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- [00:05]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up. Finally, free pictures many feared they'd never see. As Israel welcomes home. The hostages families reunited after a harrowing two years. And tens of thousands of Palestinians returned to the wreckage of Gaza and bodies buried beneath the rubble. I'll speak to an aid worker on the ground there. Then, as world leaders meet in Egypt to discuss a lasting peace, I speak to an Israeli and a Palestinian negotiator. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. An historic dawn of a new Middle East. That was President Donald Trump's rallying cry today addressing the Israeli Knesset before heading to Egypt to meet other world leaders and stakeholders in guaranteeing a final peace agreement for the region.
- [01:15]
B
So Israel, with our help, has won all that they can to by force of arms. You've won. I mean, you've won. Now it's time to translate these victories against terrorists on the battlefield into the ultimate prize of peace and prosperity for the entire Middle East. It's about time you were able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
- [01:39]
A
President Trump was hailed around the world for making this ceasefire happen. And today was a day of joy and emotion for Israel as the 20 remaining living hostages were returned to their families. Heartwarming scenes that mark the end of one of the darkest chapters in their country's history. In Gaza, though there is little room for jubilation, the devastation there is staggering. Now that the skies are finally free of fighter jets and drones, Palestinians have begun searching the rubble for their loved ones. It's believed thousands may lie buried beneath. Also today, 250 Palestinian prisoners were released, along with 1,700 detainees held without charge since October 7th in Tel Aviv. There have been scenes of true joy in Hostage Square and in the pictures of the hostages reunited with their families after a harrowing two year ordeal at the hands of Hamas and other militants in Gaza. One doctor told CNN that some of the hostages who were soldiers have gone through severe torture. My first guest understands the agony experienced by those receiving their loved ones. Today. Mirav Lashem Gonen's daughter Romi was held by Hamas for 471 days. She was released in and then spent nearly six months in hospital and in rehab. Merav is joining me now. Welcome to the program, Merav. Thanks for being with us.
- [03:03]
C
Thank you.
- [03:05]
A
Can I just ask you before I get into the details of your daughter and we have spoken before, where are you? Where were you when you heard that this was happening, when you heard the news that the first had been, you know, returned today. What was it like for you today?
- [03:24]
C
First, I am awakened for more than 40 hours since yesterday morning because we couldn't sleep this night. I'm not sure we can explain as the people of Israel, what it feels, what it means to us that we are receiving back 20 of our brothers and not yet sister, but 20, 20 brothers alive and another four bodies out of 48 hostages that remained in Hamas ends. And today I was in the square until late last night. And then this morning, early morning, I was at the press. I sat in one of Israel channels and seeing our, you know, it's like my kids, some of them, seeing them out of Gaza, seeing them get going out of the cars and then, you know, standing and smiling and hugging with the families that I know so very well since two years. This was not just joyful, it was like the studying of healing. That's what we are looking for.
- [04:46]
A
You know, certainly the last time we spoke, you weren't smiling and I'm sure you haven't been smiling this much for the last two years. So how is Romy doing, your daughter?
- [05:01]
C
I think today for Romy and for all the other hostages that were released in the first agreement and the second agreement, this day was exactly that, a healing day. I don't know. The survivor guilt is something which is so devastating that they needed their brothers and sisters coming back from Gaza. And Romi is working very hard to rehabilitate. It's not just rehabilitate to work against her hand, which she came back as crippled in her right hand. And she's working so hard. And she went through three surgeries. But today was a healing day. She sat together with Emily. They spent most of the time as kidnapped in Hamas hands together. And they were sitting and seeing Gali and Zivi coming back and all the rest of the hostages. A healing day, really. Healing day.
- [06:10]
A
Have you spoken or has Romy spoken to any of the other families or any of the returned hostages? I don't know whether you have access to them yet, including your friends and partners in this last two years of torture, really, who will not see their kids because they have been killed, they've died, they're coming back in body bags.
- [06:36]
C
I think the right term will be murdered because that what happened to most of the hostages, that their bodies are still held in Hamas hands. Today the families of the hostages that are already murdered were in the Knesset to talk to President Trump first to say thank you, because we needed leaders of the world, a leader like President Trump, to Help us because, you know, it's such a big issue. So today we didn't spoke as much with the families of the hostages that were murdered. But we are there for them because we need everybody to come back. This is how the Jewish tradition works. To bury the dead is something which is a must for us. And we will bring all the 24 that are still left in Hamas fence, we will bring them back home. And this is something also President Trump promised and pressed Hamas to agree.
- [07:45]
A
I was going to ask you, what was it like talking to him? What did he say to you? What did you say to him? Was he emotional? What was that moment like for you all?
- [07:56]
C
I wasn't spoken to President Trump. He was at the Knesset and I was in one of the channels because the work I do in Israel is more to my people. He was speaking to the hostages families, the murdered hostages families in the Knesset. But I did met Mr. Witkoff Saturday evening when he came to the hostage square. And I just said thank you, because they were such a big force in bringing back also my daughter Omi in January. And I think the greatness of seeing that this issue must be solved and can be solved and all the hostages that are still alive could be brought alive. This is something which big people understand, people that has vision, and I'm glad to see that this happened.
- [08:57]
A
Can I go back to your daughter? You mentioned that she's still basically working hard to, you know, get really better, especially her hand, because she had been shot. Remind us of what happened to her. She was. She was removed, kidnapped from Israel by Hamas and then she was shot. Then.
- [09:20]
C
They were escaping the Nova Festival. They escaped. They'd been, you know, escaping for more than four and a half hours from Hamas terrorists inside Israel until the car. All the car and the people that sat in the car were shot. Two of them were murdered on the spot. And Romi and another boy named Ofer Tawfati were shot pretty badly. Romi was shot in her hand and she lost a lot of blood and she lost the ability to use the hands. So she was crippled for more than one year and three months and suffered from horrifying pain. And when she came back, when we brought her back, she went through three surgeries until now to try and gain back some of the functions in her hand. It is getting better, but first, it hurts as hell. And second, it's a very hard work to try and move again. The parts that either were not working for 471 days or were damaged so badly. Thank God we have Very good doctors in Israel. And she's so determined to use her hand again. And she's working really hard.
- [10:51]
A
And as we're speaking, we're seeing you and her reunited when she did come back in January. So it was a happy, happy, happy scene, but tears, of course. So, you know, we've been talking all day about what the remaining or the returning hostages can face. You know, how do they heal physically, but also their mental health. And these hostages have been in even longer, you know, eight months or nine months longer than your daughter was in. So what would you say to them, to their families? Obviously, they have a big infrastructure around them. They're in hospitals. But how do you heal from this?
- [11:33]
C
Well, you know, it's much above my possibility to explain to them, because first they were more, nine more months. My daughter was 471 days. They were 737 days. Two years in Hamas hands. So first, I take it as they have very strong will to withhold two years in torture, in pain, in dark places, no food, being starved, being tortured. You need to be very strong. So first I say we need to give them the reassurance that we trust them. They know better than us. I can also say it takes a lot of time. We are only in the start of the healing process. And now that when they were brought home, it will be maybe a little faster, but it takes time to heal the body, it takes time to heal the wounds, and it takes much more time to heal the soul. We can only give them the ground, the love, and the possibility to see that there are good things in our life, that the family is strong, that they are being loved here and they are being protected. But one of the issues of being protected is to know that Hamas is not strong anymore and that we can maintain our security inside Israel. And it's not easy because we are releasing terrorists that have bloods on their hand. And we do expect all the countries that helped us get this agreement to continue in support and make sure that we will be able to live here securing also the Gaza people that were under Hamas terror domination. They will also will be able to live insecure. So only I think love is one of the strongest feelings we can give to each other. And this is a very healing feeling.
- [13:58]
A
You know, it is healing and hopeful. Listening to you. Just one last question. Do you think, as President Trump has said, that this is the end of the war?
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C
I would like to say yes, but I'm Jewish and I know that for thousands of years, there always been some terrorists that wanted to eliminate us, wanted to kill us. The Holocaust is just around the corner. It wasn't too far from today. In 1929, we suffered something very similar to the 7th of October. If we are strong and if the world, the free world, is strong, then it is more likely that we will have more years of secure or feeling of secure and we will be able to live in peace with our neighbors. But this needs to be together with the big states, the big leaders of the world. It is not something one country can do.
- [15:14]
A
Exactly. And they're all in Sharm el Sheikh, hopefully doing exactly what you've just said and just wish for.
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C
So I hope.
- [15:20]
A
Yes, I do too. So, Merav Leshem Gonen, thank you for being with us on. I mean, can I say it's the end of the, the first phase of your agony?
- [15:34]
C
I think so. But we are still owe our 24 murdered hostages that one that are no longer alive. We are owing them to bring them back here to be buried in our land. So we do need to make final steps, steps to make sure they're coming back. But yes, this is the start of a new dawn. That's what President Trump said, something like that. I do hope it is.
- [16:07]
A
Well, your smile says it all. Thank you very much. And we hope your daughter gets fully better. Thank you. Now, earlier live on air, I spoke about what a day of real joy this is for Israeli families whose loved ones are finally being returned from two years of horrific Hamas captivity. And for civilians in Gaza who finally had a reprieve from two years of brutal and deadly war. I noted that for the hostages who are finally home, it'll take a long time for them to recover mentally and physically. But I regret also saying that they might have been treated better than many Gazans because Hamas used these hostages as pawns and bargaining chips. But that was insensitive and it was wrong. From speaking to many former hostages and and their families, like everyone, I've been horrified at what Hamas has subjected them to over two long years. They've told me, as you've just heard their stories, of barely being able to breathe in the tunnels, not being allowed to cry, being starved and made to dig their own graves. And of course, today, some of the hostages are coming back in body bags. Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the.
- [17:18]
D
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. More and more young people, people in their 40s, 30s, even 20s, are being diagnosed with cancers that used to be incredibly rare at those ages. It is something my guest, Dr. Kimi Ng has been seeing up close.
- [17:35]
C
It was shocking to see that a young person could be diagnosed with stage four disease.
- [17:43]
D
Why is this happening and what can we do about it? Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:56]
A
Returning now to Gaza where the full extent of the devastation is beginning to emerge. Let's speak to Yusra Abushareh. She's the program coordinator for the International Network for Aid, Relief and Assistance, and she's in Gaza and can tell us more about the people and the conditions there. Yusra Abu Sharh, welcome to the program. So you've been, you've been there and working there since the start of the war. Um, you know, we've seen, I don't know whether you've seen on social media or phones or whatever, how happy the families in Israel were to receive their hostages back. What kind of a feeling is it in Gaza where you are with people who no longer are facing the bombs and the, you know, the, the siege and all the rest of it?
- [18:43]
E
Yes, actually with different reasons. People are here in the Gaza Strip also happy and very glad for this war to end, but also they have this mixed feelings of worry and they have the uncertainty as the majority of their areas and houses have been completely or severely damaged and destroyed. For example, Gaza City, where I was internally displaced for the past few months. More than 85 of the premises and buildings are turned into dust. Also in Eastern Khan Yun, as I visited yesterday as well. Families, the desperation among the families there is so obvious and even with this level of happiness and hope, still it's associated with also desperation and anger inside them. We are talking about two years in row and 24 months of facing all kinds of fears and the trauma from the displacement to hunger. I experienced and I witnessed children who were celebrating eating cucumbers instead of chocolate, for example. Also I met a boy who has a wish for his 15 years birthday just to have wheat flour bread. So imagine for a child on this globe in 2025, there are children who are facing not only continuing bombardment and the scary situation, but also hunger, the losing of normalcy as well. It's now the third academic year that children in Gaza are losing and we, myself, my family, we were so excited this time before just a month for them to have a good quality education at one of the private schools that has returned to work in Gaza City. But unfortunately due to that displacement, we couldn't make it so. And it's not only about like displacement, it's about losing the network and the friendship and My, My son told me during the latest displacement from Gaza City to the south. Hey, Mom. Whenever I have friends at the new displacement area, we are forced to leave and to flee again. What kind of it would look like for us? Please get us out of Gaza Strip. So imagine as a mother and as a humanitarian aid worker who are supporting children in this horrific situation. So it's an ending for a chapter, it's an ending for the bombardment, but also it's a start and just the beginning.
- [21:54]
A
Yes.
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E
Too much work to do, so.
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A
Too much work to do, as you say. We were, as you were talking, seeing pictures of so many people just, you know, desperate for food. That was before the end of this war. And now we're told by the un, quote, real progress has been made in humanitarian operations since the ceasefire came into effect. Cooking gas for the first time since March, as well as tents and frozen meat, fresh flour, sorry, fresh fruit, flower medicines. Can you see the surge? Can you see it actually coming in? Obviously it's not the end of it and they need a lot, but can you see it beginning to reach the people who need it and making a difference?
- [22:39]
E
Yes, it has started to enter, but much more is needed and we need to scale up. Hundreds of trucks a day is not enough. We need more than at least like 600 trucks and sometimes a thousand of trucks on daily basis so that the people start to feel this scale up and this access to their basic needs. As you said, cooking gas like I am as a humanitarian aid worker. I work for at least eight hours a day and return back to the house to fire, cook, and imagine how it's overwhelming and it's hard for us as humanitarian aid workers to go through all of these difficult circumstances. So, yes, people are hopeful for these AIDS to enter and to reach people. And what concerns us the most, not only having them entering inside Gaza, but also to ensure that impartial and dignified distribution is ongoing for those in need. Because, you know, now with this level of destruction and damage, the infrastructure of a humanitarian organization and on the civilian of infrastructure is damaged. So we need to work in coordination and in collaborative way as a humanitarian organization to ensure that these aids are timely dispatched to people. And in order to have more and more coming in Gaza Strip. So also for Inara, we are so hopeful for our impact because we are focusing on the mental health and psychosocial support for children. So this time is a glimpse of hope to have more sustainable impact on their mental health and psychosocial conditions. Because during the past two years, whenever we Provide any kind of support. The trauma is ongoing. The trauma is continuing from this place.
- [24:46]
A
No, no, I don't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to ask you because you're talking about the children. You sent us a video of you traveling around Gaza and you found a group of children, young boys, and they were playing with bullets. I just want to play this little bit of the conversation you had with them.
- [25:03]
E
When I walked by, the group of children, Bo thought of everything that they are doing, but not the. The thing that I was shocked by something like this to play with it. So imagine after two years of continuing bombardment and displacement and the loss of their beloved ones, their normality, their academic life, now the only thing they have to play with is the war imminent.
- [25:56]
A
Well, I mean, you know, it is obviously really sad. And I just wonder whether, you know, we know because we've been told that there's a lot of ordinance, maybe some of it is unexploded. There's probably a lot of risk of, like, in any war zone, you know, when the guns go silent, there's still a lot of unexploded stuff there. So I wonder whether that's a worry and whether parents are trying to keep their kids away from this stuff. But also on the mental health of children who've gone through this and who are now playing in this rubble and with these bullets and things, do you have what it takes to care for people's health, mental health?
- [26:34]
E
Yeah, actually, we will work together to have this awareness for not only children, but also parents and adults on avoiding the risks from war remnant. But to me, what was shocking is this is the only thing that they have to play with. And also what concerns me the most as a mother and as humanitarian aid workers is how to maintain the values inside those children who have been experiencing all these violence. So to us, we will work very hard to keep them believe in humanity because unfortunately, majority of people here in Gaza started to lose their beliefs in humanity after the international community maybe, as they said, has failed them. So to me, myself, I kept telling my children to be empathetic and to help each other. And the other day, I was in my way to work, and my children was with me at that time. And I asked my son to get out of the car to help a girl who was lifting and carrying two heavy jerry cans in her both hands. And I was shocked as well, because he walked for 15 minutes, and I didn't expect that distance to be that long. And when he came back, he said, mom, it was so exhausting I could make it to pick the girl up in the car, but I wanted my children to feel how people are suffering more than them and how to be very empathetic and very supportive, even if they have endured too much as they could say it.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah. Yusra Abu Sharikh, what an incredible life lesson. Thanks for being with us from Gaza. Enough with war. Welcome to peace. That was Egypt's president as he welcomed Donald Trump and the leaders of more than 20 world leaders to a summit on Gaza's future.
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E
In.
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A
In Sharm El Sheikh, Benjamin Netanyahu decided not to accept Sisi's invitation to join the peace summit. But he had introduced Trump in the Knesset earlier with fulsome praise. Thanks. And what sounded like a victory lap.
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D
Thank you for recognizing Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights.
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A
Thank you for standing up to the.
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D
Lies against Israel and the United Nations.
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A
Thank you for recognizing in your 2020.
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D
Peace Plan our rights in Judea and Samaria, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. Thank you for brokering the historic Abraham Accords. Thank you for withdrawing from the disastrous Iran nuclear deal.
- [29:46]
A
So we'll ask our next guest whether that sounds like someone signing onto President Trump's call for a negotiate deal, peace with the Palestinians. Joining me now is Khalid El Gindi, a former advisor to the official Palestinian leadership. Welcome to the program. You know, clearly there's a lot to ask about the emotion of the day, but we want really you to talk about the future that President Trump and others have been talking to and are discussing in Egypt. What do you think is the hope right now that actually this ceasefire can be the first building block towards then building a negotiation around it for an actual end to this war and a real peace?
- [30:33]
F
Yeah, that is the million dollar question. I think the images that we saw today of hostages and prisoners being released and world leaders gathering in Egypt to declare an end to this really horrific war. I mean, all of that is obviously very welcome. I think the thing that struck me the most is the sort of grandiose terms that President Trump especially was, was speaking in, talking about a golden age and talking about, you know, an eternal peace and that suffering is over. All of which I think really understates or actually overstates the reality. I mean, yes, this is an important moment in which the horrors of the last two years have ended. But the hard work, as we, as we heard from your previous guest, the hard work is really just beginning. Gaza has been destroyed. It's going to be very hard to rebuild. It will take a very long time. An Enormous amount of resources. There's a lot that needs to happen in the meantime. How do you keep people alive in a place where all of the means to sustain life have been systematically destroyed? So I think this is a hopeful step, but the notion that this is the, the end of a hundred year Israeli Palestinian conflict, I think is illusory and, and dangerous because it gives people the impression that all of this is behind us, when in fact we're likely to see the effects of this for decades.
- [32:16]
A
Okay, but let me pick a few, you know, questions or pick that apart a little bit. Clearly you have to have hope. Clearly you have to project hope as a world leader. And clearly you hope that you haven't just negotiated a temporary ceasefire, but you have done something that gives space and a chance for the real end. And I think everybody, certainly all the civilians, want that. So you've been involved in various peace negotiations. What has to happen next? Is it the stabilization force for Gaza? Is it reform of the pa? Is it governance for ga? What are the blocks and the phases, you know, contained in the 20 point plan of Trump's, but also in previous and, you know, any plan to be workable like in other, you know, Northern Ireland, other places that have come out of decades of conflict into a political compromise and a political future.
- [33:15]
F
Yeah, I think what has to happen really is at the level of politics and not really technical issues. I mean, yes, of course there need to be aid and construction materials and resources, but I think one of the first things that has to happen is for Palestinians to put their house in order. There needs to be a singular unitary Palestinian political address, a credible leadership, which frankly does not exist. There is a leadership in Ramallah, and of course there's the Hamas authority that has been dismantled in Gaza. But neither of those are genuinely representative or can speak to the kind of existential threats that, that Palestinians now face. So there needs to be a credible political leadership of Palestinians before any kind of future diplomatic process can proceed. And I think it's also important, you know, what, what isn't in this 20 point plan is Palestinian self determination, Palestinian rights, or the issue of accountability. Let's not forget that Prime Minister Netanyahu has an arrest warrant by the International Criminal Court. There is a genocide case pending at the International Court of Justice. Those processes, I think, are really important to have them to see them through, because accountability will be very important to stabilizing the situation, to giving Palestinians hope, and to addressing the kind of collective trauma that has been inflicted. So there's so much that is not in this plan. And so I think it's very early to talk about a negotiations or a political process.
- [35:16]
A
Yes, but I'm really interested in you digging down into the, how Palestinians have to get their own political house or their own house in order. What does reform look like? And are you at all concerned that even today some Hamas or I don't know how much but it's been reported from there are beginning to fill the vacuum areas once the Israelis are pulling back. Now, some people might say it has to be like that because it's, there's nobody else doing law and order. But on the other hand, they're not meant to have a role in governance. All the Arab states have signed onto that as well as the obvious other states. So how do you break that reality?
- [35:56]
F
Yeah, that's going to be really hard. I mean, of course, as you said, there has to be some basic law and order in an environment where chaos could easily overtake the situation. There is a kind of deployment of police and civil defense and others to try to establish that. And the fact is that Hamas is the de facto authority, but even Hamas has agreed to kind of end its role in the future governance. But in the meantime, someone has to play that role. We know it can't be the Israeli army, it can't be the international force, because that's not yet in place. So there has to be something in the interim. And it's really up to the Palestinian political factions, Hamas, Fatah, the Palestinian Authority, others, Palestinian civil society need to be in a, in a conversation with each other about how to begin the process of, of governing Gaza. I mean, I think it requires a Palestinian consensus first so that, so that it's not exclusively Hamas or, or chaos. Right. Those aren't the only two options, but I think it has to begin with an intra Palestinian conversation and consensus building process.
- [37:29]
A
Khalid, let me play a little bit of what President Trump said today about the bigger picture. So let's just, and about Gaza too. Let's just play it.
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B
The total focus of Gazans must be on restoring the fundamentals of stability, safety, dignity and economic development so they can finally have the better life that their children really do desire, deserve after all these decades of horror. I intend to be a partner in this effort in the sense that we're going to help and we're going to do something that became unbelievably popular. Everybody wants to be on it. It's called the Board of Peace.
- [38:13]
A
So the Board of Peace that he mentioned, with him as head of that board and they say former Prime Minister of Britain, Tony Blair, as you know, is a major, I guess, second on the board. And obviously the regional players, all those who are in Qatar, sorry, Sharm el Sheikh right now, I mean, that's a framework. Does that work as a temporary or, you know, stopgap measure to get to some place where you can then hand it over to the Palestinians?
- [38:48]
F
I mean, it's hard to say because right now this idea of a peace board is imaginary. I mean, it's, it's an abstract idea. Nobody really understands exactly what its role will be. I think the problem with it on its face is that it doesn't really include Palestinians. Right? I mean, you cannot talk about the future of Gaza or the rest of Palestine without including Palestinians. Nobody has the best interests of Palestinians at heart more than the Palestinians themselves. So the way it's laid out, an American led peace board with Tony Blair as some sort of High commissioner, sounds more like a colonial project than it does a stepping stone toward Palestinian self determination or statehood. And in that speech from Donald Trump, we heard him say a lot of words that are important. Prosperity, dignity and stability. But what we didn't hear is the word freedom. Palestinians have to have the hope that they will someday live like all other people with a right to be free on their own land. And that's not part of this plan. And that's what we're not hearing from American or certainly Israeli leaders. And frankly, we're not even hearing much about it from the Europeans and the Arab states. But Palestinian rights and freedom are the key to any future stability in any context, but especially in a war ravaged Gaza.
- [40:33]
A
Khalid Al Gindi, thank you so much indeed. And we'll be back after this short break. This is a real good story about.
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C
Bronx and his dad, Ryan, real United Airlines customers.
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D
We were returning home and one of.
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A
The flight attendants asked Bronx if he.
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D
Wanted to see the flight deck and meet Captain Andrew.
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I got to sit in the driver's seat.
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I grew up in an aviation family.
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And seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.
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Of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot.
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These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
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C
It felt like I was the captain.
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D
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever.
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A
That's how good leads the way now. As we've heard, the return of Israeli hostages to their families and the release of Palestinian prisoners and detainees marks a hopeful start to the agreed ceasefire deal. But how will it unfold in the coming weeks and months? Gershon Baskin is a former Israeli hostage negotiator, and he's joining me now with his thoughts on the next steps. Welcome back to the program. So tell me something. You are a veteran of this.
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F
And.
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A
The negotiations and the hostage deals. Do you think that this is an end to the war, as President Trump has said and you've said?
- [41:57]
D
I think it is, yeah. I think it is. I've been deeply involved, intensively involved in the last two months in these negotiations together with Mr. Witkoff and Hamas and the Qataris and the Egyptians. And I think this is a very different negotiation than has ever taken place in the Middle East. And the different factor here is President Trump and the decision that he made after the failed Israeli assassination attempt of the Hamas leadership in Doha to make a deal which the parties cannot escape from. He imposed it on Israel and created the reality where Netanyahu agreed to it. He imposed it on Hamas and created the reality where Hamas agreed to it and put together the package. I know that what is supposed to happen next after they sign this agreement, the mediators in Sharm El Sheikh this evening is that the Americans are planning to go to the Security Council to get a Security Council resolution which will frame this in an international binding decision that will enable the deployment of a multinational force. It will give a legal basis to the establishment of a Palestinian temporary government in Gaza, the creation of a Palestinian police force or security force. It will also be the framework for the peace board that Trump talked about to be a kind of overseer with regard to what needs to happen in Gaza in terms of beginning to clear the rubble, to provide infrastructure for water, electricity, sewage, all these kind of things. I very much respect Khalid, the previous guest, and what he had to say. And I think the bottom line is that most of what he said is right. The problem is that the people of Gaza don't have the time to wait for a Palestinian national consensus. They need to have housing. Winter is coming, the rains are coming, it gets cold. They need to have shelter, they need to have water. They need to have food. That can't wait for a Palestinian consensus on what happens next.
- [43:52]
A
You know, it's really interesting. I was going to ask you what you thought about that, but let me just ask you this, because a lot of people in the region, probably not those who are involved in this, but others have said this whole idea of a high commission, you know, Donald Trump at the head of it and Tony Blair as the high commissioner, smacks of old school colonialism. But there have been definitely. So you think that too I mean, I noticed, you know, at the end of the war in Bosnia, there was a external high commissioner, it's called high representative, but there was one for, you know, and I think there may still be. So how do you get, how do you get beyond that?
- [44:33]
D
Well, I know that over the last couple of weeks, my Palestinian partner, Samahsin Jalawi and I have been engaging in zoom meetings with a bunch of civil society leaders from civil society and private sector leaders from Gaza who are not Hamas. They have written two letters to President Trump that I delivered to the President through Steve Witkoff in which they said, we are credible civil society leaders. Each one of them has a position and a reputation in Gazaan society. And they said they're willing to take part in the new government in Gaza. I think that the Americans understand quite well that they can't have this neocolonialist system that Tony Blair is going to govern over Gaza. Tony Blair will have a role of some kind of oversight of there's going to be tens of billions of dollars required for rebuilding Gaza and there isn't really a mechanism for using that money, for spending that money, for making sure that it's not funneled off on the side by all kinds of other third party interest. And I think more or less that's the kind of role he's going to play. Steve Witkoff described it to me as kind of a receivership of a bankrupt company. But the decisions are really going to have to be made by the Gazans. I think that Trump pulled back from the idea of the Riviera where people are going to come and invest in living Gaza, maybe mainly Israeli settlers. And Trump has been saying lately, Wyckoff said this in the negotiations that Gaza is for the Gazans and the development of Gaza will be for the Gazans. And I think that they have to understand that the decisions made for the future of Gaza have to be by the Gazans, by the Palestinian people. Mahmoud Abbas, who suddenly showed up in Sharm El Sheikh today, he hadn't been invited until a few hours ago, was a signal that the Americans are beginning to recognize. Just remember, a few weeks ago, Trump denied Mahmoud Abbas a visa to go to the United Nations. And there he was at this American sponsored, Egyptian sponsored conference in Sharm El Sheikh, Mahmoud Abbasid, that the Palestinians would go to national elections within 12 months. He also said those elections would be conducted in a way that political parties, that only political parties that support the PLO line of a two state solution of making peace with Israel would be allowed to participate which means that if Hamas still exists as an organization which is seeking to destroy Israel, it will not be allowed to participate in those elections. And I think that the Palestinians, particularly those in Gaza, have learned the lesson that there is no viable armed struggle scenario anymore. Killing Israelis is not going to free Palestine.
- [47:02]
A
Exactly. And in fact, so many people from Gaza, Gazans, when the ceasefire deal was announced, I mean, they reached out to the press and their voices were heard. They were very upset and very angry that Hamas had led them to this. They were talking against Hamas. So that's an interesting dynamic as well. But let me ask you, because you mentioned about implementation. So the special envoy, Steve Witkoff, said today that he and Jared Kushner have already begun working on the implementation side of the peace deal between Israel and Hamas. I mean, Hamas. But the question to you is, do you think it was. Why do you think Bibi Netanyahu did not go to Sharm El Sheikh, having been invited to do so?
- [47:51]
D
I think it was a historic error that he wasn't there. And I think that he has both internal political calculations to make. This is the eve of the Simchatorah holiday, when it's forbidden according to Jewish law to travel. So he used that as the excuse. His office or people around him also said that President Erdogan of Turkey had threatened to withdraw from it if Netanyahu showed up. We don't know. I think it would have been uncomfortable for Netanyahu to be there. And it was a historic opportunity had Netanyahu been ready to cross a bridge in recognizing that the only solution to this conflict is a two state solution. And that message would have been very strong at the meeting in Sharm El Sheikh, because every leader who was there today, I'm sure, is telling President Trump that you can't talk about peace between Israel and Gaza. You have to talk about peace between Israel and Palestine. We've all recognized the state of Palestine. It's time for the Americans to understand that the two state solution is where we need to move. Netanyahu is not going to be the Israeli leader who's going to do that. And I think everyone knows that unless a miracle happens. And Trump's pressure on Netanyahu, his influence on Netanyahu, it pushes him in that direction, but that doesn't seem very likely at this point.
- [49:06]
A
So in that case, there's not a huge amount of hope because President Trump is President Trump, the President of the United States who has the only major leverage over Israel and including their prime minister. You know, some are concerned in Certainly in Arab.
- [49:20]
D
I don't agree, Christian. No, I think that there is reason for hope, because I think there's reason for hope. First of all, this war is over and it's really over. It's not going to renew. And Hamas is not going to be playing the major role that it played in Gaza anymore. They will not be the government. And the question of what to do with their arms will be dealt with. But Hamas doesn't really have an effective army anymore. They can't really threaten Israel anymore. If there are no Israeli soldiers in Gaza, the Hamas fighters have no target to shoot at. And there will be the option of some of the Hamas commanders deciding to leave Gaza with their families, with the promise of amnesty that the Americans are providing. The wider picture of dealing with the Israeli Palestinian question is there, and it's in the international community. And the isolation that Israel has been feeling as a result of the war crimes that it's committed in Gaza will not disappear overnight. If there is a refusal of the Israelis to move forward toward some kind of reasonable peace process with the Palestinians, Israel will feel that isolation more and more, and that will impact our elections. And if the Palestinians hold elections before Israel, and if by some miracle they elect a leadership which reaches out to the Israeli people and say, we don't want to fight you anymore, we want to live in peace, we will have a dynamic change of the electorate in Israel as well.
- [50:38]
A
So do you think, Gershon, that first of all, who do you identify as that leader on the Palestinian side, having worked so hard on all of this? And do you think Marwan Barghouti, who is jailed and wasn't, wasn't one of those who was released? Do you think he should have been? Is he the kind of political leader you would think as an Israeli, despite what he was convicted for, would serve this purpose at the moment?
- [51:05]
D
Yeah, I know Marwan very well. I know him from 1996. I worked with him intensively over a period of years when back channel negotiations were going on on permanent status. I've been in contact with Marwan over the years through his family and his lawyer. And for a year and a half before the war, I conducted a correspondence between Marwan and one of the former heads of the Israeli Shin Bet. They managed to exchange letters five times before the war began. Marwan's last letter was a four page letter detailing how he viewed Israeli Palestinian peace on the basis of a two state solution with a regional economic and security framework. An envelope to provide both Israel and Palestine with the economic and Security needs that they both have. But Marwan has been in prison for a very long time. Over the past two years, he's been tortured, he's been abused, he's been in solitary confinement, he's been starved. And we don't know how that affects his psyche. I wrote to Witkoff more than about two weeks ago detailing who Marwan is in the background about his trial, about what most Palestinians think about him. I was asked to what the mainstream Israelis think about Marwan, and I brought the opinion of about 20 senior Israelis, former military people, generals, a couple of prime ministers, heads of the Shin Bet, heads of the Mossad. Not everyone agreed, but the majority was that Marwan needs to be released.
- [52:24]
A
All right.
- [52:25]
D
I think that the Israelis need to engage him in a political discussion, and he needs to be released.
- [52:30]
A
Well, you know, we're into phase two, so we'll see what happens. Thank you so much, Gershon Baskin. And finally, as the world watches the emotional reunions of Israeli and Palestinian families, many opponents praying for a lasting peace in the Middle east, including Pope Leo himself. In this address in St. Peter's Square over the weekend, this is what he said.
- [52:52]
D
Ne le ultimi journey.
- [52:54]
F
In recent days, the agreement to begin the peace process has given a spark of hope to the Holy Land. I encourage the parties involved to continue courageously on the path towards a just and lasting peace, respectful of the legitimate aspirations of the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. Two years of conflict have left death.
- [53:14]
A
And destruction everywhere, especially in the hearts.
- [53:17]
F
Of those who have brutally lost their children, parents, friends, everything.
- [53:24]
A
Pontiff also expressed his sorrow for Russia's continued and stepped up attacks on Ukraine. That's it for now. Goodbye. From London.
- [53:35]
D
Foreign.
- [53:40]
C
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, you may have noticed that tech platforms are increasingly trying to figure out how old you are. What's the deal with that? And should you be worried about handing over your information to these platforms to verify your age?
- [53:58]
D
The Internet we have right now is mostly anonymous. When we talk about age verification, it completely destroys the idea of online anonymity. Data is something that you can sell. It is something that you can exchange. It is a commodity nowadays. And so when we're thinking about privacy, your data is something that you want to hold as close to your chest as possible.
- [54:16]
C
Listen to CNN's Terms of Service with me, Claire Duffy. Wherever you get your podcasts.