Inside India's Youth Protest Movement

Summary

Amanpour – Inside India’s Youth Protest Movement
CNN Podcasts | August 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour, hosted by Christiana Mahmoud, explores the explosive rise of India’s Gen Z-led youth protest movement, the Cockroach Janta Party (CJP), in the wake of unprecedented exam fraud, government repression, and the broader struggle for democracy. The discussion centers on an in-depth interview with Abhijit Dipke, CJP’s head and a former Boston University student, who has become the face of this viral movement. The episode also features an interview with acclaimed conductor Gustavo Dudamel on the enduring power of music, and a report on the U.S. government’s rollback of climate information resources.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• [00:37] – [05:29] Abhijit Dipke recounts protests, police brutality, and the movement’s viral strategy
• [05:29] – [09:43] Education pressure in India and the origins of the Cockroach Janta Party
• [10:13] – [11:15] Movement’s future: Expansion and younger generations join
• [11:48] – [13:18] Impact on Modi’s BJP, shifting youth politics, and movement’s evolving agenda
• [13:48] – [15:02] Challenges: Repression, censorship, social media bans, and on-the-ground organizing
• [15:18] – [16:30] Discrediting tactics by the government and personal pressures
• [19:30] – [36:26] Gustavo Dudamel: Music, connection, and navigating political turmoil in Venezuela and the U.S.
• [37:49] – [52:18] Climate.gov Shutdown: Rebecca Lindsey on U.S. government climate information suppression
• [52:25] – End Closing features on Carly Simon and series promos

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Inside India’s Youth Protest Movement: Main Discussion Points

The Spark and the Spread

• Exam Scandal and Tragedy: The immediate cause was a leak in national medical entrance exams, leading to the suicides of over 20 students. Students’ trust in the system collapsed.

  • “The protest has been successful. We have been successful in getting the resignation of the education minister who was responsible for the death of more than 20 students who died by suicide because of the paper leak…” – Abhijit Dipke [03:58]

• Online Satire as Defiance: The movement’s name, the Cockroach Janta Party, originated from a derogatory remark by India’s Chief Justice, comparing protesting youth to “cockroaches and parasites.” The youth reclaimed the slur using humor and memes, which proved a tool against state brutality.

  • "The students didn’t go back to their homes. They continued the protest and they responded to the brutality with memes and humor. And I think nothing could be more beautiful than that." – Abhijit Dipke [05:13]

Systemic Pressures and Youth Experience

• Intense Academic and Societal Pressure: Becoming an engineer or doctor is the dominant definition of success; students are conditioned from childhood to see these as only valid careers.
  • “…in India, that is considered as one of the most prestigious jobs one can have. And that is also the parameter of your success.” – Abhijit Dipke [06:09]
• Coaching Industry & Burnout: Young people face immense competition, attending both school and coaching institutions, and studying up to 16 hours a day for years.

Suppression, Censorship, and Organizing

• Repression and Social Media Blackout: After the party’s satire spread, government agencies banned its social media accounts, labeled Dipke a “national security threat,” and censored posts containing the word “cockroach.”

  • “…the Indian government banned those social media accounts on Twitter by calling me a national security threat.” – Abhijit Dipke [07:58]

• Intimidation and Obstacles on the Ground: Venue owners faced threats for hosting CJP meetings; attempts to organize offline also face heavy pressure from ruling party operatives.

  • “…the owner of the venue was threatened by the ruling party…telling them that if you give venue to the Cockroach Janta party…we will hang you up upside down.” – Abhijit Dipke [13:48]

• Ongoing Accusations of Foreign Influence: The government alleges foreign manipulation and bots fuel the movement without offering proof.

  • “They are free to investigate us. Why are you just keeping on accusing us?” – Abhijit Dipke [15:18]

Movement’s Momentum and Broader Goals

• Beyond a One-Issue Protest: The resignation of the education minister was viewed as a beginning. The movement is now expanding into younger generations, driving broader accountability demands in public schools and beyond.

  • “…what happened with the resignation…was just a beginning to seek accountability from the system. And now everybody is starting their own protest, demanding accountability from…the ministers.” – Abhijit Dipke [10:13]

• Political Impact: Modi’s ruling BJP lost a constituency stronghold after three decades, spotlighting the political risk in alienating the youth.

  • “…since your movement, the BJP, Modi’s party has now lost a constituency that it had held for three decades and it appears to be…on shaky ground, especially amongst the young voters…” – Christiana Mahmoud [11:15]

• Key Issues Going Forward: Education and unemployment will remain core; India faces a crisis where degrees are no longer assets but perceived liabilities for youth.

  • “Unemployment in India is the biggest crisis…because 80% of unemployed people…are degree holders.” – Abhijit Dipke [12:04]

Personal Dimensions

• Dipke’s Motivation and Sacrifice: Despite personal risk and family pressure ("the only thing [parents] care about is when are you going to get married"), Dipke affirms commitment to the movement over returning to his studies or yielding to matchmaking.
  • “I’m not going to submit to that pressure because right now my topmost priority is to carry forward the movement…” – Abhijit Dipke [16:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Abhijit Dipke on Youth Defiance:
  “The students didn’t go back to their homes. They continued the protest and they responded to brutality with memes and humor.” [05:13]
• On Indian Academic Culture:
  “In India, either you have to become a doctor or an engineer, and only then you will be considered as someone who has a successful career.” [06:09]
• On Repression and Censorship:
  “…the government has asked Meta to suppress the social media reach of it…they are trying to suppress our voices…” [13:48]
• On Accusations of Foreign Influence:
  “Go ahead, investigate us and if we are guilty, give us the punishment. But since they are not investigating, they are just…defaming the movement.” [15:18]
• On Personal Sacrifice:
  “Right now my topmost priority is to carry forward the movement…to make a meaningful change in the country.” [16:30]
• Christiana Mahmoud’s Closing:
  “No matter how far you go, how high you climb, a mother has her priorities.” [17:21]

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Additional Highlighted Segments

“The Power of Classical Music”: Interview with Gustavo Dudamel

• Connecting Through Music: Dudamel speaks about empathy, feeling, and music’s unique social dimension.
  • “It’s a moment of connection, it’s a moment of interaction, it’s a moment of empathy…if not it’s about feeling, then it changed everything.” – Gustavo Dudamel [21:22]
• El Sistema and Social Change: Classical music’s capacity to transform disadvantaged children’s lives in Venezuela, not just as musicians but as citizens.
  • “We use music to transform the life of children that can be doctors, engineers, workers, whatever.” [27:56]
• On Global Tragedy and Resilience: Dudamel reflects on recent Venezuelan earthquakes and the need for global solidarity:
  • “…sometimes things happen and then in a few days people forget…for me, taking time to build something that we can think in rebuilding in the future.” [32:00]
• Art Bridging Societies: Dudamel discusses performing classical music at Coachella with popular artists, showing genre boundaries can be respectfully crossed.
  • “You have to do this and understand that this is a way not to conquer, but to really make people feel that they belong.” [33:18]

Climate Change and Information Suppression

• Shutdown of Climate.gov: Under the Trump administration, trusted sources of public-friendly climate information were dismantled; Rebecca Lindsey and her team scrambled to preserve access.
  • “What climate.gov did and what Climate US is going to do is build that bridge between the data and the public that needs things explained with non-technical terms.” [41:17]
  • On loss of accessible information:
    “…the entire Website of the U.S. global Change Research Program…was taken down…at the EPA, a whole section of the site…gone…” – Rebecca Lindsey [44:04]
• Mission Going Forward: Maintaining a nonpartisan, pro-science approach, and aiming to make climate education site “outlast every administration.” [51:14]

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Conclusion: Episode Takeaways

• India’s youth movement is unprecedented in scale and impact, using humor, irony, and digital savvy to sidestep repression, challenge deep-rooted societal pressures, and force political change—including the rare ouster of a cabinet minister.
• State retaliation is severe and multifaceted—from violence to digital muzzling to direct threats against organizers.
• The movement, while rooted in exam scandals, now aspires to broader accountability in governance and has altered India’s political calculus, especially among youth.
• Globally, struggles for truth, voice, and hope echo through other stories—whether through classical music as a force for empathy and healing (Dudamel), or in the battle for climate information accessibility (Lindsey).

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Recommended For:
Anyone interested in youth politics, protest movements, digital activism, Indian society, international democracy, or the fate of independent information in an age of state pushback. This episode offers a rich, on-the-ground look at seismic generational change and the forces arrayed against it.

Transcript

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Grainger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to

[Rebecca Lindsey]

see through walls and around corners.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

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[Rebecca Lindsey]

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[Christiana Mahmoud]

If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24.

[Hari Srinivasan]

7 support.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up.

[Abhijit Dipke]

It was really heartbreaking to see that the police were using pellet guns against students. But despite of that, despite of that, the students didn't go back to their homes. They continued the protest and they responded the brutality with memes and humor.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Is India on the cusp of change? And as the youth take to the streets, I speak to the head of its Gen Z Street movement, the Cockroach Janta Party.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Then it's a moment. It's a moment of connection, it's a moment of interaction, it's a moment of empathy. And when you, when you understand that that is not only the technical thing, it's not only the historical thing that it says. If not it's about feeling, then it changed everything.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

The power of classical music with maestro Gustavo Dudamel, we talk about his extraordinary career and his love for his homeland Venezuela, which is still reeling from devastating earthquakes.

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Thus the administration disbanded all of those scientists and completely took the entire website offline. So now all of the most authoritative reports on climate impacts in the U.S. in the United States have been taken down.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Extreme heat this summer. Denial from the Trump administration and the battle for accurate climate change information. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiana Mahmoud. In India, the youth are demanding they be heard. This week has seen another protest movement escalate with thousands of young job seekers and students taking to the streets in one of the country's poorest states. It is part of a weeks long protest demanding reforms to the recruitment processes for government jobs. And it comes just after the emergence of the Cockroach movement, a youth led campaign demanding exam and education reform. It began with defiant irony online, but quick quickly grew into a national outcry culminating in the resignation of the education minister. So as the country gets ready to celebrate 79 years of independence from Britain tomorrow, the government and Prime Minister Narendra Modi's BJP party face one of the biggest and toughest challenges in Years. The resignation of the education minister was a rare concession for the leader devoted to his own strong man image. Now Abhijit Dibke is the head of the Cockroach Janta party, the face of India's first Gen Z movement that's resonating all over the world now. He was recently a student at Boston University and he's joining me from New Delhi. Abhijit Dipke, welcome to the program.

[Abhijit Dipke]

Thank you.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

You know, I wonder how it feels to be the focus of so much international attention, obviously attention in India. But people are looking at you and thinking, wow, this is the way to win politically. How do you feel now about your movement? After the education minister resigned, the government conceded quite a lot of the points that your movement was demanding.

[Abhijit Dipke]

Actually it feels really good because the protest has been successful. We have been successful in getting the resignation of the education minister who was responsible for the death of more than 20 students who died by suicide because of the paper leak that happened in the medical entrance exam in India. However, we believe that the resignation is not the biggest victory. The biggest victory is that people have become fearless in while cushioning the government because there was a trend happening in India where people were afraid of speaking up. People were scared of questioning the government because whenever somebody used to speak against the government they used to file cases against them. They even used to put them behind the jail. And we saw even during this protest there was extreme brutality done by the police officers against kids who were just 17, 18 years old. In front of my own eyes, the police actually beaten up a 12 year old girl. Some of the male police officer even tried to grab the girls by their neck and they beat them with batons, tear gases and even pellet guns. They, it was really heartbreaking to see that the police was using pellet guns against students. But despite of that, despite of that, the students didn't go back to their homes. They continued the protest and they responded the brutality with memes and humor. And I think nothing could be more beautiful than that. And this was truly a victory of democracy.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

So let me ask you this because you mentioned the trigger and that was the leaking of these medical exams and the horrendous fact that as you say, several people took their own lives over it. Can you explain to us why it is so dramatic, why it is so stressful that young people in India felt that they had no chance and no choice other than to take their own lives. We're sitting here in the UK this week as all, you know, a level results and you know, results for university come out. End of high school results. What is it about the Indian ones that are so dramatically important in India?

[Abhijit Dipke]

Whenever a child grows up, he goes to school, there is a pressure on him. There is expectations from them, from the children, that either they should become a successful, become a successful engineer or a doctor. And you can see this across the world. Majority of the people that you see across the world are mostly in the engineering field or even in the doctors. They are mostly Indians. And that is because in India, that is considered as one of the most prestigious job one can have. And that is also the parameter of your success. So any in India, either you have to become a doctor or an engineer, and only then you will be considered as someone who has a successful career. And that is why the children in India always face a lot of pressure while growing up, even while studying, because they feel that if they don't become doctor or an engineer, they have failed. Such is the situation and such is the, I would say, conditioning in the country. And when there is this kind of conditioning, the students are already under a lot of stress, lot of burden. And they study for like 15 to 16 hours in a day for three to four years. Right from the eighth grade, they start preparing for the engineering entrance exams and medical entrance exams. And for that there are all coaching institutions. So the children go to a coaching institution as well as schools?

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Yes. So I understand you've laid it out very clearly. And on top of all that, apparently some 2/3 of India's population is under 35 years old. So we'll get to that in a second. But you also are a student. How did this suddenly come to be there? You are working for your own academic progress and you get up and come to India having started this movement. What happened? How did it trigger it?

[Abhijit Dipke]

I had just graduated and completed my masters. And after that, I just saw the Chief justice of India made a comment where he compared the youth with cockroaches and parasites for criticizing the system. And I just made a tweet on that. How can the Chief justice of India can make a comment where he compares the youth with cockroaches and parasites? And after that, the whole thing blew up. Many people started reposting, resharing that tweet. And after that, that led me to the idea, why not launch a parody party, political party, which could be called as the Cockroachanta Party, taking inspiration from the same word that the Chief justice of India used to mean the youth. And that particular satirical political party gained huge traction. And then we launched our social media platforms for that satire, parody, political party. But within four days, the Indian government banned those social media accounts on Twitter by calling me a national security threat. And I was an international student, an Indian student in the us. I was there on an Indian passport and my own government was calling me a national security threat. Someone who has lived his entire life in India, someone who has studied in the country and who has just came to the US in just last two years. So I was very disappointed, very disheartened. More than that, I was heartbroken that the government of my own country was calling me a national security threat. And that is why I chose to come back to my country and to prove that I'm not a national security threat. If anything, I'm a patriot and I love my country, just not in the way this government expects me to. But I do love my country.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

So it's very clear that. And you put your, you know, your body in the, you know, on the line there to defend democracy in your own country. So what happens next? Does this remain the C, the cjp? Will it still keep the name cockroach? Will you continue it as a political movement or has it done what you wanted it to do, got the resignation of a minister, got concessions from the government? Are you going to continue? And do you think it has legs, so to speak?

[Abhijit Dipke]

Christian, I'm really happy to tell you that what began on 20 June in India, a sit in protest that has spread across the country. Now it's no longer just the Gen Z, the Gen Alpha in the country. 1012 year old kids are protesting in their schools, especially the public schools where facilities are very bad. The public schools in India are in complete shambles. They don't have benches to sit on, they don't have drinking water, they don't even have washrooms. And for that the general. These 1012 years, 1012 years old kids are protesting, taking inspiration from what happened during the Gen Z protest and it has already been spread across the country. So we do believe that what happened with the resignation of the education minister was just a beginning to seek accountability from the system. And now everybody is starting their own protest, demanding accountability from the system, from the ministers. And people are raising their voices like never before in last 10, 12 years.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Yeah. Abhijeep Dikke, you know, because you've lived it, that the Modi government has been very successful in essentially blanking out and suppressing a lot of political opposition, certainly media diversity and opposition. But since your movement, the bjp, Modi's party has now lost a constituency that it had held for three decades and it appears to be, you know, on shaky ground, especially underamongst the young voters and young people.

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Are you,

[Christiana Mahmoud]

is this something you think will expand? Do you think his government is really on the defensive? And two, are you a one issue party or does it go beyond all these education issues that you've just, just laid out?

[Abhijit Dipke]

Okay, to answer your first question, it definitely has the potential because we do believe that because the government was so adamant and had grown so arrogant in last one decade that it stopped listening to the people. And now the people have like got really frustrated, really fed up of this government. And that is why we saw such huge movement started with the Kokuru Janta party and now we, we can also see its consequences even in the elections where they lost a seat where they were in power for last 30 years. So of course if they are not going to listen to the people, if they are just going to ignore the people and keep torturing them, keep harassing the citizens, this is what the result will be. And coming to your second question, the corporate Genta party will remain a public pressure group and education will be our core issue. But apart from that, unemployment in India is the biggest crisis as of now because 80% of the unemployed people in the country are degree holders. In India in today's time, having a degree is no longer considered as an asset. It has become a liability. And people are really frustrated with that because with the cost of living, being unemployed has been really put people in a very difficult position where they are struggling for their livelihoods.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

And what about, you know, you just said that you'd been accused by your government of being a threat, a national security threat. As I said, you know, the mainstream media is not exactly a friend of diverse political parties who are opposed to the bjp. Are you getting space? Are they trying to blank you? Do you think that you're able to get your message across or you still just on social media? How are you campaigning and organizing in other words?

[Abhijit Dipke]

No. So we are holding meetings like we are holding. Mr. I'm really sorry. We are holding meetings in different parts of the country. We have expanded our organization, we have expanded our core team. But yes, the government and the ruling party are still trying to suppress our voices. Just yesterday we were supposed to have a volunteers meet where more than thousand people had come together to, to discuss the road ahead. And we booked, we had booked a venue but the owner of the venue was threatened by the ruling party members telling them that if you give venue to the cockroach Janta party for a meeting. We will hang you up upside down. These are the kind of threats that the people who are giving venues to the cockroach Janta party to hold meetings. These are the kind of threats they are getting. And apart from that, they are doing something very notorious with Meta on Instagram, if you post anything with the word cockroach, the government has asked Meta to suppress the social media reach of it. So these are the things that they are trying to. They are trying to suppress our voices on social media and as well on the ground. But I believe that's going to be useless since the people are really fed up and now the people are no longer scared of this government and they will come out on the streets if the government keeps suppressing their voices.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Let me ask you something because you've probably heard this. Obviously the government and those who oppose you have been saying that you know, your movement is also under foreign influence, that some of this big social media attraction is bots. What is your answer to that?

[Abhijit Dipke]

Like, they are free to investigate us. Why they are accusing us? You have all the machinery, you have all the agencies. Why don't you just investigate us? And why don't you just bring the fact sheet? Why are, why are you just keeping on accusing us? Go ahead, investigate us and if we are guilty, give us the punishment. But since they are not investigating, they are just only accusing, just to defame the movement. And this is not the first time in last few years whenever there has been a protest or whenever somebody has to speak up against this government, they have always been linked with foreign powers, be it the laborers, be it the farmers, or be it the doctors. Whenever somebody has tried to speak against this government, they have always linked them with foreign powers.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Yeah. So let me ask you, finally, here you are, burst onto the Indian and the international stage. But still I hear, correct me if I'm wrong, that your mother, as many, many Indian mothers and fathers, want to matchmake you to get her son married. Is that true? Are you going to submit to the motherly pressure? Are you going to go back to your college in, in. In. In the United States? Or are you staying right where you are?

[Abhijit Dipke]

No, I'm going to stay put in India. I've come back to my home and I'm going to be here. And I have already completed my studies in the US and so I'm not going to go back and come into the matchmaking thing. Indian parents don't care what you do in your life. They don't care at all. The only thing they care about is when are you going to get married, when their kid is going to get married. I'm not going to submit to that pressure because right now my topmost priority is to carry forward the movement to carry forward the Kokoro Janata Party and do whatever is possible to make a meaningful change in the country.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Well, Abhijit Dibke, I wish you good luck dealing with your parents and really it's going to be very interesting to watch your progress that has been so remarkable and so inspiring around the world. So thanks for being with us.

[Abhijit Dipke]

Thank you, Christian. Thank you so much.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

No matter how far you go, how high you climb, a mother has her priorities. And of course, we continue to ask the Indian government for their perspective. Later in the program, a visit to London's stunning Royal Albert hall to meet the most celebrated conductor of his generation. My interview with Gustavo Dudamel after the break. I'm Audie Cornish.

[Abhijit Dipke]

I'm Ari Shapiro. And it's engagement party. And we get to talk about what

[Gustavo Dudamel]

we're obsessed with, what we're engaged with,

[Rebecca Lindsey]

what we need to process with a friend.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

She is Emmy nominated for her turn in the show Hacks.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Obviously, Hollywood is recognizing it because it got more Emmy nominations than literally any

[Christiana Mahmoud]

other comedy in the history of the Emmys. Lauren wiedman, I'm happy that I've been able to work and being treated with

[Rebecca Lindsey]

a certain respect, I think because of

[Christiana Mahmoud]

my age too, which is, that's nice. Or having like grips come over to me going like, Lauren, Lauren, I worked with you on the Eddie Murphy movie.

[Abhijit Dipke]

Good to see you.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Good to see you're out here. Oh, I love that. Oh, that's, that's so great. It's totally great. It always makes me like, you see, I, this is a career, dammit.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Follow engagement party wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Now.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

This summer, as ever, music is taking over London for the annual proms. It's a 131-year-old classical music festival which is held at the Royal Albert Hall. And one of the main draws this year, the Venezuelan dynamo Gustavo Dudamel and the LA Philharmonic Orchestra. He's taken that from strength to strength since he picked up the conductor's baton there 17 years ago. And now he's going out on a high as he heads east to take over the New York Philharmonic. It is a triumphant moment for Dudamel, but it's tinged also with some tragedy. His homeland, Venezuela, still struggling in the wake of the devastating earthquakes that struck it in June, killing more than 6,000 people. I spoke to Dudamel at the Royal Albert hall about music, empathy, and why classical is never going out of fashion. Gustavo Dudamel, welcome back to our program.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Thank you very much.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

So if I could say you are the it man of the conducting world or the cultural world, right now. You're about to take over the New York Philharmonic from the LA Philharmonic. You conducted the Muppets in halftime at the World Cup Final, and you are literally everywhere. What does it feel like at this stage of your career to be so relevant still and so much part of the cultural dialogue?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, I think, first of all, thank you. It's so wonderful to be back talking to you. It's such a pleasure. And, you know, I take this. You know, I go back to my childhood, and I didn't want to be a famous conductor. Conducting the big orchestras for me was like to be with my friends and having fun making music and enjoying what we were doing. And it's exactly the same thing. When I have the chance to do these kind of crazy and amazing things, it's exactly the same feeling. And. And I think it's good in the sense of. For young people, I'm not anymore as young as I was before, you know, to be a reference, but for them to see that, you know, also classical music, it has a very fun and joyful side, which is not.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Well, that is actually really interesting. I was going to ask you, because the first half of your performance was Beethoven, and then you have more contemporary in the second half, what is it about classical music that really strikes you and what makes it lasting? Because people say, oh, you know, the kids don't care, but they do. I saw the age range of the people who came to see you here.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

That's true. You know, I think when you really understand the action of music, that is not only the entertainment, because then you start to compare, you know, this kind of music I like. It is when you see the action. All music, I will not put only classical is to be part of a very special dimension. It's a moment. It's a moment of connection. It's a moment of interaction. It's a moment of empathy. And when you understand that that is not only the technical thing, it's not only the historical thing that it says. If not it's about feeling, then it changed everything. When we play Pastoral Symphony, for example, Beethoven wanted for people to feel, not only to listen to music, if not to feel that they were in the summer, enjoying the nature and all of that. I think for us, it's very important to. With our soul, you know, sometimes it's too intellectual, but with our soul to really try to transmit that. Because people, sometimes they come to a concert and you close your eyes and you are listening, but at the same time you are feeling an energy. That dimension is unique. And that is why it's so important for our world that it's getting so disconnected. When you are in a concert hall, you are sitting so tight next to each other, so you are really connected. I think it's a very powerful thing.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

I don't know whether you turn around. I know you do, but maybe not in full conducting, but between pieces. And saw the people on the floor. So there's all these beautiful seats, but there were a lot of people on the floor. And I noticed quite elderly people had managed to get their way to the front and were leaning against that bar. And there were younger people at the back. When you see elderly people standing still and younger people for hours just listening to you, how does it make you feel when you see the audience?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, I think, you know, then we succeed. You know, that is, I think, the moment that you say, like, people love what they are receiving, you know, but not only receiving, you know, it's also that connection. It's that interaction. It's not only what happened on the stage, it's that person that is standing there making an effort, but that effort disappear. It becomes joy. It becomes, you know, connection with beauty. And that is. That is the best.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

So, you know, you were talking about being young and how this has been in your blood, in your body, since you were a young man. Your father was very musical. And in Venezuela you joined the El Sistema system, which was created to allow disadvantaged youth to partake in this kind of elitist thing, which is classical music. But it blows my mind when I read that, you know, you conducted your first orchestra at the age of 11.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Yeah, yeah, that, that. But that is. That is fascinating.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

I mean, how does that come about? Tell me about it.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, it's. I was conducting before at home, the recordings and my toys. That is, that is that you were conducting.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Your toys.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

My toys. And with the big orchestras. I always, when I arrived to rehearse to these huge orchestras. I said I conducted you when I was 7, 8 years old. And I rehearsed. I destroyed the LPs because I was going back stopping. It's not together this softer. And I went back and back and back. So when I was 11 years old, I was playing in an orchestra. It was called the Amadeus Chamber Orchestra. And it was a youth orchestra that we have in my town, in my hometown, Barquisimeto. And the conductor was late, and I started. I went to the podium and I started to conduct. That was the thing. And I remember I was trying to imitate Herbert von Karaja because he was in all the videos. I never saw him live.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

He was the legend, right?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

He was legend. Berlin Philharmonic, all of that. But he always, in the videos, he conducted with his eyes closed. And I was conducting with my eyes closed. And then I started to listen like people was. They were getting serious. And then when I opened my eyes, I saw the conductor of the orchestra. I said, my career is finished in music. Because I said, you know, I was imitating him. I was imitating the other teacher. I was imitating the big conductors. And then he said, like, oh, keep doing. Keep doing the rehearsal. And then he said at the end of the rehearsal, look, you are good in this. You want to be my assistant conductor. And that was the beginning.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Let me just ask you about Venezuela, because, boy, oh, boy, Sistema kind of put it on the cultural map, but right now it's on the political map. When we spoke before, you were very reluctant to talk politically, but things have really moved on the United States, essentially, it's running Venezuela. What do you think when you think about your country's future right now?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, look, as you know, it's a very difficult situation, but at the same time, I think, you know, it's a moment of that we have to take an opportunity to get out of this very tragic and difficult situation. I think that people are tired of politics. If you talk to a Venezuelan, you know, that is there. They are tired about that polemic thing of politics. They want to get out of the situation. And I think it has to come a new time when we rebuild the country, not only economically, but through the education of people, through a new vision of a new Venezuela that is not only that we are great people, good people, resilient people that do. If not, you know, we are strong and we can build something. You know, I'm part of a program that, you know, have crossed 9, 10, or 11 government. It has not survived. It have, you know, strongly lived, you know, the life of Venezuela in the last 50 years. And it's still there, producing wonderful citizens, not only musicians, citizens, you know, because it's not a musical factor in the systema Sistema is. We use music to transform the life of children that can be doctors, engineers, workers, whatever. This is the thing that we have to see if the country, you know, if we behave as, you know, as an orchestra that maybe an utopia, you know, we can say, like, yes, we cannot live by harmony, but yes, we can create harmony, but we have to be able to listen to each other first, you know, to respect each other, to make justice and then to create something that, you know, work.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

You knew the Chavistas, you know Del C and now, you know, the United States. You've been there for 17 years in Los Angeles, you know, with the Philharmonic. I mean, you're a major figure there. And you are also an immigrant at a time when immigrants are under massive pressure and attack by this particular government and actually, frankly, previous ones, but especially by this one. How do you resolve that in your mind? You know, that half your. Maybe your orchestra is terrified of being rounded up and deported, and yet you are somebody able to maybe be abridged. Do you ever see that?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, yes, yes, I think, you know, we have responsibilities as public figures, but we have to know how to use that. You know, we are in a moment that everything is so flammable. So whatever you say, it creates an opinion and it increase the bad side of. It's incredible because we live in a world that everything is happening so fast that, you know, we are getting like addict to the bad things, you know, to have that information and that.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

So that's really interesting. You're getting addicted to all this. All the bad things.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Exactly. All of this, you know, unrest, all of this fight. We have to open a space where it's not that empathy, you know, and empathy, when you have empathy, you don't have to agree with the other, you know, but you listen to the other. You don't have to respect that, the opinion, but you listen and you create your space to create a bridge and a balance between the two opinions, if not where we can arrive, you know.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

And I was struck by what you said about El Sistema, is that it was about all sorts of disciplines, including the discipline of joy. In other words, that joy is in fact a discipline that needs to be worked on.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Absolutely, yeah. Because harmony is a discipline, you know, Harmony. We only talk about harmony specifically with the chords and all of that. But harmony is a spiritual thing that we live, all of us, you know, and when we discipline our harmony for me, for myself, in this noisy world, what is my exercise every day, you know, to balance my harmony every day, you know, I take my time to be in sight silence, but not in silence completely like a silence that we understand. It's a lot of sounds, it's a lot of voices there and how I can balance that, how I can say something that maybe can heal and not destroy.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Talking about destroy, Obviously, Venezuela had a catastrophic couple of earthquakes, and you are. One of your last performances with the LA Philharmonic is to do a concert for Venezuela. Where will that take place? How do you feel doing that for your own country? What do they mean?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, it's catastrophic because this is like something like, you know, we have one crisis and it comes another one that it creates this very difficult situation. But of course, we have to unite forces and create, you know, ways to support all of this situation, which it will take a lot of time to recover. Because the thing is that sometimes things happen and then in few days people forget because there are other things happening. So that is why for me, taking time to build something that we can think in rebuilding in the future. And look what happened also in Colombia just a few days ago. So I think the earth is talking, you know, to us. And I think this concert is going to be very special.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Do you find young people still really attracted and interested in classical music? You don't think it's a dying art?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Completely? I don't think it's a dying art. It depends how you see it. For example, we went with the Light Philharmonic to Coachella.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Yeah.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

And that was historic because it was.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

That's the great rock concert in the desert in California. I don't know if it's every year.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Every year. Every. Exactly. Every year. And we had the chance to go to. We went there last year and we mixed. We played Bach, Beethoven, Strauss, John Williams, Stravinsky together with, you know, LL Cool J Levy, Cynthia Erivo, David Grohl. We combine all of that and it was beautiful. It was an amazing journey. But you have to. You really have to take the risk. But not as a. It's not an obligation. It's a need. You have to do this and understand that this is a way not to conquer, but to really make people feel that they belong. You know, art is a result of the most beautiful result of humankind.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

You know, now it's no secret that LA on the west coast and New York on the east coast are competing on everything, including their Philharmonics. And one side says, I'm the best, the other says, I'm the best. How are you going to deal with that?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

No, I think they are sisters. You know, I don't see a competition. I think culturally each orchestra is different because their own background, their own lifestyle, cultural, the place what culturally offer. But I don't See a competition between the two orchestras.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

What made you want to take the New York job?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Well, I think it is because I think 17 years, 20 years with the late Philharmonic. It has been such an amazing journey. I don't see this as an end. It's not the end of the book, it's an end of a chapter. It's one of the oldest orchestra in the United states. Same year 1842 was founded the New York Philharmonic, same year of the Vienna Philharmonic. So it's an history. It's a place that I love. I love New York since I came the first time. And I have the chance, you know, to create also a new home, but not leaving the old home.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Apparently you're keeping your apartment just in

[Gustavo Dudamel]

case in Venezuela, you know, I left Venezuela, let's say, to work in Los Angeles. But you never leave your home, you know, it's always your home.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

Did your home survive?

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Yes, yes, it suffer the things, but no, not as others. But yes, you know, you are creating homes. You know, it's the life of a conductor. You know, when you have the chance. That is different with soloists, because soloists, they have to travel everywhere and be different place. When you are a music director in an orchestra, you are settled for a long amount of time where you can develop a home. So I create a home in Los Angeles, now I'm creating a home in New York. So I'm blessed to have.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

You are. And so are they. Gustavo Dudamel, thank you so much for being here.

[Gustavo Dudamel]

Thank you so much.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

And just before he takes over on the east coast, he's going to be going out with a final bash that perfectly blends his love of America and Venezuela. He'll host the benefit a concert for Venezuela next Sunday at the Hollywood bowl and the Proms is available on BBC iPlayer and BBC Sounds for viewers in the UK coming up. With Europe feeling the heat in yet another summer scorcher, we can no longer turn away from climate change. Why trusted information is so vital after the break. Now, here in Britain, we're experiencing yet an another massive heat wave. In fact, the fifth of the season to hit Europe. And the world's oceans reach their highest temperatures ever recognized for July. Now, more than ever, people need reliable information. And in the United States, the federal government's climate.gov website has been considered one of the most trusted sources of climate information. That is, until the Trump administration shut it down. The site's manager, Rebecca Lindsey, was laid off along with all of her colleagues. And she lays out the stakes with Hari Srinivasan Christiane, thanks.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Rebecca Lindsey, thanks so much for joining us. So, in 2025, the Trump administration laid off hundreds of employees of the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Shortly after, the website that was called climate.gov that was a critical source of climate information, was shut down. And as the website's program manager, you were among the 280,000 federal workers who lost their jobs during that period. Rebecca, I guess, first of all, for people who are unaware, what is Climate Us and why does it need to be in the first place?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Climate US is the nonprofit successor of Noah's climate.gov website. We are a public information portal to provide climate information, data, tools, educational resources to the public to help people understand climate change and to make decisions to protect themselves and the things they care about.

[Hari Srinivasan]

So what happened to climate.gov?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

the new administration, in winter of last year, shut down the entire program. I was a federal employee. I was fired within a couple of months. The remainder of my teammates who were federal contractors were removed from their contract and the whole team was basically disbanded.

[Hari Srinivasan]

And you had been working there for how long? Give me an idea of how large the team was and what you would do to put this site together.

[Rebecca Lindsey]

I had been there about 15 years. Climate.gov wasn't just a website. It was a climate education and literacy program that NOAA supported to help NOAA understand what kinds of information the public and teachers and the media wanted about climate and then provide that for them.

[Hari Srinivasan]

So the administration didn't specifically say why this was being shut down. When you go to the old site, there was a message for visitors that said, in compliance with Executive Order 14303, future research products previously housed under climate.gov will be available at noaa.gov climate and its affiliate website. So when you look at that, doesn't the information still exist and isn't it still accessible to Americans?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Well, what you'll notice is when you go to noaa.govclimate that was the homepage of climate.gov has been redirected to that page permanently. And then all of the links on that page that previously pointed users back to resources on climate.gov have been stripped from that page. So essentially, it's what they've done is it's sort of like they renovated a store and had the front door open into a closet. You go in, there's no pathway out to the kinds of information that we had on climate.gov. now, it's true that there is lots of climate information still available from noaa. You will find the climate data, the monthly reports the annual summary of the state of the climate. So you will find things that tell you, for example, that 2025 was so many degrees above the pre industrial average. What you won't find anymore easily is any explanation of why that is. Why the past 10 years have been the hottest years in the historical record. No discussion about the human influence on climate or the potential impacts that the world and the country is going to experience from climate change. They have sort of, they seem to have retreated to a position where all they're going to do is provide data. They're going to have a server, they're going to have, you know, they're going to have files that, you know, people can download and get Data. But what climate.gov did and what climate US is going to do is build that bridge between the data and the public that needs things explained with non technical terms in plain language. We made a big effort to go to the data and develop data visualizations and graphics that tell the story so that we're not just telling people global sea level is rising. We go to the data, we pull it, we make a map, we show people this is how sea level has risen in the past century. That sort of bridge building and interpretation and context, that is what the federal government and NOAA in particular is retreating from.

[Hari Srinivasan]

I mean, you can see the numbers, but without any kind of interpretation. We're not going to make policy decisions on what's important to us based on those numbers if we don't really understand what those numbers mean or what context they're in.

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Yes, I think one thing that we heard a lot, we got a, we had our fair number of critics. In all the years we were operating at noaa, people who deny the reality of climate change would write in and complain to us. And frequently their criticisms and their outrage revolved around this idea that somehow science was trying to tell them what to do. Science is, you know, you're giving us this information and now you're forcing us to make changes. We don't want to make or interfere with the free market in ways we don't like. But the science only tells us what's happening, what we choose to do about it. That is based on our values, based on what matters to us. And the reality is climate responding to human caused climate change is not just going to be about reducing our emissions. We have to think about adaptation and resilience at the same time. I wish that people would accept that science and scientists are not trying to tell us what to do, they're trying to tell us what, what is going to happen and why would we not want to have that information?

[Hari Srinivasan]

Can you tell me a little bit more about the information that is now missing from the government websites?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Climate.gov As I say, technically the site is still there, but the entire Website of the U.S. global Change Research Program, which is the congressionally mandated organization that Congress created in 1990 to help the nation understand and prepare for the impacts of human caused climate change, the administration disbanded all of those scientists and completely took the entire website offline. Now all of the most authoritative reports on climate impacts in the United States have been taken down at the epa. A whole section of the site which had what they called their climate change indicators, which is all kinds of different data driven examples of how climate is affecting things that Americans care about like stream flow and the timing of the spring growing season. All of those different indicators of how climate is affecting our world have been taken down. So there's just, it's again, it's that, that collection of resources that are interpreting the science and the data for a non technical audience. Those are the resources that are disappearing from across the federal science space in this restoration.

[Hari Srinivasan]

You're working with just two other women here, one including your sister who was also part of the agency. But how are you managing to try to keep a copy essentially of an entire federal site with just three people?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Well, so we are very fortunate that in addition to sites like the Internet Archive, there was people began in late 2024 anticipating that the government, the new administration, was not going to be friendly to climate. And so people began making clones of the site and the technology now exists that pretty much anyone can go to a website and clone it. So we have, the technical challenges are actually the least of our challenges. And we were, the fact that we, you know, the fact that we were able to stand up a almost complete clone of the site with just our three people and then we hired contractors using some of the crowdsource funding that we have raised. We, we launched essentially a GoFundMe when we, when we started this initiative. And we used that money to hire web developers to rebuild the clone of the site that launched at the end of June. The hard part is restoring and resuming our day to day operations. The producing stories, engaging with our audience, keeping abreast of what's in the news and trying to understand what kinds of climate information would be relevant to public and current events. That takes a team and it's a team that we don't yet have the resources to hire. I'm the writer and the editor, my sister Mary is the lead data visualizer. We have another woman named Anna Eshelman, who is our graphics, graphic design and layout person. But we really need double that staff and that the government, I would argue, was the right person, the right entity to support that. Because this is in the realm of public education. This is the kind of thing that benefits all of society. And, you know, finding foundations and private donors to support this work is, it's been a challenge and we, you know, we aren't sure, we still aren't sure exactly how much of Climate.gov's operations and activities we're going to be able to actually resume. But we're just, just, we've taken this risk and we're just going to keep trying.

[Hari Srinivasan]

So I wonder, has the tone of the content changed? Have you been writing differently? Have you been a bigger advocate? Because it seems like if you had none of the restrictions of the government, that perhaps some of the content would be different. Or do you have kind of a different goal in mind at this point?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

We do not intend to change our editorial focus or our workflows. We, we take very seriously and we take pride in the fact that some media watchdog websites describe us as pro science but nonpartisan. And that's a reputation and a standard that we, we intend to keep. We do not intend to begin doing more advocacy for getting people to do something about climate. What we may do that's different is NOAA's mission did not extend very deeply into the science of mitigation of climate change. And there is science behind all of these ideas that people are considering for not just reducing emissions, but potentially enhancing ocean natural processes in the ocean to sequester more carbon, planting more trees to absorb more carbon. There's even technology that's being studied and tested to do what's called direct air capture, where they literally come up with ways to suck carbon dioxide out of the air and turn it into fuel or, or turn it into carbon fiber to be used to build things. We might have the capacity, the ability, now that we are no longer under NOAA and solely focused on NOAA's mission, we might have the ability to begin publishing content and explainers about the science behind mitigation. But even if we do sort of widen our editorial scope topic wise, the framing is always going to be the same. It is about the science of these things and not about, not about trying to persuade people or companies to do those things. We want to stick very strongly to nonpartisan providing information.

[Hari Srinivasan]

I wonder if a more climate friendly administration comes back into office. Do you want to hand over the keys to Climate Us? I mean, is the goal here to create something that will outlast every administration that comes in, regardless of who that is?

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Our goal? Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt you there. That is our goal. The fact that it was so easy for this administration to dismantle all of these communication activities around climate science, I think it's, it's, you know, I consider it evidence that we should not make a site that has such an important mission so vulnerable again. I also think that potentially bringing it out of the federal firewall creates an opportunity to partner more broadly with organizations across different levels of government. State governments, tribal governments, local government, communities. And so in a way, it may make the site more able to be the all of society source of information that the country really needs. However, we, we don't know what's going to happen.

[Hari Srinivasan]

The director and managing editor of Climate us, Rebecca Lindsay, thanks so much for your time.

[Rebecca Lindsey]

Thank you.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

And finally, nobody does it better. And she's not so vain. She is the singer Carly Simon, who return this weekend with her first album of original songs since 2008 while also battling a debilitating disease. My dear extremely forlorn friend, I hear your love has stormed out the door. That's called Howl. The very beginning of her new album comes in waves, featuring Simon's trademark poetry and her wit. And it also comes at a time of great personal struggle for the 82 year old artist who recently revealed that she's got Parkinson's disease. In a touching and candid open letter, she also discussed composing her new work, writing There were melodies, verses and ideas written down and tucked away for some unknown future when I would have the time and attention to finish them. Apparently, she says that future is now. And that's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London. Go inside the sports moments that brought us together and made history. From the underdogs to the rivalries and

[Gustavo Dudamel]

the miracles, it sends chills down your spine. It's what sport was all about.

[Christiana Mahmoud]

The new CNN original series, Decades in Sports now streaming on the CNN app.