Amanpour – "Peacemaker: U Thant and the Turbulent 60s"

Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN)
Guests: Thant Myint-U, Werner Herzog, Arundhati Roy

Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour explores the enduring importance of truth, peace, and the lessons of history, focusing prominently on U Thant, the third Secretary-General of the United Nations in the 1960s. Through an in-depth conversation with historian and U Thant's grandson, Thant Myint-U, Christiane Amanpour delves into U Thant's untold influence on global crises like the Cuban Missile Crisis, Middle Eastern wars, and Vietnam, while reflecting on whether his brand of diplomacy offers answers to the paralyzed institutions of the present. Later, acclaimed filmmaker Werner Herzog discusses his new book, "The Future of Truth," pondering the persistence and purpose of truth in an age of overwhelming misinformation. Finally, Booker Prize winner Arundhati Roy talks to Hari Srinivasan about her deeply personal memoir and the complex legacy of her formidable mother.

Section 1: U Thant — The Peacemaker in the Turbulent 60s

[02:54–19:56]

The Rise of U Thant

• Humble Beginnings:
  U Thant's journey from a small town in Burma (now Myanmar), without electricity, to becoming the UN Secretary-General.

  • "He was from a well-to-do family, but suddenly impoverished. So he couldn't finish university until he was almost 40. He was a schoolteacher, then headmaster in this little town..." – Thant Myint-U [04:04]

• Diplomatic Meteor:
  After joining government service late, he quickly became Burma's ambassador to the UN and, in a few years, the only candidate acceptable to both Kennedy and Khrushchev as UN Secretary-General.

• First Asian Secretary-General, Symbol of a New Era:
  U Thant’s appointment marked a shift as newly decolonized nations in Asia and Africa started to have representation at the highest global levels.

  • "He was considered really somebody who had their back and who understood what they needed to do." – Amanpour [04:47]

The Middle East & the Six Day War

• Critical Juncture:
  The 1967 Six Day War still influences Middle Eastern politics. U Thant’s decision to withdraw UN peacekeepers after Egyptian President Nasser's demand is dissected.

  • "So many blamed him for that...he was a useful scapegoat by those who wanted to say they had no alternative but to take military action at that point." – Thant Myint-U [06:17]

• Missed Opportunities for Peace:
  Details of secret negotiations years later, where U Thant nearly brokered a broad Middle East peace with massive multilateral security guarantees—thwarted at the last minute by Henry Kissinger’s intervention.

  • "At the last minute it was Henry Kissinger who undermined it by basically advising Golda Meir, who had just about accepted it, to go against the plan that was there." – Thant Myint-U [07:28]

The Cuban Missile Crisis: The Untold Role

• Recasting the Narrative:
  Widely seen as a contest between Kennedy and Khrushchev, Myint-U reveals U Thant’s pivotal but underrecognized diplomatic intervention.

  • "I wasn't really aware of how critical his intervention was...he had to craft that intervention...to give both men the time and the space, the political space they needed to take." – Thant Myint-U [09:18]

• Personal Diplomacy & Pressure:
  U Thant convened high-level meetings and even traveled to Havana to personally urge restraint from Castro.

  • "He said to Castro, look, you come from a small country, I come from a small country...The world is on the verge of a nuclear war. We all need to take a deep breath and take a step back." – Thant Myint-U [11:08]

• Direct Praise from Khrushchev:
  Myint-U reads a never-before-publicly shared letter from Soviet leader Khrushchev.

  • "'I wish to inform you that I agree with your proposal, which is in the interest of peace. With respect, N. Khrushchev.'" – Khrushchev’s letter [11:50]

• Decisive but Quiet Leadership:
  U Thant’s style was to "lead not by being the loudest in the room," but by fostering moral imagination and listening.

  • "He led by showing a kind of moral imagination, a sense of what the others were thinking, listening..." – Thant Myint-U [13:27]

Vietnam: Speaking Truth to Power

• Break with Johnson and Nixon:
  U Thant saw the Vietnam War as unwinnable and urged U.S. withdrawal, a stance which led to U.S. marginalization of the UN and harsh criticism from Western media.

  • "He could see something, even in 63, 64, that many people, Ivy League, educated American, top people in Washington, couldn't see: that they would lose the war..." – Thant Myint-U [14:46]

• Sabotaged Opportunities for Peace:
  Both with Johnson and Nixon, Myint-U asserts, the U.N.'s efforts were sidelined or actively undermined, particularly by Kissinger and Nixon.

  • "When Nixon took over...they purposely marginalized the UN...wanted to drive political capital from bashing the UN in public..." – Thant Myint-U [16:03]

Farewell & Legacy

• A Celebrated, Yet Bittersweet Departure:
  U Thant died soon after his second term, but was sent off by diverse global figures—including John Lennon, who performed “Imagine” publicly for the first time at Thant’s retirement lunch.

  • "John Lennon said, I'm gonna play everyone a song that you've probably never heard before...And he sang Imagine for the first time...December 71." – Thant Myint-U [17:27]

• The UN’s Declining Global Authority
  Amanpour and Myint-U reflect on how the UN’s moral authority has eroded since U Thant, but the dream remains alive.

  • "We know its failures as well as its successes. But I hope in my book, what I show is that there...was this time when the UN was actually successful and it was almost purposely undermined." – Thant Myint-U [18:54]

Section 2: Werner Herzog on "The Future of Truth"

[22:31–38:57]

Truth in an Age of Disinformation

• The Ubiquity of Fake News:
  Herzog places modern "fake news" in historical context, citing examples from Ancient Rome to today, but notes the internet's power to amplify.

  • "Since we have the Internet...fake news are spreading very, very fast and they're omnipresent. And...blatant lies...spread five times as fast as something that's true." – Werner Herzog [24:26]

• Never Abandon the Search:
  Herzog’s book ends with a meditation:

  • "'Future truth has no future. But truth does not have a past either. But we will not, we must not, we cannot abandon the search for it.'" – Werner Herzog [26:00]

• Verifying Reality:
  Herzog’s journalistic approach is to seek multiple sources for news:

  • "For example, I would immediately go to, not just to CNN, I would go to Al Jazeera, to the Vatican, to the Chinese news agency. And all of a sudden you have a much more nuanced image..." – Werner Herzog [26:00]

Imagination & Ecstatic Truth in Filmmaking

• Fitzcarraldo – A Metaphor for Truth:
  Herzog recounts why he insisted on moving an actual 360-ton steamship over a mountain in the Amazon, instead of using a model or special effects:

  • "It's not for the sake of realism. It's like an event of grand opera...an event of pure fantasy...Dream big. But do the doable." – Werner Herzog [27:58, 28:41]

• Blurring Lines Between Fiction & Reality:
  Describes being mistaken for a real priest on a film set and being asked for a confession:

  • "There's also something in us to suspend disbelief. Sometimes we want to be cheated...And in case of me in a costume of a Catholic priest...He felt so much better than with a real priest. And that's stunning." – Werner Herzog [32:03]

Truth vs. AI

• Skepticism About AI-generated Art:
  Herzog dismisses AI-generated performers:
  • "I have not seen the actress created by AI but I'm not really interested...soulless, dead on arrival and only a reflection, a mimicry of the most common denominator." – Werner Herzog [34:53, 35:03]

Truth, Art, and the Ecstatic

• Stylization, Invention & Ecstatic Truth:
  Herzog argues that art’s stylization—its lies—bring us nearer to a deeper truth:
  • "You need stylization, invention, poetry and imagination to locate a deeper layer of truth...far beyond the reach of fact." – Christiane Amanpour quoting Herzog [36:40]
  • Herzog cites Michelangelo's Pieta as example—a youthful Mary holding the broken body of the adult Christ—as a "modification of fact" revealing "a deeper essence."
  • "He modifies facts in such a way that we are understanding a deeper essence, some sort of a truth of the Virgin and of the man of sorrows." – Werner Herzog [38:40]

Section 3: Arundhati Roy on "Mother Mary Comes to Me"—Memoir & Motherhood

[40:11–54:55]
Interviewed by Hari Srinivasan

Writing About an Extraordinary Mother

• The Challenge:
  Roy’s memoir explores her tumultuous relationship with her mother, an activist and educator of fierce intelligence and cruelty, but also indelible brilliance.

  • "She unleashed all of herself, you know, her darkness, her light, her genius, her cruelty, all of it. She deserved a place in literature..." – Arundhati Roy [40:48]

• Parental Contradictions and Survival:
  From berating and violence to sacrificing everything for other people's children, Roy captures the full spectrum of her mother's effect, and her own need to escape to survive.

  • "I just remember feeling that I need to get away fast, you know, in order not to be destroyed. I need to get away fast." – Arundhati Roy [46:02]

• Transforming Pain into Literature:
  Roy describes not succumbing to wounds but creating art from them:

  • "I could have gone down very easily, and then I would not be saying these things. I could have gone down. But I did not go down. I turned it into literature, into art, into real writing." – Arundhati Roy [53:46]

Art, Activism, and Freedom

• The Price of Speaking Out:
  Roy’s activism made her a pariah in nationalist India, but also liberated her from the weight of expectations.

  • "I never wrote it for approbation. It was almost the opposite, a time when you did not have to be...that person who everybody agreed with..." – Arundhati Roy [50:06]

• Legal Peril and Truth-Telling:
  Roy continues to face legal threats for her principled critiques of injustice, in solidarity with many others. Yet she insists writers must bear witness.

  • "Some people have been in prison for a long, long time, held as examples to other people...it was glossed over by everybody because at that point, it seemed like this was a...very robust economy and a very big market. And so let's just unsee the things..." – Arundhati Roy [52:02]

• Freedom Through Embracing Darkness:
  Roy sees the darkness of her upbringing as a gift, a route to the freedom necessary for true creative expression.

  • "I don't think that I could be the writer that I am if I had had another mother or another life...I turned it into literature, into art, into real writing." – Arundhati Roy [54:48]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On U Thant’s style:
  "He led not by being the loudest person in the room. I think he led by showing a kind of moral imagination, a kind of sense of what the others were thinking, listening..."
  – Thant Myint-U [13:27]

• On truth in the digital age:
  "Fake news are spreading very, very fast and they're omnipresent. And by the way, the blatant lies...spread five times as fast as something that's true."
  – Werner Herzog [24:26]

• On the first public performance of “Imagine”:
  "John Lennon said, I'm gonna play everyone a song that you've probably never heard before...And he sang Imagine for the first time. And this was at the lunch for my grandfather's retire, December 71."
  – Thant Myint-U [17:27]

• Arundhati Roy on survival and literature:
  "I could have gone down very easily...But I did not go down. I turned it into literature, into art, into real writing."
  – Arundhati Roy [54:48]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:54] – Start of U Thant deep-dive with Thant Myint-U
• [05:38] – The 1967 Six Day War and the UN's Middle East Crisis
• [09:18] – Cuban Missile Crisis and U Thant’s unseen mediation
• [14:27] – U Thant and the Vietnam War
• [17:27] – John Lennon performs "Imagine" at U Thant's farewell
• [18:54] – On UN’s legacy and today’s lessons
• [22:31] – Werner Herzog on "The Future of Truth"
• [24:26] – The speed of lie vs. truth online
• [27:58] – Fitzcarraldo: art, metaphor, and 'doing the doable'
• [36:40] – Herzog's “ecstatic truth” and Michelangelo’s Pieta
• [40:11] – Arundhati Roy on writing about her mother
• [46:02] – Surviving a dangerous home, plotting escape
• [50:06] – On liberating herself from expectation, embracing writing as witness
• [54:48] – Finding freedom in darkness through art

Tone

The episode is a thoughtful, probing, and at times moving examination of history, art, and personal story, maintaining Amanpour's signature blend of intellectual rigor and empathetic inquiry. The voices are honest, analytical, richly human.