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- [00:00]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a.
- [00:02]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
Very happy half off holiday because right.
- [00:05]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Now Mint Mobile is offering you the.
- [00:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Gift of 50% off unlimited.
- [00:09]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.
- [00:13]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means half day.
- [00:20]
Julianne Smith
Yeah.
- [00:20]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch.
- [00:23]
Julianne Smith
Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow. 135 gigabytes of network busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
- [00:34]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:39]
Leader of Russia because he really doesn't want finish this war. And the Kremlin accuses Europe of scuttling a pro Russia peace plan. But as predicted, nothing was achieved between Putin and Trump's closest envoys after marathon talks in Moscow. Former U.S. ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith joins us then.
- [01:02]
Senator Bill Cassidy
My brother is missing.
- [01:03]
Julianne Smith
Anyone who saw my cousin went missing yesterday in Zikim.
- [01:07]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Ahab Adel Mansour, 16 years old, went missing in the Zikim area.
- [01:12]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Bulldozed corpses and unmarked graves. The Palestinians who went missing while trying to get aid at the Israel Gaza border. Jeremy diamond investigates.
- [01:21]
Ehud Olmert
And there are atrocities committed every day by Jews, which is shameful and unbearable and as I said, unforgivable.
- [01:30]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Settler violence on the rise again in the West Bank. Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmet joins me to share a stark warning.
- [01:38]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Plus, my life has been dedicated to making sure that all Americans have access to adequate health care.
- [01:44]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Healthcare under attack in America. Republican Senator and qualified Dr. Bill Cassidy talks to Walter Isaacson about the threat to crucial benefits and and his proposal to save them.
- [02:17]
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. High stakes, low results in Moscow, despite at least five hours of talks between the Russian President Vladimir Vladimir Putin and the United States, represented by President Trump's most trusted negotiators, his special envoy, Steve Witkoff and his own son in law, Jared Kushner. They failed to reach an agreement for ending the war in Ukraine. The Kremlin says the work will continue, but key sticking points remain. With Kyiv rejecting Moscow's maximalist demands to cede territory in eastern Ukraine that Russia hasn't even conquered and to severely limit Ukraine's sovereignty. Both President Zelensky and NATO officials say that Putin shows no sign of making, quote, meaningful concessions to end the war. NATO foreign ministers met today in Brussels. But for the first time since 1999, the United States Secretary of state did not attend, a sign of the widening gap between America and Europe, perhaps. Julianne Smith was ambassador to NATO under President Biden, including of course, during Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. And she's joining me now from washing. Ambassador Smith, welcome back to our program.
- [03:27]
Julianne Smith
Thank you.
- [03:28]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So can I just start with asking you the TODAY story and that is that the Secretary of State didn't turn up to this NATO meeting. A what do you make of that and how important was this NATO meeting?
- [03:42]
Julianne Smith
Well, look, NATO foreign ministers come together about twice a year for these very high level and important meetings. And essentially for almost four years the chief topic at these meetings when foreign gather has been Ukraine. And no doubt the allies were hoping today that they would have a chance to sit down with Secretary of State Marco Rubio and get his update on where we are. After the meeting in Moscow yesterday, Rubio opted not to join the foreign ministers meeting. Instead he sent his deputy, this is extraordinarily uncommon for the United States to do so. And they were peppering him, I suspect, with a lot of questions about where things stand in light of what happened yesterday.
- [04:28]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So here's from the NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutter. This is a quote from his press conference after the NATO meeting. He says we're ready and willing to do what it takes to protect our 1 billion people and secure our territory. This is after this from Russia, from Putin. Just take a listen to this.
- [04:49]
Senator Bill Cassidy
We're not planning to go to war with Europe. I have already spoken about this a hundred times. But if Europe suddenly wants to go to war with us and starts, we're ready right now.
- [05:02]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So you know, there are two things going on here. There's Russia versus Ukraine and then there's Russia versus Europe. Do you believe Putin when he says we never want to go to war with Europe, but if it happens, we'll be ready?
- [05:15]
Julianne Smith
Well, I found that statement to be disturbing. It seemed to be a very thinly veiled threat that Russia is at the ready and possibly willing to try and touch NATO territory. What we do know is that Russia has spent years, decades trying very hard to erode allies commitment and faith in NATO's Article 5 An attack on one is an attack on all. We've seen a number of sabotage events in recent years. We've seen incidents where drones have flown into Polish airspace. We had the incident with Russian jets flying over Estonia. These are classic plays on the part of the Russian playbook. They are designed to divide the alliance to chip away at the unity that exists inside the NATO alliance and to create uncertainty and insecurity across the entire European continent. And so when I hear the statement that Putin made yesterday, in some ways it's not altogether surprising, but it should worry Europe quite a bit in terms of how Russia is positioning itself to possibly touch or invade or intervene in NATO territory, which I hope never happens. But I don't like the sound of what we heard yet yesterday from Putin.
- [06:36]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
And today from Rutted when he said we'll defend our 1 billion people. I mean, you know, it's something to think that there's that many people in NATO. But nonetheless, do you think NATO has the wherewithal and Europe particularly to actually confront or stave off any kind of Russian misadventure inside Europe?
- [06:57]
Julianne Smith
I do think the NATO alliance has what it takes to defend NATO territory against a Russian conventional intervention of some kind on NATO territory. I do believe that cannot be done without the assistance of the United States. Europe is, as you well know, investing eye watering sums of resources in their own defense right now. And within the next decade, Europe is going to look entirely different in terms of the capabilities it has to defend itself. But right now, here at the end of 2025, the alliance is still very much a transatlantic alliance, a project where America and Europe and Canada can come together to defend NATO territory. And I liked what happened in the NATO summit this past summer. President Trump seemed quite confident and upbeat about the NATO alliance. But some of what we're seeing and hearing, for example, Marco Rubio skipping the Foreign Minister's meeting, do make one ask, will this administration continue to support the alliance through and through and remain an active member of this important alliance?
- [08:09]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So obviously critical to that is what the administration does to make Putin understand that this war is unwinnable on the battlefield and that there needs to be serious negotiations. So let's just ask for your analysis on what you saw happen in Russia. So, sixth time, apparently, that Witkoff has traveled to Moscow to talk to Putin. They didn't get anywhere. You can tell by the language, none from them personally, the negotiators. Rubio himself said, you know, kind of productive, but a lot more work to be done. Russia saying similar, but willing to keep talking, but also Moscow and Putin keeping Witkoff and Kushner waiting for many hours. Apparently a grueling six hour trip around the Kremlin they were subjected to, then another five hours of talk.
- [08:56]
That's obfuscation at a very high level, right? That's playing power games. What is he trying to get out of this? Putin?
- [09:04]
Julianne Smith
Well, Putin is playing for time. And we have seen many instances throughout the past, say, nine, ten months where Putin makes some very small gestures towards moving, moving towards peace. But at the end of the day, we don't see evidence that he's really ready to make any concessions. So in my book, what we saw yesterday in Moscow was just another chapter where Putin smiles for the cameras. He says a few sentences that one could interpret as encouraging, but then what you hear is the bottom line. And the bottom line is that Russia is nowhere closer to reaching some sort of agreement. Russia is not prepared to make real concessions, and the middle ground that we really need, Ukraine and Russia right now, seems further away than ever before. So I was discouraged by what happened. I would also like to see other members of the Trump administration engage Russia directly. While Jared Kushner and Steve Wykoff are capable in their own right, I don't think they have the depth of experience to fully appreciate how President Putin plans out these meetings, how he executes these meetings, and he looks for ways to manipulate his friends across the table. And so I'd like to see someone sitting at that table that has years of experience, preferably decades, in dealing with Putin and the folks around him. This is serious business, and you need people who are familiar with the classic Russian plays, like leaving people to wait for many hours at the table, not.
- [10:48]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
To mention the Russian plays about what's happening on the ground or not, while it can, you know, it insists that it's doing well on the battlefield. And, of course, they keep making all these claims. It's not doing as well as it should, given how it outnumbers Ukrainians and how it, you know, outguns them and all the rest of it? So do you agree, like most, that a ceasefire is at least the very beginning of any kind of basis for peace negotiations, and Putin doesn't even agree to that. What do you think it'll take to get him at least to commit to the basics, which is a ceasefire?
- [11:24]
Julianne Smith
I do think a ceasefire is where we have to start. That has to be central to anything moving forward. But the fact that we continue to hear from Putin that he doesn't have any interest in a ceasefire, leads me to believe that some sort of negotiated outcome here is months and hopefully not years away. But what we need to see on the part of the United States right now is pressure, pressure on Moscow. I feel that the Ukrainians have come a long way. We've seen movement on their red lines and their willingness to put forward some real concrete concessions. What we haven't seen is that type of indication from the other side, from Moscow. And I liked what I saw the administration do, the Trump administration do just a couple of weeks ago. And that was to put the sanctions on Rosneft and Lukoil. That was an important step of applying pressure on Moscow. But there's a lot more we could be doing. We could also deliver the Tomahawks to Ukraine. And I believe that would help Putin focus. I think it would alter his calculus, and I think he would be willing to come to the table with a different set of demands if he understood that the US Was prepared both to pressure Moscow and to continue supporting Ukraine throughout this series of negotiations.
- [12:49]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So that's a really important point you make. On the one hand, Trump did put those sanctions on, as you said, on the very important oil, you know, organizations. But on the other hand, you know, he was going to do the Tomahawks. Zelensky was there, he was told, and we've seen that through these leaked conversations to talk to Trump before Zelenskyy gets there. I mean, the American negotiators suggested, apparently, according to all these leaked transcripts with Russian aides, that Putin should talk to the boss first.
- [13:19]
Ehud Olmert
And.
- [13:19]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
And boom, no more talk of Tomahawks. So, again.
- [13:25]
At what point does one get a sort of a unified American position and a unified American European position?
- [13:35]
Julianne Smith
This has been the challenge since January of this year when the Trump administration came into office. It has been very difficult to determine what the actual position of the administration is when it comes to Ukraine. There have been times when it. It appears that the president has been deeply frustrated with President Putin, and he seemed ready at a number of moments throughout the last 10 months to turn the screws on Moscow and really push Putin to the negotiating table, pushing him to be more flexible. Other times, he has called Ukraine not the victim, but the aggressor. And he has taken various positions that has made it appear that he does not, in fact, support Ukraine in this moment as it defends its territory against Russian unprovoked aggression. So navigating this has been not only difficult for our friends in Ukraine, and no doubt the Russians have a few questions themselves, but what has been equally challenging has been our European allies trying to navigate the ups and downs of the US Position. They are frustrated.
- [14:46]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So you were, as I said, NATO ambassador for the United States during the Biden administration and in 2022 during Russia's full scale invas obviously, Biden rallied, NATO, sent weapons and things, but you know that there's plenty of complaints that it didn't happen soon enough and the big, strong weapons that they needed weren't, you know, there soon enough. And there were moments when Ukraine was on the front foot and perhaps could have pushed Russia back or forced them to the negotiating table. Do you have any reflections on your period there and maybe opportunities missed and lost at that time?
- [15:21]
Julianne Smith
I'm very proud of the record that the Biden administration has in supporting Ukraine and grateful to the president and those around him that were able to rally over 50 countries to come to the support of Ukraine. I think our position was not cloudy throughout those three years. It was crystal clear and allies knew what to expect of us. And Ukraine knew that they could rely on the United States. Of course, in hindsight, there are moments where we all look back and we question whether or not on a particular month some capability could have been delivered faster. I think all of us that served in the Biden administration are willing to sit with some of the choices we made. But again, at the end of the day, I think we're very proud of the way in which we were able to support a country in crisis. And we all want to see an end to this war. We just wish the current administration would apply the necessary pressure on Moscow to get it done.
- [16:19]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Ambassador Julianne Smith, thank you very much for being with us and stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.
- [16:33]
We turn now to Gaza, where a few months into the ceasefire, Palestinians are returning home, trying to restart their lives amid the rubble and the ruins of war. And families are searching for loved ones who went missing while they were desperately trying to receive food aid at the height of the war. Now a new investigation based on video analysis, satellite imagery and Israeli whistleblower accounts points to the Israeli military bulldozing some of the bodies of some of the Palestinians near a crossing in northern Gaza. IDF sources also indicate a broader pattern of their soldiers mishandling bodies in ways that could amount to war crimes. Correspondent Jeremy diamond has this investigation.
- [17:18]
Senator Bill Cassidy
My brother is missing.
- [17:19]
Julianne Smith
Anyone who saw my cousin went missing yesterday in Zakim.
- [17:22]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Ahab Adel Mansoor, 16 years old, went missing in the Zakim area.
- [17:27]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
My son went missing while going to the aid area in Zakim on Sunday.
- [17:31]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
Messages from desperate families all searching for loved ones who went out to seek aid and never came back. 23 year old Amar Wadi was one of them, last seen in June going to the Zakim crossing in northern Gaza where United nations food trucks entered. His mother is still desperate for answers.
- [18:02]
Wadi's fate is still unknown, but A CNN investigation based on video, satellite imagery and eyewitness accounts points to the Israeli military bulldozing the bodies of some of those killed near the Zikim crossing. IDF whistleblowers who spoke to CNN also point to a broader pattern of the Israeli military mishandling bodies in ways that could amount to war crimes.
- [18:31]
Collecting humanitarian aid became a deadly reality in Gaza over the summer. Before the ceasefire took effect.
- [18:41]
More than 2,000 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire while trying to get aid, according to the World Health Organization.
- [18:50]
The Israeli military has acknowledged firing toward these crowds, but said it does not intentionally fire at civilians. Hundreds, some dead, others still clinging on to life, were hauled away amid the mayhem, including here near the Zakim crossing.
- [19:09]
But amid the clattering of gunfire, others were left behind.
- [19:18]
Six aid truck drivers told CNN they saw dozens of bodies near the Zakim crossing. One shared these photos showing partially buried remains surrounded by aid boxes. Some said they witnessed Israeli military bulldozers burying bodies. They've asked us to conceal their identities, fearing retribution from Israeli authorities. There are bodies everywhere, decomposed, skeletal remains, one truck driver told cnn. Some are covered with dirt because the army cannot tolerate the smell of decomposing bodies, said another. I watched Israeli bulldozers bury the dead, said a third.
- [20:00]
This video appears to show the aftermath of Israel's bulldozing. Alongside a crushed, overturned truck, partially covered bodies of several Palestinians jut out from the earth. A paramedic at the scene said rescue workers managed to haul away 15 dead Palestinians with the ambulance full. Some bodies had to be left behind. CNN geolocated the video to this location near the Zakim crossing. You can see the overturned truck here, alongside bulldozed roads and track marks left by heavy machinery or armored vehicles. These are the roads where crowds of starving Palestinians swarmed aid trucks on a near daily basis and where they were fired upon and at times killed by Israeli gunfire. We geolocated multiple videos of people being shot and killed to these bulldozed areas, the same areas where Palestinians said some bodies were left behind in the chaos on August 9, 31 hours after crowds are seen here, evidence of fresh bulldozing appears in the exact same location. This video shows just how close Israeli forces, including this D9 bulldozer, were to those crowds.
- [21:21]
The soldiers came in front of us, eyes to eyes, and the quadcopter was 10 meters away from us. They were shot in front of us, and there was a martyr that stayed over there and no one could get close to him. We begged the soldiers to carry him back, but they didn't allow us.
- [21:37]
We provided the Israeli military with GPS coordinates for the locations where bodies were likely bulldozed. In a detailed list of questions, the military said bulldozers positioned in the Zikim area are used for operational purposes to deal with IED threats and for routine engineering needs. It denied they were used to remove bodies, but did not address questions about burying them. The military also declined to describe its protocol for dealing with bodies in Gaza. The Israeli military's apparent improper disposal of bodies of Palestinians stretched far beyond Sikhim. We spoke with two Israeli soldiers on condition of anonymity due to fears of retribution. Both described bodies of Palestinians being buried in shallow, unmarked graves in different parts of Gaza.
- [22:30]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Essentially, the idea was to shove the.
- [22:32]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Body with a bunch of dirt, clearing.
- [22:33]
Senator Bill Cassidy
The road and push it to the sides.
- [22:36]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
And that was it?
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Christiane Amanpour (Host)
That was it, yeah.
- [22:38]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
The grave was not marked?
- [22:40]
Senator Bill Cassidy
No.
- [22:41]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
There was no identification process or notification process to any international or Palestinian organization.
- [22:48]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Not that I was aware of. Not in my unit. So essentially, we were never given any protocol or any order of how to handle any bodies.
- [22:55]
Senator Bill Cassidy
There was never once that anyone told us, if you have a body, this is what should be done by allowing.
- [23:01]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
The dead to become the missing. International law experts say bulldozing bodies into unmarked graves can violate international law. And if those bodies are mutilated or desecrated, the practice can rise to the level of outrages upon personal dignity, a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. As for Amar Wadi, about a month after he went missing in late June, his phone was returned to his family. A message had been left on the home screen. Forgive me, mom, if anything happens to me, whoever finds my phone, please tell my family that I love them so much. A message that reads like a young man's final words. Words that are impossible for a mother to accept without a body to bury.
- [23:51]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
And thanks to Jeremy diamond for that investigative report. He has also reported gross violations over in the occupied west bank, where Israeli settler violence has reached record levels. More than a thousand Palestinians have been killed by them and the security forces in the last two years. That is according to the un One of the latest shocking incidents was caught on camera. This footage shows IDF soldiers shooting and killing two people in Jenin who appear to be surrendering now. Palestinian Islamic Jihad say those dead men were fighters who had been engaging fire with Israeli soldiers and called the IDF action a field execution. Israel's far right national Security Minister Itmar Ben Gvir responded by praising the soldiers and promoting the unit commander. Last week, as this video emerged, I spoke with Israel's Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who's sounding the alarm about Israel's conduct in the West Bank.
- [24:55]
Ehud Olmert
I think it has to be checked and I hope it will be checked and examined in a proper manner by the Israeli army and that if it.
- [25:07]
Will be verified and I hope that the necessary measures will be taken and those responsible for it will be court martialed.
- [25:17]
And it's certainly something that needs to be examined carefully. As for the crackdown, there certainly is some terror coming occasionally in the west bank and it has to be.
- [25:33]
Taken care of in the most effective manner. And I hope that the Israeli authorities are doing what needs to be done in order, order to prevent the terror of Palestinians. I'm not certain that they are doing the same in order to prevent a Jewish terror which is perpetrated on a daily basis by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. And this is something which become massive and ugly and outrageous and totally unacceptable, intolerable and unforgivable on a daily basis. There are settlers that are cracking down non involved people, innocent Palestinians, whilst they are burning their homes and threatening their lives and burning their olive groves. Which in my mind shows that these guys have not really any.
- [26:36]
Any real genuine attitude towards the land and what grows on the land. Those who can burn the olive groves of Palestinians can burn everything. And unfortunately it is done with the tacit cooperation.
- [26:53]
And non involvement of the Israeli police and a gross indifference by the Israeli military in the area. And this is time to stop it. And I'm afraid that the day will come that Israel will be brought to the International Court, Criminal Court in the Hague. Not because of Gaza, where there is no genocide and there was no genocide in my judgment, but what is taking place in the west bank, an area entirely under the control of the State of Israel and where there are atrocities committed every day by Jews which is shameful and unbearable and as I said, unforgivable.
- [27:32]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
You know, Prime Minister, this is incredibly strong stuff to hear from an Israeli, from a Jew, from the former Prime Minister about the status of your armed forces, as you say, the tacit approval of the government and the like, you say it has to be stopped immediately. I'm going to read this to you because the police Minister, Itmar Ben Gavir, who's known to be very far right, the National Security Security Minister, has posted in regards to the original.
- [27:59]
The original video I told you about, he's posted on X in Hebrew, quote, giving full backing to the border guard fighters and IDF soldiers who fired at wanted terrorists who emerged from a building in Jenin the fighters acted exactly as expected of them. Terrorists must die. So just what is your response to that? Because, you know, I mean, the state is backing this, and obviously this is still under investigation and we can't make a conclusion. But the IDF says that it's investigating it. And you say these kinds of things must stop. But when a minister posts this and gives full backing, what does that tell you about the general, about the general lay of the land?
- [28:46]
Ehud Olmert
This minister, Minister of National Security, as you know very well, I'm sure Christine, was convicted in court several times for being involved in terror, Jewish terror, against Palestinians. So he's the last person on earth that can testify or can observe the atrocities that are committed by Jews in the territories. Now, I'm not, as I said before, I'm not familiar with the specific of this event, and I don't know what happened. And I hope that the suspicions are not valid and that there was not nothing that is said has actually taken place. But I know of other events which are taking place in other parts of the west bank on a daily basis. And every time the Hilltop youth are attacking and burning and. And penetrating into the private homes of individuals that are not involved in anything and call for the killing of them, there is not any reaction by the Israeli police, the police of Mr. Bengvir, the National Minister of National Security, and is not taken, the measures are not taken by the army, and it happens, and it's shameful. And yes, as a Jew, as an Israeli and as a Jew and as a former prime minister, and I know that what I say is something that many Israelis don't like to hear, and they criticize and they yell at me sometimes when they see me, because they said, why do you say that? And I said, I'd rather speak up in the most explicit manner, in order so that everyone in the world, everyone that watch us now and everyone that will watch you another time, will know that there are millions of Israelis which are unhappy with this, which are against this, which are against this government, where people like Benqville can be ministers of national security perpetrating or supporting the perpetration of things which are totally unacceptable and unbearable, and will speak up so that it will stop.
- [30:47]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
So why do you think this is going on? What is the intention, the mission of this Israeli government? Why doesn't it stop it? And also. Okay, I'll ask you that question first.
- [30:58]
Ehud Olmert
Well, I'm not, you know, I have to say I wouldn't accuse Prime Minister Netanyahu for wanting that this will happen. I accuse him for not taking the necessary measures to stop it, knowing that it happens. Because those who are responsible for it and those who are acquiescent with it and the ministers of Benven Smotrich and their supporters in the messianic groups in the Israeli government, I know what they want. They hope that we will be able to, to somehow force out the Palestinians from the west bank and force the Palestinians out from Gaza and take over these territories and integrate them into the State of Israel and prepare them for resettlements of Israelis and Jews all over. This is totally unacceptable. The majority of the Israeli people are against it. And we are fighting day and night in the streets of Israel, rioting and demonstrating against the Israeli government for supporting or for ignoring or for overlooking these events and entirely, entirely not taking into consideration the massive downfall of the status of the State of Israel and the perception of the State of Israel as a humanistic country against everything that we were perceived to be in the past.
- [32:22]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
You know, I obviously hear your anger and I hear you wanting to stand up and, and be counted and you're speaking your conscience. And it's very interesting to hear from you. You did say that you did not believe Israel would be taken to the Hague, the war crimes tribunal for Gaza. And you don't go there on the genocide issue, but you have said that you believe the government has condoned or enabled war crimes in Gaza. So I want to ask you about the next phase in Gaza. Do you think there is a good faith effort to actually move on to the second phase of what was, you know, delineated in the 20 point plan? Because the first phase, the ceasefire and the exchange of hostages and prisoners and bodies is about to be over. And we hear from, you know, Cairo and ongoing talks there about what's next, that they've completely stalled, that Hamas won't demilitarized because, oh, and Israel won't withdraw according to the plan, it still occupies about half of Gaza. What is the hope for Gaza now?
- [33:29]
Ehud Olmert
Israel is not going to pull out from Gaza if Hamas will not be disarmed and Hamas will not be disarmed voluntarily if Israel will not pull out from Gaza. And the truth is that none of these sides, not the Israeli side, not the Palestinian, Palestinian side in this particular instance and on this particular issue, ready to move on forward in the direction of what President Trump has articulated in the 20 point plan. The only possible solution is the enforcement by President Trump. And I must tell you something, Christine. You know.
- [34:12]
I'm not certain that I know what President Trump has in mind, I don't know him. I never had a chance to share with him my thoughts and talk to him. But I take this opportunity because you are watched widely everywhere in the world. There is an opportunity which may be missed at this point in life. Trump is the only person on earth that has the power to make a difference that will change the lives of tens of millions of people and will do something dramatic that no president before him has been able to do. He has that power now because he can force the Israeli prime minister to do that which he doesn't want to do. And he can force him to carry on the full implementation or the 20th points. And he has the power to use the moderators, the Turks and the Qataris and the Egyptians to force Hamas to disarm, which is essential. And then he has the power to force the two sides, the Palestinian side and the Israeli side, to start a dialogue for a two state solution.
- [35:24]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Thank you very much, former prime minister. And I just have to say we still hope. Thank you, Christian members of the current government on our program to talk about all these issues.
- [35:34]
Well, a sign that the current government is not really ready for a proper peace plan, that it's as far away as ever. Today, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu boycotted a Knesset vote endorsing President Trump's 20 point plan for Gaza. Netanyahu's far right allies reject any mention of a two state solution. The opposition leader Yahil Lapid says he was disappointed about the no show as it was a chance for, quote, uniting around a common goal. Coming up in the United States, it's crunch time for Congress on health care. With insurance costs set to rise for millions of people, our next guest believes he has a solution. Senator Bill Cassidy joins Walter Isaacson after the break.
- [36:22]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
Coming to cnn, candid conversations between Hollywood's hottest actors. New episodes of Variety's acclaimed series Actors on Actors premiere exclusively on CNN starting December 5th. Go to CNN.com watch to subscribe or log in with your TV provider.
- [36:42]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Next to U.S. health Care, where Congress will decide on proposed plans next week to save Obamacare t tax credits, which are due to expire in less than 30 days. Without it, tens of millions of Americans could see their premiums increase by an average of 114%. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy was a local doctor who believes he might have a solution, as he explains now to Walter Isaacson. And he also addresses controversial medical moves by RFK Jr. The health secretary that Cassidy voted to confirm.
- [37:17]
Christiane Amanpour
Thank you, Chris, John and Senator Bill Cassidy, welcome back to the show hey.
- [37:22]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Very nice to be with you. Thank you for having me.
- [37:24]
Christiane Amanpour
Walter, you know, before you were a senator, before you got into public life, you were a doctor. And one of the things you did as a doctor is you had a career in public hospitals where you were serving patients who were uninsured and were poor. Tell me, what drew you to that.
- [37:40]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Yeah. So I did my residency and fellowship at Los Angeles County Hospital, I think at the time the largest hospital in the United States. And I really enjoyed the patient population. I enjoyed teaching, and I also enjoyed being involved with the research thing. So I came back to Louisiana with my wife. She was at the time.
- [38:02]
Practicing trauma surgery. We both started with lsu, and I worked in a public hospital in Baton Rouge, again taking care of the uninsured and the poorly insured, teaching medical students and doing clinical research. Incredibly rewarding career, which I'm very thankful for the state of Louisiana for giving me the opportunity to do.
- [38:23]
Christiane Amanpour
Ed, when you talk about the uninsured, you know, we're having this big issue now. How does that inform the fact that you want to make sure that there are extensions of some sort for healthcare benefits that we're facing that vote on soon?
- [38:38]
Senator Bill Cassidy
So my life has been dedicated to making sure that all Americans have access to adequate healthcare. Now, by the way, that sometimes puts me at odds with people who think just because you make insurance cheaper, it actually works for the patient. My experience as a physician is that if somebody has a $6,000 deductible, it can be as if they do not have insurance at all. The premium may be cheaper. If they get in a car wreck, they're protected from financial ruin, but they don't have $5,000 in their account to pay for health care. So my whole approach to healthcare has been very much informed by those patients whom I saw long ago and who would tell me, doc, I can't afford that. I got a deductible. My insurance won't cover it. How do we make it work for them? That's a critical question.
- [39:26]
Christiane Amanpour
And so tell me what your plan that you're trying to get, both Democrats and Republicans, is a compromise plan, how that would put money to help people pay their deductibles. And a lot of people, including the Kaiser Family foundation, say it could actually hurt. Hurt poor people.
- [39:44]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Yeah. So Kaiser Family foundation is not familiar with the details of my plan. I just know that from their comments. And let's put this in context. We're speaking about the patients or the people, our fellow Americans who are on the Obamacare exchanges and it's about 6% of the population. There has been a rapid increase in the cost of health care and of health care premiums, health insurance premiums, rapid increase. So the original Obamacare had an advanced premium tax credit which helped everybody below 400% of federal poverty. Costs were exploding so much under the Biden administration, they added something called the enhanced premium tax credit benefiting those over 400% of federal poverty. So that's the context. And I'm sorry for the technical detail, by the way. Kaiser Family foundation thought I was speaking of both the advanced premium, the baseline premium tax credits and the enhanced. I am not. I'm only speaking about the enhanced premium tax credits. What if we did this? Instead of Giving that money, 100% of it, to insurance companies who take 20% of whatever we give them as overhead and profit, 20% of the $26 billion we would spend next year given to insurance companies, 20% of that is used for overhead and profit. What instead, if we said, okay, we're going to take that same money, we're going to make sure that no one spends more than, pick a number, 8.5%, 9.5% of their income on health insurance premiums. That only affects certain older people, basically 50s and their 60s. It only affects them, but we're going to instead give 100% of that money to the patient in the form of a health savings account. The patient would then choose a lower bronze premium as a cheaper policy. So they're spending less on premiums than they would under the typical Obamacare policy. But they're also getting money into a health savings account for first dollar coverage of their deductible. Their deductible on net could be lower than the policy they're currently getting. And not only that, they have first dollar coverage. What does that mean? Practically? My daughter sprained her ankle. I bring her to an urgent care center instead of a $5,000 deductible, and I have to spend $5,000 before my insurance pays. They have $2,000 in their health savings account, and they pay for the visit out of that $2,000, not out of their pocket. That's a sweet spot. Cheaper premiums, lower deductibles, and first dollar coverage. That's the plan I am proposing.
- [42:27]
Christiane Amanpour
Walter, if this doesn't come to pass, there's going to be an up or down vote that Senator John Thune said he would have in the Senate on extending the Obamacare and Biden enhanced subsidies. If your plan doesn't go through, would you vote for that?
- [42:46]
Ehud Olmert
No.
- [42:47]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Why? It still leaves the patient with a $6,000 deductible. It is more about profit for the insurance company than it is about power to the patient, the ability to give the patient the ability to afford the health care that they need.
- [43:05]
As opposed to if I get in a car wreck, that's important. But what about your daughter's sprained ankle? And so I'm working so that we don't have an up and down voter on a Democratic plan and an up and down voter and a Republican plan and both fail. Rather that we have an American plan that we can all vote for and pass and turn turn into law. By the way, you probably won't. You rarely lose money betting against the ability of Congress to get something done. But this is so important. I'm hoping that people can put aside their kind of, I'm not going to work with President Trump because it's President Trump or whatever and say, wait a second, this fits the need. It balances lower premiums, first dollar coverage, lower deductibles. This is the way we should go. Irrespective of who actually is proposing the plan.
- [43:55]
Christiane Amanpour
What would happen to our state in Louisiana, people there if none of this passes and the extension doesn't pass?
- [44:02]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Yeah. So there's going to be a subset of people in Louisiana, but across the nation who don't do as well. And that's why I'm so committed to actually making it work. By the way, I'll point out once more, my experience practicing in Louisiana, but I could say in California, because I did long ago, is that when you give somebody who has a deductible of $6,000, that policy doesn't really work for them. Most people don't have $6,000 in their back pocket to pay for that deductible. So if we can give them a policy which lowers the premium, lowers the net deductible and gives them first dollar coverage to pay for that sprained ankle that their child has, that does work for them. And I say again, that is an American plan giving power to not profit to the insurance company.
- [44:56]
Christiane Amanpour
When you were here in Louisiana and practicing, you ended up developing a public private partnership to vaccinate, I think it was 36,000 Baton Rouge area children against hepatitis B, no cost to the parents and all. I think the CDC advisory Committee, the Vaccine Advisory Committee, is expected to vote on whether to undo all of that. What would you do if that happens? And how can you make sure that Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Doesn't push that through?
- [45:30]
Senator Bill Cassidy
So the Real vote will be not on adolescent immunization, but on whether to recommend a birth dose of hepatitis B. Now, I'm strongly in favor of that. It's not a mandate, but it is a recommendation to the mother that the child be vaccinated upon birth. Now, folks say why? Because the common criticism is that it's sexually transmitted. And so why would you give a vaccine to a child for a sexually transmitted disease? Why? Because when the child passes through the birth canal, that child is exposed to the same secretions as if it were intercourse. If the mother turns out to be hepatitis B positive, that child, if infected through those secretions, has a 95% chance of becoming chronically or permanently infected with hepatitis B. Instead, if you give that child a birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine, not a mandate or recommendation, then that child has a 95% chance of not becoming chronically hepatitis B infected. By the way, since this policy has begun, the number of children who've acquired hepatitis B at either birth or shortly after birth has decreased from 20,000 a year to 200 a year.
- [46:52]
How remarkable. All because of a recommendation. And folks say, wait a second. We should know what the mother's hepatitis B status is. If you do, that's fine. But it turns out sometimes it's just missed. The regular OB is not there, the mom is out of town and goes to a different hospital who doesn't have access to the records, or she just shows up and has not had prenatal care. That happens in a country as big as ours. This is a way to, as much as possible, make sure that when that child is born, that that child, if exposed to hepatitis B, is not chronically infected.
- [47:30]
Christiane Amanpour
When you voted to confirm Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Rather reluctantly, I think you were tentative there. You extracted a few promises, including the fact that they would keep a recommendation on the CDC website saying that vaccines do not cause autism.
- [47:47]
Senator Bill Cassidy
It confirmed he will maintain the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommendations. Without changes, CDC will not remove statements on their website.
- [48:03]
Pointing out that vaccines do not cause autism.
- [48:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, he's backtracked on that. What do you think of that? And how can you hold him accountable?
- [48:13]
Senator Bill Cassidy
As a physician, of course I know this is wrong, that there has been lots of information out there to show that this is not the case. If you're suing drug companies.
- [48:26]
I can see why you want this out there. But if you're trying to reassure a mother whose child has autism and now may blame herself because her child was vaccinated.
- [48:38]
And you're blaming yourself. Why put that guilt trip on a mom when that has nothing to do with it? By the way, it also distracts attention from going after real causes, which appears to be a complex mixture of a child's genetic predisposition, the age of the parents, environmental stressors, all that as a kind of complex mixture. That's where we should be focused on, to distract on the falsity, the falsehood that immunizations have a role, or even to imply is a terrible injustice. That said, the only parents I know who read CDC websites on immunizations are probably pediatricians who happen to also be moms. It's not commonly read. I strongly encourage mamas and daddies to talk to the child's pediatrician, to have somebody who's learned, who's gone to medical school, reviewed the information, to actually review it with. So you can be reassured that the benefits of preventing diseases by having your child vaccinated are incredible and the risk of autism is absolutely nothing.
- [49:56]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, wait, if it's on the CDC website, that does have an impact. Does it?
- [50:00]
Senator Bill Cassidy
I'm not denying that.
- [50:02]
Christiane Amanpour
And didn't you make sure that they weren't going to do that? Have you talked to Secretary Kennedy back on that promise?
- [50:09]
Senator Bill Cassidy
We've spoken in a very strenuous conversation. I'll leave it at that. And now they're telling me I have to go to my next function. And I don't mean. But I just have to go. Yeah.
- [50:20]
Christiane Amanpour
All right. Let me ask you one more general question, which you may want to answer.
- [50:26]
You've been able to reach across the aisle, Senator Bernie Sanders at one point, Senator Tim Kaine at another, about things including on vaccines. Do you think it's possible to restore that ability to. To work across aisles on. Especially on the health care coverage issue?
- [50:44]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Yes. I wouldn't work at this if I didn't think it was possible, because this will not pass unless it has both Republicans and Democrats voting for it. And what I ask people, put aside your prejudice. Don't be a Democrat, don't be a Republican. Be first an American. Think about that couple. Who cares what their political party is, who is actually struggling to make their ends meet. And they need to have that health insurance. They need to have that health care. They don't. They can't handle a $6,000 deductible. If we can do better for that family with the same amount of money or less, why don't we do it? And I say that probably more as a doctor, certainly more as an American than anything else. And that's, I think, the approach that, that we should all take. Americans first.
- [51:37]
Christiane Amanpour
Senator Bill Cassidy, thank you so much for joining us.
- [51:40]
Senator Bill Cassidy
Thank you, Walter.
- [51:43]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
And finally, as efforts to end the Russian war on Ukraine stall, let's recall the biggest act of peace in 100 years. 36 years ago today, the presidents of the United States, George H.W. bush and Mikhail Gorbachev of the Soviet Union declared an end after a two day summit in Malta. As the pair announced the pullback of troops and weapons in Europe, it set the stage for a new future with Bush confidently saying we can realize a lasting peace and transform the east west relationship to one of enduring cooperation. Much later, I spoke to Gorbachev himself about the critical part he had played.
- [52:25]
To many people around the world, you are a hero, a once in a generation actor who ended the Cold War. How would you like your people to remember you?
- [52:38]
Senator Bill Cassidy
History is a fickle lady and you can expect surprises from history. But I do know that I did what I did and that I can be proud.
- [52:50]
Christiane Amanpour (Host)
Gorbachev was right about history as all that hope of cooperation and enduring peace is obviously under serious threat from a revanchist Russia today. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye. From London.
- [53:21]
CNN Reporter Jeremy Diamond
Foreign.
- [53:26]
Julianne Smith
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. I'm here with Nikki Petrossi. She's a mom of three and a former social media executive turned social media reform advocate. Why do we have to be in this position to try to fight with our kids over this when it's the company's decisions to make these things addictive? In a Pew research poll from 2024, nearly half of US teens said that they were online almost constantly. So how can parents even begin to moderate all of this screen time?
- [53:57]
Senator Bill Cassidy
We need to pressure the companies to do better.
- [53:59]
Julianne Smith
Like we need to push back. Listen to CNN's terms of service. Wherever you get your podcasts.