Nada Bashir (3:26)

Well, Christian we haven't had an official response just yet from the Lebanese government, but as you mentioned, the Lebanese government, its president have been pushing for peace negotiations and talks for some time now, for weeks since the war began. In fact, we have seen several moves by the Lebanese government to try to push the situation towards diplomacy. The Lebanese president said that the government had written to the United nations outlawing the military wing of Hezbollah. And of course, we have also heard just in the last day from the Lebanese government saying that they have called on their security forces to rid the capital, Beirut of non state arms. So clearly a push to target Hezbollah forces that are perhaps operating in the capital. There is a real hope here across the country that diplomacy may lead to a cessation of facilities may provide some respite for a country that has of course seen deadly conflict once again for over a month now. As you mentioned, the staggering figures following yesterday's large widespread attack by the Israeli military. Of course the Israeli military says it was targeting Hezbollah command and military targets. But we have seen on the ground for ourselves the civilian impact of this widespread attack. And of course, fresh warnings today of a broadening of that evacuation order in southern Beirut has raised concerns that negotiations might not necessarily mean an end to airstrikes here in Lebanon. Take a look at the impact that we have seen firsthand on the ground. Homes destroyed, the air filled with smoke. The site of yet another deadly attack. This is the aftermath of an enormous Israeli military strike here in Beirut. This is one of the more than 100 targets, according to the Israeli military, that they believe to be Hezbollah targets struck today. But you can see behind me, these appear to be residential buildings, apams. This is a very busy area full of shops and a busy roadway. There would have been many people at this site and around the area at the time of of the blast. And now emergency services are working to dig through the rubble for victims. The Lebanese Health Ministry says hundreds have been killed and wounded, adding to the more than 1,500 people the ministry said Tuesday have been killed in Lebanon over

Yuli Novak (5:50)

the course of this week.

Nada Bashir (5:53)

Hopes that the ceasefire between the us, Israel and Iran would extend to Lebanon were quickly dashed just hours after it came into effect.

Lebanese Civilian (6:04)

We were sitting, drinking coffee like normal, and then we heard a very loud noise. Three blasts at the same time. And then we saw the smoke, but we couldn't tell where it was coming from. What kind of life is this? We don't know what will happen in the next hour. The last thing we could imagine is this kind of attack occurring in the center of Beirut.

Nada Bashir (6:27)

In the neighborhood of Talas Al Khayyat. First responders attempt to rescue survivors after a section of a residential building was completely levelled. Both the US and Israel have claimed Lebanon was never part of the ceasefire agreement, despite claims to the contrary from Pakistan's prime minister, who helped broker the deal. Now fears of a further escalation, including a possible retaliation from Hezbollah ally Iran, has left many fearful over what now lies ahead for the people of Lebanon. And of course, while we are still waiting to hear an official statement from the Lebanese government, we are also waiting to hear any response from Hezbollah and whether they may continue to retaliate.

Christiane Amanpour (7:12)

You know, Neda, it was really, for me, nada, quite extraordinary when this started, to hear so many Lebanese raising their head above the parapet and just saying enough to Hezbollah that they have brought this down on Lebanon's head for way too long. And also enough of this permanent war by Israel. What are you hearing from people, you know, who are they blaming for this? What's, what's just happened to them just now?

Nada Bashir (7:42)

Well, Christian, we certainly are hearing a sense of division amongst the Lebanese people, people, but overwhelmingly the response is that people want an end to this war, a peaceful end to this war. There are, of course, many who criticize Hezbollah for dragging Lebanon back into a conflict with Israel. Many have accused Hezbollah of prioritizing the military goals of the Iranian regime and the IRGC over the security of Lebanon and the Lebanese people. But there are of course, others in the country who support Port Hezbollah who have argued and have said to us that they believe Hezbollah is the only force in Lebanon defending the country's southern borders, defending the country from what has been ongoing Israeli attacks on southern Lebanon, despite the apparent ceasefire that was in place. And of course, both sides have clearly been in violation of that cease fire that was brokered in November 2024. But there are many who are critical of the Lebanese government, the Lebanese army, for not, in their view, being strong enough to prevent any further Israeli attacks. And you can really feel that division when we've been speaking to people on the ground. And of course, the humanitarian impact has left many in this country very desperate for an end to all conflict in this country. We're not just talking about more than 1500 now killed, but also more than a million people, some 20% of the country's entire population now displaced. And there are fears, there aren't any clear signs of a long standing off ramp.

Christiane Amanpour (9:10)

Yeah. And as you say, and as you point out so well, it is always the ordinary people who suffer the most, whether it's in Lebanon or indeed in Iran, where the future remains uncertain for ordinary civilians. Amid the bombs that fall and have been falling over the past six weeks, the regime has continued to crack down, arresting pro democracy activists and alarming many who want their freedoms. Among them is Nasreen Sotoudeh, a famed human rights lawyer who's been a longtime thorn in the regime's side. She was arrested last week while all alone at her home in Tehran. Her family fears for her health and her safety. And in an exclusive message, Nasrin's daughter Mehravir Khandan told us they don't know where she's being held.

Mehravir Khandan (9:57)

I think this is especially concerning because she suffers from heart disease and because of that she shouldn't be be under any kind of pressure and stress. Also from last year, last summer when Israel attacked Ebim Prison, we know that the hospital of this prison was destroyed and it doesn't function anymore. So in case of emergency, prisoners don't have access to proper medical care. I also wanted to take a moment here to remind everyone that my father has been also imprisoned since December 2024 for defending women's rights in Iran. And I wanted to say that this is the first time that I feel this scared and this desperate because I think the war added so many layers to the situation that we are in right now. Because I think in one hand there was always this risk that the U.S. israel attacked prisons again. And on the other hand, I do believe that this war helped the regime so much to distract minds from what's going on inside of Iran and overshadowed human rights news and human rights activists news inside of the country. So I hope that with this ceasefire now we can focus more on what's going on inside of Iran and we can hope probably for a real change from the people that comes from the people inside of the Iran.

Christiane Amanpour (11:52)

So Nasserin Sohudeh's daughter, 25 year old Mehravi Khandan. Let's bring in now Washington Post journalist Jason Rezaian, who knows the inside of an Iranian prison all too well. He was held on false charges by the regime back in 2014 for over 500 days. And he's joining us now from Washington. Jason, welcome back. Program. Just on a personal level, Mehravice said a few things. One, you know, fear for her mother's safety and her health. They don't know where she is. And also for the, for what might have been done to the human rights campaign of the Iranian people over these last six weeks. So let's take Your reaction to her message?

Jason Rezaian (12:38)

Well, I think Christiane, Ms. Khandan is 100% on point, as you and I both know. Nasserin Sioux. Today, her mother, along with Nargis Mohammadi, the Nobel Prize laureate, have both been in and out of prison over more than a decade of time. And I think this war, in a lot of ways, was sold to the public as a war of liberation to support Iranian aspirations for a democratic future, for human rights. In the wake of a massacre of thousands, potentially tens of thousands of Iranian protesters back in January, what we're seeing, though, unfortunately, more repression by the regime, a ramping up of executions, something that has never slowed down in the 47 years of the Islamic Republic. Calls from the judiciary to expedite trials and execute collaborators, supposed collaborators, collaborators, protesters. So I think the reality is this sets back the clock for freedom in Iran more than moves it forward.

Christiane Amanpour (13:52)

Well, let's try to discuss that, because, as you know, there's a very visceral argument about that. Many, certainly in the diaspora and even from inside, have been calling for this bombing, believing that this was, as they said, their last chance to topple a regime that has been so ruthless against them. Here's what Trump said. This is what he said about this. This is before the ceasefire, while the war was still on. Just take a listen.

Donald Trump (14:20)

They would be willing to suffer that in order to have freedom. The Iranians have. We've had numerous intercepts. Please keep bombing. Bombs that are dropping near their homes are. Please keep bombing. Do it. And these are people that are living where the bombs are exploding. And when we leave and we're not hitting those areas, they're saying, please come back, come back, come back.

Christiane Amanpour (14:47)

So there's quite a lot of truth to that, because even today in not intercepts, but in voice messages and text messages, some Iranians have been saying, we've been betrayed again, because we thought they were going to keep bombing until the regime fell. What are you hearing? And let's discuss this really visceral divide over bombing or not to bomb.

Jason Rezaian (15:12)

Christian, the reality is it's a country of 92 million people, one that you know very well and that I know well. There are a range of desires and aspirations. I think that the calls for continued bombing are real and that they represent a portion of the population. But what I've been hearing from people, especially over the last two, three weeks, is that, you know, the potential to target civilian infrastructure, historical sites, hospitals, universities, schools, is kind of a red line for people, the power infrastructure, because once you decimate those things, it's very difficult to bring them back. It's not going to take a month or two to rebuild this country. It's going to take many years. And I think the calls for continued bombing are an indication of the desperation that people feel and one that they felt in growing ways over a period of decades. Certainly more and more in the last five or six years as we've seen the pace of and size of protests increase after the death of Mahsa Amini in custody in 2022. You know, the biggest protest in the most numerous number of cities and villages across the country. It's not something that we can deny or ignore. People want change in Iran. It's just whether or not that change can be brought about by bombs, I don't think that hard power alone can do it.

Christiane Amanpour (16:55)

Okay, so this. Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but this is the heart of the matter. Because once the bombs fall silent, the reality exists, as you said, that the majority of the people, the vast majority, want an end to this regime and they want their freedom. And who knows, they might, you know, be able to go out into the streets and protest again. But this is what you know, Ray Takia and Suzanne Maloney, two very well known Washington based Iran experts, have advised previous US Administrations. I talked to them yesterday and Ray told me the Iranian people are in a losing situation, not, you know, trapped between cruelty of their government and the apathy of the international community. And as Ray said to me, their future is going to be only in their hands. How do you see it unfolding?

Jason Rezaian (17:43)

I think that's right, but I think that there are ways that we can help. And one of the ways that Iranians have been asking for help is to be brought back online. You can't organize if you can't communicate with one another. For over 40 days, there's been a near total blackout of the Internet in that country going back to 2009 and the green Movement. The regime has always used Internet shutdowns to slow people's ability to organize, to communicate with one another, to communicate with the outside world, to share images of what's happening inside the country. And every single time, Christian, the United States of America has promised that we won't let that happen again. We will do whatever it takes to keep these people online. Every single time we've failed. And this time around, as we drop bombs on them, we haven't even been able to get them up and running on the Internet. And there are ways to do it, whether it's via Starlink or Direct to sell Internet access.

Christiane Amanpour (18:37)

These are things that why haven't they done it? They talk a good game. Why haven't they done it?

Jason Rezaian (18:43)

I think, and this is an unfortunate position to take, but I think that they don't care. And I think that that's where we are right now. And the words of the president, the vice president, Secretary of Defense, indicate sort of a cold, calculated approach to this, that they just want their strategic ends to be met. And at this point, it's to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, which was opened before the bombing started. So, you know, I think it's just a continuation of a failed policy and one that is having catastrophic results right now. Would I like to see a result in a free Iran and a Democratic one? 100%. Do I think that that's likely with the leadership that we currently have and the apathy that you and others have spoken, spoken about, I think it's a long shot.

Christiane Amanpour (19:33)

You know, I was there also in 2009. In fact, that's after covering those protests and basically running in the streets with the protesters. They kicked me out and I haven't been back. But I remember because I just saw, you know, some images, you know, certainly this one woman in English said we hate Ahmadinejad. The Iranian people hate Ahmadinejad. He was the president, very hardline president at the time. But now, you know, the US Is even talking about a sort of a, I don't know, I don't want to put words in their mouth, but a regime that's changed, that's more amenable to talk, you know, about all these people has it.

Jason Rezaian (20:11)

It's the same people. It's the same people, Cristian, you know, with the killing of every Iranian official that we've heard about in recent weeks, whether it was the supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, who or the head of the National Security Council or Ali Larajani, the longtime nuclear negotiator and speaker of Parliament. What kept coming to my mind is how many more name brand representatives of this regime are still alive, still in their positions, still ruling over that country in a very repressive way. This is not a sort of one and done. You take one person out and it and the story is over. The same regime is in place, the same ideology is in place. The same people are in control of the levers of power. And to uproot them is going to take a lot more than just bombing over a several week period. And I fear that the humanitarian toll of that is going to be more than anybody is even contemplating at this point. And that leads me to the conclusion that we might end up making some kind of arrangement with this regime, as we've seen from this wobbly ceasefire. And if we did, if we made a more long term one, that would be essentially the biggest betrayal of the Iranian people yet.

Christiane Amanpour (21:37)

Meantime, as we've talked about, of course, in light of Nasserin Sotoudeh and the rearresting and the executions and those who are in prison, and I just want to share a moment because it is 10 years since you over 10 years since you were released. 10 years, you know, over 10 years since you were taken. And I remember back then speaking to your mother, Mary Rezaian here in London, and she addressed these comments speaking in Farsi, not her own native language, to then Ayatollah, you know, Khamenei, the supreme leader.

Tom Hanks (22:11)

Take a listen, Jason.

Nada Bashir (22:14)

Natenha pesare Azizamanhast beli pesare Iranam hast kudum madari mitune gabul kone KE pesaresh Zandani Bashe pesara Munra Azad Khan it's

Christiane Amanpour (22:36)

really amazing to listen to. And you can imagine the hundreds of parents in Iran saying the same thing right now. Did you know then that she was making these impassioned appeals for your release?

Jason Rezaian (22:49)

I didn't know until months later into my imprisonment, she was able to visit me starting about a year into the imprisonment for the last several months. And when I came back to report out my story, my, my takeaway is that a family, my mother, my brother, of course, my wife, who is a journalist and was arrested with me and released on house arrest and continued to advocate for me at great risk to herself. The support starts with them. And it makes me think so much of the six Americans who are wrongfully detained in Iran right now and others like Ahmad Rezajal Ali, an Iranian Swedish doctor who's been on death row in even prison for over nine years. We need to do more for these people. And you know, that moment in 2014 and 15 when my family was advocating for me was one when there was more of a diplomatic opening between the US And Iran. But I hope that political prisoners and hostages who are being held are not forgotten about and that every effort is made to bring them home. Yeah.

Christiane Amanpour (24:01)

Well, you, we, we all try to raise our voices for that. Jason Roselyn, thank you so much indeed. And stay with CNN because we'll be right back after the break.

Amazon Narrator (24:17)

Amazon presents Jeff vs. Taco Truck Salsa. Whether it's verde roja or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea and milk. Habanero. More like habanero. Yes, save the everyday with Amazon.

Claire Duffy (24:48)

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. I don't think I need to tell anyone that life these days is expensive. Now imagine that the cost you're charged is different from the cost your neighbor pays for the exact same product. Maybe because you have different budgets or shopping habits. It's actually happening a big shift.

Christiane Amanpour (25:09)

Is everyone seeing the same price tag

Claire Duffy (25:11)

in the store to now everyone's seeing prices on their private screens and also

Nada Bashir (25:16)

companies having a ton of information about each of us.

Claire Duffy (25:19)

I'm talking to Grace Getty, a policy analyst at Consumer Reports. She has some tips on how to look out for automated pricing schemes and what we can all do about it. Listen to CNN's terms of service wherever you get your podcasts.

Christiane Amanpour (25:38)

With the eyes of the world trained elsewhere, Palestinians continue to face a dire reality. Both in Gaza and the occupied West coast bank, attacks by Israeli settlers have spiked in recent months and it comes amid a new law that imposes the death penalty for those convicted of acts of terrorism, quote, with the intent to negate the existence of the state of Israel. Now, for more on this, let's bring in Yuli Nowak, executive director of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, and Suhad Bishara, legal director at Adala, which is a Palestinian rights group. Welcome, both of you to the program. Can I just ask you both to tell me what you think this law means? What does that mean, a law? Let me ask you first, Yuli, a law that is, you know, meant to go into effect, you know, if they find them guilty of negating Israel's right to exist. What does it mean?

Yuli Novak (26:36)

Right? Very simply, it means that Israel is continuing, widening its practice of killing and executing Palestinians and adding another layer or formalizing this policy into its legal system. And that is very troubling because what we are facing now is what we see as another new phase of this system that is going a process of becoming more and more totalitarian, more and more deadly, more and more unrestrained in its violence against Palestinians.

Christiane Amanpour (27:17)

And let me ask you then, please, Suhad, you are an Israeli Arab or an Arab Israeli, I never quite know how to say that, but you lobby for the rights of Arabs inside Israel and the West bank, etc. Is it a two track mechanism? Is It a dual track. Is this directed just at Arabs and

Tom Hanks (27:37)

Palestinians or at everybody?

Christiane Amanpour (27:40)

What do you think the mechanism looks like?

Suhad Bishara (27:44)

Yeah, I mean definitely the death penalty law adopts very clearly a racial approach to the fundamental right to life. It establishes a clear racial separation and apartheid like legal framework. Now we have and many others written a lot about the two tiered system, legal system in the west bank, including in Jerusalem of course, and in Israel in terms of how the law is applied and the two different legal frameworks. This law is an acceleration in this sense because you have the same law in a racialized wording, in a racialized designed working in a manner that the death penalty is imposed by hanging by the way, is imposed on Palestinians and on Palestinians only. Whether we are speaking about the west bank occupied territory, including East Jerusalem, whether we are speaking about Palestinian citizens of Israel. This is why we call it. It's an apartheid like legal framework because you have the distinction in the same law and the wording of the same law. We know that Palestinians are tried in the military courts in the West. Settlers are not. Settlers are excluded from the definition of residents of the west bank to the purposes of the law. They are tried in Israel and they are exempt from the applicability of the law in Israel because of the wording that you've just mentioned that the crime needs to be committed or the conviction with the aim of negating the State of Israel. And this is explicitly intends to exclude Jewish Israelis, including settlers in this regard. And I do agree that we need to read this law in a wider context. We're speaking about a long standing policy of extrajudicial executions by Israeli security forces also in Israel, also in the occupied territories, along side with policy of impunity and almost no accountability. The impunity and even support granted by officials to crimes committed by settlers against Palestinians in the west bank, either to drive them out of their communities or to terrorize them. So it's sending a clear message not just that Palestinian lives don't matter, it goes further to add legal tools to expand the killing of Palestinians.

Christiane Amanpour (30:20)

So let me play this because the police minister, the Security Minister, Ben gvir, he's been talking about this. As you know, there have been images and videos of him popping champagne corks, celebrating essentially executing Palestinians. And I know that you suad, but I'm sure Yuli, you're also into this, leading these petitions against this law in the High Court. This is what Ben GVIR said to a right wing outlet that work has commenced to start executions already. Take a listen

N (30:55)

I want to tell you that they have already begun to order red uniforms. They're opening a death row wing. We're laying the foundation for what you call a facility because you need a facility here. It won't be tomorrow morning, it won't be two to three days. It takes a few months. But yes, we have begun work. And everyone who knows me knows this. There have been many who just talked. I do, and I do, and I do, and I do. And by the way, do you know what the prison authority is telling me? They see what has been going on since the law passed. They're telling me the terrorists aren't sleeping at night. They're worried and they should be worried. The terrorists should be worried. Blessed be God.

Christiane Amanpour (31:37)

It is quite hard for me to hear this, Yuli. I wonder what you think. It's very bloodthirsty, in fact. I mean, that's my opinion. I know that you all are trying to take it to the court. What is your reaction?

Yuli Novak (31:53)

So Adala is taking it to the court and Soad can tell you more about it. But one thing that I think we need to. You get just the point. I mean, you hear what he said and things are so clear at the moment. You know, one thing that have changed in Israel is the lack of need to hold this facade of liberal, democratic, human rights respecting country. And we see it everywhere, right? It's not only in regard to Palestinian prisoners and to the death penalty and the execution of Palestinian prisoners. The reality in the prisons today is already devastating. It is, we're talking about ongoing abuse, about Israel detention centers that have practically became a network of torture camps because close to 10,000 Palestinians are being held right now. When we're talking in these detention centers, each and every one of them are going through abuse, lack of medical treatment, starvation, and basically ongoing torture. So, and Benville is not only bragging about it, he's also getting the support of the Israeli government. And I have to say, and this is maybe one of the most tragic things for me as an Israeli to say, a large part of the Israeli Jewish society is also supporting these practices and this mentality of ongoing abuse and violence and deadly treatment of Palestinians. So the notion of dehumanization of Palestinians that characterizes, you know, that is being led by the most far right hardliners politicians Israel ever had is basically become the norm here and become normalized. And maybe it's not, it shouldn't surprise us after two years of ongoing genocide and after the violence that we see in the west bank and the fact that more than 80 prisoners Palestinians have died in Israeli prisons. And we can talk about that as well, but it is devastating.

Christiane Amanpour (34:20)

Let me just ask you before I turn back to Suhad and the court case. It was passed, as you say, By a majority, 62 members of parliament of the Knesset. Netanyahu himself voted for it, but apparently against the explicit objection of the military establishment and the National Security Council. Why do you think they told him not to? Why do they object to this law?

Yuli Novak (34:45)

Yeah, I think that we have this kind of complex situation in which Israel is now being led by a very, very clear and direct ideological sentiment, which is to basically to break apart the Palestinians, to ruin the Palestinians. Now, there are fractions within Israeli apparatus that are still trying to hold on to some, I would call it facade and fake notion of liberal values of democracy, of kind of respect to international law. But I call it a facade because again, a nation, a country, a state that conducted genocide, a state that holds thousands of people under conditions of torture, a state that legislate this kind of legislation is very clear, none of these things. So we have some kind of elements within the system while trying, still trying to hold on and kind of to play the not entirely ideological and racist playbook. But they are very weak and we see the results on the ground. Right. So.

Christiane Amanpour (36:12)

And Yuri, you used the word genocide because that is what your organization and other human rights organizations in Israel determined is what took place in Gaza. So I want to move on, move back to Suad, because you're taking this into the court system. You've explained to me why the courts are not fair to Palestinians in general in military courts. And the Supreme Court we know, is under pressure from the Israeli government. What is your realistic expectation for what might happen to this execution law as you take it through the court to try to get it struck down?

Suhad Bishara (36:52)

Yeah, definitely. Our aim is to declare the law as unconstitutional, null and thus and void. And it's based on very good legal grounds in terms of international law and constitutional law. First, the part of the law that applies to the west bank clearly violate the fundamental principles of laws of war and occupation. Because the Israeli Parliament is not the sovereign entity and the occupied territories, under the circumstances, it has no authority to enact such laws in the West Bank. And the law in fact goes against decades of international and UN member states efforts to abolish death penalty worldwide. It is considered inhuman, violates absolute prohibition and torture, and violates democratic principle as stated by some of the EU countries. And then it contradicts Israel's obligation under international human rights law. We're speaking about nearly mandatory death penalty, which is inherent, arbitrary, violate due process principles. And we all know that military courts in the west bank lack fundamental guarantees for any kind of fair trial. In this regard, the mere fact that we're speaking about mandatory or nearly mandatory death penalty is inherently arbitrary by itself and by many jurisdictions. It was declared as unconstitutional, including

Christiane Amanpour (38:40)

the

Suhad Bishara (38:40)

US and basically a lot of legislatures spoke about the fact that it will or they expect that it will deter violence or future crimes in this regard. However, it should be noted that all along the legislation process, no such evidence were even discussed or brought before the committee or the Knesset members that discuss it. And in fact, we bring with our petition expert opinion saying exactly the opposite. Not that only there is no evidence. A lot of research, scientific research, legal research, show, in fact, the opposite. So the petition is fell founded and I hope that this will result in declaring it null and void. Again. There are many problematic aspects. It's racially designed. We are speaking about a death penalty that is inherently unconstitutional and it has many other flaws in the law itself in terms of due process and much more. And I'm hopeful that it will be declared null and vulnerable.

Christiane Amanpour (39:57)

All right. Well, listen, both of you, Yuli Novak, Souad Bishara, thank you very much for joining me on this important issue. Now, after venturing further into space than ever before, the Artemis II astronauts are nearly home. And we revisit our conversation with superstar actor and space fanatic Tom Hanks to hear why the moon landings meant so much to him. That's after the break.

Amazon Narrator (40:27)

Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry in the new CNN original series. Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever premieres April 11th at 9 on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.

Christiane Amanpour (40:47)

And finally, wherever you are, whoever you are, look up and we all see the same moon. The astronauts of Artemis 2 have just traveled farther beyond Earth than ever before, seeing and capturing the moon in a whole new way. The images are reminiscent of the striking apartment Apollo era photos taken over five decades ago from their shuttle. Astronaut Victor Glover told cnn all the good stuff is coming back with us, bringing NASA one step closer to establishing a lunar base. But the race is on to get there first as China seeks to outpace the United States. Now let's revisit the immersive documentary the Moonwalkers that was produced for the Lightbox Studio here in London a few years ago by none other than actor Tom Hanks and writer Christopher Reilly.

Tom Hanks (41:36)

Tom hanks, CHRIS Riley welcome to the program.

Christopher Riley (41:39)

Good to see you.

Tom Hanks (41:39)

This is a quintessentially American story. And the two of you wrote this together. What did it take to write this? What were you trying to achieve? What was it about? The moon, the story that's been told so many times.

Christopher Riley (41:52)

That's a good question. Why?

Chris Riley (41:54)

Well, yes, I mean, it's not entirely about the moon. The story is actually a story of hope, of course, it's about hope of humanity, of what we can do when we work together. Apollo really epitomizes that. It was the work of half a million people for a decade, all pulling together for one particular quest. And it was driven by curiosity, in part. And when we are curious, we discover unexpected things. And that's essentially the message we wanted to try and convey, in part, isn't it?

Christopher Riley (42:20)

You know, the interest is why and why now? And I think that if you took the headlines of 1969 and the headlines of 2023, they actually match up in quite. What's the word I'm looking for?

Tom Hanks (42:33)

Synchronicity.

Christopher Riley (42:34)

Yes. And it's not great news. It's actually quite troublesome. And it's very much sort of like defining of this era that we're in right now. And at the same time in 1968 and same time in 2023, people were going to the moon. I mean, we do make a big deal about the Artemis missions that will be going back around the moon within the next year, which is an incredible step for humankind. For myself, when I was 13, the Apollo missions were this example of. It was an evolutionary place in the consciousness of humankind. Because the only reason to go to the moon was because we're human beings and we desire to figure out what is on the other side of the hill. And that affected me very much then. And if we're human beings, do we not have to remain curious and do we not have to strive in order to see what is on the other side of. Of that though?

Tom Hanks (43:24)

And do we not have to be stirred? Because you say correctly that this unbelievable 360 experience puts you in the moment. And the opening words we've heard and you have the opening narration.

Christopher Riley (43:38)

Every human being who ever lived on the planet Earth looked up at the moon and it's given us our seasons, it's given us our day, the length of our month, and we've been moved by it, you know, spiritually.

Tom Hanks (43:50)

How did you come up with, I mean, what's really curiosity, human, you know, connection to your opening statement? How did, how did that come out

Christopher Riley (44:01)

if we are going to become interplanetary beings from Star Trek and all of the great wonderings of great science fiction, theoretical fiction now. And in a lot of ways we will be doing so based on what we learned as space faring beings when we went to Apollo. There's only 12 human beings that have walked on the surface of another planet, only 12 of us in the 50,000 years of human behavior. When we do it again, and we will, we will be doing it because these were the pathfinders who showed it it was possible in the first place. It's not just a matter of the technology, certainly, but it also is a question, as you yourself said, it's wherewithal, do we want to? And the answer is yes, we do. So then the how is. Well, we already have kind of like a template of how. We just have to follow it through to whatever the next chapter is going to be.

Christiane Amanpour (44:53)

Chris, I don't know whether you wrote

Tom Hanks (44:55)

the opening statement, but the idea of looking up and always seeing this moon and it is the repository of all our dreams and all our hopes. Tell me about that.

Chris Riley (45:06)

The moon is a beacon, of course, and it's something we're all familiar with in our lives. It's always up there, ever changing, you know, as well. And wherever you travel on Earth, it's different and different too. And in many ways it's pulled us off the planet. We dreamed about it, first of all, as Tom says, for centuries. We wrote about it. We invented gods up there, as Tom's words explain at the beginning. And it's tugged us off Earth because without the moon there was nowhere to reach to. Neil Armstrong, I think I recall, saw it in the same way as the islands just off the coast of China that tugged us as a species into the Pacific because if you couldn't see something to reach that wasn't over the horizon, you wouldn't have had the courage to go. And that's what the moon symbolizes for us as well.

Tom Hanks (45:48)

I think you, you saw the. When you were a kid, you watched on television and I watched on television Neil Armstrong walk on the moon. And I guess that it's inspired you ever since because you've also played, you know, Jim Lovell in Apollo 13.

Christopher Riley (46:05)

Hey, we've got a problem here. What did you do?

Christiane Amanpour (46:09)

Nothing to stir the tanks.

Christopher Riley (46:11)

Whoa.

Christiane Amanpour (46:12)

Hey.

Tom Hanks (46:16)

This is Houston.

Christiane Amanpour (46:18)

Say again, please.

Christopher Riley (46:19)

Houston, we have a problem.

Christiane Amanpour (46:22)

Has that been something that stayed with you ever since then?

Tom Hanks (46:25)

Why did you choose the Apollo 13 film?

Christopher Riley (46:28)

I was, first of all, the Apollo 13 Jim Level Fred Hayes Jack Swagger. They are Jason and the Argonauts. That is a story that is ripped right out of the great sagas of all of humankind. This is what it comes around. I sitting at home, actually it was 1968 on Apollo 8. Jim Lovell was orbiting the moon with Fred Borman and Bill Anders. And on my mother's couch I saw a live broadcast of what? Oh, the planet Earth in black and white on my television in my mom's house over Christmas vacation. Something in my feeble little brain could not quite fathom that I was watching us on Earth from an orbiting spacecraft that was around the moon, pointing a television camera back at us. And there were the only three people that were not in that photograph were the crew of Apollo 8 or the crew in that broadcast. I had some sort of cranial plate shift, some sort of like sense of out of body experience, which I thought, we are magnificent human. We are magnificent creatures. If we can make this happen and look to be 12 years old and watching that on TV and have a spiritual, artistic moment of enlightenment, that's an impactful thing. And I've carried it with me forever since. I still quite can't fathom that a guy named Jack Schmidt was walking around on the moon just like that and brought home some rocks for us to study.

Tom Hanks (47:58)

Would you ever go? I mean, obviously space travel is becoming more and more, you know, proletarian, if you like.

Christiane Amanpour (48:05)

As long as you've got billion dollars, as long as you've got a billion

Tom Hanks (48:08)

dollars and you're Elon Musk or something like that. Would you want to go?

Christopher Riley (48:12)

I mean, you'd go, right? Given the opportunity.

Chris Riley (48:15)

We did kind of go, didn't we, Tom? Do you remember when we went to Houston and Sam.

Tom Hanks (48:19)

No, no, but I mean, really, would

Christopher Riley (48:20)

you get it in the suborbital stuff that goes on then I'd say no. I think that would be a lovely roller cross. But we just talked to the Artemis folks last night and they are looking, they are hoping that private, private enterprise will build rotating space stations around the Earth so you could go up and live in space as a, what is it, proletariat for a few days or maybe a couple of weeks. That would be intriguing just to go up and come back down. I'll ride a roller coaster instead.

Chris Riley (48:46)

It's also worth remembering, I think, that in the next two years there's going to be 25 missions to the moon. I mean, that's way more than the

Christopher Riley (48:53)

worriedness between India and China and the United States and the well, that's what

Tom Hanks (48:58)

brings me to the next. You raise an interesting point because India's done a big E on the south side. China's done a big E landing on the dark side. There is a fear in the United States, at NASA, that unless even a SpaceX executive has said, unless we get our act together, whether it's Artemis or whoever next, we are going to be beaten by China, by India, by Russia, by whoever does that. Do you think that that matters?

Chris Riley (49:24)

Well, the thing about leaving Earth and exploring beyond Earth is that it has to be an endeavor that we do collectively. And so there's room up there. The moon is huge, as Tom says in the show. You know, the size combined of Brazil and the United States and Russia, there's a massive landmass. There's room there for us all to explore. We really shouldn't be restricting it to one or two countries.

Tom Hanks (49:46)

But do you believe watching what's happening in the world right now, and it is true, the space program is one of the only international cooperative events that carries on right now. But all these countries are at loggerheads.

Chris Riley (49:58)

I don't know if loggerheads is the right word when it comes to beyond Earth exploration. Yes, there's loggerheads, things going on, of course, in foreign policy and that sort of stuff, but not when you talk about leaving the Earth. I mean, the International Space Station is up there still functioning, despite troubles between the partners back on Earth. And that's because space needs that collaborative.

Christopher Riley (50:19)

You know, the Russian crews and the international crews, the Americans, they get together for karaoke night on the international space. They watch movies together up there. There's going to be no losers in going to the moon. Certainly when I was a kid, we had to beat the Communists. We had to do it before the decade was out. And if we didn't, we were going to lose. And there was no way America can lose to the Reds. That that's just a way. There's going to be no losing in whoever goes up to the moon. Now, I talked to somebody. I held one of the rocks that Neil Armstrong brought back from the moon. It was in plastic and I had gloves on. It was very safe atmosphere, so it wasn't like picking it up. And I asked the geologists at NASA, is it true that there's water on the moon? And they said, there is evidence that there is water on the moon. If there is water on the moon, it is a game changer. And let's just say it's going to be there for everybody and more power to anybody who has a wherewithal and the will and the money and the drive in order to get up there and start finding else what else? Find out finding what else we're going to discover.

Tom Hanks (51:22)

So you say more power to anybody. So that leads me to the question of Elon Musk and SpaceX and frankly Elon Musk's politically dubious qualities and his kind of hate speech on X and he's been in a lot of trouble for promoting antisemitism and this and that. So when you think of the idealism of President Kennedy who he said that we will make it to the moon for all the right reasons. Does it worry you actually that some of these people who are able to do this may not have the best interests of collaboration?

Christopher Riley (52:00)

Well that's interesting. Look, it turns out a bunch of tycoons can be really kooky people. I mean, you know Henry Ford was a vicious anti Semite. We still drive Ford trucks around a while back. If anybody is going to be as short sight as a turn going into the moon for some brand of personal gain, that's just simply wrong. It doesn't exist in that way. We kind of like the UN and people have said there shall be no conquering of territory in outer space. I don't know how anybody could go to the moon and get rich doing it. It's just going to be the opposite. It's going to cost them an awful lot of money. But I think eventually their ego might be salved by doing something other than putting the, putting a flag that has a copyrighted logo up on the moon. I think there's other ways that they can, their ego can be, can be buttressed.

Tom Hanks (52:49)

And do you also think because again we live in a very polarized world

Christiane Amanpour (52:52)

right now in the middle of a

Tom Hanks (52:53)

terrible war, several terrible wars, people have lost faith in institutions, people of completely polarized and tribalized on so many issues, even on climate. Do you think the moon is kind of maybe the last institution and space travel and the exploration that people can trust in?

Christopher Riley (53:15)

Going to the moon requires a default setting. That is not cynicism. It requires just the opposite. It actually requires faith in each other, trust in one's own abilities to be improved by working with other people. And that is it can't help but be international. I mean every one of the plaques that existed up there were unveiled all say for all mankind, for all humankind. We cannot go there unless we do it all together. And I think you know as well as anybody that yeah a faith in institutions or a belief in institutions or what's the other? Just an understanding that, yeah, all we really need is enough of us to work together and we can truly change the world. Right now, it seems as though not enough of us can work together. Let's find an example of when that happens. And I'm sorry, but going back to the moon is that very example writ large.

Tom Hanks (54:14)

Tom Hanks, Christopher Reilly, thank you both very much indeed.

Christopher Riley (54:18)

There you go. How about this?

Christiane Amanpour (54:22)

And of course, Artemis has blasted that way. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

Claire Duffy (54:48)

I'm Eva Longoria and I'm setting out to really experience France, to savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history.

Amazon Narrator (54:57)

Eva Longoria, Searching For France premieres April 12th on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.