Lebanese President Joseph Aoun

Summary

Amanpour – Lebanese President Joseph Aoun, America at 250, and Lewis & Clark Revisited

Podcast: Amanpour
Host: Christiane Amanpour (with Bianna Golodryga sitting in)
Release Date: June 5, 2026
Featured Guests: Joseph Aoun (Lebanese President), Eddie Glaude Jr. (historian), Craig Fairman (author)
Episode Theme:
This episode explores three major topics: Lebanon’s precarious situation amid persistent hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah with commentary from President Joseph Aoun; an in-depth discussion with historian Eddie Glaude Jr on the contradictions and complexities of America’s 250th anniversary; and a fresh re-examination of the Lewis and Clark expedition with author Craig Fairman.

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1. Lebanon in Crisis: President Joseph Aoun’s Exclusive Interview

Main Theme:
President Joseph Aoun addresses Lebanon’s ongoing conflict involving Israel and Hezbollah, the exhaustion of the Lebanese people, and the political and humanitarian stakes for the region.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Stalemate, Ceasefire, and Futility of War

  • Lebanese President Joseph Aoun responds to the viability of a ceasefire, expressing pessimism rooted in historical repetition:

    "The only way to end this conflict is through negotiation... The strategy they are following, shortsighted, counterproductive... War, it's a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war."
    — Joseph Aoun, 03:20

  • He emphasizes both sides—Israel and Hezbollah—are locked in cycles of violence that have not brought meaningful results since 1948.

    "They are both, I think, fed up with war since 1948. This is a huge opportunity. So both, they have to choose: war or negotiation or diplomacy. Believe me, diplomacy. This is the best way forward."
    — Joseph Aoun, 03:50

• Non-State Actors and the Limits of Military Power

  • Aoun argues that Israel’s military superiority is ineffective against non-state actors:

    "Dealing with non-state actors is different... Hezbollah, it's an idea, it's not an objective you can see... The battlefield is the people. They are hiding among the people. So how do you measure your success? You count bodies."
    — Joseph Aoun, 05:35

• Root Causes & The Role of the State

  • He insists that the path to disarming Hezbollah runs through resolving root causes:

    "Hezbollah can only be dealt with domestically... on one condition: That we remove the root causes of the existence of its weapon."
    — Joseph Aoun, 06:52

  • Root Cause Identified:

    "Which is Israeli withdrawal, stopping, ending the state of hostility with Israel."
    — Joseph Aoun, 07:31

• Interference by Iran and Hezbollah’s Autonomy

  • Aoun laments Iran’s exploitation of Lebanon’s conflict for its own strategic benefit:

    "They are using Lebanon as a bargaining chip in their negotiation with the United States. It's unacceptable."
    — Joseph Aoun, 09:26

  • He clarifies his limited influence over Hezbollah and Iran, relying instead on parliamentary Speaker Nabi Berry to broker solutions.

• The Humanitarian Toll

  • Aoun gives a stark account of the suffering:

    "Since March 2, more than 3,500 people in Lebanon killed. On average, 13 children have been killed by Israelis every day since the escalation began. More than 10,000 people have been injured. More than 1 million people have been displaced—20% of the population, can you imagine that?"
    — Joseph Aoun, 13:31

• Presidential Resolve and Human Agency

  • Despite feeling powerless, he reaffirms his responsibility:

    "My duty and I'm committed to save the country. I'll do whatever it takes. When there is a will, there is always a way."
    — Joseph Aoun, 15:22

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "[Hezbollah] is an idea, it's not an objective that you can see... When you have two conventional forces... but when it's non-state actors, the kinetic part is 10%, the non-kinetic—social, political, economic—is 90%."
  — Joseph Aoun, 06:22
• "Our houses being destroyed. They are using Lebanon as a bargaining chip... It's not your job to interfere into our country."
  — Joseph Aoun, 09:26
• "They can flatten the whole country, they can invade the whole country, but they will never be able to achieve their objective."
  — Joseph Aoun, 15:41

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction of interview context – 01:14–02:48
• Aoun on negotiations and diplomacy – 03:20–04:55
• On non-state actors, Hezbollah, and Israeli strategy – 05:35–06:52
• The influence of Iran and Iran’s IRGC – 09:26
• Humanitarian toll described – 13:31
• Presidential resolve – 15:22

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2. America at 250: Reckoning with History and Identity

Main Theme:
Princeton historian Eddie Glaude Jr. discusses America’s “divided soul” on the eve of its 250th birthday, arguing that national anniversaries expose enduring contradictions around race, freedom, and national identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

• America’s Double Consciousness

  • Glaude builds on W.E.B. Du Bois’s “double consciousness” and extends it to the country as a whole:

    "America imagines itself at once as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic. And you can't hold those two commitments together without contradiction."
    — Eddie Glaude Jr., 23:36

• Milestone Anniversaries as Moments of Amnesia

  • He critiques how major US anniversaries have often been moments of myth-making and historical redaction:

    "These celebrations... are often moments to turn a blind eye to the evils of the past and the present, to suppress the fact of America's divided soul."
    — Eddie Glaude Jr., 25:53

  • Historic examples:
    • 1876 (Centennial): Douglass nearly barred from the dais, horrors of slavery omitted
    • 1926 (Sesquicentennial): Klan permitted to rally during national festivities
    • 1976 (Bicentennial): Racial tension, anti-bussing violence, Watergate malaise

• The Allure and Danger of “Progress”

  "At every moment when there’s progress, there’s a reassertion of the idea that the country belongs only to certain folk... We appeal to progress in order to absolve ourselves of our sins."
  — Eddie Glaude Jr., 28:36

• What Would a Meaningful 250th Look Like?

  "A meaningful celebration... would involve a rejection of that storybook version that celebrates what I take to be a white nationalist project and instead a full-throated expression of the vast diversity of this nation."
  — Eddie Glaude Jr., 29:49

• Political Co-option of Anniversaries

  • Glaude critiques President Trump’s plans for 'Freedom 250':

    "These folk want to make the country’s birthday indistinguishable from Donald Trump's ascendancy... We must reject it, because Donald Trump is really trying to hijack the very idea of America."
    — Eddie Glaude Jr., 32:13

• Dissatisfaction and Melancholia

  "There's a deep sense of melancholia and loneliness that soaks the country... at the heart of it, is this toxic brew of greed, selfishness, and hatred."
  — Eddie Glaude Jr., 33:44

• On the Failure of Political Parties

  "What we can say... is that the political system of the United States has failed us. The evidence is clear that it's not just simply the Democratic Party... in so many ways, the nation has."
  — Eddie Glaude Jr., 35:23

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "History might not repeat itself, but... it damn sure rhymes." — Eddie Glaude Jr., 28:12
• "What we need to do is to confront who we are so that we can actually imagine a better way of being together as Americans." — Eddie Glaude Jr., 29:45

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction to America 250 theme – 22:26
• Double consciousness and divided soul – 23:36
• Anniversaries as suppression of uncomfortable truths – 25:53
• The “progress” narrative and its limits – 28:36
• The controversy over Freedom 250 and politicization – 32:13

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3. Rewriting Lewis and Clark: New Perspectives on an American Epic

Main Theme:
Author and historian Craig Fairman discusses his new book, “This Vast Enterprise,” which reinterprets the Lewis and Clark expedition to foreground overlooked stories and complications.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Humanizing Familiar Heroes

  • Fairman’s account centers not just on Lewis and Clark but on “overlooked” characters:

    "I tried to write a book that told the adventure story but also captured the humanity along the way... It was telling the story differently."
    — Craig Fairman, 39:35

• York: The Enslaved Explorer

  • Fairman explores the story of York, Clark’s enslaved “body servant,” who played a critical—and overlooked—role:

    "York was one of the essential people when they were facing whitewater rapids especially... his arc is both inspiring and heartbreaking in the way that American history sometimes is."
    — Craig Fairman, 42:24

  • Despite being empowered during the expedition—including voting on key decisions—York was denied his freedom upon their return:

    "York says, because of my immense services, I think I've earned my freedom. Clark denies that request... The end of York’s life, unfortunately, is tragic."
    — Craig Fairman, 45:03

• Clark’s Contradictions

  • Fairman wrestles with the legacy of William Clark:

    "We can admire how he took care of his soldiers while feeling real disdain for how he treated York... Owning a slave would warp the person who owned the slave."
    — Craig Fairman, 45:50

• Land: The Heart of Empire and Equality

  • The book focuses on perceptions of land, varying by class, rank, and culture:

    "For Lewis or Clark, land is an imperial object... To regular soldiers, land was what they didn’t have... The native people loved the land. They saw the land differently as well."
    — Craig Fairman, 46:56

• Sacagawea: More Than a Guide

  • Recovers the narrative of Sacagawea as a strategist and translator, not a passive figure:

    "Sacagawea wasn't just important for the expedition. She was important for the arc of her own life... I think we should think of her as an explorer too."
    — Craig Fairman, 49:48 & 52:31

• The Expedition as an American Parable

  • The Lewis and Clark expedition as a metaphor for America’s ambition and its contradictions:

    "They were able to offer the best parts of America: confidence, swagger, orientation toward the future, but also some of the downsides... they tried, they gave it their best shot."
    — Craig Fairman, 52:42

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Astronauts in canoes." (on Lewis and Clark as American explorers)
• "Sacagawea began to run, and when she reached him, they embraced. She began to cry quietly at first and then not until she was sobbing."
  — Craig Fairman, reading from his book, 50:08

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Fairman on reframing the expedition – 39:24–40:29
• York’s story, voting, and aftermath – 42:14–45:03
• Clark’s contradictions – 45:39–46:41
• Land as an organizing theme – 46:41–47:35
• Sacagawea’s agency – 48:40–52:31
• The expedition and American mythos – 52:42

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Summary Table of Key Quotes

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |-------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Joseph Aoun | "War, it's a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war." | 03:20 | | Joseph Aoun | "They can flatten the whole country... but they will never be able to achieve their objective." | 15:41 | | Eddie Glaude Jr. | "America imagines itself at once as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic." | 23:36 | | Eddie Glaude Jr. | "History might not repeat itself... it damn sure rhymes." | 28:12 | | Craig Fairman | "York was one of the essential people... his arc is both inspiring and heartbreaking." | 42:24 | | Craig Fairman | "They were our astronauts in canoes." | 53:33 |

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Tone

The episode’s tone is sober, reflective, and urgent. Each segment is rich with first-person testimony, deep historical analysis, and a search for meaning amid crisis—whether at the Lebanese border, in America’s divided self, or within the fabled canoes of Lewis and Clark.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a must-listen for those seeking insight into how world events intersect with personal agency, the complexities of Middle East geopolitics, race and memory in American history—told through living voices wrestling with the burden of the past and the hope for something better.

Transcript

[Bianna Golodriga]

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[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

My duty and I'm committed to save the country. I'll do whatever it takes.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Christian sits down for an exclusive interview with Lebanese President Joseph Aoun. Forced to navigate between Israel, Hezbollah, Iran and the United States, then America imagines

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

itself at once as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic. And you can't hold those two commitments together without contradiction.

[Bianna Golodriga]

As America approaches its 250th birthday, just what sort of nation is it celebrating? I speak with historian Eddie Glad Jr.

[Author Craig Fairman]

And I don't think there's a better adventure story in American history than Lewis

[Bianna Golodriga]

and Clark, this vast enterprise. Walter Isaacson speaks with author Craig Fairman about his fresh take on the iconic Lewis and Clark expedition. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga. New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. In Lebanon, a U. S mediated ceasefire shows little sign of holding. Four people were killed in Israeli strikes on southern Lebanon on Friday, according to the state news agency, while Hezbollah says that it continues to target Israeli troops near the border. The cease fire was announced Wednesday in Washington contingent on a complete cessation of Hezbollah fire and the evacuation of all Hezbollah operatives from southern Lebanon on Thursday, Hezbollah rejected those terms. Today, Lebanon's parliament speaker, Nabi Berry, a Hezbollah ally, says that he will support a withdrawal if Israel withdraws. At the same time, complicating things further, Iran says a full ceasefire in Lebanon is a necessary condition for any peace deal with Washington. Today, Christiane met with Lebanese President Joseph Aoun in Beirut for an exclusive interview. Aun rarely speaks with foreign media, but is taking this step to send a message to the world about the fate of his nation.

[Christiane Amanpour]

President Aoun, thank you so much for being with us. Welcome to the program.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Thank you for coming.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Please, this is a very crucial moment for your country, for you, in fact, for the region. The latest ceasefire has been announced late this week, and yet as we speak, the Israeli prime minister says Hezbollah has not agreed, so he will not recommend a ceasefire to his cabinet. Therefore, it doesn't exist. According to Israel, at This moment. And in any event, they're always being violated by both sides. Do you think this is going to be any different?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

It's difficult. I know the only way, for me, the only way to end this conflict is through negotiation. The Israelis, Prime Minister Netanyahu and Hezbollah, they have to understand that they are waging a futile war. The strategy that they are following, shortsighted, counterproductive, and believe me, it will never lead to the desired outcome. War, it's a bloody negotiation, whereas negotiation is a bloodless war. We have a great opportunity to end the state of hostility between Lebanon and Israel. We have a great opportunity for both the, the Lebanese and the Israeli people to live in safety and security. They are both, I think, fed up with war since 1948. This is a huge opportunity. So both, they have to choose war or negotiation or diplomacy. Believe me, diplomacy. This is the best way forward. As a military man, I understand and I've lived the atrocities and the hardship of the war. The best way is through diplomacy. Wars, normally, historically speaking, ends either way. There is a victor and a vanquish or through negotiation. Both sides will never be able to achieve their objective.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Why do you say that? Because clearly Israel believes, and it is the superior power, conventionally speaking, that it can keep pushing Hezbollah back. As long as Hezbollah keeps firing into Israel, it can. It's the whole mowing the lawn strategy that they have. And you're right, every time there's a ceasefire, there are violations. There have been these incursions, these wars periodically over the last, you know, at least since 2000 with Hezbollah and Israel. And it keeps coming back to the same place. Hezbollah keeps doing the provocations, keeps doing Iran's work. So maybe this is what suits them. Maybe you will always be in the middle of this.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

You're absolutely right. That's what they think. But that's what I said, that their strategy is short sighted. They've tried it before, in 2000, in 2006, in 2023, 24 and 2026 now. But honestly, they can invade the whole country, they can flatten the whole country, but they will never be able to to achieve their objective. Because dealing with non state actors is different than dealing with a conventional forces. When you have two conventional forces, you have the one that possesses more capabilities, will defeat the other side. So Hezbollah, it's an idea, it's not an objective that you can see, it's not a geographic objective. It's war amongst the people. As former British General Termit Rupert Smith in his book the Utility of Force it's war amongst people. The battlefield is the people. They are hiding among the people. So how you measure your success? You count bodies. They've tried it in Gaza. Hamas still exists or not?

[Christiane Amanpour]

It does.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

You have. Take for example the FARC in Colombia. Take for example the ira. When dealing with non state actors, it requires different strategy. A strategy of multiple lines of effort. The kinetic part of it is 10%. The non kinetic part, social, political and economic is 9%, 90%. Hezbollah can only dealt with with, can only be dealt with domestically. The job of the state of the government. But on one condition. That we remove the root causes of the existence of its weapon.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Which is?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Which is Israeli withdrawal, stopping, ending the state of hostility with Israel.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so that all sounds great and conventional. It just doesn't work. And it hasn't worked for decades now because there's so many other actors. Let's just take Hezbollah, non state actor, backed by Iran, the state. You go into ceasefire agreements as the head of state with Israel, but the non state actor is not party to this. In fact, the latest comments from Hezbollah to your government and to you basically says that this is a farce. The talks between your government and Israel, they call a farce. They say that you know, that they're not bound by this and they, they don't believe in this right now. So do you have any reason to believe, because you don't negotiate directly with Hezbollah.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Exactly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That they can be persuaded? What are the steps to make sure?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Hopefully they could. Hopefully and eventually they'll be persuaded. But the cost will be high. Unfortunately. I will try. Actually, nothing is impossible and I will keep pushing for it. At the end of the day, I have two choices, as I said, either to sit idle doing nothing or trying to negotiate and to reason with them. Definitely I don't maintain direct contact with them, but I maintain contact with Speaker Berry, who's also in line with the negotiation, who also wants to end this war, who is also fed up with war, seeing the destruction of the south. And he wants to get to end this war. So I'm counting on him. Definitely IRGC has a major influence on Hezbollah and they have to remember what they said yesterday. I totally reject their statement.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What who said this is who said

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

irgc, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, that they don't agree with this, they don't approve this agreement. What happened? It's not your country, it's our country. It's our obligation. It's not your job to interfere into our country. I reject the statement totally because our people being killed Our people being. Our houses being destroyed. They are using Lebanon as a bargaining chip in their negotiation with the United States. It's unacceptable. And here also, Hezbollah must understand that. Hezbollah must understand that no other way but to sit and talk. No other way to solve this problem and to save what's left except through negotiation and diplomacy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so as I said, definitely, I

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

have no influence over Iran. I don't have any influence over Iran.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And when you tell them that, when you tell the Iranian government what you just said to me, because I. I know you've spoken with them.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

What do you say? I met with president. The Iranian president twice, was the foreign minister a couple of times. And most of our discussion was based on the relationship, based on mutual respect, non interference into internal affairs. And it should be state to state relationship, not to state from state to only one part of the country.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But they don't necessarily agree with what you want to do, which is to stop Hezbollah and to stop and to disarm them and make them the political force or part of the.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

As I said, they are using Lebanon and Hezbollah mainly as a bargaining ship in their negotiation with the United States.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So let's get back to Hezbollah then.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

If Iran is not willing to do what you want and you tried to expel the Iranian representative here, not a full ambassador, but nonetheless. And he didn't go. He's still living here. Is he operating?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

No, no, no. He's his normal resident with no diplomatic capacity whatsoever.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So the Hezbollah leader here, Naim Qassem, has warned you all against confronting them, as I said. He also said these talks with Israel under US Auspices in the United States are a farce. And he also basically said, quote, the people have the right to take to the streets and bring down the government in confronting the American Israeli project.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Whoa.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That is a direct challenge to everything you're just saying right now.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

I don't want to comment on that. But let me tell you that the majority of the Lebanese people are fed up with wars. I'm seeing many of them across the board, Russia, Sunni, Jews, even Shiite. They said, we are with you. We are fed up. We need you. We need your help.

[Christiane Amanpour]

To you.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Yes, yes, exactly. I met many people from the south and the same conversation took place. We are fed up since 1969. We want to live in peace, and they deserve to live in peace and in dignity. They deserve not seeing their homes being destroyed every five to 10 years. They are fed up and they are really counting on me. And it's my obligation towards my people. It's the Lebanese people that are not Qasim, Naim Qasim people.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So they're Lebanese, they're not Naim Qasim's Hezbollah's people.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Exactly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Can I ask you just because I see you have some images there and we see the images on our television screens day in and day out. Neighborhoods being flattened, medics being targeted and killed. This is by the Israeli counteroffensive, or offensive, however you want to call it. Civilians, at least 3,500 civilians. In this latest round, you've got a million people who've been displaced. What is the toll on your own people and what can you do about it?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Since March 2, more than 3,500 people in Lebanon killed. On average, 13 children have been killed by Israelis every day since the escalation began. More than 10,000 people have been injured or wounded. More than 1 million people have been displaced from their homes. 20% of the population, can you imagine that? 20% of Lebanon's population, entire family have been wiped out. This is one family, Fa' Ur family. This is the Nimr family, Hamdan family. These are the Red Cross. This is a funeral of 13 members of the state security were killed in

[Christiane Amanpour]

one airstrike, one Israeli airstrike.

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

Exactly. And this is three months old, baby. Is this imminent threat?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, we see these kind of pictures coming out of Gaza, coming out of the occupied West Bank. We hear the Israeli defense authorities and others saying we are going to turn this part of Lebanon into Gaza. I mean, it's said. That is what they say again. Here we are in the Presidential palace, one of the areas of Beirut that have been struck. You can feel it here in this palace. You told me when the bombings happen, you can see it from your balcony here. Are you powerless?

[Lebanese President Joseph Aoun]

As I said, nothing is impossible. My duty, My duty and I'm committed to save the country. I'll do whatever it takes. When there is a will, there is always a way. I'm not saying that it's very easy. It's easy. Can you imagine or have you ever seen a 40 years conflict or 50 years conflict end in one day or overnight? So. But we have to struggle in order to save what's left of the country. And again, allow me to repeat that they can flatten the whole country, they can destroy the whole country, they can invade the whole country, but they will never be able to achieve their objective. On the contrary, Hezbollah can drag the country into a protracted war, but they will never be able to achieve their objective as well. So it's about time for both sides to sit and talk.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And we'll have more of that interview on Monday. Later in the program, America approaches 250. But who gets to celebrate? Author Eddie Lodz sets out his argument that the way the country recognizes national milestones is anything but neutral. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, the idea of riding in a car with no driver can feel daunting. And this technology raises questions about safety and the future of transportation. That's why I'm here with Nicole Gable, head of business development and strategic partnerships at Waymo Waymo.

[Author Craig Fairman]

We've always been about safety.

[Bianna Golodriga]

No distracted driving, no drunk driving.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Whimo follows the rules of the road.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Listen to CNN's terms of service wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Adi Cornish.

[Author Craig Fairman]

I'm Ari Shapiro. And after years of working side by side, we're making it official. It's engagement party. It's engagement party. And we get to talk about what we're obsessed with, what we're engaged with, what we need to process. With a friend. I got to talk to the man who has basically dominated Broadway for the last half century, Andrew Lloyd Webber, ahead of the Tonys.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And our listener question. Our your question is coming from the Kara Swisher, tech journalist extraordinaire. But before we get to all that,

[Author Craig Fairman]

I need you to tell me why a particular story from reality TV has broken out of the reality TV timeline and infiltrated my social media feeds. Because I don't even watch this show.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Is it because your feed is just like all Cats, it looks like Broadway shows.

[Walter Isaacson]

We're gonna get to Cats.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Tell me about Summer House. What is going on? Why should care? Follow engagement party wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Now to US Politics. In a week that gave President Trump a win in the Senate, a loss in court and a birthday party to plan, lawmakers passed a $70 billion bill funding his immigration crackdown. But it nearly collapsed over a $1.8 billion Justice Department anti weaponization fund that critics call a slush fund for his allies. Meanwhile, a judge ordered Trump's name stripped from the Kennedy center as the White House pivots to the nation's 250th birthday, where Trump now plans to headline the festivities himself. Joining me now for more on all of this is senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes. Kristen, it's good to see you. So, yes, finally, that bill, that immigration bill that the president has long been pushing for, that Republicans have long been pushing for, finally crossed the finish line. But it was a hard, hard fought battle here that didn't necessarily need to be as difficult for the Republicans as the president and his administration seemed to make it at the last minute. Explain why.

[Kristen Holmes]

Well, look, we're into an entirely different period now, Bianna. In this administration, and in this term, you have an ongoing war in Iran. You have this $1.8 billion weaponization fund that even Republicans have given immense blowback back to. You have an administration that is deeply unpopular president who's deeply unpopular, and midterms right around the corner, and Republicans are trying to look out for themselves. What we saw at the beginning of his term was Republicans kind of blindly following President Trump without a lot. Without a lot of pushback. We have now entered into a completely different part of this term. Now, President Trump is going to come out of this with a win. This is $70 billion. It's going to go towards paying funding, ICE and Border Patrol through the end of President Trump's term, essentially making them immune from any other kind of government shutdown that might occur. They also got through this without having anyone put in writing that there was going to be no or they were going to kill that $1.8 billion weaponization fund that people don't like. But that's part of the hiccup here, because you had Republicans voting against that fund, trying to bring that amendment up. And it really goes to show you that they're in a very different place. And remember, there's still a lot that they want to get done before those midterms and before January. But talking to Republicans up on the Hill doesn't seem likely they're going to be able to actually push anything else through. Many of them speculating this was the last piece of major legislation Trump's going to get through before the midterms.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah, the president just can't seem to get this weaponization fund behind him, continuing to say that it was just a justified invalid and also causing a massive headache for Republicans by announcing his acting dni Pick someone with no national intelligence expertise, his mortgage adviser, Bill Pulte. Let me ask you about the upcoming 250th celebration, because it seems not even that can go without controversy from the White House. The president has been planning for big festivities and a lot of these entertainers pulling out last minute when they say that this is coming across now to them as something that's politicized and that's not how it was initially sold to them and detailed to them. Just give us a sense of where things stand now.

[Kristen Holmes]

Well, there are two different groups that are essentially battling right now over celebrating America's 250th anniversary. The one is the bipartisan commission called America 250 and the other is the Trump aligned group called Freedom 250. And Freedom 250 has made clear that they are backing Trump, that they are a political organization, and that has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And this concert, that's the first thing you're talking about, which has now turned into a rally that President Trump seems to be one of the only guests at. That was just part of what we're seeing as a consequence of President Trump's incredibly divisive politics. It is very clear to everybody across the country that President Trump is probably one of the most polarizing figures that we've ever had leading the country. But now it's even more clear as you're seeing, even these things that are supposed to be celebrations of America 250th anniversary that is even becoming political now.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Kristen Holmes reporting live from the White House for us. Thank you. Good to see you. Well, the United States is now just a month away from, as we noted, its 250th anniversary on July 4th. And White House plans for the celebration are still in flux after a number of star performers pulled out of a planned concert series. President Trump says he's going to be taking center stage at a D.C. rally on June 24. This is not the first time a big anniversary highlighted the country's contradictions. In a new book, America USA scholar Eddie Glaude Jr. Argues that these major milestones have never been simple. And instead they are moments to reckon with painful truths, particularly when it comes to race. Glad is a professor at Princeton University. Earlier this week, we spoke about his views on America at 250. Eddie Glaude, welcome to the program. Congratulations on the book. And it's coming as America is set to turn 250 this July 4th, a celebration that's already being marked by controversy as the date approach. You describe a current malaise in this country. What do you say is driving that malaise?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Well, first of all, it's just great to be in conversation with you. I think at the heart of it is this kind of divided soul that has defined the country since its founding. You know, W.E.B. du Bois wrote the classic book the Souls of black folk in 1903, and he introduced the concept of double consciousness, that black folks see themselves through the eyes of those who despise them. But what I argue in America, USA is that that Sense of double consciousness is actually a consequence of the double consciousness of the nation that America imagines itself at once as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic. And you can't hold those two commitments together without contradiction or without depositing a kind of madness at the heart of the country. So what we're experiencing in this moment, in this 250th year, is that division, that doubleness that has haunted the country since its beginnings.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah. And I want to stay with this, America's divided soul, because as you Note, you quote W.E.B. du Bois in the book Baldwin as well, this sort of self sense of twoness in the nation. You describe America as both a country founded on the idea to create equal at the same time, as you just said, a white republic. Frederick Douglass, though, who you also, quote, found inspiration in the founding, not only in its hypocrisy. Can both then be true?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Well, the principles aren't reducible to our practice. I think it's important for us to understand that the insights of the Declaration, the ideals of democracy themselves, can be tools, can be used in order to build the kind of society that we want to build. But we have to understand that there are those among us, like Vice President J.D. vance, who attacks the idea that America is a creedal nation because he wants to root the country in blood and soil. And so part of what we have to do is to give voice, like Douglas did, right. To the power of those principles and ideals. But he does so in the face of this ongoing pressure, this ongoing insistence that we are a white nation. So he says, In 1875, on the eve of the centennial celebration, he says, we are faced with the apostles of forgetfulness, those people who believe that slavery didn't matter and so who also believe that the country must be a white republic. So it comes back and forth. It's this cycle.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah. And you mentioned 1875. Much of the book is focused on earlier anniversaries. The centennial in 1876, obviously, 1926, the bicentennial in 1976. You write that these celebrations, quote, are often moments to turn a blind eye to the evils of the past and the present, to suppress the fact of America's divided soul. So what are those earlier anniversaries and celebrations tell us about America not just from its past, but its present and its future.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Yeah. So we're in this 250th, and, you know, you see the executive order from President Trump around restoring truth and sanity to American history. You hear Vice President Vance invoking blood and soil as the basis of US sovereignty and cohesion. Well, what I want to suggest is that these moments, this attempt to kind of redact American history has echoes in the past. And so 1876, this is after the carnage of the Civil War. 600,000 left dead on land and sea, and the country disremembers. It tells a story of itself that's rooted in American promise and its business acumen. But the horrors of slavery left aside, Frederick Douglass invited to be on the dais, initially denied entree to the exposition because he's a black man. Philadelphia police officer couldn't believe that an N word could be on the dais, but he couldn't speak. 1926. 1926 is the decade of the Klan. It was initially approved that the Klan could hold its annual convocation, its annual convention on the grounds of the convention and annual exposition that was celebrating the nation. So they were going to celebrate the flag and burn a cross at the same time. 1976, the conflict, the skepticism coming out of Vietnam, Watergate, black power movement, women's liberation movement. And then you get the anti bussing movement with that iconic image in Boston of a young white teenager attacking a black Yale trained lawyer with the American flag. In each of these milestone anniversaries, the country has to tell a story of itself, of its founding and its contradictions are in full view. And here we are in the 250th and the same thing is happening. History might not repeat itself, but as someone once said, maybe Twain. It damn sure rhymes.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Yeah, that was a famous line from Twain. Isn't there a version of this story, though, that's about hard won progress along the way, not just a divided soul that never heals. So many point to, yes, the challenges, the setbacks, but also the victories and most recently, the election of the first black president.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Yeah, we like to tell ourselves that story, that we're always already on the road to a more perfect union. And in some ways, it works as a kind of moral holiday. It allows us to forgive ourselves of our sins. It deepens our investment in the promise of America. And no one is denying the fact of progress. But what we do know is this, is that at every moment when there's progress, there's a reassertion of the idea that the country belongs only to certain folk. Just think about it. Six years ago, we were in the midst of a racial reckoning, grappling with the fact that the nation witnessed George Floyd's murder. And now look at where we are now. The supreme Court gutting the Voting Rights Act. We see the Supreme Court allowing Alabama to use old maps that were determined by that same court to be racially discriminatory dei. We see the assault on all sorts of the foundations of American democracy. So we appeal to progress in order to absolve ourselves of our sins. And what we need to do is to confront who we are so that we can actually imagine a better way of being together as Americans.

[Bianna Golodriga]

What would a meaningful 250th celebration look

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

like to, you know, what I do know is this. What we're going to experience come July 4th is they're going to tell a story about the country that denies our past. They're going to celebrate this myth and illusion. I think what a meaningful celebration of July 4th would involve is a rejection of that storybook version that celebrates what I take to be a white nationalist project and instead a full expression, a full throated expression of the vast diversity of this nation. I think we need to counter the story that will be told by really exposing and celebrating right who we really are. And that is to bring the full force of, of the rich tapestry, the mosaic that is this country. And if we do that, if we do that, we will provide, I think, a more meaningful and powerful counter to those who are trying to hijack the nation's promise.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And at the top, I mentioned that this upcoming anniversary is already being marked by controversy. And one of the reasons is because there are two national groups overseeing the celebration of America America's 250th. There's America 250. That is a bipartisan group that was established by Congress back in 2016. And then there's Freedom250. It is being run by the Trump administration. And that is what's considered the controversial angle here. A major concert in Washington seems to be falling apart. Marquee performers have been backing out because they say they view this concert now as a partisan event. And that is not what they signed up for. Here's how President Trump announced his vision for the anniversary year in a kickoff back in Iowa on July 3rd in 2025.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

This incredible national resurgence is happening just

[Walter Isaacson]

in time for one of the biggest events in the history of our country. Exactly one year from tomorrow, we will celebrate the 250th anniversary of America's founding with a birthday party the likes of which you have never seen before.

[Bianna Golodriga]

So what is the controversy, Eddie, around Trump's version of Freedom 250? What does that say to you about how they are likely his administration and the president are likely to mark this anniversary?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Well, I think there is this ongoing effort to yoke the story of the country to Donald Trump's ideology, to his presidency. I think these folk want to make the country's birthday indistinguishable from Donald Trump's ascendants and presidency. So he thinks we've entered the golden age of America with his presidency, and he's going to, in so many ways, try to make that clear through ritual, through celebration and the like. So we're going to have the Great American Fair, which has turned out to be a disaster. We're going to have a UFC fight. Can you imagine a UFC fight where manly men are going to fight and bludgeon each other? We're going to see all of this stuff, really, that's kind of kitschy. That will celebrate that vision of the country, that version of the country. And I think at the end of the day, the American people must say no to it all. We must reject it, because Donald Trump is really trying to hijack the very idea of America. And some are actually falling for that carnival barker as he tries to do so.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Some may, in just looking at the poll numbers, appears there's data to back up, say that the president has squandered some of the historic support that he was able to garner, in particular from men in 2025. Non white men, African American, male voters, Hispanic voters. Looking back now, what was it, in your view, that appealed to them at that point during the campaign because he was a known quantity to the country?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Well, you know, I think it's a combination of things. I've said that the divided soul of the nation has haunted this place. Many people were responding to the idea of a woman, a woman of color as the potential president of the United States. I think there are those who are genuinely dissatisfied with the country. They are losing ground. They don't feel any sense of possibility. There's a deep sense of melancholia and loneliness that soaks the country. I think that was an aspect of it. You know, Donald Trump was also lying through his teeth. We have to say that explicitly. He was lying through his teeth about his own populist commitments, as he's now revealed over and over again as the billionaires and the oligarchs rob the nation's coffers right in front of our eyes. And the corruption overwhelms any notion of good governance. So I think people were sold a bill of goods. But at the heart of it, I think, is this toxic brew of greed, selfishness, and Hatred. That brew has soured the belly of the country. And unless we name it for what it is, we can't get beyond it.

[Bianna Golodriga]

It seems to me black voters in particular, over the last, most recent, or I would even say 50, 60 years, have for the most part, supported Democratic candidates. And I'm wondering, as you reflect back through history, when you look at some of Those black leaders, W.E.B. du Bois, James Baldwin, Frederick Douglass, would they feel that the Democratic Party today is serving the needs as effectively as it can and should for the country, but in particular for African Americans?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

You know, I can't speak for those giants. I can only speak from the lessons I've learned from them. And what we can say, I think, with a sense of certainty, is that the political system of the United States has failed us. Here we are given all of their sacrifices, and we find ourselves in the midst of a second redemption, a second lost cause. Here we are in this moment, whether it's the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. What we find, where we find ourselves as a community is that folk are trying to disenfranchise us, diminish our power, deny us access to schools. Right. Deny us access to wealth, really, in so many ways, reduce us to playing minor bit parts in the country, in the country's story. So it seems to me the evidence is clear that it's not just simply the Democratic Party that has failed us. Right. In so many ways.

[Bianna Golodriga]

The nation has each chapter of your book. Before each chapter, Eddie, there is a musical notation, an original score that was written by composer Joel Thompson as a counterpoint to the text that you write. Let's listen to an exit her. It's a beautiful thing to include. And I'm just wondering, what does the music say that your words don't? And why include it?

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

You know, it's an homage to Du Bois, of course. The Souls of Black Folk, which begins every chapter with bars of music of slave spirituals. For me, it captures this vexing relationship to the country. It begins with a blues sonority and ends with this prayer. But the prayer ends with ambivalence as well. So musically, Joel Thompson has offered a kind of musical score to the argument of the book, this incredibly complicated journey that complicates the very way in which we orient ourselves to this nation. How do we love people on the ground, close to the ground, in light of the hatreds to that seemed to overwhelm. And so I am so grateful that Joel responded. And the argument in the music is just overwhelming to me. So I hope everyone has an opportunity to listen to the audiobook because it's just beautiful.

[Bianna Golodriga]

It's really emblematic of the power of music throughout our history. Eddie Glaud, always great to have you on. Thank you so much for taking the time. The book America How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. Good to see you. Thank you.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Good to see you. Thank you so much.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And after the break, it's one of the most fabled expeditions in US History. Author Craig Fireman joins Walter Isaacson to explain how his new book reframes the well known story of Lewis and Clark, Now astronauts in canoes. That's how the legendary exploring team of Lewis and Clark has been described. The pair adventured into American territories not yet mapped to provide details about the culture and geography of the land as the United States expanded. While the expedition is one of the country's most renowned tales, in a new book, author Craig Fairman strives to retell the narrative from a previously obscured perspective. He joins Walter Isaacson to discuss the new information uncovered from centuries old archives.

[Walter Isaacson]

Thank you. Bianna and Craig Fairman, welcome to the show.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Walter Isaacson]

So you got this new book, this Vast Enterprise, which is about the Lewis and Clark expedition. Let me start by just asking, why did you decide to write this?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, I wanted to write an adventure story. And I don't think there's a better adventure story in American history than Lewis and Clark. Of course, the flip side of this is that there have been a lot of good books written about them. So what I did at the start was I went back to their journals. They left more than a million words behind, which as a historian you couldn't ask for better primary sources than that. And when I read those journals, I kept noticing these human details that I felt like other accounts had overlooked. Human details about Lewis and Clark, but also about Sacagawea or York, the black man who Clark enslaved and who was there for every one of those 8,000 miles they traveled. And so I tried, I tried to write a book that told the adventure story but also captured the humanity along the way. And the journals were really the best resource I had for that. Although I did find some new stuff in the archives too.

[Walter Isaacson]

You talk about all the characters and I love the way you structure the book, which is each chapter tends to be the viewpoint of a particular character as opposed to just doing it through Lewis and Clark. Why'd you do that?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, I think that contributed to wanting to tell this story in a new way. It wasn't just about finding new Details. It was telling the story differently because there have been great biographies written about Meriwether Lewis, but as writers, we can sort of choose who gets biographical treatment. And so although I wanted you to feel like you were in the canoe with Lewis and seeing things from his point of view, I also wanted you to feel like you were in the canoe with John Ordway, who was a working class soldier who did a lot of the hard work that the captains weren't doing because they had other jobs. And so it just felt like the best way to make this story work and to make this story feel human was to use that biographical lens, but then move it around so we get, you know, Lewis's point of view, but we also get Ordway's or Sacagawea's. It just made the story feel fresh and more fun to me.

[Walter Isaacson]

But did you have primary sources or good material on some of these lesser known characters?

[Author Craig Fairman]

What I had is those journals, like I said, a million words there. So there are a surprising number of those words about York or about some of the native leaders that Lewis and Clark met with. It's just a matter of what do you pay attention to? So one detail that really stood out to me was early on, when they were still in St. Louis before they'd left. Clark just has one sentence where he says, york commenced sawing with a whipsaw. And that's sort of a throwaway line unless you take the time to really examine it. What's a whipsaw? Well, that's how you turn logs into planks. And planks were really important to them in this time period because winter's closing in, it's snowing, it's sleeting, they have to get roofs on their forts to be able to make it through the winter. And so they chose York, even though whipsaw is a very difficult tool to use. And from that one detail, you can sort of understand how skilled York was and how he was trying to find his place in this sort of rowdy group of explorers. So the primary sources were often the ones that have always been there. It's just reading them differently and noticing all the human beings that are documented by the captains.

[Walter Isaacson]

So tell me more about York, because by the end of your account, he's even getting to be a voting member of the expedition, right?

[Author Craig Fairman]

That's right. His arc is both inspiring and heartbreaking in the way that American history sometimes is, because from the start, the captains empowered him to do a lot of stuff. He carried a rifle. He was the fifth named person in the journals to bring down a buffalo. And he was also a really good swimmer, which might seem like not that important of a detail, but a lot of the men on this expedition, even though it was a river mission, could not swim. So I found a new letter from Clark where Clark talked about how good York was in working the boats. And that sort of helped me understand that York was one of the essential people when they were facing whitewater rapids especially.

[Walter Isaacson]

Tell me about his background. We don't quite know. Where does he come from? Is he enslaved?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Yeah. Yeah, he was. He was an enslaved person, and he was what was called a body servant. So he grew up alongside Clark. And his job was sort of making Clark's life easy and comfortable. So he would, you know, pack his saddlebags or lay out his clothes. But that was his life before the expedition. During the expedition, he was able to do those other things. Get the rifle, face the rapids. And so he was really able to establish himself. And although the other soldiers didn't like him at first, there's plenty of proof in the journals of that. By the end of the expedition, they had sort of become a team. And they were all realizing that they were working together and doing something great together.

[Walter Isaacson]

Tell me about that moment where he's allowed to vote on what the expedition's gonna do.

[Author Craig Fairman]

It's such a powerful moment. And I think what makes it even more powerful is that I was able to see that there had been previous votes that Lewis and Clark, as leaders, made a choice to really embrace a democratic ethos. They wanted to empower the men and bring the men close. So they did that multiple times during the expedition. But York didn't get a say. It was only on their last winter when they were at the mouth of the Columbia R near the Pacific Ocean. This time they included York in the vote. And so in that arc where he doesn't get a vote but then he does, you can see that he was able to sort of change the perception of him and he was able to make some choices for himself.

[Walter Isaacson]

The reason I ask about that, and maybe I'm overreading this, is that that arc you talk about where he finally gets to vote, he finally gets included in the narrative. That's also the arc of American history around that time, right?

[Author Craig Fairman]

I think that's true. It would take a while for it to apply to other people beyond just York. I mean, one thing that's interesting about the expedition is it was sort of a miniature society. Once they got far away from American society, they had to make their own rules and form their own bonds. And so in that system, York was able to do more and to be respected more. Of course, the tragic part of it is that once they make it back to America, York says to Clark, and we know this from one of Clark letters, York says, because of my immense services, I think I've earned my freedom. Clark denies that request. And the end of York's life, unfortunately, is tragic.

[Walter Isaacson]

Why?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, because Clark wouldn't free him. And then Clark moved to St. Louis. Clark got a very important government position that he would hold under five different presidents, where in St. Louis, he was negotiating treaties and acquiring land. And so because he and York had this close bond, he made York come with him. York's wife was still back in Kentucky, where York and Clark had been living previously. And so York said, I think I've earned my freedom. And I went back and checked the math here. How much did the privates earn on this expedition? How much would it cost for somebody like York to buy his freedom? The math checks out. York was right. He had earned his freedom, but it was still Clark's decision, and Clark decided not to grant it.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, but what I don't quite understand, even from reading the part of it, because I kind of like Clark by the end of the book.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Sure.

[Walter Isaacson]

Tell me what was going through Clark's head when he says, no, I'm not gonna free this slave?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, I would say I like Clark too. And we don't have to pick just one way to feel about Clark. We can admire how he took care of his soldiers while feeling real disdain for how he treated York. But I think one thing that's interesting about the journals is that there aren't just details about York. There are details about how Clark saw York. And you can see Thomas Jefferson in Notes on the State of Virginia would write about how owning a slave would warp the person who owned the slave. And I feel like Clark's journals are sort of the example that bear out Jefferson's theory that Clark was very possessive of York. That when York would excel, Clark would get weirdly jealous, even though he was still York's owner. So I think it's really hard for us from our vantage to understand the process of slavery and what it did to people on both sides of this toxic equation. I think Clark was just jealous and didn't want York to have that autonomy, even though York believed he had earned it.

[Walter Isaacson]

One thing I learned from your book, because I like the history of technology and economic factors, is that land is really important. That's A theme of your book and explain how that weaves into the book.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, it's so important. And one thing that was fun about those rotating perspectives is I could show how land looked a little bit different to everybody else. To somebody like Lewis or Clark, land is an imperial object. They're thinking, where's America gonna go next? But the regular soldiers who were going along, to them, land was just what they didn't have. They wanted to be farmers, they wanted to be wealthy. They didn't come from Lewis and Clark's background. So when they saw this beautiful land that they were passing, it looked differently. And of course, the native people who lived there and who loved the land, them. They saw the land differently as well. So I was really. By focusing on land, I found all these small moments in the journals that, again, they were always there for people to notice. It just. It matters what lens you bring to understand it.

[Walter Isaacson]

You refer to it or you say that the perception of this is that there are astronauts in canoes. Beautiful metaphor. Especially now that we're going back to space. Tell me how that fits.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, what's so fun about this is that Lewis and Clark were kind of Artemis 2 of their time in many ways. It's not just that they were going somewhere where people didn't know what exactly they were going to find. It's that the whole country was obsessed with this. And so I tried to really track this closely. Lewis and Clark were viral news. And so one of my favorite soldiers that I write about is a guy named John Ordway who lived in New Hampshire. So I went back and read all the old New Hampshire newspapers to see how often Lewis and Clark were showing up in these newspapers thousands of miles away. Because John Ordway's family would have been reading those newspapers, too. So in the same way we were all obsessed with Artemis 2. And looking at those pictures on social media, John Ordway's family and people all around America were tracking this expedition. At a certain point, they kind of went radio silent. They went on the other side of the moon in the 1804 version. But then they came back and had such a wonderful story to tell.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, as school kids, when we all were fascinated by this expedition, the character we learned about was Sacajawea, the Native American guy. We think of her as a sort of a passive guide. In your book, you portray her as much more of a strategist. Would the expedition have succeeded as well without her?

[Author Craig Fairman]

I don't think it would have, because she was essential at multiple points. She was Helping them gather plants. Of course, she was helping them notice landmarks. That's kind of the school version. But she was also a very valuable translator. And she was somebody that Lewis used when he met the Shoshone for the first time. And the Shoshone were thinking about not sticking around. Lewis needed the Shoshone because they had horses who were going to help them get through the Rocky Mountains. And so Louis said, sacagawea, we have a Shoshone woman coming. It's worth sticking around to see her. But the other thing I would say is that Sacagawea wasn't just important for the expedition. She was important for the arc of her own life because she'd had a very difficult life. One thing I try to do in my book is emphasize that she was a slave. She was somebody who was owned by a white trader. She was beaten, she was impregnated by him. All when she was 13, 14 years old. It's a really dark story, but once she met Lewis and Clark, she realized that they protected Native women, that they looked out for Native women. And so every time she was being a tour guide or finding plants, she was sort of saying to Lewis and Clark, you know, I can help you. Can you help me? And they did help her. They worked together. They got her back to the Shoshone. Sacagawea was able to see the Pacific Ocean, too.

[Walter Isaacson]

One of the great scenes is her reunion during the trip with her brother. Came await. I think it is. And it's a moving scene in the book. Let me read what you write. You say Sacagawea began to run and when she reached him, they embraced. She began to cry quietly at first and then not until she was sobbing. Why was she crying?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, she was removed from her people in very brutal circumstances. They were hunting for buffalo on the plains. But the Shoshone did not have muskets the way other nations did. So raiders from another nation captured her and some of her family ran away and escaped. But as a 13, 14 year old, she didn't really know. Was my family killed during this raid? Did my family escape? All she knew was that she had been kidnapped and enslaved and now had to live hundreds of miles away. So when she made it back to meet the Shoshone, a small detail in the journals as Lewis and Clark note that the Shoshone people had their hair cut very short, which was a traditional sign of mourning. So Sacagawea shows up and is excited. She says, I made it back to my people. But she sees these short haircuts and we can only imagine what must have been going through her mind. Who's dead? Is my family dead? Did my family die during that raid? It's just an overwhelming amount of uncertainty. So then for her to finally find her brother, but also to see that his hair is cut short, that that means, you know, possibly her parents have died in this. She just, in that moment, sort of had to confront both wonderful news, my brother is alive, but also heartbreaking news, other people might not be alive. It's just a lot for anybody to handle. And, you know, she had amazing strength as a human being.

[Walter Isaacson]

Could she have, at that point left the expedition, returned to her people? And why didn't she do so?

[Author Craig Fairman]

I believe she could have because Lewis and Clark needed those horses so badly. Without those horses, the expedition never would have made it to the Pacific Ocean. So I think if her brother had said to Lewis and Clark, you don't get the horses unless my sister stays with us. I think Lewis and Clark would have made that trade and figured out a way to keep Charbonneau happy later. But she didn't want that. Now, why did she not want that? I don't have an answer for that because she didn't keep the journals. But I can make some inferences. And I know that the Shoshone people often talked about the ocean. They would sometimes call it the great Stinking Lake. So given Sacagawea's curiosity and resilience that she has showed throughout her life, I wonder if maybe she just wanted to see the ocean, that we should think of her as an explorer too.

[Walter Isaacson]

In about a month, we're going to celebrate our 250th anniversary. Tell me, out of this book, what inspiration do you think we should take from the Discovery Corps?

[Author Craig Fairman]

Well, I think Lewis and Clark is actually one of our best stories to think about America's founding. Even though they set out about three decades after 1776, that gap is instructive because America in 1776 didn't have the power or ambition to do this big act of foreign policy. It took decades, and it took a dreamer like Jefferson to be able to do that. What Lewis and Clark were able to do, though, is that they were able to offer the best parts of America. The confidence, the swagger, the orientation towards the future, but also some of the downsides of America where they overstepped or maybe they tried to interfere in foreign politics that they didn't quite understand. I think the thing that inspires me the most about Lewis and Clark, though, is that they tried they gave it their best shot. They tried to do something ambitious, just like those people in Artemis 2. And they were able to come back with an amazing story that we as Americans today still love.

[Walter Isaacson]

They were our astronauts in canoes. Thank you so much for joining us, Craig.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Really appreciate it.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And finally, who doesn't love an unexpected refund? It seems even the Holy Father does. This week, Pope Leo got a surprise $8.65. He was handed a certificate to claim it by the Illinois state treasurer in person at the Vatican. The state traced the money to a PayPal account the pontiff had left behind in the US so, among all the guidance issued by the pope, add this, a papal nudge to go and check your PayPal. All right, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching and goodbye. From New York,

[Author Craig Fairman]

This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app.

[Historian Eddie Glaude Jr.]

Be prepared for anything with comprehensive coverage

[Author Craig Fairman]

from real experts like me. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today. Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast, All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. As Ken Burns said on an earlier podcast, the half life of grief is endless. Mariska Hargitay knows that very well. Jane Mansfield was killed in a car crash in 1967. Mariska was in the car with her. After decades spent coming to terms with her past and wanting to learn more about the mother she doesn't remember, Mariska has made a remarkable documentary called My Mom Jane.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Our vulnerability is our greatest strength and our greatest connector. And so in telling the story, I don't feel vulnerable. I feel free. We all have a story, and you

[Christiane Amanpour]

never know what somebody else carries.

[Author Craig Fairman]

Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.