Amanpour – "NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte"

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN Podcasts)
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour

Overview

This episode brings together critical global voices amid rising geopolitical tensions. As the UN General Assembly convenes in New York, Christiane Amanpour speaks with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, German Foreign Minister Johann Vaderfull, and Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez. The discussion centers on NATO’s response to Russian aggression, support for Ukraine, the evolving conflict in Gaza, European unity, debates over Palestinian statehood, the shifting American political landscape under President Trump, and the implications of politicization within the US Justice Department.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NATO, Ukraine, and Russian Aggression (Mark Rutte, 02:00–12:35)

• Ukrainian Resilience & Military Support

  • President Zelensky emphasized that "not international law, not cooperation, but weapons decides who to survive."
    • Rutte: "He's right on the weapons because he needs the weapons." (02:28)
  • US resumed supplying weapons to Ukraine in July, now financed by NATO allies. Europe is "stepping up" by taking on more of the financial burden (03:00).

• Security Guarantees for Ukraine

  • European nations (France, UK) are collaborating on security guarantees for Ukraine. The US has joined this conversation, but such measures can only follow a ceasefire or peace deal (03:33).

• President Trump's Approach to Russia

  • Trump is taking a "harder line" on Russia, calling it a "paper tiger," which Rutte believes hit a nerve in the Kremlin:
    • "When you see a bear, you know you see a bear... but it means that Russia is insecure." (04:23)
  • Rutte details Russia's mounting losses and supply problems, asserting, "Putin is not in a good place," and Trump is leveraging this to pressure Russia to negotiate (04:23–05:31).

• NATO's Red Lines & Airspace Defense

  • Rutte reiterates NATO’s long-standing doctrine to defend every inch of alliance airspace:
    • "We have the best military in the world. We are the strongest military alliance in world history." (09:42)
  • On Russian jets entering NATO airspace: military commanders have full authority to take "the ultimate decision" (i.e., shoot down aircraft) if there is a direct threat, but standard procedure is assessing and escorting out intruders (08:41–11:54).

• Recent Airspace Incidents

  • Dutch F35s handled drone incursions, and a recent Estonian airspace incident was managed within 12 minutes with multinational NATO response. Rutte downplays notions of divisions within NATO, stressing unity and adherence to procedure (10:00–11:54).
  • Possible Russian drone incursion into Denmark is being assessed; Rutte acknowledges concern but has confidence in NATO/Danish readiness (12:04–12:26).

Notable Quotes:

• Rutte: "President Trump hit it exactly as he should have by saying, mentioning the paper tiger... able to hit a nerve probably at the highest echelons of the Kremlin." (04:23)
• Rutte: "We have the best military in the world. We are the strongest military alliance in world history." (09:42)
• Rutte on escalation: "If there is a direct threat, they might ultimately do the ultimate thing... shoot them down, if necessary." (09:23)

2. Germany on Ukraine, Sanctions, and the Far Right (Johann Vaderfull, 13:53–23:22)

• German Support for Ukraine

  • Germany welcomes the US President’s firmer stance supporting Ukraine's fight to reclaim its territory, viewing strong Western unity as essential (14:16; 15:48).
  • Europe is financially and militarily capable of sustaining support to Ukraine, even with new schemes where US weapons are funneled via NATO allies for purchase (15:25–15:48).

• On Russian Assets and Reparations

  • Germany argues Russia "has to pay for that aggression," discussing the legality and feasibility of using frozen Russian assets for Ukraine’s reconstruction. Vaderfull clarifies that current schemes use windfall profits, not outright seizure, but stresses reparations must eventually be paid (18:15–19:27).

• Palestinian Statehood

  • Germany remains committed to a two-state solution, emphasizing negotiations over recognition at this stage. Calls for Palestinian Authority reform and buy-in from both parties (20:07).

• Rise of the Far Right & US/Germany Relations

  • Regarding US engagement with far-right AfD politicians, Vaderfull warns:
    • "Some of them do really deny what the 12 years of Nazi regime really meant for Germany... This is not the common ground we have between our countries." (22:16)

Notable Quotes:

• Vaderfull: "Russia has to pay for that aggression. They started this war. They destroyed a lot of territory of Ukraine." (18:15)
• On the AfD: "It is absolutely impossible to be in a coalition with this party. We are doing everything to prevent them from becoming a governing party in Germany." (22:16)

3. Spain’s Stance on Palestine, Migration, and NATO (Pedro Sanchez, 24:07–36:40)

• Recognition of Palestinian Statehood

  • Spain led among Western states in recognizing Palestine, citing both humanitarian and political imperatives:
    • "There's a must from politicians to give a political horizon to this crisis. And that means, in my view, that we need to recognize internationally the state of Palestine." (24:22; 24:50)
  • Proposes a global peace conference and argues for dual recognition: Palestine by the world, Israel by Arab states (25:03).

• Israel/Gaza and Counter-Terrorism Perspective

  • Sanchez draws on Spain’s history with terrorism to argue that Israel’s “war” posture is counterproductive without parallel political engagement.
    • "When you fight against terrorism, you have to do it within the legal framework. And this is not happening when it comes to Israel..." (25:03–27:52)
  • Responds to accusations of rewarding Hamas: "What we are doing is strengthening also the moderates within Palestine society..." (28:00)

• Addressing Migration and Far-Right Critiques

  • Cites Spain’s economic success with migration:
    • "During the last seven years in Spain, we received 2 million migrants. And at the same time... we've reduced the unemployment rate by 40%..." (29:53–31:13)
  • Emphasizes need for regular migration to address Europe’s demographic challenges and maintain the welfare state (31:41).

• On NATO Spending

  • Counters Trump's demand for a 5% of GDP target with focus on capability over raw spending figures, noting Spain’s significant increase in defense investment since 2018 (32:54–33:43).

• Spanish Engagement in Gaza

  • Spain and Italy are sending military assets to protect a humanitarian flotilla heading to Gaza, but Sanchez clarifies their role is "just to rescue" if attacked, not to become part of a military confrontation (35:49–36:40).

Notable Quotes:

• Sanchez: "We need to recognize internationally the state of Palestine." (24:50)
• Sanchez: "We are representing more or less 30% of the total economic growth of the European Union... also thank you, of, you know, this contribution of regular migration." (29:53)
• Sanchez on Israel: "What Prime Minister Netanyahu is doing is the opposite, is creating more unstable Middle east political situation." (34:01)

4. Weaponizing the DOJ & American Democracy (Brendan Ballou with Michelle Martin, 37:34–51:35)

• Politicization of the US Justice Department

  • DOJ’s independence is eroding; appointments and prosecutions increasingly appear politically motivated:
    • "The only thing the Justice Department has is its credibility. And to see so many attacks on that credibility so quickly, it's extraordinary." (38:03)
  • Notable shift as DOJ no longer actively pursues crimes like foreign bribery or acting as a foreign agent (40:09).

• Presidential Pressure for Political Prosecutions

  • President Trump’s public calls for prosecution of specific opponents are called "entirely unprecedented":
    • "I've certainly never heard of it... to see the President explicitly try to use the Justice Department as a weapon against his political foes..." (42:07)
  • These public statements complicate actual prosecutions, providing defense attorneys with evidence of political intent (43:08).

• High-Level Resignations and Corruption

  • Mass exodus at DOJ, notably in the Public Integrity Section, signals that "certain crimes" are now beyond legal reach; only two attorneys remain in that unit (44:48).

• “A Great Time to Be a Rich Criminal”

  • The administration is not prosecuting cases like Russian oligarchs or foreign bribery:
    • "...if you are a rich criminal in America, it is a fabulous time to be working right now." (46:07)

• Public Impact and Civic Duty

  • Ballou urges that erosion of DOJ affects all: "Due process and civil rights either apply to everyone or they apply to no one." (48:07)
  • Despite discouragement, Ballou holds some optimism: large-scale corruption is harder to ignore, and this might prompt public and legal pushback (47:59, 49:47).

Notable Quotes:

• Ballou: "It is a great time to be a rich criminal in America." (46:07)
• Ballou: "If DOJ is not interested in prosecuting crypto scammers... consumers who are harmed by that behavior can sue in state and federal court to try to get justice." (49:47)

5. Final Reflections: Science, Climate, and Optimism (Bill Nye, 52:18–52:46)

• Bill Nye, recently honored on the Walk of Fame, highlighted the importance of global collaboration on climate, energy, and internet access:
  • "There are three things we want for everybody in the world: clean water, renewably produced and reliable electricity, and access to the Internet. If we can provide that... we will be addressing climate change and preserving the quality of life for everyone on Earth." (52:18–52:46)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment Description | |--------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 02:00–12:35 | NATO Secretary General Rutte on Russia, Ukraine, NATO | | 13:53–23:22 | Germany’s Foreign Minister on Ukraine, Gaza, Far Right| | 24:07–36:40 | Spain’s PM Sanchez: Palestine, migration, NATO | | 37:34–51:35 | DOJ politicization: Ballou/Martin interview | | 52:18–52:46 | Bill Nye on climate, global cooperation |

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Rutte on Russia:
  "President Trump hit it exactly as he should have... mentioning the paper tiger... able to hit a nerve probably at the highest echelons of the Kremlin." (04:23)
• Vaderfull on frozen Russian assets:
  "Of course Russia has to pay for that aggression... the aggressor accountable for what they did." (18:15)
• Sanchez on migration:
  "During the last seven years... we received 2 million migrants. And at the same time, we have reduced the unemployment rate by 40%." (29:53)
• Ballou on the DOJ:
  "The only thing the Justice Department has is its credibility. And to see so many attacks on that credibility so quickly, it's extraordinary." (38:03)
• Nye on climate needs:
  "We want clean water, renewably produced and reliable electricity and access to the Internet. If we can provide that... we will be addressing climate change." (52:18)

Summary

This episode captures a rapidly changing and tense international moment: NATO’s steely stance against Russian provocations; European leaders’ push for action and unity on Ukraine, sanctions, and the Middle East; and stark warnings about American democracy’s health amid rising political interference in law enforcement. Across topics—from war and strategy to migration and climate—the guests stress two recurring themes: the indispensability of collective action, and the threats posed by division, both abroad and at home.