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At First Horizon bank, our roots stretch back over 160 years. Through the decades, there have been some big changes, but some things never changed.
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Like our commitment to helping clients do big things, but still providing the small touches that make banking personal.
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Because when you get the best of a big bank and a small bank, the future shines a little brighter on your horizon. First Horizon Bank. Hello everyone and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week. Is Ukraine's future now tied to the war in Iran? President Volodymyr Zelensky fears it might be. He joins me as his country gets some long awaited and much needed cash.
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It's really the question of our life, of the surviving, of defending. So we need this money very much.
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Then dire straits, ceasefire, but no end to the war on Iran. Just how does the world get out of this conflict? I asked Nate Swanson, who worked on this issue for both the Trump and Biden administrations. Also on the program, a desperate escape from North Korea. How two brothers and their young children reached freedom after 10 years of planning. And the future is peace. The hope of a Palestinian and an Israeli whose friendship was born out of such deep grief. They join us with a profound plea for a new beginning. Plus, with Iranian cultural gems left in ruins from my archives, how the deep history of ancient Persia fascinated the world and once lured in an unexpected tourism boom. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's been yet another no good, very bad week for President Trump. Cracks appearing in the MAGA movement at home and abroad. A key ally in Europe, Hungary pivoting hard towards the European Union this week as MAGA star Viktor Orban's successor takes the reins. Who's benefiting from that? Well, Ukraine for the moment. The pro Putin Orban had blocked a much needed loan. But late this week new Hungary gave the green light to more than $100 billion in life saving funds to Kyiv, a much needed reprieve as Ukraine struggles for survival and for America's attention. While the war on Iran uses up many of the weapons Kyiv needs to defend itself. But President Zelenskyy is making the best of a bad situation, making new deals with Persian Gulf states with its battle tested drone expertise. So what does he hope for in future from President Trump? I asked Alinsky who joined me from the presidential office and he started by telling me how essential these new EU funds are for Ukraine.
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God bless. We will have it. For us, it's huge, very important. And this is not only Strengthening our armies, also how to defend all the energy objects we need to prepare for the next winter. So it's also about social, financial support and et cetera. So this is very important decision. It's really the question of our life, of the surviving, of defending. So we need this money very much.
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And let me ask you also, because obviously the war on Iran is detracting attention and maybe even equipment from you. Do you feel that? Tell me how it's impacted the kind of equipment, anti ballistic missile defense and the other stuff.
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So this is very important. And of course, according to the big challenge in the Middle east war in Iran and all these packages are in risk. God bless that United States didn't close intelligence for us and didn't stop anti ballistic missiles. But be honest, small number we had, not too much.
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You've said for Putin, a long war in Iran is a plus. President Trump has essentially, I don't think he's called it a ceasefire. I mean they've extended it until they can get proper negotiations with Iran. Is this, do you think this is hopeful? The fact that the hot war is, is on maybe being shelved for the moment
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in any way. I don't know if it's ceasefire or, or not, but in any way, any pauses in any war. I think this is good because during any kind of pauses you don't lose people. So I don't know what money will Russia make on the lifting of sanctions during all these decisions in the Middle east as of course for us it's challeng challenge but the biggest challenge for any country, for any nation, any religions and etc is to lose people. So we support ceasefire, we support any pauses between us sometimes during Easter, during Christmas, during New Year, during any kind of even days when people can have, I don't know, just meetings with their children, when soldiers can. Right, let her speak and have some rest. And I think it's great.
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Let me ask you then because while they're trying to figure out a ceasefire and an end to the U S Iran conflict, what about the Russia Ukraine conflict? Where are the ceasefire talks there that the United States was, you know, meant to be mediating?
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Russia doesn't want ceasefire and between us, I'm sure that they don't want to stop this war, but we support ceasefire. Where in this case now America. They shifted to the Middle east and they are deeply in Iranian question. I don't see now the, you know, the opportunity to meet today or tomorrow until the question the case of Iran will not be close or some fundamental ceasefire.
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Something like this, well, that's having to really rely on another war until you end yours. You have said that President Trump does not want to irritate Putin and is trying to act like a negotiator rather than, you know, to take sides. Tell me, you know, what you think now about the United States, the reliability of the Trump administration. Who are you depending most on now?
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First of all, I think that
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it's
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big risks when you think that you have to close one war and then mediate another. I think that it doesn't work this way because you have to think about security. We don't have too much negotiation group from the United States. And in this case, I think it's a challenge that the same group is trying to manage both. And I think what is important not to forget about Ukraine, because we have really full scale invasion and big war on the land. Ukraine is already in such big tragedy. So we have to find a way how to think and manage in parallel way. This is what I think the question is. If we want to stop Putin, we have to say Putin that he's not right. And if we start any kind of format of dialogue with Putin with the question, look, we have to find some compromise for you and will you be able so kind or etc. All this, you know, I'm not sure that it works. Putin is guilty. And that's why I think that President Trump, President Xi Modi, they have to speak with Putin that he has to stop this war. They can't speak with Ukraine that you have to stop the war. We are not aggressors in this war. That's why it's not, I mean, helpful to stick with us, to stop. To stop what? We have to stop altogether Putin and we can stop it with weapon because he doesn't want to speak.
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Can I ask you one last question? And it's kind of a funny one. The New York Times is reporting that Ukrainian officials sort of raised the idea of naming a piece of Donbass, which you're fighting over Donny Land during some ceasefire talks. Is that possible? Is that true?
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But it's not about me. First of all, I never spoke this way and I never, I can't give the name of our part of our country and where so many, many people are fighting. I don't want to give them any kind of name, but I think that for me, like for the president, for me it's Donetsk region and Luhansk region with the Ukrainian flag. Maybe it's not so funny and maybe it's not Very successful name, but it's very original.
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Got it.
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And I hope that we, we will save it.
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I got it. President Zelenskyy, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
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Thank you very much. Was happy to see you.
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It's all in a name. Coming up later on the show, Iran's surprisingly fierce fight. A former U.S. negotiator says Tehran has so far proved the war plan is wrong. Can it continue like that? Also ahead, the future is peace. A Palestinian and an Israeli who lost loved ones to conflict and then found hope. They tell me why they wrote this book together. Welcome back to the program. Did the United States and Israel underestimate Iran? Tehran's willingness to endure pain and its effective strategy in the Strait of Hormuz has surprised even seasoned analysts. Now the United States has seized the advantage with its blockade of Iranian ports. Still, the war drags on longer than Trump said it would. We get some insight from my next guest, Nate Swanson, who negotiated with the Iranians for the State Department under President Trump and was the Iran director at the National Security Council under President Biden. Welcome to the program. Nate Swanson, thank you for having me. Okay, so with President Trump's post threatening any boat that places mines, what is the main issue, do you think? Certainly there's no trust between the two sides. Iran, let's just ask you about that because you worked for the Trump administration. You're a career civil servant. You worked on this issue right up through the summer. And of course, around the time when Trump and Netanyahu did the 12 Day War and preceding that by a day or two, there had been negotiations with Iran. So tell me how those negotiations were going that you know about and what is the effect of going to war while negotiations are underway?
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Right. So look, I mean, there has never been trust in the U. S. Iran relationship throughout the entirety of, you know, the Islamic Republic's history. But it definitely got worse after last June. Right. I mean, I think at least there was a belief within the Iranian system that by being engaged in a process seriously, that that would, you know, forestall a military attack. Now Iran can't make that conclusion anymore. And it's happened twice now. So, I mean, the trust was always low, but I don't think it's ever been lower than it is right now with President Trump in particular.
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So Iran has put very, very clear at the top of its list of demands countering America's demands, a I do a shorthand security guarantee that is a pledge from Israel and the United States or United States and Israel not to attack it ever again. Is that reasonable? And if it did, you know, demand that, what would it be asked?
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I think it's understandable from Iran's perspective. Right. Without that, they're going to be attacked every six months in perpetuity. It's like this concept of mowing the grass. Right. This is the Israeli strategy. So I think this is obviously, and somewhat understandably, Iran's number one goal. I guess I would argue, though, that they've sort of achieved it in a way by utilizing the Strait of Hormuz in ways that it's never been used before. I don't think any president would walk into a conflict the way, you know, President Trump walked into this one, knowing that there's going to be significant ramifications in the future that happens. So I think in some ways, the irony of this whole war is that although Iran has kind of been beaten badly militarily, you know, they've reestablished deterrence. So in some ways they have their security guarantee. And so, you know, that should help us get out of this war quicker, knowing this is, in fact, the reality.
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Okay, what about a pushback that actually, now that the United States has blockaded their ports, now the US has seized the initiative in those waters and is squeezing an already desperately weak economy and could lead to the kind of crisis that would see the economy totally collapse.
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Right. I mean, it's fair. I mean, that's a good point. And I don't discount the pain that they're going to feel on this over the long term. I mean, it's a big deal. But I think ultimately it's kind of a test of wills between the U.S. and Iran. I mean, the U.S. thinks, and they thought throughout the entirety of the Trump administration, specifically the war, they put enough pressure on Iran, Iran will capitulate. It hasn't happened. Will it happen now because of the blockade? I'm personally skeptical, but we'll see. But I think Iran's calculation on the other side is that they can endure more pain than the US can, and ultimately Trump will blink. And so it's ultimately going to be a test of wills on this and who's going to win out. And both sides are playing a game of chick again right now.
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Even in your own foreign affairs piece, you sort of do a little bit of self criticism. You say that American analysts, yourself included, probably overestimated Iran's fragility before the war. Why do you think you misread it?
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Well, I've worked on Iran for 18 years in the US government and I kind of am routinely amazed at how often both myself and the government gets big things wrong, you know, on Iran, because it's complicated, and it's a very dynamic culture and society and history. And so we continually get things wrong. I mean, you look back, no one would have really seen, you know, rouhani winning in 2013, the presidency. You know, I mean, there's just time and time again, you know, where you would have thought the conventional wisdom was something, and the exact opposite happened. And so, you know, that happens all the time. So in this case, and when January happened and the repression was so brutal, I kind of probably, like many people and maybe yourself, thought, like, this just is unsustainable. This can't go on any longer. The Islamic Republic as an experiment, has kind of failed. And there's a part of me that still feels that's true. But they clearly have been willing to kill their own people, stay in power, and then willing to take extraordinary military risks to survive this attack. So in some ways, they're just much more resilient than I think I anticipated. And it's Iran where the US has had no relations for a long time, and we don't really have a good view of what's happening.
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We're in a much, much different world now. I recently spoke to the former, you know, Army Commander General Stanley McChrystal, who, as you know, commanded troops in Afghanistan, was very senior commander in Iraq. And he said a lot of things to me, including this. I think we're becoming hated in the world, and that's something that will take decades to fix. And once we're not the good guys, who are we? Somebody who's worked in diplomacy for the US for 20 years or more across both parties. How does that. Do you recognize that. That possibility?
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Yeah. Look, I hope he's wrong, and I think America has a lot to offer, you know, but I recognize at the same time that our actions are making it harder for our allies to stay on board, you know, especially threatening NATO and some of these other things. And, you know, our values that, you know, which have always had flaws and problems and some hypocrisy, you know, look worse than ever right now. So we don't have our best foot forward as a country right now. And I think that absolutely makes it harder. And I think, you know, that hurts our standing around the world. I hope it's not permanent. I hope these are temporary measures. But, yes, it's definitely hurting our standing.
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Nate Swanson, thank you so much, indeed, for joining us.
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Thank you very much.
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After a break, a story of survival, sacrifice and life threatening risks as we follow two brothers and their daring escape from North Korea. Welcome back. Can you imagine what it takes to escape one of the most draconian repressive regimes in the world? For two North Korean brothers, it took a decade of preparation. If caught, they could have faced the real risk of execution and all sorts of other punishments which would have been inflicted on them and their entire families for generations to come. In this report by CNN's Mike Valerio, we follow the family, including small children, on a perilous journey to the South. An unfathomable sacrifice to seek freedom. This small fishing boat carried Kim Il Hyuk, his pregnant wife and seven other family members hoping to survive one of the most dangerous escapes from North Korea,
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a journey they say they planned for more than a decade.
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As Kim settles into his new life
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in Seoul, he told us how his escape began with his father and his brother.
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For more than 10 years, Kim and his brother practiced their plan. Sailing near the closely watched sea border between north and South Korea. It's a boundary called the Northern Limit
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line, or Nllaghan and Ganida, the Pombalunata.
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Kim says he finally decided his family needed to leave when the regime became even more repressive and Covid spread across the country. Kim later picked the precise timing for their defection.
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May 6, 2023, 10 p.
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Yompy pagu. Song.
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And just a note. Because of the international scene, it's worth remembering that North Korea now has nuclear weapons, a feat it says will keep it from Iran's fate. Up ahead, the unlikely pair who believe the future is peaceful. We meet an Israeli and a Palestinian united in grief and in hope.
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Now I can say proudly, I can proudly say that yes, I lost my parents on October 7th, but I want Aziz. I want Aziz as a brother.
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I'm Jack McBrayer and I am back on the hunt to find even wilder. Oh no. Is this real? It is more outrageous just you like pink? It's my favorite color. Over the top houses on the market. Oh, look at this bathroom. And meet the fascinating people who call these one of a kind places home. How does one obtain a caboose? Zillow gone wild all new season Friday at 9:30 on HGTV. Welcome back to the program. As we've seen this hour, there is so much despair in the Middle east and beyond. Hope is in short supply. But it still burns bright in my next two guests who have opted for friendship and peace despite suffering unbearable loss. Palestinian Aziz Abu Sara and Israeli Maozinon just released a book called the Future is a Shared Journey across the Holy Land. It's enough to melt the hardest of hearts as I found Aziz Abusara and Maoz Inon. Welcome to the program.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for having us.
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Let me first ask you where you stand, how you're feeling right now. Maoz, your parents were brutally murdered on October 7th when Hamas stormed even their kibbutz, their village, and burnt the house to the ground. What kind of pushback did you get when you basically put out a family statement saying that you were not seeking revenge, rather peace?
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Yes. Only two days after losing our parents and many of our childhood friends and people we knew, my entire life, me, my three sisters and my young brother, we took a decision. We took a decision not to reject revenge, that we don't want to avenge the death of our parents, realizing avenging their death will only escalated the cycle of bloodshed, terror and suffering we Palestinian Israelis have been trapped with for a century. And of course, it's not going to bring them back to life. And we say it's within our family mission, based on our parents, beloved parents legacy, to break this cycle and pave a new path, a path to peace and reconciliation. And two days after making this decision, Aziz reached out to me. Aziz reached out to me, offering his condolences. And it was exactly the end we needed. We needed to save ourselves from drowning into the ocean of sorrow and pain.
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It's a really remarkable story. And Aziz, when you hear what he's saying about what happened to his parents, the decision they made as a family, what did you think and what was making you hesitate from reaching out yourself?
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Well, the only hesitation is would he respond or does he want to hear from me right now? But it felt like it would be a mistake not to reach out. It's in times of these that empathy is very important and at times of these that we should take out those lines of Israeli and a Palestinian and see each other as human beings and that every life matters.
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And Mauz, how did you feel about Aziz reaching out to you?
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I just sent him back a broken heart because my heart was broken at the time. And like Aziz share, we didn't really knew each other. So just a week after we went on our first meeting on Zoom and Aziz shared with me about his brother, about his personal loss and tragedy and also how he overcome and how he choose also forgiveness. We choose to work for peace, to avoid others, to suffer from the same pain he suffered. And then in the last two And a half years we've been working together, co authoring the Future is Peace and speaking in many places. And now I can say proudly, I can proudly say that yes, I lost my parents on October 7th, but I want Aziz. I want Aziz as a brother. So again, every time, I want to again acknowledge that and to thank him for being there for me in the most devastating time of my life.
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So what you just did was really beautiful and surprising. I haven't had people hug on air, particularly in this circumstance, and it's really something to behold. Tell me about Taysir Aziz, the brother you lost.
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Yeah, Taysir is. I'm the youngest of seven. Taysir is the one just older than me. We are nine years difference. We share the same room. We shared actually the same bed. And he functioned more as my parent than as my brother. He's the one who took me to school on my first day. He was arrested from home, an allegation of throwing rocks. He was 18 at the time. I was nine. He was tortured in prison, which resulted in his death as soon as he got out of prison. He was 19 at the time and I was 10. And it was. I felt like an orphan at that point. I felt like I've lost the person who protected me all my life.
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That's exactly where I was after losing my parents. I was crying day and night and I was crying for peace.
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And
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so it's rich when Aziz reached out to me and many other Palestinians and I reach out to others. And now, thanks to Aziz, I have many friends in Gaza, in the west bank, in Lebanon, in Jordan, and even in Iran. And we believe that when our tears come together, this is the cure. This is the cure for the bloodshed, for the devastation, for the polarization that politicians unfortunately thrive upon. And we can counter those warmongers by crying together, by supporting each other and working together. Working together to achieve dignity and quality for all security and safety, both for Palestinian Israelis and across the Middle East. And this is exactly the work we are doing.
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I know that you've chosen for me and for us a couple of passages from your book. So I want to. I would like to ask you to end each reading the passage you've chosen.
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Yeah. So thank you. There is a mirror between Israel and Palestine. Each one of us reflecting our own rage pocket ourselves. We must break this mirror and look one another in the eye to humanize the other side. But even more important, to recognize our own humanity.
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Beautiful.
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Our book is a journey. And so this is a part of the trip where we go through the Christian, the Jesus trail. And as we walked, I kept thinking that Maoz and I weren't only walking the physical path of Jesus, but also of his sermon and the Mount teachings. Two thousand years later, another resident of Galilee, Samehal Qasem, wrote one of my favorite poems titled Travel Tickets, which proclaimed the same truth and echoed this message of peacemaking. The day I'm killed, my killer, rifling through my pockets will find travel tickets, one to peace, one to fields and the rain, and one to the conscience of humankind. So I beg you, my dear killer, do not ignore them. Don't waste such a thing. Please take and use the tickets. Please, I beg you, go traveling. And that's our invitation for everyone. Come and travel with us.
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Well, I have to say, it is a very, very, very dramatic way to end this interview and totally appropriate, and I really do appreciate it. And thank you for the book, the Future Is Peace. Aziz Abusara and Maaz Inam, thank you for being with us.
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Thank you very much.
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Thank you.
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Despite their heroic hope, they are distraught at what's still happening to Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied west bank, where marauding bands of settlers ramp up their violence and what critics call ethnic cleansing. Up ahead, white Chinese are flocking to see ancient Persian artifacts at museums. And we go back into the archives to meet the tourists determined to see ancient Persia for themselves. It's a lot more than I expected. Everything is bigger, more beautiful than I expected. Welcome back. While heritage organizations and UNESCO are warning the United States and Israel not to damage or destroy Iran's ancient history and its important sites, a growing fascination with Iranian culture has soared in China, where punters have been buying Iranian books and flocking to an exhibition highlighting Persian artifacts. Indeed, it's proved so popular, the curator has decided to extend it. But perhaps it's not so surprising. After all, the two countries are both proud of their thousand year plus histories, their fine arts, and yes, both of them have a distrust of the United States. But it's not just China. Ancient Persia has long captivated travelers and tourists. Though it's impossible to visit now under war, Iran has always considered tourism a vital industry. And for centuries, visitors have flocked there, despite political tensions and strict travel restrictions. Back in 1997, I met some adventurous souls determined to see Iran with their own eyes. This is the Iran few outsiders know. These are the treasures of an ancient Persian empire. Isfahan was the royal capital of the Safavid dynasty 400 years ago. The shahs built palaces, mosques and bridges, whose splendors surpass the rest of the region and surprise even the world. Well traveled tourist, I am surprised by what I've seen. It's a lot more than I expected. Everything is bigger, more beautiful than I expected. They come from all over Europe and from Japan to see the sights and to satisfy their curiosity about a country they know as dark and closed, about a government and people reputed to be anti Western terrorists. I came here to see whether it is like, you know, every people, is every Iranian people a terrorist? It is not true. And it is full of history and you know every corner you turn around. It's just fantastic. Multilingual tour guides handle their nervous new charges with special care, determined to show them what they call the real Iran
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because of their bad information that they have had about our country. And when they see the truth here, they change their mind and they don't
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want to leave us.
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Ayatollah Khomeini used to rant and rail against the West. Now his Islamic revolutionary regime is trying to lure Western tourists as much for badly needed cash as to improve the country's image. Mass tourism hasn't caught on yet, but it's picked up over the past few years. Last year, about a half a million visitors came to Iran and the government here is doing everything it can to accommodate them, making tourist visas quick and easy to get and building more hotels and transportation facilities. But there are the rules. Strict Islamic observance means women must be covered, not knowing how far to go. Some go all the way. Only married couples can check into a hotel together. It was different for tourists before the Islamic revolution.
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In the olden times we have a swimming pool and the men and women together.
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But now it is separate.
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No drink, no dance. And when they come to our country, they should respect this idea because the
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government wants to make sure that there's no clash between the values of revolution and relaxation. Christiane Amanpour, cnn, Esfahan. Now, the damage to cultural heritage is already evident. One of the landmarks you just saw in that report is the Chel Sultun Royal Pavilion or the Forty Pillars Palace. It was damaged by airstrikes apparently targeting nuclear sites in Isfahan. When we come back, people all over the world march Earth Day this week. Next six women who won the so called green Nobel Prize and are giving us some major inspiration. And finally, this week, the world marked an Earth Day with perhaps little to celebrate. Arctic ice continues to melt and the world's dependence on fossil fuels is painfully apparent thanks to the war on Iran. But we wanted to end our show with some bright spots this week. The prestigious Goldman Environmental Prize, known as the Green Nobel, was awarded to climate leaders from the world's six continents. And for the first time since its inception, all the winners were women. From Sarah Finch, right here in the UK who has helped change the law by preventing thousands of tons of CO2 from being emitted, to Juvelis Morales Blanco, who stopped commercial fracking in Colombia to Alaska's Alana Aichuk Hurley, who rallied 15 indigenous tribes to save 25 million acres of wilderness. The boundless efforts and optimism for a greener future can actually bring results, and that should inspire us all. And that is all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts, @cnn.com audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Cristiana Manpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week. When Mother's Day means celebrating your mom, your wife, maybe even your daughter as a new mom. Trust 1-800-FLOWERS to help celebrate every important woman in your life with double blooms from 1-800-Flowers. Order one dozen roses and get another dozen for free. It's a simple way to give beautifully, with colorful blooms that make Mother's Day feel meaningful for every mom you're celebrating. Order with confidence and get Double blooms at 1-800-FLowers.com Spotify. That's 1-800-FLowers. Com Spotify. Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a
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hard look at the longevity industry.
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There's so much bad information that the really good information gets drowned.
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CNN Original Series Kara Swisher wants to
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live Forever now, streaming on the CNN app.