Palestinian Politician Nasser al-Kidwa

Summary

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Amanpour – Episode Summary

Date: October 16, 2025
Topic: The Future of Gaza and Palestinian Governance
Guests: Nasser al-Kidwa (Palestinian politician, former Foreign Minister for the Palestinian Authority)
Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the political future of Gaza in the immediate aftermath of a fragile Israeli-Hamas ceasefire. Christiane Amanpour interviews Nasser al-Kidwa, a key Palestinian statesman and nephew of Yasser Arafat, about his vision for governance in Gaza, the rumor of his involvement in a technocratic management team, and his peace plan co-authored with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. The conversation covers prospects for Palestinian unity, postwar stabilization, criticism of international trusteeship proposals, the necessity of elections, and reflections on leadership dynamics among Palestinians.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Political Situation in Gaza and Personal Context

• Return to Ramallah After Exile:
  Al-Kidwa, recently returned from four years of self-exile, underscores the gravity of the crisis:

  "Of course there is this general understanding that the situation now is very difficult … we need to come together and maybe think of the situation differently, including how to proceed ..." (03:30)

• Rumors of Technocrat List:
  On reports of his inclusion on a committee to govern Gaza:

  "I haven't been called and I'm not aware that my name is on the list. I don't even believe that there is a list, not yet." (04:28)

  He signals his willingness to serve if needed, emphasizing his Gazan roots.

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2. Governance Models for Gaza and the “Trump 20-point Plan”

• Clear Opposition to International Trusteeship:
  Al-Kidwa distinguishes support for international oversight from the notion of external governance:

  "What I objected to is the idea of having a board of directors headed by Mr. Tony Blair … Gaza ... can be governed only by Palestinians." (05:44)

  He is amenable to international supervision but only as a complement to Palestinian self-rule.

• Precedents & Challenges with International "Boards":
  Amanpour raises historical models like the Balkans, but Al-Kidwa remains focused on ensuring Palestinian agency.

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3. Al-Kidwa & Olmert's Peace Plan: Pathways Forward

• Link to Palestinian Authority & Elections:
  The plan envisions a new governing body organically tied to the Palestinian Authority (PA):

  "We can have the appointment of the head of that body appointed by the President of the Authority … preparing for elections, comprehensive elections. The West Bank and Gaza together. That would be the panacea of all Palestinian ills." (07:13)

• Three Pillars of the Peace Plan:

  1. End the War in Gaza: Immediate cessation of violence.
  2. Two-State Solution: Based on 1967 borders with some land swaps (as previously proposed by Olmert).
  3. Jerusalem Settlement:

     "We propose that the Old City should be governed by a trust of countries, maybe five countries, through regulations adopted by the Security Council." (08:14)

  He asserts:

  “There is no alternative to that … Either you accept the existence of the other side ... or you negate the existence ... and that's a recipe for continued bloodshed.” (09:19)

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4. U.S., Israeli Government Positions & Statehood

• Skepticism Toward U.S./Israeli Commitment
  On vague U.S. statements about statehood and continued Israeli resistance:

  "The language you read … is obviously not strong enough. We need something more concrete … The existence of this Israeli government ... is an impediment." (11:12)

• He hopes Israeli elections may improve prospects.

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5. Inter-Palestinian Dynamics and Hamas

• Condemnation of Hamas’s Governance Style:
  On reports of summary justice/executions by Hamas:

  "This is an attempt by Hamas to scare everybody and it's not acceptable, frankly … there should be always a due process." (12:31)

• Call for Hamas to Relinquish Power:

  "What is needed from Hamas is not only the acceptance of not governing Gaza, but the acceptance of giving up its control over Gaza in all its forms..." (13:22)

• Suggests integrating Hamas into the political process under PA frameworks, acknowledging their societal role but delineating political, administrative, and security control.

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6. Security & Stabilization Forces for Gaza

• Prefers Arab Presence, Sees International Force as Likely:

  "Personally, I would have preferred an Arab security presence … it seems there is some kind of agreement on having the international security force … I think there are enough countries that might be ready to do that..." (14:32)

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7. Palestinian Leadership: The Marwan Barghouti Question

• Supports Release of Marwan Barghouti:

  "Of course, I would join the call to release him … he could be a unifying force for the Palestinian people, but hopefully there will be others as well..." (16:09)

• On Israeli Refusal to Release Barghouti:

  "This Israeli government, ... doesn't want to have a Palestinian state, doesn't want to have Palestinian independence. He wants to ensure the continued agony and absence of any political solution ..." (16:59)

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8. Prospects & Final Thoughts

• Expression of Hope:

  "Yes, I am hopeful, and I think we cannot afford not to be hopeful ..." (17:37)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Palestinian Governance:

  “Gaza or any part of the Palestinian territory can be governed only by Palestinians.” — Nasser al-Kidwa (05:44)

• On Elections as a Solution:

  “At the end of the day, it's elections that will make all the difference.” — Nasser al-Kidwa (07:13)

• On Hamas:

  “What is needed from Hamas is ... giving up its control over Gaza in all its forms.” — Nasser al-Kidwa (13:22)

• On Israeli Government Obstacles:

  “This Israeli government, ... doesn't want to have a Palestinian state, doesn't want to have Palestinian independence.” — Nasser al-Kidwa (16:59)

• On Hope:

  “We should be hopeful and, you know, of course we should be also attendant to things and observe carefully how things will develop and then draw the conclusions. But in general, as I said, we can't afford not to be hopeful.” — Nasser al-Kidwa (17:37)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:02 – Nasser al-Kidwa describes return to Ramallah and current reality
• 04:28 – Denies there being an actual technocrat list; reiterates his willingness to serve
• 05:44 – Al-Kidwa critiques idea of international trusteeship for Gaza
• 07:13 – Articulates plan for Palestinian Authority-linked governance and necessity of elections
• 08:14 – Outlines three main points of the Olmert-al-Kidwa peace proposal
• 11:12 – Comments on inadequacy of U.S. assurances and the obstacle presented by current Israeli government
• 12:31 – Condemnation of Hamas’s extrajudicial executions
• 13:22 – Vision for Hamas’s political transformation
• 14:32 – On the expected international stabilization force
• 16:09 – Advocacy for Marwan Barghouti’s release as a potential unifying leader
• 17:37 – Al-Kidwa’s insistence on maintaining hope

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone throughout is urgent, analytical, and hopeful, with both Amanpour and al-Kidwa employing calm yet frank language. Al-Kidwa’s statements combine both pragmatic realism regarding the current leadership deficits and violence, and idealism about elections, self-determination, and peaceful coexistence.

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[End of Palestinian segment summary – subsequent segments include interviews on Martin Scorsese’s documentary and the U.S. government shutdown, not included per summary request.]

Transcript

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[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. President Trump downplays any threat to the ceasefire in Gaza as Israel and Hamas accuse each other of flouting the deal. But who will run the enclave post war? I'll ask one whose name has been floated. President Palestinian politician Nasser al kidwa. Then Mr. Scorsese Rebecca Miller joins me on her new documentary turning the Lens on a Titan of Filmmaking. Plus, the shutdown standoff continues. Senator Mark Warner tells Michelle Martin why Democrats won't back down on health care. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The ceasefire in Gaza is just four days old and already there are signs of tension. Hamas says it's handed over all the hostage remains that it can access without specialist equipment. Israel, though, is restricting aid in retaliation. Meanwhile, Israel returned 120 bodies of Palestinians held during the war, some of which show signs of abuse and beating. The US Is essentially urging keep calm and carry on. President Trump says what's going on with Hamas, that's, that'll be straightened out quickly. On this program, the Egyptian foreign minister assured me phase two negotiations are going well. But with Hamas reasserting its authority in brutal fashion against ordinary Palestinians, there are also growing questions around the future governance of Gaza. Fifteen Palestinian technocrats have apparently already been approved to help manage the enclave. My next guest is rumored to be among them. Nasser Al Kidwa is a well known Palestinian politician, nephew of Yasser Arafat and former foreign minister for the Palestinian Authority. In recent years, he's worked on a peace plan alongside the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmet. And he's joining me now from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. Welcome to the program, Mr. Al Kidwa.

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Thank you, Christian. And by the way, I just was with Mr. Ehud Olmert on Zoom, speaking with the students in Georgetown University.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, well, that's good. I'll ask you more about that. But you're also back in Ramallah for the first time in many years. This is not just a change of your travel plans, right? It signals a shift in your political reality Right now.

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Well, you are right, of course it's not the result of a change of flying plans. But of course there is this general understanding that the situation now is very difficult and we are faced with extremely, you know, difficult situation. And that's why we need to come together and maybe think of the situation differently, including how to proceed and how to proceed appropriately.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so you've been in self exile for approximately four years and as I said, your name has been floated as one of the 15 technocrats. But more to the point, you have said in an interview with Reuters that if called, you would try to answer that call for your, for your, for your country, people and for a future state. So have you been called? Are you on the 15, you know, member list of technocrats for the future governance of Gaza?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Well, I clearly, unfortunately or fortunately I haven't been called and I'm not aware that my list is onmy name is on the list. I don't even believe that there is a list, not yet. So we need to probably agree on the mechanism and how to proceed and how to proceed in the right way and then we can speak about names. But of course, yes. I mean, I'm not hoping to be in Gaza, but after all, I'm Gazan. This is our country. And if I'm called for, of course I will be available.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so let me just ask you then about what's on the table because if a list isn't there, I understand this sort of second phase is being talked about, I think still in Sharm El Sheikh. That would be about governance, about a stabilization force. But you recently told Sky News that the Trump 20 point plan, quote, doesn't make sense. The Palestinian people do not deserve to be put under international trusteeship or guardianship and definitely doesn't deserve to be put on the British mandate again.

[Michelle Martin]

So tell me about what you see.

[Christiane Amanpour]

In that 20 point plan and why to you parts of it don't make sense?

[Rebecca Miller]

Why to you parts of it don't make sense?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Well, I didn't say that exactly. But anyway, let's talk about it. Do think that the presence of the Board of Peace headed by President Trump is something that can be acceptable and can contribute in making things go in the right direction? Because this is after all, supervisory body. What I objected to is the idea of having a board of directors headed by Mr. Tony Blair, which then, you know, is mandated to govern Gaza. I thought that does not make any sense because Gaza or any part of the Palestinian territory can be governed only by Palestinians. And that does not negate the possibility of having supervision and having some kind of follow up by anybody, including the Board of peace that Mr. Trump spoke about.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so there's always an issue with the transition. There have been in other wars, transitional international board of directors, like in, in the Balkans, there's the so called high representative still existing in Bosnia. So what is it that you envision? How do you envision getting over the current reality that there isn't a unified Palestinian leadership? There just isn't. There haven't been elections. What happens in your vision?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Yeah, in our written statement, Hod Olmert and myself, we proposed having a new body that is organically linked to the Palestinian Authority. And how we do that, we thought that's not in the proposal, but I would add that we can have the appointment of the head of that body appointed by the President of the Authority. We can achieve that through the fact that all employees of the body will be employees of the Authority. And more importantly, we can achieve that through preparing for elections, comprehensive elections. The west bank and Gaza together. That would be the panacea of all Palestinian ills. Because at the end of the day, it's elections that will make all the difference.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You talk about the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Just describe what the, the peace plan looks like. It's obviously the two state solution, but are there other aspects to it?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Yeah, there are three issues, actually. One is the war in Gaza and the absolute necessity to end the war and how we can do that. And we spoke a lot about this, including the proposal to have the body, the Palestinian body that is organically linked to the Palestinian Authority. In addition, we also spoke in this short or concise plan or proposal, we spoke of the necessity to have an overall political settlement in the form of two state solution based on 1967 borders, Israel and Palestine living side and side in peace and security. And of course, to have an exchange of territory in the amount of 4.4% of the west bank, which was proposed by Ehud Olmert. Before that, let me say there is a third point, which is Jerusalem, of course, because of its importance to all monotheistic religions, all believers in the world. And of course, in this regard, we propose that the Old City should be governed by a trust of countries, maybe five countries, through regulations adopted by the Security Council. But I want to say this, Christiane, I mean, there is no alternative to that. Either you accept the existence of the other side, the national rights of the other side, and you ready to live together. And that's you know, the only way forward is the two state solution or you negate the existence of the other side and you claim that it's all yours and that's a recipe for the continued bloodshed and agony, unfortunately.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so you know you have on board a former Israeli prime minister, he's more center right. Also presumably the other former living Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, center left, agrees with this broad parameter of a two state solution. However, clause 19 of the 20 point plan speaks only vaguely about statehood. I'm just going to read it. While Gaza redevelopment advances and when the PA reform program is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self determination and statehood, which we recognize as the aspiration of the Palestinian people. The Trump administration is nowhere near and hasn't yet recognized Palestinian statehood. As you know, they actually barred Palestinian leaders, Mahmoud Abbas and his delegation from even coming to the UN this time. And you know, they rejected the Arab states and the Europeans and others when they issued their formal recognition of Palestinian statehood at the UN just recently. So have things changed do you think, from the American perspective and also from the perspective of the current Israeli government?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Well, I'm not sure. I don't know whether they have changed or not. But the language you read, Christiane, is obviously not strong enough. I mean we need something a little bit more concrete that would carry us all towards the peaceful solution. However, we all know that the existence of this Israeli government, this prime minister is an impediment to that. So irrespective of what some members of the Knesset say now, I think things might look different and might look better in the future after we have an Israeli elections.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And what about you mentioned Palestinian elections which haven't taken place for a very, very long time. And right now you've got a situation that people are looking at from outside where Hamas is filling the vacuum left by the, you know, withdrawing IDF and they are taking summary justice and executions into their own hands. That doesn't look great at all. Even though some of these people we understand were Palestinians who were empowered by Israel to fight against Hamas. What do you make of the inter Palestinian fighting now?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Listen, it's not an inter Palestinian fighting. I mean this is an attempt by Hamas to scare everybody and it's not acceptable, frankly. You were right to say that the execution extra, extra judicial outside the law is not acceptable. And irrespective of the reason, irrespective of the reason or irrespective of the justification, let me say there should be always a due process. There should be always some kind of courts. There should be always lawyers that defend the accused and things like that. So it doesn't look good. And definitely it should change. Actually, I said repeatedly that what is needed from Hamas is not only the acceptance of not governing Gaza, but the acceptance of giving up its control over Gaza in all its forms. And that means the political as well as the administrative, in addition to the security, which lead us to putting the arms, or at least the heavy arms, under the control of the official authority. And that could be coupled with the possibility of transforming Hamas into a political party that can participate in the political life under Israeli law, of course, that would, you know, put the parameters for this kind of participation. I'm saying that because at the end of the day, Hamas is part of the social fabric of the Palestinian people, and they will not disappear. So we better have some kind of arrangement that would help the Palestinian people and would help the people of Gaza to proceed and to do the right.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thing in the meantime, to establish law, because clearly there was a huge vacuum during the war. What about this stabilization force? What are you hearing? What countries are saying, if any, that they will provide troops? What is acceptable to the Palestinian people and people like yourself?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Personally, I would have preferred an Arab security presence, but of course, this is beyond us now because it seems that there is some kind of agreement on having the international security force. And that, of course, should go through the Security Council. Now, I am not sure which countries will be available to provide troops, but I think it's doable. I think there are enough countries that might be ready to do that, including some Arab countries, in addition, of course, to some Europeans and Asian countries that express this kind of position.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the other issue is, of course, people are looking for unifying or, you know, popular Palestinian leaders. As I said, God knows that there aren't any right now. The polls are absolutely catastrophic for people like Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the pa, obviously for Hamas. People in Gaza were desperate when they heard the news of a ceasefire. We need to get rid of Hamas as well, which has brought all this upon us as well. So Marwan Barghouti's name has been floated quite a lot. His name was on the list that Hamas presented, but he's never been, you know, it's never been accepted by Israel. They accuse him of the murder of several people plotting that, and he's got, I think, five consecutive life sentences. In any event, would you join calls for his release? And do you think he would be a unifying figure, given his high Levels of popularity.

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Of course, I would join the call to release him. And of course, it's outrageous that the Israeli government did not accept his release in spite of the request made by Hamas in this regard. And to answer your question, yes, he could be a unifying force for the Palestinian people, but hopefully there will be others as well and we can proceed.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you think not letting him go and it's, you know, not the first time there's been petitions to have him released. Do you think it's because of what you say that he is a unifying force? He also believes in the two state solution. He's also anti Hamas. All the things that most Palestinians and the international community are behind. Do you think that's why he's not being released? Why do you think he's not being released? Given that others who've been convicted of.

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

I think is this Israeli government. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But this Israeli government, and the Prime Minister in particular, doesn't want to have a Palestinian state, doesn't want to have Palestinian independence. He wants to ensure the continued agony and continued bloodshed and continued absence of any political solution. And that's why he doesn't want people like Marwan Barwathi released. But of course, it's our job to do exactly the opposite.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, final question. Are you hopeful?

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Yes, I am hopeful, and I think we cannot afford not to be hopeful. We should be hopeful and, you know, of course we should be also attendant to things and observe carefully how things will develop and then draw the conclusions. But in general, as I said, we can't afford not to be hopeful.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right. Well, Nasser Al Kidwa, first time back in Ramallah for, I think, four years, and you sound hopeful. Obviously, a lot of challenges, including in the west bank where you are. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Nasser Al Kidwa]

Thank you. Pleasure.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And we have to always reiterate that, of course, we continue to request interviews with the Israeli government itself. We invite their officials to come on our program and discuss the future. Stay with us. We'll be right back after the break. Now for some real cultural heavyweight. Just think of masterpieces like goodfellas, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver. Martin Scorsese is considered by many to be America's greatest living film director. And now the legend himself is on the other side of the camera as the subject of a new Apple TV documentary series that dives deep into his life and work. Here's a clip.

[Martin Scorsese]

Where are we going? What stories do we want to tell? I knew I could express myself with.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Pictures.

[Martin Scorsese]

But I had to find my own Way.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And series director Rebecca Miller joins me now from New York. Welcome to the program. Are you okay? Is your earpiece in?

[Rebecca Miller]

I seem to have lost my earpiece, but I'm gonna get it back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, Here, I have it. Okay, There you go. There you go. I mean, hey, it's a filmmaker's jeopardy there. So is this like a Freudian moment? Were you nervous actually turning your own camera as a director, onto the legend himself?

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, you know, I have a healthy capacity for denial, I think. And so I really just. I was really just trying to ask the questions, listen to the answers, ask the next question. I tried to empty my mind and just really listen.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what was it? How did it come about? Why did you decide this was going to be, you know, your. Your focus, this person?

[Rebecca Miller]

I was having a conversation with my producing partner, Damon Cardesis, and I was saying, I would love to make another documentary. And he just said, well, who was your dream subject? And immediately, Martin Scorsese popped into my head. It was an unconscious thing. And then I did say at the time, I have a feeling that, you know, his spiritual life and is really sewn into his films, and I'd be really interested to explore that, which is something I didn't feel I had seen really explored yet completely. And that was sort of my way in. And then I called Marty's doc, producer, Margaret Boddy, and I just floated the idea. I said, if nobody else is doing a big film, like, I would love to do it. And that's really how it started. It started as a film project and then became a series.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm gonna let you get that earpiece into your ear properly. So I don't know.

[Rebecca Miller]

In it goes. I think I've got one of those ears that doesn't like Earp.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Anyway, you know, obviously, you know, full disclosure, your husband, also a great actor, Daniel Day Lewis, has been in several of Marty Scorsese's films. Did you ask? I mean, did you consult with him and you even interview him in the series?

[Michelle Martin]

How.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I mean, that. It's interesting. It's interesting.

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, I met Marty on the set of Gangs of New York, and that's how I met him. And I remember being just struck by how vivid and full of life and nervous he was. But he was about to shoot one of the big battle scenes, and I was just thinking, like, my God, a man who's made so many masterpieces, and he's still a little bit nervous. And so I was so struck by that. And then I was about to make Personal Velocity, which is a film that has a lot of voiceover in it. And I knew that. And so I said, you know, can you suggest any films with voiceover part obviously from his own? And he suggested a few great films like Kind Hearts and Coronets, for example. And so I watched those films and then I used a lot of what they taught me and I made the film and I showed it to him and I said, if you have any, you know, notes, I would love to hear them. And he gave me a thought. And then I did that with other films.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So he.

[Rebecca Miller]

By the time I called Margaret Boddy, I was. He knew my films pretty well. And so in a way, he knew me pretty well. And I knew him a little socially, although not. Not deeply.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And a bit of a mentor, it sounds.

[Rebecca Miller]

I guess so, in a sense, although it would be just on those occasions, you know. But I. But of course, it was a hugely important thing for me that he watched the films. And anyway, thank God he did, because here we are.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We've got a few clips. I'm gon. At least one in a moment. But first I wanted to pick up on what you said, his spiritual journey. Not so many people, you know, know. And I was really quite struck by one. One of the first episodes where he really goes into his childhood, his upbringing, how he even went into the, you know, Catholic seminary. He thought he would be a priest and all the rest of it. I found that really interesting. What about that? Those early years and the spiritual part of him did. Really stuck with you.

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, you know, I thought, well, how does that sort of spiritual journey and his Catholicism jibe with a fascination with violence in some of the films and, like, how do those things coexist? And I thought at that time, I thought. But it was really about his interest in the sinner and in focusing on those people that aren't necessarily heroic, you know, but in fact. But who are the hero of the story, as he says in the film. So. And that just was my way into this body of work. And it was only the beginning because then came the avalanche of knowledge that I got later.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's really interesting, and I hadn't really focused on it either, how much his. Obviously his parents play a huge role in his life and in his upbringing, but even in his films. And I remember interviewing Jodie Foster and she talked about how Scorsese's mother was on the set regularly, a taxi driver tucking in his shirt, patting his butt. Those were her words to me. And you have a clip about his mother in the film. We're just gonna play this?

[Martin Scorsese]

Any student filmmaker, first person should go to are your parents.

[Isabella Rossellini]

He made me get up to cook spaghetti at 4:30 in the morning. I was in the Mean streets. He made me do that scene 22 times. And I had to go to work in the morning. It was two o' clock in the morning and I was still doing that scene.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh.

[Isabella Rossellini]

And I says to him, I've had it, Marty. I gotta go to work in the morning. He says to me, go in that corner and don't come out till I call you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Honestly. I mean, that in itself is a movie right there. I mean, it's a comedy movie. But why was his mother always. Why was she always there? Sorry, why was she always there? Why did he keep turning to her as a character in his film?

[Rebecca Miller]

Oh, I think she was tremendously important to him. I think, you know, clearly in the film you see the relationship and you see how close they were. He also, because he was very sick, I think as a child. He talks about having to be taken care of all the time. The kind of intimacy and closeness of a child who's often sick with, in his case with asthma. But his mother had, I think you can see in the film, like almost the personality of an artist. She's an outsized character. She's tremendously funny and quick witted. Really, really brilliant woman.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know, it reminds me one of the people you interview is Spike Lee. And just the little clip that I've seen so far, he says, thank God for asthma. That's what made Marty Scorsese, the filmmaker, the director that he is. Talk to me about that a little bit.

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, you know, Asmaa really did prevent him from going outside, from playing in the snow, from being around other kids. And also he talks about looking out the window and watching the kids play outside. And that's where he says, that's where I got to love high shots so much. And then we have a series of the high shots that he, you know, that it really informed how he liked to shoot films. But also in the summers, it was so hot in New York, stifling, and they couldn't afford air conditioning. So his father would bring him from one air conditioned movie theater to another in order to just let him breathe. So he was literally only able to breathe inside of movie theaters.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think that's really extraordinary. I mean, just that that again is something that I certainly didn't know about. And also about how he says to you, and he sort of recounts how his father had a massive fight with the Landlord when they were living in Corona, Queens, basically, you know, the suburbs. And then, then he was kicked out. They basically decided that he had to leave that area. And the shame of it, and going to what was described as tenements in Little Italy, I guess in Manhattan was very formative to Mari Scorsese and I guess cemented his maybe outsider perspective. Looking in and the idea of, as you say, sinners and looking in at that aspect, the dark side of humanity.

[Rebecca Miller]

Absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, Paul Schrader, at a certain point I asked him why it is that he thinks that Marty identified so strongly with that script of Taxi Driver. And he says, it's almost as if I had written it myself, says Marty. And I asked Paul if he knew why. And one of the things he said was Marty really responded to a phrase in the script that Travis Bickle is looking inside at Betsy like a wolf staring at. At a campfires in the distance. That sense of like the animal that's left out, like left far away, but also makes you think of a child looking down window out the window down at other people who are below. So there is a kind of theme, an outsider theme, I think, in the film.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And what about. Let's just talk about the films. Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, all the way up to, you know, Killers of the Flower Moon. How much of his life do you see playing into his storytelling?

[Rebecca Miller]

Could you repeat the beginning of that question?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. I'm really sorry for the trouble you're having. Um.

[Rebecca Miller]

It's okay.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You know what? I'm gonna go to a clip here. I'm gonna go to a clip and I'm going to just give you a few seconds to position it better. Here's a clip of Mar. From your. From the documentary. Okay.

[Martin Scorsese]

It's a sense of trust and belonging with each other as a unit. I came from a time where the actors in the studio, they would take the film away from you. And so that's one thing. And that became an issue with De Niro in the sense that we found a trust that I knew in the bottom line he wouldn't do that. I really trusted that and it came true. So it was safe to experiment.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay.

[Rebecca Miller]

It just fell out. It just fell out.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We're gonna take a break and we will come back. Rebecca, we just heard that clip about Scorsese talking about his collaboration with Robert De Niro. Tell me, Rebecca Hall. What? Miller? Rather. I'm confused now.

[Rebecca Miller]

It's okay.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What is it about their collaboration you think was so. I mean, transcendent it really, it's a body of work that these two have put out there.

[Rebecca Miller]

You could say they even created each other in a way. I mean, it's extraordinary because De Niro was a boy who, you know, was compelled to visit the neighborhood and really become, make it his kind of home. Where he stood, as he says, is the expression they used instead of hanging out as a 16, 17 year old boy, a new Marty to say hi to and just wave to. And then they met again through Jay Cox and the story of like, you know, Jade introducing them at a party and De Niro watching Marty who's sort of holding forth and talking and laughing and just De Niro just watching. And that was the beginning of this extraordinary journey.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you also don't shy away from his, you know, there's a lot of dark in his actual person. You know, he carried weapons occasionally. He had really severe drug addictions and drug use, failed relationships, emotional volatility. And he was married five times. And you talk to one of his ex wives, Isabella Rossellini, describing him as a saint sinner, saying that he's both essentially. Do you feel the same?

[Rebecca Miller]

Yeah, I think that, you know, she talks about, you know, him being a saint sinner in the sense that Santo Pescatore, as she says, you know, like somebody who's, you know, fascinated by good and evil. You know, what are people really thinking about the big questions, like as she says, as Jesus asked the questions, as God asked the questions. But he falls a lot of time into bad. So he's a human being. So he, you know, so he's a human being and he lived. He really, you know, one of the things that I am so impressed by, by him is he really threw himself into his life as he did his work. He wasn't sort of scared, sparing of himself. He really wanted to experience life in the fullest. And to some degree that meant sometimes experiencing the dark side, I think, so that he could honestly portray it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I was also interested because most of his friends, collaborators are men. I mean, you know, De Niro, Joe Pesci, Leonardo DiCaprio, your husband, Daniel Day Lewis. He was, as I said, married five times. But on the other hand, he had some of his closest collaborations with women. The editor who he met at nyu, Thelma Schoonmaker, and has been with him since then, his mother obviously is a massive presence in his life. What do you think about his relationships?

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, I think it's very clear, you know, the way that he works with these, you know, intense collaborators who are women. Most of the people that he surrounds himself and that help him with his life, including Thelma Shoemaker, are women. And a lot of the. The greatest performances in his films actually are by women. It's just that the worlds he's exploring are often dominated by men. But when you go into something like the Age of Innocence, where there's a real parody there, or, you know, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, which is really about a woman redefining and capturing her own, you know, agency for her own destiny.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And I want to just take a swerve for the moment because before you made this documentary, you made a very, you know, hugely well reviewed one about your own father, the great American playwright Arthur Miller. It's called Arthur Miller, Writer now, of course, one of his best known works is the Crucible, definitive take of McCarthyism in the 1950s America now, there's a sort of a resurgence of what some say is McCarthyism. Others, you know, that it's a real sort of attempt to shape what they call freedom of speech, what, you know, blacklists, witch hunts, enemies lists and all the rest of it. How do you sort of think about that right now?

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, it's interesting because there's something he says in the documentary, he's talking to Elia Kazan about the UN American Activities Committee, and he says, you know, that really they really did think there could be fascism in the country. They were ready for fascism to take over the country. It didn't happen. I'm hopeful that it's not going to happen again, but I do think it's a real risk and it's something that seems to lurk under the surface and we have to be really vigilant. And I think he would be seeing a lot of the same things happening again. I think he would be appalled, actually.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And now let's just rack forward in generations. Your son has just had his directing debut in Anemone. There's been some screenings here. Look at that proud smile. Co written and starring your husband, his father, Daniel Day Lewis. What's that like? You know, for both of you. It's your son's first feature film debut. I think your husband has come out of some sort of semi retirement to do this and you've got this coming out. I mean, it's a lot of creativity going on under one roof.

[Rebecca Miller]

It's a crazy time. I mean, they're in England right now on their way to Rome. I'm here in New York, you know, but I was in California. It's madness. But I mean, you Know, it's like these projects, they take years and years and then you can't control when they blossom. I feel very, very lucky and so proud of Ronan and Daniel.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, just one last question then. What did your opinion, you called him, I think, the icon of American culture, Martin Scorsese. Did your opinion of him evolve throughout the filming?

[Rebecca Miller]

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think I, as much as I admired him and as much as I was excited, he was the first person I wanted to work on the Titanic. Nature of his output, the really Shakespearean level of great films, I mean, you know, it is astonishing and it's one of the reasons that this went from being a feature film to being five hour documentary because I could not contain the immensity of the body of work. I mean, that was and also his self honesty, how honest he is with himself about himself was really tremendous. And finally, like really the way in which as a young person, you know, he made a film at 21 called It's Not Just yout Murray, much of which is reflected in Goodfellas in terms of formal, you know, a formal attitude toward cutting and toward voiceover. He was so developed at such a young age. I mean, it really is an astonishing thing. And yet he, you know, he just, he's still evolving. He's still hungry. But yeah, I guess it was really that sense of the monumental nature of what he had done.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you so much, Rebecca Miller. Both of us slightly discombobulated by the earpiece, but a great series. We made it. We made it and I highly recommend it. You can watch Mr. Scorsese on Apple TV starting from tomorrow. Now, in the United States, the government remains shut down for a third consecutive week. Why? Because Republicans and Democrats are still at an impasse over a key funding bill. Today it failed to advance in the senate for a 10th time. And the stalemate is already having reverberations on the economy, travel, museums and the payroll of federal workers. The Trump administration has now been temporarily blocked from laying off thousands of government employees. A judge called it politically motivated. Democratic senator from Virginia, Mark Warner joins Michelle Martin now to discuss how mass layoffs are impacting his state and about his fears of a looming health care crisis.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Christiane. Senator Mark Warner, thank you so much for joining us.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Thank you.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, obviously we called you. One of the reasons that we called you is that this is, we're into, I guess the third week the government shut down. By now the president is threatening to lay off federal workers. It appears that there seems to be some arrangement to pay military personnel. At least Virginia is disproportionately affected by this. I mean, you have a significant percentage of the workforce, the non farm workforce are federal employees. And you have the second largest number of military personnel of any state in the country after California. So the first thing I wanted to ask you is what are your constituents telling you about this? What are you hearing from them?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, first of all, I'm glad the military is getting paid. But remarkably, at least at this stage of this process, I'm hearing from federal workers pretty consistently that they feel like they have been traumatized by Trump administration. They feel that Russ Vogt, the OMB director who seems to be who Trump himself is called the Grim Reaper, is really coming after federal workers on an unfair basis. Matter of fact, the president has no greater ability during a shutdown to fire workers than in traditional times. So they feel very much victimized. They want us to push back. We also believe very strongly that the idea of that a health care cliff, that's not going to come at the end of the year, that literally comes November 1st when people get their increased healthcare costs and will have to buy in the marketplace. We don't have the luxury of waiting till the end of the year. Put on that. On top of the fact that the President of the United States has only sat down with the Democratic leadership one time on this whole issue. I know the president's been running around the world and some of these things he's done have been successful. I commend him on that. But. But the idea that he is not taking this shutdown seriously and sitting down and trying to work this out, I think is a great failure of leadership. And we could actually do both. We could deal with the health care crisis, get the workforce back in. And frankly, at the end of the day, the president continuing to ratchet up threats, if anything, I think makes not only the Democrats, but it makes the federal workforce more angry and more frustrated.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you think that this sends creates a wedge actually between civilians and military personnel? Military personnel getting paid and civilians are not.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I hope not. I hope that the President of the United States would recognize that all of these federal workers contribute to the safety of our country. And whether it's in putting their lives on the line or for that matter, inspecting the milk and the food that we drink or eat, that that protects Americans as well. And having those folks not paid isn't fair or right. We have said for some time this was an imminently preventable crisis. We knew the healthcare costs were going up. The administration knew we've got clinics closing already in my state because of this fear of this healthcare cliff. Let's do these together. And there is a lack of trust, because so far we've seen, even when we reach agreement with this administration, we've seen the OMB director arbitrarily come in after the fact and arbitrarily choose which program to fund or not to fund. That's just not the way the law ought to operate.

[Michelle Martin]

So let's talk about the substance of this for people, because everybody isn't following this as closely as you are and certainly as people who are closely connected to the federal workforce are the immediate issue. The Republicans argue that the Democrats are being recalcitrant and not passing what they call a clean continuing resolution, which keeps funding at the same levels as the previous budget. The Democrats say that the issue here is the expiration of these subsidies for people who buy health care on the Affordable Care act marketplace. Without these subsidies, the cost of the buyer is going to increase precipitously. And that, as you pointed out, the timeline is coming up for these insurance premiums to be priced out. People are going to have to make decisions for their sort of budget. In essence, both sides are sort of pointing fingers at each other.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Things you just said, I got to take issue with.

[Michelle Martin]

Go ahead.

[Senator Mark Warner]

The idea that this is a normal CR just isn't the case historically. And we passed a bunch of these. The Democrats and the Republicans sit down together, work out their deal, and then say, we're going to take a time out to finish them. None of that took place. Usually it involves the White House as well. The Republicans felt like we don't need Democrats at all. So we're going to box them out, number one. Number two, we've seen in the past when we've gotten close to these kind of shutdown circumstances, which are always an awful option. The President of the United States engage. Biden engaged repeatedly, actually, when McCarthy was the speaker, he used the speakership very much to his advantage in getting Biden to the table. Trump has had one meeting and then kind of blown it off. And the immediacy of the health care bite is such that people are already getting these notices. My fear is the Republicans want to not acknowledge the cost going up. They're afraid as Americans see these notices coming out, which will happen more in late October than in early October, Americans are going to cross the country. Revolt. And the issue here again is it's not just the 24 million Americans who buy their health insurance through these marketplaces, but if we drive millions of Americans out of the healthcare system, and our healthcare system isn't perfect to start with, and drive them all back into the emergency room. That is gonna collapse the healthcare system. Everybody's healthcare rates are gonna go up. We wanna avoid that. We can avoid that, but you gotta get in the room and talk about these things. I don't think it's an unreasonable ask to say, let's sit down. And frankly, at this stage of the game, the one thing we do know is the Republican leadership has no say in this. End of the day, this is all going to be decided, at least on the Republican side, by Donald Trump. So we need the president's engagement, we need to sit down. Reasonable people can work this out, particularly the President coming off of a very successful effort in the Middle East. Let's see those make a deal skills, work back here at home and avoid this health care crisis and get our federal workers back to work and get them paid.

[Michelle Martin]

The argument that the Republicans are making is that, that voting for the cr, the continuing resolution, is a way to buy time to have those kinds of conversations. Why are they wrong?

[Senator Mark Warner]

They're wrong because we've gone through CRS already. We knew this cliff was coming, and there was no engagement. We're operating right now under a cr. It expired at the end of the fiscal year, but we passed a CR back in March. There was plenty of time to negotiate this. I feel like there is this sense of. That the President feels so emboldened that he basically can blow off Congress. And one of the things that I've been surprised that my Republican colleagues haven't risen up and said, hey, we actually got to have a say on this as well. But frankly, there's not much of a Republican Party. There's a Trump Party. And if there was real interest in negotiating on this, why didn't that happen before September 30th? And so taking a. A promise from somebody who hasn't kept their word so far, even when there was the CR in place, and they've arbitrarily picked which programs to fund. How you go into that circumstance where people fool me once, it's my fault, fool me twice, I'm a fool. And we've seen that kind of activity from this OMB and from this president in terms of cutting back on programs that were actually agreed on, there's not a lot of trust, as we know. Let's get the president in the room. Let's make this deal. I think you get a handshake in a single day. The details on how you extend the ACA subsidies will take some time, but I think you could get to a deal and get this government reopened right away, but it's not going to be based on some future promise to negotiate when we've seen a lack of trust, a lack of follow through from the President on so many items.

[Michelle Martin]

The irony being that according to an analysis by the KFF Health News, the majority of buyers of these policies under the Affordable Care act are actually in Republican states.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Absolutely. They're all from states that didn't expand Medicaid. And again, this is just on the Affordable Care Act. We've already seen the trillion dollar hit that has been taken to Medicaid, which again, curiously enough, our Republican friends didn't have kick in until after next year's midterm elections where again, about 11 million additional Americans will lose their health care coverage.

[Michelle Martin]

You all have private conversations. I understand that publicly there are no sort of discussions going on, but I assume you have side conversations. You have people, you've, for years you've served. This is like your third term. You've served with people for years. Private conversations. Any private conversations going on? Would you point this out? What do they say?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I've been part of every bipartisan group in the Senate in the last decade. I have great Republican friends who I know want to get this resolved. But in today's Washington, no Republican senator or congressman, with the exception of one or two, will go against the President. They are not going to move in any serious way unless the President says so. So the idea that we could, you know, in the classic way the Senate would work its way with Republicans and Democrats coming to a conclusion and then go to the President. That's just not the reality of the world we live in today. Donald Trump controls every action of the Republican Senate. There is no independent actors. There are no independent actors. So no matter what good faith conversations are taking place without the President's involvement, I don't know how we get this resolved.

[Michelle Martin]

The Republicans up to and including the Vice President have been arguing that what Democrats are really after is to subsidize healthcare for illegal immigrants.

[Senator Mark Warner]

That is actually wrong.

[Michelle Martin]

What are the facts of that?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Let me just finish. Let me finish. That is factually wrong. I would hope the vice president would know the law. I know he didn't spend much time in the Senate, Senate, but the law prohibits any federal dollars going in Medicaid, in the Affordable Care act, in any other program to undocumented people in this country. He should know it. To state otherwise is a lie. And it is, I think, frankly, disrespectful to the 24 million Americans who are about to lose their health care coverage.

[Michelle Martin]

And the basis of that is what, as I understand it, the basis of that is that that emergency rooms, as you just pointed out, have to treat all comers. Is that the basis of the logic of that?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Right. That is a law called Intella that says if you show up at the emergency room, even if you don't have coverage, even if we don't know who you are, we're not going to let you bleed out on the floor in the emergency room. I think that is the law of most civilized nations. And the irony here is if you, if you are going to take these 24 million Americans and drive them out of the system because they can't afford it and have them show up at the emergency room, all you're really doing is putting additional burden on the emergency room. That's going to also drive up health care costs for the other Americans who've got traditional private health insurance, because that for the most part comes in as what's called uncompensated care. The hospital has to eat it. That means it's going to drive up rates for everybody else. Some of this is just plain math 101. The fact that the Vice President is making this baseless false argument. They have assumed for a while that there's huge amounts of. Their presumption is all of these programs must be riddled with graft, even in states that are controlled by Republicans, if somehow non Americans are getting this assistance. I don't believe that is the case. And it would be obviously a great, great black eye for those Republican controlled states where the disproportionate number of people are who are buying through the marketplaces. But the law is 100% explicitly clear. And again, I am disappointed the Vice President doesn't know the law of the country.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you see any way forward here? I understand that you specifically, on just getting to an agreement, your argument is, as your other colleagues are on the Democratic side, that the President has to get involved, get in the room and sort of, and work it out.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, I also say, let me just quickly add, I don't think there's any Republican senator I've talked to who hasn't privately said to me, mark, we gotta get Trump in this. We're not gonna do anything without Trump's approval.

[Michelle Martin]

But substantively, do you see a way forward that you could support? Because, I mean, there are Republicans who have been consistent. They just say, you Know what? The subsidies are too expensive. Like, I've had conversations with Republican senators and some of them are consistent. It's just too expensive. We can't afford it.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Yes, I see path forward substantively that avoid the cliff. And if there are reforms that need to be put in place, put us on a path to get those reforms. Avoid the immediate cliff of November. Put reforms in place. And frankly, one of the things that I offered some of my Republican friends, why don't we put into the debate as well? Because of President Trump's tariffs, many of our farming community, particularly in the Midwest, some of those same Republican states are getting creamed because China's no longer buying soybeans. We're going to need a 10, 15, 20, $25 billion assistance package for the agriculture community across the country. Why that isn't introduced into this conversation, I'm not sure why either. Because we're going to get this done, and I believe it will get done. And then the president will come back and say, oh, I forgot, we need another bucket of money. Why we wouldn't go ahead and put that into the conversation right now and get it all resolved and actually show the American people and for that matter, the rest of the world we can still function with appropriate checks and balances. That would be a win for everyone, I think, including the president.

[Michelle Martin]

Senator Mark Warner, thank you for speaking with us.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And finally, talking about leadership today. Thousands of mourners are being pouring into Kenya's capital, Nairobi, to pay respects to the country's former prime minister, Raila Odinga. So many people turned out at the airport to welcome him and his body home that it caused a temporary halt in flights. The outpouring of grief and celebration is testament to the life and legacy of the veteran opposition leader who died on Wednesday of a heart attack at the age of 80 while traveling in India. Odinga ran in no less than five presidential campaigns, and he was a key figure in African politics for decades. The current leader, William Ruto, called him a beacon of courage and the father of our democracy. That is it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London. What's up?

[Michael Ian Black]

I got news for your ears, the podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black. In fact, he's never saying, no, he didn't take the $50,000. He's just calling it, he didn't take.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A bribe because he has the audacity to want to enforce the country's immigration laws.

[Home Depot Announcer]

You said he didn't take a bribe.

[Martin Scorsese]

But I'm not sure you answered the question. Are you saying that he did not accept the $50,000?

[Michael Ian Black]

Thank you, George. JD's take is basically, you're jealous because he's so pretty. Have I got news for your ears. Releases new episodes every Wednesday. Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.