Christiana Amanpour (1:29)

Michelle Martin chronicles the life of Jesse Jackson, the late civil rights leader, with author and journalist a' Lelia Bundles. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiana Manpour. In London. It is a royal earthquake. For the first time since King Charles I In 1647, a senior member of the family has been arrested. Today, police took Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, the former Prince Andrew, into custody on suspicion of misconduct in public office. A royal source tells CNN that Buckingham palace was not given prior warning. The arrest comes amidst an investigation into claims that Andrew shared sensitive information with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein while he was serving as the UK Trade envoy. And it follows allegations that a woman was trafficked to the UK By Epstein for sexual encounters with the former prince. Police have not charged Andrew with any sexual offenses. Andrew has previously denied all accusations against him and insists that he never witnessed or suspected any of the behavior of which Epstein was accused. Andrew's brother, the current King Charles, expressed his, quote, wholehearted support for the investigations, saying the law must take its course while Prime Minister Keir Starmer says no one is above the law. Andrew's fall from grace began in 2019 when journalist Emily Maitlis sat down with him inside Buckingham palace for a notorious hour long interview about his relationship with Epstein. It was the first time he had spoken publicly about the allegations. He said then that he had no indication Epstein was doing anything wrong. And Emily is joining me now to discuss this latest development. So welcome to the program.

Emily Maitlis (3:32)

Thanks, Christiane.

Christiana Amanpour (3:32)

You know, I said that this was a royal earthquake. Do you think it is a royal earthquake? Do you think it threatened. Threatens the very monarchy?

Emily Maitlis (3:41)

I'm absolutely stunned by what we're seeing today. As you said, the last time there was an arrest of a royal was 1647. That is 350 years ago. And it ended up with the beheading of Charles I and briefly the end of the monarchy. So this is not something we see in this country. This is not something that we are used to seeing. And we have to remember that Andrew remains eighth in line to the throne. He still lives in a royal residence. It isn't in Windsor, it isn't Royal Lodge, the place that he was moved out of, but it is on the royal estate. And I think the questions now for the royal family, and particularly for the monarch, his brother will be how close that relationship is made to seem between the two of them and to the wider public.

Christiana Amanpour (4:29)

So the King, his brother did appear in public today, extraordinarily. He was going to London Fashion Week. We have pictures of him walking in and he refused to answer any journalist questions. He wasn't heckled by the public as far as we can see, but he wouldn't answer questions. And he has, as I said, made that statement about supporting the course of law. Given the seriousness of how you describe what's just happened, why do you think it's happened now? What is the trigger?

Emily Maitlis (4:58)

There is no question in my mind that when King Charles removed that title from Andrew6 months ago last October, when he asked him to leave Royal Lodge, the King was essentially paving the way for the law to take its course. He was essentially saying, I think to the forces of justice in this country, I don't want to tie your hands, he's my brother, but he is no longer untouchable. I'm not saying that King Charles had any advance warning of what happened today. In fact, I think we know that he didn't. There was no tip off, there was no communication between the police, the forces that arrested him and the monarch. But that statement was absolutely critical. When King Charles said, let the law run its course. This has to be fair, justice for all, essentially. But he also said this curious line which was, I have the deepest concern. I thought that was a very strange combination of words because he didn't really explain who that concern was for. Was it for a brother that he feels he no longer can call a brother formally? Or was it for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein in whatever form or guise they are? It remains unexplained. But I do think that that was a seminal moment because King Charles was indicating six months ago that no one is above the law.

Christiana Amanpour (6:22)

Now, here's the tricky part of all of this. You just mentioned Epstein and the victims, so we aren't allowed to talk about that in regard to this case, according to the British legal restrictions on the press, because this apparently is not about those things that you talked to him about in your interview. But this is about misconduct in public office, say the police. That's the. That's the suspicion. He hasn't been charged, he's in custody. What does that mean? That stems from his position as trade envoy. What was he doing and what's at stake here?

Emily Maitlis (6:56)

Let's begin by repeating, as we always do, that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor denies all wrongdoing when he was a trade envoy. It is alleged that he passed information that was confidential to do with the state, to do with trade, to do with economics, to do with business, from himself, from the UK government, essentially, to Jeffrey Epstein. Again, he has not been charged. But misconduct in public office is a very, very difficult thing to pin down because it has to show willful wrongdoing. In other words, did he know that he was doing wrong when he passed? If he passed trade secrets, if he passed market sensitive information, if he passed stuff that should have gone through the government to an outside investor, was he aware that he was doing wrong? So it is a very serious offence. It can bring life imprisonment. I mean, in its extreme case, these kinds of accusations, allegations tend to be considered a sort of four to seven year custodial sentence. Still a lot. And obviously he hasn't been charged with anything, but it is notoriously difficult to prove. And as you say, there is an irony to all of this, because for the last 15 years we've been talking about Prince Andrew in relation to allegations made specifically by Virginia Giuffre, Epstein's victim, who lost her life to suicide tragically last April. This has nothing to do with that. It is. It is not connected legally to that. And the only reason we know about the sharing of information, the alleged sharing of confidential information, is because of the release of the Epstein files. So, you know, to all those saying, oh my gosh, there's so much stuff. There's 3 million bits of information. Are we ever going to understand anything? You know, Thomas Massie, the Republican from Kentucky who's really led the charge on the Transparency act on getting these files released, is saying this is what it was all about. This is about seeing people having to face justice.

Christiana Amanpour (9:00)

Except for from his perspective, nothing really has happened to any of the Americans in terms of facing justice. The American men who've been mentioned in the Epstein files. And there's a thought that so many, I mean, there's a former Prime Minister of Norway is under investigation and, and, and it's going all over the place. So I wonder what you think about because I think even Prime Minister Starmer has said if called by Con, Andrew should testify on this other issue, not on the one that he's under investigation for right now.

Emily Maitlis (9:32)

Look, what I would say is there are nine police forces investigating the former Prince Andrew right now. That is unheard of. It is unprecedented. And they're not all looking at misconduct in public office. That is the emails question. There are police forces in Essex, in Bedfordshire, looking to flight logs at Stansted, at Luton Airport, trying to see if there were questions of trafficking there is

Christiana Amanpour (9:55)

using those airports here to bring traffic girls into the uk.

Emily Maitlis (10:00)

Exactly. So there are lots of forces examining lots of different things concurrently. And what I would say is, yes, I do think we are currently doing better in the uk. We are doing better at letting the course of justice run its path than the us. I mean, Norway is also doing that. France is also doing that. Europe, I think is ahead on this. But I don't think that means it won't happen in America. Yeah, I mean if. Now I was one of those men who was named in depositions by Virginia Giuffre. She named them all. She named 40 men who she said had trafficked or raped or abused her. I would not be sleeping very comfortably tonight.

Christiana Amanpour (10:40)

Well, this is really an extraordinary development. I wonder how you assess former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who was Prime Minister at the time, that Andrew was a trade envoy. He has submitted a five page memorandum, according to him, to relevant police forces regarding the Epstein files. This is what he said after the arrest. The memorandum provides new and additional information to that which I submitted last week. I expressed my concern that we secure justice for trafficked girls and women, said the former Prime Minister. And in a piece for the New Statesman last week, he did call on the Metropolitan Police to urgently re examine claims that Epstein's victims were trafficked to the UK on private flights in and out of London's Stansted Airport. That is quite an extraordinary intervention and a proactive from a British prime minister.

Emily Maitlis (11:30)

Yeah, it seems that Gordon Brown was a better journalist than all of us, actually. But what is interesting is that Gordon Brown would have been prime minister when Andrew was the trade envoy. And the trade envoy is a very odd role because as far as I understand, it's appointed by the Queen. Maybe it's sanctioned by the government, but it's actually appointed by the Queen. So in terms of whether it is part of a public office, it sort of slips between these constitutional lines quite delicately. But the fact that Gordon Brown is not coming out today and talking about his role as trade envoy or any of the allegations surrounding that, but he is focusing on the question of traffic, women and girls, I think is really important, and I think it sends a really important signal because I was talking to Sky Roberts, Virginia Roberts brother, who has been a very, very strong advocate for the survivors and for his sister's memory since her death. And I asked him how he felt, seeing all the focus suddenly on questions of what we might call sort of white collar crime as opposed to the women, the children at the time. And he said, well, actually, I've been thinking very hard about this, and I think whatever works, whatever brings justice, whatever brings justice closer is a thing we want to see. Yeah.

Christiana Amanpour (12:45)

How interesting. Well, as I said, you started this and that interview was extraordinary. Again, not related to the current investigation, but nonetheless, as you say, it's all potentially part of a part. Andrew still denies it all, but here we are. Emily Maitlis, thank you very much indeed.

Emily Maitlis (13:02)

Thanks.

Christiana Amanpour (13:03)

And stay with us. Cause we'll be back after the break.

a' Lelia Bundles (13:12)

This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. When people ask you on a flight,

Emily Maitlis (13:17)

what do you say you do?

Yehuda Duenas (13:19)

My name's Yehuda Duenas.

Rafael Grossi (13:20)

I'm an intimacy coordinator, which means that I help films and productions navigate intimate

Christiana Amanpour (13:26)

scenes in film and television.

a' Lelia Bundles (13:28)

Have you, like, stopped telling people what you do or, like.

Yehuda Duenas (13:31)

I've totally stopped telling people what I do.

a' Lelia Bundles (13:36)

A Hollywood intimacy coordinator, Yehuda Duenas.

Christiana Amanpour (13:40)

We're gonna talk about the state of

a' Lelia Bundles (13:42)

this very new industry and talk about how we tell the story of sex. Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.

Christiana Amanpour (14:01)

And now American air and naval assets are building up in the Middle East. It's a massive buildup, as CNN reports that the Pentagon is prepared to strike Iran as early as this weekend. Meantime, President Trump convened his, quote, board of Peace for the first time in Washington this morning where he addressed the current Iran nuclear talks.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (14:23)

They cannot continue to threaten the stability of the entire region and they must make a deal or if that doesn't happen, I maybe can understand. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But bad things will happen if it doesn't.

Christiana Amanpour (14:39)

The first round of negotiations ended in Switzerland on Tuesday without resolution, but with a deadline for Iran to provide more details of its nuclear program in the next two weeks. Rafael Grossi is the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency. He met with Iran's foreign minister on Monday, and he's joining us now from agency headquarters in Vienna. Welcome back, Director General. Welcome back to the program at this critical time.

Rafael Grossi (15:07)

Thank you very much. Always a pleasure.

Christiana Amanpour (15:09)

So can I begin by asking you whether when you spoke, well, you did speak to the Iranian foreign minister just before the US Brokered talks on Tuesday. What did you, what sense did you get from him as to what they were willing to do when it comes to your file, and that is the nuclear file?

Rafael Grossi (15:31)

Well, I should say, first of all, for precision, that I was also present on Tuesday.

Christiana Amanpour (15:36)

Okay.

Rafael Grossi (15:37)

Which is very important because this indicates to me that there is a sense of finality or more concreteness in this, mediated by the Foreign Minister of Oman, of course, talks, because for the first time the IAEA myself was involved and was present. So we were able to talk about very concrete things, not general exchanges of what should or shouldn't be do or what would be possible. But to go back to your question, of course, I had a preparatory conversation, long conversation with Foreign Minister Abbas Arakchee, and I think there is clarity in everybody about what is needed for the agreement to happen. It is true at the same time that there are differences, perhaps more, on how far or how this can be done. But in terms of what is needed, what are the elements of a possible deal? I think there is absolute clarity.

Christiana Amanpour (16:47)

Okay, well, let me then ask you to dig into that, please, because Barak Ravid, he on Israeli tv said, told him that talks were, quote, a nothing burger, that is, they didn't achieve even the minimum, apparently, according to these sources. And then on the other hand, you have the Iranians who briefed afterwards that it was good. They had, you know, sort of a, you know, sort of a roadmap. And now we hear that there was meant to be sort of two weeks for them to come back from Capitol and to talk again. What do you know, since I'm so glad you told me you were at the Tuesday talks. How did they end? Were the US Encouraged? Was The Iranians tell me.

Rafael Grossi (17:32)

Well, I think first of all, there are many opinions and people who were not there, of course, have very colorful views on what happened. What actually happened is that we were looking into the different elements, what are these elements of the agreement? So not to be mysterious about it, the elements of this agreement, of this possible agreement, possible deal, have to do with the nuclear material that is in Iran, in particular the highly enriched uranium. They have to do with the facilities that were targeted back in June. What is going to happen with those facilities has to do also with future activities. What are these future activities in Iran look like? What do they look like? What is possible and how to make sure that all of this happens under tight IAEA verification. Of course, there is another chapter which has to do with more political things in which I am not involved, sanctions lifting, economic cooperation and incentives of this type, which is, of course, something which runs parallel and it's informing the whole thing, but it's not specifically, specifically nuclear. So what has happened, and I think even this clip from President Trump's statement today goes into that direction. There is an understanding that after discussion on these general principles, Iran will be coming with a number of more concrete ideas. So there is a process which is ongoing, and we are also consulting technically to try to make it, you know, solid and viable. So this, this is what is happening. Yes.

Christiana Amanpour (19:20)

You talked about the highly enriched uranium. There's 400 kilos apparently of 60% enriched uranium. Where is it? Do you know where it is? Because you still, even though IAEA is back in Iran, you have not been able to inspect it. And satellite pictures have shown fortifications or concrete over those suspected areas. What do you know about that?

Rafael Grossi (19:42)

Yeah, well, indeed, you are absolutely right. We have returned, but not to those places, and it is imperative that do so. But in terms of where the material is, I think there is a general consensus that the material is, by and large where it was. There hasn't been any indication of important movement of material. And as you said, there is more on the opposite. There is fortification, there is covering movement of earth and blocking of the, the axis of the different tunnels. In particular in Isfahan, where most of the stockpile is deemed to be, to be present. So we assume, and I don't think in general, I would say there is a widespread consensus in the different analysts and people looking at that. And even the Iranian government is agreeing on this. It is there. And of course we have to go back there. But as you can imagine, Christian, all of this is, is in a certain sense part of what will happen if there is a deal? So the existence or the coming to being of a deal would be opening up all these activities that we need to do, and indeed, they would be a prerequisite. Otherwise, it would be impossible to do anything with that material or to check whether it is there or not.

Yehuda Duenas (21:13)

Yes.

Christiana Amanpour (21:13)

On the other issue, which the United States is very keen on, obviously Israel as Well, and which J.D. vance and Rubio, the Secretary of State, have spoken about, they say they're not getting enough in terms of what they want, which is no enrichment, period, end of story. Not no enrichment for a month or a year or three years or whatever. Can you tell us about the demands and where you think Iran is? You spoke even to the foreign minister yesterday by phone

Rafael Grossi (21:40)

only in general terms. As you can imagine, there is a negotiation which is ongoing. So it would be very improper for me to start describing in detail these things, but it is clear that there is this gap, which is obvious between the position of the United States, which is demanding, as you say, is demanding no enrichment at all, and what Iran would like to continue to be doing. So, as typically in diplomatic negotiations and in negotiations that want to be constructive, we have to see if we can strike a balance between what may be legitimate and without any proliferation risk at all and what the United States could accept. So it's walking this fine line where we are going to be having an agreement, I hope.

Christiana Amanpour (22:29)

Okay. So finally, the New York Times is reporting that sources are telling them that this massive military buildup is more about trying to get concessions out of Iran than regime change? As you know, many people inside Iran, and certainly diaspora outside Iran, don't want negotiations. Well, I don't know about inside, but outside, they don't want negotiations. They want intervention and they want regime change. Do you believe, given the fact that this time in June, there were meant to be these talks going on and there was a bombing instead of the next round of talks, what are you feeling? Is this really about concessions at the negotiating table, or do you think there's also a regime change element to it?

Rafael Grossi (23:11)

It's quite speculative, of course, what you are asking me, this is a logical question. I would say what I see around the table, what I see when I talk to Special Envoy Ambassador Witkoff and Dr. Kushner, I see that they are there engaging seriously in a conversation, aiming at having some results. They do seem to have some timelines, which, of course, is for them to see and to decide. And I see on the Iranian side something interesting, which is a realization that this is A different process in the past. And you and I have been discussing about this for many, many years. There has been this sort of tit for Tatsi thing. I do something and then I get something in return. My impression is that here, whether we are looking at something that has to be comprehensive or not, okay.

Christiana Amanpour (24:08)

And that's very important, very important, because it's really the pedal hits the metal right now. Thank you very much indeed, Rafael Grosdi, and we will keep in touch with you. Thank you. Now, President Trump claims his Board of Peace will be, quote, the most consequential international body in history. But key American allies are staying out, including Europeans, including the Vatican, which says it's the United nations that should manage crises around the world. Pope Leo is making the call for peace a central part of his papacy. Speaking on Ash Wednesday in his reflections at the start of Lent, Pope Leo lamented the ashes left behind by today's wars and conflicts. Take a listen to what he said.

Emily Maitlis (25:00)

The weight of a burning world, of entire cities destroyed by war, the ashes of international law and justice among peoples, the ashes of entire ecosystems and harmony among people, the ashes of critical thinking and ancient local wisdom.

Christiana Amanpour (25:21)

All of that, he says, needs to be rebuilt and reconstituted and protected. One of Leo's staunchest allies in the United States and in the Church is Cardinal Joseph Tobin, Archbishop of Newark, New Jersey. Like the Pope, Cardinal Tobin urges people of faith to call out injustice by using their voices to say no. And he's joining me now from Newark. Cardinal Tobin, welcome to the program.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (25:47)

Well, thank you very much, Christiane. I'm honored to be here.

Christiana Amanpour (25:50)

Well, it's great to talk to you because this Pope has really forged a very, very conscious path towards what I've just said, but also to be just and kind and treat immigrants and others with dignity. Can I first ask you to describe what you think is meant by just be able to say no? No to what?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (26:16)

Well, I think it demonstrates that we have the ability to make choices in life. And to some things, we say yes to the ones that are life giving, that really respect human dignity, that contribute to human flourishing. We say no to things that are short sighted and actually would harm. I think the Holy Father has made it quite clear that from the moment he stepped out on the balcony on May 8th of last year at St. Peter's he said, Peace be with you, with such clear fervor and emphasis, that peacemaking was going to be an important part of his program as the, as our Holy Father.

Christiana Amanpour (27:10)

So that's, you know, to an extent on the international stage. And we've literally just been talking about potential war in the Middle east again. And we see all the wars, and the pope talked about that. But what about inside the United States, from your perspective? Obviously, Pope Leo is the first American pope, and he really has made it a mission to speak out, certainly, for the immigrants in the United States, Treat them with dignity, treat them with due process. They don't have to be, you know, rounded up and all treated like criminals. And you yourself, even on Ash Wednesday, I think you went into a. I believe it was an ICE facility to say Mass and to bless your constituents, or rather, you know, your people there. Tell me about the tension between the Vatican between, you know, the Newark Archdiocese and the administration on this. On this issue.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (28:06)

Well, you mentioned my perspective, and my perspective was formed by, as you note, something that happened yesterday morning here in the eastern part of the United States and in the state of New Jersey. I was permitted to enter a nice facility to conduct religious services for some of the 1300 inmates that were there for my service that day. Yesterday there were women from all over the Western hemisphere, and we conducted it in several different languages. It was a moment of very somber and palpable suffering because they were separated from. From their families, from the people they most wanted to be with. But I saw incredible solidarity among these women, especially at a moment called the sign of peace, where we exchange a handshake or an embrace to see these women who are heartbroken yet want to support each other. And that gives meaning to what I do, is simply to recognize the dignity of each person and to work together in the community to make sure that that dignity is recognized and respected.

Christiana Amanpour (29:29)

I'm just going to ask you to explain. You said women. Is that because their husbands had fled or they didn't dare come out or were incarcerated? Tell me why just the women you're concentrating on?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (29:42)

Well, I presume now there were other services during the day, Cristiano, where men were took part as well.

Christiana Amanpour (29:50)

Got it.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (29:50)

I believe the conditions of their incarceration is that they're segregated. Oh, so that was the reason that I was with the women.

Christiana Amanpour (30:00)

Got it. Okay, I got it. Cardinal, you have really used your platform now and your pulpit, obviously, to take a stand. You're going beyond preaching and the Christian, you know, theology and values. You've denounced ICE as a lawless organization. This, obviously, after the killing in January of the nurse Alex Pretty, and also before that, Renee Goode in Minneapolis. And you've urged Catholics to oppose additional funding of ice. What moves you to enter that fray because it is also political. It's religious, it's about values, it's about Christian charity. But it's also political in today's world.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (30:48)

Well, you know, for me, the issue of immigration is personal as well as communal. I deal every day with situations in which there are people who were here and now they no longer are. They've been separated from their families. They've been, after many years, even decades in this country, they're now in a process that is aimed at deporting them. So I didn't measure my words always. But I can say this is the important thing, that we're not going beyond Catholic principles. At least I'm not. And that's what I have perfect confidence, that what I think we all can agree on is the worth of each human being, and not because it's acquired or achieved or bestowed on by an external power. It is an element, an essential element of being human as intended by our Creator.

Christiana Amanpour (31:55)

You've mentioned a lot of people who are targeted within your own diocese. And we hear from Cardinal Cupich of who he says priests in his archdiocese have been stopped by federal agents, asked to prove their immigration status. This is what he said to a PBS station. I've had some priests who are of different color being targeted and arrested stop because of the color of their color and asking them to prove that they're citizens. That's not America. Of course, DHS said allegations that ICE engages in racial profiling are categorically false. But what can you tell us about what that cardinal says?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (32:39)

Well, I have no reason to doubt what Cardinal Cupich said. But speaking from what I know here in Newark, I don't believe. At least I've not heard of any of our priests that have been stopped. But I can tell you there is a great anxiety among the priests for their own status, even if they have legal status in the United States. They worry about being stopped suddenly on the street and asked to produce documents. So they carry their identification documents with them. But I think the pain of our priests is also sharing the pain of the people. One of the other services I had last evening, Christiane was in downtown parish in Newark, who has lost 25 people since Christmas. And you could feel the sorrow among the people. And there were a few empty places in the church simply because it was too risky for people to be seen on the streets.

Christiana Amanpour (33:45)

Can I just ask you. Because again, Pope Leo has made himself perfectly clear, and he's talked about, you know, the need to treat immigrants with dignity, no matter What? As you know, Tom Homan, he is Trump's border czar. And back in November, he basically criticized the pope for, you know, for making these public statements. Here's what he said. I want to play it for you.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (34:11)

I'm saying this is a lifelong Catholic, baptized Catholic, first communion as a Catholic, confirmation of Catholic. You ought to fix the Catholic Church and concentrate on his work and leave border enforcement to us. He wants to attack us from securing our border. He's got a wall around the Vatican, does he not? So he's got a wall around protect his people and himself, but we can't have a wall around the United States. So I wish he'd stick to the Catholic Church and fix that and leave border enforcement to us.

Christiana Amanpour (34:36)

I hope you could hear all that. But he said he was a lifelong Catholic. The Pope should basically stick to his, you know, his pastoral duties and et cetera. What do you make of that?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (34:51)

Well, I can certainly say that neither the Pope or myself or anybody else other than those who are elected make policy for the people of the United States. Our legislators and our elected officials do that. But that does not keep us from viewing reality from the perspective of our own. And I would suggest that if Mr. Holman really wanted to know what the Holy Father thinks, he should have a conversation with him. I'm quite sure he would get a respectful listening from him as well as a clear exposition of the Catholic Church's position on this question.

Christiana Amanpour (35:33)

Just a quick last one on the Board of Peace, because we said that the Vatican had declined to attend, declined the invitation to join, you know, the Holy See, saying that, left perplexed by some points of the plan on critical issues which need to be resolved. In general, what is the view and why are there reservations about the Board of Peace?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (35:57)

Well, I can't speak for the Secretary of the State, but I can recall what the Secretary of State, Cardinal Parolin, said yesterday, and that was basically to recognize that there were some perplexities or some open questions that prevented the Holy See or the Vatican, if you want to say that, from joining the Board of Peace. But I think he also expressed a clear vote in favor of the United nations as the arbiter of conflict within this country. And the Vatican has not had a positive, though not always uncritical view of the United nations since its very founding. And so I think that that's the particular reason the Holy See doesn't have a government like a nation state does, that can easily participate in boards like the President has proposed.

Christiana Amanpour (37:00)

And just briefly, lastly, because we've got about 20 seconds. The Pope is also calling for more kindness. And in a world that seems to be, you know, urging or facilitating contempt and, you know, quite a lot of violence between people, at least verbal and political, do you think that can you see that he could make headway? Do you think the message of kindness to each other is going to resonate?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (37:27)

Well, you know, we just began the season of Lent yesterday, and there are practices that, that not simply Catholics, but other Christians and even other religions in their time, like Ramadan or moments of purification, employ prayer and almsgiving, but also fasting. And the Holy Father's view on fasting this year was he was an invitation to the Catholic community to fast from violent language, from language that hurts and wounds and really doesn't contribute to the common good. So I think that that's, this is something he's thinking about a lot. Christiane.

Christiana Amanpour (38:10)

All right. Well, Cardinal Tobin, thank you very much for joining us from Newark. Thank you so much. And we'll be back after this break. TAB I Got News for your ears, the podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (38:29)

I have nothing. I've been exonerated, totally exonerated. On Epstein. Yeah, the exonerated thing, like, he just the word he learned and I don't think he even knows what it means. Come on.

Christiana Amanpour (38:39)

He knows what exonerated means. He's been on trial enough times.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (38:43)

He's been exonerated a number of times. To me, it's the 1980s. Ran for president and won. Right.

Christiana Amanpour (38:49)

Why isn't the music more interesting?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (38:51)

YMCA Gloria. I'm going to say that Gloria Blind

Christiana Amanpour (38:56)

Michael Crawford receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Rafael Grossi (39:01)

Have I Got News for your Ears.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (39:03)

Releases new episodes every Wednesday.

Christiana Amanpour (39:05)

Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Tributes have been pouring in for the late Reverend Jesse Jackson, who died earlier this week at the age of 84. A life dedicated to fighting for racial justice. Jackson's Presidential campaigns in 1984 and 1988 reshaped the Democratic Party and paved the way for black politicians like Barack Obama, as journalist a' Lelia Bundles explains. Now to Michele Martin.

Yehuda Duenas (39:39)

Thanks, Christiane a' Lelia Bundles, thank you so much for talking with us.

a' Lelia Bundles (39:42)

Absolutely.

Yehuda Duenas (39:43)

One of the reasons I was glad to speak with you is that you are both a journalist and a biographer. I mean, you haven't written a biography of Jesse Jackson, but you've written biographies of other notable figures who had an important role in American public life. So I wanna start with your coverage of the Jackson campaign. What do you remember from that campaign?

a' Lelia Bundles (40:04)

So I actually covered the 1984 campaign. So I was on the trail from January through the convention in San Francisco. It was an amazing ride. It was both historical, it was sometimes a little chaotic, but we really did see an amazing change in the electorate.

Yehuda Duenas (40:27)

Tell me about sort of when people say it was sort of chaotic. And why is that? I mean, it wasn't a conventional campaign.

a' Lelia Bundles (40:35)

Well, you know, it really. It was as much a crusade, I think, as a campaign. And I remember having. I was in the Atlanta Bureau for NBC, and the summer of 1983, Reverend Jackson had been out encouraging people to register to vote. I remember being in Mississippi, I don't remember which town, but it was the first time I'd heard people say, run, Jesse, run. And he was getting people out to vote. He was saying, you've got to register to ride. You got to get on board to ride. And that was sort of the beginning. You could see it was a crusade to just raise people's consciousness about the power they could have if they voted. Then the campaign, even before for the primaries, Reverend Jackson had gone overseas and he had been able to get a prisoner released. And that was kind of. He was always cooking up something that got headlines. But it was, you know, instinct. But it was also strategy to get attention so that by the time the primary started, by the time New Hampshire was happening, by the time Iowa was happening, he was already in the headlines.

Yehuda Duenas (41:49)

Did he think that he could actually win?

a' Lelia Bundles (41:54)

Well, you know, when you think of when you read about, as I've been doing for the last day, reminding myself about his childhood and how charismatic he was and really what a big ego he had, how much self confidence he had, even from a young age, I think Reverend Jackson might have believed that he could win. And the reality is that he did much better than many people predicted, that he really did connect with a wide range of people. He, I think, helped to build this coalition that we see now that's part of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. But he was stirring up that enthusiasm in a way that no one had really done before.

Yehuda Duenas (42:37)

Karen Tumulty, who's now with the Washington Post, was with the LA Times, wrote a piece in the Washington Post describing being on one of those campaigns and just she's white and talked about just the unbridled racism that she sometimes saw directed at him. And so I just wondered if you, as a journalist, did you ever witness scenes like that?

a' Lelia Bundles (43:03)

We certainly knew that it was going on. And I would say, even for those of Us who were working for major news organizations, you knew that there was a skepticism about Jesse Jackson's campaign and in some ways, the reporters who were assigned to the campaign. A lot of African Americans covered a presidential campaign for the first time. I know I certainly covered something for the first time. And it was. It was so much apart when I was at NBC, but at abc, cbs, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, those slots, the boys on the bus were literally the boys on the bus. And there were very few African Americans who had covered political campaigns. But those political campaigns were what you used to say. You got your ticket punched. It was the thing that helped you move to the next level. So while I can't tell you about a situation where someone who was a white racist poured their heart out to me with their honesty, I can tell you about what it was like to be a reporter and to know that part of the reason that black reporters and producers were assigned to these campaigns is that some of our news organizations didn't really take it seriously. And they thought maybe we might have. Have some specific inroads, or they could just give us that assignment and somebody else would get the bigger, more important assignment, but something that you can't look away from, and so we have to cover it. He was starting to get a lot of attention in Iowa and New Hampshire, so he couldn't be ignored. After he had helped get the release of Goodman, then that meant that there was some international attention to what he was doing.

Yehuda Duenas (44:56)

Just to clarify, Robert Goodman, a Navy flyer who was sort of captured behind. I think he'd been on a reconnaissance mission, and unfortunately, his plane went down in an area that was hostile to the United States, and Jesse Jackson went and negotiated his release, which he went on to do a number of times. And so after that, you think it kind of changed things a little bit?

a' Lelia Bundles (45:18)

Yes, it did make a big difference, because now you couldn't ignore him. He had actually had an achievement, a diplomatic achievement that the US Government had not been able to do on its own. So you couldn't ignore him.

Yehuda Duenas (45:31)

And his showing was more than people thought it would be. What was he good at? I know people have been playing clips of his speeches, that famous I am somebody chant. He actually appeared on Sesame street, which is kind of a pinnacle of mainstream acceptance.

a' Lelia Bundles (45:46)

I am, I am somebody, somebody.

Yehuda Duenas (45:50)

Certainly he was a gifted speaker, but what else was he good at? Like, why do you think his campaign achieved what it did?

a' Lelia Bundles (46:00)

Well, he was a gifted speaker. He was very charismatic. And sometimes people might have made sort of light of the rhyming that he did, but that rhyming and then the real analysis that he would make of whatever the political situation was, he could boil it down in ways that everybody could understand so he could have these sort of big political thoughts, these big policy thoughts. But he brought it home in a way that resonated with people that made a huge difference. But I think he also had, from his own experience, that authenticity of, I have been the one who is down and out, and I'm going to give you a reason to believe that you don't have to stay there. People understood that.

Yehuda Duenas (46:48)

One of the things that is noteworthy is that a lot of political activists worked on his campaign and got organizing experience that they later translated into their own campaigns. Can you sort of talk a little bit about just the political impact that he had, kind of beyond his own race?

a' Lelia Bundles (47:05)

Well, so I would say there were many people who were. Ernie Green, one of the Little Rock Nine, was always around as one of the advisors. But I would say, especially women, you know, Donna Brazile, really, who became the first black woman to lead a. To be a campaign manager for a major presidential campaign, the Gore campaign, the Albert Gore campaign. So she says he taught her everything. She was still a young person, and he gave her confidence that she could organize. And then she went on to an incredible career in politics. Mignon Moore, who was the chair of the Democratic convention in 2024, these are women who he brought to the table. He said, I believe in you. I trust you. And those people were able to leverage that into political influence later on. He really did give a lot of people opportunities.

Yehuda Duenas (48:06)

Some of the things that people may know about him, though, are some of the lower points, like the episode where he used, in what I think he thought it was a private conversation, he used an anti Semitic epithet to describe Jewish people. But talk about that. It's hard for people to square that person with a person who was working so hard to create kind of a multiracial coalition in a way that really had not been achieved sort of politically.

a' Lelia Bundles (48:38)

You know, that incident has many, you know, many iterations, and it's a little murky on exactly what happened. I was not in the room, so I can't say exactly what happened, but it did. You know, this use of a slur really did do tremendous damage to his campaign. I think he already had some skepticism from some Jewish leaders even before this happened, happened. And that just really threw the campaign into a tailspin. I think over time, he finally said, look, I did this. I'm sorry. That I did this. I didn't mean it in this way, that sometimes he was too casual with people. You know, some of it was the guy who's born in 1941, who grew up in the segregated south, who sometimes used slang colloquialisms.

Yehuda Duenas (49:35)

Colloquialisms are slang. But nevertheless, though, how do you understand that? You spend a lot of time together, driving around in small cars and in caravans and in buses and being tired together. So how do you square the person who said that in private with a person who was working so hard in public to do the opposite?

a' Lelia Bundles (49:55)

You know, Reverend Jackson, you know, like all of us, was a really complicated person person. There are flaws. There are things that people have criticized and things in his personal life, there are flaws. And he had them. Certainly, I think when I look at the overall assessment, I have to say, yes, there were things that he did that, you know, made other people, made people uncomfortable, things that were not particularly flattering to him. But when you assess the whole person, he is someone who opened doors for other people. He's someone who gave people confidence. He changed the way the Democratic Party counted delegates. That opened the door for Barack Obama. So, yes, on balance, he's a person who was a visionary, who made a huge difference, but he definitely had flaws. You can't ignore that when you're looking at the whole man.

Yehuda Duenas (50:51)

Interestingly enough, President Trump actually released a statement praising Jesse Jackson as a force of nature. He noted that he provided office space to the Rainbow Coalition, worked with Reverend Jackson on criminal justice reform, which is true long term HBCU funding, which is true opportunity zones that was in his first term, and also asserted that Jackson helped pave the way for Obama's election. Could you just say more about how he paved the way for Obama's election?

a' Lelia Bundles (51:16)

Well, I think, you know, we have to mention Ron Brown here. Ron Brown was chair of the Democratic National National Committee and was very much an ally of Reverend Jackson's. And at that point, primaries were winner take all. And it was really through that sort of backroom policy change that primaries became proportional. Your delegates became proportional to the number of votes you had gotten in the primary. That was a huge change because it meant that if you had one candidate who might won by 51% of the vote, that person would have gotten all the delegates. To be able to divide that up opened the door both for Reverend Jackson to get a certain number of primary wins, but it certainly opened the door for Barack Obama when he was first running. And that when you look at the difference that would have been whether Barack Obama would have been the nominee or Hillary Clinton would have been the nominee. I, I think that policy change made that difference.

Yehuda Duenas (52:20)

We've talked about him as a civil rights activist, and of course, we've kind of moved past the fact that he was actually with Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. When he was killed. I mean, he was there in Memphis at that motel. He was one of the last people to see him alive. But so fast forward, how do you position Jesse Jackson as sort of a figure in the American story? What would you say if you were writing his biography?

a' Lelia Bundles (52:45)

You know, that he is a person who was born in the segregated Jim Crow south where black people had few rights. You were a laborer, you were not even having the right to vote in most instances. He also was a person who, because he was born out of wedlock, was supposed to feel shame. And he took that those personal experiences, he expanded them to look at ways to involve and to engage African Americans and other people who were disenfranchised to create this coalition. And you could see that born in 1941, that means before World War II, that he then went through the Jim Crow, Crow south, through the opening of civil rights legislation, he was able to tap into that, to take advantage of that, to be a part of what Reverend Martin Luther King was embodying, and then to say, we are going to have a position on the American stage, we're going to be integrally involved in politics, we're going to be integrally involved in corporate America, and we want to have our place and our share. It was a coalition, it was diversifying. It was diversity and inclusion and equality. Those are things that he embodied. And even though we are seeing a pushback on that, I think that people are going to think of him as a visionary. And while some people are saying, is this the end of an era? I think it is a reminder that as we will see with the funeral services, the memorial services, that we will see some of these new young people who are inspired by what he represented, taking that mantle.

Yehuda Duenas (54:48)

A' Lia Bundles, thank you so much for talking with us.

a' Lelia Bundles (54:51)

Thank you.

Christiana Amanpour (54:53)

And that is it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin (55:02)

News cycle making your head spin. The have I Got News for you Crew is here to help with a comic take on the week's headlines. New episodes, Saturdays at 9 on CNN and next day on the CNN app.