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- [00:00]
CNN Announcer
CNN's Comedy Quiz show is back. Have I GOT News for you returns. Tackling the week's top stories, making sense of the mayhem and definitely adding to it. Get ready for a brand new season premiering Saturday, September 6th on CNN.
- [00:16]
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- [01:17]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Russia launches brutal strikes on Kiev. Trump says Vladimir, stop. I speak to a Ukrainian member of Parliament and with the senior EU diplomat David o' Sullivan from Brussels. Then the world mourns an outspoken opponent of war. I'm joined by two courageous peacemakers who met Pope Francis, Israeli Rami Elhanan and Palestinian Bassem Aramin. And we look back at my conversation with the Argentinian Rabbi Abraham Skorker about building bridges between religions with his friend who then became pop. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In London today, Kyiv is trying to clear the rubble, clear the bodies and clear the injured. After a massive wave of Russian strikes throughout the night and into the early morning, it looked like the early days of the war. Three years ago. Following the attacks, President Zelenskyy rushed back from an official visit to South Africa, where earlier he had rejected the latest Trump administration proposal to end the war, which to Kyiv sounds more like a term of surrender.
- [02:49]
Bassem Aramin
We are doing everything that our partners have suggested, except for what we cannot do because it is contrary to our legislative constitution. And this is understandable because even the struggle for the independence of our state, for our sovereign and for territorial integrity, is our survival.
- [03:10]
Christiane Amanpour
The White House proposes recognizing Russian control of Crimea, which Putin annexed in 2014, and freezing territorial lines quote somewhere close to what Russia has illegally grabbed since its full scale invasion of 2022. Speaking in India, US Vice President J.D. vance threatened to abandon negotiations if Ukraine won't accept these terms.
- [03:35]
J.D. Vance
We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. We want the killing to stop. And the only way to really stop the killing is for the armies to both put down their weapons to freeze this thing and to get on with the business of actually building a better Russia and a better Ukraine. We're certainly invested in that effort. We hope the Russians and the Ukrainians will meet us halfway.
- [04:01]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, the Ukrainians did already meet one of the demands, and that was for a temporary ceasefire, but Russia didn't. And after Russia's overnight airstrikes that killed at least 12 people, President Trump posted. I am not happy with the Russian strikes on Kyiv. Not necessary and very bad timing. Vladimir, stop. 5,000 soldiers a week are dying. Let's get the peace deal done now. Oleksi, Sorry. Oleksiy Goncharenko is a member of Ukraine's parliament and he tracked the Russian missile strikes all through the night. Welcome to our program.
- [04:37]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Hello.
- [04:38]
Christiane Amanpour
Just. Let me just react to me where Ukraine stands. We've heard obviously from President Zelensky about, you know, not being able to accept what's being proposed. To describe to me beyond the constitutional issue, what you think of the US Proposal.
- [05:00]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Hi, Christian. Hello, everybody. The problem is that we know leaks in media, but we can't verify them. So we don't really know what was US Proposal. At least I don't know exactly, because there were a lot of rumors that United States pushed Ukraine to recognize part of our territories occupied by Russia as Russian. But Donald Trump yesterday in his statement clearly said that it's not the case. He said, nobody asks Ukraine to recognize Crimea to be Russian. So what exactly is in the proposal is not clear. If we're speaking about what was leaked. Almost everything. All what we saw there is absolutely acceptable, except one point about recognition of Crimea to be Russian, because definitely that is something which destroys international law, which opens the Pandora box. There will be more aggressions after this in the world, definitely for Ukraine is unacceptable. But in general, we need peace. We need peace as soon as possible. And we hope very much that American efforts in this direction will have a real result.
- [06:16]
Christiane Amanpour
You obviously saw, because you were tracking it all night, that shortly after this, you know, proposal that was leaked or whether it's real or not, we're not sure. But in any event, you clearly don't believe it's a strong proposal, these strikes from Russia. And then, you know, obviously Trump was annoyed and cross and angry, and he posted and he said, vladimir, stop. Where do you. How do you expect Putin to react to that tweet, that post?
- [06:51]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
That's a good question. I hope that Putin will stop exactly what Trump asks him to do. If not, I think it's the time for President Trump to put pressure on Moscow, because President Trump already put quite a pressure on Ukraine, on Zelensky, but it's time to put pressure on Russia because Russia feels itself more and more emboldened. And, yes, they're playing games with President Trump, but I think they are making a big mistake. They think nobody understands what they're doing, sending to Trump his portraits, praising him and so on, but at the same time, continuing the war and killing children, like this night in Kiev. And not only. I think that President Trump is very clear now. And if Putin will ignore his request to stop, then I think it's the time for President Trump to show strength. It's enough to show carrot to this donkey. It's time to show the stick and to use it.
- [07:53]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, you know, I know you're trying to, you know, you don't want to anger Trump anymore against Ukraine, but he has been saying some things that make, you know, he considers Ukraine, as he keeps saying, to have no cards. He posted, we're very close to a deal, but the man with no cards to play should now finally get it done. I've spoken to other analysts. I've reported from the front line there. Ukraine doesn't appear to be losing. It's not great, the situation on the ground. But do you agree that Ukraine has no cards?
- [08:31]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Definitely. As Ukrainian, I would never agree with this. And the main card we have is the courage of Ukrainian people. And this Karach already made a miracle when the whole world was waiting. That Russian armada will destroy Ukraine in days, and that Kyiv would be taken in two, three days or two, three weeks. But it never happened, and it will never happen. And all these Russian gains, unfortunately, they have some, but they are really very, very tiny. With such tempo of movement, it will take hundreds of years for Russia to take Ukraine. So it will never happen. But at the same time, I just want everybody to end. First of all, President Trump to remember Ukraine is not just President Zelensky, because relationships between these two men is bad. It's nothing good in this at all. I would like to see another relationship between two presidents. But we have what we have. But what is important for President Trump to remember, Ukraine is tens of millions of people. And it's not just President Zelensky, first of all. Secondly, the whole world is watching now, is United States a partner you can rely on? Because Ukraine gave up the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world in 1994, Ukraine received many commitments from the United States that United States will stand with us as long as it will be needed, and so on. And if after all these, Ukraine will be abandoned, that will be a clear signal to the world you can't count on the United States first. Second, if you want to have security, go nukes, because the only thing how small country can protect itself against bigger country is to have nuclear weapons. I think it's two signals which are unacceptable for President Trump. And that's why I hope that he will make right steps and he can really push Putin to peace. He has enough of leverage. Secondary sanctions on Russian oil, sanctions against Russian shadow fleet, and many other things which are absolutely the cards President Trump has.
- [10:34]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me ask you, because we think again, it's written in the press that President Zelenskyy would like to meet President Trump at the Pope's funeral this weekend. So it's happening on Saturday. Do you think a meeting would or should happen? And how do you think Zelenskyy should handle it this time?
- [10:53]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
You know, fingers crossed. If this meeting will happen, and I hope it will happen, it will not end like the last meeting in Oval Office ended. We don't need to argue with President Trump because we can't lose the United States of America. It doesn't matter. Do you like President Trump or not? We will not have any other president of the United States next three years and a half. So we respect American people. It means we respect their choice. They chose President Trump. We need to work with him, and we need to work not to argue. And the important thing is that we need United States more than United States needs us for the moment. But I'm sure in future, United States will also need Ukraine. And that's why it is absolutely mutually beneficial to support one another.
- [11:45]
Christiane Amanpour
Alexei, what do you think would happen if, as both Vice President Vance and Secretary of State Rubio have said several times now over the last couple of days, that either they're going to agree both parties, or the US Is going to walk away and focus on different priorities? What if the US does that and also ends the military aid? Do you think that that could happen? And what could you do about it? Where can you get the military aid that you need in time.
- [12:20]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Yeah. First of all, what does it mean walking away? Does it mean that also there will be no support or not maybe walking away from negotiations but continuing to military support? Ukraine, it's one story. Or abandoning Ukraine completely is another story. But where it can lead us is if Ukraine will be abandoned completely. I think definitely Ukraine, it leads to catastrophe because United States is absolutely vital partner for us. But at the same time, I think for United States and even personally to President Trump, it would be very bad because it can lead us to Afghanistan of President Trump. And we all remember how devastating was political effect of what had happened in Afghanistan in the beginning of Biden's term. I am absolutely sure that President Trump doesn't want to have something like this in the beginning of his term. That's why I don't believe it's possible that Ukraine will be abandoned completely. In this case, definitely we will count on Europe. But I should be frank with you, unfortunately for the moment, I don't see enough willingness because we hear a lot of statements from our European partners and I am very thankful for all support we are receiving. But statements is not decisions. I can't understand why Europe still is not seizing Russian assets. It's not in the hands of President Trump, it's in the hands of Europe. Why they are not doing this, why there is no military contingent which for example, secure Ukrainian Belarusian border and by this freeing Ukrainian forces to fight against Russians and many, many other questions. So we can't lose the United States.
- [14:09]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me just finally ask you, because you say we could be in a bad situation. We want peace, but at what cost? So as you say, you're correct. The details have been leaked. They've been reported from Axios. So one of them was the US recognition and everybody's recognition of Crimea, as you said, that's not possible. Recognition of Russia's occupation of parts of the east. A commitment for Ukraine not to join NATO though possibly, you know, possibly EU membership. And we talked about the lifting of sanctions on Russia. What about the NATO? I mean, if you were told that you had to sign a peace agreement that commits you to never joining NATO, is that something that you could accept?
- [14:55]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Never say never. The best possible security. We need security guarantee. We don't need NATO just to have our flag standing in Brussels. We need NATO because we need security guarantees that Russia will not attack Ukraine again in two, three, four years, maybe after President Trump will end his term. So that's why we need and the NATO is the best guarantee of this.
- [15:21]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay.
- [15:23]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
If not, it's possible because we want to be part of NATO. But if NATO says no, we can't do anything about this, absolutely anything. So we just can't. So in this situation, we need to find some other ways to deter Russia from possible new attack. It can be a package of things, economic deal with the United States, European contingent, European boots on the ground, long term commitments of weaponry supply and so on. So that's the way what we should follow.
- [15:57]
Christiane Amanpour
Thank you so much. Ukrainian MP Oleksei Goncharenko, thanks for joining us. Now, David o' Sullivan is the EU sanction envoy. He's tasked with holding the line on restrictive financial measures against Russia. He previously served as EU ambassador to Washington and he's joining us now from Brussels. Welcome to the program.
- [16:19]
CNN Announcer
Thank you very much, Christiane. Thank you for the invitation.
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Christiane Amanpour
So let me first start by asking you about the sanctions issue, which is essentially the only sort of tough measures that have been applied against Russia for the last several years. So you just heard what, you know, the voice from Ukraine. They say, well, why hasn't Europe, it's been talking about, you know, seizing sanctioned and frozen Russian assets. This was a big topic of conversation after Trump said that, you know, you're all on your own essentially. Can you explain to us why that hasn't happened, seizing the Russian frozen assets?
- [16:54]
CNN Announcer
Well, I mean, the assets have been frozen. Russia doesn't have them at their disposal. We estimate that as a result of that seizure, that freezing and as a result of sanctions more generally, Russia has about 450 billion euros less at its disposal than would otherwise have been the case. That's three or four times their annual defense budget. So the question of what ultimately happens to those assets, we are very clear that they will not be going back to Russia anytime soon. And we're very clear that they will be leveraged at some point to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine. So that's the position. And in the meantime, Russia does not have access to that money. And we are using windfall profits from those assets in order to provide loans to Ukraine for military equipment. So I think we are making good use of those of those immobilized assets. And the sanctions overall, of course, are having a very big impact on the Russian economy.
- [17:47]
Christiane Amanpour
Just one more on the frozen assets. Obviously, that protocol was in effect all along and before Trump basically said we're not sending any more and you have to do it Europe, there was a notion that Europe could actually have money from those frozen assets. Not down the road for reconstruction necessarily, but now for buying weapons for Ukraine, is that, is that out of the question?
- [18:12]
CNN Announcer
Well, I think we need to understand that the European Union has already contributed financially very significant to Ukraine, over 144 billion and slightly more, in fact, than the United States. But the question of whether you can seize and use the immobilized assets is a complicated legal one and we haven't found the perfect solution to that. But I emphasize they're not going back to Russia and they will be leveraged to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine.
- [18:38]
Christiane Amanpour
So let's talk about the because in part of this leaked document from the American organization Axios, the sort of apparent peace proposal that Trump has, it was also mentioned that sanctions would be released, sorry, lifted. Obviously, in our experience of negotiations, war against peace, sanctions are usually the last thing that comes off. They are there in return for a peace agreement and not before a peace agreement. So there's a lot of back and forth in the United States amongst the administration about did we say that? Didn't we say it? But very clearly Steve Witkoff anyway, has said it on tv. So it's been said, what is the actual fact? What can happen? Can the US Unilaterally lift sanctions? Can it force the EU to lift its sanctions even before there's a peace deal?
- [19:33]
CNN Announcer
Well, I think the sanctions which have been imposed by what I will call the G7 Plus Coalition, so the G7, but plus many other partners, including Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, even Taiwan, ultimately it's up to each member of that coalition to make the legal decision about their sanctions. So technically speaking, of course, or legally speaking, the United States would be fully free to lift its sanctions. We would sincerely hope that they would not, because I think the great strength of the coalition has come through our unity and the collective impact European sanctions would require. Lifting of European sanctions would require a European decision. And I can assure you that the mood in Europe is very much. We would need a lot, a lot of reassurance before we would even consider lifting sanctions. Exactly. As you say, the sanctions relief should be something which comes rather at the end of the process, as President von der Leyen said, when it's clear that we are dealing with a sustainable peace process where sanctions are no longer they were introduced in response to Russia's full scale invasion. And by the way, just to go back to the point made by our Ukrainian colleague earlier, I mean, the simplest way to peace is for Mr. Putin to say, I'm going to stop waging this war. I don't quite understand why. There is a sort of equivalence between Ukraine and Russia Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine is the victim. And the simplest way to have a ceasefire, for example, which Ukraine has accepted as unconditional, would be for Mr. Putin to say, yes, I also agree to a non conditional ceasefire. He seems to be trying to put conditions of which sanctions relief, which certainly from a European perspective is absolutely not acceptable at this point.
- [21:19]
Christiane Amanpour
And Mr. O', Sullivan, he's done a lot more than just than just that. He has met several times with Steve Witkoff. They've had four hours of conversation. Apparently there's more ahead Friday or Saturday or sometime in the next couple of days. Um, other analysts like Fiona Hill and others have said on various news programs that, that they believe Putin is playing Witkoff and playing Trump and they can't really understand. And somebody even said in Politico that this leaked plan, they asked, was it written by Putin? So how do you think the current state of negotiations, where the administration says, we want both to do both to stop, but what they say in public is much more to Putin's benefit, much more his talking points than, and still criticizing Ukraine. How do you, what's your reaction to this?
- [22:17]
CNN Announcer
Well, the situation, Christiane, is actually quite confusing. As you've just said. There are different, different things come out of Washington at different moments. They're going to lift sanctions, they're going to impose additional sanctions. So it's. It'. Sand. I'm certainly not privy to the, the inner conversations which are taking place. The only thing I can say is what I. If you want a ceasefire, then it is very easy for both sides to say an unconditional ceasefire and stop the fighting. Ukraine has agreed to this and it does strike us in Europe as somewhat surprising the extent to which the administration does sometimes take over the Russian narrative on this. But we are supportive of the administration's attempts to bring peace. Nobody wants peace more than the Ukrainians, nobody wants peace more than the Europeans. But it has to be a good peace, a peace that is sustainable. And as was mentioned in the to your earlier guest, that does not lead to Russia reengaging with aggression in a year or two's time and trying to finish the job they tried to start and failed in February of 2022. So that's the key criterion by which any, any, any settlement will be judged.
- [23:26]
Christiane Amanpour
And where do you think, what do you think will happen if the United States, as it has been suggested, walks away unless they get something tangible in the next, you know, near future, what will happen? Because already there's no security guarantees even in this plan from the United States. It's a US Plan, but no security guarantees from the United States. Russia has made it very clear that it would never accept any even European boots on the ground. Where do you think this goes if the US Decides that there's no more room for it to be the negotiator?
- [24:03]
CNN Announcer
Well, Christian, I, you're asking me to speculate about something which may not happen. Our, our sincere wish would be that the United States maintains its effort to try to bring about a peace. We will certainly maintain our sanctions and we will certainly maintain our full support for Ukraine, both military and economic. Ukraine is part of Europe. It is a future member of the European Union. And we stand fully behind Ukraine in their struggle to, to maintain their independence, their sovereignty and their freedom. And we would hope that we would still have many friends in Washington who see that in the same way.
- [24:39]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, today in Washington, other Norwegians, including the former NATO secretary general, who obviously knows this story very, very well and knows President Trump very well. We'll see what comes out of that meeting. David o', Sullivan, thank you very much indeed.
- [24:54]
CNN Announcer
Thank you.
- [24:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, later in the program, we remember the Pope's legacy of peace and building bridges between different religions.
- [25:07]
Claire Duffy
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, how to choose the right vpn, whether to trust public Wi fi, what to do with those annoying cookie pop ups, and more. To help me answer these rapid fire questions, I've invited Rachel Toback back to the show. You may remember her from our episode about setting and managing your passwords. Rachel is an ethical hacker and the CEO of Social Proof Security where she helps people and companies keep their data Safe. Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:53]
Christiane Amanpour
Incredibly, it has now been over 50 days since any aid has entered Gaza amid this full scale siege. Dozens more Palestinians have reportedly been killed by Israeli airstrikes in the past 24 hours alone. And dozens of Israeli hostages remain captive held by Hamas. About 24 of them are believed to still be alive. Now, civilians in Gaza have lost one of their strongest advocates on the world stage, Pope Francis. His unceasing calls for peace. Basically, he said, peacemaking requires courage, much more so than warfare. And few people embody that courage better than our next guest tonight. And the Pope recognized them, too. Last year, Francis met Rami Elahanan, an Israeli father, and Bassem Arameen, a Palestinian father who have both lost daughters to this endless war. Both men ultimately decided to use their grief to fight for peace and they Join me now from Haifa in Israel and Amman in Jordan. Welcome both of you to the program. Bassem, I know you are in Jordan, and Rami, you're in Israel, and I know you're soon going to be meeting up, but I must say that it is incredible that after all of this, you are still talking to each other and still want to pursue the alternative path. So just let me ask you first, Rami, what was it like meeting with the Pope? You met him last year, 2024, I believe. In fact, you both met him twice that year. Tell me, Rami, from your perspective, what it was like.
- [27:31]
Rami Elhanan
It was amazing. It was really unbelievably exciting. I'm not a religious person, and I didn't have many expectations out of this meeting. And I felt like a big father hugging me. And you have the feeling that you want to put your head on his shoulder. He was very compassionate. He was very empathic. He touched the picture of our girls and he received the book from us. He was so nice. He was so polite. He was so compassionate that I was really touched by his behavior.
- [28:08]
Christiane Amanpour
And Bassem, you. How did you feel about it? Are you a religious person?
- [28:16]
Bassem Aramin
Yeah. Thank you. In fact, yes, I am a religious person, but in general, I am not an emotional person, to be honest. But there is something like magic in this human being. It's a great leader, great human being, very modest. He gave you the impression that we know each other. I know you and exactly, I know your pain, as Rami mentioned, as a father. So, in fact, it's very sad to lose the most moral and courageous voice towards humanity and poor people and refugees and children and women. Unbelievable.
- [28:58]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm going to ask you to tell the stories of your girls, but first I want to say how the Pope reflected on what you have decided to do with your lives. He basically said, you are very courageous. There are three types of people. There are those who want to fight, and there are those who want to ignore the suffering and the pain. And then there are the peacemakers like you, who are willing to embrace and work with one another. These are really incredible words. And Rami, I see behind you, I see a little bit. And I've been told that you have pictures of your daughter and Bassem's daughter behind you, the two. The two girls who were killed. So remind me, I'm going to ask you first, tell me your daughter's name and what happened to her.
- [29:46]
Rami Elhanan
Rami, My daughter's name is Smadar Elhanan. Smadar is the grape of vine from The Song of Solomon. She was 14 years old. She was killed by a Hamas suicide bomber on 4 September 1997 in a suicide bombing in the heart of Jerusalem.
- [30:10]
Christiane Amanpour
And Bassem, what happened to your daughter and tell me her name.
- [30:16]
Bassem Aramin
Avir was my third child. She was 10 years old. And Israeli Burla police unfortunately shot and killed her in the front of her school from a distance of 15 to 20 meters and her head from the back. She was with her sister and two other girls. 9:30 in the morning. And unfortunately, two days later, she passed away in Hadassah Hospital, where she born and where Smadar born and died.
- [30:45]
Christiane Amanpour
Can you tell me how you two met and how you managed to translate this terrible pain and loss and grief into something positive?
- [30:57]
Rami Elhanan
I met Bassam in 2005 on the Cradle of the creation of a new peace movement, which is called the Combatants for Peace. My son Elik was one of the founders of this movement. He was a combat soldier in the Israeli army and later on became refusenik. And we were meeting the other side, what is known as the other side, and we met Bassam and I immediately fell in love with him and we became very close friends. They came to our house in Jerusalem, we came to their house in Anatta, and we became very, very close. And then two years later, on the 16th of January 2007, we got a telephone that Abir was shot and she's in the hospital. And we drove to the Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem, me and my wife, and we spent two days by her bed. And for me, it was like losing my daughter for the second time. I think it's an alliance. It's an alliance of blood. What connects us is far way beyond words. We are feeling the same. We don't need words to understand each other.
- [32:13]
Christiane Amanpour
And Bassem, it must have been unbelievable when Rami came and sat with you all for those days. And how did you develop into that, into that friendship as well? And that commitment to turn grief into something positive, like maybe one day even peace.
- [32:34]
Bassem Aramin
You know, it's not easy. We didn't start to make friendship. We want to be partners. And always I said, we don't need to love each other, we don't even need to like each other. Just we need to respect each other and to respect our rights to exist in both sides, to live in peace and security and dignity and social justice. Of course, we are human beings. And always I said that when you discover the humanity and the nobility of your enemy is not your enemy anymore. We became in the same Side who want peace, who are ready to pay the price for peace, because we know as ex fighters the price of fear and war and losing our children, especially because we lost our children. I said from the beginning we need to double our efforts to achieve peace now, not to continue the circle of revenge, because we will kill our other kids. They need to kill or to be killed. And in this case, I believe we encourage our kids to be killed or to kill without knowing, like in a very Western way, let me say, or modern way, the truth that we became very close friends and brothers. Now we are family. We want to prove that we can live together. Since 2005, up to date, we never thought simply because we respect each other and really we love each other as brothers, as family, our relationship is above any conflict because we see Israelis as Palestinians, as Americans, as Iraqis, as Canadians. We belong to the mankind. We need to work not only for the Palestinians and the Israelis, to make our world much safer and better. You know, today, when we see the situation, even the animals unfortunately feel shame, what we are doing to each other.
- [34:32]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me ask you, because you're talking especially about a period before October 7th, and that has changed everything. It certainly has changed so much in Israel. It's changed so much in Gaza and the west bank as well. Not just the terrible loss of life, but the hardening, obviously, under this constant bombardment and this separation of people's, of people's ability to talk like you. So has it been difficult, Rami, to continue this friendship, continue this level of empathy since October 7th? Have there been stresses on your relationship.
- [35:14]
Rami Elhanan
On October 7th, in the morning, when we didn't really know what's happening, Bassam called me and he said to me, brother, this time it's our time to conquer you. So you are invited to my house to get a shelter with your family. The conflict did not start on October 7th, did not end on October 8th. The Hamas killers that did the massacre on October 7th were 12 years old when Israel attacked Gaza in 2014. And it's a chain of violence which we are like the kid who puts his finger on damn trying to stop this bloodshed and this and this madness. And we do it with our moral authority. We pay the highest price possible. We have the moral authority to all those people. We cannot go on killing each other forever. We must put an end to it. We must respect each other. We can live together. And me and Bassam are an example that it is possible. The happiest day of my life will be when Mr. Bassama Amin will be My emperor, my prime minister, my king, my president, whatever he wants, because he is a human being.
- [36:32]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me ask you just quickly about this attitude, because just before Passover, about a thousand Israeli current and former Air Force pilots and other personnel, they published a letter, they demanded an end to the war for the sake of the hostage release. And since then, you know, more than a dozen or a couple of dozen more petitions by army units, civil society have been published. According to Haarez, they've got some hundred thousand supporters and signatories. But do you see that having an impact inside Israel, Rami, on either the politicians or indeed the majority of people these days?
- [37:13]
Rami Elhanan
We are fighting for our lives these very last dark days. And we are fighting for our democracy, we are fighting for our freedom, and we are fighting for our ability to raise children like normal human beings. And we are governed by a fascist government who has lost any Jewish value and put us in a place that me personally, I'm ashamed to be Jew at these days vis a vis what is going on in Gaza. And I really hope that we will conquer, that we will win and these are the minority of the Jewish people. And the whole world will come and put an end to this massacre in Gaza.
- [37:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Bassem, I want to ask you because as critical as Rami and many other Israelis are of their current government, you know that Hamas, which waged this horrendous catastrophe, this terrible slaughter, is in full control of Gaza. They don't have a choice. The people there, and some of them have been, when the bombings have been stopping, you've seen, they've come out to basically say, stop with this Hamas, release the hostages. You're bringing us this just in the last few days, the actual, you know, legitimate head of the Palestinians, which recognizes Israel, which has been elected, although a long time ago Mahmoud Abbas called Hamas sons of dogs. I mean, you know, this is rare language. What is the attitude on the Palestinian side to the catastrophic leadership that has also brought you to this terrible place?
- [38:54]
Bassem Aramin
Yeah. In fact, from the beginning, even before the 8th of October, the 7th of October, we say our position that it's a very brutal attack, we don't support it, and we know the result in advance. I say in the morning to Rami, when we hear about 15 to 20,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed, then we will start to talk about ceasefire. I was very modest, so we know where we are. The problem that if you follow the political attitude for the Israeli, this is exactly what they want. Since 2005, when Sharon withdrawed from Gaza without even talking to The Palestinian Authority to Mahmoud Abbas. In that time, like it's from one side, this was not expected. They give them power, they divide the Palestinian land between Gaza and the West Bank. This is their political game. And unfortunately, this is what happened. Now they give a very good excuse to Netanyahu, which became a very famous war criminal. And even he don't care about the hostages, according to their parents, so he will never care about the Palestinians. So in fact, I believe even the people of Gaza, the innocent people, they are not Hamas, they don't agree with Hamas, but Netanyahu and his government bomber them. Every day and every day we must hear from 30 to 50 to 100 children and women. So the people, the world lost his humanity. And now I think it's the time for everyone, and especially for the Israelis. They care about the hostages, their sons and daughters, which is very painful for me as ex prisoner. I spent seven years in jail in the Israeli jails. When I saw those hostages, you know, I feel myself in their place. So I feel them they must come back safe to their families, exactly. Like more than 15,000 Palestinian prisoners since 30 and 40 years in the Israeli jails. This will change the attitude, the atmosphere in the Palestinian, in the Palestinian side. And I believe after this genocide or ethnic cleansing, according to the Israelis, or massacres, whatever you call it, we must have peace. Otherwise we just invest in more blood, in more pain, and prepare for the next another 7th of October. Unfortunately, after 5 years, 7 years, 20 years, whatever, we must put an end to this madness once and forever by creating a peace deal with the Palestinians. Not with the Saudis, not with the Emirates, not with the Sudanis, with the Iraqis. It doesn't work. Only the Palestinians. They will be the guarantee of the Israeli security. They will never feel security until I feel security. And again, as my brother said, we are proof, we are evidence that we can live even together, one state, two states or five states. Otherwise we will share the same land as two big graveyards to our kids and our families and our people. And always we say that one day it will blow up in our faces. You cannot occupy another people and not expect one face. It will blow up in your face.
- [42:27]
Christiane Amanpour
So if that's what you feel. Basa Rami, you guys are going to. I believe you're on the way to meet each other in Spain. And you have already, as I said, written an article for the Spanish newspaper El Pais. What do you hope to tell to whoever you're meeting in Spain? Whatever public events you have. How I don't know when was the last time you actually physically saw each other, but are you looking forward to seeing each other, sharing a meal, having a chat.
- [42:57]
Rami Elhanan
Really? We met each other about a week ago when I came to the Parliament Circle office in Bejala, and I break the Israeli law and go to the Palestinian area just to meet and hug him. But our message to the people who invited us in Spain will be the same message we are telling you, I'm saying all the time, I have no sympathy for Hamas. Hamas are the killers of my daughter. But I will talk to the devil itself in order to to save one drop of blood. And this is exactly what we are doing. We are putting our pain on the table. Our pain is an energy of a nuclear power. You can use this nuclear energy in a way to distract, to destroy, and to dismiss everything. And you can use it in order to put some light, warmth, hope. And this is exactly our message when we go all around the world where we talk to all kinds of people, from the population to the last people, anywhere that we are the example that it is possible.
- [44:07]
Bassem Aramin
You know, Christine, I'm sorry just to say that, you know, today it's the International Day of the Holocaust. We need to learn a little bit from the history. We need to say never again for everyone. And my message to my Jewish brothers and sisters around the world, and especially the survivors, your voice is very important. If you like to support Israel to be a moral state, you need to raise your voice against the occupation, against the cruelty and against the violence, and promote peace and justice to everyone, because all of us have the right to live in peace.
- [44:52]
Christiane Amanpour
Indeed. And it's just so wonderful to hear from you both. And as you rightly pointed out, it is Holocaust Remembrance Day. And it's amazing to hear you guys. It just is. So, Bassem Aramin and Rami Elhanan, thank you very much for giving us some hope. And we'll be right back after this short break. Welcome back. Among the millions of people grieving the death of Pope Francis are, of course, his closest friends. Before he was Francis, he was Jorge Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, known for riding to work on public transport and for his love of soccer. One of his closest friends from that time was Rabbi Abraham Skorker. They spent hours discussing life and religion, which ultimately they turned into a book. And I spoke to Rabbi Skorka about it back in 2013, the year the cardinal became the Pope. Rabbi, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming into the studio.
- [45:56]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
It's my pleasure.
- [45:57]
Christiane Amanpour
Let me ask you what Everybody wants to know after your book has come out, how did you forge your friendship with now Pope Francis? How did it begin?
- [46:06]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
The beginning was through jokes about what we call an Argentina for football, the American soccer. But behind the jokes was a message. I understand, understood then that he sent me a message. I opened my heart.
- [46:27]
Christiane Amanpour
What does it mean for your faith, the Jewish faith, that you, a rabbi, have such a close personal relationship and a theological relationship with the leader of one 1.2 billion Catholics? What does it mean for your faith?
- [46:40]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
An historical moment, A very historical moment, because he is very close to us.
- [46:46]
Christiane Amanpour
Obviously. There's a lot of skepticism still amongst many Jews about the Catholic faith, about the actions of the pope, particularly Pius XII, during the Nazi period during World War II. This pope, when he was cardinal, has talked about opening the. The Vatican archives. Do you believe he will set a date for doing that?
- [47:08]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
So he told me that, and so it appears in the book.
- [47:12]
Christiane Amanpour
I'll put up the quote because it's very important, and then we can discuss it. Then Cardinal Bergoglio said, let them be opened and let everything be cleared up. Let it be seen. If they could have done something to help and until what point they could have helped, and if they made a mistake in any, in the aspect of this, we would have to say we have erred. We don't need to be scared of this. The truth has to be the goal. So how did you read that? It's a very frank admission that he's prepared to finally answer all the questions about what did the Church know and.
- [47:44]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
When did they know it, and surely that he will do what he said, that it has to be done.
- [47:55]
Christiane Amanpour
You also did talk about those terrible years in Argentina, the military dictatorship of the 1970s. It was known to a large extent as the Dirty Wars. And in the book, he talked to you and was very frank about the role of the Catholic Church at that time. He compared, for instance, the way the Argentine Church dealt with the dictatorship compared to where the Chilean church dealt with their dictatorship, and stood up much strongly, much more strongly to the dictator, their Pinochet. He said in the book the way you wanted the Argentine church to act was the way the Chilean church acted. What do you think he meant by that?
- [48:37]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
It's a critic to the Argentinian Church in it's very known that some priests were Catholic priests, were present in the places where people were tortured. And he criticized a lot this kind of priests. And so it appears, the book.
- [49:11]
Christiane Amanpour
And what did he say about his own experience during that time? There've been Many questions, as you know.
- [49:16]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
Yes, he has a very critical point of view regarding his own attitude during that period, asking himself, did I do the. Which was my possibilities. But what we know and now very clear that he hoped a lot of people. He saved a lot of people.
- [49:47]
Christiane Amanpour
There's so many different constituencies who look at this Pope now, Pope Francis, and they want to know what he's going to do on any number of issues. Let's just take the woman issue. Describing yourself as someone who's very familiar with the Pope. Who knows? Who knows the Pope's thinking. You said were all the decision power in his hands, he would do a lot. He would do a lot. What can you tell us about what you think he might do about the role of women?
- [50:15]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
I am not so sure exactly in a pragmatical way what he will do, but what I am really sure is that he will analyze 1000th time what is possible to be changed. He will open the debate. That's the first point, because don't forget that he has a history of 2000 years behind him and how to change that. He has a very open mind in order to analyze all the themes for him. There is not a close theme, even homosexuality, even abortion, to analyze now. How to change, I cannot foresee.
- [51:13]
Christiane Amanpour
And on celibacy, priestly celibacy, he said in the book, it is an issue of discipline, not faith. It can be changed.
- [51:22]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
Yeah.
- [51:23]
Christiane Amanpour
Do you think that's something that he really wants to delve into deeply and possibly institute changes?
- [51:28]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
So he said in the book. He said that. He told me. I don't remember if this appeared in the book, but he told me, look, I received this tradition, but I know this is not a dogma, this is just a tradition. And maybe that in the future it could be changed. I don't remember if these words appear in the book, but during our conversations, it shocked. Why I remember this so clear because I remained shocked when he said, in the future could be. This is my tradition, but in the future. And it could be that he will pave the way, not in his papacy, but in another papacy to come, that another one would change that.
- [52:13]
Christiane Amanpour
What is your observation of the difference between the cardinal and now the Pope, who you know so well, and his predecessor, Pope Benedict?
- [52:23]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
He laughs more.
- [52:25]
Christiane Amanpour
He laughs more.
- [52:26]
Rabbi Abraham Skorka
He laughs more. He. Yeah, he smiles more. He used to smile, but now very much often he laughs with a big laugh. Why? Because he knows that he must transmit and it's coming out from his heart because he knows that he must transmit an image of hope of hope through his love. Now the differences between between Ratzinger and my good friend Francisco. He lives with his mind in heaven and with his feet on earth.
- [53:25]
Audie Cornish
This week on THE Assignment with Me, Audie Cornish. My guest is Larry Wilmore. He's a writer and producer who's worked on some of the most successful shows of the century. In Living Color, the Bernie Mac show, the Daily Show, Blackish, Insecure. We're just naming a few. But in his heart, he's still a comedian.
- [53:43]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm getting back into doing standup again, which I really haven't done full time in a while. So what?
- [53:49]
Audie Cornish
Wait a second. Like, you're going, you're doing open mics?
- [53:52]
Christiane Amanpour
I'm going up Saturday night. I'm going to start working on a new hour.
- [53:56]
Bassem Aramin
Yeah. So it's a little scary.
- [53:58]
CNN Announcer
Audie, don't give me your eyes.
- [54:00]
Audie Cornish
I can imagine. What do you think is pulling at your chest here?
- [54:04]
Christiane Amanpour
I feel like I have to say something. I can't stay silent anymore about just the world that I'm in.
- [54:10]
Audie Cornish
Listen to the Assignment With Me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast. Applause.