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A
Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Israel and Lebanon break the diplomatic ice after 40 years, what this could mean for the humanitarian crisis on the ground and the IDF's still expanding operation into Lebanon. I speak to MSF official Christopher Stokes and military analyst Amos Harel. Also ahead, we have no food or water, with no clothes and barefoot, and we came fleeing on foot. As Sudan enters its fourth year of bloodshed and loss, I speak with philanthropist Mo Ibrahim who warns the fallout could spill beyond the country's borders.
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B
Plus, men have a fear of sort of admitting vulnerability because vulnerability can be misconstrued somehow as weakness.
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A
Who needs friends? How a cross country road trip rekindled old friendships. Actor Andrew McCarthy tells Hari Sreenivasan why men need closer connections with each other. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianica Rodrigo, New York sitting in for Christian John Amanpour. Does diplomacy still stand a chance? Israel and Lebanon are meeting in Washington in their highest level direct talks in more than 40 years. The historic negotiations are part of a U. S. Brokered attempt to end Israel's war with Hezbollah. But the gaps of disagreement are wide and progress could be dashed by the Iran backed militia which says that it won't abide by any agreement reached in the meeting. Yet as momentous as these talks may be on the ground, the reality is far less hopeful for civil although Israel has scaled back attacks on Lebanon this week, dozens of people have been reported killed in the past day. And Lebanese communities are still reeling from the biggest Israeli assault of the conflict last Wednesday, which killed 300 people and wounded more than 1,000. That is according to Lebanon's Health ministry. And for the Lebanese people grappling with loss and displacement, there's little hope that negotiations will herald change.
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C
As for the negotiations, as usual, I'm not very hopeful, but God willing, this
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B
will lead to a lasting solution. We hope that our prime minister will pay close attention to the negotiations and make sure they're successful so all these
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C
people can go home.
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B
The current situation is hopeless.
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D
There's no, we don't see any glimmer of hope for the future.
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A
Healthcare workers have also been victims in this war. Since early March, dozens of medics have been killed in Israeli strikes. MSF volunteers have been working across three major hospitals in Lebanon and their emergency coordinator Christopher Stokes joins me now live from Beirut. Christopher, welcome to the program. As we noted, you are there live on the ground in Beirut. Beyond the headlines, what is the immediate reality facing civilians there and your colleagues who are Working effortlessly to help them.
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E
Well, the immediate reality for all the Lebanese is a life of fear and uncertainty. For the moment, I'm in central Beirut. Yesterday I was in the south of the country and overhead you regularly hear drones that are aiming to acquire targets for further strikes. Last Wednesday we had a massive attack with over 100. The day after the ceasefire, actually over 100 strikes in 10 minutes. And so there was something like 300 dead and well over a thousand casualties just in that moment. And then you have massive displacement. So the city is teeming with people who've been expelled from the south of the country.
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A
And as we've noted, your team is working with a mass influx of casualties, including a child who recently lost six family members. The WHO has warned that critical supplies are running out. Healthcare workers are pushed to exhaustion there as they're working around the clock to help these civilians. Are hospitals equipped at this point to provide the aid that is needed?
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E
Yeah, first off, the Lebanese health professionals are really doing an amazing job. They've been at this for over 40 days. And you have to imagine in many of these hospitals perhaps they'd receive one or two heavy casualties multi, multi polytraumas a week, and now they're getting 10, 15 a day. Just today, yesterday there were 35 dead and 159 wounded across the country as a result of Israeli airstrikes. This is really happening every single day. The staff are exhausted. Sometimes their hospitals are damaged as well. So when they're not treating patients, they're sweeping broken glass or trying to repair the damaged infrastructure because of strikes that happen quite close to their hospitals. And many of the Lebanese professionals are actually doctors and nurses are sleeping in the hospitals. They live on the ground floor because it's so dangerous to move to come to and from the hospital. So everything is a struggle and yet
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A
it's not a new struggle. Lebanon is very familiar, unfortunately, to this type of fighting and destruction between Hezbollah and Israel. There in this part of the country in particular, we've been covering it just over the past years, but you could go back decades and this conflict was still, was still as deadly as it is today. And that is my question to you. In terms of the destruction, are you seeing something different now than what you've seen most recently? Let's go back a year before the ceasefire was in place.
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E
I think we're seeing a lot of civilian casualties and we're seeing a lot of civilian casualties across the board. Only the other day we treated two young women in the south of the country who'd been injured in an airstrike. One of them had bilateral lower limb amputations and came in with her foot lying on the stretcher. Her foot was sectioned and her friend came in with an unstable femoral fracture with and her thigh was slowly filling up with fluid. And so we're seeing really very heavy civilian casualties, basically because the weapons being used by Israel are landing in very dense urban areas where you have a high concentration of population. So that is one specific problem that is really, it's more than a problem. It's absolutely unacceptable. But the loss of civilian life is quite heavy. And Lebanon saw something similar in 24, also in 2006. But it isn't always like this. And certainly this war is lasting a long time now.
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A
No doubt. And of course, Israel will say that they are targeting Hezbollah fighters who have immersed themselves among the population. Just give us a sense of the reality, though. When these warnings do come in from the IDF to evacuate, how feasible is that? Where do civilians go?
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E
Well, one of the problems is these warnings. So the attacks, for example, last week came without any warning here in Beirut. I was actually sitting here in the Doctors Without Borders office, and we could see the strikes. So some of the strikes happen without warning. So if you're, whatever the target that Israel is aiming at, if you're walking in the street or if you happen to be in that building and the building collapses on you, your chances of survival are quite slim. So that's one problem. Then you have these huge areas that have been ordered that are under orders from Israel to be evacuated, including everything that's south of the Litany River. We're talking about a half a million people. And so you have 1.1 to 1.2 million displaced, creating huge pressure. And a lot of these people don't know if they'll ever go back home because they've been told, including by Israeli ministers, that their villages are going to be turned into rubble like Gaza was. So that's really weighing on people beyond their living conditions is where will they be? Where will they be living in the coming months and years?
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A
Yeah, and I'm going to discuss that with my next guest, Israel Defense Minister Katz, stating that Israel will destroy homes in the Lebanese border villages, explicitly citing the destruction that we saw in the Gaza in Gaza you mentioned last Wednesday. And that was, I believe, the largest attack that Israel had conducted since Hezbollah launched its war with Israel this past month, following Israel and the United States launching its attacks on Iran. Just tell us about that day. I'm curious to hear, given Your proximity. This was I believe 100 strikes in just 10min. Its time. What did that feel like? What did that sound and look like?
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E
Well, it created a huge sense of shock and worry. So people are used to a strike here and there in Beirut, which is already bad enough, you can imagine. And then at that moment, totally unannounced, over 100 strikes. So you could hear the city being hit. There was smoke on many different areas and everybody just grabbed their phones and tried to see if their family members were were safe. And so everybody here in the office, my Lebanese colleagues, jumped on their phone. People were very emotional and very worried. The hospitals were overloaded. They did the best they could. Many of the bodies were hard to identify. Also in some cases you had entire families killed so you didn't have any survivors to identify the body. And we had tragic cases in Sur, in the south. We had a young 7 year old girl who came into the hospital injured and crying. All her family members, we later discovered seven of her family members were buried under the rubble. And actually we've had people on that day who'd seen the ceasefire during the night and they thought the war would be over. And ordinary Lebanese civilians started returning. Some went home and we had several cases of families who were injured or wounded or killed actually going home to the south thinking the war was over, that they were met with continued destruction.
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A
I want to play sound from one Lebanese man grappling with the war who I think speaks for a large portion of the population that is angry, angry at obviously Israel for the strikes, angry at Hezbollah for dragging Leban on once again into a war that Lebanese people and civilians don't want. Listen to what he said.
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F
There's something unbelievable destruction, very massive destruction. I mean even someone who isn't afraid would become afraid. I feel fear and anxiety. Where is this country headed? What are we going to do with our lives? Where are we staying and where are we going? No one knows what's going to happen. We have children, livelihoods, property. People want to live. Enough. We've had enough war.
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A
Christopher, is that what you're hearing from those around you, those civilians?
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E
There's certainly war weariness and there's a lot of uncertainty and fear about what tomorrow holds. And one of their main concerns again is will they be able to go home. Especially for the displaced here, the hundreds of thousands who are piling up in Beirut in very unsanitary, terrible conditions. They have nothing to do. They're stuck in collective buildings, in schools, in tents on the beach, which is also a Concern because when, if there's an airstrike, if you're in a tent, then there's no wall to protect you. And really one of they're hoping for peace certainly, but they're really hoping to be able to go back home. And the doctors working in the hospitals are also hoping to go back home because many of them now live in these hospitals, as I mentioned, and barely see their families because it's so dangerous to move in and out of hospitals, especially in the south.
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A
What exactly is needed in terms of aid? We know the WHO is warning of escalating food insecurities. We're seeing prices continue to rise for a number of reasons. Obviously we've got conflicts that's impacting the price of commodities and energy and gas and oil. We've seen a spike in vegetable prices of over 20%, bread, 17%. All of this since March, early March, March 2, just a few weeks ago. How is that impacting getting those supplies to you?
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E
Well, I can speak to the medical, as a medical organization, what we're seeing on the ground, the general medical situation and for example, I was in Ghana yesterday, which is not far from the Israeli frontline as they're moving forward and the doctors there, basically there's no electricity so they're running their hospital. They're small emergency departments. They've had to close most of the hospital on a generator. Fuel prices have gone through the roof, so we're going to help them there. It's hard for them even to get oxygen tanks down there because oxygen tanks also present certain risks. So the problems are really piling on and multiplying. And I would say when it comes to the, the, the, the medical system, they're under huge stress. Lebanon has tried to have a generous approach and say that the displaced and the wounded would get free care, which is good. But these are already in a really bad economic situation with all the displaced, etc. So healthcare is very much both in danger also from the direct strikes. Lots of ambulances have been hit. So it's really quite a catastrophic situation, particularly in the south, I would say of the country.
- [15:16]
A
Christopher Stokes, thank you so much for joining the show and painting this stark reality that so many there are now facing. We appreciate the time. Well, as diplomacy takes center stage in Washington, the IDF is pushing further into southern Lebanon. Israel says that it expects to take full control of Benjamin after days engaging in direct fighting with Hezbollah. Israel has previously said that it would establish a so called security buffer zone in southern Lebanon until the conflict ends. For more on what Israel's ultimate strategy here is. I'm joined by Amos Kharel from Israel. He's a military analyst for Haaretz and a regular on this program. Amos, it's good to have you back. I know you were able to listen to part of that conversation in terms of the destruction there in southern Lebanon and its impact on civilians. And I know that for those that live in northern Israel, their own stability and safety in being able to return to their homes is paramount for Israel and their security too. My question to you is when you hear about the level in, as you report about the level of destruction, the strikes that we just saw last week, 100 strikes in just 10 minutes time. Israel continuing to move inland here, why is this approach by the idf? Why do they think this will be different than past wars with Hezbollah?
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D
It's not only the approach of the idf, it's the general mood in the country. I would say Israelis after October 7th treat security threats differently. And this is what Prime Minister Netanyahu is counting on. The whole attitude is that Israel is proactive, that Israel takes charge of events and it initiates attacks in order to prevent threats from becoming more dangerous. The IDF itself, it's under a lot of pressure from the population in the north. You may recall that Israel won the previous round in late 24. There was a ceasefire achieved after quite a victory over Hezbollah. So the residents were promised that things would slow down, calm down, and that they could get back to their homes once the second war with Iran began, Once Hezbollah resumed launching rockets, the reality proved quite different. And then there's also the pressure from the politicians. Netanyahu's government is, as I said, quite hawkish about almost everything. And the demand from the generals is to make this thing disappear. The army knows one solution, which is apply more pressure, apply more military power in order to solve things. Unfortunately, it isn't working too well. On the one hand, there's a lot of suffering. Your previous interview has mentioned that. There's also quite a lot of suffering on the Israeli side. And on the other hand, Hezbollah is not going to surrender anytime soon. We see Hezbollah willing to, to fight, although it lost hundreds, if not a thousand or more of its fighters since the war was resumed.
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A
Right. This was supposed to be a weekend Hezbollah. As you noted, Israel came out the victor of the last war between these two sides, and yet Hezbollah is still capable of firing rockets into northern Israel. Amos, this brings me to these historic talks taking place now in Washington D.C. the first high level direct between Israeli officials and Lebanese officials in some 40 years. Is there an opportunity here for real diplomacy?
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D
It's historic, it's significant. I'm not sure that I'd be too hopeful about the results. Again, we both remember that in 82, 83, a peace agreement was signed between Israel and the government. The Lebanese government at that time, it was never implemented. What we have now, of course, is on the one hand, a general willingness on behalf of the government and the military in Beirut to restrain Hezbollah and perhaps help dismantle some more of its weapons. But yet Hezbollah remains quite a force politically in Lebanon, and it's quite clear that the army and the government are afraid of Hezbollah. So Israel is doing this because this is what President Trump asked Prime Minister Netanyahu to do. There are not too many hopes that this would end with a diplomatic solution, but a lot of this depends on what goes on in the Gulf. If a ceasefire, a long term ceasefire, is reached in the Gulf, then we will see Israel restrained in Lebanon as well. Already, apparently, the President told the Prime Minister to stop bombings in Beirut and in the Baqa Valley in Lebanon. Most of the fighting now goes on in southern Lebanon. I think we see signs that this could end, I'm not sure, with a final diplomatic solution. But this could end if the war in Iran stops as well. But this is a proxy war. In the end, the focus is on the Gulf. And if there is a breakthrough, a diplomatic breakthrough there, then things might come down a bit in Lebanon as well.
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A
So are these direct negotiations, and I'm referencing both those in Washington and perhaps those that will be restarted in, in Pakistan, in Islamabad as soon as later this week. Are they being directed solely by Washington here? And I'm wondering what the implications are for Israel, given that they impact two wars that Israel is currently conducting, that with Hezbollah in Lebanon and that with Iran. Is Israel at the table, seriously or no?
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D
Not so much. I think what we see here now is diminishing Israeli influence over what happens. You're familiar, of course, with the New York Times story last week about Netanyahu influencing the Trump decision. They met in February 11th of this year at the White House, and it was evidently the Prime Minister who persuaded the President to go forward with the plan to attack Iran. There were also a lot of hopes about Israel and specifically Mossad, delivering more of an attempt of a regime change in Iran. As we know, this didn't work out so well, but at that time, Netanyahu was extremely influential over Trump decisions. I'm not sure that this is the situation right now. Israel by now is A sort of a subcontractor for the Americans regarding strikes in Iran. It fights its own war in Lebanon. But I think that most of the decisions will be taken in Washington, at the White House, and not so much at the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem.
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A
And we heard the Prime Minister just yesterday say that he speaks with J.D. vance. J.D. vance had been calling him and relaying every single update of these negotiations. I'm just wondering how much of that was posturing for his domestic audience at home versus really believing that both the United States and Israel's priorities are being addressed in these talks. The US apparently is offering a 20 year period of no enrichment and Iran came back with five years. But even getting there, it shows that negotiations are happening. Is Israel on board with some middle ground that they could potentially agree to?
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D
I'm sure he's getting the updates. Netanyahu talks to Vance, he talks constantly to President Trump and especially the people around him like Jared Kushner or Steve Whitaker. But on the other hand, I'm not so sure that the Israeli position is considered at this moment. It's quite evident from here a, that the Prime Minister wants the war to be resumed. This is all we all the leaks we're getting from Jerusalem are that the war should at one point continue and on the other hand that he's not making the decisions anymore, that it's about American interest interests first and foremost. We'll have to see how this evolves. But of course, Israel would like the attitude towards Iranian to be as hawkish as possible and would like the Americans to make strict demands of Iran regarding any kind of long term solution. Most specifically regarding the nuclear plan, but also about ballistic missiles and Netanyahu. You've mentioned posturing earlier. Netanyahu is having a very hard time bridging this gap because what he promised to the Israeli people is quite far from what he actually achieved the first day the war broke. On February 28. He briefed journalists that this is about regime change and this is about destruction of the two main threats from Iran, the nuclear project and the ballistic missile plan. Now, all of these things have not been achieved yet. What we have now is a ceasefire. Quite a lot of damage, of course, created in Iran. But this hasn't destroyed the Iranian regime and it hasn't defeated Iran, contrary to what Netanyahu promised Trump to do a few weeks before the war started.
- [24:39]
A
And that's starting to be reflected in polling as well. Nadav Eyal actually highlighted a brutal new INSS poll that showed only 31% of Israelis believe the Iranian regime was significantly harmed. And nearly 3/4, 3/4 expect to be back at war within a year's time. Trust in the government is sitting at 30%. AmosYou know, I don't have to tell you about what life has been like for Israelis the past month, the past three years, actually, constantly in and out of bomb shelters, constantly at war. Israel has long been described as being tactically strong, strategically weak. Do Israelis feel after three years of war that they are in a safer position right now? What is the mood like after October 7th with this new doctrine, as you noted, of being more proactive in targeting and striking potential attacks ahead of time? Do Israelis feel that they're safer?
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D
So the polls you've mentioned, the mistrust is quite clear. People do not trust the government, and people are having a hard time believing that the government is achieving what it claims it has achieved already. This hasn't been translated into political loss to Netanyahu. According to the polls, we are quite steady. The opposition is leading in the polls, but it doesn't seem to be a decisive victory. And of course, the elections are supposed to be held for the next Knesset in late October of this year. When we talk about strategic wins, then again, it's hard for the government right now to explain its position. What we hear from Netanyahu's mouthpieces, and as you know, he's very good at political campaigns and he's very good at operating political spin. But what we hear from them is that these are great times for Israel. Netanyahu is constantly mentioning that he created free security zones, one in Gaza, one in the Golan Heights on the Syrian side and one in Lebanon. He's actually, according to him, widening the borders of Israel for the first time since the Six Day War of 1967. And he's also announced that Israel is now not only a regional power, but quote, unquote, almost a world superpower. Now, does Netanyahu himself believe that? The people around him keep mentioning that, but I'm not so sure that the Israelis are convinced, especially as we go up and down those stairs to the bomb shelters constantly. It's hard to believe that we've won this as the war goes on, at least with Lebanon. And we still don't know, of course, what would happen with Iran.
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A
Yeah, perhaps he views Israel as a superpower, but you know how Israel is viewed by a number of other Western countries. They have consistently been criticizing how Israel has conducted itself. And I guess the biggest concern now is Israel's relationship going forward with the United States and Washington in particular. Amos Kharel, thank you so much. Always good to see you.
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D
Thank you, Bianna.
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A
And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy here at Terms of Service. We want to introduce our listeners to all kinds of voices working in and around the tech industry. I have Christian Janetsky, president of the FanDuel group, here with me.
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F
I was brought in to help bring regulation to the fantasy sports industry.
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B
The plan when I joined was to
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F
build a long fantasy sports company.
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B
It has always been paramount for us
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F
to build trust in our brand.
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A
We're going to talk about the history of the company, how their technology works, how they're addressing concerns about gambling addiction and their efforts to ensure users and fans gamble responsibly. Listen to CNN's Terms of Service wherever you get your podcasts. Right next to a still raging war with far less global attention. This week marks three years of brutal civil war in Sudan with staggering levels of bloodshed. At least 150,000 people have been killed and 33 million are in need of assistance there. With harrowing reports of sexual violence and the killing of children, hunger, displacement and death are now the daily reality in Sudan. In an article for the Financial Times, Sudanese entrepreneur and philanthropist Mo Ibrahim warns that what happens in Sudan will not stay in Sudan. He joins me now from Monaco. Mo Ibrahim, thank you so much for joining the program. As we've noted and covered, this war now so many years into it, the numbers are staggering. 14 million displaced, 4 million sheltering abroad. Beyond just those headlines, we like to begin by asking all of our guests, what is the current reality on the ground right now for civilians?
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C
The. For civilians? I mean, it is harrowing. The two fighting groups, rsf, Sudanese army and the RSF and the Suez army, control most of the country, but there is a lot of other militias which also control other parts. It's becoming a lawless land. Actually, the fragmentation of the country is a reality now. It's terrible. And food shortage, lack of health care, disease, etc. Sexual violence prevailing is a nightmare.
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A
A nightmare. And you depict that so thoughtfully and poignantly in your piece for the ft. And as you noted, what happens in Sudan will not stay in Sudan. With so many fragile neighbors there in the Horn of Africa, what are the immediate risks of regional of this spreading throughout the region?
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C
Yeah. Sudan shares borders with seven other countries. Most of these countries are already fragile countries. And the problem also is that some of these countries support one side or the other side logistics, arms, etc. And the situation in Sudan can undermine what is going on around us. Take for example, Eritrea and Egypt. Both are our neighbors, they support the army. Ethiopia, which has not really, is not really in good terms with Eritrea or Egypt, of course is pushed to support the rsf. Serbia also got borders with us. We can end up with a proxy war there between all those people. And there is also much danger beyond our own neighbors. If you just look at the map, you will see an incredible huge arc of lawless lands. Ungovernable spaces extend through the Sahel from the Atlantic to the Red Sea. And this is a huge problem not only for Africa, is also for Europe. Because this is like, as I said, like Afghanistan and Syria together as the doorstep of Europe. And this is a major problem for everybody.
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A
And we're looking at a map right now and you see the contagion that is quite possible and you see the fact that it is so near one of the other hotspots in the world, one of the hot wars going on right now, and that is the war in Iran. And the impact that this is having on global energy markets prices, on everything from oil, gas and commodities, fertilizer also being impacted. Just talk about how that then trickles into this conflict and making it that much more difficult to get humanitarian aid on the ground.
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C
Right. I mean, you have, Sudan has. Have a very long shore on the Red Sea. Red Sea now is acquiring a heightened strategic importance given what is happening in the Gulf. And it is appropriate because the safety of navigation and it will be threatened. But then you have also the migration threat. If you remember, 1 million refugees almost undermined the government of Chancellor Merkel in Germany and that was Syria. Now you have much more than that next door, really. And that can undermine many democratic rules in Europe. So you have the migration problem, you have the navigation, freedom of navigation problem and of course you have the humanitarian
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A
crisis and you have countries like uae.
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C
Sorry, go ahead.
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A
I was just going to say you have countries like uae, Iran, Turkey only fueling the problem. And you've called international mediation efforts half hearted. Why do you think that more isn't being done on a collective level to bring this brutal war, this genocide, to an end?
- [34:41]
C
Yeah. The problem is that a number of countries, neighbours and a little bit further are supporting one side or another, looking for some narrow strategic interests in the aftermath. If the side wins, the war is a very narrow and stupid approach. And what happens is the flow of arms. Who's feeding this war? It is that flow of arms, bullets. And you know logistics, etc. Grows and who's doing that? There's seven or eight countries. You have Iran, you have Turkey, you have the Emirates, you have Egypt. It's just so many people involved there and they supporting this side of that side. So we don't have a consensus and we need to get over that. We need to really stop all supply of weapons, drones, etc. To the combatants. Otherwise this war will continue raging on. And I hope that us can just pay some attention to what's going on there.
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A
Yeah. You say we welcome your affection, but not your bullets and drones. Your foundation's African Leaders Prize, awarded for exceptional democratic governance hasn't been given out for five years. Does that reflect sort of the broader crisis of democratic leadership in this moment?
- [36:18]
C
In a way it is because we have been witnessing some deterioration in the governance and in democracy. There is a democracy recession in Africa. We see different presidents now changing constitution, staying for third or fourth term, which have you seen people at 90 years old starting a sixth or seventh term, narrowing space. I mean, the space is shrinking for civil society. So Africa is not in a good place, unfortunately. So, yes, I've been unable to give the rise, but it is not our fault, really. It is some other people's fault.
- [37:02]
A
Well, your voice is so important now during this time of crisis, watching your country literally being torn apart. You continue to speak out and that is, that is so vital and we are grateful for your time. Thank you, Mo Ibrahim.
- [37:16]
C
Thank you. Thank you, Diane.
- [37:18]
A
And we'll be right back after the short. This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. I'm talking with Jessica Gross. What do you consider the manosphere? It is a loose collective of podcasters, streamers, social media personalities who tend to espouse conservative views on gender roles. And there's a broad range of people that, that you could categorize as part of the manosphere. I don't think any of them self
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B
identify that way, I was about to
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A
say, because there's some progressive dudes that I consider part of the manosphere because my definition is so poor. My definition is like, do you have a podcast? Listen to the Assignment with Me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app. Next. Who needs friends? That's the title and subject of Andrew Akins, Andrew McCarthy's new book exploring male loneliness in America. As a member of the infamous Brat pack of young actors from the 1980s, he's starred in iconic films such as Pretty in Pink, one of my favorites, and the coming of age melodrama St. Elmo's fire. Now he's taken a 10,000 mile road trip across 22 states to reconnect with old friends. And he tells Hari Srinivasan what he learned about human connection along the way.
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F
Bianna, thanks. Andrew McCarthy, thanks so much for joining us. You have a new book out called who Needs An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendships Across America. In the beginning of the book you say that this sort of started with maybe a snarky question from your older son who was basically asking you, you don't really have any friends, do you, dad? I mean it's powerful what kids can do to us.
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D
Power.
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F
But what did that trigger for you?
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B
Well, yeah, we were, we were sitting at the kitchen table, he was telling me a funny story about one of his friends and then he finished his story and looked up and just said exactly that. You don't really have any friends, do you, dad? And it didn't, I don't think he meant it too snarky. He was just speaking truth as far as he knew it, the way our kids do to us, you know. Yeah. Constantly keep us humble and, or humiliated. And it just got me thinking. It stayed with me. I said to him, I said, sam, again, you know, I do have friends, I just don't see them, but I know they're there and that's enough. And he kind of went, okay. And, but that comment stayed with me. And a couple days later I just said out loud to the empty kitchen, I said, you know what, it's not enough. I need to go see my friends. And I'm like many guys, I think, who when I was left home at 17, came to the city and had this sort of core group of guys who became my chosen family and you know, they largely became responsible for me who becoming who I've become and, and through life and jobs and families, whatever, they scattered across the country. And I hadn't seen any of them in years, some of them in decades. And so yeah, my son's sort of comment made me go, I need to see these dudes.
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F
So this launched a, what turned out to be a 22 state, 10,000 mile road trip that was kind of zigging and zagging. You write in the book when you were taking this tour, what had actually happened to my friendships? Were they still there as I claimed? Did I even want them or need them? Them? What did I get from them anyway? What did I have to offer them? How did friendship affect my place in the world? What did I value? What mattered? Those are all really big Questions? What did you find?
- [40:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, I. I have to say, I started. I drove 10,000 miles because I hate highway driving. I'm terrified, like on the highway. So I just drove back roads the entire country, which was an amazing thing to rediscover America like that again. But I also. What I found really interesting was I started talking to men as I went. I started talking to random men I would approach in gas stations or on the street or in hotel lobbies or something, and I started talking to them about their friendships. So besides just reconnecting with my old friends, I started talking to men of all walks, like cops and blues musicians and oil rig workers and all sorts of guys. And it was amazing because although all of them looked at me like I was insane, when I first kind of walked up to them and said, will you talk to me about your friends? You know, they kind of said, huh? But then not a single guy refused to talk to me. They were all. And invariably everybody pretty much said, I've never talked about this before. I never talk about this stuff. So it's fascinating to talk about. So I had amazing conversations with men who were very open to me all across the country. And, you know, I found a lot of loneliness, a lot of isolation. I also found a lot of deep sort of connection and fellowship between men. And it's a topic that we don't deal with. I guess the biggest thing I found is a topic that we just don't deal with very much to our own detriment.
- [42:06]
F
The juxtaposition throughout the book of how many men and some women all know this, that we don't deal with this well, in fact, they even point out, oh, my wife, my girlfriend, oh, she's got great friends. She's really connected. And you're just like, wait, what, what's the. What's the gap here? Why is that gap where. When we can see how healthy relationships are nurtured and formed and how people communicate. What were the reasons that you found that people. Men weren't.
- [42:32]
B
You're right. You say a lot of guys I met said, yeah, I'm my. My wife is my best friend, but I'm not hers a lot, right? And a lot of guys let their wives, you know, schedule all their social life. But I think guys, it comes down to, you know, they're cliches. But I think it's true that men have a fear of sort of admitting vulnerability, because vulnerability can be misconstrued somehow as weakness. And the one thing a man can't be in Our culture today is weak, right? And manhood has sort of evolved since sort of post World War II, John Wayne era. A man in America certainly has been become someone who's stoic, hard, pull your hat down, carry your own water, just shut up and get it done and bring it on, you know. And that's not always the way it used to be with friendship and with men in America. Back in the 19th century, you know, Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed were dear. There's lots of examples of men writing these profuse affectionate letters to each other. There's a lot of physical affection, you know, so the idea of friendship in America changed in men, changed somewhere in the last hundred years to a really sort of narrow focus and I think to our detriment because I think it's just very isolating.
- [43:37]
F
You know, all the kind of longevity research points to the fact of how important social connection is. And there are groups of men who are getting together, whether it's in a formalized setting or informal, they're actually practicing this thing that now is being advocated, which is that you should have connections and relationships and feel useful and purposeful and. And so many of the places that you describe, it's like this was now part of their schedule, part of their ritual of life.
- [44:04]
B
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think one of the statistics I talk about in the book is Harvard just recently concluded an 85 year study saying the single most important thing needed for a longer, healthier, happier life is not a good job or physical health, but connection to community. And everywhere I went, I would often hang out in. I'd go to these small towns in local diners in the morning and I just go of breakfast is the most optimistic meal of the day in America. And just you go hang out in a diner and you park yourself there for a while and you'll see the whole world go by. And you know, there was one place in Elkins, West Virginia I went and it was a diner. And in the center of the room there was this table of about six, eight guys, eight to 10 guys actually. And it was the big table in the middle of the room and it was just older guys with their mesh caps on, their Carhartt jackets. And they're just sitting there and one would get up, another guy would come fill his spot. And I asked the people sitting next, I was watching them fascinated. And I asked the people at the next table, I said, is that the brain trust over there? And the lady said to me, she goes, yeah, well they'd like to think so. And but then she said, what exactly what you're speaking to. She goes, at least they've got each other. And I think that's exactly it. You know, they just come there. These guys are going to see each other tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow they just have a place to go and connect with and not feel. Feel so isolated. And I think there's just so much isolation. You know, I asked pretty much everybody, every man I met along the way, I said, you ever feel lonely? And young guys were very quick to kind of go, yeah, yeah, I'm lonely a lot. And older guys would invariably say, no, no, no, too busy. Never feel lonely. And, you know, I know when I answer that quick and that sharp, it's either something I'm afraid of or I'm lying. And. But again, I think the admission of loneliness is tantamount to admitting weakness, you know, so people just. Just pull back on that. And then that keep, you know, keeps us further isolated. I think it's pretty simple. And yet it's something that's so prevalent and something we have fallen prey to.
- [45:59]
F
You know, the inverse is also true that the loneliness is so bad for your health. Right. I mean, you point out statistics that say it's basically worse than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. And as you mentioned, it says there was a study, it was 2021, State of the American Friendship Report. Only 27% of men said they had six or more close friends, and 15% said they had none, no close friends at all.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah, that's up from 3% in 1990. So, I mean, we're going the wrong direction for sure. And, yeah, there's Also, you know, 50% risk increase of dementia for people that are isolated and lonely. I think a 38% risk of increase of heart disease. So it's not just like, oh, loneliness is sad. It's like, no, it's physically affecting our health. And like you allude to, it's equivalent to, I think, 15 cigarettes a day and six alcoholic drinks a day. So, I mean, it's really something that, you know, we ought to be addressing besides just feeling sort of bad about it.
- [46:50]
F
Our audience might, depending on their age, might not remember the movies that you were in. And you were called part of this club called the Brat pack in the 80s, and you had kind of your own struggles with fame and that you weren't really ready. It was sort of thrust upon you. And then you write about the fact that you actively kind of withdrew. And it might have also contributed to, you know, alcoholism and kind of different Stages of your life, life that were difficult. What would you kind of tell yourself maybe at that point in your life about friendships and how important they would be 40 years from now?
- [47:23]
B
You know, you alluded to being in the. The Brat Pack and all that stuff and those. That time in life, and it was kind of a wondrous sort of exciting time. But I did feel sort of very overwhelmed. And had I known, you know, I retreated very much from that because I'm a fairly introverted person and certain way. So had I sort of latched on to my peeps in a stronger way, I think I might navigate it through that easier because it's just good to get out of our heads. You know, there's a lot of nonsense that goes on up there when we don't sort of blow it off. You know, you need a friend to kind of go, hey, wait a minute, dude. What are you. What are you thinking? I was on the trip and I. My wife said, how's Matthew? I reconnected with my buddy in Kentucky. She said, how's Matthew? I said, he's great. He's great. Said, what are you doing? I said, I just stupid stuff. And that's good. You need to do more stupid stuff. I go, sweetheart, I think I do a lot of stupid stuff. And she said, yeah, but you need to do the stupid stuff so you don't do the really stupid stuff. I really understood what that meant. You know, I think we just need to sort of connect. I think it's with a male or female. Although women seem to be much better at it in many ways than men, I think tend to be. You know, I heard a line, I've stolen it, that women make friends face to face, guys make friends shoulder to shoulder. You know, I think something in that. With guys, you know, you hear I met a bunch of men from the military and stuff along my way, and they all talk about how, you know, obviously that's a very bonding experience for guys. And I think that's really true that often with guys, we need to be sort of engaged in kind of an activity. I met one guy along the way, said he had a real hard time telling his daughter, his teenage daughter, that he loved her, but he thought nothing of jumping in the car and driving her eight hours back to college. You know what I mean? The action is demonstration of love for guys. I think in a very real way, we feel. Feel safe in that we know how to find ourselves in action.
- [49:04]
F
Yeah. There's a passage you have with. I can't remember. I think It's Marfa, Texas, where he talks about getting the truck friends, you know, like the guys who just get in the truck and drive, no questions asked. If you ever. And most men are like that, we value loyalty a tremendous amount. It's like, who's really going to have my back for me? You have a quote from Epicurious. It's not so much our friends help that helps us as the confident knowledge that they will help us. We really. We value that so much that we're like, well, the smallest. I mean, you know, we kind of minimize the actual maintenance of that relationship and the words that go into it.
- [49:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of the things I sort of why my friendship sort of slipped away because I just knew, and I did know. Even if I hadn't seen him in a decade, I call up Ed and go, dude, I need help. He's there. You know what I mean? But the active managing and involvement in friendship, it does something different too. Beside that sort of get in the truck quality, there's. As I drove across America and meeting all these guys and reuniting with my friends, I felt sort of like this emotional safety net spread out underneath me in a certain way, in a way that I didn't realize I'd been missing all these years. I feel like many guys feel this great obligation to provide in life, whether it comes from, you know, the caveman and bringing the sabertooth tiger back into the cave or what. This notion that we need to provide, that's what we do. And I think a lot of men's self esteem rises and falls on the degree to which we feel we're providing. Well, you know, and I have talked about this with my wife, and she'll go, oh, sweetheart, we're in this together, you know, and she's absolutely right and everything, but mentioned it to my. My guy friends and they just go. I said, do you ever feel this? And they're like, oh, yeah, of course. It's like the biggest thing in my life. So just that sort of. Without talking about it any further, just that identification and understanding of that, you know, it's not that that's a better than my wife's. It just, as my kids say, it just hits different, you know what I mean? And so I think we need both those kind of things throughout the story.
- [50:53]
F
You're kind of one of those get in the truck kind of friends for a friend of yours, Sevy. And, you know, you get to his apartment in Baltimore and you haven't seen him in years. And describe what was happening. What did you not know?
- [51:07]
B
Well, Sevy, my friend Sevy had terrible back pain and stenosis, narrowing in the spine. So he had to have a massive, you know, one of those eight hour back operations and it just, it didn't work. And so he, this wildly extroverted guy, had become sort of largely a shut in just because he physically wasn't able to maneuver. And I walked in and, and I, you know, he canceled on me a few times. And I was maybe being melodramatic to myself, but I thought, I don't want the next time I see my friend to be at his funeral. I'm going to his house. So I just got in the car and I just drove to his house and just knocked on his door unannounced. And, you know, he opened the door, kind of went dude in that way. The guys do that. That dude contained a lot of ominous things in it. And anyway, his apartment was largely cluttered with all these Amazon delivery boxes and things. And I like really cluttered, like there was no room for anything else. And it was just in that instant I realized, wow, his world has become very small. But I also thought instantly that these sort of, all these boxes, I'm like, what is this? And I thought it was really sort of an act of hope, like, but clicking buy now for all these little things. We're just like, when my life gets back on its feet, I'm gonna need all this stuff. You know what I mean? So. But again, he had just gotten isolated through the course of life. Stuff happens to all of us in life. We have our moments, you know, and he just needed. And I just showed up. You know, I, I learned a lot on the trip, but the thing I learned the most of anything was just, you know, that cliche 90 of life is showing up. Yeah, just go up. You know, I didn't do anything right on this trip. I'm no expert on friendship. I'm no expert on any of this stuff. All I know is I showed up, up, I got in the car and I drove and I went to see him. You know, and there's something. Aristotle talks about the three levels of friendship. And the deepest level, what he called a perfect friendship, is two friends. You know, a two friends are improved by the relationship, and they are able also to name the import of the relationship to each other. You know, I'd show up at my friend's house and say, you drove all this way to see me. And I was just, dude, you know what? You're important in my life. You mean a lot to me, and I just needed to come see you. And to which we were able to reciprocate that. You know, when we were younger, we probably never would have said that to each other.
- [53:13]
F
Author and actor Andrew McCarthy. The book is called who Needs An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendships Across America. Thanks so much for your time.
- [53:22]
B
Thank you.
- [53:24]
A
And finally for us, the pride flag will officially fly again at Stonewall National Monument. The Trump administration agreed in a court settlement Monday. It was removed earlier this year on a government directive, and hundreds took to the street to protest. A group of nonprofits also fought back, filing a lawsuit saying the removal violated federal law. The monument celebrates the Stonewall Inn, an iconic Manhattan bar considered the birthplace of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in America. An important day. Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching and goodbye.
- [54:11]
C
From New York,
- [54:17]
A
I'm Eva Longoria, and I'm setting out to really experience France, to savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history.
- [54:27]
B
Eva Longoria, Searching for France.
- [54:29]
F
Now streaming on the CNN app.
- [54:32]
B
Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry.
- [54:37]
A
There's so much bad information that the really good information gets drowned.
- [54:41]
B
The new CNN original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever. Now streaming on the CNN app.