Gender Equality and Historic Movements

Summary

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Amanpour — "Gender Equality and Historic Movements"

Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)
Date: October 25, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Amanpour delves into pivotal movements and stories shaping conversations around gender equality, justice, and world affairs. It opens with a focus on Iceland’s historic 1975 women’s strike for equality, featuring insights from Iceland’s President Hatla Thomas Doltier and filmmaker Pamela Hogan about the legacy and lessons of that day. The program then shifts to explore the Oscar-winning West Bank documentary "No Other Land," followed by features on the world's fastest nonagenarian sprinter, NATO’s past and future, U.S.-Venezuela tensions, and literary reflections with author Philip Pullman.

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Iceland’s 1975 Women’s Strike: Lessons in Activism and Unity

[00:07 – 10:20]

Main Points & Insights

• Introduction to the Strike:
  Amanpour sets the stage for the episode, recalling Iceland’s 1975 "Day Off," where 90% of women in the country stopped all work to demonstrate their indispensability. The event is revisited in Pamela Hogan's documentary The Day Iceland Stood Still.

• Economic and Social Case for Equality:
  Amanpour cites Christine Lagarde and World Bank data underlining that gender equality isn’t just a moral issue but one of profit, growth, and societal stability.

  "In finance, in banks that have more women or in supervisory authorities... it is more stable, it is safer, it is more secure. There are less risks taken." — Christiane Amanpour [01:40]

• Personal Memories and Impact:
  President Hatla Thomas Doltier recounts her mother’s participation, expressing the day inspired her own journey to leadership.

  "They wanted to show that they matter. And I think that was maybe the beginning of me thinking that one day I might want to matter, too." — Hatla Thomas Doltier [04:20]

• Systemic Discrimination of the Past (and Present):
  Hogan describes the societal limitations faced by women pre-strike, such as name erasure from doorbells and phone books, and job listings segregated — and unequal — by gender.

  "Jobs were advertised for men or for women. And of course, the women’s jobs were paid less and were lower levels." — Pamela Hogan [06:23]

• Solidarity and Pragmatic Activism:
  The movement bridged divides between “radical” and more “conservative” women by framing the strike as a “day off,” leading to broad-based participation—a feat achieved without modern communication tools.

  "They found a bridge between those words so everybody could participate. And 90% of the women participated and did no work that day." — Hatla Thomas Doltier [07:41]

• The Ongoing Challenge & Men's Role:
  President Doltier underscores that gender equality remains a frontier to conquer and calls for men’s and boys’ active participation in progress.

  "Closing the gender gap isn’t a woman’s issue. It’s really about economic and social progress." — Hatla Thomas Doltier [09:00]

Notable Moment

• Quote:

  "If women don’t work, everything collapses." — Hatla Thomas Doltier [03:22]

Timestamps

• Iceland Strike Segment: [00:07 – 10:20]

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"No Other Land": Documentary on Life Under Occupation

[10:22 – 18:55]

Main Points & Insights

• On-the-Ground Reality in the West Bank:
  Palestinian filmmaker Basil Adra and Israeli journalist Yuval Abraham discuss daily settler violence and systematic displacement in Masafar Yatta, drawing from their award-winning documentary.

  "Settlers... stole one of the caves... and started a new illegal outpost. Israeli occupation forces joined them and kick away the families." — Basil Adra [12:31]

• Commemoration and Grief:
  Both co-directors wear shirts memorializing their murdered colleague, Gauda Hadalin, killed by a settler.

  "Awda was filming actually the last moments of his life." — Yuval Abraham [13:41]

• Barriers to U.S. Distribution:
  Adra and Abraham detail U.S. distributors’ reluctance to pick up their film, believing political considerations stymied its reach.

  "I think they’re politically trying to block us from reaching the American audience." — Basil Adra [15:41]
  "We were always told, wait... if you win [the Oscar], we will take the film. We won. And nothing happened." — Yuval Abraham [16:33]

• The Call for International Solidarity:
  Both filmmakers urge more vocal international support and emphasize that change requires exposure and action.

  "People need to see the reality on the ground. They need to see the truth so that it changes." — Yuval Abraham [16:55]

Notable Moments

• Quote:

  "Our ethnic cleansing here in Masafiyat and all over across the West Bank is not stopping... we need like the people who are protesting in the street, politicians to do more." — Basil Adra [18:00]

Timestamps

• Documentary Segment: [10:22 – 18:55]

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Spotlight: Emma Mazenga, Age-Defying Sprinter

[20:10 – 23:09]

Key Insights

• Background:
  Italian sprinter Emma Mazenga, age 92, smashed world records—including a 200m indoor record for her age group—and is a subject of scientific study for her extraordinary fitness and longevity.
• Comeback Story:
  Mazenga resumed competitive running at age 53, after a 25-year break for teaching, marriage, and family.
• Science of Longevity:
  Researchers discover her heart and muscle health rival that of people decades younger.

Notable Moment

• Statistic:
  Mazenga’s cardiorespiratory fitness is akin to someone in their 50s; her muscle mitochondria, to a 20-year-old.

Timestamps

• Emma Mazenga Segment: [20:10 – 23:09]

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Jens Stoltenberg: Reflections from 10 Years Leading NATO

[23:09 – 30:41]

Main Points & Insights

• Critical Moments in NATO:
  Stoltenberg shares how close NATO came to unraveling under Trump’s threats to quit unless defense funding increased at the 2018 summit.

  "If the US President had left a NATO summit and declared that he was no longer willing to defend NATO allies, then NATO would have ceased to exist." — Jens Stoltenberg [23:26]

• On Ukraine:
  Stoltenberg expresses regret NATO didn’t deliver decisive support earlier, believing more could have been done to save Ukrainian lives and territories.

  "Had we provided more support earlier on, many Ukrainian lives could have been saved." — Jens Stoltenberg [24:47]

• Leadership and Diplomacy:
  He describes President Zelenskyy’s growth into a historic leader and candidly recounts difficult meetings with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov.

  "[Zelenskyy] turned out to be... a strong political leader with personal courage and also the skills to inspire a whole nation." — Jens Stoltenberg [26:01]
  "[Lavrov] insulted you at one point... 'Why am I even sitting here? You have no opinions of your own, Stoltenberg.'" — Christiane Amanpour [26:45]

• Navigating Political Contradictions:
  Stoltenberg reveals his tightrope-walking during post-summit interviews, needing to hold the alliance together without publicly contradicting world leaders.

  "When you’re Secretary General, NATO, there is one main responsibility... to keep this alliance together." — Jens Stoltenberg [30:13]

Notable Moments

• Summit Emergency:

  "He [Trump] had packed their luggages... stated that if you don't promise to pay more now, immediately, I will leave, and you need NATO more than I do." — Jens Stoltenberg [27:57]

• Behind-the-Scenes Tension:

  "Amanpour asked clear and precise questions and received vague and unclear answers from you. As you know, that's been a big complaint of mine through your 10 years of NATO." — Christiane Amanpour [30:07]

Timestamps

• NATO Segment: [23:09 – 30:41]

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Venezuela on the Brink: Excerpts from Past Interview with President Maduro

[31:58 – 34:07]

Key Points

• Perceived U.S. Threats:
  Maduro contends the U.S. seeks to control Latin America economically, politically, and militarily.

  "They want first of all the economic control... regrettably, the US elite, they have a project try to establish the hegemony and the control." — Nicolas Maduro [31:58]

• Democracy in Question:
  Amanpour challenges Maduro on election legitimacy, concentration of executive power, and press freedom. Maduro insists on the strength of Venezuelan democracy:

  "We have a democracy strengthened at all levels... none of those were the leaders of these powers." — Nicolas Maduro [33:40]

Timestamps

• Venezuela Segment: [31:58 – 34:07]

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Philip Pullman: Honoring Tragedy Through Literature

[35:31 – 37:17]

Highlights

• Character Inspired by Grenfell Victim:
  Pullman describes naming a key character in his series after Noor Huda Al Wahabi, a victim of the Grenfell fire, at the request of her family.

  "Noor Huda will have a part in the second part of the Book of Dust, which I'm writing now." — Philip Pullman [35:31]

• Returning to Lyra’s Story:
  Pullman shares how the unresolved arc of Lyra, heroine of His Dark Materials, drew him back to extend her adventures for new generations.

  "I had a sense that that wasn't the last I was going to know about Lyra..." — Philip Pullman [36:22]

Timestamps

• Pullman Segment: [35:31 – 37:17]

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Memorable Quotes

• "If women don't work, everything collapses." — Hatla Thomas Doltier [03:22]
• "People need to see the reality on the ground. They need to see the truth so that it changes." — Yuval Abraham [16:55]
• "If the US President had left a NATO summit and declared that he was no longer willing to defend NATO allies, then NATO would have ceased to exist." — Jens Stoltenberg [23:26]
• "Noor Huda will have a part in my in the second part of the Book of Dust, which I'm writing now." — Philip Pullman [35:31]

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Takeaway

This episode is a compelling tour across social movements, international crises, personal triumph, and cultural memory. It demonstrates the enduring relevance of collective action, the dangers and possibilities of political power, and the profound impact of stories both real and imagined. For those seeking inspiration and insight into ongoing struggles for justice and recognition, Amanpour serves up an enlightening, heartfelt, and thought-provoking hour.

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Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week. A revolutionary walkout for gender equality 50 years ago, Iceland's president on how her countrywomen took control of their futures. And director Pamela Hogan on capturing that moment.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

When I asked my mom and her sisters why they were on a strike, they told me very plainly that they, they wanted to show that they matter.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Then the filmmakers behind the Oscar winning West bank documentary no Other land on their fight to get it seen in the United States as violence against them spirals.

[Yuval Abraham]

People need to see the reality on the ground. They need to see the truth so that it changes. And that's what we want.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Also ahead, blink and you'll miss her, the Italian sprinter who's racing into the Record Books at 92. Her tips from staying forever young, plus getting candid with the former NATO Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg, dealing with stubborn Russians and the moment he stopped Trump from abandoning the alliance. And from my archive, on the precipice of an American war with Venezuela, I revisit my interview with President Nicolas Maduro. And finally, the world renowned children's author Philip Foreman finishes his follow up to his Dark Materials, how he chose the name of one of his crucial characters. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. We begin today's program with an amazing story of activism that was all caught on camera. It's a lesson from history about gender equality. Today's America is in a ferocious fight with dei. But as the former IMF chief Christine Lagarde once told me, if the moral argument doesn't sway you about equality, how about the dollars and cents? Business and the wider community in general that have more women at the helm are much more successful. She says it's a dollar issue because generally, firms that have women on their board or on the executive teams are more profitable. You look at the bottom line, it's very clear. And there have been many studies on that front. But more to the point, in finance, in banks that have more women or in supervisory authorities that have more women, it is more stable, it is safer, it is more secure. There are less risks taken. And you know, we have had a lot of risks. And the World bank says nations see significant growth in GDP the more equal they are. Today, America ranks 42nd on gender equality according to the World Economic Forum, while Iceland is the global leader. But 50 years ago, Iceland was seriously behind until the women there decided to take drastic action. On 24 October, 90% of women downed Tools in the workplace and at home to demonstrate their irreplaceable role in society. It was a joyous revolt full of humor, determination and compromise. It culminated in a strike that's now being remembered in the new documentary, the Day Iceland Stood Still. Almost all the women in Iceland are on strike today. It's National Women's Day there, and the women are refusing to work in even their own homes.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

If women don't work, everything collapses.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We are going to show them that we can stop this society. The man thought it was ridiculous.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

Oh, you are so silly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Goodbye.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

The beds were not made, dishes not washed. The telephone system went dead. Theaters did not open. Most of the schools were closed.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

Well, it didn't come to blows, but.

[Antonia Mortensen]

We got very harsh words, mostly from men.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's an amazing and uplifting story as I heard from director Pamela Hogan and Iceland's second female president, President Hadla Thomas Doltier. Welcome to both of you to our program. This is an amazing film. Pamela Hogan and Hartla Thomas Doltier, I want to ask you, as president of ICELAND, you were 7 years old when the actual day off, so to speak, happened October 24, 50 years ago. What do you remember from that day?

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

I remember it vividly because it was my mom's birthday. And this day, they were not baking and cleaning, she and her sisters, as on every other day, and they were on a strike, and they were having. Having fun while doing it. And when I asked my mom and her sisters why they were on a strike, they told me very plainly that they wanted to show that they matter. And I think that was maybe the beginning of me thinking that one day I might want to matter, too. And I think throughout decades of doing different things, I've learned that that's ultimately what most of us want to do. To matter, to be seen, valued and heard in a world that should allow all of us to contribute.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me just play one of the clips that you have sent us. And this is, as you said, madam President, you wanted to be something and somebody in your country. And this is about two of those women who tell us what they wanted to be. I was asked, what are you going to do when you grow up? And I said, I want to be.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

A captain of a ship.

[Christiane Amanpour]

They said very sweetly to me, no, no, dearest, you cannot, because you are a girl. From the time I was 12, I said that I wanted to be a lawyer. Everybody said, oh, no, you will be married before you are 18. I mean, it is extraordinary. Now, of course, you know, madam President, that the first lady who wanted to be a ship captain ended up becoming the first female president of Iceland. And the second one was the first woman to be appointed to the Supreme Court. Pamela, some of the stories almost seem incredible. What do you think about Iceland? Or do you think it's everywhere, that this was what women, and we're talking only 50 years ago, where they were just cooking and cleaning.

[Pamela Hogan]

Isn't it incredible that it's only 50 years ago? Also, women's names, if they were married, the name couldn't be on the doorbell and their name couldn't be in the phone book. And jobs were advertised for men or for women. And of course, the women's jobs were paid less and were lower levels. So I think that's one of the reasons we felt it was so important to capture these women's memories now, because I think in generations to come, no one would believe that life was like that for a woman. And I think also one of the secrets of the women's drive to really make the day off something big was they were. The women's movement in the 1970s in Iceland was feeling a little bit behind Scandinavia and maybe the United States. So they really wanted to do something big to make a statement. And I'd say they succeeded.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Madam President, the whole idea of the day, the 24th of October, was going to be a general strike by women. You're going to basically stop work in all the. All the parts of industry that you had menial jobs and were played less for the jobs you were doing than the men were. But then it turned into a day off because certain, you know, members of the female community didn't like the idea of a strike. Tell me about that. It's funny, it broke down traditional political lines.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

Yeah, it's very interesting that some of the perhaps more radical women wanted to call it a strike and some of the more what you might say, conservative women were more comfortable with calling it a day off. And women somehow found a way before social media, before the Internet, to organize a strike or a day off and find a bridge between those words so everybody could participate. And 90% of the women participated and did no work that day. And I think it's quite an achievement at a time where we didn't have the tools that we have today to mobilize. But what I was more impressed with already at the age of seven and still am today, is exactly what you mentioned, that they did it with such solidarity, even if they had to call it different names. They did it with such courage and such joy. This was really a fun day. They were singing and they were chanting and making signs and it was a fun day.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What do you think this meant for boys in Iceland? Because now all we hear about is boys around the world feeling alienated by the progress women have made, even though women still are not paid parity by any means.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

We need to understand that closing the gender gap isn't a woman's issue. It's really about economic and social progress. It's really about building a more sustainable and a peaceful world. So I think the next phase, and I hope the next phase for us in Iceland will be about bringing boys and men to the table even more actively. And it's still a fact in the world we live today that over 90% of all positions, be it head of states or CEOs or chairmans of boards, they're still men. So even if women have made great progress, and in Iceland, we certainly have, we have not closed the gender gap anywhere in the world. And we are very far from a gender balance in leadership the world over. And I'm absolutely certain that the key to getting there, and this is something our first democratically female president, Madam Viltius, often said, it will be because women decide to show up in leadership and work in allyship with men to really bring about a more sustainable and peaceful world. Honestly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, it's an amazing film. I really encourage everybody to see it. Hatla Thomas Doltier, president of Iceland, and Pamela Hogan, director of the Day Iceland Stood still, thank you both very much indeed for being with us.

[Hatla Thomas Doltier]

Thank you, Christian.

[Pamela Hogan]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Next up, the Israeli and Palestinian filmmakers behind the Oscar winning documentary no Other Land on the fight to get their film seen in the United States and rising settler violence in the occupied West Bank. And later in the program, former NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg tells me how the alliance could have fallen apart on his watch this week on the Assignment with me, Adie Cornish.

[Yuval Abraham]

You know, I call myself a democratic socialist in many ways.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Inspired by the words of Dr. King Zahran. Mamdani's major primary win this summer turned many eyes to the concrete jungle where Mamdani's hoping dreams are made of.

[Yuval Abraham]

There has to be a better distribution of wealth for all of God's children in this country.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Is it a fluke or is it a movement? And how is he playing with mainstream Democrats? Listen to the Assignment with Me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app. Welcome back to the program. While the world holds its breath to see if the Gaza ceases fire, holds and even turns into lasting peace. Over in the occupied west bank, settler violence is on the rise. So far this year, more than 3,000 Palestinians have been injured in attacks by settlers or Israeli forces, according to the un that includes Basel Adra, whose community of Masafa Yatta has come under repeated attack. Basil co directed the acclaimed documentary no Other Land about his hometown along with the Israeli journalist Yuval Abraham. It won the Oscar this year for best documentary. But until this week, it was almost impossible to watch in the United States. They had no distribution deal. I spoke to them both from Mazafayata. Welcome both to the program. Can I just start by reflecting on where you actually are? You're sitting right in your village there and it looks, it looks like an amazing sight. But what has been going on over the last several days and weeks there?

[Basil Adra]

Well, yeah, I'm in my village with Yuval. It's called Tuani Village. It's one of the 20 small communities here in the South Hebron area called Masafirata Town. What have been going on for the last three weeks and months? Actually very crazy settlers not stopping creating illegal outpost today. Actually they just stole one of the caves belong to one of the families not far from here and they started a new illegal outpost. Israeli occupation forces joined them and kick away the families and the neighbors that gathered there try to protest against these illegal outposts. At least nine illegal Israeli outposts have been built in Mustafa Ariatta just in the last two years. On the other hand, Israeli army continue to destroy Palestinians homes, water wells and other constructions.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yuval, you're there with Basa and you both are wearing exactly the same shirt and I believe it refers to one of your colleagues who has been killed. Tell me about the T shirts.

[Yuval Abraham]

Yeah, so this is our dear friend and our colleague Gauda Hadalin, who is a resident of one of the villages right next to us and he was really killed in cold blood. He was murdered by an Israeli settler who was invading his village. He was documented as he was shooting him from close range. Awda was filming actually the last moments of his life. And as almost always in these cases, the settler today is not only free in on Levi, but he is actually always coming again to the village where there is now another, as Basil said, illegal outpost that is being built there.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yuval, you are obviously an Israeli journalist for the online magazine 972. What is it like for you? And do you ever try as an Israeli to ask them what they're doing to. I'm sure you do, to try to intervene. How do they treat you as a fellow Israeli?

[Basil Adra]

Yeah.

[Yuval Abraham]

So, you know, much of our work and of course, our film is based on the realization that Israelis and Palestinians, Basel and myself, are living under a system which privileges Jewish Israelis in every way. And there is a group of Israelis and international activists who try to leverage that privilege to come to places like this, to Masafirata and other areas now in the west bank, especially in the olive harvest season, where the attacks are, you know, happening on a daily basis, these pogroms. And yes, to try to do protective presence, to try to. To document, to try to be first in line so that, you know, to somehow have some pushback against what the settlers and the army are doing. I feel like the international community, by not taking action, is weakening people like us, people from the Israeli and Palestinian human rights community. And we really need this because things are really severe on the ground right now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When you say the international community and the message, something good has happened in that you have now found how to distribute no other land in the United States. Basil, tell me, what is the situation now?

[Basil Adra]

So, unfortunately, you know, major distributors in the US did not want to pick Northern Land and to show it in the US I think they're politically trying to block us from reaching the American audience. So now, finally, we decide to release the documentary after two years of releasing it, after six months of winning the Oscars. So just we're releasing it by our own, with other, like, activists who's helping us with social media, using our accounts, and we try to push it by ourselves, basically, and with. With the social media colleagues and friends who's in solidarity with. With the senior cause who supporting and supporting Northern Land.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you agree that it's a deliberate attempt so far by the distributors in the US Just not to get that message out?

[Yuval Abraham]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I think. I think it is. I mean, I mean, we've been in touch with several big streamers. You know, you can imagine the names. And we were always told, wait, like, you know, if you get nominated for the Oscar, we will take the film. And we were nominated. Nothing happened. If you win, we will take the film. We won. And nothing happened. And yes, we did hear that. It's political considerations. Like, they. I don't know why they don't want to show a film which is critical of Israel's military occupation, but as an Israeli, I had to tell them, we need to be critical of this. It cannot go on. And people need to see the reality on the ground. They need to see the truth so that it Changes. And that's what we want.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I want to ask you both first, Yuval, what hope do you have for the Gaza ceasefire? And as bad as it is where you are, it is just flattened in Gaza. I mean the reports of people coming back to nothing is quite dramatic.

[Yuval Abraham]

Yeah, you're right, it is flattened. And I think it's not flattened by coincidence. I mean, as someone who has spoken to many Israeli soldiers who've actually flattened homes in Gaza, it's clear that this is intentional. It was done house after house, city after city. Rafah is gone, Khan Yunis is largely gone. Entire areas are gone. And that's why I think Netanyahu, the government, I mean, they view this as some sort of accomplishment from the same perspective that is going on here, that by making the life there miserable, people will leave, it'll be a form of ethnic cleansing and I think they won't quickly give up on that horrific dream.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And finally, Basil, your final thought and do you have any hope that the ceasefire will hold?

[Basil Adra]

I hope that the ceasefire will hold. And will these massacres that we have been watching like on our phones and TV channels for the last two years and I want to, my words want to send them to the people who were protesting in the street, to Sumud Flotilla, all these actions, like the boycott actions to continue because we need them now more than ever to hold this ceasefire, but also to end this apartheid and brutal occupation. Because our ethnic cleansing here in Masafiyat and all over across the west bank is not stopping. It's going on in daily basis and nobody is talking about it, not even the American government. They're talking about the ceasefire which is like good that we have ceasefire in Gaza, but here in the west bank nobody talks about what's going on on daily basis. So we need like the people who are protesting in the street, politicians to do more, to have political solutions for the future.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, Basiladre Yuval Abraham, thank you so much indeed both of you for being with us.

[Basil Adra]

Thank you.

[Yuval Abraham]

Thank you, Christian.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Coming up, fighting fit at the age of 92. We have a report on the Italian woman whose record breaking speed could unlock the secrets of how our bodies work. Welcome back. Now for a little exercise break with a running phenom. A woman who's broken multiple records, won 12 world titles and is still going at the age of 92. Italian elite sprinter Emma Matzenga refuses to let age slow her down. Training twice a week, all year round, CNN's Antonia Mortensen traveled to Padua, Italy to get the secrets of her longevity.

[Antonia Mortensen]

Emma Mazenga is no ordinary 92 year old. She's an Italian elite sprinter who has broken multiple world records. Born in 1933, Emma made headlines when she broke the indoor 200 meter world record in her age group in 2024. With a time of 54, 47. She's a real testament that it's never too late to start again. Emma stopped training after college where she ran track. She became a high school teacher, got married, started a family, and then at the age of 53 after a 25 year hiatus, dusted off her running shoes. The nanogenarian's uniqueness attracted the attention of a team of Italian and American scientists and she's now part of an ongoing international study trying to understand how someone her age can not only run, but so fast. So far, they found that Mzenga's cardiorespiratory fitness is similar to that of someone in their 50s. And her muscles mitochondria function is as healthy as a 20 year old's. Antonio Mortensen, CNN, Padova.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Up next, we look back at the titanic struggle facing Europe and the United States over Russia's war in Ukraine with a man who was truly at the center of it all. Yen Stalking tells me about the hard lessons he Learned during his 10 years as head of NATO.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

If the US President had left a NATO summit and declared that he was no longer willing to defend NATO allies, then NATO would have ceased to exist.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome back to the program. European leaders met here in England this week to push for a just and lasting peace in Ukraine. And President Trump, for the first time in his second administration, has imposed tough sanctions on major Russian oil companies. Well, according to my next guest, this all could have been avoided, but the road here was paved with missed opportunities. Former NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg led the alliance from 2014 to 2024, grappling with Russia since it first annexed Crimea and with President Trump's threats to pull out of NATO in his first term. Now Stoltenberg has written all about it in On My Watch and he took me behind the scenes when we met in London. Jens Stoltenberg, welcome to the program.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

In your book you write more than ever. During the war, I felt a sense of inadequacy. Ukraine was in the midst of a life and death battle for its existence as a sovereign nation and we hadn't managed to give them the help they needed. Had we provided more support earlier on, many Ukrainian lives could have been saved.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

Yes, and I still believe that's a correct assessment. And of course nobody knows, but I believe that if we had delivered substantial military support to Ukraine from 2014, then at least we would have been able to help Ukrainians to control much more territory today after full scale invasion in 22. But maybe even we could have prevented the full scale election.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So just around the beginning of the full scale invasion, are you able to say now whether you did you encourage leaders to provide more of these long range important weapons at the time, or did you not think that was your role?

[Jens Stoltenberg]

Yes, I did. But if I try in the book to also be honest about my own mistakes, and I realized today in the hindsight that I could have done even more to be even stronger in trying to convince allies to provide more military support to Ukraine in the years running up to the full scale invasion.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to ask you about some character studies you've done. Actually, I find it really interesting. So at one point, and I think you said this publicly, you decided when you met President Zelenskyy again, that he was one of the best leaders of our time. Just give me why you think that.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

When I met him first in 2019, I liked him, but I didn't regard him as a big political leader. A strong political leader he turned out to be. Extremely strong political leader with personal courage and also the skills to inspire a whole nation and a whole world to support him. And it's hard to imagine any political leader that could have done anything similar for his country as President Zelenskyy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You call Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov a unique combination of an elegant diplomat and a bully. And you also write that he insulted you at one point in a meeting. Why am I even sitting here? He said, you have no opinions of your own, Stoltenberg. You say only what your bosses permit you to say. How shocking was that?

[Jens Stoltenberg]

It was not very shocking because that had been more or less his style for a long time. But this particular meeting was a bit worse than the others. But on the other hand, I continue to believe that at some stage we need to talk to Russians. It's possible to talk to the Russians, even if they are rude in the way they are in some of those.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Conversations and not constructive. I mean, I don't understand how you keep talking to them. You say, you know, we should talk, as you say, Even though his manner was rough and occasionally unpleasant, this time there was nothing, absolutely nothing constructive. No matter what topic we switched to. I could hardly complete a sentence before he butted in. Your book is full of very fun anecdotes. About behind the scenes, that one of the most important moments was the NATO summit in Brussels in 2018. You write, this might be the meeting at which NATO is ruined. I thought, and it's happening on my watch. The alliance had managed to operate successfully for 70 years, but not after 12th of July 2018, which was this, this summit. So this was because Trump said, unless you put up this amount of money, I'm walking out. Just tell us how chilled you felt. What was everybody feeling at that summit right now? A lot has been written about it, but it's interesting to hear.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

No, as we were extremely concerned because we actually feared that President Trump was going to leave the whole meeting. And they had packed their luggages and ready to leave. And it stated that if. If you don't promise to pay more now, immediately, I will leave, and you need NATO more than I do. We had a kind of emergency meeting.

[Christiane Amanpour]

With him in the room, still with.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

Him in the room and most of the other people left. So it was only the heads of state and government. And we had a very open discussion. And he pinpointed each and every ally and read out exactly how much they paid. And most of them paid, of course, far too little. And of course, if the US President had left a NATO summit and declared that he was no longer willing to defend NATO allies, then NATO would have ceased to exist. On paper, we will still have been an alliance, but in reality, it wouldn't longer deliver deterrence, because deterrence is in the mind of an adversary, and if the biggest allies say will not defend, then the whole deterrence disappears. So after that meeting, he actually went out and said that he was, I think it was 110% in favor of NATO. So it ended well. And I remember you were there.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. Yeah, well, I was. I did an interview with you afterwards, and you say it ended well, but there was a confusion. And I tried to get through the confusion. Trump was saying one thing, President Macron, Chancellor Merkel was saying another thing about this extra spend. And I tried to get you to give it to me straight. So you write now in your book. I couldn't, of course, confirm the facts. There was no new agreement, no new pledges beyond the 2014 resolution. But I couldn't simply come out and say that, because then I would be contradicting Trump and risk him withdrawing support. And so we went on several confusing rounds. Amanpour asked clear and precise question questions and receive vague and unclear answers from you. As you know, that's been a big complaint of mine through your 10 years of NATO. But now you're going to be frank. What were you thinking when I was trying to get the truth out of you? Obfuscating.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

But I thought that actually you saw the contradiction in the messages.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, but you still didn't clarify.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

No, but the reason is that when you're Secretary General, NATO, there is one main responsibility and that is to keep this alliance together. And then I cannot say that Trump is wrong, that there's no new agreement, and I cannot say that the others are right either. So I need to find a way to code paper over those disagreements. And I felt a bit strange or stupid, but that was my task, to keep these alliance together. And we succeed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Jens Stoltenberg, thank you very much indeed.

[Jens Stoltenberg]

Thanks, Matra.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the book on my watch is out now. Coming up, as the might of the US military bears down on Venezuela, we look back at my 2014 conversation with President Nicolas Maduro and his fears even then of U.S. aggression. Welcome back. Warships, spy planes, fighter jets, bombers, drones and the US Marines, all US assets the Trump administration has now deployed to waters around Venezuela. Relations between Trump and President Nicolas Maduro are at an all time low as the White House expands its operations against drug trafficking groups. Experts warn Trump may also have another ambition, piling the pressure on Venezuela's leader and trying to force him out. From my archive, my conversation with Maduro Back in 2014, when I spoke to him in person in Caracas, I pushed him on his nation's failing democracy and I asked him how he saw US ambitions in the future. Do you really believe they want to reconquer Latin America?

[Pamela Hogan]

Of course.

[Nicolas Maduro]

Of course I do. They want first of all the economic control. They have the political control through political political classes and elites that govern some of our countries. And they want to have the military control because regrettably, the US elite, they have a project try to establish the hegemony and the control. And in the world of today, it is impossible.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you worry that this democratic legitimacy that you claim will be forfeited because so much power has been accumulated in the presidency? In the executive, the judiciary doesn't have much say, the legislative doesn't have much opposition representation, nothing meaningful. The independent press is censored. All of this people say is actually moving towards a dictatorship, not towards a more evolved democracy. Are you concerned about forfeiting your democratic legitimacy?

[Nicolas Maduro]

What concerns my concern is to strengthen democracy. These accusations have been made for 15 years and they crashed against the reality of it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Tell me.

[Nicolas Maduro]

The country is the world with 19.

[Basil Adra]

Elections in the 15 years.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But it's not just elections, sir. You know that you won your election, but it's not just elections elections. I'm talking about what happens in governance of the accumulation of power after election.

[Nicolas Maduro]

It is important to have elections in.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Democracy, but it's also important what to do after this.

[Nicolas Maduro]

We have a democracy strengthened at all levels. You know why democracy is so strong in Venezuela? Because none of those were the leaders of these powers. We are not. We do not belong to international companies or weapon company or an oil company. I'm not a businessman who came here to enrich a group, economic group or another group, another economic group. I am an independent president.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, I spoke to the main opposition leader who actually is considered to have won the latest elections, Maria Corinna Machado. And she who won the Nobel Peace Prize, supports President Trump's attempt at regime change. She said she would welcome it. When we come back, an epic literary adventure comes to an end after three decades. Years ago, author Philip Pullman gave me a preview of the crucial characters in his final blockbuster fantasy saga. And finally this week, an epic literary journey has ended. After 30 years, the beloved children's author Philip Pullman has completed the story of his young heroine, Lyra Belacqua, in the Rose Field, released this week, the final novel in his Book of Dust series. And it's the end of a literary journey that began in 1995 with His Dark Materials, a book that took young readers across universes to heaven and back. In 2017, I spoke to Pullman as he embarked on his new Lyra trilogy. And he told me then how one key character in these final novels took special shape because it was inspired by his support for the victims of London's tragic Grenfell fire that same year.

[Philip Pullman]

I thought that I must join in. I must do what I can do to help. So they auctioned the rights to naming a character in the book. I was writing now, and I'm very pleased to find that the auction was won by someone who would like me to name a character, Noor Huda Al Wahabi, who's one of the girls who very tragically died in that fire. I'm very happy to do that. And Noor Huda will have a part in my in the second part of the Book of Dust, which I'm writing now.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It really is a remarkable gift for all of her family. She will live on forever in the covers of your book.

[Philip Pullman]

I hope her relatives and friends like the character that I'm writing about, of course, won't be the real one whom I never knew, but I hope they feel that I do justice to her name.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What made you do the new book? Why now?

[Philip Pullman]

Well, it's been quite a long time in the writing. I began writing this one 10 or so years ago, and it's taken me quite a long time to get this far with it. When I finished His Dark Materials with the book called the Amber Spyglass, I had a sense that that wasn't the last I was going to know about Lyra, the heroine. I felt that she was going to have some more adventures, but I didn't know what they were or where they would take her. And when I started writing about her in this book, well, she's only six months old in this story, so she's not able to do very much or do anything at all of her own volition. But she's certainly the center of all, all the activity that's going on. I was pleased to see her at that age because this book sets in place the beginning of a story which is going to come into full fruition 20 years later.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Christine. This is Tiana Manpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. What is the truth about nicotine? How does it affect our children's health? And why does it seem like every time we get a handle on one product, a new one comes along? Tobacco companies have been on a campaign for 50 plus years to try to minimize nicotine. Dr. Pamela Ling. She's going to help us figure out why tobacco and nicotine are such moving targets for public health. Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now. Wherever you get your podcasts.