Loading summary
Transcript86 lines
- [00:05]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:09]
B
I would say the ceasefire is on.
- [00:12]
C
Massive life support.
- [00:14]
A
As tensions with Iran rise again, America's allies refuse to support Trump's war of choice. Munich Security Conference chair Wolfgang Isinger joins me with a view from Europe.
- [00:25]
D
Then I think it's important that we recognize what happened for the victims, for them to be believed.
- [00:32]
A
A new report sheds light on a dark topic. Allegations of sexual crimes committed by Hamas on and after October 7th. The report's lead author, Kochav El Khayyem Levy joins the program.
- [00:47]
C
And people have to realize that what's happening elsewhere is happening elsewhere.
- [00:52]
B
But what's happening over here is plain anti Semitism.
- [00:55]
A
Correspondent Jomana Karachi reports on Iran's influence in anti Semitic attacks across Europe.
- [01:02]
C
Also, you're creating a whole new set of rules for themselves, which is deeply, deeply troubling.
- [01:08]
A
Hari Shrinivasan goes down the crypto rabbit hole with filmmaker Ben McKenzie, director of Everyone is lying to you for money.
- [01:34]
E
Paula.
- [01:35]
A
And a very warm welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christian Amanpour. Unbelievably weak, a piece of garbage. President Donald Trump responds to Iran's ceasefire counterproposal, saying he's seriously considering resuming combat operations. Now. This means pressure on the world economy continues. With the Strait of Hormuz still blocked, prices for oil, fertilizer and other key commodities, they remain high. The Iran conflict may be America's and Israel's war of choice, but the fallout hits allies in Europe particularly hard now as their countries invest billions to rebuild their militaries in the face of a growing Russian threat. European leaders from Germany to Italy are standing up to US Pressure. And it's in this fraught atmosphere that today Trump heads to China for a high stakes summit with with Chinese President Xi Jinping. For more on all of this, Wolfang was, pardon me, Germany's ambassador to the United States. He is now chair of the Munich Security Conference. And we welcome him to the program again. Good to see you. On what continues to be a very eventful few months here, Trump heading to China. You know, he hasn't been there since 2017. He will have Elon Musk, Tim Cook, others at hand to discuss trade deals, arms sales to Taiwan. And also what is concerning many is the case of Jimmy Lai. He is jailed. Trump has been really equivocal about whether or not he will push for his release. And yet Donald Trump says, look, we're doing great with China. I Respect Xi a lot. I ask you, is Trump doing great with China? And do you believe Xi respects Trump?
- [03:25]
B
Well, first of all, let me say I'm excited about being on your program again. These are exciting times. Right. I think everybody that I know in Europe hopes that this historic visit by President Trump to China is going to lead to meaningful, positive results. I think we're all hoping that there will be an outcome that will push the Iran war to an end, to a negotiated end. And I would also personally hope very much that the personal atmosphere between the two leaders, between President Trump and President Xi Jinping, will be one that would allow a meaningful continued discussion. I understand that these two leaders are supposed to meet several times again in the course of this year. So this is a very important moment in history that's coming up this week.
- [04:32]
A
Yeah, a lot at stake globally. And even if you follow Chinese state media, they are certainly setting this up to be a productive summit. I do want to get to the issue of Iran, as you mentioned. I'm not sure how much you believe China will be consequently in this. We heard what Trump believes about the ceasefire. He says it's on life support. But what kind of options does President Trump in the United States have at hand right now when it comes to Iran?
- [05:01]
B
Well, I think that he can hopefully talk to President Xi in a way that would encourage the Chinese side to, to in turn encourage the Iranian leaders to compromise on the one issue that really unites us across the Atlantic between America and Europe, namely to figure out a way to make sure that Iran will not produce a nuclear weapon. Let me clear up one misunderstanding which I have noted in the discussions across the Atlantic of the last period. We in Europe, and especially my own country, Germany, which is a non nuclear country, we are at least as interested as is the Trump administration or as is the United States of America in making sure that there will not be an additional new nuclear country, a country with nuclear weapons. In other words, if these efforts will lead to an end of the Iranian military nuclear ambition, we will be the happiest people in Europe, because the Iranian ballistic missile development, of course, cannot reach the continental United States, but they could, at least in theory, reach most parts of Europe. In other words, we are really, in the longer term perspective, rather directly affected if there were an additional nuclear military power in the Middle East.
- [06:48]
A
And I certainly get the shared interest. And as you said, perhaps Europe has more at stake even than the United States. But Robert Kagan, who's known in the United States as a neocon and a military hawk wrote in the Atlantic in the last few days. He calls it checkmate in a Iran. And I'm quoting him now. There will be no return to the status quo anti no ultimate American triumph that will undo or overcome the harm done. The Strait of Hormuz will not be open as it once was. Iran emerges as the key player in the region and one of the key players in the world. The roles of China and Russia are strengthened. The role of the United States substantially diminished. The global adjustment to a post American world is accelerating. How about that? Do you, which side do you weigh in there? Because a lot has been made, certainly about the demise of the American empire. Do you think this is an epoch or do you believe this is really just a moment in time in history and things will right themselves again?
- [07:51]
B
Well, you know, as a practicing diplomat, I, I need always to be on the optimistic side of things. If you are a pessimist, you can't be a successful diplomat in principle. So I understand. I appreciate the concerns expressed not only by American critics of President Trump, but around the world, that this is not going to lead to a good result. But quite frankly, the last word has not been spoken on this. And the one thing that I know is that the Chinese side is of course, strategically, fundamentally very interested in having a peaceful situation in the Gulf because they need the oil from the Gulf region. They need the energy. It was China that managed to arrange for a handshake a few years ago between the Saudi and the Iranian leadership. Why did they do that? Because they want this region, region to be at peace. In other words, I think President Trump has at least a chance to get Xi Jinping to talk to the Iranians in a way that would lead to a compromise to concessions by the Iranians and would not provoke the United States into yet another escalation to use military force. I know that that is not something which the Arab neighbors of Iran would like to see. Let's hope that can be avoided. Let's hope this week will lead to an opening and not to a close of diplomacy in the Iranian case.
- [09:40]
A
So you did mention you were a diplomat. You did mention you will be optimistic. But let's try and be realistic here. I mean, you are the chair of the Munich Security Conference. I don't think we have to remind anyone what JD Vance said in that speech. And he railed against Europe for several reasons. But I want to ask you, this year, the Munich Security Conference Conference, you know, your whole report opened with such a stark assessment saying, and I quote from the report now, that the world has entered a period of wrecking ball politics, sweeping destruction rather than careful reforms and policy corrections. You know, it's you yourself that put that on the table. What is this concept of the West? And do you really see a substantive pivot away from the United States in Europe? Not a rhetorical one, no. A substantive one,
- [10:28]
B
no. Really, I don't think our report should be misunderstood. We are, of course, we Germans, Europeans, we are totally worried. We're in panic about the fact that the Russian leadership started a war in Europe after we had decades of negotiated peace in Europe, where Russia is now using military force to change existing borders in Europe. In other words, we have a catastrophic situation in Europe. And we are extremely interested in making sure that the United States of America will stay with us in trying to keep defending, to help defend Ukraine against this invasion and make sure that Ukraine survives as an independent country that is essential to European security. And if this transatlantic alliance, if NATO is supposed to be worth something, then hopefully Americans will agree with Europeans that we need to make sure that Russia understands that they cannot and will not succeed in destroying the independent country of agreement. This is our priority number one. And we need the United States on our side. And there have, of course, been expressions of questions from the Trump administration which have made us extremely worried.
- [12:14]
A
All right, you've stayed, you've stayed onside there. You continue to be very optimistic, Wolfgang and Sugar, we have to leave it there. And we will continue this conversation, I'm sure. Now stay with cnn. We will be right back after.
- [12:34]
E
I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. Tell me if you've ever felt this way while sitting at your desk at work, eyes burning back and shoulders curled up like a boiled shrimp and feeling cranky. That is how journalist and podcast host Minouche Zomorodi describes the experience of working at a desk in front of a laptop all day in her new book Today on Average Information Worker, Most of us are information workers. 90% of our time is spent seeing. It's wild. I mean, it increases the possibility of diabetes, obesity, all sorts of chronic health issues. Listen to CNN's terms of service wherever you get your podcasts.
- [13:26]
A
Now, a new report is shedding light on a difficult, often politicized subject. Sexual crimes allegedly committed by Hamas on and after October 7th. Now, in the most comprehensive study yet, the civil commission on October 7, crimes against women and Children, an independent non governmental body, has gathered evidence and testimony of sexual assault and torture by Hamas militants and their allies. Allegations of sexual assault around October 7 are controversial given the contradictory reports that have emerged now. This report, called Silenced no More, is intended to provide a higher standard of documentary evidence. Its authors stress that the report does not discriminate it. It documents assaults against victims of multiple religions, Christian and Muslim, as well as Jewish. Hamas has previously denied allegations of sexual and gender based violence. My guest, Khoshav Khayyam Alevi, is the report's lead author and an expert on international human rights law. Before we begin, I do want to have a warning for you. Please be aware that we'll be discussing sensitive, potentially traumatic topics. Kohab El Qayem Levy, welcome to the program. Your report is one of the most comprehensive efforts yet to document sexual and gender based violence during those horrific attacks on October 7th and also in captivity. It leans heavily on prior UN findings, especially the report from Pramilla Patton's report and the UN Commission of Inquiry, of course. I have to start, though, with your words. You have stated chillingly that you have, in your words, lived inside the darkest evidence imaginable. What new findings or evidence add to what is already known.
- [15:21]
D
Wow. Yes, as you said, it was, I think, the hardest thing I've done in my life. And the hardest thing it's of all of us, of the entire team that had to document and, and watch the materials again and again and again and collect evidence, collect testimonies. What was the hardest thing? I think the causing of pain to families, the fact that families had to witness their loved ones being sexually humiliated, abused. And one case that we documented in which two family members were four forced to commit sexual acts on one another.
- [16:06]
A
As I said, absolutely chilling and horrific. And in terms of the evidence itself, how do you believe this comprehensive report will add to what is already on record? As you said, a lot of the evidence was on video and photographs.
- [16:21]
D
So it's a 300 pages report. Over half of it is factual documentation. It, it kind of details image after image, video after video, testimony after testimony. And I think what's different here is that the report and the archive allows us to kind of step back and see the whore in its entirety. And I think what we see is that the sexual violence was a strategy. It was calculated. And as a scholar, I think what we've witnessed is exceptional cruelty.
- [16:57]
A
And as you said, so difficult for you, your investigators, and of course the victims themselves and their families. You relied so heavily on forensic evidence. How important is that in this investigation? And as you said, for the record and for the archive,
- [17:15]
D
we relied on videos, images, most of them, the terrorists Themselves took during the attack, realized of testimonies of eyewitnesses, ear witnesses, and hostages that unfortunately returned from captivity with horrific stories of the hell they've been through. You know, some of the things that we weren't sure how to describe is the prolonged sexual violence, the reality of hell, of sexual violence day after day. There is one testimony that one of the hostages says that after she was raped or after she was sexually assaulted, she couldn't even go to shower. And that's something that stays with her. And the fact that she became captive in a way that she could be sexually assaulted anytime at any point kind of left a deep impression on all of us. And I want to also mention the fact that many of the victims were shot in their faces in the genital area. We saw sexual torture and burning of victims in their genital areas. And I think it's something important to understand. One of the things that I want, I feel that we have to. That we have to take into consideration is that we cannot prevent what we don't know. And I think the report creates a before and after reality in the sense that now that we've put such a substantial evidentiary foundation, it shifts the debate from questions of whether this happened to what are the consequences of such atrocities. And I think we want to see terrorists, terror experts engaging with these evidence, national security experts engaging with this evidence and preventing the next atrocities.
- [19:17]
A
And so much of your evidence, obviously, is again for the record and builds something that you believe will lead to accountability. Some of what is new you've just explained, but it has to do with those as well in captivity. And some. Some of that we have not heard. In terms of that new evidence, how significant do you believe it will be again, hearing from those that were held for so long or held for such a long time and died in fact, in captivity?
- [19:46]
D
It's important to understand that more will be revealed. More hostages that have not spoken yet will share their stories. Some of them only shared a brief, extreme accounts of what happened to them. And they were held for many, many months. So I think much more is going to be revealed. And in that sense, we owe the victims recognition. The thing that is most important for us now is that the report will be recognized and its finding will be recognized in different parliaments around the world in congressional hearings in a way that, you know, you mentioned accountability. And I think what we realized is that no single prosecution or legal proceeding can reveal the magnitude of what happened to them in a similar way to what the report does. So I think it's important that we recognize what happened for the victims, for them to be believed and for them not to have to go through more and more pain of re sharing what happened to them.
- [20:58]
A
Yeah, and we will get to that point. And that is obviously retraumatizing everyone. When some try to deny the pain and the violence and the torture that they've gone through. I will say your report highlights the fact that this was systemic in nature. And if I can read from the report now, the commission, you say, identified 13 recurring patterns of sexual and gender based violence committed across multiple locations. The repetition of these patterns demonstrates that the crimes were not isolated acts of brutality, but formed part of a broader operational method used during the attack and its aftermath. And again, I want to quote you, your words are that this was not chaos. It was a calculated, cruelly organized plan. I mean, what led you to conclude that? And also, why is it so important in terms of framing this report?
- [21:58]
D
I think when you immerse yourself in the evidence for so long and you hear testimony after testimony, and even if you read the report, just the first section, the section that goes through the testimonies location by location, you start seeing the patterns, you start seeing the similarities in the ways that the crimes were conducted. And I also want to mention that men and women were sexually abused, sexually tortured, sexually humiliated. So it was important for us to kind of again take a step back. And I think it's another report in itself. The thematic section that identifies 13 patterns of abuse is another substantial part of the report that showed that it wasn't incidental, that there is similarities in the way people share what happened to them. That there is. That there are similar way of inflicting similar ways of inflicting such pain on victims that we. It kind of strikes you.
- [22:59]
A
And yet throughout all of this, unfortunately, there has been disinformation, there has been denial. At what point do you believe that this report can transcend that? Because this, these horrific acts of sexual violence and torture have, as you know, all too well, been highly politicized.
- [23:22]
D
I think this is it. This is it. I think wethe report makes, you know, a significant contribution to move the debate from questions of whether this happened to what are the consequences of these crimes? What are we going to do about it? What is the world going to do about it? The report reveals that the victims of the attack belong to over 52 different nationalities. So this is an event with such a broad international impact. And I think what's far more important is to ask ourselves, what are we going to do about it.
- [24:02]
A
When we talk about what we are going to do about it, I don't have to remind you that there are also allegations, of course, in Israel, and they relate to the abuse in Israel prisons and detention centers. And I do want to read from a UN report, pardon me, a report that was submitted by Israeli NGOs to the UN, and I take a quote from that report submitted in November 2025. Testimonies taken since October 7 provide detailed accounts of sexual assault and harassment, sexual humiliation, and on some occasions, rape with objects. Multiple Palestinians classified as security detainees, both male and female, reported incidents in which the Israeli prison service personnel beat and humiliated detainees while naked, including on their genitalia, and threatened sexual violence and rape. You know all too well how difficult it is to really get this testimony on the record. And the fact that those Israeli NGOs went to great lengths to get it. How important is it in the totality of really trying to get accountability here that these allegations are also investigated and that there is accountability for those as well?
- [25:15]
D
All cases of sexual violence, especially such allegations, must be investigated. So it's important for me to emphasize that we are an independent ngo, a civil society organization. But of course, of course it is important to investigate all of these allegations. And we stand with all victims of sexual violence everywhere. We had the privilege to meet victims from all around the world, sharing their stories, getting strength from one another. And I think this is it. This is about standing together against this horrific phenomena.
- [25:54]
A
I have to ask you, how are the victims doing? What support are they getting? Because it can't be easy, even for you and your investigators, to look them in the face and say that there will be accountability, especially given the disinformation that really and the politicization that has persisted for so many years now.
- [26:15]
D
First of all, thank you so much for asking this question. I think the biggest challenge was actually the exposure to the church trauma on a daily basis, the exposure to these violent materials on a daily basis. And I think we had no choice. I want to say that very few in the world have agreed to witness these materials. And I want to recognize the work of the team of the civil commission that took upon themselves to bear witness and analyze. And what motivated us was actually the denial, the questioning. We wanted to ensure that the world knows what happened. We owe it to them. And we understood that if we wouldn't do it, no one will do it. That was kind of what pushed us to continue to do this. And I can say on a personal note that what kept me sane, first of all is knowing that we're going to put such an important piece on the historical record of these crimes. But also my children, I have four children. And I feel people ask me, how do you do this with four children? And I feel without them, I wouldn't have been able to do this. Like coming back home, spending time with my children, with the little one, you know, making puzzles. It's kind of what kept me going, knowing that we're doing this also for them, for them to have a better future. You asked also about the victims themselves, and we meet survivors, former hostages, families, on a daily basis. At one point, you know, you understand that these people are still stuck in hell. They continue to relive the trauma, especially since the atrocities were documented in ways that made family members bear witness. The suffering of the hostages, as we note in the report, was filmed and showed in Israel for months. And families had to see bodies of their loved ones. They had to see their torture. They had to see them taken into captivity. Hamas used the social media of the victims themselves to upload and, you know, broadcast the violence for the world to, to see, for. I don't know, for the families to be devastated at these moments. And the report opens actually with the quote of Ricardo Luc, the mother of Shaniluk, and how her body was paraded into Gaza almost naked while, you know, the crowds are spitting on her body. And the moment that they realized, the family realized that it was her and the screaming of her son. It's those devastating testimonies that remind us how difficult, if even impossible, if even possible, to recover from these atrocities.
- [29:13]
A
We really thank you for coming in and discussing the report with us. Again, as you said, more than 300 pages that will now be entered into the record. Incredibly difficult, but such crucial work. Again, thanks so much for being on the program.
- [29:28]
D
Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [29:33]
A
Now, if you or someone you know needs help in the US called a national sexual assault hotline around the world, UN Women or the Pixel Project has a list of resources for you. Now to a closer look at anti Semitic attacks right across Europe. Correspondent Joumana Kharadzeh examines a hidden Iranian network that solicits young recruits to attack synagogues and other Jewish sites.
- [30:01]
E
17 claims of attacks targeting mostly Jewish sites in seven weeks. We've been investigating Iran's possible links to these incidents, an investigation that has led us to a stunning discovery of something so sinister that, as we'll show you, is happening right now in the open. They're asking me if I have access to Zionist individuals or assets.
- [30:25]
C
It was just a matter of time that one of our communities was going to come under attack.
- [30:29]
E
We saw him taken away by an ambulance. Days after the war in Iran began, firebomb and arson attacks hit buildings including synagogues, Jewish centers and schools. In Europe, a previously unheard of group calling itself Harakat Ashab Al Yamin Al Islamiya, the Islamic movement of the companions of the righteous, claimed the attacks. In not so sophisticated videos and statements. We found that the claims seem to first appear on these telegram channels that are associated with Iranian backed Iraqi groups. A source close to Kataib Hezbollah, the most powerful of Iraqi Shia paramilitary groups that works closely with the irgc, confirmed to us its links to Ashab Al Yemin and told us some of its members are Iraqi. Security experts believe the group is just a front for the irgc. British counterterrorism police are investigating Iran's potential links to the London attacks and whether the regime may be hostile, hiring criminal proxies to carry them out, possibly recruiting people online. When you think of online recruitment by foreign intelligence services, you might assume that's something happening in the deep dark corners of the Internet. But take a look at what we found. This telegram channel in English and Hebrew called VIP Employment says it's recruiting, quote, high paid agents, it claims for Iranian intelligence. If you're ready to take the next step, it says, hit the start button. Undercover producer Flo and I started two separate chats, exchanging direct messages over several days with these accounts. So my conversation begins with someone calling themselves Sina. They quickly asked me lots of questions about myself, trying to get to know me. And then they assigned me a task. Two posters anti Trump, anti war posters. They asked me to film myself putting them up on the streets of London and offer me $2 per poster, paid in crypto. And later on in the conversation, they seem to coach me on how to avoid CCTV cameras. Do it in a place where there are no surveillance cameras, they say. At one point, I question, how can I confirm you are Islamic Republic Intelligence, as you say you are? And they say, the work I assigned you is against the policies of the filthy Zionist regime and America. With me, they get straight into it, what are my capabilities? What action can you take against Zionist individuals or assets? Do you have access to specific individuals or information? They ask. I ask what they mean by access to specific individuals or information. People who work in security and military agencies such as the Shin Bet, the Army and the Mossad, they say. And I ask them if they're only recruiting people in Israel. They said, no, we can hire anyone who can harm Israeli interests or individuals. And with those words, we decided to end the conversation there. But others appear to have taken the bait. We found VIP employment. A channel with the same name is alleged to have been used to recruit Israelis to spy for Iran, referenced in this indictment and other official documents. The Israeli men were given initiation tasks very similar to the one we were given by the Telegram account. From there, prosecutors say the men were tasked with filming government and military sites in exchange for money. One of them, an IDF reservist, was even offered more than $30,000 to assassinate his commander. We can't confirm any links between VIP employment and the recent anti Semitic attacks in Europe, but the one thing they seem to have in common is Iran. Here in the uk, the wave of attacks has left the small Jewish community feeling more vulnerable than ever. One of the group's targets in London, the Kenton United Synagogue, attacked the claim for being a center of Zionist influence and its rabbi, a key instrument of Zionism.
- [34:47]
B
Just take you in here.
- [34:49]
E
Oh, the smell.
- [34:50]
C
Yeah, it's quite, it's quite pungent, isn't it? And you can actually still smell the
- [34:55]
E
fire days after, 10 days after.
- [34:57]
B
And it's still quite, quite pungent, isn't it? They came from the outside, they smashed its window in and they threw a firebomb in here.
- [35:05]
C
You can see the damage that's been caused.
- [35:09]
E
Wow. I mean, how did you feel when you walked in and you saw this?
- [35:12]
B
I was really upset, obviously. I mean, it's only a medical room.
- [35:16]
C
I mean, we can replace it, we can redecorate it and everything else, but
- [35:21]
B
what could have transpired that is really,
- [35:25]
E
you know, with antisemitism at record highs worldwide. Rabbi Black says the attacks were a shock, but not a surprise.
- [35:34]
B
My biggest concern is that it has to stop. People have to realize that what's happening elsewhere is happening elsewhere, but what's happening over here is plain anti Semitism.
- [35:46]
E
A 17 year old British national pleaded guilty to arson without endangering life. In a written statement, he apologized. He said he has nothing against the Jewish people and said that he didn't know that this was a synagogue. Many of the suspects here and elsewhere in Europe are teenagers. Authorities are warning anyone considering getting involved in these attacks for quick cash. They will be, quote, used once and thrown away. But it seems these attacks may have already opened the floodgates, emboldening others to follow. On our way back from the synagogue, we noticed a heavy police presence. As we were making our way, we heard that people had been stabbed here and as we approached the police lines, we could see at the time the suspect was still on the ground, surrounded by by the police. Two visibly Jewish men were stabbed from the shadows. Ashab Elyamin claimed the attack without providing evidence of links to the suspect, who, according to police, has a history of mental illness and serious violence. Claim confuse, intimidate and inspire. That's all part of their tactics, leaving so many in this community bracing for even darker days ahead.
- [37:09]
A
Jomana Karrazeh reporting there. And just a note that the Iranian embassy in London denied having any link with or involvement in the London attack, saying in a statement such baseless accusations against the Islamic Republic of Iran lack credible evidence and appear to serve narrow political agendas and to mislead public opinion and distract from the real root causes of terrorism and violent extremism. And we'll be right back with more in a moment. Next to Washington, where this week senators will consider a long awaited bill that could hand the cryptocurrency industry a major regulatory win. And according to our next guest, the consequences could be deeply troubling. In a new documentary, actor and author Ben McKenzie takes a deep dive into the complicated word world of crypto and he joins Harry Srinivasan to explain.
- [38:13]
F
Paula, thanks. Ben McKenzie, welcome back to the program. We spoke a couple of years ago when you had a book out about cryptocurrency called Easy Money. And now you have a documentary called Everyone is Lying to you for Money.
- [38:25]
C
I have a degree in economics. Surely I can figure out this crypto stuff. No banks, no fees, electronic gold, take all your money, buy Bitcoin.
- [38:37]
F
I had a few questions. One of the things that you told me last time was a quote. One of the most pernicious parts of crypto is that it's exploited an understandable mistrust, lack of trust with our regulated system. Anything changed since then?
- [38:52]
C
The trust has lessened. I would imagine Donald Trump's embrace of crypto, which began in the spring, summer of 24, is really outside of the events that the film documents. But in many ways, Trump's embrace of crypto sort of symbolizes, crystallizes so many of the things that I was talking about in 2022, 2023. If you privatize money, if money doesn't come from the government, where does it come from? The answer with crypto is corporations and people. And Donald Trump and his corporation have their own crypto ventures which they profited off of immensely. But it's also true of bitcoin. By the way, the majority of bitcoin that are mined today are mined by multibillion dollar corporations, many of which are publicly traded. One of the problems with private money, with privatizing money, is fraud and manipulation. Historically, that's been true when we tried private money back in the 19th century. And so we're sort of this history sort of repeating itself with all of these endeavors by the President and his family that made them an enormous amount of money. But, you know, at least the allegation is that. The allegation by one of their top investors is that he's been defrauded. They're being sued right now. And the allegation is that he didn't actually have control over his investment in this. In this crypto venture that Trump and his family embarked upon. So I think in a way, the trust in our system, as crypto seeps further into it, the trust weakens as people. That's my feeling anyway, having I've been traveling around the country, going to screenings in person, doing Q and A's afterwards, and having conversations with people. So many people know someone who's been scammed or frauded in crypto, and so few of them feel like they've been listened to by the government and supported by the elected leaders, and so few have found restitution for those losses. It's quite sad.
- [41:01]
F
One of the things that I found most compelling about your film is you actually took the time very sort of caringly to talk to people who had invested in different cryptocurrencies and lost a significant amount of money. And you kind of come back to them, not a spoiler alert here, but at the end of the film, and you ask them whether they still have faith. And to A1, they said yes.
- [41:22]
B
What.
- [41:23]
F
In your conversations with the people that had been scammed, why did they still believe?
- [41:29]
C
I think that they still believed in part because to it was almost the more you invested, the more you lost, the more you had to believe. It would have been too painful to. That's my perception. It would have been too painful to acknowledge that the whole thing is sort of a house of cards. You would hear an awful lot. I was interviewing victims of a particular scam called Celsius.
- [41:53]
F
Yeah.
- [41:54]
C
The founder, the head of which is now, now in jail. And so a bunch of folks had lost. A bunch of these guys had lost money in Celsius. But they often would say, well, Celsius was a scam, but crypto isn't, Bitcoin isn't. And they had all sorts of reasons for that. But I really think in Terms of psychology, sociology of it all. We are looking at Dynamics Amongst the 5 to 6% of the population that's really into crypto. We're sort of looking at dynamics of a culture. There's a famous sociological paper from the 1950s. When prophecy fails. What happens when occult leaders, prognostications about the world ending don't come true? What happens when the world doesn't end? Do the followers renounce the faith? No, they double down. They believe more because it's too painful to believe otherwise. Sam Bankman. Fried. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. Of course. So I had a conversation with Alex Mashinsky. Celsius, yeah. Yep. I asked him how much real money is in crypto and he said 10 to 15%. He said the rest is speculation. Thank you. So, as of today, I think the number of dollars in crypto have not changed massively between then and now. One when perhaps they've lessened, certainly have not increased. I don't think they've decreased massively, though, which I think lines up with some of your thought that, like, a lot of this was leveraged, leaving this.
- [43:26]
F
Well, part of the problem if they
- [43:27]
C
haven't left, is that people can't get their money out. Imagine this is a regular regulated bank. Oh, yeah. This would be a big problem. Be a big problem.
- [43:34]
F
I don't understand what in his right mind made him think that he should sit down with you making a documentary about cryptocurrency. I mean, that's kind of what I was saying, that, like, a reporter wasn't asking him those very simple questions that you were, and he just didn't seem to be able to give you a decent answer.
- [43:57]
C
Yeah, it was probably the most bizarre hour of my life. I mean, it was really strange because I did assume that he would be able to answer at least some fundamental questions about crypto. Like, for example, what good does he do? Give me one thing that it does in the world that's good. And he said, remittances, sending money between countries. But I had just come from El Salvador, which the foundation of their economy is remittances. And they had tried bitcoin as a tool for that, and it fails miserably. So I said politely, baloney. And he really had trouble sort of getting off of that talking point and coming up with some other fanciful justification for this industry that he was supposedly ahead of. Yeah, it was very bizarre.
- [44:39]
F
Now there's been so much more revealed about how the fraud at FTX occurred. In the documentary, you actually go through and you show the line of code. Explain to our audience, if they haven't seen it yet or if they will see it, what's happening there. What was literally almost a tiny little sentence that changed the course of the success or failure of this.
- [44:59]
C
Yeah, I found that fascinating. I went to the court case against Sam here in New York several days, and so we were able to see documents produced for that case and the evidence against him. And in some ways, the scam was so simple. It was so simple. It was two lines of code. And all it did was allow the trading firm that he owned to borrow the assets from the exchange, from the people that have put money on descriptive exchange. And this particular phrase, allow, underscore, negative, which I thought was quite evocative of crypto. Allow negative. And that's all that they were doing. They were borrowing, but without their customers knowledge, the money to fund the trading firm, which actually was losing a lot of money. They were very bad at trading, which was another misperception that even I thought the trading firm must have been making tons of money, and in fact, it was losing money, so they had to borrow to fill the hole. And the lie just got bigger and bigger and bigger. I think that the way that Sam and his colleagues committed the fraud is important for us to understand in the context of the story of crypto and why it's false. What crypto says is we can replace this human thing, money, this thing that humans made up with computer code, and all you have to do is trust the code. You don't have to trust people. But it's so clear, Sam, the lie there. Because, of course, computer code doesn't fall from the sky. People write computer code. So when you trust the code, you're trusting the people that write the code. And in this case, people trusted Sam and his colleagues, and they were deceived. So I think it just actually quite vividly illustrates the intellectual fallacy of cryptocurrency at its fundamental core. You cannot replace a social construct, something that comes from human beings, with sort of a fictional, you know, computer code, you know, a code divorced from human beings.
- [47:08]
F
In the film, you testified in Congress, you tried to point all this out, and I wonder what you think now of the regulatory or deregulatory environment that has come with the most recent administration and their efforts to, well, embrace cryptocurrencies.
- [47:27]
C
It's really bad. It's. It's gotten worse, I'm afraid. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there's actually a bill that is. Seems like it's going to be marked up this week in Congress called the Clarity Act. That will accomplish what crypto's long sought, which is to be under the surveillance supervision of the cftc, the Commodities Future Trading Commission, instead of the sec, securities and Exchange Commission. I know this sounds quite academic, but the CFTC is the smaller, weaker regulatory agency. And not only would this Clarity act put them under the cftc, but it would carve out all these special rules for crypto where they really don't have to operate or be treated even like regular commodities. And they're also sort of not treated like banks, even though they're managing a lot of money and they're potentially offering interest to people for putting their money on exchanges. So they're creating a whole new set of rules for themselves, which is deeply, deeply troubling because one thing we know about crypto is it's very volatile. Price can go up, but the price can go down quite quickly. See this in a movie. The crash of 2022. This has happened repeatedly throughout crypto's history. So what happens if we create all these special rules for them? Crypto crashes again, but this time it's more tied in with our regulated financial system even more than it was in 2022. In 2022, when I testified to the Banking Committee in December of that year, I warned that if crypto got into our banking system, there would be hell to pay. And three months later, three banks failed, all tied to crypto. What happens if it's further tied into our regulated system and there's another crash and this time it contributes to taking down the whole system? That's my worry, is that first of all, we're doing it for no benefit on net to the populace. This is a zero sum game. The insiders are going to win, some people are going to win, very small number of insiders, most people are going to lose. So it's a net negative for society. And we risk, we're introducing this systemic risk that could ultimately contribute to the next subprime crisis, which is deeply ironic because of course, crypto is set up supposedly in opposition to the subprime crisis, and in effect, it could be recreating it.
- [49:53]
F
So right now, in the past year or more, we have seen a lot of major banks, the people who develop mutual funds, come out with ETFs, fund for the general public to invest in cryptocurrencies through a place that they trust a lot. So, you know, we try to say as consumers, well, listen, if, if this bank, J.P. morgan, or if It's Fidelity or Vanguard, these places that I've trusted with my 401 in my retirement. If they're telling me there's also this vehicle that has a tremendous amount of upside potential. Okay, let me put a little bit in there. So what is the end consumer sort of missing there?
- [50:35]
C
Well, first of all, it's deeply ironic because crypto was supposed to be set up to be in opposition to the horrors of Wall Street. And now the crypto industry is loving the fact that Wall street is getting in on their game. But it's really important to understand that when. Let's use the ETF as an example. Exchange traded fund. The largest Bitcoin ETF is issued by BlackRock, massive financial firm that many of your viewers will be aware of. So what BlackRock does, you put money into their BlackRock Bitcoin ETF. They then turn to coinbase a crypto exchange and say, okay, this money represents this amount of Bitcoin. BlackRock never touches the bitcoin. All they're doing is facilitating the trade and they're taking a tiny percentage, but on billions, billions of dollars. So they're making a lot of money. Wall street getting into the crypto game isn't a validation that there's anything to it other than there's money to be made. They're not making real money, not to face up. They're not taking a directional bet on whether crypto is going up or down. They're simply facilitating the gambling. It's not really a validation of the, if anything, it should be a reputation of the supposed purity of crypto. I mean, if crypto is truly a decentralized, democratized form of money, why is it being issued by BlackRock? Decentralized, democratized future of money coming from BlackRock, that seems incongruous. I do worry that the amount of money we're talking about that the sort of passive exposure to crypto or active, but through ETFs, this market has grown quite large, over $100 billion. I worry then again, in a downturn crypto to crash again. And these investors go to try to get their money out. If enough of them are going to get their money out, there may not be enough buyers on the other side. And that worries me for the investor's sake, but also for the rest of us, if this contributes to a greater downturn.
- [52:45]
F
Actor, author, writer, producer, director, Ben McKenzie. Thanks so much for joining us.
- [52:49]
C
Thanks, Hari.
- [52:52]
A
And finally, a voice of extraordinary courage, compassion and resilience. We remember the life of Dr. Edith Eager, who has died at the age of 98. Edith was just 16 years old when she was 16, sent to Auschwitz concentration camp. Against all odds she survived. And out of that suffering, Edith built a life dedicated to helping others heal. She became a renowned psychologist and best selling author whose writing on trauma, memory and forgiveness touched millions. Indeed, a remarkable life and legacy. And that's it for now. I want to thank you for watching and goodbye. Buy from New York.
- [53:36]
E
Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com
- [54:03]
C
specialoffer Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry.
- [54:09]
E
There's so much bad information that the
- [54:11]
D
really good information gets drowned.
- [54:13]
C
The new CNN Original series Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever now streaming on the CNN app.