Is Trump Selling Out Ukraine?

Summary

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Amanpour – "Is Trump Selling Out Ukraine?"

CNN Podcasts | November 28, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Guests: John Kerry (former US Secretary of State), Annie Leibovitz (photographer), Wes Anderson (film director)

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Overview

This episode of Amanpour explores urgent questions in global affairs, from President Trump’s controversial Ukraine peace proposals and their implications for international diplomacy, to the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and the latest milestones (and setbacks) in the global fight against climate change. The show features in-depth interviews with former US Secretary of State John Kerry, legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz discussing her new book, and acclaimed director Wes Anderson reflecting on his films and creative process.

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Main Segment: Is Trump Selling Out Ukraine?

Interview with John Kerry
Timestamps: [01:17]–[21:07]

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Trump’s "Peace Plan" and Accusations of Appeasement

• Amanpour sets the stage by outlining how leaked details of Trump’s latest Ukrainian "peace plan" have alarmed diplomats, especially as it appears to favor Russian demands ([02:24]).
• Revelations include US envoys allegedly coaching Russian counterparts to secure better terms from President Trump ([02:24]).

John Kerry on Diplomatic Norms and US Policy toward Russia

• Amanpour: "Is it normal for the US to approach negotiations like this?" ([03:47])
• Kerry draws a contrast between typical statecraft and Trump’s methods:

  "I think just plunking something down and giving somebody sort of an ultimatum—‘you have to decide this by Thursday’—not a great way to begin." ([04:09])

• He argues robust peace requires both pressure and negotiation, noting:

  "President Putin has a set of very clear objectives...In any kind of treaty, both sides will not get everything." ([04:52])

• Kerry voices concern over the lack of sanctions and pressure on Russia:

  "The absence of some of the sanctions which could have been put in place...has changed what you can put on the table and then negotiate about." ([07:07])

• He commends Europe's role:

  "Europe has also stepped up here in a very significant way and I think deserves enormous credit." ([07:54])

Looking Back: Crimea, Sanctions, and Missed Opportunities

• Amanpour references Jens Stoltenberg's regrets, asking Kerry if the West should have imposed harsher sanctions after Crimea ([08:11]).
• Kerry responds reflectively:

  "It's so easy to sit here and see a situation where a number of years later, something happens and you say, 'Oh, gosh, why didn't we do this or that then?'...Sanctions were immediately put in place, they were tough sanctions, [but] there was not a sense that the invasion [of Ukraine] was imminent." ([08:51])

• He emphasizes the tightrope between pressure and escalation:

  "...How do you put pressure but not start World War III?" ([09:22])

The Dilemma of Peace

• Kerry on the risks of "peace at any cost":

  "No. And you have to be certain that the long-term interests for real peace that could be held onto may take a little longer and may take a little more pain." ([10:31])

• Expresses bipartisan concern in US Congress over Trump’s direction:

  "That’s why I think members of the United States Senate, Republican and Democrat, are increasingly concerned about the direction this may be taking." ([10:38])

On Receiving UK Honor for Climate Work

• Amanpour congratulates Kerry on his honor from King Charles for climate diplomacy ([11:18]).
• Kerry reflects:

  "It was very, very, very meaningful, very special moment at Buckingham Palace with my family…What’s more important than ever now is folks who are willing to still stand up and say...this is not a matter of politics...it’s a law of physics." ([11:45])

• He praises King Charles’ environmental vision.

COP30, Climate Transition, and US Absence

• Amanpour questions US effectiveness at COP30 and the absence of stronger anti-fossil fuel commitments ([12:54]).
• Kerry admits disappointment at the summit’s limited outcome but notes:

  "...The transition now is moving to a point where the majority of the electricity that is new coming in the world, 85% is renewable." ([15:47])

• On Trump’s climate denial:

  “Only one person in the world has pulled out of Paris, and that’s President Trump...the hoax is in saying to people that it is a hoax.” ([13:32])

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Segment: Portraits of Women & the Gaze

Interview with Annie Leibovitz
Timestamps: [22:36]–[41:17]

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Women, Visibility, and Storytelling

• Amanpour and Leibovitz discuss the second volume of her book "Women," celebrating female trailblazers ([22:36]).
• Leibovitz reflects on representation:

  "We don’t have enough stories as women. We need to see ourselves." ([23:39])

• They highlight Susan Sontag's assertion:

  "Portraits of women featured their beauty, portraits of men, their character." ([23:58])

• Leibovitz’s empathy for her subjects is illustrated in Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s description of her postpartum shoot:

  "[Annie's] sanguine reaction was a relief. There was no dismissiveness, no judgment." ([24:25])

Gloria Steinem’s Perspective (Read by Leibovitz)

• Steinem’s remarks emphasize progress through visibility, even if accompanied by condescension:

  "How we are seen, no doubt, changes how we see ourselves...But being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored." (Leibovitz quoting Steinem, [26:05])

Reflections on Power, Doubt, and Role Models

• Amanpour praises Leibovitz’s cultural impact; Leibovitz demurs, admitting insecurity:

  "You are the tallest and most authoritative, unsure person that I’ve ever seen." (as described by Steinem; [27:01])

• Leibovitz reflects on self-doubt and how it’s now reframed as a source of creative questioning ([27:38]).

On Iconic Portraits: Rihanna, Michelle Obama, John & Yoko

• Amanpour references Leibovitz’s famous portrait of Rihanna, linking it to her earlier Demi Moore cover:

  "She took that Demi Moore picture and blew it out of the water." ([28:35])

• Leibovitz describes working with Michelle Obama and the evolution of their shoot ([29:44]).
• The emotional resonance of her most famous image—the John Lennon/Yoko Ono Polaroid:

  "It turns from a story of love to a goodbye...That’s interesting about photography how over time, the stories sort of change." ([33:45]) "I promised John that they would both be on the cover. So he did. He changed it..." ([37:38])

Artistic Process and Legacy

• Leibovitz explains her approach comes from reportage, not traditional portraiture; she advocates empathy, but maintains professional distance ([30:41]).
• On photographing all types of subjects:

  "I do have a hard time when I have to photograph someone I don’t necessarily like. But as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody." ([38:01])

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Segment: The Art of Filmmaking

Interview with Wes Anderson
Timestamps: [41:51]–[54:43]

Key Discussion Points and Insights

"Andersonian" Style and Creative Identity

• Amanpour discusses how Anderson’s visual aesthetic has become instantly recognizable:

  "Every time I release a trailer for the next one, the first thing I hear is, you could tell it was me in the first 10 seconds. And I’ve had to accept that that is simply true." ([42:40])

Recurrent Characters and the Joy of Collaboration

• Anderson likens his recurring cast to a theatre troupe:

  "I liked the idea of having a sort of stock company, like a theater troupe...I love the start of a movie being a kind of reunion." ([44:08])

Exploring Family, Death, and Inheritance in "The Phoenician Scheme"

• The new film centers on a complicated father-daughter relationship ([45:43]):

  "I thought this movie, I have to dedicate it to Fouad because he’s the inspiration." (Anderson, on dedicating the film to his late father-in-law; [52:01])

• On mortality and loss:

  "I think...yes. I’m 56 and the number of friends who’ve died in the last 15 years, it’s just they’re one after another and including both parents. So it’s on my mind." ([51:29])

Animation’s Influence on Anderson’s Craft

• Discusses how making "Fantastic Mr. Fox" influenced his approach to live action:

  "It changed my way of working in live action too, because I kind of saw how I could make, I think, fewer mistakes, how I could be a little more meticulously prepared for a movie shoot." ([53:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John Kerry on pressure and peace:

  "You have to make it crystal clear he thinks he’s going to win. He thinks he is winning. And that equation has to be changed if you’re going to get the full measure of what you want." ([10:15])

• Leibovitz quoting Steinem:

  "Being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored." ([26:05])

• Wes Anderson on his films’ recognizability:

  "I can’t change my handwriting. It’s just the way it comes out...I accept that I have a certain kind of voice that happens to be quickly identifiable." ([43:13])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:17] – Amanpour’s program opening
• [03:47] – John Kerry on US-Ukraine diplomacy
• [08:11] – Crimea, sanctions, Stoltenberg’s regrets
• [11:18] – Kerry receives climate honor from King Charles
• [12:54] – COP30 fallout and US leadership
• [22:36] – Annie Leibovitz discusses "Women: Volume 2"
• [26:05] – Gloria Steinem’s essay (read by Leibovitz)
• [33:43] – The John Lennon/Yoko Ono cover story
• [41:51] – Wes Anderson: visual style, process, "The Phoenician Scheme"
• [43:13] – Anderson on creative identity
• [51:29] – Anderson on mortality and inspiration

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Tone and Language

• The episode maintains a thoughtful and persistent journalistic tone, with Amanpour’s incisive questions pushing guests for depth and honesty.
• Kerry is measured, occasionally passionate, and candid about both past mistakes and current geopolitics.
• Leibovitz is humble, reflective, and candid about self-doubt and the power of the photographic gaze.
• Anderson is self-effacing, whimsical, and philosophical about art and storytelling.

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Summary

This episode provides crucial insight into the world’s biggest crises—from the dangers of hasty diplomacy and the lessons of past failures (Ukraine, Crimea, Gaza), to the social power of visibility (Leibovitz’s portraiture), to art’s ability to process grief and identity (Anderson’s films). It’s an episode about how leaders—political, creative, and cultural—shape the narratives and futures we all inherit.

Transcript

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[John Kerry]

You know the old say they'll peace at any cost.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No peace or appeasement. The leaked peace plan and a question is Trump selling out Ukraine? The frantic efforts to prevent that we hear from former US Secretary of State and veteran negotiator John Kerry.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Then I think as photographers though, and as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Women Volume 2 Capturing the Trailblazers I asked the legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz about where she points her camera and why. Plus a look back at my conversation with the award winning director Wes Anderson about his distinctive filmmaking.

[Wes Anderson]

Every time I release a trailer for the next one, the first thing I hear is you could tell it was me in the first 10 seconds.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. What a rollercoaster week it's been for diplomacy. True to form, President Trump's latest quote peace plan for Ukraine has set off alarms over a proposal that sounded like Russia's maximalist demands, the same ones it's been making since invading Ukraine in 2022 for the second time. And the leaks revealing just how much America is tipping the balance in the Kremlin's favor, with special envoy Steve Whitco appearing to coach his Russian counterpart on how to get the Best deal out of President Trump. Meanwhile, the earlier Trump peace plan for the Middle east seems to be going up in further rounds of Israeli strikes. Lebanon is reeling from attacks on the heart of its capital, Beirut. And strikes have continued in Gaza despite the ceasefire. Palestinians, including children, living in pools of water after heavy downpours with nothing more than flimsy coverings and torn up tents. Life in the rubble or in makeshift camps and shelters exposed them to the brutal winter. Former US Secretary of State John Kerry has negotiated with all the characters in these crises, including Putin and Netanyahu, and he's joining me now here in the studio to talk about the prospect for peace. So, Secretary of State, welcome back to the program.

[John Kerry]

Great to be here. Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This week has been really dominated by what on earth is the US Doing Regards trying to bring a peace to Ukraine that looks heavily tilted, according to all the leaks, towards Russia. So, you know, Trump, the president says, oh, but this is nothing but, you know, normal statescraft. I want to ask a statesman who's engaged in high stakes negotiations, is it, is it normal?

[John Kerry]

Well, it depends on who's doing it and how they approach in general. I would say this is proven to be fairly normal for how the Trump administration chooses to do its diplomacy. I think just plunking something down and giving somebody sort of an ultimatum, you have to decide this by Thursday. Not a great way to begin. And I think given the number of items in there, that would obviously be extremely difficult for both Europe and for President Zelenskyy to accept also makes it a little more complicated. So my hope would be, I mean, I hope they're successful, genuinely. We hugely hope they are successful. This war must end. But President Putin has a set of very clear objectives. And needless to say, in any kind of treaty or end of war, both sides will not get everything. And you have to find the sweet spot of where you can land so that they're satisfied significantly enough that their people, their countries will not rebel or feel that they somehow gave away the store.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So in terms of what the United States stands for, clearly Putin launched an illegal aggression for no good reason. Ukraine posed zero military threat or any other threat to Russia. Right. And he's been trying it since 2014 with the annexation. You was, I think, Secretary of State back then. Yeah. Why do you think this administration. And were you guys tempted to tilt the scales towards Putin? To butter him up, to give him to listen to him always being the last person before he talks, you know, Trump talks to Zelensky. What, what do you think Putin is getting out of this current administration.

[John Kerry]

Well, I don't think anybody can explain precisely why there appears to be this excessive sensitivity to President Putin. It's very hard to pin down, though, whether there's some other thing that's out there that's hanging around that somehow affects President Trump. The bottom line is that you say for no good reason in terms of the invasion, but obviously you have to understand all of the participants. And from Putin's perspective, he thinks he has a good reason, which is, well, Ukraine, the attitude of he and. And Russia and the long relationship with Ukraine, he's never accepted that Khrushchev gave it away.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And.

[John Kerry]

And there's a feeling there now that doesn't excuse anything. You have to deal with that. And in order to get President Putin in a place where he has a greater appetite for solving this, you almost certainly have to be prepared to be tougher. And I think a lot of people feel that the absence of some of the sanctions which could have been put in place, the absence of some of the, you know, greater pressure on President Putin, has changed what you can put on the table and then negotiate about. Obviously, there are huge implications here for Europe. Also, you know, Russia continues to. To promulgate these episodes of invading airspace with drones and testing and, you know, back and forth playing a dangerous game. And Europe is concerned, as it should be. Europe has also stepped up here in a very significant way and I think deserves enormous credit. So right now, this strangely, a very big and important peace proposal is being cobbled together almost in public, and that seems to diminish the ability to be able to put a united front, clearly defined on the table and in front of President Putin.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You talked about the kind of pressure, sanctions, et cetera, that should be brought to bear on Putin to make him feel the need to come to a negotiation. I have recently been speaking to the former NATO Secretary General, who was secretary general in 2014 when you were in office. Jens Stoltenberg has written a memoir, and he's very clear that he regrets that the United States, Europe, et cetera, didn't put enough pressure, whether it was sanctions or military aid to Ukraine, on Putin after the annexation of Crimea and the first invasion of the little green men into eastern Ukraine. Do you accept that, in retrospect, that you should have done much more then?

[John Kerry]

I think it is so easy to sit here and see a situation where a number of years later, something happens and you say, oh, gosh, why didn't we do this or that then? But I remember very clearly, as does President Obama and everybody in that administration that we were trying. There was an initial stage where already what had been happening in Donbass and Luhansk had been exacerbated. And these, quote, little green men were running around in, you know, otherwise known as Russian.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Russian troops.

[John Kerry]

Known as Russian troops, but because of a very different history with Crimea. And at that point, only a beginning of this process of understanding Putin's full ambitions, sanctions were immediately put in place. They were tough sanctions, and there was a condemnation on a very broad basis of what Putin had done, but not a sense that the invasion was imminent or about to happen. And in fact, that didn't build up into several years later. I think there was a, you know, as, as the initial evaluation of this new tactic was being done, there was some consideration to how do you put pressure but not start World War iii?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Right. That's what, that's what everybody's saying, including Biden and then Trump and everybody, to.

[John Kerry]

Be fair, I know, to be fair, it's very real. Now, that said, everybody now understands exactly what the game plan is. Everybody understands the danger of that game plan. Europe, particularly has stakes in this. And so I think it's much more clear that the risks are more meaningful, are more assumable in this situation. I think one has to be tougher. I think you have to make it crystal clear he thinks he's going to win. He thinks he is winning. And that equation has to be changed if you're going to get the full measure of what you want. That's why I think members of the United States Senate, Republican and Democrat, are increasingly concerned about the direction this may be taking. You know the old saying, peace at any cost. No. And you have to be certain that the long term interests for real peace that could be held onto may take a little longer and may take a little more pain.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Trump will always claim that. I know it's under pressure, but he did send the javelins that you all refused to send to Ukraine. Lethal weaponry. Um, let me ask you about something, Happy. You're here to receive a amazing honor from King Charles for the amazing work that you have done on the climate and on negotiating certainly the Paris climate Accord and all the work you've done as climate czar for President Biden, et cetera. Just tell me about it. What was it like? What does it mean to you?

[John Kerry]

Well, it was very, very, very meaningful, very special moment at Buckingham palace with my family. And the king could not have been more gracious and thoughtful. He was very funny in terms of my kids. Who had a little conversation with him and it was really just a very special moment. I'm very grateful to His Majesty for the honor, but equally I am grateful for His Majesty's leadership and vision that he has never stopped expressing. And I think more important than ever now is folks who are willing to still stand up and say, wait a minute, folks, this is not a matter of politics, not a matter of ideology, it's a law of physics. And the physics are telling us you better respond to the challenge. And His Majesty is determined to keep working and working and doing it. So I'm grateful for that and grateful obviously for the award.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, the highest honor that a non citizen, a non UK citizen can achieve. So congratulations on that.

[John Kerry]

Thanks.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But it does come in the aftermath of the cop 30 in Belem, which was pretty much just wrapping up when you got this award or just wrapped up. And there's a sense of disappointment that a final statement or communique did not, you know, again, set a proper vision for the transition away from fossil fuels. Didn't even mention it. And also that the United States, by being absent, was unable to corral its vision. You know, and so the BRICs and the other nations kind of stampeded Europe, if you like, moving and aligning with the fossil fuel producers, many of which are BRIC fossil fuel producers.

[John Kerry]

So, yeah, it, I mean, it's fair to say that it was disappointing in terms of the breadth and obviously didn't do as much as many people hoped. That said, we're at a very different moment now in the climate challenge. It's important to note that even with the difficulties that took place in Belem, that the vast majority of the world, in fact every leader in the rest of the world, is still supportive of the Paris agreement. They're still moving forward. Only one person in the world is pulled out of Paris, and that's President Trump. So the rest of the world understands that the hoax is not what's happening in terms of climate. The hoax is in saying to people that it is a hoax, which is.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What the President did at the UN this September.

[John Kerry]

Yeah, but what's important to note is, you know, there was a headline the other day, Bloomberg, who said, you know, who believes in climate change? The stock market. And if you look at the stock market now, the index, which takes all your green energy under the, under the S and P compared to the s and P500, it's way ahead of it. It's moving much faster and better. The same thing for the NASDAQ 100, the same thing. The same thing for the MSCI Global Index. What does that tell you? It tells you the marketplace knows this transition has to happen. It's going to happen. It slowed down a little bit, but CEOs who have been canvassed and CFOs, chief financial officers say that they are all going to continue to invest and continue to move in the transition. And the transition now is moving to a point where the majority of the electricity that is new coming in the world, 85% is renewable, only 5% is nuclear and 5, 10% is fossil fuel. So there is a transition taking place which is profitable. And that profit motive is going to get more and more people seeing that there's money to be made. The marketplace has made a decision and that's going to be external of the politics. Now it's better if you have a country's government helping to facilitate, maybe providing incentives, but we're not dependent on that there, you know, we're seeing all kinds of new technologies, battery storage, geothermal, new nuclear. Nuclear in fact has enjoyed the largest resurgence in years and many places are now getting their power from clean energy, from nuclear.

[Christiane Amanpour]

This year was a revolution, actually huge sort of progress because the majority for the first time of energy was produced by renewables instead of coal.

[John Kerry]

Correct. So if you look at what China is doing, China has produced more renewables and deployed them than all of the rest of the world put together. They're obviously saying this is the market, this is where the world is going. So they're earning money and they're putting people to work. They see a future there. And the question has to be asked, why are other people fighting and pushing back and not doing this? You look at Solar. Solar in one hour provides 10,000 times the energy to the world that people use in that same hour. That's free. It just comes at us. We should be marshaling that more. And in Texas, in the United States, you're seeing more wind go up, more solar go up and that's lowering prices and helping them to balance their.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Which is a red state.

[John Kerry]

Yeah, that's the future.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay. So really. And the present. Yeah. And you'd be surprised actually that a deal maker, capitalist, president of the United States, a businessman, would be willing to have the US miss out on all of this. But let me just move to Israel and Gaza and the ceasefire, because you also did a lot of negotiating with this current prime minister over the past ceasefire, but no ceasefire really. And apparently hardening of lines, a so called yellow line inside Gaza. You know, there's not Enough aid coming into the Gazans on the other side. Where do you see this actually going? Because we also hear that Americans are heavily involved in planning what Gaza is going to look like. The latest reports that they're considering compounds in the part of Gaza that the Israelis occupy right now, I guess for Palestinians or what is this all saying to you?

[John Kerry]

It underscores the difficulty of the alignment that you face in the Middle east right now. Despite all the hoopla, despite the proclamations, all the high sounding rhetoric, there is no real ceasefire, fully ceasefire, that's being adhered to. And more importantly, there is no roadmap to peace. There is nothing there that still speaks to Palestinian aspirations. And most people who have dealt with this issue stand back from it a little and say, hey, wait a minute folks, you have to understand the lay of the land. The current government of Israel, every single member of the cabinet and the prime minister, well, the Prime Minister hasn't said that, but every single member of the cabinet, they don't support a Palestinian state in any way whatsoever.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, so as the Prime Minister said.

[John Kerry]

That, the Prime Minister said that most recently, but previously he had a different position. He said he was going to work towards that. Look, in the aftermath of October 7th, I understand the dynamics, everybody understands the dynamics of Israel have changed. October 7th changed it. And there are very few people who believe you can just plunk a pallian Palestinian state next to Israel now and get, you get away with it, that it would be safe, that it would be anything in terms of long term security. But you have to have a process that begins to build a different future and you can hold out aspirations for the longer term. Now on the Palestinian side, you don't have the kind of leadership or capacity to be able to come together and say, oh, there's going to be a state, you know, tomorrow, next month or next year, not even in five years. It's going to take time to build the capacity, time to have the education system begin to grow better and kids growing up with better sense of possibilities and aspirations. So you have much to change now and to respond to emotionally in terms of what has happened in Israel and in the region. But there has to be a roadmap to that. And I think Israel's true security will never be, needs will never be met until you have some reality to that roadmap. It can't be militarized. It can't. I mean, you can't have a, you have to have a demilitarized entity, whatever it is. You have to have the ability to achieve a genuine participation in the global community and the world. You have to grow year by year to prove to people this is different and this is worthy of peace. But to have nothing to continue to have the bombs and the, you know, deaths taking place, it really is almost a quiet status quo ante. And that's very dangerous.

[Christiane Amanpour]

On that note, Secretary of State, thank you for joining us.

[John Kerry]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And still to come, I talk with the celebrated photographer Annie Leibovitz about capturing the world's famous Trailblazing Women, Volume 2. That's just after the break.

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[Christiane Amanpour]

We turn now to a legendary photographer known for her intimate portrait portraits of some of the world's best known faces. Annie Leibovitz has amassed hundreds of front covers in her work for Rolling Stone magazine, Vanity Fair, Vogue and many others. And now, 25 years after the publication of her celebrated women collection, she's back with volume two. From writers, actors and musicians to CEOs, athletes and politicians, Gloria Steinem, Venus Williams, Michelle Obama, and even myself. Full disclosure, the original idea came from her partner, the late spring Susan Sontag, public intellectual. But it was recalling former first lady Hillary Clinton's famous rallying cry for women in Beijing, 1995, that spurred this one. Women's rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights. Hillary declared. I met up with Leibovitz on her swing through London to discuss this impressive body of work. Do you consider yourself somebody who champions women?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, I champion us. I mean, I never, ever want to separate women from men. You know, men have their stories. We don't have enough stories as women. We need to see ourselves. And when we put out that first book in 1999, it was. It was a surprise to me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Big and just to what you just said, women don't have as many stories. Men have plenty of stories, but in the first one Sontag wrote, portraits of women featured their beauty, portraits of men, their characters. Character. So Chimamamonda Ngozi Adichie, one of the great, great novelists and writers of our time, you have her there. You photographed her several times.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I mean, you took. The picture of her is quite long distance. She's sort of in. In the. In the background of the picture, almost.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There's a whole library in the library.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. Yes. I think that's phenomenal. I want to write what she's written for you. The first time Annie photographed me, more than 10 years ago at my home, she sensed my discomfort right away and knew that it was not merely about my general awkwardness with being photographed. It was spec. Specifically about my belly, which was newly postpartum. Although I would probably still have worried, even if it was, Annie's sanguine reaction was a relief. There was no dismissiveness, no judgment.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, you just don't. You know, it's so funny. I think she really sort of tied herself on to what Susan Sontag was writing about, when Susan did talk a lot about the gaze and how women are looked at and men aren't looked at that way. But I think Chimamanda didn't have the opportunity to read Gloria Steinem because, you know, Gloria wrote hers. She sent it over, and it was kind of this very nice essay on me, you know, And I called her up and I said, gloria, look, thank you very much. That's great. You know, we just really want to know what the hell is going on right now. Where are we? Write about yourself. Please write about yourself. And she has written about herself, and she's a good writer, and she took it to task. And I've been rereading that essay just to sort of have a front in front of me because I'm just a photographer.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're not just a photographer.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, I. I am.

[Christiane Amanpour]

No, You've shaped the way we see our cultural I'm face.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I'm not. I'm not.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're not just a photographer.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, but.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But here's the thing, Gloria, in 2000.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have. I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wait.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You have to wait.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to read this. This is where.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, I'm gonna read it. No, you're. No, I'm gonna read it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wait.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay. How we are seen, no doubt, changes how we see ourselves. This is for us. I know many people now feel architecture is going backwards, but when you have lived a long life, which I am lucky to have done, you have a context of compared to what we survived. McCarthy, we survived Nixon. We can survive what feels like regression. A perspective that maybe only my age, peers and I can have. But being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think that's really important, actually, for this moment. With the rollback of dei, with actually this administration removing women's contributions from the Pentagon from everywhere.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, if it is so oppressed back in the United States, back. Back in America, you can cut it with a knife. You can. You walk down the street. It's not the same as in London. Feels, you know, like people are, like, normal.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I do think, actually, it's important to have Gloria's perspective there. And she said about you that I didn't finish. She said, you are the tallest and most authoritative, unsure person that I've ever seen. Why do you think that is? I mean, you just said, oh, I'm only a photographer. Why do you. You have been so awarded, rewarded, changed the way we look at public figures and non public figures. I mean, you just. You're, like, right up there in the pantheon of our visual history. What makes you unsure?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, we'll move on.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, no, no. Someone just wrote about. It was writing about me for the introduction to the show in Spain, and he saw it as a strength. And it's the first time I looked at it and said, you know, that's interesting, you know, to see it as questioning something, stepping back and not being sure, which falls into all those stories about failing is important. Yeah, you know it is. And actually, you know, as a mother, you know that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, I do. I know all of that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm talking about as a mother.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And also the book is really for our daughters.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, that's really interesting because I love what Chimamanda said about how you, you know, no judgment, postpartum.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What I love is the Rihanna picture.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Because that heart. Back to your famous Demi Moore picture. Why did you do that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

She is. She's just phenomenal. I mean, she's so smart, so brilliant, and she loves fashion. And, you know, she took that Demi Moore picture and blew it out of the water. I mean, she just, you know, she just, you know. You know, she, you know, and so there she is pregnant with her first. First baby that was done for a fashion shoot for. For Vogue, you know, in Paris. And then the second baby, she's at the super bowl. And the third baby, she's announcing it, you know, at the Met Gala. So she's just out there, you know, she's just being dragged behind a car. I mean, I just think she's amazing.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What about Michelle Obama? I just thought that picture was phenomenal. She's always been an icon, but this is quite something. How different to the portrait you made for the. The COVID of Vogue, for instance.

[Ryan Reynolds]

We shot many, many times. And the very last one, she was just. It was so painful. I could tell that she was. Couldn't wait to get out of there on some level. And so I asked her. She was one of the first. I mean, I didn't do too many new shoots for this second.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But this is a new one, the Obama.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is brand new. Yeah. And I, And I asked her if she would sit, and, you know, she agreed right away. And then we got a call from her office saying, can Michelle Obama wear jeans? And I said, sure. You know, and then she showed up. But what's interesting about the little clip that she puts on, on her little, you know, Instagram is, is that you see her preparing to get into that moment, and they actually have her, you know, you know, putting her head back like that. And honestly, you know, I've said this before, but her assistant was standing next to me and she said, there's my first lady.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I also thought it interesting, given. Given all these portraits you've said in a masterclass video, you don't believe that it's the photographer's job to put their subjects at ease. Tell me about that, because you must have subject.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think it goes along with everything else. I just don't think I do anything special. I mean, I really come. I really do come from. I mean, I thought it was journalism. It was never journalism. It was, you know, repetage. It was personal repetage. I learned Cartier, Bresson, Robert Frank.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The camera was.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The camera was.

[John Kerry]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

When you came for photojournalism or reportage.

[Ryan Reynolds]

During the siege, it wasn't all reportage. You know, we did. I did. I felt a little. I felt I couldn't compete with the great war photographers that were there, you know, risking their lives. And, you know, it was unbelievable. But no, I. No, I enjoy Reportage. I don't think I can go back completely, you know, I mean, I love what I'm doing with the portraits. I was taught at the San Francisco Art Institute. I was. Went into the painting major, took a night class of photography. Much more exciting. Very, you know, move, you know, you move fast. You know, you're a young person. You know, it's. Painting was. You know, I was a bad painter. And I started working for Rolling Stone before I graduated. But I learned Cartier Bresson and Robert Frank were my idols. And we learned to frame within a 35 millimeter frame. So you learn to take the whole frame and use everything you have there. It's so interesting being alive this long and being able to work and find photography and being. Having the opportunity to try so many different ways to take pictures. In the very first book are a set of pictures that to me, were transformable. I mean, to me, in so many ways, they're the Showgirls, which are two pictures. And it totally broke up this whole idea that you're not going to get it in one frame necessarily. And also, I'm a huge fan of the photo story. Tina Brown asked me to work on an issue on women. And I thought about. I had made a small list, and I thought about Showgirls in Las Vegas. And I went out to photograph them, met them at night in their costumes, and then they came into the studio the next day. This woman came in. This is really true. This woman. Sue and McNamara came in. I said, can I help you? I couldn't recognize her because she came in out of her costume and out of her makeup. And I was just sort of. I mean, I still don't know what to make of it, quite honestly. And so I photographed her as herself and then photographed her in those clothes. I went back to New York, I said, susan, let's do the book. It was really. There was something that was.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What clicked for you. Clicked.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, such a pun.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Listen, I have to ask you, because it's such an extraordinary picture and it does define a lot of your oeuvre. And that is the John and Yoko.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, tell me about that. Because he was naked, she wasn't. And of course, it was taken a few hours before he was assassinated.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. Still an emotional image to me, because it changes with time. I mean, especially like after he died, after he was killed, you know, and then some time pass, you look at it and you see you really is. It turns from a story of love to a Goodbye. You know, so that's interesting about photography how over time, the stories sort of change in the imagery. In my youth, starting to work for Rolling Stone, I had talked John Winter into letting me go and photograph John Lennon in New York when he was doing the interviews. And I flew Youth Fair and stayed with friends. And John and Yoko couldn't have been nicer. They were very warm. They were just. It turned out. Yoko told me later that they were so, so surprised that Jan picked an unknown photographer, this, you know, to come and take their picture. That's why they were so, so nice. But it really set. Set the bar for me as far as, you know, how people should treat each other during these shoots, no matter who. Who they were, because I, of course, admired them so much. So it was over 10 years, and we were. Rolling Stone was doing a cover. I was told before I went out to shoot that day that they really just wanted a picture of John by himself. The. You know, no one really liked Yoko that much. You know, there was still that kind of myth that she broke up the Beatles. So, you know, I went over to see. To see them at the Dakota, and I, you know, I say to John, hey, they really just want me to shoot you. You know, it's like he said, well, we're gonna have to do something really, really good. We're gonna have to do something special. And. And I was thinking, you know, on their other Double Fantasy album, they're kissing and it's like romance was not that alive in 1980. And it was beautiful to see them kissing each other. And so I imagine them in an embrace, and they just, you know, I put them on the floor in their apartment, and John, you know, I imagine they both knew, which. Which really wasn't so unusual for both of them since, you know, two virgins, they had posed nude before. Anyway, at the last moment, Yoko didn't really want to take her clothes off. And I was a little perturbed. I mean, she. But I. I didn't know it would be what it. What it was. But she kept her clothes on and John's nude and he's clinging to her. And in those days before you shot film, you would shoot a Polaroid. So we pulled the Polaroid, and it's usually the Polaroid was always the picture. And then you would go take pictures and, you know, it was never as good as the Polaroid. But we pulled the Polaroid and John looked at it and he said, that's really my relationship. That's really. He was very happy with it. And so we took several more frames. And then, you know, I went away and I got a call from Jan that night and he said that, you know, John was. Was shot. So sorry. So we. So I went over to the hospital and waited to hear a final, you know, result that he. That he. That he had been killed. But I went into, you know, to Rolling Stones offices a day or two later, and they were mocking up a single picture of his. Of his head. And, you know, and I went into Jan's office, I said, jan, I promised John that they would both be on the COVID So he did. He changed it. He changed it to both of them on the COVID And it wouldn't have.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Been half as good had it not been the two of them, right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, no, because I think all the. All of our sights and energy in that shoot went to doing that photograph.

[John Kerry]

And.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And it didn't take long. I mean, it wasn't belabored. We just did a few frames. And so I've always been on the side of the subject, you know, I mean, I'm like, that's why I'm a bad journalist. I like doing that. You know, I like seeing the best of people if I can. And I also. I do have a hard time when I have to photograph someone I don't necessarily like. You know, it's not. I'm not really good at that, you know, But I think as photographers, though, and as a portrait photographer, you should be able to photograph everybody. You really should.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Timothy Chalamet, why is that caused such a hullabaloo?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Going on the Fountain Vogue, I had.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Breakfast with Ann and I said, anna Winter. Anna Winter, you know, and she said, I love the COVID I love the pictures. I don't read anything. We're just going for it. Timothee Chalamet was amazing. He. He. You know, when we talked before we started working, he said, I'll do anything you want to do. Let's do it. And I thought he looked so intelligent and, and so interesting in this kind of. And I. And I chose the city.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So we're talking about this art city.

[Ryan Reynolds]

In the Nevada desert, Michael Heiser's. And it was. Honestly, it was the hardest thing I've ever done because Michael said, no, I don't want anyone wearing Gucci shoes in front of something I've worked 50 years on. And I spent some time. I really felt like in our times right now, the city sort of exemplified a lot. And Michael worked on this for 50 years, and so he was like, no, So I worked on it and it was hard because I was in the middle. I was trying to not hurt the city or Michael Heiser's work. And I was trying to be, to work with Timothy and come up with something that was really different, you know, and interesting. And he was totally, he was amazing. Because it was like 110 degrees. No, there wasn't a cloud in the sky. I mean, it was really, really hard. But I love what we finally did. I'm proud of the work, actually. I'm really proud of the work. It's so different. And I love Anna for just doing something totally, you know, I mean, I, I.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Out of this world. Out of this world.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And, you know, Timothy was supposed to be the little prince, which I couldn't really tell him he was the little prince. And I let all the fashion go in on the COVID and the inside was kind of very low key, if not no fashion. It was just, it was really kind of an experiment, you know, of sorts of Annie.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you very much. And coming up after a break, he's the man behind the Grand Budapest Hotel and the fantastic Mr. Fox. We take a look back at my conversation with the award winning director, Wes Anderson.

[Dave (Fixer to Fabulous)]

Life on the Mars farm. It's anything but quiet for me and Dave.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Every day is a lot of moving parts.

[John Kerry]

Five kids do not go in the house.

[Dave (Fixer to Fabulous)]

A working farm and a renovation business that never stops.

[Wes Anderson]

We've been pushed to the limit.

[Christiane Amanpour]

If you build it, they will come. Oh, my gosh, it's so beautiful.

[Dave (Fixer to Fabulous)]

Just another day in this crazy, beautiful.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Life we call ours.

[Dave (Fixer to Fabulous)]

Fixer to fabulous season premiered December 2nd at 8 on HGTV.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Next to celebrating a movie director who attained culture status for his offbeat films painted in glorious technicolour, London's Design museum is now showcasing Wes Anderson's distinctive personal archive, charting the evolution of his films from Rushmore to the Grand Budapest Hotel to his latest, the Phoenician scheme. Just after that film released this past spring, I spoke to Wes Anderson from New York. Wes Anderson, welcome to our program.

[Wes Anderson]

Thank you. Thank you, Christiane.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I know you've done a load of films. I'm not sure which this one is, but people have now come to describe your films as sort of Andersonian, Anderson esque. Do you accept that? Do you see that there is a vision and a visual and an aesthetic?

[Wes Anderson]

I, I have to say I do. I think, you know, and I don't know how many movies I've, I think I've done 11 or 12 or something like that. You Know, for me, every. When I make a new film, I'm thinking of it as a clean slate, a fresh start, new characters, new story. To me, it's a completely different thing. But every time I release a trailer for the next one, the first thing I hear is, you could tell it was me in the first 10 seconds. And I've had to accept that that is simply true.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Is it good or bad?

[Wes Anderson]

You know, it's not exactly. Well, I think it's more like handwriting or something. It's, you know, my identity. I can't. I can't. I can't change my handwriting. It's just the way it comes out when I move my hand across. When I move my pencil across the paper. And I don't. You know, I. Even though I'm trying to make decisions to do something different every time and surprise myself and anyone else, I sort of accept that I have a certain kind of voice that happens to be quickly identifiable.

[John Kerry]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You also have often quite a lot of the same characters. Right. I mean, you go back to people like Tom Hanks and others. I'm just saying Tom Hanks because I just kind of recognize him. But there are many others. Why do you do that? I'm really fascinated by that.

[Wes Anderson]

Well, I always liked. From the. From when I first started making films, which is a very long time ago, I liked the idea of having a sort of stock company, like a theater troupe. I always thought of Bergman, you know, who had these. This group of actors or someone like. Like. Well, you know, like. Like. Like Powell and Pressburger, England. There are. There are actors who appear and reappear. I always like that. And I love the start of a movie being a kind of reunion. The other thing is, over the years, I've gotten to know and work with a good number of my very favorite actors. So there's something to be said for I already know my face. So many of my favorites, I go back to them and see if I can lure them in again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I said Tom Hanks. But in the Phoenician scheme, you also have Scarlett Johansson, Jeffrey Wright, et cetera. You've worked with all of them before. Let's just talk quickly about the plot. So it is a father daughter story. It's quite complicated, filled with all sorts of unpredictable twists and turns. But at the heart of it, it is, as I say, a father and a daughter building a relationship. And this larger than life father has all sons, except for this one daughter. And at one point he says, you're going to be my heir. So I'm going to play this clip and then we'll talk about it. The father is Zaza Korda, played, as we know, by Benzio del Toro. And we'll talk about the daughter Mia in a second. Let's play this clip.

[Benicio del Toro]

I've appointed you sole heir to my estate, which you may come into sooner rather than later. I'm provisionally manager of my affairs after the event of my actual demise, on a trial basis.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Why?

[Benicio del Toro]

Why what?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Why sooner rather than later, since you survived again. And why am I solo to your estate? You have eight sons. At last count, nine sons. Nine sons. What about them?

[Benicio del Toro]

They're not my heirs.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Why not?

[Benicio del Toro]

I have my reasons.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Which are what?

[Benicio del Toro]

My reasons. I'm not saying. I'm saying. I'm not saying.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's so Wes Anderson. Of course I was wrong. I said Mia, but she's Liesl in the film. But she's Mia Throppleton in real life and her mother just happens to be Kate Winslet.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Were you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How did you know that she was such a good actress?

[John Kerry]

Had.

[Christiane Amanpour]

She had, you know, a body of work?

[Wes Anderson]

I saw her audition a little, you know, a little quicktime on my laptop among a thousand other auditions for this role. And she was. It was, you know, we'd given them each. Each actress auditioning, we'd given them a scene, we'd prepared a sort of scene that's something like what's in the movie to play the character. And she made. It seemed like she was. It seemed like a documentary. It seemed. It seemed like just documentary footage, totally authentic. And I didn't know her, any family connection. I didn't know anything about her at all. I just saw this little clip, but I basically watched it and thought, I think we may be able to shut down our search right now. I think we might have her. And when I introduced her to Benicio Del Toro, the two of them together had something just chemical instantly that I. Well, let's film that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So am I right? Is it a father daughter story? What is your vision about this film?

[Wes Anderson]

Well, you know, I think there's something like when. When you're, you know, when you. When you're. When you're. When you're putting together a work of journalism, you're gathering all your facts and information and impressions and observations and ordering them into something that's a story. And I think the same thing happens when you write a fictional movie, except there's no fact checker and you use your imagination and you don't really know where it's all coming From I find. I don't know exactly my intentions for the story. It sort of reveals itself as it goes along and that's how it happens for me, anyway. And this movie, I thought, was a movie about a businessman and his grand venture that he's undertaking and this sort of brutality of this very rich man, Benicio. But somehow the story led us in another direction and there was a layer to this character that I sort of hadn't anticipated. And it became, I think, the center of the movie is entirely what you described. It's a father daughter story. And his business plan that is wildly complex is almost a ritual for him to get back together with her. They've been estranged for many years and.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I've omitted to mention because in that scene, of course, she is wearing a nun's habit. She's a novice, she wants to be a nun. And I assume that's because they're estranged. So tell us why.

[Wes Anderson]

There's a sort of biblical motif throughout this film. You know, this character, he keeps getting killed. You know, he's. He had. There's a series of almost successful assassination attempts and he's confronting his own death again and again and it begins to change him. And so anyway, there's a sort of biblical element to the whole. To the film. And part of that is his daughter, who's been in a Swiss convent all this time. She's deeply. She's a devout girl, which he is not. He is an atheist. But anyway, their beliefs and. And their own spiritual perspectives are a big part of the story that unfolds.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I want to play another clip because the clips are really fun. So in this scene, Bjorn, a Swedish tutor played by Michael Cera, he makes an unfortunate discovery on Zaza's private plane. Here's the clip. Is this supposed to be here? It was under the lunch trolley. Oh, dear.

[Benicio del Toro]

How much time does this have?

[Christiane Amanpour]

18 minutes.

[Benicio del Toro]

Perfectly fine. We land in 10. Myself, I feel very safe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Wes. My head is all over the place today. I've just flown on the red eye. So I said Swedish, he's Norwegian. It's cool. He's in control. He's sort of same thing, you know. Don't tell them that. Yeah. Anyway, that's a really cool, cool scene. I want to ask. I want to ask you, though. You talked about, you know, some of the motif and the relationships and I noticed that the film is dedicated to your father in law, to the memory of your father in law, Fouad Malouf. Is he an inspiration for Zaza and also is confronting this Sort of near death by Zaza all the time. Is it the way you are sort of exploring death?

[Wes Anderson]

Well, I think the answer to the second question is probably yes. I think, you know, I mean, you know, I'm 56 and the number of friends who've died in the last 15 years, it's just they're one after another and including both parents. So it's on my mind.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It was also dedicated to your father in law, who hid the memory of your father in law, who also is deceased, obviously.

[Wes Anderson]

Yes. And he, Fouad, my. My wife's father, Fouad, he, you know, he's not the character in the movie is a. Is at least at the start of the movie. He's someone who's who. Who presents himself as completely, completely without ethics. And he's ruthless. And Fouad was not like that. He was gentle, he was wise, he was an engineer and a businessman, but he was intimidating the instant you laid eyes on him. He was a good person to walk into a restaurant with because it changed the mood. You got special attention just because they were scared of him. And his personality somehow started to go more and more into this character because I loved him and I looked up to him and I enjoyed him from the first 10 seconds after I met him and he died. I guess it's about two years, two and a half years ago. But anyway, he was this very special person. And somehow by the end of it, I thought this movie, I have to dedicate it to Fua because he's the inspiration.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me ask you finally, how have your animated movies influenced your live action films? What's the sort of process?

[Wes Anderson]

Yes, well, I, you know, I made an animated roald Dahl Fantastic Mr. Fox in 2000, 2005 or 7 or something like that. And I'd never done anything like that before. We made it in England and I had a whole new group of collaborators. And I saw this process of how the movie is prepared, how you prepare for the animators to do their work. It's quite careful. And it changed my way of working in live action too, because I kind of saw how I could make, I think, fewer mistakes, how I could be a little more meticulously prepared for a movie shoot, which, which is a giant thing in a way. And so I, you know, for me, it made it more fun to make movies using some of those techniques. And it also, you know, I think it, I mean, there are side effects which I don't know if I fully, totally understand. I think it changed. Changed things about control in my movies maybe as well. But anyway, I think every time for me, every time I make a movie, I gain some new collaborators who will come with me somewhere and I pick up some new sort of methods and techniques that we'll see if we use again.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Amazing. Thank you very much. Wes Anderson, it's great to talk to you. The Phoenician scheme.

[Wes Anderson]

Thank you. Thank you, Christian. Thank you so much. My pleasure to be here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The holiday season is here and CNN Underscored is your VIP pass to unique gifts at the best prices. From expert recommendations to can't miss deals, we've wrapped it all up for you. Shop holiday gifting now at underscore.

[John Kerry]

Com.