Gaza Priest on Pope Francis

Summary

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Amanpour – "Gaza Priest on Pope Francis"

CNN Podcasts | April 25, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour

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Episode Overview

This episode is anchored by an in-depth conversation with Father Carlos Ferrero, a Catholic priest in Gaza, reflecting on the death and legacy of Pope Francis—focusing particularly on the Pope’s nightly calls to Gaza’s dwindling Christian community during the war. The episode also explores life under siege in Gaza, the humanitarian impacts of U.S. foreign aid cuts in Afghanistan (with guest Shireen Ibrahim from the IRC), and offers segments on historical and cultural topics, including Ryan Calais Cameron's new play "Retrograde" (about Sidney Poitier’s brush with McCarthyism) and a discussion with director Edward Berger about the Vatican thriller "Conclave."

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Key Segments & Insights

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I. The Death of Pope Francis and Gaza’s Christian Community

[01:15–03:56] – Introducing the Topic

• Christiane Amanpour sets the stage with reflections on Pope Francis’s legacy as a bridge between conservative and liberal forces in the Catholic Church, and as a global moral authority.
• Notably, Pope Francis was a vocal critic of the Gaza war, calling for peace, hostages’ release, and an end to suffering.

“A pontiff who put his flock first. Engaging with Catholics all over the world, even a tiny population living in the midst of war torn Gaza… For the last 18 months of his life, he called Gaza’s only Catholic church every night.” (Amanpour, [02:40])

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[03:56–11:14] – Interview with Father Carlos Ferrero, Priest in Gaza

On Grief, Faith, and the Church’s Role

• Father Ferrero expresses sorrow for Pope Francis’s death and highlights that prayers in Gaza are now twofold: for the late Pope and for peace amid ongoing violence.
• Notes the dire scarcity: "It's now more than 50 days of a total siege. No bread, no water, no medicine..." (Amanpour, [04:33])
• Ferrero: "Not having bread is really shocking. It's a real need for the people." ([05:12])

On Pope Francis’ Nightly Phone Calls

• For 18 months, Pope Francis called every night at 8 pm. Parishioners referred to this time as “the hour of the Pope.”
• The Pope would always ask: “How are you? … How are the people? Are they happy? What do they need?” ([05:57])
• “It was really a pastoral thing. For all of us and for the people, it was a big encouragement to know that the Pope himself is calling us every day.” ([06:36])

On Community and Faith Under Siege

• Gazans called the church “the house of Jesus” and sought refuge there amidst bombardment, believing “God is protecting us… God has given us the angels…” ([08:38])
• Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa’s praise: “I saw hope and optimism in their eyes. They told me, ‘We will stay here as long as the Church stands with us, we are not afraid.’” (Amanpour, quoting Cardinal, [08:00])

On Violence and Survival

• The church compound itself was bombed in January 2024, including a home for disabled children. Two civilians were shot dead by Israeli snipers inside the compound.

"[An] old lady… was shot. When the daughter saw that, she tried to help... and then the second person was shot again." (Ferrero, [09:37])

Closing the Segment

• Amanpour recognizes the extraordinary resilience and faith of Gaza’s Christians and thanks Father Ferrero for sharing his perspective.
• Ferrero: "God bless you. Thank you for inviting us." ([11:09])

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II. Afghanistan: Humanitarian Crisis Amid U.S. Aid Cuts

[13:43–26:06] – Interview with Shireen Ibrahim, IRC Afghanistan Director

On the Severity of the Situation

• 23 million Afghans need humanitarian aid; 16 million face food insecurity; 14 million lack health access. (Ibrahim, [13:56])
• US aid was 54% of all humanitarian funding, but “this year, that is no longer the case.” $3 billion in needs unmet. ([15:25])
• Clinics are overwhelmed: “I met a lot of women who said to us that this is our lifeline… We travel 1.5, 2 hours to get here…” ([16:54])
• Refugee camps at the Torkham crossing face dire conditions, with rising radicalization risks if stability and hope are not restored.

Addressing U.S. Policy and Accountability

“We have monitoring mechanisms… to ensure when we do aid provision, it is really for the most needy… The money is being very well spent in the right places for those who need it most.” (Ibrahim, [21:27])

On Women and Girls

• Restrictions are severe, but some support and education projects continue despite bans.
• “We would hate to see women and girls continue to be set aside from labor opportunities, education, health, and all other opportunities in life.” ([24:05])

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III. Culture, History, and Power

[26:09–38:52] – Ryan Calais Cameron on "Retrograde" and McCarthyism

• Playwright Cameron discusses his discovery of Sidney Poitier, the research behind "Retrograde," and the parallels between 1950s McCarthyism and current events.
• Poitier’s dilemma: Being pressured to become a star only by renouncing his integrity and denouncing others, notably Paul Robeson.

“The price is his soul, man. His integrity... He has to sell out or... give the name of Paul Robeson... what is more important, his integrity or moving along in this industry?" (Cameron, [30:03])

• Parallels to today’s culture wars and censorship: “If we don't rectify some of the things we're seeing today... we might get somewhere that looks a lot like the world in Retrograde... And now it's reality.” ([33:42])

• Discussion of masculinity and positive role models, especially for black boys and young men.

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[38:54–53:49] – Edward Berger on the Film "Conclave"

• Berger discusses Conclave, a film about the secretive process to elect a new pope.
• The Vatican’s internal struggle between reformists and traditionalists mirrors “current world politics.”

“There's traditionalist or populist movements and there [are] liberals all over the world... we've lost the ability to listen to each other... everyone's a fundamentalist in their opinion.” (Berger, [43:47])

• Reflection on the Church’s issues with diversity, power, and accountability.
• The role and symbolic hope for feminine voices in the future of the Catholic Church:

“[At the end,] there is a crack in the foundation of this old patriarchy. And there’s a light that shines through that crack. And that light is the hope for change, possibly also feminine.” (Berger, [51:04])

• Responses to criticism from both conservative and liberal sides of the Church, with recognition of the institution’s internal divisions.

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IV. Notable Quotes & Moments

• Father Carlos Ferrero [06:36]: “For all of us and for the people was a big encouragement to know that the Pope himself is calling us every day… this is the hour of the Pope."
• Cardinal Pizzaballa (quoted) [08:00]: “I will never forget their steadfast faith… they told me, ‘We will stay here as long as the Church stands with us, we are not afraid.’”
• Christiane Amanpour on Pope Francis’ Calls [11:14]: “In Pope Francis’ final Easter message, the day before he died, he prayed for, quote, the light of peace to radiate throughout the Holy Land and the entire world.”
• Shireen Ibrahim [22:40]: “Please remember that this is a humanitarian crisis, that people are deserving of humanitarian support... stabilization, so that the issues of today are not exacerbated.”
• Ryan Calais Cameron [33:42]: “For me as an artist, one point is like, wow, my play is really relevant. And also, this is really scary because... it was almost like a fever dream. And now it’s reality.”
• Edward Berger [51:04]: “There’s a crack in the foundation of this old patriarchy. And there’s a light that shines through that crack... the hope for change, possibly also feminine.”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Quote | |-----------|--------------| | 01:20–03:56 | Death of Pope Francis, setup for Gaza priest interview | | 03:56–11:14 | Father Ferrero on war, loss, the Pope’s nightly calls | | 13:43–26:06 | Shireen Ibrahim on Afghanistan’s humanitarian crisis | | 26:09–38:52 | Playwright Ryan Calais Cameron on “Retrograde” & McCarthyism | | 38:54–53:49 | Director Edward Berger on Vatican politics in “Conclave” |

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Summary & Takeaways

• The episode revolves around the passing of Pope Francis and his remarkable, intimate support for Gaza’s embattled Christian community, exemplified by nightly phone calls in the face of deprivation and war.
• Father Carlos Ferrero’s firsthand account underscores the existential hardship in Gaza but also the spiritual resilience, fostered by the Church and the Pope’s pastoral attention—a “lifeline” for believers.
• The broader crisis of political policy and humanitarian aid is tied in through the Afghanistan segment, showing how U.S. decisions impact millions—and particularly women and children—on the ground.
• Cultural segments around McCarthyism and Vatican politics question how institutions face (or avoid) change, discrimination, and internal struggle—whether in religion, government, or the arts.
• The legacy of Pope Francis, both as a connector across divides and a voice for the suffering, looms large, while the succession and future shape of the Church—and of hope—remains uncertain.

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This summary captures the heart of a wide-ranging episode: faith under fire in Gaza, humanitarian crises in Afghanistan, historical memory in pop culture, and the power struggles inside the oldest institutions in the world.

Transcript

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[Father Carlos Ferrero]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up for all of.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Us and for the people was a big encouragement to know that the Pope himself is calling us every day.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Gaza grieves Pope Francis. I speak with a priest there about nightly calls from the Vatican.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Then we are no longer able to do any kind of programming, humanitarian or otherwise, with US Government funds.

[Christiane Amanpour]

As the White House slashes foreign aid, the real life impacts are felt in Afghanistan. The International Rescue Committee Shireen Ibrahim joins me from Kabul.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

And for me, as an artist, you know, one point is like, wow, my play is really relevant. And also she's really scary.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Playwright Ryan Calais Cameron brings us back to 1950s Hollywood and Sidney Poitier's formidable fight against McCarthyism. Also ahead, well, Gardener Lawrence, it seems the responsibility for the Conclave falls upon you. Conclave, the award winning movie that lifted the veil on how the Catholic Church selects people. A new Pope. My conversation with director Edward Berger. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In London. It's been a week of mourning and reflection after the death of Pope Francis on Monday. His legacy will be as a bridge in the great church struggle between conservative and more liberal reforms. But also, most importantly, an increasingly lonely voice for humanity and a moral authority. A pontiff who put his flock first. Engaging with Catholics all over the world, even a tiny population living in the midst of war torn Gaza from the beginning, Francis condemned the Hamas attack on Israel, called for the hostages release, and spoke against rising antisemitism. He was an outspoken critic as well of Israel's s on the enclave, repeatedly calling for an end to the conflict and the human suffering in Gaza. And for the last 18 months of his life, he called Gaza's only Catholic church every night. The final one on Saturday lasted 30 seconds. Just enough time to say hello and ask if everyone was okay. Now one of those parish priests, Father Carlos Ferrero, joins me from Gaza. Father Carlos Ferrero, welcome to the program. How are you feeling right now?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Hello, everybody, and thank you for inviting us here. We are affected, of course, by the situation and by the news. We know Pope Francis passed away, and the church is now mobilizing on prayers for Pope Francis, eternal rest, but also for the election of the new pope. Those are the purposes of our prayers all the time, but in very particular way. We are praying for peace. We are praying for this situation to stop, that a lot of humanitarian help needed maybe come in, and that we may have a way forward.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, Father, you talk about humanitarian aid every day. We get a message from the people of Gaza and the Palestinian people saying that, you know, it's now more than 50 days of a total siege. No bread, no water, no medicine. How is that affecting your Christian community there, your Catholic community, and everybody else who you are in touch with?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Yes, well, that is a real problem because, you know, I learned it since I was here. I'm almost. In 15 days, I will be one, one full year inside here, the compound with all the refugees. We are about nearly 500 people now. And here, the traditional way of eating is with bread. You know, sometimes we use bread to accompany the food we are eating. But I could see that many people here, most of the people, they eat bread with the food that they are having. So not having bread is really shocking. It's a real need for the people.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, it was notable that one of Pope Francis, in fact, maybe his last call that was lasting only 30 seconds, asked, you know, people, were they eating? What were they eating? He was pretty concerned about your daily needs.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Yes, indeed he was. Every time he called, he said, how are you talking to Father Youssef or to one of us, how are you? First, then the sister, and then he will say, how is the people? How are the people? Are they okay? Are they happy? What do they need? And like this every time, in every call. And the last time he called was on Saturday, the Holy Saturday for us. And he asked the Same questions, of course.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Father, how did this start? What made the Pope decide? Every single night at 8pm he would call the Catholic community in Gaza.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

He understood that here in Gaza, because of the war situation and having a Christian community so small compared to the general population. Imagine these 2.3 million inhabitants here in Gaza and we are only 1000 and something Christians. Nowadays we are even less because some have gone out, some have being killed or died. So the community is very small. And I'm sure he thought we were in need to have a company. A word. Encouragement like that for all of us and for the people was a big encouragement to know that the Pope himself is calling us every day. People came to say this when it was reaching 8pm people local time, they would say, this is the hour of the Pope, the hour of the Pope and try to come close to the priestly house to hear something about the call. And sometimes in the video calls, we also greet the Pope, we show the people the people were greeting the Pope and the Pope greeting the people and things like this many times. So it was really a pastoral thing. And I could say the Patriarch of Jerusalem, Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzabala, did the same.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to read something that he said. He said, this is the Cardinal. I was very surprised that they were the ones who taught me a lesson, talking about your, your, your parishioners there. I will never forget their steadfast faith carried with heartwarming smiles, left a mark on me and my life. I saw hope and optimism in their eyes. They told me, we will stay here as long as the Church stands with us, we are not afraid. And he said the Cardinal, I was really impressed by the attitude. It was such a courageous and faithful attitude under siege and bombardment and war. What have you learned from the people who you've shared this last year with?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

They trust in the Church a lot. The issue that the Pope was calling or the Patriarch was so close and they call this the house of Jesus. So they say, let us refuge there. We take refuge in the house of Jesus. Where do we go? There is no any secure place, safety place here in Gaza now. And so. But they say, well, we better be in the house of Jesus. That's amazing. This is what we call in the gospel language we say the simplicity of the faith. We believe. We believe God is protecting us. We believe God has given us the angels to accompany and protect us. And all the people are having that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Was your church spared bombardment, obviously. So many mosques were bombed, so many civilian structures, hospitals, schools, et cetera, were bombed. All the Israelis saying they were looking for Hamas. Was your church spared?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Our compound was bombarded also in the time, I think it was January 2024, when they bombed the side of the what you call a home of peace where the sisters of Mother Teresa of Calcutta have a home of disabled children. Still, there are 50 people and a tank bomb there. And they destroyed the generator, they destroyed the fuel tank, they destroyed part of the building. And then in that month, also December or January, we had snipers around our compound, but I was not inside yet. I came in in May, but we know this for a fact. And they shot dead two people inside our compound. The old lady who came out of the room going to the toilet and then she was shot. And when the daughter saw that, she tried to help the mother and then the second person was shot again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And these were snipers from who? From where?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

From the idf, Israeli Defense Force. Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay. Well, listen, Father, you are all very, very strong and you are committed and we're really pleased to have your perspective and to be able to talk to you, particularly your reflections about what the Pope did for you for all these many, many months of this terrible, terrible war. Thank you, Father.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

God bless you. Thank you, too. Thank you for inviting us.

[Christiane Amanpour]

At the time of the incident, the IDF told CNN that it was investigating them and it was operating against Hamas terrorists in the area. And in Pope Francis final Easter message, the day before he died, he prayed for, quote, the light of peace to radiate throughout the Holy Land and the entire world. But there is no end in sight for this war on Gaza. As Israel's far right finance Minister Smotrich says, bringing the hostages back is not the most important goal. Destroying Hamas remains the priority. Later in the program, retrograde, the West End play showcasing Sidney Poitier's battle against the Red Scare. I speak with the playwright Ryan Calais Cameron about the uncanny parallels. Today. Foreign.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of.

[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Father Carlos Ferrero]

To do with those annoying cookie pop ups, and more. To help me answer these rapid fire.

[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Father Carlos Ferrero]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Helps people and companies keep their data Safe. Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wherever you get your podcasts, welcome back. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has announced major plans to overhaul the State Department including closing an office advancing American values abroad, as well as nearly 30 overseas embassies and consulates, another blow to America's soft power around the globe. Meantime, much of the world is already suffering from Trump's crippling cuts to usaid, the foreign aid agency that provides nearly half the globe's humanitarian relief. Or it did. One of the worst hit is Afghanistan. Medical services are dwindling. Millions are facing malnutrition. And Shireen Ibrahim is the International Rescue Committee's country Director for Afghanistan, overseeing 22 clinics. She joined me from there to discuss the devastating impacts, especially for the most vulnerable, the women and the children. Shirin Ebrahim, welcome to the program.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Christiane, we find you in Kabul.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

That's correct.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How dire is the situation for the people of Afghanistan right now? It's said that some 23 million people need humanitarian assistance.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So, Christiane, you're absolutely right. 23 million and counting people, whether men, women or children, need humanitarian assistance. But on top of that, we know that approximately 16 million people are in dire food insecurity situations and approximately 14 million alone cannot access basic health needs. As you know, Afghanistan is coming out of decades of conflict, economic instability, Asia's largest displacement crisis. And on top of all of that, as I want to allude to, we also have the sixth largest climate vulnerable country in the world. So all of that coupled together makes for a very difficult situation.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, Shirin, the, the, the aid has stopped because America has stopped it. The USAID has been stopped in its tracks. I just want to get it clear from you, because depending on what day of the week you ask what American official, they say, well, actually life saving aid continues and, oh, well, that you've told us has been defunded, but now we're gonna refund it. What is the facts? Because we hear that in many parts of the world that aid is not there. And there's a lot of death and a lot of illness and a lot of, of other problems because that aid has been so suddenly cut off.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So last year alone, Christiane, the US Government and the people of the United states contributed almost 54% of all humanitarian funding to Afghanistan to meet humanitarian needs. This year, that is no longer the case. And there's approximately $3 billion worth of humanitarian needs that will not be met today. Clearly, there was a decision to stop the funding to restart humanitarian life saving support. We proceeded to support women, children and our clients that we serve. And then more recently, that aid, whether humanitarian or not, has stopped. So the facts that I know of as the representative of the International Rescue Committee is that we are no longer able to do any kind of programming, humanitarian or otherwise, with US government funds.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's really beggars belief this and that. The level of chaos in terms of the knowledge of what's going on or the disregard for what is happening to these, you know, previous beneficiaries is really, really disheartening. You've also, you know, you go into clinics. I've been into many in Kabul where I assume they're in the best state. But what are you seeing in Kabul and outside where even less sophisticated means are available?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So just last week I was in Batikot in Nangarhar, one of the eastern provinces of Afghanistan. I visited one of the health clinics that the US government was supporting, one of the many health clinics supported around the country. I'm seeing a microcosm of what I shared, which is difficulties to access basic health services. I met a lot of women who said to us that this is our lifeline. It is a free service that we have relied on for many years. We travel one and a half, two hours to get here because it relieves us of having to pay for health support. But clearly these health services clinics are quite overburdened. When I was there on that day, the registry showed 150 women being served at that clinic for a range of issues that they come for, whether it's prenatal care, postnatal care, vaccinations for their children, nutritional advice, psychosocial support, midwifery support. The range of options that are provided by these health clinics are really critical because the nearest hospital is quite a distance and the affordability obviously and the medicines that are provided through the health clinics are critical for survival. This life saving support must continue and we're committed to continuing it. Although as I shared, we are disheartened by the fact that we are not able to meet this, the scale of the need.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You've sent us some footage which we're playing right now. Now this shows the Torkham Crossing which is on the Pakistan border. Thousands of Afghan refugees are now going back to Pakistan because of this skyrocketing new humanitarian needs since USAID has been cut off. And as we've said, the UN World Food Program says this could be a death sentence for millions. But let me ask you this. U.S. officials say the cuts may also stoke conditions that prompt people to join any such extremist groups. The latest one, you know, being isisk. Do you, does that factor into your situation too? I mean, do you know have you seen in the past when these kinds of, you know, lack of humanitarian assistance creates a more radicalized population?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So again, last week I was at the Torcam crossing. The situation in the camp that has been established is very dire. The camp is receiving three to five thousand individuals crossing every day. But what I'm also seeing is that they are quick to find options to leave the camp. The camp conditions are very difficult, and they know that they have to move out very quickly. So many people decide to connect with loved ones in other parts of Afghanistan. Whether or not these conditions are bearable, people are happy, is very difficult to ascertain right now because of the very quick flow in and out. But the conditions in the camp are very difficult. And I would hope that one of our calls for support is really a call to say, help us to stabilize and help us to give hope and help us to normalize, you know, the conditions for people so that they can settle in safety and so that insecurity does not prevail. And one of the ways we can do that is to ensure that people are able to access livelihoods, they have safe shelters. You know, it is, it is a, it is an opportunity to help stabilize rather than, you know, push people to more radical alternatives.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And it is kind of extraordinary because it condemns a whole nation in what's known as collective punishment. When the State Department says that it's not restarting funding in Yemen or Afghanistan because, quote, credible and longstanding concerns that funding was benefiting terrorist groups, including the Houthis and the Taliban, you know where the funding is going in Afghanistan, right? And, you know, I guess who's getting it? How do you respond to that?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So, I mean, we have systems in place, we have criteria in place, we have monitoring mechanisms in place to ensure that when we do outreach, when we do selection, when we do aid provision, it is really for the most needy. I mentioned the health clinics where we work with women and children. The situation for them is very dire. And so our criteria, our monitoring mechanism, our distribution mechanisms, and our post distribution follow up, which is what we do to look at where the aid is going and how it's benefiting people, is very tight. And we are very satisfied with those mechanisms. And we can, you know, assure the public that the money is being very well spent in the right places for those who need it most.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What would you say? Because obviously I've seen all these sacks of USAID aid and each one says, a gift of the people of the United States. And now I don't know how people are thinking about the United States since that life saving gift has been yanked away from them. What would you say if you could, to the Trump administration or the people of the United States about the, about the needs?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Well, first I would say to the people of the United States that The tradition of U.S. generosity, especially from the U.S. public, is one that needs to continue. It is not one that is forgotten. In fact, that it is well recognized and it is often called a lifeline of support. So it is very well received and very well respected and appreciated. I would say to the people of the United States, please remember that this is a humanitarian crisis, that people are deserving of humanitarian support, that this is the global community needs to recognize that this is a country that requires support, stabilization, so that the issues of today are not exacerbated. I don't comment on politics, but I certainly comment on the humanitarian imperative of the global community to come together and continue to support the people of Afghanistan.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And obviously we know, and you alluded to it, that the people who suffer the most are the ones whose rights are really trampled. And that is women and girls. What is happening right now? I mean, what are women able to do publicly and maybe behind the scenes?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Well, so you may know, Christiane, that there has been, have been several directives preventing women from working and preventing women, young girls from accessing school above a certain age. But there are obviously rays of hope, glimmers of hope here and there in terms of our ability to reach young girls, to provide them with the necessary support in terms of education, as well as to support women as they develop their businesses at home. Women, as you know, are powerful, resourceful, and we want to continue to encourage that through whatever small businesses and entrepreneurial efforts that they have. So unfortunately, it is somewhat restricted for women in Afghanistan. There are bans on work and forms of education. However, we are able to find ways and creative ways in which we are able to, to reach and support women and girls. Obviously not at the scale that we would like. We recognize as well. Last year, I believe the World bank issued a study that said that the GDP of Afghanistan in the next decade could be revitalized by 30 to 40% if women were allowed back into the labor market. So there is great potential. We'd love to capitalize on that potential. And we would hate to see women and girls continue to be, you know, set aside from labor opportunities, education opportunities, health opportunities and all other opportunities in.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Life, one of the tragic byproducts of the US Administration's basic negotiation just with the Taliban in order to get out of Afghanistan. Thank you so much, Shireen Ibrahim.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Thank you, Christiane.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Next we turn to a dark time in American history rearing its ugly head again. McCarthyism in the 1950s, where the hunt for communists led to blacklists, exiles and ruined lives. It's backdrop to a new play here in London by Ryan Kelly Cameron, one of Britain's most exciting playwrights. Retro takes an episode in the early life of Sidney Poitier, the groundbreaking Hollywood actor who became the first black man to win the Oscar for Best actor. But before all that, Poitier had faced a career breaking dilemma and a very ugly choice. Ryan Kelly Cameron, thank you for coming in.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Thank you for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

From a busy schedule with this new hit West End play. The thing is, I was astonished to read that you didn't even know who Sidney Poitier was.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When you started.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, about a decade ago. I heard of him. I knew something, someone that was really important, but I wasn't educated on this man. I didn't know his brilliance or how much of a trailblazer he was or how significant he was about to be to my life.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You hadn't seen any of his films?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

No, I hadn't. I'd seen clips, you know, black and white stuff. I think I was at a stage in my career where I was like, anything black and white was like, ah, that's old, you know, I didn't realize it. Oh, I appreciate it a lot more.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what made you choose Sidney Poetier? I mean, literally, if anybody sees the play, which they do, retrograde. It's a case study about McCarthyism through essentially one day, just about a meeting in an office.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me it was a case of like, I hate not understanding something, you know, I feeling ignorant. So for me it was. I don't know about this man, but he seems to have such significance and importance to a lot of people. That's the beginning of my research, you know, and I was researching a lot of stuff and the more I researched, the more I was fascinated by him. And I came across this article that he was, he was speaking with Oprah about one time that he was at NBC and he almost got blacklisted. And I was like, what I'd heard about the blacklisting. So, so much, so much of my, I knew that kind of stuff, but I never heard of it from the perspective of a black actor. Someone that was already dealing with Jim Crow redlining and then now this. I was like, that to me sounds like the beginnings of a story. And as I continued to read about what happened to him through his memoirs, you know, it started to sound more like a thriller. And I was like, okay, someone's gotta be writing this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you know it is. I said to myself, I said I was on the edge of my seat because I know a lot about this stuff.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I had no idea whether. Whether he was going to submit or not. Let's get to it. So now let's start with one of the early monologues from. Or dialogues from the play. So he's in the meeting with the writer who's going to make him the star of an NBC program that's gonna skyrocket his career. And there's the company lawyer or the production guy.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And he says, yes, but. So here's what Sidney Poitier says about the script that's just been handed to him.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Fantastic. I'm leafing through the script. I'm like, marty, I. I don't understand. I don't understand what the part is. He says, buddy, it's Tommy. He's offered you Tommy. See, I think about that moment a lot. I didn't even assume when being offered something, even from a friend, that I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I would be one of the central.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Storytellers without caricature or stereotype. See, I love this movie because it brings something otherworldly that people like yourself cannot even fathom.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So there he was, expressing his joy and delight at getting this leading role.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And then they tell him, but actually it comes with some very ugly strings attached.

[Edward Berger]

Exactly.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

It comes at a price. So the price is his soul man. You know, it's everything that he. That he is that made him who he is. His integrity, you know, and he has to sell out or he has to give the name of. I'm trying not to give too much away, but he has to give the name of Paul Robeson, who is a massive giant of a man and icon to him. And he has to consider what is more important to him. His integrity or moving along in this industry that he's a newcomer in. And there's a lot more stakes than that. But, yeah, I want people to see.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It, because it really is. You don't really know if you don't know the full story. And you know that so many did sell out. So many people were blacklisted. Charlie Chaplin, for instance, was blacklisted. Could never. Pretty much could never work again after that. So it was really serious. And a lot of actors like Sidney Poitier, who had no money and had a family and kids, they really. They couldn't afford.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Exactly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And then it moves on. And we'll get to the. I don't know, the spoiler alert or not, but there is a moment in the play where he talks about. And you. Well, you wanted to pay homage to something Sidney Poitier had done in an actual film called the Heat of the Night, when he stared down and actually engaged in some physical retaliation.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So tell us what you were trying to do with that. Yeah, I'm going to play the. This is in the heat of the night, Sidney Poitier and the plantation owner.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

We were just trying to clarify some of the evidence. Was Mr. Colbert ever in this greenhouse, say, last night about midnight? So that slap is the slap that echoes through generations to me. You know, I feel like whoever you are, whatever walk of life, whatever decade, you feel the weight of that. And I can't imagine what it felt like for an audience seeing that at that time, you know, somebody that is being. You know, he's in a position where he's always going to be oppressed or he's going to be the side character, whatever. And he's like, I've had enough. I'm slapping back, you know, And I was like, I need to get that moment in this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how did you get it in? For those who haven't seen it?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Yeah, I think it's about Sidney taking ownership over his image and over the path that he is going to take. And a moment in the play where he truly becomes the man that he was born to be, you know, and he gets won over on the big bad guy and his play, Mr. Parks, which night after night gets a massive applause from the audience. But I was trying to recreate, you know, every time I watch that slap, you know, it does that to an audience. I was at the BFI earlier on this year, and everyone cheered again. And I was like, I want that essence in my play, you know, of everybody coming together and going, yes, the good guy gets his own back at some point, you know.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And again, it is really awful what they were asked to do, whether they were black or white or man or women. You know, they were told to disavow any kind of political affiliation, in his case, civil rights, Martin Luther King, and then, as you said, denounce. And Paul Robeson actually did advocate communism for black people over capitalism. Having seen the failure of capitalism in America for black people, he had gone to the Soviet Union. So, again, this is the creative tension throughout. Did you write. I mean, you didn't Write it with today in mind. But when you see what's happening in the United States today with all of this, actually, they're calling it like a new red scare, what's happening on American campuses, you know, et cetera.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Do you know what? I did my first draft in 2018, right? And we were on at the kiln at 2023. So in between that gap was the first Trump administration. So there were a lot of things in my head when I was writing it of, like, if we don't rectify some of the things that we're seeing today, guys, in the future, we might actually get somewhere that looks a lot like the world in retrograde. You know, flash forward five years time, and we're there. So there's certain lines now that when they hit, audiences are like, did you write that today? You know what I mean? And it's like, for me as an artist, you know, one point is like, wow, my play is really relevant. And also, this is really scary. This is really scary because when I was writing it, I was like, you know, it was almost like a fever dream. And now it's reality. So, yeah, it's in the title retrograde. You know, it's like, if we don't learn from some of the things in our past, then we're due to repeat them.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you being. And you've spoken a lot about being inspired by a lot of Americana, American history, American culture. You've taken your work to the United States. Did the previous one go for black boys?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

No, that's not. I'll play my play. Queens of Sheba had gone twice.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Fine.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Ok.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So would you today want to take this play to the United States in this climate?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

I think this play belongs in the United States. It feels like, you know, when I wrote it, it had New York in mind. It's got its essence there. The characters are there. It breathes that kind of like you're saying Americana. And I think it's like you were saying, it's more relevant now than it's ever been. So, yes, I think the answer is for that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm fascinated by also what you said about, you know, you were kind of an up and coming playwright when you started, and there was a program, a philanthropic program that enabled you to actually keep writing. Tell me about it, because I don't think it exists elsewhere.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

It's the Offies Adopt a Playwright Award that is created by Sophie and Diana. And the intention of it was really looking at an industry where playwrights often get forgotten. Don't even have enough Money for rent. And it's kind of going, okay, cool. We're not going to forget about you. We're going to create a community where we're going to hold you, adopt you, in a sense, and raise money to be able to allow you to write a play. You know, getting commissions are so difficult nowadays, but they give you. At the time when I did it, which was 2018, you know, it was £8,000 to be able to write a play, and, like, I might as well have been a millionaire that year, you know, it was like, you're paying me to write. And that gave me the time and the space to be able to do my research. I couldn't have done it. It was quite a lot.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And this award, Adopt a Playwright, is not just for minorities.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Oh, no, no, no. It's for anybody that's going from any type of hardship. Any writer that needs any type of help, definitely look it up. A Dr. Playwright Award.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, it brought us this play. You said you wouldn't have written it otherwise.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

And they're always looking for donations, so.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Masculinity, your previous play for black boys was about masculinity and particularly in the black young community and, of course, adolescence. And a lot of that is coming out now. Talking about masculinity, how do you. What's your commentary on that? How do you think that story is being told and where your play fits in?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

I guess, I suppose for me, as an artist, I always try and, you know, I'm trying to grab the narrative and go, well, what's my 2 cents on it? You know, and even in something like, for black Boys, you know, it took 10 years because half of it is me writing as a very young man, and the second is me as a bit of an older man, you know, as a father, someone in my community talking to that younger man. And I think for me, the narrative often is about, look how bad these kids are. And I feel like we should also look at the community in which these kids are trying to survive in, you know, the parents, whether it's the schools, whether it's the police, and go, well, what is our job? And I think that's a bigger narrative. How are we nurturing these children and what influences are they getting of masculinity? You know, if you're in a violent environment and men are very violent in that. In that environment, then no wonder why this. This kid is acting in that kind of way or the way that men speak about women.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Do you feel that it is actually now, part of the conversation in a way that you hoped when you wrote your book, 100%.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

You know, again, seeing adolescents recently with my family, you're going, okay, this is something else that's kind of breathing more life into this conversation, I suppose, you know, for when once you watch a piece of art like that, the next thing is, well, now as a community, what do we do about it?

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you have four sons, as we discussed last time.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Exactly. So it's very important for me to be able to show them positive outlets for them to be able to be men. But also they'll do it in a very positive way. You know, we talk about toxic masculinity a lot, so that's great. But what's the antithesis of that? You know, what does positivity look like?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, an amazing play and not giving away the spoiler, does Sidney Poitier accept these ugly strings or not?

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Oh, I can't tell you that. I can't tell you that. But it is on at the Apollo right now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So no, it's really great. Ryan, Kelly Cameron, thank you so much.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Thank you as always. Thank you very much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the play is on now at London's Apollo Theatre until June. Coming up after the break, the real life upcoming Conclave and my conversation with movie director Edward Berger, whose award winning film Conclave gives us his cinematic view into one of the Catholic Church's most secret traditions. Welcome back. We turn now to a movie which takes you deep inside the the Vatican's corridors of power. And it couldn't be more relevant. Conclave Swept up in this year's awards season, based on the book by Robert Harris, is a gripping thriller about the secretive process of choosing a new Pope. It has a star studded cast, Ralph Fiennes, John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci and Isabella Rossellini. And viewership shot up almost 300% the day Pope Francis died. I spoke with the film's director, Edward Berger here in London when the film was first released. Edward Berger, welcome to the program.

[Edward Berger]

Thank you for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What was it when you read the book or the script that made you want to do it? The intrigue, the sort of richness of this and the corruption involved?

[Edward Berger]

Well, to me it played in a very similar field to what you're doing every day, reporting on politics. It was, it was, it's a political film for me. It had all the political intrigue of it. So I found that very interesting. But obviously in a setting that we can sort of transpose so we don't have to see Another political film, when we see the news every day so we can transpose. But there was one line in the script that I really loved, and it said in the stage direction, not even a dialogue. It said, out of the crooked timber of humanity, no string straight thing was ever made. And that was sort of really what we wanted to say with the film, that everyone has this something crooked, you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Know, and, boy, do we see it. Because this, of course, is the conclave that leads to the election of another pope after the other one is dead. It's an endless and historical event, and yet we very rarely see it portrayed. You certainly don't see it in reality. Where did you get your evidence or your stories about how to. Is it. Is the actual conclave true to life?

[Edward Berger]

I think we have to ask a Cadener, because those are the only ones that will be really able to tell us, but they won't, because it's obviously secret. They'll probably just watch it and go like, oh, this is right. I think Robert Harris is obviously a very wonderful novelist and a great researcher, and we had access to all his research. We talked to a whole array of cardinals who gave us. And then I had a really great religion teacher next to me from Rome, Francesco Bonomio, every single day, and he was my advisor, and he told me this is what they would do. This is now. This is the prayer, this is the oath, this is the way they vote. But at some point he also said, you know what? No one knows.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what we know, because I've reported on at least one election of a pope, is it's the. The black smoke and the white smoke. The white smoke. Everyone knows it. Everybody knows it. Right? So we wait and wait and there's several rounds in this film until you get. Or until they get the cardinals get to a super majority to elect the next pope. What I found really interesting is the power struggle between reformist cardinals and the very traditionalist cardinals. And that is portrayed, I think, pretty well in this clip, which is Cardinal Lawrence. He is played by Ralph Fiennes talking to Cardinal Bellini, who is played by Stanley Tucci. Let's listen. Father Bellini. Aldo.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Am I the last?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Not quite.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How are you? Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Have you seen the papers?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Mm.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Apparently it's already decided. It's to be me.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

And I happen to observe.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

What if I don't want it?

[Christiane Amanpour]

No sane man would want the papacy.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Some of our colleagues seem to want it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

You are more worthy than Any of us.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

I'm not.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you to pass the chalice.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And let it go to him. And I could never live with myself. Okay, so that's interesting. And it's also very. Today, I mean, Pope Francis has been the reformer, or at least tried to be, and he's had so much pushback from cardinals who are much, much more traditional. Was that something you wanted to focus on?

[Edward Berger]

Definitely. I mean, we wanted to represent the current politics of the Vatican, but also current world politics. And they're more or less the same, you know.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Explain that.

[Edward Berger]

Well, you know, there's traditionalist or populist movements and there is sort of liberals all over the world, you know, and that. And these parties, we've sort of lost the ability to listen to each other, you know, and basically everyone's a fundamentalist in their opinion, and they're not really communicating anymore. Everyone, this has to be this way, and the other party says it has to be this way. And they're clashing constantly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

There's something I think you said about, well, the Ralph Fiennes character, Cardinal Lawrence, and the sort of. Not demons, but the conflicts he has within him about his beliefs, about prayer, about all sorts of things. That's also quite interesting because you always think of these people as being absolutely clear in their faith and in their main storyline.

[Edward Berger]

Yeah. And that's what really drew me to the film. Rafe has one wonderful speech about doubt, about doubt versus certainty, and that's also liberalism versus opinions, doubt versus certainty, and about being very certain about what you believe in. And he's not right now. And he wants to have a discussion and he wants to find it. And that's something I really identified with and why I wanted to make the film. Because I think a lot of people feel that at some point in their lives, they feel like, am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right job? Am I in the right life? And trying to find your direction in life, as does Rafe in the film. So that's something for all of us, in a way.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's obvious that all the Christian churches and many other religions, they face very deep internal problems, certainly in the Catholic Church and recently, as you've seen here in the Church of England, very deep issues about sexual abuse, about the unaccountability of unelected power, the resignations, the expulsions. How did you deal with that in this movie, if at all?

[Edward Berger]

Yeah, it's not a movie about that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, no.

[Edward Berger]

We didn't want to do, let's say, an investigation of the. It's really a different subject matter. So we spoke about it, we hinted at it because we obviously said we can't do a movie without ever mentioning it. That would be sort of putting the blinders on. So we mentioned it two or three times throughout the movie. But there's other movies like Spotlight who really investigate that. I think it's a subject matter where you need a whole movie to dedicate yourself and not just sort of a little topic.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, no, I understand. But for instance, you have one cardinal who is derailed because of a quote, unquote, MeToo incident. I mean, there's. And that's in itself a sort of conspiracy where another cardinal brings this young woman over essentially to derail this black African cardinal's chances. I thought that was very powerful because it talked about that issue, but it also, I think subliminally there was, if I'm not mistaken, commentary about can we really have a first black Pope? So that's an issue.

[Edward Berger]

Oh, definitely. You know, it's an issue in the church. You know, I think there's a lot of. I mean, the church has a problem in a way, or the Catholicism has a problem. That used to be all Italian until 50 years ago. There were like, for 500 years, Italian popes. And there are a lot of Italians. And then, you know, there's maybe 50, 60 cardinals now, Italian cardinals. And obviously they want the Italian again. They hate anyone from any other country, you know, most of them at least. And so. But their fraction is not big enough, you know, to really vote Italian. So that is always an issue, you know, that, you know, foreigners in general in Italy is a difficult thing for the church to accept. And then having an African cardinal is probably, you know, the worst for some of them, unfortunately.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I want to ask you, because, you know, we talked about reaction and stuff. I don't know whether you've heard or what you've seen on audience reaction. What has been. What have you noticed from audiences online or wherever?

[Edward Berger]

Well, I don't look because it's just so. I'm glad that you can read it to me now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, I'm actually going to read you a reaction from the church. It was released last month, as we know, in the United States, and as you can imagine, in the United States, which has a significant faction of very traditionalist cardinals. This Bishop Robert Barron, who's a Minnesota cardinal, tweeted this, and this is just bits of it. If you're interested in a film about the Catholic Church that could have been written by the editorial board of the New York Times. This is your movie. Since it checks practically every woke box. I'm sure it'll win a boatload of awards. But my advice is to run away from it as fast as you can. So that's one. And then there's Thomas Rees, who's a Jesuit, more liberal leaning. He told. And he was a persistent critic of Pope Benedict. He told cnn, if I'm not mistaken, the acting and production values were great, but the plot twists were bizarre and unbelievable. Answer those reactions.

[Edward Berger]

Well, you know, I mean, there's going to be a million opinions and the Catholic Church doesn't speak with one voice. As you can see, everyone's going to have an opinion. And I would say, you know, from. I heard from a lot of cardinals before, oh, we're going to watch the movie. And I believe that they're just going to enjoy it and going to say it's just a movie, you know, as in terms of the plot twist and that, you know, I was speaking about fundamentalism earlier, especially in the U.S. i think the U.S. catholics, or us in general, very often is more fundamentalist than the European side. And I find it very hard to refute or discuss with fundamentalists because they don't really actually want to listen.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But they also have very vested interests. I mean, they really believe that the Catholic Church has to still be, I mean, probably speaking Latin and all of the congregants have to be speaking Latin. It is a power struggle. And then there's the final twist. Are we going to talk about it here?

[Edward Berger]

It's going to be difficult.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It is, isn't it?

[Edward Berger]

Well, I think what we can talk about is, I mean, that there's, you know, obviously women don't have much of a voice.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Actually, let's talk about that, because you're right, Isabella Rossellini, the wonderful actress, daughter of Ingrid Bergman and I. You know, Ingrid Bergman did a famous film where she portrayed a nun. If I'm not mistaken, this is Mary. There you go. And suddenly to see her daughter look so like her was really quite amazing. But she also stood up for women. She said, you know, we may not have a voice, but we have ears. And she was very clear on trying to root out some of the Machiavellian power intrigues. But again, for Catholics, it's like, when are we gonna have women elected to some position, at least of power in the church? That was something you thought about?

[Edward Berger]

Absolutely. I mean, femininity is a really important part of this movie. Even though even a person like Isabella Person with the biggest aura and charisma in the world is relegated to the 30th line row in the back of the Catholic Church, having to be silent. And she finally opens her voice, and everyone kind of applauds her, at least in the audience. But she's not the only thing of femin. Not the only element of femininity in the.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When you say femininity, do you mean feminism or actual femininity?

[Edward Berger]

Femininity and feminism. I mean both.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I don't want to put words in your.

[Edward Berger]

No, I. I would say femininity. Okay, femininity element.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

But.

[Edward Berger]

But as there is no femininity in the Catholic Church, I would say that's a feminist voice. And there's something in the end and. And that. That we can't really talk about. But at least Rafe has seen a crack in the foundation of this old patriarchy. And there's a light that shines through that crack. And that light is the change for hope, the hope for change, you know, that the future is possibly also feminine. Oh, my goodness.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's really interesting, and we're not gonna say it, but I have to say, as a viewer, I mean, you ended it right there. I mean, on a cliff, right? You have this big reveal, and the film ends, and I'm like, oh, can we just have some more? What does this mean?

[Edward Berger]

Oh, the film could have been longer. Okay, good.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Not about long.

[Edward Berger]

Yeah, well, it means exactly that, you know, it's the oldest patriarchy in the world, and possibly it's time for a change. You know, that there is not. I mean, which structure? What has that. And I think to be open for that change and to open your doors towards, you know, the feminine voice and voices from anywhere, I mean, would be. Would be quite interesting, you know, and actually, you know, advantageous for the organization, I believe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, you can imagine that many Catholic women believe that as well. And finally, just the filming, obviously, all quiet on the Western front was completely different. Look, this was a lot inside structures, clearly a lot of walking and whispering in corridors. But it was a lot of light and shade that you used. Tell me about that. What was that to do?

[Edward Berger]

Well, there's a director called Alan Pekula who did a lot of political thrillers in the 70s or the President's Men for the great Washington Watergate scandal movie. And he works really well with precision and architecture and light and shade. And he was sort of the inspiration for this movie. And I wanted to do exactly the opposite then in all quiet, make it very sort of closed quarter I mean, feel the oppression, feel the claustrophobia of a conclave. They're locked away for a few weeks. The shutters go down, the sound is off. You don't hear anything. You don't see anything from outside. So that by the end, when Rafe does see this hope for change, it's almost a relief when the shutters open and the air comes back in and the light comes back in and you hear feminine laughter outside. Three nuns laughing.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's how you end.

[Edward Berger]

So that's the end of the movie. Yeah. And that's sort of maybe a little bit of a relief that we found progress.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Great. Well done.

[Edward Berger]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you.

[Edward Berger]

Thank you for watching it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the real life conclave for the next pope will begin in about two to three weeks. That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

This week on the Assignment with Me, Audie Cornish. My guest is Larry Wilmore. He's a writer and producer who's worked on some of the most successful shows of the century. In Living Color, the Bernie Mac, the Daily Show, Blackish, Insecure. We're just naming a few. But in his heart, he's still a comedian.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm getting back into doing standup again.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

Which I really haven't done full time in a while.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So. What? Wait a second.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Like, you're going.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

You're doing open mics?

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

I'm going up Saturday night.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm gonna start working on a new hour. Yeah.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

So it's a little scary.

[Father Carlos Ferrero]

Audie, don't give me your hug.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I can imagine. What do you think is pulling at your chest here?

[Shireen Ibrahim]

I feel like I have to say something.

[Ryan Calais Cameron]

I can't stay silent anymore about just.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The world that I'm in. Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish.

[Shireen Ibrahim]

Streaming now on your favorite podcast, Apple.