Iranian Protests Spur Government Backlash

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Amanpour – "Iranian Protests Spur Government Backlash"

Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Bianna Golodryga (sitting in for Christiane Amanpour)
Featured Guests: Abbas Milani (Director of Iranian Studies, Stanford), Douglas Holtz-Eakin (Former CBO Director), Ben Markovitz (Author), Sean Huebler (NYT Bureau Chief), and more.

---

Overview

This episode of Amanpour delves into the recent mass protests in Iran and the government’s violent response, exploring the crisis’ roots, its existential threat to the Islamic Republic, and the role of global actors. The show also includes two other major segments: the criminal investigation into Fed Chair Jerome Powell and its implications for US democracy and economics, and the aftermath of the devastating Southern California wildfires, highlighting recovery challenges and policy questions.

---

Segment 1: The Iranian Protests – “A Hollow Shell Facing Its Gravest Crisis”

Key Discussion Points

• Unprecedented scale and scope of Iranian protests, triggered by economic distress and demand for freedom
• Aggressive crackdown: Communications blackout & hundreds killed ([01:31]-[02:41])
• Abbas Milani describes the regime as a "hollow shell" at its most vulnerable since the 1979 revolution
• The critical role of women in breaking the "fear factor"
• Options for the international community and the United States
• Debate: military intervention vs diplomatic and economic isolation
• Possibilities for a transitional pact and the role of the Iranian diaspora

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Regime’s Erosion of Legitimacy:

  “Despotisms like the Islamic regime survive in fear... That fear has now dissipated. Iranian people don’t fear this bloody regime.” – Abbas Milani ([04:04])

• On Women’s Role:

  “We owe a great deal to Iranian women. They fought for 44 years incrementally to show the world and to show this misogynist regime that they’re not going to be second class citizens.” – Abbas Milani ([07:09])

• On Options for the US:

  "My sense is that the best options are to again isolate the regime diplomatically. Freeze all of their assets. Freeze the assets of their oligarchs..." – Abbas Milani ([08:19])

• On the Dangers of Negotiation:

  “I think the idea of negotiating with this regime at this time is folly... the negotiation should be about how to ease this regime out of power.” – Abbas Milani ([11:04])

• On a ‘Pact de Transition’:

  “If that coalition is formed in Iran, they cannot ignore the Iranian diaspora. The Iranian diaspora is absolutely indispensable for saving Iran out of this morass.” – Abbas Milani ([13:15])

• On Lifting the Information Blackout:

  “I think it’s absolutely indispensable. I hope Starlink is available... It’s a war crime to deny people access to telephone.” – Abbas Milani ([14:40])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Setting up the crisis: [01:31]–[04:04]
• Abbas Milani on regime vulnerabilities: [04:04]–[07:42]
• Women's role, Trump factor, and US options: [07:42]–[09:41]
• US military intervention debate: [09:41]–[11:04]
• "Pact de transition" and diaspora role: [13:15]–[14:22]
• The need for technological support: [14:22]–[15:22]

---

Segment 2: Fed Chair Jerome Powell Under Criminal Investigation – “Banana Republic Territory?”

Key Discussion Points

• Criminal investigation of Fed Chair Powell; seen as unprecedented and destabilizing ([16:23]–[18:11])
• Fed independence as a pillar of global economic stability under threat
• Global historical analogues: Argentina, Turkey, US in the 1970s
• President’s attempts to influence/replace Powell, and consequences for interest rates, US creditworthiness, and institutional norms
• Analysis of the president’s recent populist economic proposals
• Concerns over politicization of economic policy ([22:41]–[24:23])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Global Ramifications:

  “The Fed’s independence... is one of the things on which the strong dollar... is built. Investors’ lack of confidence... is bad for the US interest rates, bad for global trade, bad basically for the global economy.” – Douglas Holtz-Eakin ([18:11])

• On Political Pressure on Central Banks:

  "We saw it in Argentina... in Turkey, where Erdogan has cowed the central bank... The outcome is tremendous amounts of inflation, enormous poor economic performance." – Douglas Holtz-Eakin ([19:22])

• On the Show Fight:

  “If cost overruns were a criminal offense, most of Washington D.C. would be in jail.” – Douglas Holtz-Eakin ([21:17])

• On ‘Banana Republic Territory’:

  “This is what you see when the rule of law is simply discarded and instead you use the rule of the authoritarian.” – Douglas Holtz-Eakin ([22:49])

• Powell’s Defense:

  “This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or... be directed by political pressure or intimidation.” – Powell, via Bianna Golodryga ([16:48])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Powell investigation background: [16:23]–[18:11]
• Historical analogues and consequences: [18:52]–[20:12]
• Presidential political show, tactics, and repercussions: [21:17]–[23:39]
• Populist economic proposals: [24:23]–[24:55]

---

Segment 3: Ben Markovitz & “The Rest of Our Lives” – A Story of Aging, Masculinity, and Family

Key Discussion Points

• Novel: Follows Tom, a middle-aged law professor, confronting marriage breakdown, family, identity, and health on a cross-country road trip
• Inspiration: Exploring the “passive” American male and shifting cultural norms
• Tension between generational perspectives—Tom’s fraught relationship with his children
• Health parallels: Author’s own cancer diagnosis mirrored in protagonist’s journey
• Open endings: The optimism in ambiguity
• Real-life ties: Markovitz’s basketball background parallels with Tom; future writing projects teased

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Marriage and Self-Deception:

  “If you stay married, it’s because you’ve accepted that this is what they’re like and what your life with them is like... It’s like being a Knicks fan.” – Ben Markovitz reading from his novel ([26:42])

• On the Danger of Silence:

  “The danger of his position is that increasingly he’s someone who’s going to feel that nobody really wants to hear from me, and that forces him to lead a secret life.” – Ben Markovitz ([31:20])

• On Writing from Experience:

  “I gave him those symptoms early on... and then as I kept writing, I got sicker and sicker too. And by the end of the first draft, I was going through chemo.” – Ben Markovitz ([33:35])

• On Optimism:

  “The chance of things turning out okay might in the end be more optimistic than the certainty.” – Ben Markovitz ([35:04])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & reading: [26:38]–[27:30]
• Character concept, masculinity, and the “secret life”: [27:38]–[32:36]
• Health storyline, author’s personal journey: [33:35]–[34:26]
• Ending, optimism, future projects: [35:04]–[36:05]

---

Segment 4: One Year After the LA Fires – “Next Level” Destruction and the Road to Recovery

Key Discussion Points

• 2025 LA wildfires: Among the most destructive in state history—80 square miles scorched, 31 killed, 13,000 homes destroyed (~[37:43])
• Many residents still displaced; immense financial and emotional toll; rebuilding lagging for both rich and poor communities
• Federal disaster aid slow, with policy changes under Trump shifting burden to states and localities
• Widening blame: Human error, delayed evacuations, infrastructure shortfalls, and political infighting
• Long-term questions about disaster management, equity, rebuilding in high-risk zones, and community resilience in the face of worsening climate

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Fires’ Scale:

  “These were next level, really. It felt as if the entirety of Los Angeles was on fire at once… 12 fires scattered in this firestorm… an area about three times the size of Manhattan.” – Sean Huebler ([39:47])

• On Financial and Social Impact:

  “Houses are not just shelter, they’re repositories of people’s life savings… It takes a long, long time to rebuild after a disaster often.” – Sean Huebler ([42:18])

• On Recovery and Federal Aid:

  “The Trump administration has taken a different approach to emergency management… The aid has been slower to flow in a lot of places.” – Sean Huebler ([44:27])

• On Systemic Challenges:

  “One big lesson… would naturally be, ‘Don’t build near the wildland.’ But these communities are… old communities… There’s a push on the state level to make people build, not have landscaping within 5ft of their house. Even that has gotten a lot of pushback.” – Sean Huebler ([50:01])

• On Ongoing Risk:

  “The climate scientists… tell us that the dries are drier and the wets are wetter… the conditions that conspired to create this disaster are likely to happen again.” – Sean Huebler ([53:01])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• LA fires context and impact: [37:43]–[41:36]
• Recovery obstacles, insurance, aid shortfall: [41:36]–[44:27]
• Blame and investigation into causes: [44:27]–[49:18]
• Policy reform and climate future: [50:01]–[53:19]

---

Memorable Closing

• Brief spotlight on triumphs at the Golden Globes, including representation milestones ([53:25]-[54:33]):

  “The Secret Agent is a film about memory or the lack of memory and generational trauma... If trauma can be passed along generations, values can too.” – Wagner Mora, Golden Globe winner ([54:02])

---

Summary Table – Key Timestamps

| Topic | Guest(s) | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------|------------------|-----------------| | Iranian protests & crackdown | Abbas Milani | [01:31]-[15:22] | | Fed, Powell investigation | Douglas Holtz-Eakin | [16:23]-[25:07] | | Novel: The Rest of Our Lives | Ben Markovitz | [25:09]-[36:05] | | LA wildfires, disaster response | Sean Huebler | [37:43]-[53:19] | | Golden Globes & closing | — | [53:25]-[54:33] |

---

Tone:
The episode features frank, analytic, and passionate exchanges—urgency on Iran’s crisis, professional concern on US institutions, personal and empathetic reflection in the literary and wildfire segments. The speakers maintain a blend of gravitas, expertise, and nuanced hope.

---

For listeners seeking a comprehensive update on Iran’s perilous moment, the future of US economic governance, the human stories of disaster, and a literary journey through modern masculinity—this episode is a timely and rich resource.

Transcript

[Bianna Golodryga]

What is it about Australia that just hits different? Australia is where we shared our first kiss, where we fell in love.

[Ben Markovitz]

That was 18 years ago now.

[Sean Huebler]

And this is what, your fourth trip back.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.

[Bianna Golodryga]

The ocean, the people, the oysters, so good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's [e-mail] or and start planning the vacation of a lifetime. Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Iranian protesters rise up and security forces crack down. Stanford Professor Abbas Milani joins me on the widespread unrest and what comes next then this unprecedented action should be seen.

[Ben Markovitz]

In the broader context of the administration's.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Threats and ongoing pressure. Fed Chair Jerome Powell fights back after federal prosecutors open a criminal investigation of him and the Central Bank. We look at what this unprecedented action means for the economy and democracy. Also ahead, author Ben Markovitz takes us on a road trip to remember.

[Sean Huebler]

Plus, the place in many ways is built to burn, but these fires were just, they were just next level.

[Bianna Golodryga]

One year after the LA fires, reporter Sean Huebler speaks with Hari Srinivasan about all that was destroyed and what it will take to rebuild. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. The Iranian people's call for freedom are being heard loud and clear around the world despite authorities day long attempt to black out all communications. What began as demonstrations against the dire state of the economy and the cost of living have escalated into a nationwide challenge to the Islamic Republic itself. And now security forces are aggressively moving on the protesters. Hundreds have been killed in the past few days. This according to a U S based rights group. One Tehran resident told CNN that the violence is much worse than you can even imagine. Now it is crisis time for the Iranian regime, but its foreign minister is trying to project a sense of calm. Take a listen.

[Abbas Milani]

From January 10th until now, the situation.

[Sean Huebler]

Has entered a new phase and it is currently under control.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Meanwhile, President Trump is mulling over military intervention in Iran. Let's bring in Abbas Malani, director of Iranian Studies at Stanford and author of the Shah. He was held as a political prisoner by the former Shah's regime and eventually left Iran in 1986. Abbas Malani, thank you so much for joining us. You write in a piece you published just last week that the Islamic Republic is now a quote, hollow shell facing its gravest crisis. Since 1979, we've had a number of experts say exactly that and lay out the differences in terms of why this current crisis is much more dire for the regime than even those that we've seen in the past few years. The most recent in 2022. And that includes regional change post October 7th change, obviously, the weakening of the proxies on Iran's nuclear facilities and the Trump factor. Lay out why, in your view, this is a much more existential threat for the regime than previous crises.

[Abbas Milani]

Despotisms like the Islamic regime survive in fear and survive in creating an image of themselves as omnipotent, both regionally and domestically. That fear has now dissipated. Iranian people don't fear this bloody regime. And the region and the international community has also recognized that this is a hallowed regime. Anyone who had been watching this regime for the past few years would have known that this is a harrowing regime because it is corrupt, because it is rapacious, because it is cronyist, because. And because Mr. Khamenei is a dogmatist, assured of his own wisdom, unwilling to change. If he had an iota of realism, he would have known a year ago that the game is up. And unless they change, they're sinking now. They're sinking.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And you also argue that the real vulnerability is not only economic, but that of legitimacy as well. This is a totalitarian regime that I heard one statistic say has the highest per capita execution rate in the world. And now you are saying they are losing that fear factor of legitimacy, of repression from their own population. This, as much of the country is in the dark, both electricity, cellular, Internet service, despite some starlink availability, what is the next step? Because we have seen where this repression can still be successful, and that is in the mass murder of those that are protesting on the streets.

[Abbas Milani]

I don't think repression can be successful. And again, if you look at the past 10 years, Mr. Khamenei and his regime have used increasing violence. Every time the people of Iran rose up to say, we do not want these policies. We do not want you as a Leader. Look at 2009. Look at 2019. Look at 2024. In 2024, they killed upward of 1,000 minimum. They arrested in their own numbers, 90,000. Two years later, they have this. If they suppress their way, if they kill their way into security now, they will have a bigger uprising later. Because the problem is the incompetence of this regime. The problem is its inability to solve Iran's problem. Imagine tomorrow, they have quieted the people. What are they going to do with the economy? The president of Iran declared two weeks ago that we don't have dollars and we have no way to pay our basic expenses. Where are they going to get this money? Who is going to support them? The EU just banned Iranian diplomats from entering offices of the EU Parliament. I think every government in the world must now follow suit. They must tell this regime, you cannot kill your way out of people's peaceful demand for change, peaceful demand for democracy. And I have to say that breaking the fear factor. We owe a great deal to Iranian women. They fought for 44 years incrementally to show the world and to show this misogynist regime that they're not going to be second class citizens. That broke the back of this regime and now they and virtually 90% of Iranian society says no to the status quo.

[Bianna Golodryga]

So you have the fearlessness of the society as you point out, specifically the women. And as I noted earlier, the Trump factor of it all, following through on his threats to take out and join Israel following their 12 day war with Iran and striking their nuclear facilities and then deposing the head of Venezuela as well. The country with Iran have longstanding relationships going back many decades. So what are the options that you think would be best suited for the United States to take?

[Abbas Milani]

My sense is that the best options are to again isolate the regime diplomatically. Freeze all of their assets. Freeze the assets of their oligarchs, which are spread through Canada, United States, Europe, Malaysia, Singapore. Freeze their assets. Close their diplomatic offices which are often centers for terrorist activities. Tell the Iranian regime that it is no longer considered a viable representative of a great civilization that wants to live peacefully. Iran has been one of the closest allies of Israel before this regime came. This regime has made the destruction of Israel its strategic preference. Why Iranian Jews have lived in Iran for 2,500 years. Iran had the biggest number of Jews living in Iran in 1979. Still, Iran has more Jews living in Iran than any Muslim country. Why should Iran's interest be the destruction of the state of Israel? This is the idiocy that Mr. Khamenei and his ideologues have followed for 45 years. Put Iran on a warpath with Israel. For 45 years, the Shah of Iran defended the right of Palestinians to a state, but also was a very close ally of Israel.

[Bianna Golodryga]

What I haven't heard you mention is a military option for the United States, which the President is reportedly weighing as soon as tomorrow. He is set to meet, per the Wall Street Journal, with his top military officials to discuss some of the options for the U.S. here's what he said on this subject over the weekend on.

[Abbas Milani]

Air Force One, we're looking at it very seriously. The military is looking at it, and we're looking at some very strong options. I think they're tired of being. Being beat up by the United States. Iran wants to negotiate.

[Ben Markovitz]

Yes.

[Abbas Milani]

We may meet with them. I mean, a meeting is being set up, but we may have to act because of what's happening before the meeting.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Okay, so two points I want to raise with you. First, is the president really laying out a red line last week saying that if the Iranian regime targets and kills those civilian protesters, that the United States is locked and loaded and ready to respond? If he doesn't, then what message does that send? Has he boxed himself in? And then what do you make of possible talks that, as we've gotten more details, include the foreign minister actually reaching out, reportedly to Steve Witkoff, the President's envoy.

[Abbas Milani]

Again, it's very difficult to predict what President Trump will do. I think the idea of negotiating with this regime at this time is folly. I know one thing about President Trump. I think he is very worried about his place in history. If he wants to go down in history as someone who made the Abrahamic Accords possible, you cannot then make peace with the regime that has been the most serious enemy of the Abrahamic Accord. No country in the Middle east has worked more against the Abrahamic Accord than the mullahs in Iran. So the idea that when the mullahs are on the ropes, you're going to negotiate with them and give them a lifeline, to me seems contrary to everything that Mr. Trump has said in the past. And I am for negotiation. I've always been for negotiation. But right now, the negotiation should be about how to ease this regime out of power. Remember, this regime came to power with the help of the United States during Jimmy Carter's time. The United States helped this regime by essentially telling the military not to intervene on the Shah's behalf. Now this regime wants to use the United States again to stay in power. The same mistake of the past, I think, I hope, shouldn't be made now.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, you wrote that Western governments misread Ayatollah Khomeini as a stabilizing force in the late 70s. In the last hour, I interviewed Jack Goldstone, who I'm sure you know, is a political scientist and specializing in revolutions and had co authored a piece that has received a lot of coverage over the weekend as well with Karim Sajapour. And what he told me is that he thinks that. That following, of course, the Supreme Leader his removal or his death, however that ends following his leadership. He thinks there's room for a deal with the Revolutionary Guard and some sort of civilian secular leaders to remove the clerical leadership in exchange for at least a temporary stabilizing leadership from these forces. What do you make of that idea?

[Abbas Milani]

I think that's a possible idea. But I think if they want peace, they cannot have any semblance of the current regime. It is. And I think if that coalition is formed in Iran, they cannot ignore the Iranian diaspora. The Iranian diaspora is absolutely indispensable for saving Iran out of this morass. And unless they are included in this grand coalition, in political science they call it a pact de transition. I have written about pacte transition Iran for four years. And I said to me that is an ideal way to move forward. But now with a very increasely organized diaspora, with the power that the Crown Prince has accrued the name of Pahlavi, the political capital that has accrued to his name and to his family's name. Inclusive pact. An inclusive pact that includes everyone who wants a democratic, secular Iran is I think very much in the realm of possibilities.

[Bianna Golodryga]

In the final few seconds here, how critical is it for the US for Western companies and countries, any sort of technological wherewithal to to lift this information blanket on the country and expose through the Internet, through access what is going on on the streets?

[Abbas Milani]

I think it's absolutely indispensable. I hope they do it. I hope Starlink is available. I hope other technologies that I know are available is made available by Silicon Valley to help Iran from this new prison that the Iranian regime has created around its people. It's a war crime. It is a war crime to deny people access to telephone. Domestic lines of telephone are shut down and at this moment this shameless foreign minister of Iran takes us European ambassadors and tells them all is quiet. On the Iranian front, it isn't.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And the death toll continues to rise. Abbas Milani, thank you so much for your time and for your thoughtfulness. We appreciate it.

[Abbas Milani]

My pleasure.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.

[Anderson Cooper]

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are living with life altering losses.

[Sean Huebler]

Loss is something you have to navigate. It's not a thing where time heals all wounds.

[Ben Markovitz]

My guest is legendary rock musician, writer, poet Patti Smith.

[Sean Huebler]

They're sacred wounds. They're not going to heal.

[Anderson Cooper]

You learn to live with Them talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about.

[Ben Markovitz]

This is all there is.

[Anderson Cooper]

Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Alarm bells are ringing on Wall street and in Washington after federal prosecutors opened up a criminal investigation of Fed Chair Jerome Powell and the central bank. Right after the news broke, Powell looked straight at a camera and told the world that Trump is threatening him for not doing what the President wanted on interest rates.

[Sean Huebler]

The threat of criminal charges is a.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of.

[Ben Markovitz]

What will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.

[Bianna Golodryga]

The independence of the Federal Reserve is a bedrock principle of US economic policy, and the DOJ's actions appear to be the latest in a string of moves against the President's perceived enemies. Here to discuss is former Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Holtz Eakin. Douglas, it is good to see you. As I said to my last guest in the last hour, I think we've overexhausted the term unprecedented, but it is apt in this case, a criminal investigation of a sitting Fed chair. I guess maybe the writing could have been on the wall. And it is still a stunning headline to read from an economic and institutional standpoint because I know there are a lot of legal experts and by the way, we should note that Jay Powell is a trained lawyer. There appears to be no legal standing for this case, but just the headline itself and the economic damage that something like this could do for the gold standard of the United States around the world. What is that? How alarming is that to you?

[Anderson Cooper]

It's tremendously alarming. You know, the Fed's independence is, as you mentioned, a bedrock principle of US Economic policy. It is one of the things on which the strong dollar, which has served as a reserve currency, is built. And investors lack of confidence in the stability of the dollar would lead them to shy away from Treasuries. That's bad for US Interest rates, that's bad for the pace of global trade, bad basically for the global economy. So this isn't a minor skirmish of a political nature off on the side. This is at the centerpiece of global financial markets and it is central to the operation of things as they are now configured.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Let me pick up on that last line that we heard from Powell in that video where he says this is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set Interest rates based on evidence in economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. Explain what happens to a country, to an economy, when the latter happens, because that's something that we've actually seen play out in real life. It's not a hypothetical.

[Anderson Cooper]

We've seen this in Argentina with Peronistas and the. The takeover of the central bank, the issuing of money for political purposes and timing. You're going to go buy an election. In blunt terms, we've seen it in Turkey, where Erdogan has cowed the central bank. The outcome in both cases is tremendous amounts of inflation. Pardon me, enormous amounts of poor economic performance. And it's not a hypothetical for the United States. It wasn't that long ago, the 1970s, that then President Richard Nixon cowed the sitting chairman of the Federal Reserve, Arthur Burns, and Burns operated monetary policy for the purpose of Nixon's reelection. We saw sustained high inflation, sustained high unemployment in the 70s, and most of the efforts of the Federal Reserve since have been to avoid that kind of a situation.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Let's remind our viewers how this particular headline and narrative came about. And that was when the President really, as he's been expressing his frustration with Jay Powell for a number of years now, honed in on the cost of renovating the Federal Reserve building itself. There's video from, I believe, over the summer where. Where the two men in hard hats were touring the facility and the President took out a sheet of paper where he talked about how the expenses and projected costs have just increased significantly. You see Powell then confront him saying those numbers are just wrong. First of all, federal projects, including the President's, and you're looking at the renovation of the White House right now in the ballroom. They routinely go over budget, but just that. This alone is what Che Powell describes as a pretext for this all. What do you make of it?

[Anderson Cooper]

Look, if cost overruns were a criminal offense, most of Washington D.C. would be in jail. I mean, that's the blunt reality of it. And this is not that. What the President did was put on a show to try to intimidate Powell. He used the wrong numbers. He gave the cost of renovating three buildings, not two. Certainly if you're going to renovate two historic buildings that are adjacent to the Washington Mall and are built on top of some highly questionable asbestos foundations, it's going to cost a lot of money. We know that these are historic buildings, so no one believes there's any substance. The question was, could they find a way to get Powell to do their bidding? They have not found a way. They've now decided to try to remove him one way or another. They've come to the conclusion the President can't fire the chair chairman of the Federal Reserve, so they've stopped. That calls for that. Instead they're now trying to get the Department of Justice to remove him on their behalf. So none of that is honorable and none of it is something that should ever happen. There are two real great fallouts to this. Number one is the impact on the Federal Reserve's policies, the perception of the global capital markets and global and US Economic performance. And the second is the future of the Fed, which has been damaged already by the President's actions. And this will damage it further.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, I believe Janet Yellen this morning responded by saying we're sort of on the precipice of banana Republic territory here. Do you agree with.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes, this is, this is what you see when the rule of law is simply discarded and instead you use the rule of the authoritarian. That's what they're trying to do here. He is trying to intimidate Jerome Powell into going away. And there are some firewalls here I think it's important for listeners to know about. One firewall is in fact global capital markets. It is not in the President's interest to have long term interest rates in the United States go up 50, 100, 200 basis points. So if markets react poorly, he's got a problem. The second Firewall is the U.S. senate, which has to confirm anyone he might choose to replace Powell. He could lose the votes in the Senate to get that done and then it's a Pyrrhic victory. He gets rid of Powell and he can't replace him. And then the third and the most important one is actually Powell himself. Powell couldn't stay at the Federal Reserve through 2028 and he made the President's life miserable.

[Bianna Golodryga]

So, right, he's on the board. Yeah. His tenure as Fed Chair ends in May and he had been expected to just leave the Fed in total. But this may actually keep him on the board longer for this very reason to see any sort of attempt to maintain the Fed's independence. Can I just ask you quickly on a separate note, to weigh in on the President, a Republican, floating a 1 year 10% cap on credit card interest payments and on housing by boosting large investors from buying, from booting, sorry, large investors from buying single family homes while also Talking about buying $200 billion in mortgage bonds to lower costs. What do you make of that policy?

[Anderson Cooper]

All three of Those look like the panicked moves of a president whose party is up for reelection in the fall and is in trouble. None of those by themselves make any sense whatsoever. Some are incredibly counterproductive. The 10% interest rate cap will simply eliminate access to credit cards for the low income, riskier borrowers that he's trying to help. And so these are counterproductive sort of publicity seeking efforts that allow a politician to say, gee, I'm on your side, but when push comes to shove, don't make things better.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, You, I believe on your blog have described it as bad policy with superficial political appeal. Douglas Holz Egan, thank you so much. Good to see you. Come back.

[Anderson Cooper]

Take care.

[Bianna Golodryga]

All right. Well, next to an acclaimed novel that explores themes of aging, privilege, parenthood and more, the Rest of Our Lives was shortlisted for the prestigious Booker Prize. And it tells the story of Tom, an East coast law professor who drops his daughter off at college and, well, just keeps driving west. He revisits family and old flames and stews on the past, all while trying to ignore his increasingly alarming health issues. British American Ben Markovitz is the author of the book. And he joins the program from none other than Nashville bookshop owned by award winning writer Ann Patchett. Ben, welcome to the program. Congratulations on the book. I read it, I believe in a day and a half. My stepdaughter, we all read it on vacation and it's a page turner. You can't put it down. So bravo to you on writing a great book. As I laid out, it's the story of a middle aged dad of two, currently suspended college professor. He's in an unhappy relationship. Relationship which he says dates back to an affair that his wife had. Quote, when our son was 12 years old, my wife had an affair with a guy called Zack Zursky. We learn a little bit more about Zach and how mediocre he was and nonetheless had an affair with Tom's wife. And then you decide to set a deal. Or Tom decides to set a deal for himself, which he follows, which he discusses in the following passage, which I believe you're going to read for us.

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah. Should I read that now?

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yes, please.

[Ben Markovitz]

Perfect. All right. You fall in love with somebody when you're 26 and you see them in all kinds of different lights and according to their potential. But after years and years of marriage and shared parenting and all the other shared decisions you have to make just to get through the days, you accumulate a lot of data about that person that after a while just seems more or less accurate. If you continue to have illusions, that's your fault. So if you stay married, it's because you've accepted that this is what they're like and what your life with them is like, and you stop expecting them to do or give you things you know perfectly well they're unlikely to do or give you. It's like being a Knicks fan. But I also made a deal with myself. When Miriam goes to college, you can leave, too.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. Miriam is Tom's daughter. Tell us about the premise of the book and what drew you to write this story.

[Ben Markovitz]

I was interested in a story of a guy who isn't the one who's done anything wrong. And I wanted to explore how that would play out in their marriage and maybe get him to confront the possibility that his sense that he hasn't done anything wrong is part of the problem.

[Bianna Golodryga]

He's also a bit of a passive man as well. You're right. He hasn't done anything wrong. He's not the one who started the affair. And yet you sense the frustration of his wife and those around him by not being more emotional, by not being and expressing more of his opinions and objections. Why describe him that way?

[Ben Markovitz]

Well, it seems an interesting kind of male problem to deal with. The one who doesn't get angry enough, who doesn't intervene enough. And I think one of the things he comes to realize is that you have to be willing to get angry, even if it puts you in the wrong, just to deal with the problems that otherwise get swept under the carpet.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Or in the passenger seat of a car. In this sense, because so much of this book takes place as Tom is on a road trip after dropping his daughter off, as we noted, in college, and not returning home, I believe, to New Jersey.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Right.

[Bianna Golodryga]

But instead heading out west. Tell us about this. You know, for a reader, it did feel almost like a confessional, or as if we were either a passenger in the car alongside Tom. Was that your intent?

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah. I mean, I. Yes. I mean, I always want to make the prose sound like the kind of thing you could actually say, as opposed to the kind of thing you can only write. And I felt like if you were going to get into a personality like Tom's, to have his conversation with you was probably the best way to do it. But one of the things that I realized as I was writing the book is something that I do myself. I don't know if you do it, but when you're having an argument with somebody, even when you're not in their presence, you often keep up the conversation. And one of the things that happens to him as he drives west. The further he gets away from his wife, the more he keeps talking to her in his head and trying to figure out what went wrong in their marriage and maybe even what he can do to fix it. So that even though the premise of the book is that it's a kind of running away from your wife story, it's also, I hope, a love story. I hope that comes across by the end.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yes, of course. And listen, even amongst our producers, there were differing views on Amy, his wife, and whether we were more sympathetic to her or not, I was more the latter.

[Sean Huebler]

How about you?

[Bianna Golodryga]

I was not sympathetic to Amy. I was more of a fan of Tom's, and I appreciated that he started to open up and to give pause to perhaps his past behavior, at least by not expressing it enough as he's driving literally away further and further from his life back home. It's also a bit of a story about political correctness. You touch on it. This is a middle aged white man who is currently suspended from his job as a law professor after advising on a case against an NBA player, an NBA team owner who allegedly made racist allegations. Where did that, where did that point come from? It wasn't necessary.

[Ben Markovitz]

You mean the NBA thing?

[Bianna Golodryga]

I mean, no, not the NBA. I know you were a basketball player too, but just a, you know, sort of white middle aged man who. I know Tom's daughter Mary chants, you know, angry white male. That comes up too. But it seems as if it's told from a perspective we don't hear much about. And that is a middle aged white male.

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I figured if you take a guy like that and you send him off across the country, what's he going to talk about to his old college buddies and ex girlfriends as he visits with them? And it occurred to me, probably he would want to talk about the way the culture has left him behind. I don't mean to say that I think the culture has left him behind or he's even justified in those thoughts, but he gets in an argument early on in the book with his son, who basically tells him more or less, look, I don't want to hear about your sex problems, dad, which is totally fair. I don't really want to hear your political opinions because I think, you know, you're a bit of a dinosaur. And I also don't want to hear your privileged complaints about life. And all of these arguments seem totally reasonable to me from the point of view of the son. But Tom says to him in response, you know, when his son says, why are you telling me this stuff? And Tom says, look, I'm not yet ready to lead a totally secret life. And I think the danger of his position is that increasingly he's somebody who's going to feel that nobody really wants to hear from me, and that forces him to lead a secret life. And I wanted to show that that's, you know, there's something right in him to resist that, even if it, you know, it risks him getting into trouble.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, that was, I thought, really sort of a powerful and painful revelation that you expose from Tom and his relationships, even with his, you know, closest, nearest and dearest, his children, his wife, that he never felt close enough to go that deep. And when he attempted, you know, he was told, you know, to his face, I don't want to be talking about this, but you mentioned his son. And where I did get frustrated with Tom was not taking his health seriously enough. And that's what his son really. Kudos to him for focusing on. To constantly say, you know, you need to go to the doctor. Something's wrong with you. As you started writing the book, you started experiencing some of the same symptoms as well. Breathlessness, a puffy face, broken veins. Tom just dismisses it as, you know, Covid. Long Covid. Can you talk about the similarities between what you were going through, ultimately diagnosed with cancer, and what Tom's experiencing?

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah, I mean, I gave him those symptoms early on in the writing process because I thought it was part of the general picture of a guy who feels like things are breaking down in his life and he can't quite understand why. And then as I kept writing, I got sicker and sicker, too. And by the end of the first draft, I was going through chemo. And I want to say, in Tom's defense, it turns out what we had was a very hard thing to diagnose. I mean, Tom keeps saying, I went to the doctor. He thought it was long Covid. And the truth is, I went to the doctor, and they thought it was long Covid, and I wanted to write. Also, as I was getting sick, I had this sense of a physical alarm bell ringing, something telling me that there's something going wrong in your life and you have to deal with it. And I think I dealt with it a little bit more promptly than Tom. But that alarm bell seemed like a really interesting thing to write about, even if it led me somewhere I didn't want to go.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, you also, as you mentioned that this is sort of a love story, too. Between Tom and Amy. And I don't want to give up and give out too much of the book. But we are left sort of, you know, wondering where things end with Tom both health wise and in his relationship with Amy. I obviously that was intentional on your part, but are you more of an optimist? Are you, you know, even my family members and I were discussing, like, what do you think happened? Would you like readers to walk away more on an optimistic note?

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, also I wanted to leave it hanging because I thought if I made it too conclusive one way or the other, it would just seem sentimental and actually maybe ultimately more depressing that the chance of things turning out okay might in the end be more optimistic than the certainty.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Again, similarities between you and Tom playing basketball is one of them. And I believe we have some video of you when you played semi pro right, in Germany. This was your submission video of you playing basketball. Basketball is when you're not in a car and when Tom is. Yeah, when you're not in the car with Tom in this book, you're with him as he's on a basketball court somewhere. Briefly, can you tell us what you're working on next, Ben?

[Ben Markovitz]

Yeah, I want to write. I'm writing a novel about the other stage of life, the beginning when you start falling in love with people. And it's told from the woman's point of view. It's a kind of love story set among the academic classes.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Well, we can't wait to read that again in our morning meeting this morning, one of our producers said, I would have loved to have heard this story from Amy's perspective. So maybe will get a chance to do just that or something similar. Ben Markovitz, Congratulations on the book. It is a great read. I hope you'll pick one up a copy up. Appreciate the time and we'll be right back after this short break.

[Sean Huebler]

Shopping is hard, right? But I found a better way. Stitch fix online Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want. No subscription required. And he sends just for me, pieces plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started [e-mail] Spotify. That's stitchfix.com Spotify. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Abbas Milani]

We're going to explore how your diet.

[Sean Huebler]

Can shape your face, how you can.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Boost your stamina like Olympians just by.

[Abbas Milani]

How you breathe and how your child's.

[Sean Huebler]

Nighttime breathing can impact their development.

[Ben Markovitz]

Most importantly, we cover practical and immediately.

[Sean Huebler]

Actionable ways to improve our health one.

[Abbas Milani]

Breath at a time, even the way.

[Sean Huebler]

That your tongue is currently sitting in your mouth. Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Now. It has been a year since a series of deadly fires tore through Southern California which left nearly 80 square miles burned, forced tens of thousands to flee their homes and claimed the lives of at least 31 people. Many gathered at an emotional vigil last week mourning those that had died and the neighborhoods that had been lost. More than 7 in 10 of Altadena residents are still detected displaced as rebuilding destroyed homes has proven to be challenging. Sean Huebler is the Los Angeles bureau chief for the New York Times, and she joins Hari Sreenivasan to take stock of the progress so far.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Bianna, thanks. Shawn Huebler, thanks so much for joining us. You know, unfortunately, it has become standard now for people to hear about essentially, fire season in California. And every year you'll see some headlines and so forth. Here we are a year after some of the biggest fires. But help our audience kind of put in perspective what happened last year with the Eaton fire and the Palisades fire. How significant were they?

[Sean Huebler]

In a lot of ways, it was kind of a perfect storm. What happened last year, it was wildfire is not unusual in California. That happens. The place in many ways is built to burn. But these fires were just they were just next level, really. It felt as if the entirety of Los Angeles was on fire all at once. It scarcely rained for about six months before the fires broke out. So it was very dry last year. On top of that, there had been several years of rain, particularly wet years. So there was a lot of vegetation. On top of that, the Santa Ana winds, which are famous here, had been kind of supercharged by an upper atmospheric condition that had, you know, really made them even it had turned them into extreme, really extreme winds. And on top of that, I mean, Los Angeles just generally is a place.

[Ben Markovitz]

Where.

[Sean Huebler]

There'S a housing shortage. There are a lot of houses and neighborhoods and communities that have built up in areas that are fire prone. So there were a lot of homes and human fuel in these areas that were near Wildlands. And so the Palisades are on the coast near the Santa Monica Mountains. The Eaton fire took place in an area where there are a lot of communities in the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains. It was peak, you know, really peak fire conditions.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

The numbers in your story are Staggering. These fires tragically killed 31 people. They destroyed 13,000 homes, 16,000 buildings. I mean, as someone who has seen and covered disasters in California, earthquakes, wildfires. Had you seen anything like this?

[Sean Huebler]

I've seen a lot of disaster in California. It's unfortunate but true. And these were, as I said, these were next level. This Los Angeles burns, but not this much of it at once. There were 12 fires scattered in this firestorm across, across the region. The firefighters here were stretched at one point across five fires at one time. And not just regular fires. These are big, big wildfires. The burn scars cover a total area of about 80 square miles. It's an area about three times, for reference, about three times the size of Manhattan. So, no, I haven't seen anything in Los Angeles quite like this. This was a historic fire. The Eaton and Palis are among the most destructive fires in state history at.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

This point in your piece, you and your team wrote one year after the LA fires. Hope, Blame and debt was the title of it, you write. More than 70% of residents who were displaced remain. So while 4 out of 10 fire survivors have taken on debt and almost half have wiped out much of their savings, according to the most recent survey by the Department of Angels, a nonprofit advocacy group for survivors of the LA wildfires. I mean, but put that, that those numbers and those people kind of in perspective here. When you're talking about block after block and house after house completely gone, you also are pointing out in this story some significant inequities. One neighbor has the ability to rebuild and the other does not.

[Sean Huebler]

I mean, if you can imagine, in Los Angeles in particular, houses are not just, they're not just shelter, they're repositories of people's life savings. And so, so for a lot of folks, their retirement was tied up in these houses. Some of them inherited the property and so on. So it was an extreme loss for almost anyone. And even including people of means, for that matter. It takes a long, long time to rebuild after a disaster often. And a lot of folks had issues with insurance, with, with underinsurance, with houses that were uninhabitable because of toxic smoke contamination. And there's been an issue with federal disaster assistance not coming in. There have been a lot of reasons why rebuilding has taken an especially long time. And honestly, I have to say we were looking for signs that, that the Palisades, which is richer, would be rebuilding more quickly than, say, Altadena, which is more middle class, middle income. But at the moment, both of them look a lot alike. Only A handful of houses in either place have been rebuilt to the point where people can actually move back into them. We anticipate that that will change in the coming year, though. It's likely that for a lot of folks whose insurance covers living expenses, things like that, that insurance coverage is going to run out and those folks are going to have to, you know, whether to cut their losses or whether to pay, continue to pay out of pocket and worsen their debt.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

So we've talked a little bit about the human cost. The fires are apparently responsible for $131 billion in property and capital losses. State officials have asked the federal government for about $40 billion, but the federal government hasn't kicked that back. I mean, it's only been about 6 billion. So what is the Trump administration's reasoning for withholding any of the funds?

[Sean Huebler]

Well, initially, the Trump administration seemed willing to help and promised to help. And early on, the fires broke out before the president took office. And so initially there was money to rebuild. About $6 billion kind of flowed to the state for rebuilding. But the Trump administration has taken a kind of different approach to emergency management and disaster aid. In the past, the communities that have been hit by disasters and states have relied on the federal government for these kind of really big ticket costs that cover things like infrastructure and school rebuilding, roads and long term assistance. And not just in California, but in other disaster areas as well. The, the administration has been kind of seeking to shift those costs less toward the federal government and more toward the states, more toward the communities themselves. And so the aid has been slower to flow in a lot of places. The reasoning isn't entirely clear, but what it's translated into in California is about a year long lag for this money. And it's become a real point of contention. There's a sense that kind of a growing sense that the deteriorated relationship between Governor Gavin Newsom, who's a Democrat and a leader in the Democratic Party, and the president has played into it. That relationship isn't what it was during his first term. But just generally speaking, there's a different policy toward disaster aid from this administration. In any case, the money has been really slow to flow.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

So was that any different at the end of the Biden administration versus how the Trump administration is responding to the states request?

[Sean Huebler]

No. Yeah. The Biden administration was very quick to sign emergency orders and declarations and to, to help financially, you know, in that year.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Now we have seen also a recharacterization of the people who right at the fires. Let's say the La Fire department authorities, they were kind of hailed as heroes for getting some of the stuff done. And now we've had have legal proceedings against almost every part of the chain of exactly who's responsible. Was there a reservoir that should have been filled more? Should the fire department have staged people in places earlier? What did they know? When did they know it?

[Sean Huebler]

Yeah, there's a lot of blame. One of the issues that's come out of this fire is the extent to which human error may have factored into making it worse than it otherwise would have been. One of the things about Wildfire is that you have to put them out early, otherwise when they catch on, they're very, very difficult, almost impossible to put out. And there's just been a lot of blame to go around. The Palisades fire, for example, an investigation has found that it was a rekindle, that it was caused because of smoldering embers from a fire the week before that the fire department thought it had put out, but. But hadn't. It had burned kind of underground in the wildland and then when the wind started to stir, it had rekindled and burned into the city. That's an issue. There are issues around whether enough engines were pre deployed in the area, whether a shift of about a thousand firefighters could have been held over and wasn't. There was a reservoir that was offline for repairs that was owned by the city. Why did that happen? The mayor was out of the country on a diplomatic trip at the time the fire broke out. She hurried back, but people in the Palisades didn't really support her to begin with and they really haven't forgiven her since. In Altadena, the evacuations were late in parts of town and all but one of the people who died there died in, in that area where the black community had built up, this neighborhood. And so there's a lot of anger there. There are serious questions about that. Plus there have been questions for the insurance commissioner. There are complaints that the state has not held the line on insurers. And there are complaints also, as I said earlier, about the Trump administration and the federal money not arriving yet. So there's a lot of, a lot of anger.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Are there systems that have now been held accountable that have been made better? I mean, there was a recent report that said that while the frontline responders acted decisively and in many cases heroically in the face of extraordinary conditions, the events underscored the need for clearer policies, stronger training, integrated tools and improved public communication. The LA Fire Department themselves said, look I mean, this is, they're basically saying that this isn't all just our fault. They reflect leadership decisions, legacy systems and long standing structural constraints. So in the wake of something like this, have those kinds of changes been made where if something like this were to happen again, that we would respond better, faster, save more lives?

[Sean Huebler]

Yeah, that kind of change is very difficult. It sounds easy, but it's not. There's a housing crunch in Los Angeles. One big lesson from the fires would naturally be don't build near the wildland. But these communities are, you know, decades, hundreds. You know, they're, they're old communities. They've been there for a long time. There's. Are we going to take away, as I said, the life savings of these thousands of people and not, not allow houses near the near high fire zones? A lot of Los Angeles county is in a high zone, so that's an issue. Even smaller things like building a fire break around your house, there's a push on the state level to make people build, not have landscaping within 5ft of their house. Here even that has gotten a lot of pushback. People don't want to give up their shade trees, don't want to give up their English gardens. I mean, the single family homes in Southern California, that's the California dream. It's sacrosanct and people don't want to give it up in a lot of ways. So that's an issue. It's easier said than done. As for the leadership, this is an election year. The mayor is up for re election. She's got two challengers at least, who've lost homes. In the Palisades fire. There are investigations, there are at least a half a dozen investigations into these fires, into who did what when, who knew what when, who might have dropped the ball or made an error. And there's also a growing appreciation, I think though, that these kinds of disasters are, have gotten worse. I mean, the swings in climate have gotten worse. And so they're something we're going to have to face more often.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Yeah, I was saying, you know, when you talk about hurricane force winds on the California coastline while there are fires raging, I mean, how much of this just could have been a fluke incident that yes, our climate is changing and our fires are getting worse, but that there might not have been a way to predict or prepare for something so massive. At the same time, there's a strong.

[Sean Huebler]

Argument just to say that it could have been predicted. I mean, the weather service was predicting weeks in advance that this wind was about to kick up and there's a strong understanding of red flag conditions here. I mean, now Los Angeles, if it understands anything here. People here understand fire. They know fire weather. It's a fair point that the leadership here should have seen it coming and some leaders did see it coming. And the preparation sort of varied across the board that way. As for it being a fluke, I don't know that it's going to be that. I mean, the climate scientists that we've spoken to tell us that, you know, that the dries are drier and the wets are wetter here and the conditions that kind of conspired to create, to nurture this disaster are likely to happen again. So the question, though is how adept are we going to become at fighting these fires and what kind of resources are we going to put into it and how much are we willing to sacrifice?

[Hari Sreenivasan]

The Los Angeles bureau chief for the New York Times, Shawn Huebler, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for joining us.

[Sean Huebler]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And finally for us, movie awards season is in full swing with many film and TV's heaviest hitters taking home Golden Globe trophies last night, including Paul Thomas Anderson's One Battle After Another, which bagged four Chloe Zhao's Hamnet and the Netflix limited series Adolescence, which saw Owen Cooper become the youngest ever winner of the supporting actor award. History was also made by the Secret Agents star Wagner Mora, who is the first Brazilian to win best male actor in the drama category, expressing his gratitude. Here's a clip from Mora's acceptance speech.

[Anderson Cooper]

The Secret Agent is a film about memory or the lack of memory and generational trauma.

[Ben Markovitz]

I think that if trauma can be.

[Hari Sreenivasan]

Passed along, generations values can too.

[Bianna Golodryga]

So this is to the ones that.

[Abbas Milani]

Are sticking with their values in difficult moments.

[Bianna Golodryga]

A lovely message of strength and resilience. All right, well, that is it for now. Remember, you can always catch us online on our podcast and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching. Goodbye from New York.