Paula Newton (4:04)

And the main issue here for Ukraine does seem to be manpower. I mean, as much as Ukraine says that it has, in fact, that 150,000 troops right now are amassing in terms of Russian troops, and yet Ukraine is losing manpower as well and is having a hard time standing up manpower. How crucial is that at this point in this war?

Cedric Layton (4:30)

Well, it's always been a crucial factor, Paula, but one of the things that the Ukrainians have been able to do is they've been able to innovate. They've been able to use technologies such as drone warfare coupled with artificial intelligence to create a type of situation that in essence is a bit of a stalemate. Now, there are certain elements of this war that harken back to World War I, where basically you have a stalemated trench warfare situation, particularly in the eastern part of the country. Country. But then there are other parts of the war, such as the drone part, that are fairly innovative. And the other thing that the Ukrainians are doing is they're using electronic warfare in order to not only keep pace with the Russians, but in some ways to outpace them. Now, the Russians have responded. They have drone capabilities as well, which are very significant. They also have electronic warfare capabilities, which they basically inherited from the Soviet Union, but they've improved over the years. So there are certain elements here where even though there are certain innovations on the Ukrainian side, sometimes those innovations are met by the Russians. And the result of that is that there is a basic stalemate in each of these areas. So the Ukrainians have the capability to hold on to certain territories a lot longer than we thought would be possible, most analysts thought would be possible. But the other part of it is that manpower part that you spoke of and that is something that has been plaguing the Ukrainians really since the start of this phase of the conflict between them and the Russians. In essence, you're talking about a four to one advantage that the Russians have in terms of population and in terms of the size of their militaries. But there are local pockets, such as the area around Pokrovsk, where the Russians have massed troops, and that makes it really hard for the Ukrainians, who are already manpower challenged, to meet that particular effort on the part of the Russians. So the Russians, not only are they massing their troops, but the other factor that they have to contend with is, of course, they're losing a lot of them as well. So Russian losses are much heavier than the Ukrainian losses. But that use of masks that the Russians have instituted is really a key element in their type of warfare.

Paula Newton (6:50)

Yeah, and in some cases, just a complete disregard for the lives of their own soldiers. I mean, I'm sure it is stunning and striking for so many viewers to hear on this day where we Commemorate World War I and the victories there that you are talking about warfare that looks so much like World War I. I do want to ask you, though, when it comes to this imbalance in terms of troops, how long can Ukraine sustain this? Because you and I have spoken before about the fact that Russia is counting on the fact that maybe even by spring or summer, Ukraine cannot sustain this.

Cedric Layton (7:23)

Yeah, that's certainly part of the Russian calculus, Paula. And one of the aspects here that the Russians are thinking about is that if they maintain their alliances with China, for example, and Iran, that they will not only be able to have the massive manpower that is their own plus with a little help from North Korea. Then you also have the technological aspect where the drone swarms, such as those that are produced with Iranian help, both in Russia and in Iran, that can help turn the tides. Russians are counting on those types of things. How long can Ukraine last? It really depends on how much support Ukraine gets from the West. That's going to be critical in this particular case. And if the west were to institute something like a no fly zone, that would stop the war basically in its tracks right now. But nobody is talking in those kinds of terms in capitals, you know, in NATO capitals, but it's also something where that kind of bold action would be required in order to change the course of the war. And I don't see that happening right now.

Paula Newton (8:28)

And Colonel Layton, you know, we do have the G7 foreign ministers meeting in Canada right now to try and parse this. What is the breakthrough there. Because Europe certainly has been speaking about this for months. The United States does not seem to be listening, no matter how many visits President Zelensky has made to the White House.

Cedric Layton (8:48)

Yeah, this is. This is critical. You know, a lot of the European help, both diplomatically and economically, really depends on Europe being able to ramp up its defense industrial base to support the Ukrainians. Now, they've made considerable efforts in that regard. You have companies like Germany's Rhine Mattel, for example, produce, using a lot of artillery, a lot of other weaponry for the Ukrainians, and that has been significant. You have Sweden providing fighters, gripen fighters to the Ukrainians. And that will take a while to get there, but those kinds of actions are going to be crucial for Ukraine to maintain its sovereignty and independence. So when you look at all of these different factors, what the Europeans will have to do is they want to convince the United States because that's a quicker path to victory as far as that is concerned. But failing that, they know that they're going to have to produce a lot on their own, and that's why their economies are basically moving more toward a war footing. You have countries like Poland who have, for a long time kind of foreseen what's going on here. And they're creating the military force that is necessary to maintain their presence in the East. Plus they're also training civilians for wartime duties. So that kind of effort, both in Poland and in the Baltic states, is crucial also, not only economically and militarily, but also psychologically.

Paula Newton (10:10)

Yeah. And even if it changes the strategy on the ground in Europe, many need that ceasefire, even if they continue on a war footing. Colonel Layton, grateful to you for really laying out what's at stake militarily. Appreciate it. And so, as we were just discussing, the war grinds on. Winter fast approaches and temperatures, of course, continue to plummet, making the situation for soldiers in the front line and civilians caught in the conflict even more dire. Medecent Sans Frontiere is one of the organizations helping people on the ground. MSF Secretary General Christopher Lockyer is in Dnipro in Eastern Ukraine, and he joins us now. Really grateful for you to join us at this hour. I'll ask you right off the bat, what are you seeing there, where you are, especially in terms of how it informs what is going on on the battlefield? Civilians are clearly caught in the middle every day.

Christopher Lockyer (11:03)

Yeah, clearly civilians caught in the middle every day. I think what we're. We're seeing is we've seen over recent weeks a real increase in attacks on Energy and electrical infrastructure in particular. And as the winter approaches, this is really antagonizing and further deepening the humanitarian situation for hundreds of thousands of people on the front line. It's also complicating the humanitarian response. Just the other day, I visited three medical facilities, two hospitals and an ambulance dispatch site. And all three of them were struggling with energy supply. The ambulance dispatch site, their team were waiting in the dark, keeping their mobile phones charged to be able to hear about cases that needed referral. And in the hospitals, extremely worried about power outages during critical moments of supporting patients and even power surges, destroying or ruining medical equipment. So it's at a critical moment now as we head into the winter, especially with this context of depleting power supply and attacks on infrastructure.

Paula Newton (12:12)

And you have the benefit of perspective. How would you characterize the morale of the people there? Because so many have now said that actually Ukrainians may be going into their harshest winter ever coming up.

Christopher Lockyer (12:27)

Well, I think it's very tough. I mean, just this morning I was in a shelter for displaced people, people who'd come from the front line. There were on one hand, who was living a room full of three other families. There was eight or nine people, and she'd been there for two or three years. At the same time or a few minutes after that, I met a woman from the cross who just displaced. Just a few weeks earlier, her house, her apartment had been destroyed and she displaced with her daughter and her granddaughter. And she was telling me about her issues in terms of being able to receive medication. She herself was struggling from suffering with hypertension and was really an example of what it is like to get health care. On the. On the front line. There's a lot of people who, particularly elderly, who are having to make this really difficult decision to stay and face the daily terror or face the unknown and the fear of fleeing to somewhere they don't know, somewhere they not belong, after maybe spending generations in the same building, the same house, tending the same farmlands along the. What is over 1000 km of active frontline.

Paula Newton (13:36)

And to that point, the Ukrainian government says that as of October 1, almost 2,500 healthcare facilities are conducted, confirmed, damaged or destroyed, especially when it comes to those vulnerable and those that cannot leave and are left behind. You know, the healthcare system. What can it do to continue to withstand these Russian attacks? Because as I understand it, even if they're not attacked directly. Right. We are talking about this wave upon wave of damage to the energy system.

Christopher Lockyer (14:07)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, what I would start by saying is that, you know, the response is really being led by the Ukrainian authorities, the Ukrainian healthcare system and Ukrainian civil society organizations. Sort of the collective upsurge of response for many, many years now has really been at the forefront of the humanitarian response. But yes, it's infrastructure, yes it's energy, but it's also personnel. It's also having enough human resources to be able to try and treat those patients that are so desperately needing assistance, whether that's due to the physical trauma that they've been facing, the need for rehabilitation and physiotherapy to be able to try lives back on track, or whether it's psychosocial support, psychological support. We estimate that around 20% of the population are suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. And so there is a huge amount of trauma within Ukrainian society as a whole. And that's partly because of injuries sustained on the front line. But it's also the fact that the whole of the country is in range of some of the very, very long ballistic weapons that are being used throughout the country. And everybody needs to be aware when they go to sleep at night where the nearest bunker is in case there's an air raid alert. And so the whole of the huge thousands of kilometers, thousands of kilometers from the frontline people are suffering from the threat of aerial weaponry on a daily basis. And it's really traumatizing the whole population.

Paula Newton (15:34)

And when you talk about that trauma, it is not lost on any of us that we are going into the fourth year where children, some children born should be going into kindergarten and yet all they've known is war. How much more difficult is it for children to really, the longer this lasts, how much more of an indelible mark this kind of trauma will leave on their lives?

Christopher Lockyer (15:57)

Well, of course, children are particularly vulnerable in any war, in any conflict situation. And since the full scale escalation that that's particularly so here. But I think what we're also looking at is intergenerational trauma. It's going to be a generation of people who, with a significant proportion of people who have physical trauma have lost limbs. I've seen many patients over the last few days who've had limbs amputated, but it's also going to take generations to get over the psychological trauma of living in this terror for such a long time. So even if this war were to stop tomorrow, so there's decades and decades and generations of work to do to rebuild society and to get back to.

Paula Newton (16:41)

Your work on the ground there, in terms of msf, how confident are you in terms of being able to continue to bring that help to them on the ground. Again, when we look at the amount of medical facilities that some say are deliberately targeted by Russia, what are you dealing with in the coming winter?

Christopher Lockyer (17:03)

Yeah, well, whether targeted or not, we know that hospitals have been hit, ambulances have been hit, civilians walking in the streets of Kherson have been hit. So it's a very, very real, it's a very, very real threat. Our objective really is to try and be in the right place at the right time to be able to treat people as close to the front lines as possible. That means that we have to be very dynamic as frontlines move, we have to move where we're carrying out. Always trying to assess new health facilities where we'd be able to support. So that means lots of mobile clinics, ambulance services to be able to try and refer patients to high level medical facilities, but also having areas in which we can carry out longer term treatment. So particularly people who require rehabilitation, physiotherapy, both in the acute phase after a surgery, but also so that they can sustain that for several weeks and months to come and also sustain mental health support for issues like ptsd, as we've said. So it's a combination, it's a patchwork of activities, both being able to try and maintain contact with patients, but also trying to be creative to ensure that we can get health care to as close to the front lines and the most vulnerable populations that we can.

Paula Newton (18:22)

And Christopher, you were very clear that of course Ukrainian civil society itself does lead on the medical aspects of this. But how worried are you about what that system actually buckling? Especially when I look at the swath of energy infrastructure that has been impacted, that is hospitals, clinics having to work with generators if then they can get the fuel. I mean, there's lots of different things that go into keeping these medical facilities up and running. How worried are you going into winter?

Christopher Lockyer (18:52)

I think we're extremely worried going into winter. I mean, we've had to, to close operations and locations because of proximity to the frontline and trying to as much as possible keep our teams safe. So we're worried about that. We're also worried about what it's going to mean in terms of people displacing and fleeing over the next few months. As well as the energy infrastructure is hit and depleted, it does mean that people's living conditions, their humanitarian situations, their need, their, their desperate need to keep warm increases. And as the front lines move, that also puts them under pressure. And so we're going to expect to see people moving over the next few weeks as the temperatures drop, especially if they don't have electricity, which is going to further compound the demands on the health facilities throughout, particularly eastern Ukraine, but also the country as a whole.

Paula Newton (19:44)

Christopher Lockyer, we wish you and your teams on the ground much strength in the weeks and months to come. Christopher Lock for us. Appreciate it now. Stay with cnn. We will be right back after a short break. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com tab I Got.

Michael Ian Black (20:39)

News for your ears. The podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black.

Hassan Hadi (20:44)

He's trying to do all the vertical video stuff now. He's like, like seeing that it works, seeing the people get excited.

Tom Hanks (20:48)

I hear the kids like it.

Bonnie Cohen (20:49)

Schumer, every time he opens his mouth.

Michael Ian Black (20:51)

He is not built for this moment.

Bonnie Cohen (20:53)

He came of age 30, 40, 80 years ago when there was still some decorum in politics.

Tom Hanks (20:59)

I read an interview once where someone was saying that he always tries to find out who you're dating and like, when are you getting married? And like, why? Why do you.

Cedric Layton (21:07)

Right.

Hassan Hadi (21:08)

I don't think Chuck Schumer's good at.

Paula Newton (21:10)

Getting out there and saying, like, what.

Bonnie Cohen (21:11)

Is the thing Chuck Schumer is good at?

Michael Ian Black (21:13)

Great question.

Cedric Layton (21:14)

Matchmaking?

Hassan Hadi (21:15)

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Ian Black (21:16)

Have I got news for your ears. Releases episodes every Wednesday. Don't miss an episode.

Paula Newton (21:21)

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

Paula Newton (21:29)

And now to Iraq, where today's parliamentary elections are underway. A staggering 8,000 candidates are competing, but some polls predict it could be the lowest turnout in the country's young democratic life after its transition in 2005. Now this moment offers us a chance to reflect on the vast changes Iraq has undergone in the last two decades, from the US Invasion and the toppling of Saddam Hussein to the years of war, uncertainty and eventual rebuilding that followed. Now a new film takes us back to the time when the notorious dictator was still in power. The President's Cake tells the seemingly simple story of Lamia, a schoolgirl who is tasked with making a cake for Saddam's birthday. The assignment reveals much more about the difficulties of living and growing up under authoritarian rule. And I am joined now by the writer and director of the President's cake. Hassan Hadi, welcome to the program. Really good to have you.

Hassan Hadi (22:29)

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Paula Newton (22:31)

Now, please forgive me. I will take some creative license here because I would describe this as Iraq's origin story that's never been told. It's actually your origin story. You grew up in Iraq and you chose to write this and make it your directorial debut. What does this film mean to you?

Hassan Hadi (22:51)

I mean, the film means a lot because it's based on my childhood memories growing up in Iraq. And as you said, it's my origins. And the film is partly shot in the marshes of Iraq, which is, is, you know, it's being said that it's where the civilization was born. So like it was in many ways it's like the origin of me, the origin of Iraq identity. And you know, I think it's also the origin of what we are now as Iraq in 2025.

Paula Newton (23:21)

The cinematography was so stunning, we were privileged to get a preview of it. It doesn't release widely until next year, but I actually found the cinematography so breathtaking at times. It was distracting. Now tell me, you could have shot this in other locations in the Middle East. It probably would have been easier for you. But you've said that Iraq is in the DNA of this film. How so?

Hassan Hadi (23:42)

Yeah, we actually got like multiple offers, like to be fully financed under the condition to shoot the film outside Iraq. But like, we decided to shoot this film in Iraq because I believe stories have DNAs and they have origins and they have stamp on them. You cannot really fake that. And this film has such a strong DNA that I really couldn't see this film being shot anywhere except in Iraq. And also I wanted to break this stigma about Iraq. I know so many people have very specific idea about what Iraq is and how stable Iraq is. So for me, it was very important as a, as a filmmaker to insist that this film is going to be told from Iraq by Iraqi actors and it's going to tell a very local story to an international audience.

Paula Newton (24:26)

And specifically some of those scenes, the shooting on the marshlands was riveting. The scenes of the city, so evocative. But I am wondering how does this complement what is really a character driven film?

Hassan Hadi (24:38)

I mean, the film, you know, the thing is a story that takes us on a journey from the south of Iraq to the city of Baghdad. So we really follow this girl and we really are very much immersed in her, into her perspective as she tries to bring the President's birthday to celebrate Saddam Hussein's birthday. So we really go in this journey and that like unpacks so much of the Iraqi society at that time. Because the film takes place in the 90s and it's a period that has never been depicted on screen, neither locally or even internationally. So it was a very much like an important part of Iraq's history. So as a filmmaker, I was very much surprise and shock when that. When I was trying to tell the story that no one even has depicted this period. And it's shocking because it's such an important. We really feel the impact of that period. We had sanctions for 13 years. Many people paid the price for that sanctions. And we still struggle from the after effects or side effects of the sanctions. Even though.

Paula Newton (25:48)

Indeed. And I do want to talk about the characters now. Lamia, played by Benin Ahmad Naif, she never acted before. You took quite a risk. And yet the film truly rests on one extraordinary day in this little girl's life and how she reacts to it. I mean, you make really her the centerpiece of nearly every scene. I want us to look at a clip now from the film where she's told by her teacher that she will be baking Saddam Hussein's birthday cake.

Tom Hanks (26:15)

Listen.

Paula Newton (27:05)

You see the enormity of what she's being asked all over her face. I mean, look, this was an extraordinary performance, but she's a novice young talent. How did you coax this performance out of her?

Hassan Hadi (27:16)

I mean, all of our cast was, you know, non actors. But like with her, she was the last person we actually cast for the film. And it was very much like a short time before like we started shooting. And I received this 30 seconds clip of her saying her name and you know, school. And I was like immediately drawn to put her in the film. But like at the beginning we actually, actually were faced by the parents opposition to have their daughter on the screen. And you know, that's something we also struggled with when we were trying to make the film. But like it took us some explanation and convincing that, you know, later the parents became very supportive of their daughter to be in the film. She is a natural talent. I believe that. You know, I was looking for a kid that doesn't need to act. It's just how they are. And you know, working with non actors is very different technique than working with actors. You need to make them in a very certain situation that they need to believe what's happening is real and it's not something that they can, you know, it's different for them than actors because they don't have, they don't have the training. They don't have the tools that they can access like actors do. So very much for this case, what was happening, for a large degree, they were believing in it too.

Paula Newton (28:34)

Hassan, in your first directorial debut, you broke all the rules. You're not supposed to work with animals or children. In your first film, we saw a picture there of Hindi, the pet rooster. How was it like working with. It was really comical, actually, to watch.

Hassan Hadi (28:48)

I have to say. We had four or five roosters in on set. We had one star that he would do. We called him Hindi, one taker. I learned how to speak, like, you know, with Hindi. So it was really nice. But like, you know, Hindi also represents something in the film. You know, people from that region really have so much, so many pets. It can be buffalo, dogs, cats. And her pet was a rooster. But rooster also has a cultural meaning, which is they're majestical animals. And it's being said that every time a rooster crows, it's either because he saw a devil or an angel. And in the film, every time the rooster crows, there's some meaning to what's going to happen or is happening in the sea.

Paula Newton (29:31)

Well, it certainly, as I said, was evocative, but also humorous. There is delightful humor in this film. The humor that at times really highlights the absurdity of living under this kind of a dictatorship. The sanctions, the crude joke of having to bake a cake when people couldn't find eggs or sugar. I mean, how do you want audiences to understand that period of time in Iraq's history which you lived through? Right. Apparently you had to bring. Was it fruit or flowers you had to bring to your class?

Hassan Hadi (29:59)

Yeah, I mean, I was lucky I was picked for my. For flowers. But, like, that flower is an easy thing. And also, teachers really didn't so much give specific attention to it because all they cared about was cake and eating the cake. I didn't taste the cake until I. Pretty old, to be honest. And that was the case. It's like the teachers take the cake to share it with his family. So it's like you live in. Dictatorships are like a matter of paradox. You are being asked by your president to bring a cake when the country is. When the sugar and flour. Selling sugar and flour is banned in the country. So this is like, you know, this is the paradox we live. We used to live in. And at the same time, there's the sanctions, which, you know, impacted everyone in the society and changed the fabric of the society to a large degree.

Paula Newton (30:47)

In fact, you've said that the sanctions were more harmful in some ways than the American invasion. And taking from that, I wonder how you believe your film resonates with children all over the world because as we know and as you've pointed out, there are children living under those sanctions today and living in deplorable conditions.

Hassan Hadi (31:05)

I mean, one of the things I want people to think about when they watch this film that I know in mainstream ideas, sanctions is perceived as a non harmful, a very diplomatic tool. But sanctions can be more terrifying and more harmful than honestly sometimes bombs. Sanctions. 13 years of sanctions led to 500,000 deaths in children in Iraq. And what they do, they strip people from their humanity and dignity and they change the nature of people. And that's what happened in Iraq. Iraqi society changed completely because of the sanctions. It's a very different situation when parents cannot afford for their children what they want. For example, it was really difficult for my family sometimes to even afford basic needs for the school. Pen and pencils were banned from importing to Iraq because they contained a component that could be used in a weapon. So that's why Iraq was banned from putting pens and pencils. And that's what I hope that the audience understand. The sanctions is not only targeting leaders, it basically targets the ordinary people, everyday people. And that's why the film focuses on. It tells the story of everyday Iraqi people, people that usually will read and hear about them as numbers.

Paula Newton (32:28)

Yeah, Hassan Hadi, the film is the president and it's out in theaters in February. And congratulations.

Hassan Hadi (32:35)

Thank you very much.

Paula Newton (32:37)

Thank you.

Paula Newton (32:38)

Stay with cnn. We'll be right back.

Cedric Layton (32:50)

Hey, fans, it's the king of Christmas.

Bonnie Cohen (32:53)

If you're suffering from ornament overload, it's.

Christopher Lockyer (32:55)

A little messy in here.

Hassan Hadi (32:57)

If you, you have blow molds on the brain.

Michael Ian Black (32:59)

What I need in my life right there.

Tom Hanks (33:01)

You might just be a holiday hoarder.

Paula Newton (33:03)

I'm a collector.

Michael Ian Black (33:04)

We'll use the C word instead. If it's kind of ugly, why don't.

Cedric Layton (33:08)

We get rid of it?

Michael Ian Black (33:08)

Would you get rid of an ugly child?

Hassan Hadi (33:11)

I knew you were crazy about Christmas.

Paula Newton (33:14)

Not this crazy.

Cedric Layton (33:15)

Courting for the Holidays Special Series, Tuesday.

Bonnie Cohen (33:18)

November 11th at 9 on HGTV.

Paula Newton (33:25)

Now, since 2001, more than 140,000American veterans, veterans and active duty soldiers have taken their own lives. That's according to the organization Stop Soldier Suicide. Many who've served abroad return home traumatized with little support for their mental health. Now a new documentary in Waves and War follows those who sought out an unconventional alternative in Mexico in hopes of healing. He was doing all the things he was told to do, and he was actually getting work. I got his medical records. I completely changed my approach. Psychedelic medicines proved to be effective, but both are illegal in the United States, so Marcus would have to travel to Mexico. And director Bonnie Cohen and former Navy SEAL Marcus Capone joins Hari Srinivasan in this conversation.

Paula Newton (34:20)

Paulo, thanks. Bonnie Cohen, Marcus Capone, thank you both for joining us. Your recent film that's now visible on Netflix everywhere, is a really fascinating journey. Marcus, I want to start with you. It is a documentary called In Waves and War, and it's about veterans going to Mexico to try a psychedelic treatment to try to overcome some of the intense PTSD and traumatic brain injuries. And I guess I just want to start by asking, why did you try this treatment in the first place?

Michael Ian Black (34:52)

Yeah, I think, you know, I think the movie is a lot broader than that. I mean, this is a very human. You know, it's a human touch. It's a human element, and that's the most important. It follows three Navy SEALs, two individuals I served with for over 20 years. But it really touches the human side of this issue. And, you know, as a Nation, we fought 20 years of sustained combat. We've never seen that in history. It's unprecedented. And individuals coming home are really introduced to the current system. And whether that's military medicine or VA healthcare, when someone retires or separates or even private sector care. And granted, there are many individuals out there that want to help. The problem is the system is a bit old. And many of these individuals, about 50%, including myself and I was one of them that come back, we have something called treatment resistant mental health, meaning that the medicines, the drugs, the antidepressants, the SSRIs, the SNRIs, the traditional talk therapy, it just doesn't work for half of the population. And so what do we do? We need to pour money into research, and we need to have affordable access here in the U.S. that's why we're going outside the U.S. to places where these treatments are legal and unregulated. And for me, seven years of failed antidepressants, talk therapy, brain treatment centers, I had to travel outside the country to seek out the care that really afforded me where we're at today.

Paula Newton (36:17)

But, Bonnie, what's fascinating to me is that that, as Marcus mentioned, this is such a sort of human story. How did you figure out a way to just let these people be vulnerable in front of you on camera? Which seems completely opposite to what has been their winning formula in their lives, which is, I'm not going to talk about what I do.

Bonnie Cohen (36:40)

I mean, I would argue this is a winning formula, trying to find heroism in. And heroism invulnerability is what this is all about. And this is their next mission. Right. And they're there for each other and they're there to get well and find healing both for themselves as individuals and also for their families. Just to be completely frank about it, we would not have seen any of this without Marcus and Amber basically creating an entryway for us to their community. This is a community that is trained to be low key, secretive, not public about what they do in their public and private lives. And it took years of trust with the guidance of Marcus and Amber for us to be able to develop those relationships. And like with any film, if you take time and care and create those relationships, the vulnerability can emerge. And this is a community that wants to help each other.

Paula Newton (37:44)

Marcus, you served several tours in Afghanistan. You retired from the military back in 2013. Right. Tell us a little bit, if you can, about the combat situations. What caused the ptsd? What caused you to be in a place where you were so heavily medicated that you were willing to try anything that you maybe had reached your wit's end.

Michael Ian Black (38:06)

Yeah. So multiple tours both to Afghanistan and Iraq.03 to roughly 2010, back and forth. But I just think the culmination of years of combat, years of constantly on. You're on that bullet train, you're constantly deploying, you're constantly away, 300 days out of year. Now you mix in which so much research is coming out with traumatic brain injury. We'll call it mild traumatic brain injury. So these are, these are injuries to the brain that are sub concussive. So even individuals that are not being knocked out, out, granted, the ones that are being knocked out from explosions, from hits to the head, et cetera, those are concussive blows. These are called sub concussive blows. There's research operator syndrome, very similar symptoms as ptsd. And so I just want to put that out there because the term PTSD is also stigmatized. But really it's just the host of symptoms that you're having. Depression, anxiety, potentially substance use disorder to numb those things. So it's a culmination of maybe some childhood trauma. Finding out that's, that's very prevalent. Of course, some more time trauma, years of deployments, years of burying your friends, then you leave your family, you transition into the private sector, and it just doesn't have the same. That's how it's. To me, it's just the Easy way to explain it just doesn't have the same passion and purpose and mission that you had for so long. So you throw all that together and it's kind of a culmination for disaster. And that's really what a lot of individuals are going through.

Paula Newton (39:35)

Before we talk a little bit about ibogaine, the Navy SEALs had a spokesman said back in 2024, while initial research shows some positive results, ibogaine remains a Schedule 1 substance, making its use illegal under U.S. law. The Navy has zero tolerance for drug abuse and seals should instead seek care through approved medical channels. So if that is the context in which the US government and the Navy sees this, Markus, I want you to tell us a little bit about what is this drug? What is it actually doing to the brain or what is it allowing the brain to do on its own?

Michael Ian Black (40:12)

Sure. So as a non medical expert, I don't have MD or PhD after my name, but ibogaine has been around for a long time. It is extracted from a root called iboga. Iboga is grown in West Africa. There's tribes have been using it there for many years, as I mentioned earlier, for mental health and detoxification and other spiritual growth, you know, consciousness enhancement. Ibogaine is most prevalent in iboga. They extract the ibogaine out, it's a single molecule. And ibogaine puts you on about a six to eight hour, very intense psychedelic experience. Not like your typical, if you call them tryptamines or classic psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, where everything's kind of a little weird. Ibogaine, you're. It's a, it's an extremely medicalized treatment. So you're in a bed, you do a ton of blood work, you do an ekg. You can't have anything in your system. As Bonnie mentioned, there are contraindications. You're constantly monitored by nurse and by doctors. What it does is it allows you to see different aspects of your life that may be affecting you on your day to day from different perspectives. So for instance, and this one's easy, I was judging my family. Really difficult. Like I would judge them for every. I would judge Amber, I would judge the kids, you know, why do you do this? Why do you do that? Well, during my ibogaine journey, I had a perspective shift of I felt what it was like being judged by my father. And it hurt. And when you're in the experience, you actually feel it. Like you actually, you know, DJ talks about, I felt the sweat of my shirt. You're in the moment. And I felt how horrible it is to be judged like that. And then I saw myself judging my family. You know what I said? I would never judge them again. And so just think of how many years of therapy that can take to change an individual where that happens literally overnight. And that story is replicated thousands and thousands of times over. But it's just a good example of what they do.

Paula Newton (42:18)

Bonnie, you chose a very interesting kind of vehicle to help the viewer understand what Marcus or the other veterans tell us about how you chose to. How you visualized and designed what is possibly happening in somebody else's brain and sharing that with an audience at Netflix.

Bonnie Cohen (42:34)

Sure. Well, Marcus talked about it, you know, the perspective shift that happens in the ibogaine on the medicine, where, as he's described, you're not only. You're not only going through a life review, but you can actually shape shift into someone else's point of view and watch the scene from another angle. That lends itself to an animated visual experience.

Michael Ian Black (42:59)

I was able to see these difficult moments from my life from a different angle, and it made me realize that.

Paula Newton (43:09)

None of this was my fault.

Michael Ian Black (43:19)

The weight was getting lifted off.

Bonnie Cohen (43:22)

In Marcus's experience, he described seeing photographs of his life, you know, going by like a deck of cards. I mean, just for us as visual storytellers, being able to use that imagery and translate that into animation felt like just the way to go. Because a photorealistic approach would be kind of crazy. You know, what would you do with that? Whereas if you can be in a more ethereal, animated space and recognize those documentary photographs and elements and storytelling while also having the perspective shifts visually, we saw that that could sort of create a pseudo experience of being in the ibogaine and what these guys might be seeing.

Tom Hanks (44:04)

Medicine takes you right to the crest.

Michael Ian Black (44:07)

And you fall off. You get into this line of work.

Tom Hanks (44:10)

Because we feel like it's who we are.

Michael Ian Black (44:13)

What.

Paula Newton (44:13)

What you really do in the film is point out how crucial and important the family was, is around them, and the ripple effects of what happens to this individual and what happens. Sometimes it destroys families. Sometimes it's just the challenges that they quietly live with.

Bonnie Cohen (44:30)

Yeah, I mean, we really tried to highlight the families in the film. We, you know, Caden, Marcus and Amber's son was brave enough to participate in the film and also show his vulnerability, which in my mind, is equally, as you point out, as valid and interesting and important to consider as the veterans who are the service people of the military coming home. And I just. I think what we really tried to do with the film is show how the wives. Marcus talked about Amber being his rock and his reason for survival. That's really true. And we saw that over and over again with the wives who we spoke.

Michael Ian Black (45:06)

To.

Bonnie Cohen (45:08)

When they were dealing with, you know, their husbands, who they loved, who they thought that they recognized, come home really acting and seeming like different people, and they didn't. They didn't quite know what to do. And it's. It's. You sort of live in a shame of that and a quiet of that, that doesn't feel like you can talk to people freely and try and get the help that's needed. And there's a particular formula in this country for what that help should look like, and it wasn't the right help.

Cedric Layton (45:34)

Help.

Bonnie Cohen (45:34)

And these women you see in the film, you see Amber and then you see Patsy Shipley, DJ's wife, reach out to Amber to have to. To seek help for her husband. And they are tenacious. They go after these remedies and these solutions, and they will try anything, and it works for them. And they're willing to really, you know, go to the last stop on the train to make sure that their family can come back to health. So you want to talk about heroines and heroes in this film, you really need to look at the wives.

Paula Newton (46:08)

There's a statistic that an admiral in this film mentions that four times as many service members and veterans have died by suicide than have been killed in combat. And that is just an astounding number. What types of treatments were they trying? Assuming not all of them had the same outcomes, not all of them chose to try this treatment. In Mexico.

Michael Ian Black (46:29)

We've lost now over 140,000 veterans, active duty by their own hand, death by suicide. And it's heart wrenching to think about that. We fight these wars, we do what we're supposed to do. We do it for our country, we do it for ourselves. But then we come home and we fight this other battle, and we're losing so many more individuals to suicide than we did on the battlefield. There's just something wrong there. There's. There's something. You know, I don't want to call it broken, because again, when you go down to the individual level, no matter where we're at the va, the medical, the military medical system, private care, everybody wants to help. I just don't believe we have the tools right now to do that. And to go back to your question, I've seen everything across the board, but what seems to be the standard treatment of care for folks coming back that are labeled, you know, having PTSD or symptoms of depression, anxiety. It's a bag. It's a bag of pills. It's antidepressants, it's SSRIs, it's SNRIs, it's mood stabilizers. The problem if individuals don't respond to those, they up their dose or they change their medication, and then individuals start having other symptoms, they may not be able to concentrate, so they're given drugs like Nuvigil and Provigil. These things gave me incredibly terrible migraine headaches. Some people are then prescribed Adderall for more focus, or now they can't sleep because they're on these medications that are keeping them up. To help them focus, they're prescribed Ambien and other sleep drugs to go to bed.

Paula Newton (48:10)

Marcus, I also want to use this opportunity because I have no idea what veteran is watching, what at what time, and whether this interview reaches somebody who is struggling with their mental health. And if there was something that you could say to them, what. What do you say? What would you say to try to, I don't know, give them some hope?

Michael Ian Black (48:36)

Yeah. Well, that's exactly what I'd say is, is they need to have hope. If you're. If you're listening, if you're watching, you need to have hope. You need to understand that I've been there. DJ's been there. Maddie's been there. Literally thousands of individuals, friends that we worked with, we've all been there. And I just want to say that we're working on. We're working on it. We're doing our best to open up affordable access here in the US we shouldn't be going overseas for treatment, especially for a country we live in and love and we fought for. And I just want to say also, there has to be action. You have to want to heal. You know, we can bring you to the water to drink, but we can't make you drink it, right? So you have to, you know, you got to find that fortitude, and you got to find that bit to just get up, get out there, call a friend, check on your friends, check on your kids, check on your spouse, make sure people are doing what they can to heal. As society, we need our tribe. We need our community. We can't do this alone.

Paula Newton (49:34)

Marcus Capone, Bonnie Cohen. The film is called In Waves and War. You can see it on Netflix now. Thank you both so much for joining us.

Bonnie Cohen (49:41)

Thank you.

Michael Ian Black (49:42)

Thank you.

Paula Newton (49:43)

And finally, for us, remembering those who've lost their lives in combat, today is Veterans Day or Army Day for some, from France to Britain to the U.S. many are taking moments of silence, wearing poppies and laying wreaths to honor members of the armed forces who died serving their country. And to mark the bravery of all those soldiers, we take a look back at Christiane's conversation with actor Tom Hanks at last year's 80th anniversary of D Day in Normandy, France. She started by asking how he felt about Russia's prolonged war in Ukraine, which of course, rages on.

Tom Hanks (50:21)

I never thought there'd be a land war in Europe in my lifetime, once again, because it had proven to be so disastrous for all of humanity the last time somebody tried that. And it's funny how often it comes out of the ego of one human being. One guy back in the 1930s says, no, I'm going to solve all these problems because I know what works and what does not work. I think, you know, look, I'm a lay historian, and I'm as opinionated as any knothead that you're ever going to come across. But there was this thought that America, particularly America, was lazy, was divided, was undisciplined, that couldn't get its act together, that would never band together in order just to do the right thing by choice. And when I'm here, I think of a bunch of kids. It was a young force that came here. They were somewhere between heights. If you were 25 years old, they called you Pops or they called you the old man. And they left absolute, all of the comforts of a very comfortable America, safe America on the other side of the ocean. And they put themselves here for what? Because it was the right thing to do. And they were not defending a status quo. They were not gaining territory. They were not here for riches. They were not here to conquer anything. They were really here in order to mend the future. If I can coin a word that has just come out in a book that I read not too long ago.

Bonnie Cohen (51:48)

Can I ask you something? Because one man is doing it again, Vladimir Putin. He hasn't been invited. He was, you know, 10 years ago, but this time not. Do you think? I think when you think about it, Americans would do this again. British would do it again. I mean, we're in the fight of our lives again.

Tom Hanks (52:05)

You don't have to go back very far to believe. As early as 1939 and 1940 and big parts of 1941, there was a huge vocal section of the United States of America that said, no way. Charles Lindbergh led the America First. There were literally Nazi Party Rallies in the Madison Square Garden in which Adolf Hitler and George Washington, their images were up on stage at the same time. It wasn't until, of course, that we were attacked that everybody kind of, like, wised up and realized that something very venal was going on in the world. You can't help but wonder, where would it be right now? And I have absolute 100% faith in the American people and the concept of what is right and right is wrong. And if something is as definitive as what happened in Europe back then, I don't think there'd be any question that it would take time. It would not be overnight. It would be. It would be thought out and would be, I think, taking into account all the lessons that were learned. What happens when you don't do it right over a long course?

Bonnie Cohen (53:04)

Can I ask you? I walked over there, looked at the beach. It's Omaha beach, the cliffs that those boys had to scale. You did that film Saving Price. I know you're an actor, but everybody says it's one of the most realistic depictions of what happened that day. Can you recall what it was like actually filming that and putting yourselves in their boots for that period of time?

Tom Hanks (53:26)

Well, of course, you know, part of it is glamorous, fun, you know, but at the other time, as soon as the camera started rolling and everything started happening, there was a tactile quality to the confusion. There was. There is a moment when, of course, as actors, we're just pretending, but there comes a moment where the reason we're there is to capture the truth as the film rolls and to be cold, wet, scared and have it be awfully noisy for an awful long time. It's also our job as lay historians, because for good or for bad, that movie is a document that has to accurately reflect the tenor of that day. And I'd like to thank that we did. And hearing it from a number of people who said, as confusing as that is, well, multiply that by, we did not have the smell of cordite or burning flesh or, you know, blood on the sand, but we did have some version of that, the. Whatever you can get out of a motion picture. I think we captured it.

Paula Newton (54:26)

And that's it for the program. I want to thank you for watching, and goodbye from New York.

Paula Newton (54:34)

Foreign.

Michael Ian Black (54:43)

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. Grief can feel so lonely, but talking about it and listening to others share their experiences helps.

Cedric Layton (54:51)

On my podcast, All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities.

Michael Ian Black (54:56)

My guest is Ken Burns, one of the greatest documentary filmmakers of all time. We forget that these losses are often the most important and animating aspects of who we are, that we are not just defined by it, but sometimes our accomplishments are issuing out of that.

Cedric Layton (55:16)

Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about.

Michael Ian Black (55:20)

New episodes of all there is come out Tuesday nights.

Tom Hanks (55:23)

Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.