church is not the only dialogue partner. There are other Christian denominations and there are other religions and there are other wisdom traditions. So, no, I don't think we need to make up new problems. Let's rejoice in the fact that there's serious dialogue. A serious dialogue about huge problems that are bothering a lot of people and where we're not getting leadership from others in responsibility.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, I laughed when you said let's not make new problems. There certainly are plenty of problems right now, including the problem of what's known as AI Slop. AI slopaganda. Anna, I'm going to ask you, I think I may know what the cardinal might say, but certain political leaders, let's say Donald Trump, for instance, has taken this imagery, AI generated images portraying himself as the Pope with Jesus Christ. As Jesus Christ, you know, his, his ministry of war, as they call it, which is actually, you know, the defense ministry is portraying war, the current ones, in very religious terms and using all sorts of AI generated memes and things to back themselves up. Now, I know the Pope has spoken against that and warned about that. Tell me about where you think this might lead. Would it get worse? What could happen?

[Anna Rowlands]

I think this is. This kind of problem is exactly what the document is trying to address. Everything from what you might call the gamification of war, where the ability to use AI to make war feel more impersonal, to reduce the reflective interval so that there's a possibility for dialogue and pulling back from the brink of conflict. So he addresses that. But I think in terms of the actual use of imagery and the way that you're describing, which is kind of the construction of a Persona for a political leader, exactly those kind of decisions and the kind of public square that that creates is again, a kind of conversation that Pope Leo is trying to ask us to have. Who are we becoming? What does it mean to be human? How do we represent the human? And I think in a sense, this, this idea that the use of very quick fired AI images, I noticed that Dr. Trump often puts these out seemingly in the middle of the night, in the early hours of the morning. That in a sense, it makes it too easy for us. There's a kind of immediacy in the tools that prevents that reflective interval, perhaps, and that changes and shifts the way that we behave. And Pope Leo talks in this document about the way that an algorithmic order is very, very sort of driven by conflict and polarization. There's something in the use of AI memes and algorithms, rhythms that actually profits, quite literally profits from conflict and polarization. That's how the money flows into the system and it drives the politics of polarization. So if we can break those links between the use of those kind of images, fast fire and the kind of polarizing politics is healthier for all of us.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And coming up inside Ukraine's rapidly evolving drone war, a rare look at the units now straight striking deep inside Russia. That's after the break.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

They are a key target for the

[Nick Payton Walsh]

Russian Shahid drones flying overhead, constantly interrupting their work, which is going to go on all night.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back. Russia's war in Ukraine is entering a dangerous new phase and Kyiv is feeling the full force of it after Russia launched its powerful hypersonic missiles during a sweeping aerial assault on the capital this week. And it comes as recent incursions into Baltic airspace fuel fears on this side of the Atlantic anyway, that Moscow's aggression could spread beyond Ukraine. Countries across Europe's eastern flank are now looking to Kyiv for lessons in how to survive this new kind of conflict because Ukraine has been Adapting fast throughout. CNN's Nick Payton Walsh got rare access to one long range drone unit as it prepared for an attack deep into Russia.

[Nick Payton Walsh]

President Trump once said Ukraine had no cards, but now they've built themselves a new deck. We're now with perhaps Russia's most keenly sought target in the war, a deep strike Ukrainian drone unit launching this night a wave of 200 attack drones into Russia. The issue here is the scale. Potentially 20 drones being launched just from here and three or four other locations around here also involved in tonight's attack. The sheer number overwhelming, it seems, much of Russia's air defenses and causing persistent embarrassment to the Kremlin. Working fast in silence, knowing an error with the fuel or explosives or launch could kill them all.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

They are a key target for the

[Nick Payton Walsh]

Russian Shahid drones flying overhead, constantly interrupting their work, which is going to go on all night. Close to here, Russian strikes have just hit Ukrainian civilians. And in Russian Stavropol, these Ukrainian drones hit the mayor, telling Russians there to stay indoors. In another field, another technological leap is at work. Jet boosters used to get drones to their one hundred and twenty mile an hour speed in just seconds at their base. One screen is a glimpse of a world order turned on its head. Dozens of Ukrainian drones roaming inside Russia code coordinates targets, AI Powered, pulsing on the screen faster than your eyes can read. Russia, often seen as the third largest military power preyed upon by a series of laptops.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's our biggest advantage and why it's so hard for Russia to destroy this program. Because we split up, we don't have any common centers and we use dozens of places. Also, this software gives us a chance to work with thousands of UAVs.

[Nick Payton Walsh]

The Luty drone can take a huge payload over 1200 miles. There are decoys and a jet powered drone they say seems to appear like a rocket on Russian radar.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Those are decoys. We send hundreds of them. Some are empty, some with a payload. The payload is small, but it's enough to destroy air defense systems.

[Nick Payton Walsh]

It is dizzying, the speed of evolution, adaptation, ingenuity. Ukraine 2 years ago begging for old American missiles to hit just inside Russia's borders. But now it builds itself and launches so many drones, often as deep as Russian Siberia. Even Kremlin loyalists are questioning Putin's endgame. Now the west wants to learn from what Ukraine had to do to survive when it didn't get the help it needed. Each leap advantage lasts just months before the other side catches up. Ukraine is ahead for now, but only because it's learned it'll likely be on its own when it's not. NICK Peyton Walsh, CNN, eastern Ukraine.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Ukraine keeping one eye always on U.S. support. And coming up, the importance of talking back Civil rights activist and academic Kimberle Crenshaw on a lifetime of resistance. Still fighting for equality in America, Comedian Craig Ferguson is going coast to coast to unpack what it really means to be an American today.

[Nick Payton Walsh]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Craig Ferguson, American on Purpose new series premieres May 30 at 9 on CNN. And next day on the CNN app. Oh, just my type, babe.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Oh, you mean the house.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome to the highest competition of the summer.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Take, take, take, take, take me to the beach.

[Michael Ian Black]

Three amateur renovation teams paired with a

[Christiane Amanpour]

top HGTV mentor will transform three beach

[Michael Ian Black]

houses into a life changing opportunity to win $50,000 cash. Whoa, whoa, whoa, did you say $50,000?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Can we join season premiere Battle on

[Senator Chris Murphy]

the Beach June 1st at 9 on HGTV.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back to the program. The civil rights rollback is a real and present danger as the Trump administration systematically ends diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. Powered also by a Supreme Court that recently def Voting Rights Act. And in the midst of graduation season, the defense secretary has ratcheted up his anti diversity attacks on the most successfully integrated institution in America, which is the military accusing the US army, for instance, of an obsession with gender and race that he says has seen its standards slip. So let's ask renowned civil rights scholar and academic Kimberle Crenshaw where she thinks this will end up. She coined the term intersectionality, and she helped spearhead critical race theory, which of course has triggered major Republican blowback. Her new memoir, Back Talker, traces her own personal journey growing up in Ohio during the Jim Crow era. Kimberle Crenshaw, welcome to our program.

[Michael Ian Black]

So delighted to be here again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Kimberly, can I just start by asking you to respond to what I alluded to, and that is, you know, at a graduation speaker speech at West Point, there goes the secretary of Defense again, you know, cracking down on woke. And as you know, he's cracked down on black recruits and officers, on female recruits and officers, on and on. And I wonder when you see that happening in the military, which I was told was one of the most successfully integrated institutions in all of the United States, what that tells you.

[Michael Ian Black]

Yeah, well, it's shocking, but it shouldn't be surprise. This administration has made a promise and they're acting on it. When you say you want to make America great again, and that moment that you're trying to take us back to was a moment before most of us had rights, before there were laws against discrimination, really, before the military was even fully integrated, then that tells you that the goal that they are pursuing is to recreate precisely that image, precisely that reality. So, yes, among the first things that this administration did, this second administration, was take out the highest ranking African American military personnel and women as well. It has long been seen as, you know, the most important moment in integration, when the armed forces became integrated. So, yeah, yeah, they're going to start there. But this is what's more, in their campaign to erase history, in their campaign to censor ideas, there was a time, not recent, not long ago, that they went through the library at one of the military academies purging books. They took out books like Maya Angelou, I Know why the Caged Bird Sings, but look at what they left on the shelves. They left Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf on the shelves and other books like that. So there is a particular ideology. It was spoken by one of the administration's officials who said, if you want to get things done right, you need to put white men in charge. That is the ideology. And that is what you heard from Hegseth and others who are basically putting words to the actions that they've already done.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Clearly, it is shocking what we're seeing being unraveled and what you just said about choosing even the kind of ideology to allow military to read, is it going to be successful? Do you think? Do you think these people, these leaders who want to, as you say, roll back history, give it back to when white men were supreme in the United States, is there any way they can actually make that work? Because they're rolling back voters, rights, you've got the gerrymandering, rolling back all sorts of elements of the Civil Rights Act. There's a lot going on in this regard.

[Michael Ian Black]

Well, you know, it really. The jury is still out on whether they're going to be successful, but one has to say on their side, there's historical precedent for the ability of combined forces to actually unravel, dismantle, push back against progress that's been made to make us a true inclusive democracy. This faction is a faction that has a long history in American society. Reconstruction was an eight year program to actually create a real democracy. The redeemers came through and unraveled every last bit of it. And African Americans lived in racial tyranny for another seven decades. The important thing to recognize is that this campaign that they are prosecuting isn't just about the midterms. It's not just about the next presidential election. They're playing for keeps. This is about what will happen throughout this century and the next century. So we have to understand this isn't something that we can simply try to pivot away from, try to come up with different words, try to appease. We are fighting for the soul of a multiracial democracy. And if they are successful, it will be a long time before we'll see the opportunity to regain everything that we've lost.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now, look, you are not just an activist. You are primarily an academic and a law professor. And you have talked about what you want the legal framework to understand. Back in 2022, people, you invoked Toni Morrison's warning about restricting racial histories and silencing experience. You said changing the rules about what racial histories can be taught and what experiences can be acknowledged is not a healthy feature of a robust democracy. It's a symptom of a dying one. That's Toni Morrison, who you invoked. And your book is called Back Talker. So how does that happen? How do you propose back talking actually achieves, you know, that extending that moral

[Michael Ian Black]

arc towards justice when our democracy was broken before by people who would rather break the nation rather than share it equitably with people who didn't look like them, when that happened, we all suffered. Of course, some people suffered a whole lot more. But we didn't live in a functioning democracy. We're at a point where the same thing is happening again. There are efforts to break our democracy, to unravel basic protections, to render certain voters unable to elect people of our choice, and to take away the ability to say anything about it. These are all the fundamental aspects of a nation that is moving into tyranny. We need to be able to connect those dots and to bring communities together, to be able to see what is our common interest in sustaining a democracy that's responsive. The only way we can do it is for us to tell our truths. The only way we can do it is to refuse to bend the knee. And unfortunately, too many institutions who ought to know better are bending the knee. So that's why it's time to talk back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Kimberle Crenshaw, thank you so much indeed.

[Michael Ian Black]

Always a pleasure to be here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And Back Talker by Crenshaw is out now. Coming up, as the Democratic Republic of Congo is struck by another deadly Ebola outbreak, we look back at the roots of a crisis which has been decades in the making. My report from the front lines in 1996. That's after the break. Welcome back. The Democratic Republic of Congo is facing a catastrophic collision of disease and war. That was the warning from the World Health Organization this week as the nation battles the latest deadly outbreak of Ebola. Decades of armed conflict combined with recent aid cuts have left that country deeply vulnerable, with health officials warning the virus could have been detected many weeks ago. Now ongoing conflict is preventing responders from containing it. Thirty years ago, I reported from the front lines of what was then Zaire as it entered a new era of instability. The First Congo War had just begun, and rebel forces believed that ousting the longtime dictator Mobutu would bring democracy and stability to the country. Few could have imagined the years of conflict, corruption and collapse that would follow sowing the seeds of today's crisis. Take a look.

[CNN Correspondent]

While the world focuses on delivering humanitarian aid to Zaire, the real solution, say regional governments, must be political. In less than a month, Zaire and rebels have taken control of the eastern part of the country. They say they want to liberate the whole of Zaire from what they call President Mobutu's corrupt dictatorship. In Goma. Rebel commanders take us to see former Zaire and army soldiers. They say some were captured during last week's fight for the town. Others, they claim, surrendered themselves and their weapons. The rebels don't call these soldiers prisoners of war, rather new Recruits. The rebels have said all along they plan to carry on their revolution.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What this here amounts to is a re education camp.

[CNN Correspondent]

The aim is to get the Zaire and people and the former soldiers of the Zaire army to join their cause. Of course they'll be re educated here, says rebel commander Abbas. They've taken part in genocide and other mistakes that have been committed in our country. But now they must join our revolution. This country belongs to all of us. In truth, these men don't have much choice. But all those we asked said they were tired of their miserable lives. In the Zaire and army we are the military, says this man. But we had to wait for months and months to get paid. We had no medical care and we had to scrounge like animals to feed our families. This was the Zaire army's living quarters in Goma. Even officers were housed in this slum, just a few kilometers away from President Mobutu's opulent Lakeside villa. For 30 years, he selfishly plundered the country, say the soldiers, and let the army starve. That's why they say they just turned and ran rather than fight the rebels. Now the rebels are retraining them, letting them sleep at home and giving them food for their families. Neighboring Rwanda denies supporting these rebels, but Vice President Paul Kagame says they may

[Christiane Amanpour]

have just cause corruption that is in that society, in government institutions and so

[Senator Chris Murphy]

on and so forth.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think there is a need for that to change.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

And if one way to change that

[Christiane Amanpour]

situation is through an armed struggle like

[Senator Chris Murphy]

they have started, I think that can be justified.

[CNN Correspondent]

It's pretty strong talk from a vice

[Christiane Amanpour]

president of a neighboring country.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Well, there's a problem of being torn between being diplomatic and saying the reality as it is.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's the problem I'm facing because Zaire

[CNN Correspondent]

has been protecting the former Rwandan army, using refugee camps near Goma as bases for military incursions back home. The incursions have stopped since the rebels captured eastern Zaire, so they form a useful base buffer zone. And Rwanda believes the rebels can go all the way to the Zaire and capital if they can mobilize the people and prove they represent real change. Cristian Amanpour, cnn, Goma, Zaire.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A year after that report, Mobuto was toppled and exiled from Zaire. And four years later, Paul Kagame would become president of Rwanda. It's a position he still holds after extending term limits and cracking down on the opposition. The United nations and other international groups have long accused Kagame's government of supporting rebel groups in Congo and fueling the conflict, profiting from the region's lucrative mineral trade. Rwanda denies these allegations. When we come back, emotion on and off the court at Roland Garros, the French Open. From the pain of competing in the shadow of war to a French star's final farewell. That's after the break. And finally, heartbreak, resilience and history making moments. As the Roland Garros French Tennis Open kicked off in Paris this week, 23 year old Ukrainian player Marta Kostiuk dedicated her first win to her country, but she described the match as one of the hardest of her career. Just hours before she stepped on court, a Russian missile had destroyed a building meters away from her family's home in Ukraine. It was a sentiment echoed by fellow Ukrainian and world number three Elina Svitolina, who told reporters that it was, quote, extremely tough to play while Kyiv is under fire. And there were emotional scenes on court too as the crowds bid adieu to the French favorite Gael Monfis, who is also svitolina's husband. The 38 year old fought late into the night in a five set thriller before falling to Hugo Gaston in the first round of his final role on Garros event. It's the end of a two decade journey at the Grand Slam where Monfils enjoyed some of his greatest triumphs. His hope to leave a legacy that inspires the next generation of black tennis players and most likely that his wife Elina Svitolina takes home the woman's crown. That's all we have time for this week. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching.

[Michael Ian Black]

From the descendants of history makers involved in the Louisiana Purchase to the Lewis and Clark expedition, discover the untold stories of American expans in the CNN original series this Land, premiering June 7th on CNN.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Daniel Dae Kim. I'm going to South Korea to figure out how this small nation conquered the world with its culture. Join me and meet the artists and

[Michael Ian Black]

creators behind the phenomenon, K. Everything now streaming on the CNN app.