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- [00:06]
Christiana Amanpour
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:11]
Michael Ian Black
I think there is a framework and an outline upon which we can make real progress.
- [00:14]
Christiana Amanpour
Trump's top diplomat pitches the U. S. Iran agreement to skeptical regional allies. We get the expert. Take then a place for us all. A new party in Israel so split evenly for the first time between Arab and Jewish Israelis. The co founders join me to discuss their daring wartime gambit putting peaceful coexistence at the center of politics.
- [00:38]
Michael Ian Black
Also ahead, I think what it has become over our 250 years is the touchstone. It's not the document we argue over, like the Constitution. It's the document that tells us how we should want to live together.
- [00:49]
Christiana Amanpour
National treasure, the Declaration of Independence and, and how it continues to shape America today. Walter Isaacson discusses this with the author and historian Michael Oslin. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiana Manpour. In London, Secretary of State Marco Rubio is on a lightning tour of Persian Gulf allies trying to shore up their support for the U. S. Iran agreement. But as the negotiations plow on, there are differences about the MoU being expressed publicly by both the Iranian lead negotiators and President Trump. Despite American claims, for instance, Iran says there are no plans for the UN Nuclear inspections until the final negotiations take place. Despite Iranian claims, Trump and Rubio say there is no way Iran will have have any control of the Strait of Hormuz.
- [01:56]
Michael Ian Black
When we mean open the straits, we mean open the straits free in international waterways. I know of no country on the planet that supports tolling or a fee for the use of the straits. That's just not, that's not going to happen.
- [02:09]
Christiana Amanpour
The President has been abundantly clear. And at home, the President is angry at Senate Republicans who just voted with Democrats to stop him resuming the war with Iran, calling the vote poorly timed, meaningless and a comfort to the enemy. So where will this all settle? How do the Persian Gulf states view it all? Let's bring in two regional experts. Georgetown Professor Mehran Kamrava joins me from Doha, Qatar. And the former U.S. national Security Adviser Daniel Silverberg from Washington, D.C. welcome both of you to the program. Mayor on Kamrab, if I can start with you because you're right there in Qatar. Now, the Secretary of State hasn't visited Qatar, but he has gone to the other Gulf states, certainly Kuwait. Where do you think this is going to land? How do you think the Gulf states are going to be reacting to this MoU between Iran and the United States?
- [03:09]
Mehran Kamrava
Well, there's A collective sigh of relief. Of course, not all the Persian Gulf states speak with one voice. Oman is openly discussing some sort of administrative apparatus for the Strait of Hormuz with Iran. None of the other states of the Gulf Cooperation Council are excited about that. But I think collectively there's a desire to see hostilities end and kind of this agreement finalized between Iran and, and the United States.
- [03:50]
Rula Daoud
Right.
- [03:51]
Christiana Amanpour
Well, Daniel, let me ask you and Daniel Silverman, when I said, you know, national security adviser, it was to the House majority leader at the timesilverberg, rather. Oh, gosh, I'm getting confused. Can you tell me what you think? Is the United States, after all of this going to stay in those bases which were attacked by Iran? Does it make sense for the GCC to have the United States in those bases because they were not protected or were they protected during this war?
- [04:25]
Daniel Silverberg
Well, Christy Hong, thank you so much for having me and thank you for the promotion. To get our conversation started, let me address two points here. One, I think Secretary Rubio very much has his work cut out for him in the Gulf. I agree with Mehran that the Gulf states welcome stability here. They welcome the temperature coming down. They are terrified, though, about what exactly was agreed to, which still is not clear. It has to be distinguished between what the two parties discussed in the MoU. And as you rightfully mentioned, it's still not clear what is the agreement around the Strait of Hormuz and then the ongoing nuclear negotiations. And given the precariousness around these negotiations, given the clear challenges demonstrated so far about actually opening the Strait, only about a third of the pre war traffic is flowing right now. I believe our Gulf allies are deeply, deeply concerned about what this agreement and what the negotiations mean for them. I don't expect the US to be questioning our military presence in the Gulf. I think that's actually going to be an avenue for reassurance in coming days.
- [05:38]
Christiana Amanpour
Can I just ask you, because I'll ask Mayhran as well, do you actually think that these public disagreements about the very basics in the MoU and we haven't even got to the actual full negotiations, you know, deeply into that, do you think it can torpedo this process?
- [06:00]
Daniel Silverberg
Well, it absolutely. These negotiations are in a remarkably precarious place. And notwithstanding I think the positive statements that Vice President Vance issued, there are extraordinarily complicated issues that took the Obama administration years to figure out. This is not on a 60 day window. And I think the concern of the Gulf states is that they didn't want this war, but they could be left holding the bag if the strait remains precariously open, meaning some days Iran lets traffic through, other days it doesn't. Some days they could say, well, only countries of this origin are allowed to go through or not just tolls. They could do something like there's a new environmental certification. Have you filled out this form? Until there is clarity on those issues, I don't think the Gulf states are going to be reassured.
- [06:59]
Christiana Amanpour
Okay, Mayor on Kamrava, do you think these outstanding issues just in the MOU and the differences over the Strait of Hormuz over whether there will or won't be any immediate UN Nuclear inspectors, do you think it can torpedo the deal between the United States and Iran?
- [07:18]
Mehran Kamrava
Possibly. Of course, the devil is in the details, but I think what we're seeing is a determined effort on both sides to come to some sort of agreement, no matter how imperfect. And I think both the Iranians and the Americans are fully aware that the wild card here is Israel and that the Israelis can easily play the role of spoilers and torpedo any final agreement. And so although much hard work remains, as Daniel just mentioned, I think there's also a determined effort to come to some sort of agreement between the two sides.
- [08:04]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah. And of course conversations and negotiations between Israel and the state of Lebanon continue. But of course it's Hezbollah in the middle of all of this that could trigger something. And Israel's reaction. Now I want to ask you both about the idea of missiles. You're there, Mehran Kamrava, and you've heard and I'm going, so you know, listen to what President Trump said about the issue of missiles because up until now they haven't been part of this mou. They're not part of the final agreement. They weren't part of the Obama era jcpoa and they still aren't. This is what President Trump said about this particular issue.
- [08:44]
Walter Isaacson
I said, well, what am I going to do?
- [08:46]
Jim Biederman
Am I going to let Saudi Arabia
- [08:48]
Walter Isaacson
have missiles but they can't have them?
- [08:50]
Jim Biederman
Yes, sir.
- [08:52]
Walter Isaacson
It doesn't work that way. You know, it doesn't work that way.
- [08:55]
Jim Biederman
And missiles aren't the problem missiles are. They hurt a little location, but they
- [09:00]
Christiana Amanpour
don't blow up the planet. So Rubio has sort of suggested that in the end missiles might be addressed in the final, you know, months down the road situation. But what do you think, Daniel? Do you think this is an issue or is trump right? And J.D. vance, they've said every country has the right to self defense.
- [09:24]
Daniel Silverberg
Christiane, I have to tell you, I think that There were heads spinning on Capitol Hill, where I worked for 14 years, from President Trump's statement, both among Democrats and Republicans. Look, people like me spent years putting in place a highly rigorous sanctions regime. We went product by product, trying to go after every avenue by which this regime could fund its nuclear program, its missile program and its proxy program. To suddenly hear the president say, well, missiles aren't an issue, that was startling. And I have to tell you that I think a lot of Republicans who are not going to publicly defy the president are pretty concerned about statements like that. And in one light, the war powers vote that happened last night, I would not read that much into it. Most of the Republicans who joined either are long standing critics of President Trump or are those who are retiring and have already made clear that they're not going to stand with the President. However, behind closed doors, you have a number of hawks on Capitol Hill, on both sides of the aisle, who were uncomfortable with the jcpoa, primarily because it did not include missiles, and, and who are now listening to the President's statements and looking at the breadth of sanctions relief that the President provided on Monday through waiving sanctions on Iran's ability to sell oil and in US Dollars, by the way, very significant development. They're looking at that and saying, wait a second, what can we do to potentially reverse this?
- [11:04]
Christiana Amanpour
So that has always been their role. I mean, that's always, or rather their position. All the hawks have always believed that. And in fact, so has perhaps Prime Minister Netanyahu. Even after the Obama JCPOA comes to Congress, hosted by Republicans and basically blasts the jcpoa, convinces Trump to pull out of the jcpoa, and here we are all over again. But, Mehran Kamrava, from your perspective and vantage point, do you think everything Daniel just talked about, all the realities in the MoU, that Iran is being brought back essentially into the oil export business, into the financial world using dollars and having access to dollars and this and that. Is the Gulf region, do you think, ready to reintegrate Iran into the global economy? The global security picture, do they think that will be better for.
- [12:05]
Mehran Kamrava
Absolutely. Look, this war demonstrated that the Islamic Republic can withstand being literally beaten up and having its leadership decapitated by two nuclear powers, the United States and Israel, and still survive. And so the states here in the GCC and many even in the United States are fully aware that the Islamic Republic isn't collapsed, missing, it's not going anywhere. And so you might as well deal with it. And the issue of missiles from Tehran's perspective, missile defense was the only thing that Tehran had. And giving away or giving up missile defense or the missile program for them would be tantamount to capitulation, which the government would never do. So there's this awareness that you might as well deal with the Islamic Republic, engage with them conditionally so that you reward good behavior as opposed to either try and destroy them or kind of wish them away, which they have proven that they're not going to do.
- [13:27]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah. And that's, of course, been the backbone of all Western and regional policy for the last 46 years of, you know, since the Islamic Republic. Do you how do you read then, the apparently the Saudi initiative tothey plan, apparently to host separate reconciliation talks between Iran and the Persian Gulf states is this sort of a demonstration of an acceptance of a fait accompli? And how do you think that will go? Because, let's face it, missiles and drones really, really wreaked havoc on the Gulf Arab states, on the American bases there. So, Mehran, before I ask Daniel about it, what do you think of the Saudi move?
- [14:11]
Mehran Kamrava
The Iranians are keenly aware that they have a lot of damage control to do, that whatever diplomatic inroads they had made after 2020, 2021, and whatever goodwill they had accumulated has or dissipated during this war. And they would certainly welcome that. And I think Saudi Arabia is acting like the statesman that Qatar has been acting, and Oman, in terms of trying to foster good neighborly relations, because again, there's this awareness that they're all cursed or blessed by geography to be neighbors and none of them is going away, so they might as well learn to live with one another.
- [14:58]
Christiana Amanpour
And Daniel, how do you see that then? The whole idea that clearly the Gulf states are now okay, we're in a post war situation, hope and all of these decades of policy have in one fell swoop, from their perspective, maybe even from the American perspective, has failed. It's been a geostrategic failure. That's what the analysts are basically saying. And now maybe it's time to try something else. How will the United States cope or will it lead a reintegration of Iran as a way to build more security from Iran?
- [15:34]
Daniel Silverberg
Christiane, I think we are years away from that question of reintegrating Iran into anything. If you look back at precedents from 2016, when we had clarity on what the way forward was, we had the jcpoa. Even then, Iran could not integrate itself into the global economic market, primarily because of its own problems, a sclerotic financial system, corruption, IRGC Government mismanagement of key parts of the economy. So there are internal factors here to Iran that make it almost irrelevant to be talking about its integration just yet. I might take a more jaundiced view of how our Gulf partners are viewing the current situation. I think that they're a little bit frenetic of sorts, the way that US Decision makers are. In one light, I agree with the premise. They want to make peace with Iran. They want stability in the region. Simultaneously, they are deeply concerned that we are in a place where the United States could allow Iran to have billions of dollars of billions of dollars of funding at its disposal and the latitude to move its own ships through the Strait of Hormuz while uae, Qatar and Saudi are unable to do so. That would be remarkably damaging to them. So what I'm hearing from friends in the region, from senior leaders, is we didn't want this war, but now that President Trump has put us in this position, he better solve it. He better find a way to make sure we are not left holding the bag of this agreement. And I have to think, President, excuse me, Vice Secretary of State Rubio, that is the message that he's delivering saying, we have your back. We will take care of you here. And in my view, there's probably no one better in the Trump administration to deliver that message.
- [17:28]
Christiana Amanpour
Yeah, but who's going to be holding the bag for the $300 billion, you know, reconstruction fund that that is in the MOU?
- [17:37]
Daniel Silverberg
I think that's to be determined. The MOU, again, was just a very basic page and a half framework to get the straight open, not much more than that. And in one light, I think our Gulf partners, they might be willing to fund it because they don't want Iran lobbing missiles at them. But simultaneously, to really put $300 billion in Iran's hands, they need to have reassurance almost exclusively from the United States that Iran is not going to be using that money or its power to wreak havoc on their economies, to launch missiles and to threaten civilians in their territory.
- [18:15]
Christiana Amanpour
Well, let's talk about the civilians with Mehran, because that is clearly not part of the mou. I assume everybody would wish that the Iranian reg regime would not, you know, crack down, you know, full scale shootings and killings of thousands of people as they did in January. But that's not written there and it is apparent that. And you tell me, but it seems the hardliners in Iran have been empowered. They might not be doing the face to face negotiations, but the IRGC has been very heavily empowered, very, you know, heavily consolidated in their positions. So where do you think Mehran is going to lead domestically? What will the power framework look like and what will it mean for the Iranian people?
- [19:02]
Mehran Kamrava
What we're witnessing and what we're hearing from political leaders in Tehran is there's, there's emphasis, renewed emphasis on the economy. And yes, you're absolutely right that we have a new generation of political leaders who are much more security oriented. They're far less interested in the trappings of democracy that previous generations at least paid lip service to. But they're also keenly aware that they need to deliver on the economy or they'll be in serious trouble. And so what we're likely to see moving forward is a generation of security oriented, repressive and intolerant technocrats and professionals who are determined to deliver on some of the economic promises that the middle class expected that they deliver on. But of course, in the process, I think the Iranian government will do away with any semblance of political openness or political participation that at some point in the past it paid lip service to.
- [20:27]
Christiana Amanpour
Well, this story is still being written. Mehran Kamrava and Daniel Silverberg, thank you both very much for joining me on this and stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the.
- [20:46]
Daniel Silverberg
Finding a source you can trust for weather forecasts should be easy, right? This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Check your daily forecast to plan your day, the weekly forecast to see what's on the way and prepare for any major storm with our robust real time video coverage. The app is stunning. And if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in depth stories
- [21:10]
Michael Ian Black
and the photo of the day.
- [21:12]
Daniel Silverberg
Download the CNN weather app on iOS today tab. I GOT News for your ears, the podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black.
- [21:21]
Michael Ian Black
Shall we see what's in the news?
- [21:23]
Jim Biederman
Oh, yes, sitting in for Michael Ian Black this week, it's me, Jim Biederman.
- [21:26]
Christiana Amanpour
On today's show, we talk about the
- [21:28]
Michael Ian Black
Reflecting Pool disaster, the Iranian negotiations, and probably the most important story of the
- [21:32]
Jim Biederman
week, all you can eat shrimp.
- [21:34]
Mehran Kamrava
It's such a great week.
- [21:36]
Daniel Silverberg
Have I got news for your ears. Check us out on Apple, Amazon Music,
- [21:40]
Michael Ian Black
wherever you get your podcast. Even better, you can watch the Vodcast on Spotify.
- [21:51]
Christiana Amanpour
Meantime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejects the Lebanon part of the Iran U. S MOU as negotiators from both those sides meet for a fifth round of talks today to finally end the War that has ravaged Lebanon. Lebanon is demanding a full IDF withdrawal. But with Israeli elections later this year and questions about Netanyahu's re election prospects, a new party is hoping to play a role in the future of the country. It's called A Place for all of Us. It's evenly split between Arab and Jewish Israelis. And it's the brainchild of Alan Lee Green and Rula Daoud, who also co founded Standing Together, a grassroots group that has spent years working towards peaceful coexistence. And they're joining me now from Tel Aviv. So welcome to the program. We always like to talk to people from different sides who are, you know, who have a joint project of coexistence. So this is a very, very hard time to be a politician and to run for elections in Israel. What do you think both of you, your party can bring, you know, in terms of, well, what do you think it can bring to this election? Can you really unseat the party of Benjamin Netanyahu and his coalition?
- [23:09]
Rula Daoud
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for having us again. But this time as running as a new party, a split and equal party of both Jews and Arab citizens of Israel, I think what we see, we understand that our lives, the politics inside of Israel is at a time where it needs brave people and brave politics, especially after October 7th. We need a party that understands and demands that our partnership will not be just in the field, but also in the Knesset. And we need a party that understands that the future of the people, Lebanon here, cannot be a future filled with more wars. We need a party that demands an end to the occupation, Israeli Palestinian peace, but also equality for the people living inside of Israel. And this is our party, a place for us all, is a party that brings that voice and it brings us, brings it from the field. We are people who have been demonstrating, going out to the streets for the last 10 years on various struggles. And we hear our people and we see the hunger in the eyes of our people. And we understand that it is time to challenge the old politics that we have by politics of real partnership in the Knesset.
- [24:25]
Christiana Amanpour
So, Alan Lee, you said the Jewish Arab. Yeah, go ahead.
- [24:30]
Alon Lee Green
I do believe that this is actually the most strategic way to replace Netanyahu and to remove Netanyahu. Because some parties in opposition to Netanyahu today believe that only the Jewish citizens that resist Netanyahu can somehow have the numbers to remove Netanyahu. They are wrong, of course. Also the Palestinian minority In Israel, the 2 million citizens that are Palestinian citizens, they cannot remove Netanyahu. And Ben GVIR and Smotrich alone. So we know that the only way to do it is by Jewish Arab partnership, by mobilizing all the Jews and all the Palestinians within the Israeli citizenship that have the interest to have a different kind of reality in Israel after the bloodiest three years in our history, where 20,000 children in Gaza have been killed. But also the Israeli people pay the price, of course, if there are Palestinian Israelis, but also if they're Jewish Israelis. So we believe we can find common interest of both Palestinian Israelis and Jewish Israelis to remove Netanyahu, but to do it from a shared home, which is a place for us all, a joint party.
- [25:37]
Christiana Amanpour
So just to be clear, standing together is the grassroots group that you guys, you know, certainly Ruler co founded it, and you are sort of suspending your participation in that for the moment while you become active politicians running for the Knesset. So you're now a political group. What is it that you think you can do with this Jewish and Arab coalition to counter what appears to be the majority of the Israelis right now who believe that these wars, for instance, need to continue?
- [26:13]
Rula Daoud
Well, I think if you ask people in Israel on what they want and what they demand, they will tell you that they want peace. They want a reality where there is no more wars. And it's becoming more clear for people, especially after the war with Iran. And this is a reality that doesn't need to be a fantasy. It's something that needs to be asked and done in the Knesset. We need Knesset members who are willing and not afraid to demand and to put on the table another political idea, which is an idea, you know, of peace, of Israeli Palestinian peace. And this is what we will bring in. Because when we look at the parties that we have right now, whether the Arab Je, Jewish Party especially, you know, what we have today as a left center, we don't see any of them speaking about the future of the people living in here and what will become of it. Everybody speaks about ruling the other, of not dealing with the issues of occupation and what will happen to the west bank, what will happen to Gaza. And by not dealing with these issues, nothing will really change in our politics. So we are here to speak and to talk about the future and the alternative of people and to fight for it, not just in the streets, but also in the Knesset. And this is a future of peace for two people and independence for two people.
- [27:35]
Christiana Amanpour
So, Alon Lee, let me ask you again some statistics, because certainly majorities of Israelis and to an extent Palestinians, particularly those in the occupied territories and in Gaza are losing, categorically losing hope in a two state solution. Look, fewer than one in five Israelis think that it's even possible, according to a recent Pew poll. How are you going to emerge, Alon Lee, as a party from that kind of feeling and that kind of isolation of the peace camp?
- [28:11]
Alon Lee Green
We believe strongly that the leadership is lacking. Because if you as a voter,
- [28:20]
Jim Biederman
if
- [28:20]
Alon Lee Green
you are an Israeli voter and you listen to your leaders, even in the opposition, what you hear is this is not the time to speak about peace, that maybe after a few years we'll start solving the occupation or we will talk about what to do with the Palestinians. And if the leadership cannot bring these ideas of solutions to the table, then people themselves do not hear it. And then they become very used to the idea that there is no solution and there is no issue even. And we need to wake up and we need to speak with every possible Israeli to say there is an issue and the issue is occupation. The issue is millions of people that are being ruled by our army without being the citizens of Israel. The issue is that the Israelis themselves are also afraid. The issue is having missiles flying above our heads and killing Israeli citizens. The issue is sending our soldiers to Lebanon again to kill 3,000 Lebanese and to, to come back in a coffin. If you're a soldier, 36 soldiers have died in the last few months. These are issues. And if our political leaderships will not speak about these issues, then the public will never know that this is an issue that can be solved. It will be like the weather for them. So we're here to say that this is not the weather. Occupation is not something that is from God. The occupation is man made and we can end the occupation and we can achieve peace. And for that we need a party that speaks about peace and speaks about the occupation and is not afraid from its own shadow, you know, because it's possible. It's possible to fight against occupation. It's possible to fight for peace.
- [29:58]
Christiana Amanpour
Let me ask you about more domestic issues. I know this is obviously a big domestic issue, peace, but internal sort of Israeli politics as we've been watching it, you know, certainly before October 7th, you had those and you yourself, you were part of the protest movement against Netanyahu's attempt to at what he called judicial reforms. Basically, you know, it was a take back democracy movement. Where does that stand right now? Are protesters still in the streets? Is that domestic issue still something that is, you know, really important to people?
- [30:35]
Rula Daoud
Yeah. Well, if you look right now in each and every weekend, there is still Demonstration. You hear a lot of voices right now within the Israeli public, whether you're a Jewish or a Palestinian citizen of Israel, that speaks about the fact that we cannot live, you know, another election where Bibi will be the prime minister, especially I think, for minorities, for Palestinian, the 20% Palestinian in here, when having Benvir and Smotrich and Netanyahu, the policy towards us is a very different policy. But what we demand, what we want, what we see that needs to be happening and we will bring to the as a party is not just, you know, to put Netanyahu outside of the Knesset and Ben and Kosmotrip, but it's also to bring different politics, a politics that stands against the right wing, the right wing that we have in this government. And if the question, you know, when we look at it right now at different parties and which kind, what kind of parties also do you see in the next, you know, after this next elections, I think what the main purpose for all of us, most of us, is to really out throw Bib Netanyahu, but also to understand that new politics of real partnership of Arab citizens being in the Knesset is very much needed in order to have a real change within Israeli politics.
- [32:04]
Christiana Amanpour
And just let me ask you, Alon Lee, because now you're a political party and you're to the left right, and you can see that there are certain criticisms. For instance, Haaretz has said, you know, standing together party is the last thing the Israeli left needs. They're basically arguing that a division of the left could empower and play into Netanyahu's advantage, that if you don't meet an electoral threshold of 3%, if you fail to enter the Knesset, then your votes are wasted, et cetera. Let me just read this from Kumi Israel, another pro democracy group. Lately we're witnessing a disturbing phenomenon of the establishment of small parties and fragments of parties, most of which have no real chance of passing the electoral threshold. Important to state the obvious, in such fateful elections, there is no room for political adventures. This is a matter of irresponsibility. What do you say to that, Alan Lee?
- [33:02]
Alon Lee Green
We've addressed very seriously in Arabic and in Hebrew, the question of wasting votes and not meeting the threshold. We've already declared that we will be a responsible force that will not waste any vote. But to answer the question, I think it will be irresponsible not to bring voters around the question of peace. It will be irresponsible not to create Jewish partnership after October 7th. It will be irresponsible to let these first elections after October 7th to be just about the question, Netanyahu or not Netanyahu, and not about occupation, Palestinians, Israelis and our future in this land.
- [33:42]
Christiana Amanpour
All right, listen, thank you both very much indeed for telling us about your new party. Alan Lee and Rula, thanks so much. And we'll be right back after this short break.
- [33:58]
Michael Ian Black
Craig Ferguson is going coast to coast to unpack what it really means to be an American today.
- [34:02]
Walter Isaacson
What could possibly go wrong?
- [34:03]
Christiana Amanpour
CRAIG ferguson, American on purpose.
- [34:06]
Michael Ian Black
New episodes now streaming on the CNN app. Go to CNN.com watch to subscribe or log in with your TV provider. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.
- [34:17]
Mehran Kamrava
Dr. Darby Saxby is a psychologist at USC who has been researching what happens
- [34:23]
Michael Ian Black
to men as they become dads.
- [34:26]
Mehran Kamrava
How do their brains change?
- [34:27]
Michael Ian Black
How do their hormones change?
- [34:29]
Mehran Kamrava
What happens to their mental health and
- [34:31]
Michael Ian Black
to their other relationships? Men are built with the brain architecture
- [34:36]
Rula Daoud
that can adapt to parenthood.
- [34:39]
Michael Ian Black
I think of caring and parenting not
- [34:42]
Rula Daoud
just as traits that you're born either
- [34:44]
Michael Ian Black
being good at or not, but as
- [34:46]
Rula Daoud
skills that you can hone through time and repetition and practice.
- [34:51]
Michael Ian Black
And so women are really socialized to expect to occupy a primary parenting role.
- [34:57]
Rula Daoud
And we don't necessarily raise our boys with that objective in mind.
- [35:02]
Michael Ian Black
Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:11]
Christiana Amanpour
Let's turn and check in now with what's happening in Cuba, where its once robust tourism industry has been gutted by US Sanctions and an oil blockade. As the Trump administration tries pressuring the Cuban government, the sharp decline in visitors has wiped out a key source of revenue for Cuba's hospitality workers. Now many residents fear even harder times ahead. Here's correspondent Patrick Ottman in Havana.
- [35:38]
Jim Biederman
You can look for tourists in Cuba, but good luck finding any these days. The colonial streets in plazas and old Havana, one of the island's main attractions for foreign visitors, are strikingly empty. Cuba's tourism sector is enduring the worst moment in years, if not decades. We've come to an area that should be absolutely full of tourists to see how bad it's gotten. Rolando is trying to promote the restaurant where he works, but there's hardly anyone to make his pitch to. You don't see any tourists?
- [36:10]
Daniel Silverberg
Maybe in this moment 10%, 10% tourists in this square that is the best
- [36:18]
Rula Daoud
square is Plaza Vieja, the other square in Havana. Maybe 10% is nothing.
- [36:27]
Jim Biederman
The oil blockade placed by the Trump administration on Cuba earlier this year has contributed to rolling blackouts and a scarcity of jet fuel for airlines carrying tourists from Europe or Canada, which have cancelled flights. Threats of increased US economic sanctions on international hotel chains is forcing many companies to abandon the island and removed the brands off hotels they used to manage for the Cuban government. According to official statistics, only 360,000 tourists visited the island in the first five months of 2026, a more than 58% drop from the previous year. The Trump administration says it is pressuring the island's communist rulers to open the tightly controlled economy and political system. But people like Elio and Andre, who have been playing traditional Cuban music on the street corner for nearly 30 years, are among those feeling the squeeze when we meet them. The guitar duo had earned less than a dollar in tips that day. They told me the economy has never been this bad, even during the pandemic. There are no tourists. Elio says. Maybe they're at home. One comes by only every half hour or hour. Even the famed Hemingway Trail, the bars where the American writer drank his way across Havana, has gone cold. This is one of the most famous bars in Havana. You can see Hemingway's signature there on the wall. This is one of the many places he drank. He said he came here for his mojito. I've never been able to come here without there being just a crowd of tourists. We're the first customers of the day. It's a tourist trap without any tourists. For the first time, Cuban officials say they may allow Cuban exiles or Cubans still living on the island to manage hotels. But full ownership, so far at least, is still not permitted. The collapse of the tourism economy is a disaster for a government that spent years pouring scant resources into building hotels. This is not only Cuba's largest hotel, it's the tallest building on this island. This is one of the most expensive things this government here has ever built. Architects who worked on this project told me it cost more than $200 million to build this hotel, which is now empty and closed. Still, construction continues on even more hotels that are unlikely to see paying customers anytime soon. Cubans who work in tourism are trying anything to make ends meet. Alexander tells us he lowered prices to take a carriage ride with his horse, Napoleon, so the Cubans could afford a city tour. He still barely makes enough money to pay for his government license to work as a guide. More reforms urgently need to take place.
- [39:23]
Daniel Silverberg
If we don't change, our system, if
- [39:26]
Walter Isaacson
we don't change, or economic model will
- [39:30]
Michael Ian Black
never survive like a human being.
- [39:33]
Daniel Silverberg
Every day, daily, there are problems and problems and problems.
- [39:36]
Michael Ian Black
And if we don't solve, if we
- [39:37]
Mehran Kamrava
don't change those things, you will never have a real future.
- [39:41]
Jim Biederman
Cuba's tourism industry has already collapsed under increased U.S. pressure. Now the fear is the rest of the island's teetering economy could soon follow. Patrick Ottman, cnn, Havana.
- [39:56]
Christiana Amanpour
It is really eerie to see that now we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. Maybe this time of year they would say all people. These are some of the best known words in American history. And our next guest argues that the Declaration of Independence remains a unifying touchstone. Michael Oslin is the author of National Treasure and a fellow at the Hoover Institution, and he joins Walter Isaacson to explain.
- [40:24]
Walter Isaacson
Thank you, Chris. John and Michael Oslin, welcome to the show.
- [40:28]
Michael Ian Black
Thank you for having me.
- [40:29]
Walter Isaacson
Walter, you have this great book, National Treasure, which traces the Declaration of Independence. Even the parchment copy of it, and I want to quote a line that you say, which is our founding document, remains a powerful statement of unity as much today as 250 years ago. Hey, we're about to celebrate our 250th. We're not very united. How can this document help us reunite?
- [40:57]
Michael Ian Black
Well, I think that is the greatness of the Declaration over our history is that at multiple moments where we seemed deeply divided and often were deeply divided, people kept returning to it. They returned to it for a couple of reasons. One is that it gave this vision of the type of future, the type of country that they wanted to live in. Second, they would look back at times of division to what seemed to be a time of more unity, meaning 1776, when patriots across these very, very different and often divided colonies came together and they tried to recapture that. Third, because I still believe, Walter, and I want to believe that the vast majority of Americans really are still united, that we have very powerful and strong and often angry voices on both the right and the left. But the vast majority of still, like our neighbors, talk to our neighbors, go about our daily business. And when they do that, the document is one that often appeals to them as being this. This constant in their lives. So I think that, you know, we can certainly talk about how the right, how the signers wrote the Declaration to stress unity, but I think what it has become over our 250 years is the touchstone. It's not the document we argue over, like the Constitution. It's the document that tells us how we should want to. To live together.
- [42:20]
Walter Isaacson
You talk about it being an aspirational document because all men were not considered created equal in the original colonies and the new nation. And yet it becomes a forcing mechanism. Lincoln four scoring seven years later invokes it as he's burying 7,058 people at Gettysburg for making the sentence more true. And the women at Seneca Falls Declaration invoke this sentence. So is that. And part of what makes this document important is that it becomes our mission statement.
- [42:55]
Michael Ian Black
Absolutely. And I think it is the greatness of the Declaration that allows it to fill those 18th century silences later on. It's why David Walker, the great black abolitionist, can appeal to the Declaration saying, you and your fathers have not lived up to it. It's why Frederick Douglass can appeal to it in his famous what to the slave is the 4th of July? Where he says, but I do not, I not despair because of the Declaration. As you mentioned, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, and by the way, millions upon millions of immigrants from non western, what we would consider Western, non liberal nations, non democratic nations who embrace this document and translate it for themselves, which I try to show in the book, to make it their new birth certificate. The document appeals to all of these people, again, to this point of unity. They're not asking for special treatment. They're asking for regular treatment. They want to be treated fully as Americans, like every other American. They want to be fully part of the country and not to carve off enclaves of any kind. That's why I think it is the great unity document. They understood that. That's why they appealed to it. They could have just appealed to the Constitution, said, well, this is illegal. But no, they appealed to the spirit within the Declaration to say, we want to be fully American like the rest of you. That's why I think it has carried through so strongly through the 19th and 20th centuries, through the civil rights movement up to today.
- [44:28]
Walter Isaacson
It's carried through very strongly, but originally it wasn't considered that big of a deal. In fact, of course, famously, John Adams thinks July 2nd will be our birthday. That's when we voted for independence. Other than George Washington having his lieutenants read it in Battery park to his troops is not celebrated across the colonies. How did it become such an important and celebrated document?
- [44:54]
Michael Ian Black
Well, it is right in the very first readings, of course. July 4th, John Dunlap is given an order to print up broadsides. There's only 26 of those left. John Hancock then sends them around the colonies. Now the states, and we do have records of it being read, of course. Philadelphia, July 8th, as you mentioned, George Washington, General Washington reads it to the troops on July 9th. It's read in Boston, it's read up in New Hampshire. It makes its way down Takes a while, obviously, to get all the way through the colonies. Savannah doesn't get it until middle of August. And then they finally can hear that they're a new nation. And we have these accounts, Abigail Adams writes John, of what happens in Boston, where everyone gets so excited, they throw down the arms of the king on the old State House and trample it into the dust and burn it. But you're right after that. But it's done its job and it's printed. It's printed in broadsides. It's printed in the newspapers. You don't have to keep telling people they're independent. They know. And so there's other stuff to do. You have to win the war. You have to figure out how you're gonna live together as a nation. So the Declaration does actually get forgotten for decades. And while Americans celebrate independence, they don't really often reference the Declaration. And interestingly, because of that, Thomas Jefferson actually isn't trying to claim credit for the authorship. John Adams isn't disputing with him who's more important to independence, because the issue only develops later. And really, where the Declaration takes off is after the War of 1812, after the British burn Washington. And the parchment Declaration, which almost no Americans knew existed because it was a paper of state kept rolled up. And, you know, among the other papers of state, the story gets out that by the skin of its teeth, this document is spirited out of Washington, carried into the Virginia countryside, and saved. When the White House and the Capitol and the State Department are burned and Americans say, that's great. And they go, what was saved? They didn't know it existed, so now they want to see it. And so a number of things happen right at this moment. First of all, a couple of very entrepreneurial calligraphers, essentially, and artists create what we consider artistic reproductions of the Declaration. And for the first time, they very carefully and faithfully trace the signatures. This fascinates Americans. They'd never seen the signatures. So suddenly you're seeing John Hancock and Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. And these things sell very well. They're sold by subscriptions. You have John Trumbull come out with his famous portrait in the Capitol, which is not the signing of the declaration. It's not July 4th, it's the presentation of the draft to Congress. But Americans embrace this as the moment of birth, and they celebrate thousands and thousands of copies. John Quincy Adams, Secretary of State, has a faithful facsimile. The one you see over my shoulder in the middle there, reproduced, it's called the Stone engraving to make it the iconic image so that Americans, even as the document itself is fading, can see it in all of its glory. And then, I think very importantly, on July 4, 1821, the 45th anniversary of independence, John Quincy Adams brings the original parchment to the Capitol, reads it in front of a crowd of thousands, and then he gives his famous we go not abroad in search of monsters to destroy speech, but the other part of the speech that people don't pay attention to is that for the first time at a truly senior level, a high level, he links the Declaration to our constitutional order. What had been forgotten, what had been seen simply as a legal document, an instrument announcing our independence, now becomes the wellspring of our self understanding as a nation that had first of all triumphed against Britain for the second time in a generation and now was dramatically growing and expanding across the West. This is where I think it begins to take on that new life, that life that ultimately, as you mentioned before, reaches its apotheosis with Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.
- [49:00]
Walter Isaacson
You talk about the 45th anniversary, John Quincy Adams making this sort of a national document. And what really amuses me, perhaps shouldn't, is that suddenly there becomes a tension between John Quincy Adams, father, John Adams, who's still alive, and Thomas Jefferson. They both end up dying the same day, the 50th anniversary, and yet they're disputing between then who was more important in Adams, diminishing what Jefferson had done.
- [49:31]
Michael Ian Black
Absolutely. And I think that is precisely reveals how important the Declaration had become to the American people by the fourth, fifth decade of our existence. That what had again been seen as something that did its job on one day in July of 1776 now defined us as a people. And that that greatest sentence was beginning to gain purchase not everywhere in the nation, but in many of the quarters, to say, this is who we are.
- [50:03]
Walter Isaacson
The museum and center of former President Barack Obama opened in Chicago in the past week, and the exhibit begins with a Declaration of Independence. What do you make of that?
- [50:20]
Michael Ian Black
I haven't been there yet since it just opened, and I think it's perfectly appropriate and I think it should in many ways. And in fact, I think it's actually surprising that no president until President Trump put a copy of the Declaration in the Oval Office. It is that birthright that I think every president, they swear to uphold the Constitution and defend the Constitution, but what they're really doing is defending the spirit of the Declaration, because it's the spirit of the Declaration that infuses the Constitution and of Course, the Bill of Rights, and I think was very well understood at the time.
- [51:00]
Walter Isaacson
You have a theory in your book that I love, which is that the importance of the Declaration rises over time partly because of immigration. And that in some ways the fact that we become a nation of diverse immigrants, as opposed to a nation of blood and soil and heritage of the land, makes us a nation based on a creed, which makes this Declaration more important. Nowadays, at our 250th, we're kind of having this debate over whether we're a nation based on a creed that we all accept or are we a nation based on land and heritage? How do you see the Declaration playing into that?
- [51:45]
Michael Ian Black
Absolutely. It is our creed, but I would say the creed is now our heritage. And that I think is the wonderful thing. The immigrant part of the book, and possibly my favorite part of the book, was to show how the Declaration translations of the Declaration ideas of civics. It wasn't imposed top down, let's say, by the Mayflower community. It was embraced by the immigrants themselves. They are translating it into Swedish, into Greek, into Italian, into Yiddish, into Polish, into Russian. They are the ones doing the translations for their own communities to say, you are now here, you are now new. And this is where Thomas Paine was right. They were creating the world new for themselves. You are Americans. This is your birthright, and you have your responsibility. So During World War I, you had this wonderful gathering of basically was immigrants from the different nations created a group to support America in the war, pledging themselves as loyal Americans, saying, this is now our country. Though. Though this country is engaged in a war in the old world which we just left, we, the representatives of the old nations are now Americans and we have our rights and we have our responsibilities to uphold this creed, to defend democracy, defend the idea that in the old country, yes, you were separated by who you were and where you were born in the little town or village that you came from, not here, that here you are part of this great mainstream, what James Trusslow Adams would call that American dream. In 1931, in this period where the country had dramatically changed through immigration, at least 20 million coming in the 40 years from 1880 to 1920, and the foreign born population being at least 15%, but in some places, like Cincinnati, it's upwards of 60% are German immigrants and other immigrants from Central Europe. They are embracing translating these copies of the Declaration, putting it up on their walls. There's a Hungarian traveler who goes through the United states in the 1830s and he said, I never went to an inn, a motel, an inn inside of America where I didn't see a copy of the Declaration on the wall. It was always there next to the Bible. This became the defining statement of who we were in a civic polity and the immigrants adopted it as much if not more than what some would today call the heritage Americans. But that creed has become our heritage and I think that is exactly right. And it's why each of us still, I feel, you know, should pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor in this community. We live here together.
- [54:47]
Walter Isaacson
Michael Osman, thank you so much for joining us.
- [54:49]
Michael Ian Black
Thank you, Walter.
- [54:53]
Christiana Amanpour
That's it for now. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
- [55:00]
Michael Ian Black
From the descendants of history makers involved in the Louisiana Purchase to the Lewis and Clark expedition, discover the untold stories of American expansion in the CNN original series this Land now streaming on the CNN app.