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- [00:01]
Bianna Golodryga
Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:38]
David A. Graham
I have called and conceded the race.
- [00:40]
Mikhail Fishman
We've been honorable the whole time and we're going to stay that way.
- [00:45]
Bianna Golodryga
Trump tightens his grip on the Republican Party as his picks win key primaries. What does it mean for the midterms and the future of the gop? Journalist David Graham joins me then.
- [00:58]
Hari Sreenivasan
Today, our relations have reached an unprecedented
- [01:01]
Mikhail Fishman
high level, serving as a model of
- [01:04]
Hari Sreenivasan
comprehensive partnership and strategic interaction.
- [01:07]
Bianna Golodryga
Putin visits Beijing, but is he on the back foot in Ukraine? I speak to exiled Russian journalist Mikhail Fishman, author of the new book the Successor. Also ahead, the men who want women to be quiet. Hari Srinivasan speaks with the Atlantic's head Helen Lewis about how the Christian right, the manosphere and maga have formed a powerful new coalition against feminism. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Biannica Aldriga, New York City in for Christian Amanpour. Donald Trump's hold on the Republican Party appears as strong as ever. In primaries held this week, Trump backed candidates advanced in Georgia, Alabama and Kentucky, a show of force that comes despite the president's weak polling, growing concerns about the midterms, and questions about whether Republicans will lose control of Congress. Perhaps the most striking example, Congressman Thomas Massie, once an ally and more recently a critic of the president on issues ranging from the Epstein files to Israel and Iran. Massie lost to retired Navy SEAL El Galrain, who says that he'll be loyal to the president's agenda.
- [02:36]
Mikhail Fishman
I want to thank President Trump for his support,
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David A. Graham
his endorsement and his counsel
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Mikhail Fishman
as I navigated this campaign, which is
- [02:49]
David A. Graham
a journey of unto itself.
- [02:52]
Mikhail Fishman
And for his courageous leadership of our
- [02:54]
David A. Graham
nation at this critical time, I want to emphasize at this critical time and juncture in history. Thank you, Mr. President.
- [03:05]
Bianna Golodryga
And Massie wasn't alone. Other Republicans who sought to stay in Trump's good graces have also found themselves on shakier ground politically, like Texas Senator John Cornyn. I On Tuesday, Trump chose to endorse the controversial Attorney General Ken Paxton over Cornyn in the Texas Senate race, with the primary runoff vote happening next week. So what does this moment tell us about the future of the GOP and the upcoming midterms? Joining me now is journalist David A. Graham, the author of the Project examining how Project 2025 is reshaping America. David, welcome to the program. So, as we just listed there, from Thomas Massie in Kentucky to Brad Raffensperger in Georgia, Bill Cassidy in Louisian to five state senators in Indiana, they all crossed Donald Trump, and this week they all lost. So is it now an established fact of life that at least within the GOP party, if you cross Trump, you lose politically?
- [04:04]
David A. Graham
That does seem to be the case. We've seen an impressive kind of revenge spree from Trump on these things, all of these candidates who have crossed and have lost. And you look at somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who wasn't up for reelection, but who he basically pushed out of the party and out of Congress, we can see now. So he does seem to retain a very firm grip on what goes on inside the Republican Party.
- [04:26]
Bianna Golodryga
And Donald Trump just endorsed Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton for Senate in Texas over incumbent John Cornyn, which was rather a surprise because most of the party establishment believed that that endorsement would come in Cornyn's favor. He is someone who's boasted of voting alongside Trump 99% of the time. Paxton BR brings a long history of scandals. He is quite controversial. There are fraud allegations as well. And this is what Trump said of Cornyn. He said he was not supportive of me when times were tough. So is this the president putting a safe Republican seat now in jeopardy just to settle a score?
- [05:08]
David A. Graham
I think there's a couple things going on here. I mean, it's clear that despite Cornyn's record, he has been maybe a less enthusiastic Trump backer. Even when he's voted for Trump, he doesn't seem like he's really. He's really in on it in the way that Ken Paxton is. I also think, though, there is a little bit of a sign of Trump's weakness here. You know, when this primary, when it went to runoff, it was expected that Trump would endorse Cornyn. There were lots of reports to those effects. And then Trump dithered. And one reason he dithered, I think, is he was afraid of backing a loser. And then we started seeing polls showing Paxton up, and in fact, polls showing that even if Trump endorsed Cornyn, Paxton would win. And so in this case, I think Trump is following his voters a little bit and trying to sort of retroactively make himself into somebody who's on the right side of the coming primary.
- [05:55]
Bianna Golodryga
So given the dynamics now in Texas, many in the party establishment had viewed Cornyn as the favored to beat James Talarico, who's a rising Democratic state, a congressman in the state. There are no illusions that Texas is about to turn blue. But we've been here before with previous runoffs that have been rather close and questions about whether Texas was at least borderline purple. Does this make that likelihood that much more possible given that Cornyn? I mean, we'll see what happens next week. But if he's expected to lose and you do see someone like Ken Paxton going up against Talarico, does that up the odds for Talarico?
- [06:44]
David A. Graham
I think Democrats are much more optimistic about the possibility of beating Paxton than they are Cornyn. You know, Cornyn has a long history of winning in Texas. He's been the senator for a long time. Paxton is so scandal plagued. You know, he had this messy divorce from his wife. There was a failed impeachment. A very closely failed impeachment over many allegations of impropriety coming from other Republicans was an impeachment effort led by Republicans. So although voters in Texas seem to like Paxton or Republican voters, there's clearly a lot of he's a very flawed candidate. And so I do think it makes it much more likely Democrats could contend or perhaps even win. And given how much difference one seat could make in the midterms in the Senate, I think you'll see Democrats putting a lot of money into that race. And whether Republicans are going to have the same stomach to back Paxton, I think is an interesting question, one we'll have to be watching.
- [07:35]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. And at the very least, Republicans will have to put much more money in this race where they weren't expecting to, assuming that Cornyn would win in the primary and obviously would get the president's endorsement. Let's talk more about what happened in Kentucky and the race against Thomas Massie. That was the most expensive House primary campaign ever, totaling some $33 million, including some 9 million from AIPAC alone and other pro Israel groups. Massie seemed to nod to this in what was the opposite of a gracious concession. Listen to what he said.
- [08:12]
Mikhail Fishman
Listen. I would have come out sooner, but I had to call my opponent and
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David A. Graham
concede, and it took a while to
- [08:21]
Mikhail Fishman
find Ed Gowran in Tel Aviv.
- [08:28]
Bianna Golodryga
So aside from that blatant anti Semitic trope, how much of Massie's loss do you think was attributed to AIPAC's funding here? Or were there other issues Given his concerns over the lack of focus and the lack of attention that the Democrat, that the Republican Party and the president himself were giving to the Epstein files, and obviously the economy and the war in Iran.
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David A. Graham
Look, I think funding against Massie certainly didn't help him, but I think this fundamentally comes down to his feud with Trump. Massie has always been a very heterodox Republican. You know, he's sort of libertarian. These eccentric views and sometimes eccentric ways of expressing them. And he's still been elected seven times in that district. So the fact that he lost here, I think, comes down essentially to him crossing Trump. And that is on the question of backing Israel in the war with Iran. It is on the Epstein files. You know, these are, again, these are places where we have seen Massie be consistent over the years. And what has changed is the willingness of Trump and people working with Trump to really put a concerted effort into knocking him out.
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Bianna Golodryga
So, again, if Trump had. If he had won Trump's endorsement, then are you suggesting he likely would have won this race?
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David A. Graham
I think there wouldn't be a race. I mean, Ed Gellrain was basically handpicked by the White House. You know, somebody might have run against him because he is a little bit unusual, but it would not have been this kind of thing. It would have been a rump. And, you know, I think in the past, Massie has courted Trump's endorsement for exactly that reason. He understands that Trump is the king maker in these primaries, and that has. That has worked for him in the past. This time he went too far to
- [10:12]
Bianna Golodryga
make nice with Trump, and he ran on that, too, as sort of the renegade outlier who was up against Trump on some of these issues. Let's turn to Pennsylvania. We saw a range of Democratic candidates win their primaries across the political spectrum, from far left Chris Robb, to progressive populist Bob Brooks, who's the state's firefighters union president. Looking at these Democratic wins, what was the unifying message here?
- [10:39]
David A. Graham
Well, I think it's really interesting to see these candidates who are backed by really a wide swath of the party. They often have this backing from the left, but they also have backing from people like Josh Shapiro. I think in this election, so much of the midterms is going to be simply about pushing back on Trump. And so in that sense, it's very easy for Democrats to unify. But I think we're starting to see more hints of what a Democratic Party might look like in 2028 and how the party will sort of try to shape itself. When it has to run a more constructive platform than it does in these midterm elections.
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Helen Lewis
Yeah.
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Bianna Golodryga
And Josh Shapiro all along has said that he's not focused on 2028. He's focused on doing his job, serving as governor. But that's not the first time we have heard that line from a potential presidential candidate. And Josh Shapiro himself is actively trying to flip four House seats blue in November as he's running for reelection himself. How much of that is shaping his strategy if, in fact, he were to look ahead to 2028?
- [11:43]
David A. Graham
I think one thing that's interesting about Shapiro is he's not only saying that he's not looking forward to 2028, but there are places where he seems to be pushing against the kind of conventional wisdom in the Democratic Party. And I think that's interesting positioning. You know, what matters, I think, to so many Democrats right now is winning. And they might have favored candidates or favored strains of the party, but what they really want to do is to defeat Trump. And so to. Pierre is able to win and able to carry other candidates along with him. I think that that sets him up at a good place for.
- [12:14]
Bianna Golodryga
And that does appear to be his message, at least. Right. Is focused on the defeat of Trump. How does that align with what has historically been, or at least most recently been, the Democratic strategy in their line describing themselves as a big tent party? Because now we are seeing this sort of back and forth as to whether there's room for some of the more centrist candidates versus some of the more far left progressive candidates who do the Republicans at this point, point see as more of a threat.
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David A. Graham
I think Republicans are worried about somebody like a Josh Shapiro because he, he seems able to appeal to the middle, but they have questions about whether or not he can make it through a Democratic primary. Certainly we saw in 2020, a lot of Democrats felt like they had to run left to try to win the primary. But the person who won, Joe Biden, is the person who didn't really move as far to the left in that primary. So it's a little bit of a paradox there. All of these things, I think, can coexist for now, but it is in a 2028 race where Trump is out of the way and is not the major topic that we're going to see some, I think, messy fights among Democrats, or else we're going to see somebody who's able to come together and kind of synthesize those strains into something that can win.
- [13:30]
Bianna Golodryga
So let's talk about 2026, because there is Also this paradox of Trump showing his strength within the MAGA base within the party, but he's seeing now some of the worst approval ratings in either of his terms at 36%. Obviously you have Americans really concerned about the economy, the direction of the economy here, rising gas prices and obviously an unpopular war in Iran. And I'm wondering how this line from the president, which he seems to be doubling down on, is going to sit with voters going into the midterms.
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Helen Lewis
Let's play it.
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Bianna Golodryga
When you're negotiating with Iran, Mr. President, to what extent are Americans financial situation motivating you to make a deal?
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Mikhail Fishman
Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about America's financial situation. I don't think about anybody.
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Bianna Golodryga
That was May 12th. Just today. He doubled down. When asked a similar question about the state of the economy concerns amongst Americans, he said that's just peanuts compared to what a nuclear capable Iran would look like. How concerned are Republicans with that messaging and are we seeing it help Democrats at all at this point?
- [14:51]
David A. Graham
Well, I think Republicans are besides themselves listening to this and we see Democrats, you know, although very unpopular in their approval, doing well in the generic ballot for the House. And I actually think there's a connection between these sorts of comments and these primary races. I think the irony is that Trump would really benefit from a Republican Congress that was more able and willing to push back on him, that might have restrained him on the Iran war, that might feel like they can challenge these kinds of statements and push him to focus more on these kitchen table issues. But because he, you know, will come down hard on any Republican who crosses him and makes an effort to defeat them in a primary, like Thomas Massie or like John Cornyn, to some extent they're afraid to do that. And so the strength that we see in these primaries I think is also the root of the weakness that we're seeing with the general electorate and that may cause problems for Republicans in November.
- [15:43]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, we have a potential blue wave now crashing into real time gerrymandering. Republican led states are now aggressively redrawing their voting districts following the Supreme Court's weakening of the Voting Rights Act. Which force do you think ultimately will drive voters to the polls in November? The blue wave that Democrats are hoping to anticipate or the Supreme Court tending to seem to help their opponents?
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David A. Graham
Look, the Supreme Court decision and these also redistricting cases in the states are obviously very good for Republicans. But there's only so much they can do. You can draw districts that are helpful, but I think you can only, you know, it's like building a seawall. It will hold back some of a flood, but it can't back hold back all of it. And so that's why I think a lot of the smartest analysts still see Democrats as a favorite, maybe not a favorite to take a huge lead in November, but certainly the favorite to take the House because voter sentiment comes down to these really basic issues. They're upset about the war. They're upset about affordability. And they would like, you know, they don't particularly like the way Trump conducts himself on the job.
- [16:53]
Bianna Golodryga
And so based on the data that we're now seeing from these primaries, what is the one headline that you are anticipating? Listen, anything can happen, especially under a Trump administration. Months feel like years. But from what we're seeing today, how can that reflect upon some of the results we should expect in November?
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David A. Graham
I think what I'd say is that the MAGA base remains very strong. It's not splintering, but it is shrinking. And that's going to be a problem for Republicans. That's why Republicans are, are at a disadvantage in November. They simply don't have as many voters and Trump seems to be driving some of the ones they have away. All right.
- [17:31]
Bianna Golodryga
David A. Graham, always a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [17:37]
David A. Graham
Thank you.
- [17:38]
Bianna Golodryga
And still ahead on Amanpour, how might Russia and Moscow's strongman react? Exile Russian journalist Mikhail Fishman joins me.
- [18:00]
Hari Sreenivasan
Finding a source you can trust for
- [18:02]
Helen Lewis
weather forecasts should be easy, right?
- [18:04]
Hari Sreenivasan
This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app.
- [18:09]
Bianna Golodryga
Check your daily forecast to click Plan
- [18:11]
Hari Sreenivasan
your day the weekly forecast to see what's on the way and prepare for any major storm with our robust real time video coverage.
- [18:19]
Mikhail Fishman
The app is stunning. And if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in depth stories and the photo of the day.
- [18:26]
Hari Sreenivasan
Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.
- [18:30]
Mikhail Fishman
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. He's a two time NBA all star. Isiah thomas. What so impressed me about him is his willingness to speak about loss and his vulnerability. His youngest sister chyna died in 2017 on the eve of the NBA playoffs. I remember just leaving my stuff in the locker room and getting in the
- [18:54]
David A. Graham
car and just crying.
- [18:56]
Mikhail Fishman
It was like the most numb moments I've ever had. Kobe Bryant sent me A long text, but at the end of the text he said, if you are gonna play,
- [19:05]
David A. Graham
there's no excuses and you're gonna be who you always been. There was no other way around it.
- [19:11]
Mikhail Fishman
That's what I was doing. Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:27]
Bianna Golodryga
Next to China and hot on the heels of President Trump's visit, Vladimir Putin has been in Beijing today in of front embracing Xi Jinping and hailing ties between their countries as stronger than ever.
- [19:40]
Hari Sreenivasan
Our goal is the well being and prosperity of the Russian and Chinese peoples. These unshakable foundations have enabled our relations to successfully withstand repeated tests of strength and resilience.
- [19:55]
Bianna Golodryga
But as the Russian president looks east for support to the war in Ukraine, is testing his power at home. So how did Putin become Russia's forever leader and could history have taken a different turn? Mikhail Fishman is an exiled Russian journalist and author of the Successor Boris Nemtsov, Vladimir Putin and the Decline of Modern Russia. And he joins me now from Amsterdam. Michael, welcome back to the program. Congratulations on the book. It's a fascinating read and I want to get to the book in just a moment, but if we can talk about sort of the current lay of the land with the war, the President of Russia visiting China just after President Trump was there, and reports from the Economist and publications like ours and others showing that Russia's spring offensive has essentially stalled. Ukraine for the first time in months is actually clawing back more territory and inflicting up to 35,000 Russian casualties month. From your vantage point, is this just a temporary lull on the part of Russia or are we really witnessing a strategic turning point here in the war?
- [21:08]
Mikhail Fishman
Well, first, thank you for having me and I'm really flattered. Now getting back to your question about what's going on at the battlefield and wider in Putin's war with Ukraine. It's probably too early to say if it's a strategic turning point of this war, but it certainly looks like the balance of military strength in this war has shifted, at least for now. As you have mentioned correctly for three months already, the Russia's offensive at the battlefield is stalled and to a large extent this is due to the AI powered new Ukrainian mid range drones who successfully hunt Russia's military supplies behind the front line. Which makes, makes the so called, I think that everybody knows this term now kill zone at the battlefield much more reinforced I can say. And it's getting harder and harder for Russian military to get through using its infiltration tactics. And with as again you mentioned Russia's contract soldiers recruitment problems are beginning to show. And given the fact that Ukraine is pouring billions of dollars, not only Ukraine, but with European allies, billions of dollars into production of drones, it is very likely, it's likely, it may happen that in some point in few months time this kill zone will become largely impassable at all. Which makes will make Putin's main goal to capture the whole Donetsk Donbass area more elusive than ever.
- [23:28]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, and we've witnessed with our own eyes over the last four years the evolution of modern day warfare with this drone technology that the Ukrainians themselves have been able to capitalize on as a business model now that they are sharing with the rest of the world, I mean including the Middle east with the war in Iran by now. But if you look at what Ukraine has been able to do, and that is bring the war literally to Vladimir Putin's doorsteps there in Moscow with its largest drone assault of the year, I think it was some 600 drones that Ukraine launched towards Moscow and Russia. 500 of them were intercepted, but some did hit refineries, residential suburbs of Moscow. How much of bringing the war to the capital there shakes Vladimir Putin's narrative and message to the Russian people? That they essentially will be shielded from much of this war. The Spitse Baratza that he described as the special military operation for so long.
- [24:36]
Mikhail Fishman
Exactly. It certainly does. It certainly affects Putin's position and the understanding where this war is going. Even the most prominent, which means the most hypocritical state propagandists now acknowledge that the war with Ukraine has entered a new phase in which Russia is forced to defend itself at home against Ukrainian drones and missiles in Moscow these days. But before that, Ukrainian drones are steadily week by week expanding the area of their strikes inside Russia. They now as as far as rural mountains as everybody knows, and that's a totally different situation. We saw how Putin had to squeeze his military parade which was designed to, which is initially designed as his most valuable show of strength which now before our eyes turned into demonstration of his weakness as he was afraid that Ukrainian drones would strike his weaponry before the parade as they were warehoused in waiting for the show to begin. Right. So that's a very different story now and it actually very visible. And the mood in across the Russian elite, the Russian military bloggers, even as I mentioned, Russian most infamous propagandists is now different than it was a month or two, two months ago. The mood is now that this Putin is not winning this war, and this will. And the mood across Russian society, and we know that from independent pollsters as well as from state posters, that the mood is also darkening, that there was a huge hope when Donald Trump entered the scene more than a year ago that he would help Putin to end this war on whatever terms, but the war would end and things would get back to normal as they were before the war started in February 2022. And now the mood is totally opposite. This would never end. And the feeling of insecurity is growing with every day. Everyone can be. Every building, every Russian region can be hit with Ukrainian drone missile any moment now. That's now the general feeling.
- [27:37]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. And the fact that Vladimir Putin had to essentially ask President Trump to agree to a ceasefire with President Zelensky over the course of those few days leading up to the parade is very telling as well. I want to ask you about the reporting that all comes to a head about where Vladimir Putin is at this point today. Whether he is hidden in a bunker daily, now even more so removed from society, more paranoid, his cooks and bodyguards banned from public transport. He's seeing more and more of his top generals being assassinated. He's in the country's capital as well. That's led some publications like the Economist, to question whether Vladimir Putin is actually losing his grip of control over the country. And I was watching your weekly show, which I have for many years now in English and so on, and your interpretation is the opposite, at least temporarily, that you think this is a sign of Vladimir Putin actually holding more control over the country, becoming more repressive because of what he fears may be external or even internal forces trying totrying to see him out of office.
- [28:59]
Mikhail Fishman
Well, that would be an exaggeration of what I said on my show, probably a slight exaggeration. But my point was, and is that that certainly things are changing for Putin. The situation in Russia is changing. The mood is changing. The mood within the elites is definitely shifting. That's the major factor. The core factor is the war, which is now never ending war, and the feeling that we does not know how to end it and nobody knows what's the next step and where it's all heading. Also very important factor is economy. Just a few days ago, the Russian government had to allow the expectation of economic growth this year to basically stagnation. And people are already feeling the pain and have to spend less on even food. And third, and this is a very important factor is Putin's assault on Internet freedom and social networks. And most Importantly telegram and mobile Internet during recent months, which is strongly opposed across the whole nation. Whoever you are, just a common people from in a small town, or a member of Putin's government, or a soldier
- [30:51]
Bianna Golodryga
on the battlefield,
- [30:54]
Mikhail Fishman
or a soldier on a battlefield or a military blogger, you are absolutely against it. And this actually added to this feeling that Putin is leading Russia to a totally different direction than everybody expected. And this is the situation Putin is in. So he has a choice what to do, either to back down or there are basically always three options to back down, to buy loyalty with money, but he doesn't have much. And third option is to retaliate and to increase repression. And that's the most likely, as we all now know who is Mr. Putin. This is the most likely path that
- [31:46]
Bianna Golodryga
he will choose to become even more and more repressive as he's concerned about his hold on power. You've also said that this war, and you've also said that this war ends when Vladimir Putin's reign ends, because you equate Vladimir Putin now with war. And that is something that Boris Nemtsov, your subject here of your book, the success successor, had been prescient enough throughout his career as he was a rising politician, perhaps heir apparent to Boris Yeltsin, and then an opponent to Vladimir Putin. That is something that he always signaled to the country, that Vladimir Putin will bring war to the country. And here we are now, Boris Nemtsov was murdered, assassinated in Moscow in 2015. And you've talked about him in this book as a leader of what could have been a different Russia. Just talk about what that Russia could have looked like.
- [32:50]
Mikhail Fishman
Yes, that's a very, very, very good question. And it's always very hard to imagine a different Russia, especially today, not only when I was finishing my book, which was even before the war started, although the English version, language version is an updated version, and it actually ends with the invasion, with Putin's invasion. But certainly now, when we all know how the story ended, and we all know that this aspiring young, let's say, proto democracy, which new state Russia, which started its journey in late 80s, early 90s and brought to life so many aspirations, hopes and political leaders as Boris Nemtsov now turned into one of the most brutal dictatorships of modern times. And so how would it could it be different? That's of course the point. So my answer to that would be that should Boris Nemtsov become the president, the story would be very different. Actually, almost anyone would have become president. The story would have accept Putin, the story would become Very different. But if Nemtsov would become president instead of Putin in the year 2000, let's imagine that he would still have to oppose this strong conservative wins. This frustration of Yeltsin era bankruptcy, political bankruptcy, economic bankruptcy of 1998 and this current would be very difficult to overcome. But if he would become president, he would most probably what is certain he would not be president today. He would most likely lose his next election. And what would have happened is that the question at the core of Russian Russian evil circle, which makes it end at the same, at the same point it started and always making the whole the same loop inside the history. The main question that when you are a political leader, you have so much at stake that if you lose, you lose not only your political position, not only your social status, but also your capital, very likely your freedom and maybe life. And that was the crucial question for Russian leadership during the 90s. And also now imagine Putin losing power now. So this evil circle would be broken with if anyone, especially himself, would rule Russia for at least four years.
- [36:14]
Bianna Golodryga
Let's as we close now, because we see what the alternative has been and that is the reality of life now under President Putin for some 26 years with UN exile, no real opposition following the murder of Nim Suf and then Navalny. That's when you and I last saw spoke and journalists like yourself now living in exile. I want to end the show with a brief glimpse for our viewers of what Boris Nemtsov's message was for Russians at the time.
- [36:49]
Hari Sreenivasan
We should say no to war. We should say enough of idiocy. We should say Russia and Ukraine without Putin. Russia and Ukraine without Putin.
- [37:01]
Bianna Golodryga
Also important to note that from day one he was against the annexation of Crimea as well. Mikhail Fishman, I suggest everyone read this book and thank you as always for your reporting. We can still follow it on tv. Rain, thank you.
- [37:16]
Mikhail Fishman
Thank you for having me. Thank you.
- [37:19]
Bianna Golodryga
And we'll be right back after this short break.
- [37:27]
Mikhail Fishman
Comedian Craig Ferguson is going coast to coast to unpack what it really means
- [37:31]
David A. Graham
to be an American today.
- [37:32]
Bianna Golodryga
What could possibly go wrong?
- [37:33]
Mikhail Fishman
Craig Ferguson, American on Purpose new series
- [37:37]
David A. Graham
premieres May 30 at 9 on CNN.
- [37:39]
Mikhail Fishman
And next day on the CNN app.
- [37:46]
Bianna Golodryga
Now, there may be growing divisions within Trump's MAGA base, but the rejection of feminism appears to be a unifying force for right wing males. With the help of social media, misogynistic views are being increasingly normalized. The Atlantic staff writer Helen Lewis has been keeping an eye on this growing frontier and it's the subject of her new June cover piece. She joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss her observations.
- [38:12]
Hari Sreenivasan
Bianna, thanks. Helen Lewis, thanks so much for joining us. You wrote a recent piece in the Atlantic and it's titled the Men who Want Women to Be Quiet where you describe this ideology called masculinism. Just kind of break that down for our audience, set the table for us.
- [38:28]
Helen Lewis
Yeah, I mean, people might have heard already about the manosphere, which is often described as a kind of network of male influencers who, you know, talk about whether or not it's boosting your testosterone or making yourself more attractive or working out whatever it might be. And I think this is a sort of the political wing of that, essentially. So masculinism is a kind of antidote or a backlash to feminism to say that men have been shamed for being men, women have feminized society in ways that the masculines contest. One of the big examples of that is that they think that empathy is now too dominant in politics, that women are empathetic. And too many female politicians, you know, they feel sorry for illegal immigrants or they feel sorry for violent criminals. And so, you know, borders aren't being enforced, laws aren't being enforced. So they have this really top to bottom critique of society and everything that's happened really in the last, well, you could say 100 years or more. At the very extreme end, you have people who, you know, who want women to be legally paid less than men or women who don't even vote in some of the more extreme cases.
- [39:31]
Hari Sreenivasan
Now you start the article out by talking about someone named Douglas Wilson who has a lot of policy prescription and he has also the ear of defense Secretary or Secretary of War Pete Hagseth. You write that Wilson believes that women should, quote, not ordinarily hold political office and should never serve in combat roles in the military. Husbands should have dominion over misbehaving wives, weight spending habits and choice of television programs. I mean, he's part of this movement. And you write that he's the co founder of the Communion of Reformed Churches based in Moscow, Idaho. Tell me a little bit more about him.
- [40:10]
Helen Lewis
Yeah, he's a really fascinating figure. I mean, he has been blogging for over 20 years now and he's written an extraordinary number of self published books. He has kind of founded a little empire empire in Idaho. So he has a publishing imprint that several members of his family write for. He has a streaming platform, he makes documentaries and he has this church that has planted 170 other churches around the US and he's been saying the same things for a really long time. But he feels that his moment has come to some extent. He feels that there is now an openness to the things that he's saying. And, yeah, that link to Hegseth is really important. So Doug Wilson went into the Pentagon in February, led a prayer service, and told everybody there to be unembarrassed, unapologetic Christians. And now the interesting thing about that is that that is not all flavors of Christianity, right? He's a Calvinist, he's a Protestant, and he doesn't, you know, in his. He would like America to be a theocracy, and he actually wouldn't really like expressions of Catholicism in the public square. So he doesn't like processions related to the Virgin Mary and that kind of thing. So he has got a very particular vision of what he thinks America should look like. And, you know, it is. It is a very narrow one. Very kind of. Few people need apply, really.
- [41:20]
Hari Sreenivasan
These voices like Mr. Wilson would have been considered fringe. And what you're saying is they are far more mainstreamed, perhaps because of the people who subscribe to them, like Pete
- [41:36]
Helen Lewis
Hegseth, and also because of the reach of the Internet, for better or worse, we've moved into a much more of a free for all media environment. You know, there would have been a time when people like Doug Wilson would have been kind of treated as a curiosity. And actually what's happened is that he has been able to build his own apparatus, right? There is no point, you or me, no platforming. Douglas Wilson, he has built his own platform and it's very popular and successful. And you could say the same thing about, you know, the. The manosphere influencers, you know, lots of them. Nick Fuentes, who I mentioned in the article, you know, he has been banned from a whole load of social media platforms, but not all of them. And also he has an army of fans who clip up things that he says and then distribute them. That was something that also worked very well for Andrew Tate. So, you know, there has been this democratizing of the discourse, which has been wonderful in lots of ways and given a lot of people more of a chance to speak. But it has also allowed some ideas that would once have been considered pretty extreme to be put in front of millions of people.
- [42:35]
Hari Sreenivasan
How does that kind of overlap? Right? You have, on the one hand, you're talking about somebody who has kind of religious motivations, and then how does that slide over into kind of political action and activity when it comes to this younger generation of men who might be listening to him. But they might also be YouTube influencers that are selling kind of how to look better and how to take the right vitamins or whatever it is, right?
- [43:01]
Helen Lewis
And all of it's wrapped together with kind of anti elitist message, right? So, you know, they are doing this to you. They are keeping you from, you know, expressing your natural, masculine, innate kind of sensibilities. So there is a kind of anti establishment tone that goes all the way through it. The other thing I found when I was researching this was that this is one of the few things that really binds the entirety of the new right, the online right, together. And that hadn't really kind of occurred to me before. You know, if we look at the MAGA movement now, there are some pretty deep splits on, you know, whether the tech companies should be better regulated, whether or not Israel should be treated as a, you know, a staunch military ally of the US or it should be treated at more arm's length way protectionism in trade versus, you know, there are big ideological divides within that movement, but the one thing that pretty much everybody can agree on is that there are a few too many bossy women around the place telling everybody what to do. And wouldn't actually everybody be happier if we reverted to a more kind of 1950s model of gender relations?
- [44:00]
Hari Sreenivasan
Yeah, you're right that masculinism has become the single most important force uniting the American right, bringing together an unlikely constellation of pastors, posters, senators, preachers, influencers, podcasters, and fanboys. Was there any kind of a triggering event? Do they see the success of President Trump as license?
- [44:21]
Helen Lewis
I think Trump is definitely a big part of it. He has always been someone who's traded on his kind of edginess, and he's willing to take on whatever you might call it, political correctness. He's also, he has run against and beaten two female opponents who are presented in this way that the manosphere hates, which is this managerial, bureaucratic coddling idea of like, the women are kind of the world's HR managers. They're the kind of the world's nannies and mums telling you what to do. And so, yeah, I think you, you can't see this story without a figure like Trump. Also, just this feeling in lots of online communities that are very popular with men, that being edgy is a kind of passport, it's your kind of credibility kind of waiver to get you into that space. You know, that you're, you're cool, you're chill, you don't mind if people use racist words or Sexist words. You know, you're not a kind of scold. All these negative ideas that they have about the left, it's become. Richard Hanania, who used to identify as a white nationalist, calls it the based ritual. Right. You show to the other people that you are based, you are cool with this kind of stuff. And you do that by being, by being racist or sexist or saying something like, well, actually, I think women shouldn't vote. And it's understood as being slightly joking, slightly ed, like deliberately edge lord provocative. But also there are people around this movement who very seriously, if they were allowed to constitute America's political landscape, that is what they think should happen.
- [45:40]
Hari Sreenivasan
I could see someone from the White House spokesperson's office saying, hey, look, President Trump keeps his arm's length from this. We've got the Secretary of Education, Linda McMahon, We've got the Director of National Intelligence, Dulce Gabbard. We have cabinet women who are high ranking officials. So we're not masculinists. We're not trying to court that vote.
- [46:03]
Helen Lewis
Right. And I think there's a really interesting thing that's gone on there. You might also mention Susie Wiles, who is America's first presidential Chief of staff. So I'm not going to make the claim that Donald Trump is a feminist. I don't think that's a claim he'd make for himself. But he is clearly actually not completely ill at ease with women in positions of authority. Although I think the only person he really likes being in a position of authority is himself. So it's all, it's all slightly relative. But there is an interesting thing that some of these people are more extreme than Donald Trump. And that's something that kind of often gets, I think, underrated. He kept off from the Republican platform in 2024, a federal nationwide abortion ban, which the pro life movement has wanted for a really long time. And Donald Trump had a sense that was too far. That would actually be the kind of thing. And if you look at where people votes, yeah, people have genuinely have, you know, concerns about abortion, but lots of Americans do support it in some circumstances. So Donald Trump correctly identified that was a step too far. And there's the similar thing, I think that happens with, you know, with some of these masculinist ideas. He is, at the same time, he can be very sexist. You know, he told a female reporter to be a quiet piggy, quiet. This very belittling sex is put down that I actually found quite shocking. I can't really imagine George W. Bush or recent Republican presidents doing such a thing.
- [47:25]
Hari Sreenivasan
It's interesting. Right now we also seem to be in a place where there are a lot of women who are embracing the traditional wife or trad wife philosophy and ideology, which kind of lines very nicely along with the masculinists. But the women are opting into this, and then all of a sudden it says, well, they're not being oppressed into it, they're choosing it.
- [47:49]
Helen Lewis
Yeah, and I think that's very different. If any couple in America, you know, goes, we'd actually like a really traditional split of breadwinner and homemaker, and maybe, you know, we're going to make some economic sacrifices to do that, then God bless them, I'm all for it. The difficulty is about, you know, not being able to make that choice, having it forced on you. But the interesting thing to me, yeah, I think the tradwife phenomenon is a bit related to the, you know, manosphere in the sense, I think both of them are entrepreneur, led by people who are playing characters on social media that may not be reflected in their everyday lives themselves. You know, you see lots of people who are preaching things and living a lifestyle for the benefit of, you know, the gram. And the same thing happens with a lot of trad wives. You know, most of them are essentially small business owners. You know, they're actually. Their content is their product, their lifestyle is their product. So they're, you know, they're just as. Just as much as a female CEO. They are participating in that kind of capitalist economy.
- [48:43]
Hari Sreenivasan
We've had multiple conversations on this program with different people who've come on and said, you know, look, there is a problem that young men are facing right now. There's a loneliness crisis. They are struggling for economic viability. You know, is there something about that audience that makes them more vulnerable to hearing or subscribing to masculinism when they see it online.
- [49:08]
Helen Lewis
The thing that I hear a lot, particularly from parents of teenage boys, is that there has been this message to boys that they are in some way inherently toxic, that they are sort of stained by original sin, or that they are, you know, mini patriarchs in waiting. They have all this power. And, you know, it's been a while since I was a teenager, but I can imagine that teenage boys feel like this. You don't feel very powerful. You feel insecure. You know, you want people to like you. You don't really have a kind of CV that you can boast about, whatever it might be. And so I think that audience, you know, I feel for them. If you are a 17 year old boy who is, you know, really desperate to find a girlfriend or boyfriend who doesn't have a, you know, weekend job, who's worried about being popular at school. And then you get told there are all these ways to be an awesome alpha guy. Then I can see why that's a really, really appealing message. And I can also see why it's a real turn off. If you get told that you are, there's something sort of wrong with you and that being a man is to be innately in the, the wrong.
- [50:02]
Hari Sreenivasan
One of the pieces of data that you have in there is that 83% of Republican men under 50 years old agree that society has become feminine. Now whether they continue to hold those views, I don't know. But that's an enormous number. And that is going to be the group that takes over the party.
- [50:20]
Helen Lewis
I think it's really interesting that data because it's not wrong in the sense that I went back 20 years and Congress was 16% female. 3% of S&P CEOs were female. So there have been really big advances. You know, there are more women around. Some people for the first time will have a, you know, a female boss for the first time in their life. One of the things I wrote about in my book on feminism was how difficult it can sometimes be for male teachers and they can be the only man in the staff room. And that was an experience that was uncomfortable for women entering male dominated work for forces, right. And finding that they were kind of the odd person out. And the same thing might now be happening to more men, that they, you know, they might not be in the big dominant group and in publishing or in academia or wherever it might be. So, you know, I don't, I don't think that the criticism is completely invalid, right. Social changes have happened, but the question is whether or not the slightly overblown claim that this is a kind of threat to civilization and everything's going to hell in a handcart is actually, that's the bit that I think is harder to prove is women's fault.
- [51:24]
Hari Sreenivasan
You cite different evidence based claims that are being made by different people. You talk to Helen Andrews, a religious historian. You talk to a political commentator, Charles Cornish. Dale, you know, there was a quote in there. Leftists have now openly embraced emasculation and having low testosterone as part of their identity. What are they claiming? Why should it be taken seriously? Is this an edge case that they're amplifying or is this something that has happened to the mainstream left?
- [51:53]
Helen Lewis
The thesis there from Charles Cornish Dale, whose Internet handle is Raw Egg Nationalist. He believes in eating 12 raw eggs a day in order to boost your testosterone levels. Just a little bit of news you can use there. But the idea is essentially that sperm counts have been falling, testosterone rates have been falling. There seems to be some evidence for that. I wouldn't say it's completely obvious and cut and dried. But the secondary claim is that actually, if you were a high T, aggressive, virile man, then you like inequality, you like entrepreneurialism, you like striving, you like all those values that we traditionally associate with the right of politics, that kind of competitive energy. What his claim then goes on to say is that low T equals liberalism, right? More concern about equality, more concern about making sure everybody's feelings are kind of salved. You know, I just, I feel like that's imposing a kind of frame of gender onto some fairly big and, you know, abstract concepts.
- [52:48]
Hari Sreenivasan
Helen Lewis, thanks so much for your time.
- [52:50]
Helen Lewis
Thank you.
- [52:52]
Bianna Golodryga
And finally for us, Rafael Nadal's journey to the top. As a 22 time Grand Slam champion, he's known as one of the greatest tennis players of our time. But Nadal's extraordinary success did not come easy. Now, almost two years after his retirement, a new documentary is unveiling the struggles that he endured, both physically, physically and mentally throughout his career. And earlier today, Christiane sat down with the tennis star and asked him about it.
- [53:20]
Helen Lewis
Tell me about the level of anxiety and stress having to go out, for instance, at one point with a bottle of water the whole time, you know, and how you work through that.
- [53:31]
Mikhail Fishman
Probably because I went through a lot of injuries, a lot of pressure and a rightful moment that in, in some way you are not able to handle all of this. And even if in my mind, I was able to handle all of this, arrived point that your mind fails, you know, and that's what, that's what happened. So when, okay, I always thought that I need to fix things for myself in terms of mental, mental strength. No. But right from on that, when I
- [54:03]
Hari Sreenivasan
was,
- [54:06]
Mikhail Fishman
my feeling was okay, I cannot go out on the street without a bottle of water on my hand. So, yeah, that's a big, that's a big deal. So I need to find help.
- [54:18]
Bianna Golodryga
Make sure to tune in tomorrow for the full conversation. And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching and goodbye from New York. I'm Eva Longoria, and I'm setting out to really experience France, to see savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history.
- [54:59]
Helen Lewis
EVA Longoria, searching for France now streaming
- [55:01]
Mikhail Fishman
on the CNN app.
- [55:04]
Bianna Golodryga
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, what do we know about how much AI is contributing to energy consumption, energy demand right now? And how does that compare with other industries?
- [55:19]
Mikhail Fishman
The best resource for that is the International Energy Agency, which is sort of the global energy think tank that collects data of this. And what they predict is that about 8% of the additional electricity that we're going to need by 2030, that will be for data centers. The other 92% is for other things, industry, electrification, electric vehicles. And AI is really only driving part of that increase in demand.
- [55:44]
Bianna Golodryga
Listen to CNN's terms of service. Wherever you get your podcasts.