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Foreign.
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And welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week. The fate of the global economy hangs in the balance. I ask Iran expert Vali Nasser and former US Negotiator Wendy Sherman for a way out of this Middle east morass. Then Europe at a crossroads. How will the continent defend itself in in a world according to Donald Trump? My conversation with Czech president and former top NATO official Petr Pavel.
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I think Europe has to grow up.
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Also ahead, Israeli settlers rampage across the West Bank. Their latest ploy, setting up razor wire to block Palestinian children from going to school. A report from the scene. And fighting for the soul of Israel seemingly at perpetual war. Former Knesset member and democracy activist Colette Avital joins me. Plus, this weekend marks World Press Freedom Day, but it's been another deadly year for journalists. From my archives, we go back to Russia, when killing reporters was common practice. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Iran, the global economy, shifting alliances in the Middle east, all questions that won't go away after more than 60 days of war. A war of choice by the United States and Israel that is locked in a fragile ceasefire, but nowhere near peace. President Trump negotiates in public, on social media, even posting this AI image of himself with a gun to. To make a point. But it's important we pay attention because whatever happens next will impact all of us, from the rising cost of living, the constraining of the nuclear weapons, to general stability in our world. This week, I asked two serious experts for their take on where we are and where this is all headed, complete with its unintended consequences and blowback. Wendy Sherman was Deputy Secretary of State under President Biden and lead negotiator around the 2015 JCPOA nuclear agreement. And Vali Nasser, the Iranian American academic and former State Department official under President Obama. Welcome, both of you to the program. I'm going to actually try to treat you both as opposite sides of this negotiating table. You, I'm going to take as the Trump administration. And Vali is going to be the Iranian government. I mean nothing by any of this. I just want their position.
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So I don't know which is worse.
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From your perspective, Wendy Sherman, is there, do you see any logic to President Trump's attempt to end this war on terms that are reasonable and to try to get this nuclear situation actually agreed and dealt with?
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Well, I think the Trump administration is in a very difficult place. It began this war without clear objectives, without an overall strategy. Our military is just spectacular as we've heard Secretary of Defense War say today in front of the US Congress, our military has performed fantastically. Gotten rid of the Navy, pushed back their missile program, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think this will change the calculus of Iran. It's existential for them. For Donald Trump, it is political, it is markets, it's munitions, and it is the midterms. Whether he has already taken in the fact that the midterms are not looking good, particularly for the House of Representatives, may mean he thinks he can keep this going for a while and we can sustain the pain. The US Has a lot of oil. Our people have not, even though they're hurting, have not hurt as much as Asia, as much of Europe, as much of the rest of the world. And so I believe Donald Trump believes he can sustain this. And his other choices escalate even further or declare victory and go away. Are not good choices valid.
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What do you think is the accurate picture of the Iranian government?
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I don't think they're fractured. I think they have a very clear sense of what has happened in this war. But I think the Iranians have a very clear goal. They don't want the war to go on indefinitely. They need an outcome, and they want a deal, ultimately that would lift sanctions on them so they can repair their economy and address the water reconstruction. To them, the contours of how this would end is pretty clear. There's no such thing, I think, in Tehran that we don't want to talk to the United States, period. They want certitude, and that's not what they're getting.
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And, Wendy, so tell me what it was like, you know, negotiating at that time compared to what you think it might be like with a whole new crop of much more hardline Iranians.
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There was a process of decision making within our government. A lot of that seems to have disappeared. I was glad when Vice President Vance brought experts to the Islamabad meeting, but I don't know whether they were in any room or had anything to do with what was resolved. So Arachi, who is leading this, is doing a lot of diplomacy, trying to seek out allies and partners both in the Gulf and with Russia and with China. We don't seem to be doing that kind of diplomacy. It is critical to make sure that you have people on side. And of course, ours was a multilateral negotiation. This is a bilateral negotiation, or at least through a mediator, Pakistan. The stakes here are quite different. The economic pain is quite large. And in fact, if both sides decided they would suspend both the blockade and the closure of the Strait of Hormuz for some period of time during a ceasefire negotiations, we might get to the nuclear program, which President Trump had once said was obliterated.
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So on the nuclear issue, Valley then, given all the stuff that I said about how much they have, especially that highly enriched uranium, and that President Trump is said to demand a 20 year suspension of Iran's nuclear enrichment as part of full dismantlement, where do you see a meeting of the mines as There was in 2015 on a nuclear deal?
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I mean, first of all, the president putting these numbers ideas on his own out there is not helpful because it actually makes it very difficult for the Iranians to even argue at home that they're not just surrendering or they didn't just surrender in Islamabad. But it's also important to note that what the Obama administration and Wendy and the team achieved in those negotiations was first, to establish trust. In other words, that deal in JCPOE was possible because the Iranians actually trusted that the Obama administration was honest at the table, wanted the deal and was going to implement a deal. I think President Trump has lost that altogether. He can't bring Iranians to the table because regardless of what's on the table, 20 years, 10 years, all of the nuclear material or not, because they have no trust that he actually will implement the deal that he signs and he's not going to walk away from it the next day.
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Now, I also asked Wendy Sherman about some comments she made to Bloomberg's Michael Hussein when they spoke about Israel's war on Hamas and the destruction of Gaza. You basically told her on her podcast that, in essence, Netanyahu had created a genocide in Gaza and that the United States, quote, has been part of it. You also said it remains critical that Israel stay an ally of the United States. And I know you didn't make a legal judgment, but what are you trying to say as a, as an American Jew?
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What I'm trying to say is things have changed. I spend a lot of time with younger people. I try to listen and learn as I think my parents did with, with me during the Vietnam War. And although many legal analysts have said this is a genocide, what really matters here is, yes, I understand how horrific October 7th was. It was horrific and it is existential for Israel. I support Israel and we must continue to support Israel. But there was a slaughter of the Palestinian people in Gaza. And indeed, we're seeing the Prime Minister of Israel talk about taking over the west bank and really closing any space there might be for the Palestinian people and the United States of America. The values that we believe in. Israel must be safe and secure and have peace forever. And the Palestinians have to be able to have dignity and a place they can call their own as well. That's what I was trying to say.
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And coming up later on the show, former Knesset member and Israeli peace activist Colette Avital on hitting the deck while protesting at age 86. And straight ahead, Czech President PETA Pavel tells me why Europe needs to get its act together and what President Trump needs to hear right now. Welcome back to the program. Is the new world order, no world order. The war on Iran has upended a whole raft of certainties. Risks to oil supplies play into Putin's hands and fill his war chest. While Ukraine gets sidelined by an America now focused on Iran. And President Trump continues berating long standing allies instead of adversaries. For a brief moment, the British king came and spread some balm and goodwill. But the stakes can hardly feel higher. Earlier this week, I went to Prague where I sought clarity from the Czech president, PETA Pavel. He was a top NATO official and before that, head of his own nation's armed forces. So he knows everything about war and peace. We met at CNN's affiliate Prima TV there and Pavel told me what he would tell Trump right now about war, peace and the value of alliances. Thank you, Mr. President. Welcome to this interview. And can I just ask you, because I'm here a couple of weeks after the political landscape around part of Eastern Europe is changing somewhat with the defeat of Prime Minister Orban. I just wondered how you're feeling about the relative balance of power now.
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Well, we may feel a little bit relaxed because Viktor Orban was representing blocking power, especially in the EU with regard to support to Ukraine. But I would rather wait for concrete deeds rather than words But I just
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want to ask you, because the Trump administration has vocally said whether it was J.D. vance, the Vice president in Munich, whether it's the State Department official, Mr. Sampson, who's been going around Europe allies and essentially instructing them that they need to be more right wing in terms of more maga. That's my shorthand. But have you come across that here?
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I would rather say that it was a misjudgment because JD Wentz clearly helped Peter Madhyar to win by his intervention.
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President Zelenskyy said that actually the United States puts more pressure on him and he is the defender, as he says, than on the aggressor Russia. What do you think can be done to Change that.
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Clearly, Middle east has become a priority. Ukraine for American administration at this point, and it gave Russia time to. To breathe. And they also see that diverting all material support, especially interceptors for air defense to Middle east and they are now missing in Ukraine gives Russia time to reconstitute their capabilities. Also increasing cost of oil gives Russia additional financial resources to support the war machine. And that also gives Vladimir Putin more hope that he can achieve more than he probably believed A couple of months ago.
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You just touched on the war on Iran. Do you see any route to a negotiation from your side, from the west side, from President Trump's side?
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I believe that Europe could do much more, but we are not part of it. European countries were blamed not to come to assistance, but how could we when we were not invited at the beginning?
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Yes. And President Trump has threatened all sorts of punishments on European countries, particularly NATO countries. Are you concerned? I mean, he's lashed out at Spain. He's just angry. Calls you all cowards for not coming to help, you know, force the Strait of Hormuz open, for instance.
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Well, I know how difficult it is to tell to President Trump anything that he doesn't want to hear.
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Have you tried it?
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Well, I didn't have a chance, but I believe that what he needs to hear, that by having different opinion, we are not an enemy. We are. We are on the same side. What we want is fair treatment. And I believe that should European countries were involved at the beginning, that there will be much more willingness to take part potentially in also supporting operations, for example, in control access through Hormu Strait. But now, when European countries were not treated as allies at the beginning, and they are now blamed from being cowards, I fully understand that they take it, let's say, unfair. And we want to be fair. We want to be fair allies. We have to talk to each other as equals, not as a dependent child.
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Back to Europe, I mean, people have been sitting around saying, I mean, serious people that get ready, there's going to be war in Europe. That is Russia attacking Europe, let's say the Baltic states. And then, and then. Do you subscribe to that fear?
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Russia has turned all its economy into a war machine. It's extremely difficult to turn it back. There is no switch to peace mode. And maintaining such an economy running, in fact, needs an output where you would put all this production. You have now more than million and a half trained soldiers. Many of them, if the war is over, will retire with all the difficulties and problems of war. And then if you are in a position of Russian leader. And you would see weakened Europe, weakened grip of United States over European security, and you would say, well, that's a good chance, let's use it. So I should, I would say let's look at it also from the point of view of opportunity for Russia not necessarily to launch a massive operation in Europe, but to humiliate NATO by starting, let's say, limited military action, for example, in the Baltics, and by doing that, to clearly demonstrate that NATO is actually useless because it doesn't act unless it acts.
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Unless it acts, do you fear that NATO will be busted, that even Trump talking about, you know, talking it down could just cause the end of the transatlantic alliance in that regard and therefore put all of you to have to defend yourselves and to have to have a whole other arrangement?
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Well, frankly, I believe that we need each other. I mean, the United States needs Europe and Europe needs United States, but we were actually never equal partners. I think Europe has to grow up to come up with own capabilities. To be a partner means not to be dependent, to be able to act independently from United States, but with clear preference of always acting together. But if United States for any reason decide not to take part in European defence, we should be able to do it on our own. And that's, in my way, good partnership. That means we will be both equally strong, equally independent, but always preferring to work together. But it will be finally NATO that we wanted from the very beginning.
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President Petapavo, thank you so much. Indeed.
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Thank you.
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After a break. The crisis unfolding in the west bank, where violence and oppression continue to spill into everyday life, even at the school gates. That's after a break. Welcome back. Since October 7th and the start of the wars in Gaza and Iran, settler violence against Palestinians over on the occupied west bank has escalated dramatically. Reports of murder, sexual assault, destroyed homes and forced displacement are becoming all too common. This week there was an extraordinary comment from former Israeli Mossad chief Tamir Pardo comparing what he was seeing in the west bank to the Nazi era, telling Israel's Channel 13 quote, My mother is a Holocaust survivor. What I saw here today reminded me of events that happened in the last century. The same phenomena directed there against Jews, unofficial de facto annexation in the occupied west bank is changing the face of what was designated part of an independent Palestinian state. As Israel approves new settlements at a record pace in one village, see how it's even now affecting Palestinians as young as five years old school children. As CNN's Abir Salman now reports,
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These Palestinian children have been demonstrating every day for two weeks. All they want to do is go to school. But razor wire is blocking their way. Rolled out by Israeli settlers from a nearby settlement in a deliberate move to stop them. 11 year old Huda struggles to hold back tears. Some of the kids here in Umm Al Khair in the occupied west bank are as young as five years old. Along with their books and their backpacks, they carry signs and hold them up so settlers can see them as soldiers look on at the top of the hill. When settlers initially blocked the road, video shared with CNN showed soldiers with what appeared to be tear gas blowing around them. The children scream and run away. This striking image was widely shared online, even capturing the attention of NBA star Kyrie Irving, who made it his profile picture on Instagram. And the kids took notice. Ommal Khair is not unique. In fact, the UN says there are 12 more Palestinian communities in this small corner of the west bank facing imminent threat of forcible transfer. That's 500 children and their families. Israel may reject the description, but a local leader is clear in how he
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sees things and the occupation mostly based on the apartheid system which give all the privileges to the settlers that prevent Palestinians from having any kind of right, even right to education and access their school safely. All the kids in Palestine suffer. They want to just live their life normally, but they pay the price.
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Abiyeh Salman reporting there from Umm Al Khayr in the occupied West Bank. Many children there have been out of school for over 40 days when Israel and the US launched their war on Iran. Meanwhile in Gaza, some are finally returning to classrooms in makeshift tents and shelters after almost all of the 660,000 school age children were out of education for nearly two years after the Hamas attacks and 97% of schools were damaged or destroyed in the war on Gaza. That's according to the UN which says the children risk becoming a lost generation. Up ahead, she's the former Israeli politician taking to the streets to speak out against war. Even at 86. My conversation with Colette Avital after the break.
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It's my favorite color.
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Zillow gone wild all new season Friday
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at 9:30 on HGTV.
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Welcome back. It's fire on all sides for Israel since 10-07-2023, after the criminal mass murders by Hamas, the country has been embroiled in fighting everywhere from Gaza to Lebanon, Yemen to Iran. And for the people of Israel, a warning from the nation's military chief that they should brace for another year of fighting on all fronts. Yet even through constant upheaval and air raid alerts, many Israelis continue to support all this war, believing, hoping it'll keep them safe after October 7th. But there are still voices of dissent, like 86 year old Colette Avital's, a former Israeli diplomat, Knesset member and Holocaust survivor, who spoke to me about what would actually really bring lasting peace. Welcome to our program. Colette Avital.
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Hello. Hello, Christiane. Thank you for having me.
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What in your view is happening right now and how do Israelis look at it?
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Israel is a divided society. There are those who support this government, but there's also a large size of the Israeli population growing, actually, who opposes? Because what we've been living through in the past few years is constant erosion of our democratic system. It's a number of laws that try to limit the freedom of speech, the freedom, the equality of the citizens. And altogether, since October 7, even though this war was imposed on us and it was quite a massacre, we live in constant wars, endless wars which we think lead nowhere with no exist strategy.
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Obviously, you yourself have been taking part in some protests against the Iran war. And at one of these protests that you were at, it appears you were, you found yourself on the ground holding your head. We have some video, a person also in the protest around you was filming this. Can you tell us what happened to you? Because it's not quite clear who pushed you down and did you, how did you injure yourself? Were you injured?
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I really am not the story and I think there have been worse cases, but particularly I was at the demonstration which looked at one point peaceful, and all of a sudden we saw the police arriving like mad men. And I was with the back filming one of the scenes. And this is when I was pushed. I assumed that I was pushed by one of the policemen. I really have no proof of it, but I found myself on the floor and actually my head did hit the floor, but I'm okay. There have been worse cases and actually I think one of the real stories is the growing violence of the police. The police should be there to protect us, not to attack us. They're coming with horses, they're quite violent. There have been cases where they've arrested women who were standing peacefully around and undress them and they had to be interrogated Naked. So those are practices which never existed in our country. And I'm sorry to say the police receives orders. So this is not by chance, but
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what do you think it's all for? I mean, this is really pretty shocking given that Israel is always called, you know, the only democracy in the Middle East. And you're talking about women being arrested, Israeli women, and stripped and interrogated while naked. I've never heard that before.
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Here you are. Unfortunately, that was the case and unfortunately we are trying to see how to protect ourselves. I've been in one or two demonstrations since and we have civil society organizations that are there to forming a line to protect us.
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I want to ask you how much the defense of the values and the achievements of your, of your country do you think also rests on how you deal with your neighbors, the Palestinians?
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Well, first and foremost, I think the big crime is occupation. I think the Palestinians have a right to self determination. And I belong to all the groups of people in Israel who still believe in duties two state solution. And as long as we occupy the territories, more and more violence occurs. Now the Palestinians themselves have made their own mistakes, which doesn't condone ours, doesn't justify ours. But what has been happening since this ultra nationalistic, messianic government is in power are two priorities. Priority number one to stay in power, and priority number two is to annex territories.
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You know, you have said some Israelis have become cold to other people's sufferings. What do you say to the younger generation when you're, when you, when you come up against them or with them in these protests?
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I don't mean to justify anything, but you have to understand that the situation is more complex. I think that this country has been very deeply traumatized by the 7th of October, October attack, onslaught, murders and everything that was done. And so when people suffer, they're thinking of their suffering before thinking of others. And it takes a little bit more, I don't know, consideration and thinking of what is happening around us. And I think that the Israeli society for a long time has not looked into that. But remember we were attacked. And so if the war was something which was justified at the beginning because we did have to go out and defend our citizens, I think more and more people understand today that there is no strategy, that we haven't really achieved anything other than perhaps military victory which lead nowhere, that the Gaza Strip is still controlled by the Hamas, that nothing was really achieved in terms of ending whatever threatened us in Iran. So I think that there's a waking up. This is what I see around me. And more and more young people understand that unless you lead to a political solution, there's no evidence end to any war, any conflict, and no conflict was ever resolved by simply military means. This is something which people understand today.
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Meantime, the backlash. The fallout continues with anti Semitic attacks here in London. Two Jewish men were attacked and stabbed this week, the latest in a series targeting London's Jewish community. Now the government is investing another $33 million into securing the community. And coming up, as we mark World Press Freedom Day, a look at one of the most perilous places to be a journalist today and in the past. Russia from my archive, what I saw when I visited Moscow in 2007. Welcome back. This week, the world marks World Press Freedom Day. And as global conflict survives spiral, so too does the danger facing journalists and media workers. Reporters Without Borders say global press freedom is at its lowest level in 25 years. In Russia, journalists have experienced an unprecedented crackdown since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022. That's the full scale invasion. Hundreds of journalists have been shut down or forced into exile. And just a few weeks ago, the offices of newspaper Novaya Gazeta was raided and a journalist detained. But all this pressure didn't start with this invasion. Back in 2007, for a special report on Putin's rising authoritarianism, I went to Moscow and found many journalists to be living in fear.
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Two of them are chief editors of the one and the same newspaper. Ivanov was shot, Sidorov was stabbed.
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Alexei Simonov keeps track of the grim body count and he tries to get each killing investigated.
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How many journalists have been killed since 1991, since the Yeltsin period?
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220. 220. 220 journalists.
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And of those, how many have been properly investigated?
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5.
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5 or 6 out of 220.
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Simonov says Russian police solve 80% of the murders here, but only 6% when they involve a journalist.
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They don't think that journalists are really useful in this country. Sometimes they even think that they are worse than useless.
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Why?
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Well, because they try to find out real things.
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Is the Kremlin responsible for the deaths of people like Anna Politkovskaya?
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I don't think that anybody in Kremlin could be accused of being responsible. But the climate in the country is their responsibility.
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The climate which says that don't go
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against us, don't go into details, etc. Etc. All these things is a part of the climate and the climate is a part of what killed her.
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The Kremlin denied any involvement in her murder.
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This journalist was a harsh critic of the Russian government. But her influence on political life here was insignificant. This is a cruel assassination of a woman, a mother, directed against the current Russian leadership.
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Last August, Putin's prosecutor general said he had cracked the case, even arresting state security officers. But they insist the plot was hatched by Putin's opponents overseas.
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It seems that Mr. Putin was really interested who killed Politkovskaya, whether it was his left foot or his right hand.
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Today, journalist Yulia Latinina is one of the few uncensored voices remaining on Russia's airwaves. Her show airs on a radio station called Moscow's Echo.
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Do you think the investigation is going to reveal who killed her and why?
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The investigation uncovered as a fact that two teams of people were following Politkovskaya. They were FSB colonels. There were people from police who were watching her movements. Okay, that's not the way private killer goes about the business.
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If they're trying to shut up and close down critical journalists, how does Moscow Echo, which is so outspoken, stay on the air?
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Putin can afford anybody who cries in the corner. He cannot afford this to be on tv. But in the corner, why not?
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So you're safe in your corner.
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I don't think we are very safe really.
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Now, that was a documentary that we called Tsar Putin with great prescience back in 2007. And since then, the Moscow Echo was taken off the air just after the invasion of Ukraine, accused of spreading false information about a war the Kremlin insisted was just a special military operation. The journalist I spoke to at the end of that report, Yulia Latminia, had been forced to flee several years earlier. And Glasnost Defense foundation, the organization of Alexei Simonov, who you saw showing me rows of pictures of dead journalists, was designated a foreign agent back in 2015. Yet so many continue to bravely put their heads above the parapet, like Nobel peace laureate Dmitry Muratov, awarded the prize for defending freedom of speech in 2021, he was the victim of an attack in 2022, and he was designated a foreign agent a year later. And yet he remains in Russia doing what he can to speak truth to power. When we come back. After King Charles III charmed Washington's elite in his first US state visit, we dig into the enduring fascination with Britain's royals. That's. And finally, for us here in the uk, we couldn't end without mentioning the expectations busting royal visit to the United States. This week, on his first state visit as King Charles III was ostensibly celebrating 250 years since American independence from King George III. But who could ignore the atmospherics around it? Polls show that about half of Brits didn't want him to go. Angry President Trump trash talking their nation, their troops and their prime minister. And for goodness sake, don't mention the war. But with dignity and deafness, diplomacy and a subtle turn of phrase, the king managed to keep calm and carry on. At one point, during a rare speech to a joint meeting of Congress, he explained the Magna Carta and the limits of executive power.
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The Magna Carta is cited in at least 160 Supreme Court cases since 1789, not least as the foundation of the principle that executive power is subject to checks and balances,
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Applause and standing oaths from both sides of the aisle. President Trump was on his best behavior, too.
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American patriots today can sing My country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, only because our colonial ancestors first sang God Save the King.
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Now, for more than a century, the United States romance with British aristocracy has changed the shape of history. Take the dollar princesses of the Gilded Age, where America's wealthy families married off their daughters to British aristocrats. One heiress, Brooklyn's Jenny Jerome, married a British lord and became mother to a certain Winston Churchill, who, by the way, went on to coin the term special relationship. And it is most definitely that most of the time. And that's all the time we have right now. Don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts@cnn.com audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Cristiana Manpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you all again next week.
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I'm Daniel Dae Kim. I'm going to South Korea to figure out how this small nation conquered the world with its culture. Join me and meet the artists and creators behind the phenomenon K everything streaming
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May 9th on the CNN App.
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Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry.
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There's so much bad information that the
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really good information gets drowned.
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The new CNN Original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever now streaming on the CNN app.