Stefano Ponzibon (3:06)

Yes, indeed. I think, Paula, that is the number one question on everyone's mind right now in Caracas, isn't it, whether she will be able to succeed in where so many other Venezuelan opposition leaders have failed in the past, which is building an international coalition and finally see through a regime change to see through a liberation, a return for Venezuelan to democracy. I think that in the first term, like in the short term, it will be probably better for Maria Karina to actually stay out. She will probably hold meetings with several, with several world leaders. Surely Donald Trump is on her list. I'm aware that they are trying to have that conversation and that she intends to go to Washington at some time in the future. But also, let's not underestimate her power to bring together to bridge a coalition, especially with European powers, maybe other countries here in, in Latin America, if she can sort of patch up the different approaches from the European Union, the Holy See, the White House and other countries, I think of Argentina, I think of Colombia, I think of Mexico and Brazil, many different countries who have interests in Venezuela and have tried in the past to mediate for a peaceful solution to the, to the situation here in this country and yet have always failed. So in the short term, probably will be better for her to be out and having those conversations face to face in person. In the long term, well, we have said many people have failed before her. Perhaps the long term remains, remains to be seen for sure.

Paula Newton (4:43)

Yeah, definitely in doubt. And you, do you make a good point there. It has been difficult for all the nuance that comes out of, whether it's Latin American allies or those in Europe to really bring this and coalesce around one way for the opposition to really make inroads. I want to go back to this issue of the oil tanker. President Trump said that other things are happening. Where is this confrontation headed? Because it is not just Venezuela, but engulfing, you know, the entire region at this point.

Stefano Ponzibon (5:10)

Yes, indeed. But you could perhaps see there a change in tactics like I think that, you know, the White House has told us that they went after that particular tanker because it was carrying oil that was of course, under sanction from Venezuela through Cuba and then onto Iran, and that that tanker was in particular sanctioned by the Biden administration in 2022. However, you know, going after Maduro's purse, which is what you do when you seize tankers that sell oil in the black market, is definitely more palatable for an international coalition that is trying to, to see the end of the Maduro's government in this country than blowing up alleged narco trafficking speedboats without showing any proof. So perhaps this change in tactics is also a way for the Trump administration, for the White House or for the United States as a whole in taking a more cohesive leadership across, across the region while you know, Trump said yesterday that he thinks Colombia would be next and he wants other countries to step up their anti narcotics and anti drug trafficking programs. But clearly going after Maduro's particular himself, going after the finances that allow Nicolas Maduro to remain in power here in Venezuela is definitely something that will be better seen more, more seen more positively by perhaps Madrid, by France, countries that have, countries that have raised concerns about their strategies so far.

Paula Newton (6:38)

Stefano, grateful to you as you continue to watch events so closely there from Caracas. Appreciate it. And also in Oslo today, Leopoldo Lopez, who you may recall was the face of the Venezuelan opposition for years. Lopez's fight cost him his freedom. He was in prison before fleeing the country in 2020. He, he told me what this moment means to him. Leopoldo Lopez, welcome to the program. Appreciate it.

Leopoldo Lopez (7:05)

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Paula Newton (7:08)

I really am curious just to hear the emotions that you must be feeling right now. What does it mean to you seeing Maria Corina Machado appear in Oslo to receive her Nobel Prize?

Leopoldo Lopez (7:22)

Well, it's very emotional for all Venezuelans because it's not just a prize, it's a Nobel Peace Prize. But it's not just the Nobel Peace Prize is a recognition of a fight for freedom. And it's a recognition that there can be no peace if there is no freedom and democracy in Venezuela. So for all of us, it's a recognition that this fight that's been going for more than two decades for democracy, freedom and human rights in Venezuela, it's reaching to a point where we can finally, finally transition to democracy. And of course, Maria Corina being the voice of, of this hope for all of Venezuelans. It's also very empowering for this very difficult struggle that we've had, but with a lot of hope in the near future.

Paula Newton (8:10)

And I hear you on the hope, but of course, as you said, it has been quite a lengthy struggle and it continues. Maria Machado left Venezuela as many migrants have reportedly traveling through Venezuela in disguise, braving the weather to travel by boat to Caracao, finally a flight to the US and then on to Oslo. I mean, think about that journey. What does it mean for Venezuelans when they see her escape route and what she had to go through?

Leopoldo Lopez (8:38)

Well, as you say, it's the way that millions of Venezuelans have left our country. Venezuela has a population of 30 million people and 10 million Venezuelans have been forced into exile. It's the largest migration crisis. Venezuelans crossed the border and walk from Colombia to Central America or to Ecuador and other South American countries. So it's a struggle that is very intimate to every Venezuelan family. The struggle that we go through in order to leave our country, to find hope. But as she has said once and again throughout these last hours, she will be back. And she will be back to Venezuela, as we will all go back to Venezuela to reconstruct a democratic and free Venezuela.

Paula Newton (9:28)

I will point out the obvious. You are not back yet. You haven't been back. It has been more than five years. There is a lot of, you know, personal sacrifice and significance. I want to listen now to what Maria said just a little while ago.

Julieta Martinelli (9:40)

Listen, I couldn't sleep last night going.

Paula Newton (9:44)

Over and over again that first instant.

Julieta Martinelli (9:48)

When I saw my children. And for many weeks I had been.

Susan Glasser (9:54)

Thinking of that possibility.

Julieta Martinelli (9:57)

And which one of them I would hug first. And to tell you something, I hugged them, the three at the same time. And it's been one of the most extraordinary spiritual moments of my life.

Paula Newton (10:14)

Spiritual moment. I know how much you really can tap into that same emotion. Leopoldo, can you speak to the sacrifices that she's made in hiding? Apparently she has seen hardly anyone in months and months.

Leopoldo Lopez (10:30)

Yeah, she was in clandestine for over a year after Maduro stole the election in 2024. Everybody that was a voice against the dictatorship had to go into hiding. And she, of course, had to go into hiding. But she kept her voice, she kept the spirit of the struggle alive. And now that she is out of Venezuela, but with a commitment to go back as we all will, strengthens that voice and it strengthens the commitment not just of Venezuelans, but of the free world. Because really what this prize recognition means is a recognition of the free world, of the democratic world, that there needs to be change. Yesterday we heard two tremendous speeches at the Nobel Prize ceremony. And the speech given by the Nobel Peace Prize was an X ray of what's happened in Venezuela over the past years and why Nicolas Maduro must go. That's how the Norwegian leader of the Nobel Peace Prize ended his speech, saying that Maduro needs to go. And that has been for years our fight. And now having that resonate here in Oslo through the Nobel Peace Prize is very meaningful, very powerful. And we hope and we know it will translate into concrete actions. Us Venezuelans, we have tried everything. Many of us have gone to prison. I spent seven years in prison and confinement. I was separated from my family like millions of Venezuelans have. We have taken the streets thousands of times. We have gone to negotiation processes. We have used diplomacy, sanctions, and of course, voting and going to an election that we actually won. But in spite of all of this, Maduro still in power. Why? Because he's an autocrat. He's an Arco terrorist that uses power to hold on, uses the gun and power to. To hold on to his position.

Paula Newton (12:37)

Leopoldo, you've articulated your sacrifices for so many months. I've been witness to a lot of those sacrifices over many years in Venezuela. And I've seen the opposition, unfortunately, even with hope and inspiration, still fail. I know what you're saying, that you believe this is a pivotal point for Venezuela. But how can you be sure? We've been here before with Venezuela. There is still a risk that it could all end in failure, is there not?

Leopoldo Lopez (13:04)

Of course there is a risk. But the greatest risk of all is to stop fighting. That's the greatest risk of all. And to stop fighting because of losing hope, it's also a risk. And when the story about the struggle of the Venezuelan people is written, it will be a story of resilience. It will be a story of commitment. It will be a story of how we reinvented ourselves over and over to continue the fight. And let me assure you something. We will continue to fight until Venezuela is free. I know that's the spirit of Maria Corina and that's the spirit of millions of Venezuelans. We will not stop fighting until Venezuela is free. And Venezuela will be a peaceful nation, a prosperous nation, only if Maduro leaves. And today we are seeing another window of opportunity for that. As you say, we have been in third base many times. But scoring freedom is not a straight line. It's difficult. And that's why we are confronting an autocrat. This is not a democratic election with the rule of law or with fair gameplay. We are confronting a narco terrorist regime that traffics cocaine, that contrabands, that persecutes, incarcerates, tortures and kills people. Many of my friends today are in prison. Thousands of families have their loved ones in prison without even having a phone call. In more than a year, thousands of people have been detained with no contact whatsoever. So that's what we are confronting. We are confronting a regime that uses force to stay in power.

Paula Newton (14:48)

Leopoldo, I'm glad that you articulated exactly how difficult and how complicated this is. In fact, Bloomberg reports that Maria Corinna was actually aided by members of Maduro's own regime. Can you confirm that? And even if you can't confirm it, what does that say to you?

Leopoldo Lopez (15:09)

Well, that's for Maria Corina to give the details of how she escaped. However, I can tell you that there is a Fracture within the military in Venezuela. I myself was able to escape imprisonment because there was the support from the military and the police in 2019. And now we know that the military also wants change. Why I say this because last year we had an election and in the military bases where the military personnel and their families voted, it was exactly the same proportion. Edmundo Gonzalez 70% Maduro 30%. So the military in Venezuela, the police in Venezuela are Venezuelans and they suffer like Venezuelans, and they want change as all Venezuelans. However, they are the most look and surveilled institution. There are tremendous consequences for the military that even say something that the regime dislikes. So this is the case until it's not. Will the military flip? I believe it will. Will there be a fracture? I believe it will. When will that happen? It will happen when there is an action that might regenerate that reaction. And we have seen that in the past and we hope that we see that very soon. And we see it as a definite transition to democracy.

Paula Newton (16:35)

Now, the US Administration and the military are gaming that out for themselves. I don't have to remind you that for the better part of a generation, you have been steadfast in calling for peaceful resistance. In that context, how do you justify US Actions at sea? They continue to repatriate Venezuelans who risk further oppression by the Maduro regime. I mean, do you back everything the United States is doing at this hour?

Leopoldo Lopez (17:03)

Well, I believe that the best migration policy towards Venezuela is a transition to democracy that will for sure stop Venezuelans leaving our country. That, as I said before, a third of the country have left Venezuela over the past 10 years. Hundreds of thousands will return to Venezuela, and that will be the best migration policy. And with respect to the deployment of the U.S. navy in the coast of Venezuela, I believe that it's correct to understand that we are not facing just an autocrat who violates human rights and who is responsible for a complex humanitarian crisis. We are facing the head of a narco cartel and it needs to be confronted as such. And this is not new. This is not new. Twelve years ago, alongside with Maria Corina Machado, on January 23rd of 2014, I said exactly this, that Nicolas Maduro is a terrorist that represses the Venezuelan people and that leads a drug cartel. And for saying this, 12 years ago, I was sentenced to 14 years of imprisonment and spent seven years in confinement. So this is something that we know as a fact in Venezuela. So we are Leopoldo.

Paula Newton (18:22)

But Leopoldo, everything that you're saying, as you said, you've said before the military action that we've seen now is unprecedented by the US Government. Do you back the US Government under any circumstances? Because you know more than most that the vulnerable in Venezuela, if there is any kind of US Military land strikes, are the ones who will suffer the consequences.

Leopoldo Lopez (18:44)

Well, not necessarily. I believe that there can be many tactical actions that have no collateral damage and that has been seen in other conflicts. I have no precise information of the tactics, but I believe that there can be tactical decisions with no collateral damage that will help to take out the regime to transition with the legitimacy of the election that took place in 2024 and that will help the Venezuelan people to be free. The one thing that unites the Venezuelan people above anything else is the hope that Maduro leaves power and that his regime is leaves the control of the Venezuelan institute. That hope for freedom, that hope for democracy is what unites the Venezuelan people the most. So yes, we support the pressure that is being inflicted on the Maduro regime. We support the fact that the oil that was being used to fund this repression machinery, that it's persecuting, carcelling, torturing and killing people because that's what money goes for, is part of that operation to pressure the Maduro regime. And this is not the first time I've said this. We've said it many times, but I said it a month ago because I said exactly what I am saying now. Maduro took away my nationality. They went to my house and destroyed my house. And now they are threatening Venezuelans that if they express themselves in support to the pressure that is being deployed against Maduro will be consequences. So I believe that the most important thing is freedom and democracy to Venezuela and that's what the Nobel Peace Prize is contributing to.

Paula Newton (20:40)

Leopoldo Lopez, we must leave it there. Thank you so much for being on the program again.

Leopoldo Lopez (20:45)

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Paula Newton (20:48)

Stay with cnn. We'll be right back after a quick break.

Susan Glasser (20:56)

This year CNN podcasts produced more than 170,000 minutes of content covering breaking news, investigations, interviews and everything in between. From the headlines that start your day with the five things you need to know.

Michelle Martin (21:09)

Hey everyone.

Susan Glasser (21:10)

It's audie to conversations that change how we see the world. ChatGPT says the word delve at way.

Julieta Martinelli (21:16)

Higher rates than usual.

Paula Newton (21:17)

What etymologist was like.

Julieta Martinelli (21:18)

Let's figure that out.

Susan Glasser (21:20)

With deep investigations that dig beneath the headlines. What happened to James Gibson was more.

Leopoldo Lopez (21:25)

Than violence at the hands of police.

Susan Glasser (21:27)

And human experiences that remind us of what matters most.

Leopoldo Lopez (21:31)

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper on my Podcast all there is. We explore grief and loss in all.

Susan Glasser (21:36)

Its complexities through carpool, pickup lines, airport waits, morning commutes, or evening walks, you chose to spend your time with us.

Michelle Martin (21:43)

And for that, we're grateful.

Susan Glasser (21:45)

So from all of us at CNN Podcasts, here's to another year of stories that matter. Thank you for listening.

Paula Newton (21:59)

And now to the United States, where a federal judge has ordered the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from ICE custody. Now, pardon me, he has ordered that to happen immediately, according to a court filing. It's a significant development in the case concerning the Salvadoran man mistakenly deported this year before being returned to the United States. Now, the ICE raids across America are leaving a lot of confusion and despair in their wake as families are caught up in the dragnet. One small project in rural Georgia is hoping to provide support to the loved ones of those detained, so many of whom have no criminal record. El Rejuyo is a hospitality house near the Stuart Detention Center. It's believed to be the only such house in the nation. And a new report by Latino usa, Futuro Investigates and the Marshall Project gives us an inside view. It follows the volunteers who run the house and the families they serve. Journalists Julieta Martinelli and Shannon Heffernan. And it is good to have both of you on the program. Welcome.

Julieta Martinelli (23:08)

Thank you.

Shannon Heffernan (23:09)

Thank you.

Paula Newton (23:10)

Juliet, I do want to begin with you. There are so many countless ways to cover immigration enforcement right now. Raids policy, the deportation numbers. Why this? Why choose to anchor this story in this small rural refuge in Georgia? You know, what did you believe this place could reveal about what's unfolding in the United States?

Shannon Heffernan (23:36)

Yeah, as you mentioned, we've been covering almost every angle of immigration. But I think one of the things that we really wanted to focus on with this story was looking at sort of the ways that people are coming together to try and resolve some of the issues that come up with the increased enforcement, the very high number of people that are now in ICE custody. And so El Refugio is special for a number of reasons, but I think in particular the fact that Georgia has three large detention centers. Stuart used to be the largest detention center at one point, and it's not anymore. It's in a very rural place. And I think that therein lies the challenge. Right. When you are isolating people, when you're building detention centers in these very rural areas, it is very difficult to know what's happening inside. It is difficult for people to get visitors. And so I think for us, we just kind of wanted to be able to explore what was happening in this small town in South Georgia, but also to be able to talk to the families, to hear from the families and to hear from the volunteers who are actually going inside the detention center and have a sense of what's going on.

Paula Newton (24:46)

And we will get to the stories of some of those volunteers and the family members. Shannon, you've covered these detention centers for years as well. The Stewart Detention center itself, as we were just mentioning. Right. It is one of the largest in the United States. From your reporting, what makes Stewart so central to understanding this moment in enforcing, in enforcement under Trump's second term? Because this kind of enforcement has been going on in the United States for decades. But it's different now.

Julieta Martinelli (25:15)

Yeah, it is different now. And I think that, you know, many of the conditions we see are conditions that you might have seen under any administration. We have heard about poor medical care inside detention centers, including Stuart. We've heard about crowded conditions in Stuart and other places. But I think one of the things that really stood out to me is how much it feels for a lot of these folks, like, the cruelty is the point that they're in these detention centers in these bad conditions because they're being encouraged to leave the country voluntarily, whether or not they actually have legal claims to stay. And I think detention is an essential part of Trump's plans. If he wants to deport as many people as he says he wants to deport, you need these detention centers there not only to hold people while they're waiting to be deported, but also to coerce people to leave voluntarily and to be as a kind of warning to folks not to come or to leave if they're here.

Paula Newton (26:14)

And Shannon, you know, you just said it. Cruelty is the point when you look at Stuart itself, Shannon, this is civil. This is supposed to be civil detention, but it looks exactly like a jail from your description. I mean, razor wire, metal toilets, not enough facilities. I mean, people apparently defecating in showers because there aren't enough toilets. I mean, many people are really confessing to these kinds of conditions. But what verification have you been able to get? What the conditions that many people face day in and day out.

Julieta Martinelli (26:47)

So this is a really key point you're bringing up here. First of all, yes, these are not supposed to be prisons or jails, but they're very, very similar. When the families visit their loved ones behind a piece of glass in a uniform that looks very much like a prison uniform, it feels like a prison in terms of verification. That's one of the really big Challenges right now, a lot of the oversight that has been provided under previous administration or even just easier flow of like legal representation inside meant that there were more eyeballs who could report back what was happening. A lot of that infrastructure has disappeared. So it becomes harder to verify this information. And we know historically that when there's not a spotlight on a place, when you don't know what's happening, those are the kinds of conditions in which abuse and misconduct flourish. So as a journalist, I'm always concerned when oversight disappears.

Paula Newton (27:38)

Yeah. In terms of accountability and oversight, which members of Congress here in the United States have pointed out is a problem. Julieta Stewart is a tiny, isolated county, but one that financially benefits from every person detained there. How is, you know, this kind of geography of this little town, Stuart in the middle of it? How is that part of the story?

Shannon Heffernan (28:01)

Yeah, it's so interesting, right? So Stuart has less than 1,000 residents. There are on any given day, 2,000 or more people inside Stuart. So when you think about it, this prison actually gets double the population of this very small town now with this very small town that is having a lot of economic issues. When you show up to the town for the first time, the first thing you notice is there are no grocery stores, there are no hotels, no motels, no short term rentals. There's nowhere to sleep, there's nowhere to eat. The nearest place to eat and sleep or rent a place to stay overnight for visitation is about an hour away. And so this is incredibly challenging for the families. Some of the families that we met in our reporting had traveled eight or nine hours to be able to get down to Lumpkin, Georgia. And so imagine you get there on a Saturday, you have the opportunity to visit the next day because visitations start over on Sunday. But there's nowhere to sleep, there's nowhere to stay. There's a very tiny gas station with two pumps in town where people would sometimes park their cars. So Refugio, in a way, kind of has sort of created a space to sort of try and solve some of these issues. But I think it's in a way makes you sort of realize just how isolated these folks are when family cannot get to you, when family cannot travel, when you make the prison so far away, so put it in a place that is so inhospitable to visitors. I think in a way this feeds into what Shannon was saying. Right. You have these reports of terrible conditions, but it's very difficult to get the reports out. It's difficult if people can't speak to their families. There are no lawyers in this town.

Paula Newton (29:44)

Yeah. And, Julieta, we are looking at pictures, in fact, of El Fugo right there. In terms of what this place itself means to these families. You have been speaking to them and a reminder that some of the people that are detained, they have been in the United States for decades, many of them.

Shannon Heffernan (30:03)

Yeah, that's actually an excellent point. I think one of the things I've been covering, immigration now almost 20 years. One of the things that I found the most surprising and shocking was the fact that almost every family that we spoke to that weekend, there were 60 visitors. The weekend that Shannon and I spent at El Refugio, almost every single one of those families, the person that was detained had been in the US at least a decade, if not decades. We spoke with a family whose father arrived in the US when he was very young to work in agriculture and to be a farm worker who is now in his late 50s. So this man arrived when he was a child and has been here, built a whole life in this country. So that's something that we're seeing a lot. Families that have been here for a very long time are suddenly put in this situation. It's not just people that are crossing the border. It's people that have families, businesses, and that are doing positive things in the community. And also people that we spoke with that told us that their loved one had a work permit, had a driver's license when they were detained and arrested, had green card, had an adjustment application going through immigration in this moment. So people that were actually trying to do things the right way, it didn't matter.

Paula Newton (31:23)

Yeah. And we do have, you know, verified reports that U.S. veterans who served in the military for years and years are at the Stuart Detention center at this hour. Shannon, you know, in terms of LV Hugo itself, it is really built on this concept of radical hospitality. What does that mean in terms of the volunteers, how they're trained? You know, when I was reading through some of the documentation, it almost seemed like place of refuge for the kind of trauma that some of these families go through when they go see their loved ones.

Julieta Martinelli (31:56)

I'm so glad you're bringing this up because, you know, we've talked a lot about the tragedy of Stuart Detention center and what people are facing, but it.

Shannon Heffernan (32:03)

Was also just, like, really beautiful to.

Julieta Martinelli (32:06)

Be in this place that had opened its doors for anyone who needed their services. A lot of the volunteers we spoke to talked about how in this moment in the United States, it can be very challenging to see things you disagree with happening all around you and not knowing how to take action. They weren't able to change the entire immigration system, but they could show up and do laundry and change bedsheets. They could make a sandwich. They could find some concrete way to serve their neighbors, to serve the people that they cared about, even if they were strangers. So I think that one of the things that was really striking about visiting this place and the executive director of the hospitality house said this is like in the midst of all this tragedy, there is something you can do, there are ways you can act. And I found that very striking. And I thought it was this sort of radical hospitality meant to them. It wasn't only having food and shelter. There are people there who spoke your language sometimes, right? Like we met one family who, where the grandmother spoke Russian, and since her son had been arrested, there were no other Russian speakers in the household. She just not been able to speak to anybody. And there was a volunteer who spoke Russian at the house that weekend. And just to see the relief on her face, being able to talk to somebody about what had happened to her in the last weeks, that was really, really meaningful, I'm sure.

Paula Newton (33:36)

Very meaningful. Point of support for that woman and others. Julieta, you know, Shannon said it, right? The cruelty is the point is something that she said in terms of there's something systemic at work here. But, Julieta, I have to ask you, if you pose it from the way that the Trump administration wants to see results, right? Crossings are down, detentions are up. The administration says deterrence is the point. If fewer people are attempting to come because of these conditions, does that mean that this strategy is actually successful? Successful from the point of view of the Trump administration?

Shannon Heffernan (34:14)

I mean, it's hard to get into the head. I guess you could say that, right, if we're just looking at numbers. But I think the more important thing is the effects that it's having on American citizens. You know, the vast majority of people that are currently in ICE custody are members of a mixed status household, which means American citizen partners, husband, wife, children, businesses that are being run, homes that are having to get sold money that's not going into the economy. Right. I think it's very. You have to kind of weigh it in a bigger way. And I will say one thing that I think is really important to think about is what do we want to stand for as a country? What do we want to stand for? And the promises that Trump made really revolved around detaining people that were criminals. The promise wasn't just locking people up, it was locking up criminals. And as we know, I believe the current number, the latest number, is that 73% of people in ICE custody do not have a criminal record. So in that sense, I will say it's an utter failure.

Paula Newton (35:23)

And I only have about 30 seconds left, Juliet But I do want to ask you, some people admit to having voted for the Trump administration. Right. And they now are wondering what their decision has brought to their own families.

Shannon Heffernan (35:36)

Yeah. And that's one of the stories. One of the people that we spoke to while we were there had a very similar situation. She heard criminals. She thought, I want a safe community. She didn't realize that that would mean her father, who was a refugee.

Paula Newton (35:51)

Giulietta Martinelli, Shannon Heffernan, we will continue to follow this story closely. Again, extension of those detention facilities goes on in the United States. We are grateful to both of you. Thanks so much.

Julieta Martinelli (36:04)

Thank you.

Shannon Heffernan (36:04)

Thanks for having us.

Paula Newton (36:06)

And we will be right back with more in a moment. Now, the Trump administration's immigration crackdown is just one example of the whirlwind changes in Washington this year. From aid and foreign policy to trade and beyond, Trump has upended US Doctrine, transforming institutions and redefining America's place in the world. Staff writer at the New Yorker, Susan Glasser joins Michelle Martin to cut through the noise and identify the defining themes of the past ten months.

Michelle Martin (36:43)

Thanks, Paula. Susan Glasser, thank you so much for joining us once again.

Susan Glasser (36:47)

Oh, it's great to be with you.

Michelle Martin (36:48)

So obviously we've called you because you followed, you know, politics and policy in Washington and around the world for many, many years. What about this year stands out to you? And I know it's hard to pick because there have been so many consequential events this year, you know, one after another. But when you just think about the year, on the whole, what stands out to you?

Susan Glasser (37:09)

Yeah, I mean, look, if the goal was to overwhelm, let's just say they're succeeding and then some. You know, if anything, the year has been characterized by a level of disruption and even at times, destruction. Washington that is something that I suspect we'll all be looking back to for a long, long time.

Michelle Martin (37:33)

I'm thinking about the first part of the year is that I don't even know what to call it. It's not an agency, this kind of ad hoc group led by Elon Musk, whose main project seemed to be to destroy humanitarian aid around the world as well as federal agencies. And then, of course, the, the tariff policy, the mass pardoning of January 6th defendants on inauguration Day These moves to reshape the federal bureaucracy, particularly with an eye to things that have been disturbing to conservatives for years, like the Department of Education and things of that sort. Is there anything that constitutes a through line through all of that?

Susan Glasser (38:20)

Yeah, you know, that is, I think, important for us to try to reckon with. And as I think of it, you know, in some ways, Trump 1.0, you could say, was the completion of what Trump's son in law called the hostile takeover of the Republican Party. And that was accomplished really, you know, by a couple years into Trump's term, I would say, you know, as figures like John McCain left the scene and were replaced by enablers or, you know, supporters of Trump and his MAGA movement. I would say if that was 1.0, Trump 2.0 is the hostile takeover of Washington and the turning of the executive branch of the US Federal government into an extraordinary personal platform for the expanded powers and reach, or overreach, as the case may be, of one man. This is something that, again, I think we'll be studying for many, many decades to come, which is the incredible aggregation of power in the of one man in the Oval Office and the idea that the Congress has largely stepped aside, including even abdicating many of its constitutionally assigned functions. There was a moment recently that was so telling when President Trump said, you know, I feel like I'm the Speaker of the House as well as the president too. And in some ways you can't argue with that.

Michelle Martin (39:44)

Of all the things that we are thinking about here, when you think about the year, there are things that are really visible inside Washington, there are things that are visible outside of Washington. What are the things you think that might be most visible outside of Washington?

Susan Glasser (39:59)

He said that he was going to be the president who was going to bring back the economy, the president who was going to stop inflation, the president who was going to restore kind of the way things were before the COVID pandemic disrupted the US and the world. And that, I think is where it's pretty remarkable that he's lost the very people arguably who brought him back to the presidency, those kind of non frequent voters, the independents, the young people who thought, okay, well, things aren't going well. And I'm really unhappy about the state of things in the economy. I'm unhappy about how much I have to pay. And here we are not even a year later. And in fact, Americans are even more upset about the state of the economy than they were a year ago when they elected Donald Trump to fix it. And he promised a Lot of things that he was going to do on day one. He promised he was going to settle the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. He hasn't done that. But most importantly, from the point of view, I think, of the American electorate, he promised that he was going to bring prices down on day one of his second presidency and restore the economy. Instead, where we are is we have essentially the same level of inflation now that we did a year ago when Donald Trump was campaigning against the Joe Biden economy. He said the 3% inflation at that time was literally like the worst inflation in the history of the world, which of course, it wasn't.

Michelle Martin (41:31)

Let's talk about immigration. His polls have declined. Maybe not with his core supporters, because he's got a core group of supporters who seem to support him no matter what. But it does seem that there are a lot of people who are disturbed by the way his immigration policy is unfolding. You know, they're seeing these images of people, women being dragged from their cars. They're seeing parents being arrested in front of their kids when they drop them off. Now, how do you think this is playing? How do you assess how this is going?

Susan Glasser (42:01)

Yeah, I think it's really important. It was something not only that Trump campaigned on, but was very much a mobilizing factor for his core supporters. And I remember very vividly being at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, and when he said mass deportation now, there were pre printed signs. And it was one of the only things, aside from the mention of his name itself, that that audience really went crazy for. They were absolutely stirred up and rallied by that, and they held up the mass deportation now signs. The other issue, by the way, that really seemed to energize that core group of supporters. It was any mention of, like, men playing women's sports or trans issues. Those were the two things that I think really crystallized the culture war as it played out in the 2024 campaign. So flash forward he's executing on that. As you said, we're now living in this world of these kind of horizons. Horrible shock videos, right? Do you avert your gaze? Do you feel that you need to look at them? Because it's what's happening in our country right now. I mean, it's a painful aspect of kind of the visual backdrop, if you will, to the Trump 2.0 presidency. You also mentioned Trump's declining poll numbers. And this, I think, is very significant. Again, as I'm looking for differences between the first term and the second term. Donald Trump in the first term was a Very unpopular president. He was a historically unpopular president, the most unpopular since public polling was taken okay, consistently. What's different is that back in the first term, Trump was generally getting pretty good marks on things like the economy, even where he was seen as personally polarizing or unpleasant to voters. So they gave him more credit for at least delivering on the economy in some ways, even if they didn't like what kind of public Persona he had and the polarization. Now, interestingly enough, Donald Trump is even more underwater in the polls on things like the economy than he is overall in his negative approval ratings. Gallup just found that Trump had the lowest numbers of his two presidencies, including a 60% disapproval rating, but even more disapproval on the economy, even on immigration, where, broadly speaking, even many Democrats and independents had supported the idea of closing the border or making it less permeable. I think a lot of Democrats believe their own party screwed up and that Joe Biden screwed up as president, to be blunt, in sort of allowing out of control illegal migration into the country. And so while there was a residual support in the public, it's these tactics that you mentioned, Michelle, I think, that have really begun to cause a backlash. You know, the idea that it's not just the criminal illegal migrants that Donald Trump initially told us that he was gonna go after, but that it's reaching into essentially peaceful civil society in ways that people do not support and did not expect.

Michelle Martin (45:15)

The other interesting thing that's happened this week that is related to immigration is the National Security Strategy was released, and it cites immigration to Europe as a problem. The way it was described is what is it? The erasure of civilization due to immigration. How do you understand that? And what does this tell us about Trump's kind of view of the relationship that he thinks the United States should have with the rest of the world?

Susan Glasser (45:45)

Yeah, I mean, that is a pretty radical document. It's a pretty disruptive document. It has a worldview that is very, very incompatible with the worldviews of any modern president, whether Democrat or Republican. It essentially abdicates and sort of says, we're moving on from the idea of the United States as this global superpower and guarantor of the liberal order. You know, I'm old enough to remember when American presidents used to speak of exporting democracy to the world. Donald Trump is now talking about exporting right wing democracy, racism to Europe, which is really something remarkable, as you might expect. This has occasioned an incredible amount of both backlash and I think, really existential level soul searching among European leaders because really, not just since the end of the Cold War, but since the end of World War II. It's this partnership between the United States and Western Europe that has been the anchor of global security in many ways. And what Donald Trump is saying is that actually in my first term, I talked about pay more for the security. Now I'm saying, yeah, I'm not really in on the deal. And it tells you in many ways much of what you need to know, that the people who have reacted favorably to the new national security strategy of the United States of America is a Kremlin. And you had both the Kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, and the former president, Dmitry Medvedev, welcoming this national security strategy with open arms, saying that it was explicitly echoing what Russia itself has said about security. It talks about ending a world in which NATO is continuing to expand. It talks about the US Essentially destabilizing the governments that it doesn't like of many of its Western European allies and working from within those countries to depose those leaders. I mean, that's just a remarkable statement. It led one senior European I spoke with this week to say, you know, my concern isn't so much anymore that the United States is not on this, you know, not working to help Ukraine and Europe, but that the United States is now actively switching sides.

Michelle Martin (48:06)

The presidentshow, can we put this, seems to be very committed to enriching himself, if I can put it that way, in this current administration. I mean, in his first term in office, he said that he'd put his holdings into a blind trust. But in this administration, in this current term, there doesn't seem to be much concern about appearances of conflicts. It doesn't seem to be much concern about whether his policies dovetail particularly nicely with his own personal financial interests. Would you say that that's true?

Susan Glasser (48:50)

Yeah. I'm glad that you brought this up because I believe that it is very important. The levels of self enrichment and the essentially the mobilization of the US Presidency as a tool for the enrichment of Donald Trump and his family is a really remarkable aspect of this second term. And again, the scale and scope of that enrichment. We are talking billions of dollars that are coming into the pockets of the Trump family and those in his inner circle.

Michelle Martin (49:24)

Like, and how is that working? How is that happening? And is that visible to the public? Is that the kind of thing that the public can see? Yeah, if they're interested, yeah.

Susan Glasser (49:33)

There's been incredible investigative reporting that has produced some really eye popping examples. For example, Donald Trump Sons and Steve Witkoff's Sons Witkoff being his personal golfing buddy, real estate developer turned peace envoy both in Middle east and Russia. At the same time, the Trump family and the Witkoff family are doing business in with the Arab Gulf Emirates at the same time that they're negotiating major international accords and actually twinning these things so that Trump and his family are talking about deals, billions of dollars invested in a new crypto company run by the Trump kids and the Witkoff kids at the same time, Trump and Witkoff were in the Middle east for the first visit foreign visit of Donald Trump's second term. That's one example of many. There are new Trump real est development in countries around the world. Trump branded real estate developments in countries around the world that have major business with the Trump administration. He hosted the people who gave money to a Trump crypto enterprise for dinner at his club outside Washington D.C. and then brought them in for a personal tour of the White House. So, you know, again, it's the co mingling that is really remarkable. We know, for example, that the Saudi government entities basically gave $2 billion in seed money to Jared Kushner's new investment fund at the end of Trump's first term. Well, did all that money come from Saudi Arabia? Maybe it's coming from other foreign entities. The answer is that we don't know.

Michelle Martin (51:23)

Susan Glaser, thank you so much for talking with us again.

Susan Glasser (51:26)

Great to be with you. Thank you.

Paula Newton (51:29)

And finally for us, he's graced our screens as a tap dancing chimney sweep on the streets of London, a father who invents a magical flying car in the fictional land of Bulgaria, and an evil security guard at New York's Museum of Natural History. This week, American actor Dick van Dyke turns 100 years old after a lifetime of singing, dancing and joking his way into the hearts of generation after generation. Now, back in 2013, he spoke to CNN about his greatest achievements and the enduring impact of his films.

Leopoldo Lopez (52:07)

The Dick Van Dyke Show. The five years with Carl and Mary were the most fun I ever had, the most creative period in my life because it was just rewriting and it was a party every day. And of course, Mary Poppins and Chitty Bang Bang for some reason have lasted. They kind of have legs. Each generation of kids who come along like the movie. And I'm recognized in the market by little children, which just tickles me to death.

Paula Newton (52:35)

He's right about that. Now, asked about his secret to a long and happy life, he told the Times of London. Dance your way to breakfast and always be on the lookout for romance. Happy birthday to Dick Van Dyke, because Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, we love you. And how far would you go to stand up to tyranny? Make sure to tune in to tomorrow's show where Chris Sean will examine that question with journalist and author Jonathan Friedland about his new book, the Traitor's An Extraordinary Story of Hidden Resistance inside Nazi Germany. That does it for us. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. I want to thank you for watching and goodbye. From New York.

Shannon Heffernan (53:35)

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. The fastest growing neurodegenerative disease in the world is Parkinson's disease.

Leopoldo Lopez (53:44)

We already have 11.8 million people with Parkinson's. We're now growing as a neurodegenerative disease faster than Alzheimer's disease. That should grab Everybody's attention.

Paula Newton (53:56)

That's Dr. Michael Okun.

Susan Glasser (53:58)

We're gonna take a deep dive into Parkinson's disease.

Shannon Heffernan (54:02)

What is it exactly?

Leopoldo Lopez (54:03)

What are its root causes?

Shannon Heffernan (54:05)

Where does treatment stand?

Paula Newton (54:07)

And are there ways to reduce your risk?

Shannon Heffernan (54:10)

Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now.

Paula Newton (54:13)

Wherever you get your podcasts.