Israel Marks a Grim Anniversary

Summary

Amanpour: "Israel Marks a Grim Anniversary"

Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Bianna Golodryga (CNN International, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour)
Guests: Jeremy Diamond (CNN), Omer Shem Tov (former hostage), Amir Thibon (journalist, survivor & author), James Elder (UNICEF), Aziz Abu Sara (peace activist), Taylor Harris (author)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the somber two-year anniversary of the October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks on Israel—a date that still deeply scars the Israeli psyche and alters Palestinian reality. Through emotional personal testimony, first-hand reporting from Gaza, and perspectives from advocates and peace builders, the program seeks to reflect on the trauma, ongoing war, humanitarian crisis, prospects for peace, and the urgency for accountability and reconciliation. The latter part shifts to explore new controversies over autism policy in the U.S., featuring an interview with memoirist Taylor Harris.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Two Years Since October 7: National Trauma and Hostage Crisis

Hostage Square and National Mood

• [03:22] Jeremy Diamond reports live from Hostage Square in Tel Aviv, describing widespread grief, unresolved trauma, and ongoing solidarity as families of the 48 remaining hostages gather on this painful anniversary.
  • Quote: “Unlike other terrorist attacks, where you have commemorations years later, Israelis are still very much in that moment of trauma, in that moment of war that continues two years later...” — Jeremy Diamond [04:20]
• Families maintain public pressure on the government, demanding action for the hostages’ release as negotiations seem closer to a deal.

Firsthand Testimony from a Former Hostage

• [06:26] Omer Shem Tov, abducted from the Nova Music Festival and held for 505 days, recounts the terror and chaos:
  • Quote: “I remember me and two of my friends running for our lives, seeing people just getting shot everywhere, bodies everywhere…” — Omer Shem Tov [06:26]
  • He testifies to the lasting mental impact and the urgency in bringing the remaining hostages home.

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2. Personal and National History: Amir Thibon’s Dual Perspective

Survivor, Journalist, Author

• [08:49] Amir Thibon, reporter and survivor of the October 7th attacks on Kibbutz Nahal Oz, reflects on trauma, courage, anger at systemic failures, and the critical importance of ending the war:
  • Quote: “It’s quite shocking that we’ve reached two years and [my friend and neighbor Omri Miran] is still not with us... The most important mission is to make October 7th end. October 7th will only end when we reach a deal to bring back the hostages and finish the war. Until that happens, we are still in October 7th.” — Amir Thibon [08:49]
• He highlights the significance of documenting not only personal tragedy, but also the historical roots—writing in English to counter international denial and contextualize his kibbutz’ founding hope for coexistence:
  • Quote: “You cannot understand October 7th without understanding what is Hamas, what are the kibbutzim, these small agricultural communities... the days of optimism and the peace process, the failures...” — Amir Thibon [11:59]
• Thibon emphasizes the urgent task ahead: rescue hostages, end the war, and—after such lengthy displacement—return his family and friends home only when safety allows.
  • Quote: “We renovated the house... it looks completely new... but we are waiting for the war to end... That’s what right now is keeping us out of our home at the moment.” — Amir Thibon [15:07]
• Closing plea for international engagement:
  • Quote: “This is not an Israeli issue. This is a humanitarian issue. ...Don’t leave Egypt without an agreement, because if we renew the war after already securing some kind of a pause, I don't want to imagine what the consequences will be. … It's urgent. We have to do it.” — Amir Thibon [19:14]

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3. Gaza: Catastrophe and Hope Amid Ruins – UNICEF’s James Elder

On the Ground in Khan Younis

• [21:39] James Elder of UNICEF paints a visceral picture of Gaza: collapsed health infrastructure, “everyone has gone beyond rock bottom”, children wounded, dying, living in tents, and hospitals overwhelmed.
  • Quote: “Everyone has gone beyond rock bottom… No children here in school. That bedrock—education—no children are in school. Those three children shot by a quadcopter...” — James Elder [22:02]
• Despite attempts at ceasefires and hope for President Trump's 20-point plan, Elder expresses skepticism, describing continued aid obstructions, dangerous working conditions for UN staff, and looting due to sheer scarcity.
• He makes a direct, operational plea:
  • Quote: “We know what works because we saw in the ceasefire—give us multiple entry points… Ceasefires speak to children going to bed at night, not being bombed, getting nutritious food, and hostages going home. It’s not actually as complicated as leaders make out.” — James Elder [27:19]

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4. Choosing Humanity: Palestinian Peace Activist Aziz Abu Sara

Reconciling Grief and Advocating for Justice

• [31:03] Aziz Abu Sara recounts the formative trauma of his brother’s killing at age 10, the years of vengeance and then the commitment to break cycles of hatred:
  • Quote: “Every time I chose vengeance, I was being a slave to the person who killed my brother. ...It’s up to me to change and shape the future and not be doomed and controlled by the actions of those who killed my brother.” — Aziz Abu Sara [31:03]
• Stresses that peace cannot wait for the war’s end, citing grassroots reconciliation work with Israelis also bereaved by violence.
• On the U.S.-proposed ceasefire deal:
  • Quote: “Anything that can stop the killing is something I welcome. ...However, the 20 piece plan does not fully solve the problem... [it] is a band aid...” — Aziz Abu Sara [35:58]
• Calls it “criminal” to postpone a just solution to another generation.

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5. Autism in the Political Crosshairs: Taylor Harris Interview

Segment shifts to U.S. domestic policy debate

Personal Narrative Challenges Harmful Rhetoric

• [39:43] Taylor Harris, author and mother of three, two with autism, shares the confusion and discrimination faced by families—especially families of color—navigating diagnosis and support.
• She critiques recent U.S. presidential policy linking Tylenol use during pregnancy to autism (without scientific evidence) and efforts to frame autism as a “devastating burden.”
  • Quote: “Autism, for me, has been so different because of how it can look in kids like mine and in myself…. What is actually harder for me… has been getting others to believe that it’s actually really hard sometimes with what they don’t see.” — Taylor Harris [41:56]
• Harris warns of the dangers of policy driven by spectacle, not science:
  • Quote: “Whatever their motive is… it’s possibly going to cost lives. ...If Taylor Harris shows up and says, ‘I don’t think Tylenol causes autism… but I support President Trump because autism is back in the spotlight,’ I have spent a lot of time thinking… and I don’t think I can.” — Taylor Harris [50:22]
• Importance of nuanced understanding:
  • Quote: “We often talk about autism as a spectrum... I sort of love the idea of it being a constellation because there are all these different parts of it...” — Taylor Harris [46:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Enduring Trauma:
  “Israelis are still very much in that moment of trauma, in that moment of war that continues two years later…”
  — Jeremy Diamond [04:20]

• On Personal Courage & Failure:
  “There is a level of anger toward the government and the military for the failure, but also a lot of appreciation for the people who did come and fight, and some of them lost their lives.”
  — Amir Thibon [08:49]

• On Humanity over Politics:
  “This is not an Israeli issue. This is a humanitarian issue. ...Don’t let anyone sabotage these negotiations. Let’s get a deal this time. It’s urgent.”
  — Amir Thibon [19:14]

• On Gaza’s Catastrophe:
  “No children here in school. ...That’s not an irregular 30 minutes, that’s just any 30 minutes here as it has been for two years.”
  — James Elder [22:02]

• On Refusing the Cycle of Revenge:
  “Every time I chose vengeance, I was being a slave to the person who killed my brother. …Rather, it’s up to me to change and shape the future and not be doomed and controlled by the actions of those who killed my brother.”
  — Aziz Abu Sara [31:03]

• On Autism and Society:
  “I think seeing it [autism] as sort of like a burden on society… which needs to be eradicated, like that is completely different. There are a thousand genes marked for autism. …But I see it very differently than the way we hear the administration talking about it.”
  — Taylor Harris [44:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hostage Square & Anniversary Reflections: [03:22]–[06:26]
• Omer Shem Tov’s Testimony: [06:26]–[07:14]
• Amir Thibon: Survivor’s Perspective & The “Gates of Gaza”: [08:49]–[16:43]
• Neelie Margalit on Tunnel Captivity: [17:34]–[19:14]
• UNICEF’s James Elder from Gaza: [21:39]–[29:15]
• Aziz Abu Sara on Peace and Justice: [31:03]–[37:42]
• Taylor Harris on Autism Policy and Experience: [38:56]–[53:47]

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a poignant mosaic of voices—those grieving, surviving, rebuilding, and advocating for change—on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, interwoven with deep introspection on the cost of political failure and the enduring necessity for peace rooted in justice. The latter segment provides a critical lens on political misuse of health science and the lived realities of those affected by policy.

Each account underscores the message: peace, dignity, and humanity are urgent imperatives not just for the Middle East, but for all societies wrestling with trauma, conflict, and the need for compassionate leadership.

Transcript

[Bianna Golodryga]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up. Israel marks a grim anniversary, two years since the Hamas attacks that forever changed the nation. I speak with 10-7-survor, the esteemed Israeli journalist Amir Tubon. And we revisit testimony from former hostages held by Hamas. Also on the ground in Gaza, UNICEF spokesman James Elder shares what he's seeing in Khan Younis and how war has ravaged the enclave. Then Palestinian peace activist Aziz Abu Sara on Looking for light in the darkness.

[Taylor Harris]

Plus, autism for me has been so different because of how it can look in kids like mine.

[Bianna Golodryga]

This boy we Made. Writer Taylor Harris tells Michelle Martin what it's like to be autistic and raise autistic children in the era of RFK Jr. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianica Rodriguez York, sitting in for Christian Amanpour. We begin in the Middle east where a push towards peace is underway in Egypt as key negotiators from Israel. Hamas and the United States are looking to find common ground and reach agreement on President Donald Trump's 20 point plan to end the war. Hamas and Israel have both voiced support. Here's Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Trump says that they are very close to reaching a deal, but optimism continues to grow, yet huge obstacles remain. I want to get to one of those who in Israel not only has been covering this war as a journalist for two years now, but also was a victim that day as his kibbutz was so brutally attacked. Let's bring in Amir Thibon or actually, I'm so sorry. Let's go to Jeremy diamond who is in Hostage Square. Jeremy, you have been covering this war. I believe the assignment where you moved to Israel covering the region began just a day OR 2 Before October 7th. And this is the story you began your coverage with. You've spent time on the ground there covering and speaking with hostage family members everyday Israelis who've been touched by this horrific day and obviously the war that began a few weeks after October 7, 2023 in Gaza. Let's just start where you are right now in Hostage Square and talk to us about what this second year marks for so many still waiting for this war to come to an end and the hostages to come home.

[Jeremy Diamond]

Yeah, bianna. On the two year anniversary of October 7, it is a somber mood here in Hostage Square and across Israel as Israelis commemorate the day when two years ago thousands of Hamas militants stormed across the border into Israel and killed nearly 1,200 people, the majority of whom were civilians. They were slaughtered in their homes. They were killed in bomb shelters as they huddled for safety, rockets. And also, of course, at that Nova Music festival in southern Israel. And more than 250 people were also taken hostage on that day, 48 of whom remain in captivity inside of Gaza. And today, mixed with that somber mood is also a sense of hope, a sense of optimism that perhaps these negotiations happening in Sharm El Sheikh in Egypt will potentially yield an end of the war and the return of those 48 hostages, 20 of whom are believed to be alive. You can see behind me here that Israelis are seated together. They are really huddling, holding themselves together in this moment. They're listening to music right now in Hostages Square, just spending time taking it all in, taking stock of what has taken place over the last two years. But unlike, you know, with. With other terrorist attacks, where you have commemorations years later, Israelis are still very much in that moment of trauma, in that moment of war that continues two years later inside of the Gaza Strip, and also still two years later continuing to fight. I've been spending time over the weekend, I spent time with Vicky Cohen, the mother of Nimrod Cohen, an Israeli soldier who was taken captive on that day and is one of those 48 still held in Gaza. And I can tell you that they will continue to fight until the moment when they come home. Even right now, even with that hope and optimism, they feel it's important to continue to hold the Israeli government's feet to the fire. And so amid these commemorations, we are also seeing continuation of demonstrations from those hostage families who are continuing to demand that this Israeli government follow through in these negotiations and actually reach a conclusion, a positive conclusion that will bring those loved ones home and end the war in Gaza once and for all.

[Bianna Golodryga]

It is a reminder of how small that country is and how every single person in Israel has been touched in some way, shape or form by the tragedy and the horrific attack of October 7th and the war that has ensued after that. And so many of them have come every single week to that square where you are right now and demanding the hostages come home seeking peace, seeking some sort of resolution so the country can start to heal. Jeremy Dimon, thank you so much. And earlier, I spoke with Omer Shem Tov, who was held hostage in Gaza for 505 days after being abducted by Hamas from the Nova Music Festival on October 7. He joined me from Hostages Square in Tel Aviv and gave me his memories of that extremely difficult day.

[Jeremy Diamond]

I remember me and two of my friends running for our lives, seeing people just getting Shot everywhere, bodies everywhere we ran to. I remember as we get into a.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Vehicle and we tried to run away.

[Jeremy Diamond]

But the Hamas terrorists, they stopped us.

[Taylor Harris]

In the middle of a road immediately.

[Jeremy Diamond]

They started shooting us.

[Bianna Golodryga]

They didn't give much notice if we're.

[Jeremy Diamond]

Soldiers, if we're citizens, they just started shooting us immediately. And I remember two of my friends getting shot. One of them, he started running away.

[Taylor Harris]

Unfortunately, he was also kidnapped and he was brutally murdered while in captivity.

[Jeremy Diamond]

But, you know, I remember that day so clearly.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Today when I woke up in the.

[Jeremy Diamond]

Morning, everything just flew past me. And it's crazy to think that we're two years into it and there are still hostages there.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Amir Thibon has been following this all too closely as well, not only as a correspondent for Haaretz, but also as a Survivor of October 7th. That day he was sheltering with his family as Hamas attacked his home in Kibbutznachol Oz and was eventually rescued by his own father, Naom, a retired general who drove from Tel Aviv to save his family. Amir wrote about it all in his book, the Gates of Gaza. His father's act of bravery is also the subject of a new documentary, the Road Between Us. Amir, welcome to the program. And you know, you're a very familiar face for our viewers because you come on typically as a reporter to give us the latest updates on the war and the situation with the hostages and any sort of agreement on that front. But today is different. Now. It is the two year mark of that horrific day where you as a father, as an Israeli, as a son, as a husband, were sheltering in your safe room for hours, for hours waiting for the military that never came. Instead, it came in the form of your father, a former military general, to rescue you, as we are two years now after that horrific date. How does this commemoration today differ for you from even last year's?

[Amir Thibon]

Biana, first of all, I want to thank you for continuing to highlight October 7th and the suffering of the hostages and the urgency of rescuing them and bringing them back to their families, including my neighbor and friend, Omri Miran, who was kidnapped from his home in Kibbutz Nachal Oz, a civilian community on the border with Gaza, kidnapped in front of the eyes of his two young daughters. And we are still fighting two years later to bring him back alive to his family. It's quite shocking that we've reached two years and he's still not with us. In terms of the memory, this is a difficult day for everybody. It's a day when we remember the catastrophe of what happened on October 7. We also remember the courage and bravery of the individuals, the soldiers, the policemen, the civilians who did come and fight. And you were right to say that the military as an organization failed on October 7th. But I do want to mention that a lot of young soldiers, and some older ones as well, showed great acts of courage and did everything they could to rescue civilians also in my community. And so it's a very complicated day because there is a level of anger toward the government and the military for the failure, but also a lot of appreciation for the people who did come and fight, and some of them lost their lives. And I think the most important mission is to make October 7th end. And October 7th will only end when we reach a deal to bring back the hostages and finish the war. Because until that happens, we are still in October 7th.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And you're right to point out the bravery of individuals there. We should also note that I believe several hundred soldiers died that day as well, fighting the Hamas terrorists. And since the war began, I think that number is close to 1,000 at this point, some 900 total. Let's talk about your story in the sense of you deciding to write this book, the Gates of Gaza, which I was fortunate enough to be asked to blurb. It's a fantastic book. You merge the events and the trauma of October 7th with the trauma and the hope that went into the inception of the kibbutz Nahol Oz, right there on the border with Gaza that was built decades prior with the hopes of a younger generation of coexistence and living side by side with neighbors. There were days of great optimism over the course of those decades, and obviously sorrow as well. Why was it important for you to not only write a book about the tragedy that you and your family experienced that day, but about the bigger picture of the project, that is the kibbutzim that were built right along the border with Gaza.

[Amir Thibon]

Well, when I decided to write about October 7th, and it took me some time, but when I decided to write about it, I knew that I wanted to write it in English, because my urge, and perhaps my mission, was to tell the world what had happened. And, you know, Biana, from October 8th, already there were people who denied and minimized and even justified the atrocities of October 7th. And I wanted to put out a story of what happened, the story of a family, of a community, and perhaps also of a country, but from a very personal and communal point of view. But I realized that if I want to tell this story to an international audience, and this book has been published in English, and it's been translated into German and French and Italian and Romanian and other languages. I realized that if I wanted to tell the world about it, I have to also bring the history. Because you cannot understand October 7th without understanding what is Hamas, what are the kibbutzim, these small agricultural communities on the border that were attacked on October 7th. You need to learn the history of the relationship between Israel and Gaza. The conflict, the days of optimism and the peace process, the failures, the relationship between Netanyahu, the prime minister, and Hamas, because for many years, he had a policy of emboldening Hamas and strengthening Hamas and even asking different countries to give money to Hamas. So all of that is part of the story. And if you want to understand what happened on that day, the history has to be a big part of the story. And the way I did it in the book is for every chapter of October 7th, there is then a history chapter, and the history is told through the personal stories of my neighbors, people from my kibbutz. It's not just kind of like, you know, running through the events, but it's telling the history through the personal life experience of people who've been living on the border, through the wars, through the peace days, through the optimism and the pessimism, and explaining through their stories how we got to October 7th.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I see there that you currently are in the north of the country, the northern part of Israel, the kibbutzim are all in the south, as was Nikhol Oz. And I wonder if you are planning at some point to go back to Nachol Oz. And the reason I ask specifically today is I just listened to an incredibly powerful interview with Eli Sharabi, who was also a hostage that was released several months ago to find out that his wife and daughters were murdered. On October 7, he was taken from Kibbutz Berry. And he said that he's grateful that his wife and daughters were not buried there and that while he loved the memories that they formed while living on Berri, the next chapter of his life will not be there. Where will the next chapter of your life be?

[Amir Thibon]

First of all, because you mentioned him, I have to say that Elie has been a hero for many in Israel and around the world, for his advocacy for the hostages who are still held in Gaza, also for his very important demand that there will be a commission of inquiry in Israel to investigate the failures of October 7th, something that, unbelievably, the Netanyahu government has refused to do for two years now. And he famously said that putting up such a commission to Investigate the failures so that we can learn and improve. It's not a left wing issue and it's not a right wing issue. It's just about. About being straight with the people. So just a word about Eli and regarding our own family. We are planning to return to Nahaloz. I've been to the house many, many times since October 7th. I go there every week. Basically. We renovated the house. It looks completely new. All the bullet holes, all the broken glass, all the hand grenades, everything that was done to our house, we completely took care of it. It's a beautiful home. We are waiting for the war to end because Nahal Oz is very close to Gaza. And at night and also during the day, you have massive explosions all the time. It's very traumatic. It's not good for our children who live through October 7th. It's not good for anybody. And we are pushing for the war to end, first of all for the hostages who need to be saved, then for any prospect of peace in the future, and also so that we could go back home, because that's what right now is keeping us out of our home at the moment.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And I would imagine waiting for your friend Omari Mehran to come home as well. His sister Nish, number one.

[Amir Thibon]

That's number one, the hostages.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. And his wife has been traveling. I believe she's in the US or was in the US this week, continuing to advocate for his release. And we know the conditions that the hostages are being held in right now in tunnels, barely alive. We've seen some of the horrific propaganda videos released by Hamas. Can only imagine the torture that they are enduring. And I'd like to play some sound from Kristian's earlier interview with a former hostage, Neelie Margalit, who described suffocating under some of those tunnels. Here's what she said to Kristian at the time.

[Michelle Martin]

I honestly can't imagine what it would be like to be trapped and caught into a tunnel like that so far underground. Probably very little fresh air, very little ability to move. What was it like for you? Did you feel you were going to suffocate?

[Bianna Golodryga]

Did you think you were?

[Michelle Martin]

Were you frightened of the tunnels?

[Bianna Golodryga]

We were in a tunnel which was about 40 meters underground, so oxygen was very little. We felt like we were suffocating all the time. It was really hard to breathe. And also because there was a lot of elderly people with me, then it had other effects. You know, it was hard for them to breathe. Someone had asthma, which it make it harder to breathe. The smell is terrible. People were wounded when they were taken, when they were abducted from their home. So the healing of the wound in an environment without enough oxygen, it took a lot longer than it normally takes. Amir, that interview was over a year ago, and she had been thankfully released months prior to that. So one can only imagine what the experience is like for the remaining hostages. Just again, we cannot speak enough about them. So I want to leave these last few seconds for you to tell our viewers and the world about why it's so important from a humanity standpoint, not only to bring your friend home, but to bring them all home.

[Amir Thibon]

Yeah. This is not an Israeli issue. This is a humanitarian issue. This is an issue for the world. Of course, for us Israelis, it's the most important thing, but it's really an issue for humanity. And I want to urge the Trump administration, the president and everybody who is involved, get these negotiations done. Get a deal this time. Some things may have to be amended, some things may have to change. But don't leave Egypt without an agreement, because if we renew the war after already securing some kind of a pause, I don't want to imagine what will be the consequences. So don't let anyone sabotage these negotiations. Let's get a deal this time. It's urgent. We have to do it.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yes, we do. Amir Thabon, thank you for everything you've been doing to advocate for an end to this war and the hostages coming home as well. My best to you and your family and your father and daughters and wife. Everyone. Appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

[Amir Thibon]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Michelle Martin]

I'm actually getting very specific suggestions on.

[Taylor Harris]

Things we can fix at the FDA. Dr. Marty Makary.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Earlier this year, he stepped into the role of FDA commissioner.

[Taylor Harris]

And there's no shortage of things that.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Are broken to fix at the fda. What does he want to reform? And how does he see the FDA's role at a time when science, politics, and public health are more entangled than ever before? Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever.

[Jeremy Diamond]

You get your podcasts.

[Bianna Golodryga]

For Palestinians inside Gaza, the past two years has brought an unprecedented level of death and destruction as Israel responded to the hamas attacks of October 7 with overwhelming force. More than 67,000 people are believed to have been killed in Gaza. Many more have been injured or lacking basic necessities. So as negotiations for an end to the war continue in Egypt right now, what would a ceasefire mean for the people on the ground? And what Aid is most urgently needed now. Let's bring in James Elder, a spokesperson for UNICEF who joins the program live from Khan Younis in Gaza. James, welcome to the program. I don't even know how many times, how many times have you been to Gaza since October 7, 2023?

[James Elder]

Hey Bjana, this is my sixth time since the horrors of October 7th.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Your sixth time you're in Khan Younis right now. We've talked and covered the devastation there. I'm wondering because it's so important each time you're there for us, for you to walk us through and explain what have you seen this latest visit.

[James Elder]

Everyone has gone beyond rock bottom. I don't know how people continue right now, Bjarna, that mix the immense physical pain that people have got, having lost everything, having everything taken away from them and on top of that the psychological trauma. But to try and give a sense of that, let me just. The first half hour, my first half hour going back into a hospital which was in the middle area in Derri Bala Bjarna. First half hour I was in a tent outside and there were three children, three little children all who'd been shot by quadcopters. One of them getting water, one of them playing, one of them trying to get wood. No children here in school. That bedrock education. No children are in school. Those three children shot by a quadcopter. I go into the hospital. There's no other way to explain it. It's a war zone. There are children and the elderly. Let's not forget the elderly in hospital corridors bleeding, screaming, despite doctors and nurses running 24 hours a day who also spend their nights living in tents because their homes have been destroyed. There was a little boy on the floor who'd been shot. He'd been there for five hours. His mum said finally Piana. They got him onto a stretcher. The doctors put a yellow blanket on his child if they're critical, a blue one if they will die within an hour if they don't get help. He got taken away. Then a little girl came in, Shyam, a five year old girl who had just been pulled from the rubble with all that look of terror and dust and ash on her. She was okay. Doctors worked out no internal injuries but no one had yet that point told her that her mom and her dad had been her mum and her sister rather had been killed in that attack. And then Bianna this within half an hour I go into the icu. There's a little six year old girl I'm really noticing because she's Got these beautiful bobs. So her parent has really cared for her on that day of the airstrike. But she's in a critical condition. As the doctor's explaining her situation. Aya dies. Aya dies in front of us. This was 30 minutes in Gaza, Bjarna. That's not an irregular 30 minutes, that's just any 30 minutes here as it has been for two years.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And now as the world is focused on this war hopefully coming to an end, this 20 point plan that the President has presented, that Prime Minister Netanyahu has signed off on, that Hamas appears to have signed off on as well. But we are still obviously waiting for negotiators to work out the final points. What are you hearing from Palestinians there on the ground about how hopeful perhaps they are that this time will actually be the end of the war? How much are they aware of what's going on in Egypt?

[James Elder]

Very aware. You know, this is one of the most literate societies on the planet. One of the highest literacy rates. Education has been a bedrock here for Palestinians. It's a reason they have consistently recovered from atrocities, not just in the last two years, but prior to that. They're also very savvy. They saw many of the ceasefire agreements that they've come to learn with charades in 2024. But Bjarna, there's a lot of hope. You know, you're talking about mums and dads who've had their home destroyed. They've lost the ability to feed their child, they've lost the ability to care for their child. It's a very, very dark moment when a child looks into their parents eyes and realizes, mum and dad can no longer protect me or a parent realizes that they've lost the ability to give their child two square meals a day. They've had their dignity taken from them. Hope is all they've got left. But they need to see concrete change on the ground. And right now, for example, we're not seeing that, you know, we're not seeing a noticeable decline in military action. We're seeing children killed still every day since Saturday, in those statements where I am, there's been heavy, heavy military activity today, all day today in the north, it's unchanged. Trying to get aid across, you know, unicef, we're lucky. We don't just do supply driven aid. We do education beyond a, we do trauma, we do a lot of cash assistance. It's a game changer. But we've also got a society where one third of all women are giving birth, you know, to premature or underweight babies. And we've tried five times now to get incubators from hospitals in the north that have been evacuated to other areas. Five times. Israeli officials have denied that. Five times. I'm looking at babies down here in the south where there's three premature babies on a bed just trying to get incubators. And they've been denied coming into the Gaza Strip since March 2024. So, you know, people need to see that change. But, yeah, they're holding onto hope, Bjarne. It's all they've got.

[Michelle Martin]

Yeah.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And after especially pressure from the west after that blockade, Israel started allowing more supplies to come in. But obviously this 20 point plan would see an end to the fighting and a flood of humanitarian aid rushed through. In the meantime, we still talk about how chaotic things are on the ground without much order. I know that a UNICEF aid truck was robbed at gunpoint in Gaza City about two weeks ago. Just talk to us about the difficulty again with Hamas. Still, I would imagine the ruling authority there as weakened as they are and no one to replace them. How difficult it is for aid organizations like yours to bring in whatever you can without the concern of being injured, hurt and robbed yourself.

[James Elder]

It's a very dangerous place to work. You've got multiple challenges here, Bianna. You've got more UN workers have been killed here by Israeli bombardments than any war since World War II. You've got a consistent obstruction of aid coming into the Gaza Strip. So even when we get aid in, you know the damage is being done, you don't now just suddenly turn around. You've got such a level of malnourished mums and malnourished babies, so an immense amount has to be done. And then, yes to your question, when we get aid in instead of being allowed multiple routes, because there is. When you've got economics of scarcity, such deprivation, you get looting. During the ceasefire, when aid was allowed to flow and we had 400 distribution points, there was no black market because there was food and medicines and hygiene kits and soap in the market. Without that, when we're only allowed one route, it's like the system's being created for looting and so on. And I don't know, we don't quite know who controls. Certainly there's been, you know, there's been an effort almost to create chaos here. So no one's quite sure who is in control, but certainly, certainly beyond, our brave colleagues, day in, day out, are trying to get aid across the Gaza Strip. And we know what works because we saw it in the ceasefire, give us multiple entry points, four or five across Israel, allow aid to flow, and then when we're in abide by international humanitarian law, let Israel facilitate us on multiple routes. That's what we do. That's when we change the game, and that's when we see all the indicators. You want, as humanitarians, you know, malnutrition to go down, access to water to go up. Ceasefire, it's the game. As we heard from your last guest, Amir, you know, during ceasefires, we've had more than 150 hostages go home, end that abhorrence, go back to their loved ones. I can't imagine that moment under military means, it's been less than 10. So ceasefires speak to children, you know, going to bed at night, not being bombed and getting nutritious food and hostages going home. It's not actually as complicated as leaders make out.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. And everyone, I think, can agree that once this is all over, that new leadership, not Hamas, will hopefully be there helping to govern the days and weeks ahead, as the road to rebuilding is going to take a long, long time. James Elder, thank you so much. Really appreciate the time. Well, if the fighting ends, where do we go from here? The trauma and violence of October 7th and the overwhelming force of Israel's response, including extensive allegations of war crimes, makes it hard to see any light amid the darkness. One person who is urging us not to abandon our humanity is Palestinian peace activist Aziz Abousrah. And Aziz joins me again from the program. Aziz, I remember our conversation as if it were yesterday. It was, in fact, a little over a year ago, the last time you and I spoke alongside your friend from Israel, Mao Zinon. It was a very emotional and passionate conversation. And yet here we are, still awaiting for this terrible war and the trauma after October 7th to finally begin to end, where people can truly heal. And you're an important voice to hear from because you've said you. You first learned the meaning of revenge after your brother was killed during the first intifada, shot by Israeli soldiers. And you spent years then wanting to hurt back. And then you changed, and you've been sending a very different message. And for those that didn't have the opportunity to hear that message from you last year when we spoke, it's now two years since October 7th. Can you share that message with our viewers today?

[Aziz Abu Sara]

Thank you, Bianna. And you are right. My brother was killed when I was 10 years old. He was actually tortured in an Israeli prison. And so I grew up very angry, very bitter. And as you can imagine a 10 year old seeing his brother killed. The only thought I even had in my mind was revenge. But I realized When I was 18 years old, it took me eight years to come to the conclusion that every time I chose vengeance, I was being a slave to the person who killed my brother. And I wanted to be free from that person, that what I do is not a reaction to what they did, but rather it's what I want to do. Rather, it's up to me to change and shape the future and not be doomed and controlled by the actions of those who killed my brother. And so since then, that has been my work, is trying to spread that message and trying to make sure that justice, equality, dignity, peace are the values that we're trying to normalize in Palestine and in Israel. And working with Palestinians and Israelis. Exactly, for those values, including with Mausinon, who I talked with last year, and your show where the two of us, his parents were killed on October 7th. And the two of us have come together to say, look at us, we are two people who've lost our loved ones. And we understand that there is no future with bombs and there's no future with killing and there's no future with hurting one another. And unfortunately, since last year, what we have seen is just worse than we could even imagine. And so, I mean, I was listening to the interview you had earlier, and it breaks my heart as I have so many friends in Gaza who have lost their entire family, so many friends who have no homes to go back to. And this is a reality we live in today that doesn't create a more peaceful tomorrow.

[Bianna Golodryga]

You said with Mos when you were on with him last year. And again, two men who have both suffered tremendous loss, you losing your brother Mose losing his parents on October 7 and standing together, choosing reconciliation over revenge. And you said to me then, we must not wait for the war to end to try to build peace. And I know you said that that journey to follow through on those powerful words has been even more difficult over this past year. But I'd like to think that you are still on that path. And if so, if so, tell our viewers what continues to give you strength and humanity today.

[Aziz Abu Sara]

Look, war is the absence of peace. War is the absence of justice. And we understand that the only way to change reality is by creating justice and creating peace. And actually, both in the Quran and in the Bible, the Torah, it talks about pursuing justice and peace. These are two main elements that we must do. And we can't leave those things to politicians because as we all know, if we leave it only up to politicians, we will not have peace and justice. So it must be us, the people also speaking up, going out in the streets and meeting with each other, working together and making sure that our communities, our peoples are pressuring our politicians, making sure that our investments, that our actions, that our policies are ones that create peace. We cannot invest in war and expect peace. Martin Luther King Jr. Said wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrow. And I think that's exactly what gives me hope, is that we coming together. We often Maoz and I say hope is an action. And by coming together, by working together, by believing in a better tomorrow and by doing everything we can ourselves, that's how you create hope. You don't do it by doom scrolling kind of in your home and Instagram and seeing a lot just of horrible things and do nothing about it. By going out, by working together, that's how we make change and that's how we get hope.

[Bianna Golodryga]

You and Mose, and we just showed videos of you meeting with Pope Francis, traveling the world, spreading this message. You said to me at the time, our politicians have lost their imagination so quickly. I'd like to get an honest assessment from you on how you view this 20 point piece of plan that is currently being negotiated. It seems to be the last best hope for a cease fire right now and the return of the hostages. It calls for a phased cease fire and a new joint authority in Gaza. Your view on this proposal.

[Aziz Abu Sara]

Anything that can stop the killing is something I welcome. Look, most Palestinians I know, most even international lawyers and so on, I know look at what's happening and describe it as a genocide, it's horrific. And so anything that can bring peace, that can get people out of captivity, that can bring quiet, that is good. However, the 20 piece plan does not fully solve the problem. It is a band aid, it is good for a ceasefire. And the problem that we've had so far with former agreements and prior agreements is everyone tries to do this band aid. Oh, let's just stop the issue right now, fix the problem right now, but not really deal with the road issues and not really have a lasting just peace between Israelis and Palestinians. And as long as we continue to just do half, really a more ceasefire agreement, we will end up where we are today, unfortunately in 5 and 10, 20 years. Look, I've lost my brother, but I've lost many other people also in my family and friends and like Mahoz and like Yonata and other friends of mine who've lost family members. This happens because we continue to push the ball and say we can't right now reach a full agreement. So let's push it to the next generation. And I say it's criminal. It's a criminal of us to say let's push it to the next generation. I don't want my nieces and nephews and Maoza's children have to deal with our failures.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Too many generations have suffered, and the focus now should be on ending this war and bringing those hostages home and trying to get some semblance of peace to the region. Aziza Bucera, thank you so much for joining us.

[Aziz Abu Sara]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Wish Mose could be here to give you a hug like you gave us that beautiful hug last time. We'll wait for it.

[Aziz Abu Sara]

I was with him last week and I'll be with him again next week.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Give him our best and we'll be right back after this short break.

[Taylor Harris]

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[Bianna Golodryga]

And now the recent announcement by President Trump and his health secretary on autism places harmful burdens on parents and children with the disorder. Our next guest says Trump and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Claimed without scientific evidence, a link between autism and Tylenol used during pregnancy. Author Taylor Harris joins Michelle Martin to discuss.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Bianna. Taylor Harris, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Taylor Harris]

Of course. Thanks so much for having me, Michelle.

[Michelle Martin]

So you're a writer, You're a mom and a wife. I think you've been in all these literary magazines, but I think many people will know you from your memoir, this Boy We Made, where you kind of chronicle you are sort of a search to understand your son's medical condition while also kind of reflecting on how this all plays out with race, with class, with motherhood and so forth. For people who aren't familiar with your story, could we just start with start wherever you started? What is it that caused you to understand that there was something about your boy that you didn't understand that is so hard?

[Taylor Harris]

I would say that the book starts with this morning that I'll never forget. And it was April Fool. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I wish this were a joke, but my son Christopher, whom we call tops in the book and in real life, he just woke up and he's sort of just staring. He doesn't say anything. He's almost 2 years old and he just doesn't look like himself. And you just have that moment. I think as a parent, as those who mother of. Wait, am I overreacting? Right? You're always sort of second guessing yourself. Should I call the doctor? So I do, and we make an appointment. Long story short, we find out that his blood glucose level was like 27. And, you know, a low normal for you and I might be something like 70 or 80. So then we rushed them to the hospital, they keep them overnight, they send out labs to the Mayo Clinic. And what we expected was to hear something like, oh, okay, no big deal. You can manage this with a snack at bedtime. He'll outgrow it. Those labs, you know, they were fine. Although we get those labs back and it's just like, no, there are actually these other levels that are way off. And so, you know, the picture I get in my head of just sort of is like the magician, like, pulling the scarves out of the hat. And it just sort of felt like every new test would be like, it's not that. But this isn't completely within the realm of typical and I'm okay sort of spoiling my own book. And that we don't find sort of like a neat ending. I think, you know, as writers, you sort of want to know, is this the right, you know, is this the right ending? Is the essay over? But we don't get sort of that one label that I set out to look for that I thought would give me all the answers.

[Michelle Martin]

So, Taylor, how many kids do you have and how old are they?

[Taylor Harris]

I have three and they are 14, 13, and nine.

[Michelle Martin]

Knowing what you know now, particularly about autism, because two of your kids have autism diagnoses, is that the way it is for a lot of people or is it different now since your kids are a little older now?

[Taylor Harris]

I spent a lot of time thinking, okay, Michelle, why did I feel like I could find the one answer? What was it about my upbringing? I was raised in the 80s, Midwestern girl. And there was something about, I think, how I interpreted the world, which was like, you get sick. I got a lot of strep throat. And it was sort of like, you get sick, you go to doct doctor, gives you pink liquid, you feel better. And I can even say, even as I grew up, got a little older, started having panic attacks, had a difficult time. Even though I was like an A plus student, class president, it was then, okay. My parents were excellent, and they were like, we're going to take you. You're going to get therapy, you're going to get medication, you're going to do cognitive behavioral therapy. And it still felt to me like, even though I knew I'd be living with anxiety, that there was sort of an. An answer or a way to get at it or to cope. I think some of that is true now, but autism, for me has been so different because of how it can look in kids like mine and in myself. Right. And so you have kids who are African American. They are high masking. They're going to come into your office. They're. I mean, Michelle, if they came to you right now, my daughter, she's a huge fan. She's like, oh, my gosh, tell her I love. And, you know, she's just like this gorgeous kid. She's athletic. Right. And so what is actually harder for me with raising autistic kids has been getting others to believe that it's actually really hard sometimes with what they don't see. So I took my daughter to one appointment, and I wasn't asking this doctor for a diagnosis. I was saying, oh, and you should know, sort of, you know, we got this diagnosis of autism recently. And he looked at her and he said, no, no, no, you're not autistic. If you're autistic, you wouldn't be able to ask for a glass of water. And I just see her whole face. You know, she just. Her face just. She just shuts down and she's thinking, like, I don't know what to make of this.

[Michelle Martin]

So that's part of the problem here, is that autism presents in a wide variety of ways. And here's a medical professional who doesn't seem to know that. Right, right.

[Taylor Harris]

There is so much more we need to know. People like me are drawn to social media, for instance, because some of the latest information about what autism can look like is often like anecdotal. Right. It's often someone saying, like, oh, my gosh, all my life I felt like something was off. And here now I have this diagnosis, and now I have understanding, and now I can start to figure out how to live in the world.

[Michelle Martin]

Can you just to step back for a second and just as best as you can, how would you describe what autism is?

[Taylor Harris]

Yes, I would say definitely not a disease. I think that it is helpful to look at something like the DSM 5. Right. Because it's often used to diagnose. And so something like a neurodevelopmental condition. Other people might say it's a neurotype. If you read Steve Silverman's book, part of it is sort of this natural evolution of. Of the human mind and brain. And so I think what has been difficult lately is I'm okay with a few ways of describing it. Right. And we'll continue to learn more and more, but I think seeing it as sort of like a burden on society, this thing that is an epidemic, which makes you think disease, which needs to be eradicated, like that is completely different. There are a thousand genes marked for autism. And so I just want to be very careful that this can all fall under genetics in some ways. But I see it very differently than the way we hear the administration talking about it.

[Michelle Martin]

So this administration has characterized autism in some very dire ways. The health secretary has described it as, you know, something that basically is devastating to people, that people who live with autism will never go on a date or never have a job. I wanted to ask, first of all, how did you react to that when you heard that.

[Taylor Harris]

That there are two reactions. One is, you know, it's almost laughable. It's sort of a spectacle. But then I have to take it somewhat seriously, especially because this is about someone who has ideas that are not accurate, but also has power. And so this is where I kind of go back and forth between what do I spend my time on. So I did want to talk to my kids about it. Obviously, I don't. I don't think it's true. I think that there are people, autistic people, who have sort of higher support needs maybe than I do or my kids do. We often talk about autism as a spectrum, and I think people think it means you're, like, more or less autistic. I sort of love the idea of it being more of, like, a constellation because there are all these different parts of it, and some. We all have different sort of strengths or challenges with it. And so it's not necessarily like, oh, my kids and I live over here, and those people are way over here. Now, there's a way in which I could appreciate RFK Jr. If I felt like, you know what, maybe he went on, like, one of those listening tours, and he talked to parents of kids with high support needs. And what he's trying to do is say, hey, like, let's not forget about these families. Let's put some funding into getting them the care that they need. But given that we're looking at Medicaid cuts and things like that, it just doesn't jive. The math isn't mathing. And so then what am I forced to say is like, oh, what's at stake for me and what's at stake for him? And RFK Jr has been talking about vaccines causing autism and things like that for 20 years. And so is there a place to talk about how hard it can be to be autistic in this world? Absolutely. Like, I will have that conversation all day if I don't. I don't think at all that that is what's happening. And so I talk to my kids about it because I don't want them hearing clips and second guessing who they are. And you know what their response was? Elliot is my oldest and she actually prayed on the way to school. They go to a school with a lot of neurodivergent kids. And she actually prayed like, lord, if someone who is autistic heard those words from rfk, I pray that they don't believe them, that they don't feel bad about themselves.

[Michelle Martin]

And what about people with high support needs? What is it that. Because that seems to be what RFK Jr. Was talking about. How does that tend to present?

[Taylor Harris]

Yeah, I don't want to speak too much just because my kids are high masking. So you can imagine, especially as a black mom, I worry about my kids being out there and being seen a certain way. That's where, again, coming back to RFK's words, I think that that is hard. So I won't speak for the high support needs, but I can say that my guess is the through line between us would be something like exhaustion, caretaking beyond sort of what you feel capable of, especially if you're like me and you have your own limits or feeling like there's no book on this. Like, I read the baby books, I read this, I read how to raise a healthy teen. Like how to have screen time limits. All of those things shift with neurodivergent kids and there's so much more for us to learn. And so I think that that's why it's hard like that. I feel like we're going to take resources from what could be really helpful to give parents a break if they need it, to get those kids access to education or language, whatever it is. And it's just not. I don't think we're moving in the right direction there.

[Michelle Martin]

So the president announced label changes, discouraging Tylenol, the Main ingredient being acetaminophen, discouraging Tylenol use in pregnancies, suggesting a link to autism, and said, you know, people shouldn't use Tylenol. They should tough it out, you know, during pregnancy. How did you hear that?

[Taylor Harris]

Part of it felt very much like watching a performance, watching a spectacle. Whatever their motive is and what they're going to do, it's going to affect people and it's possibly going to cost lives. And so a lot of people have been listening to that Ezra Klein Tanasi Coates podcast recently. And I think what comes to the forefront for me from that is this question of, like. Like, okay, can we compromise with people who are on a different side than us? And maybe, but how far are we willing to move? And I think that, you know, the question Ta Nehisi is often asking is, like, who's bearing the brunt of this? So if. If Taylor Harris shows up and says, you know, something like, well, I don't actually think Tylenol causes autism. The science doesn't really bear that out. But I support President Trump because at least autism is back in the spotlight. I have spent a lot of time thinking, can I sort of jump on that part of the very back of the wagon? And I don't think I can. I don't think I can because I don't think that it's helpful. I don't think it's sort of like, as long as autism is in the news, you know, I can sign on to that.

[Michelle Martin]

And I just want to be clear, for people who may have just joined our conversation, there is no causal link that has been demonstrated between acetaminophen and autism. So that's clear. There are studies that suggest that something could be considered, but there is no causal link. I want to be very clear about that. And I also want to be very clear that the currently accepted medical advice is that high fevers in pregnant women are known to be dangerous. There's one thing I wanted to ask you about. The CDC reported in 2023 that for. For the first time, black, Latino, Asian, and American Indian children are being diagnosed with autism at higher rates than white children. And researchers suggest that could reflect improved screening. It could reflect improved awareness in historically underserved communities. But I don't know. Do you have a theory about that?

[Taylor Harris]

You know, I will never say that I am the one to ask when they're there. People have done more research, but I can tell you how difficult it has been to get diagnoses for my kids, kids and myself. I'M diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder, which we know from the book, but also like autistic and adhd, which is now a term, you know, some of us say, ah, dhd. People say some terrible things online about, like autism being a trend, you know, as though, as though someone like me walks into the doctor and is like, I won't leave until you diagnose me with autism so that I can get what benefits. Part of what is also so important for me about my kids knowing, and I'm guessing, you know, other people of color knowing, is that if you are high masking autistic, your, you know, the rate of suicide and suicidal ideation is, it's like exponentially higher than the general population. And I have some ideas as to why, but this is why, you know, for some people, labels don't matter. I won't argue with you on that. This is one of the reasons why for my family, I think it matters to be able to, you know, have some understanding of maybe why your brain works the way it does or why, you know, quote unquote, simple things that other people seem to do so easily are hard for you.

[Michelle Martin]

Taylor Harris, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Taylor Harris]

Thank you, Michelle.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And that is it for us for now. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye. From New York.

[Taylor Harris]

Foreign.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward. And on season seven of Mind of a Monster, we're bringing you the story of Kristen Gilbert.

[Taylor Harris]

We think that Kristen Gilbert is the most prolific mass murderer on the east.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Coast, the very person responsible for keeping you alive. Your nurse is secretly killing you.

[Taylor Harris]

She said to the nurse manager, if.

[Bianna Golodryga]

This guy dies, can I go home? Listen to Mind of a Monster, the killer nurse. Wherever you get your podcasts.