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- [00:04]
Bianna Golodriga
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:08]
Marco Rubio
I feel very optimistic that we can get something done here.
- [00:12]
Bianna Golodriga
America's push for peace in Ukraine. Trump and Rubio celebrate progress, but Ukrainians express fear over Moscow's demands we break down the 28 point plan with former member of Zelenskyy's government, Timofey Milovanov. Then Israel strikes Beirut, leaving at least five people dead and dozens injured in an attack the IDF claims successfully targeted Hezbollah's chief of staff. We have the details.
- [00:39]
Audie Cornish
Plus, Daddy, where's my bone?
- [00:42]
Nabe Boulos
Mummy is working. Alfred.
- [00:44]
Bianna Golodriga
God, love and war conflict. Photographer Lindsay Addario and award winning filmmaker Jimmy Chin joined Hari Sreenivasan to discuss their new film about the toll of bearing witness on the front lines. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. Something good may just be happening in Geneva. Those were the words of US President Donald Trump in an optimistic post hinting at progress on his proposal for ending Russia's war in Ukraine. But the 28 point peace plan has sparked alarm amongst Kyiv and its allies due to the large concessions Kyiv would have to make from ceding large amounts of territory to shrinking its military. Many suggest Trump has allowed Moscow to dictate the terms. But. But it seems that steps forward have been made since those initial concerns with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's close aide Andrei Yermak, now also touting, quote, very good progress in the negotiations. The devastating strikes on Terinopil in the west of Ukraine, which killed more than 30 people, serve as a reminder of the cost of war. Correspondent Matthew Chance has been following these developments on the ground in Geneva and spoke to US Secretary of State Marco Rubio during this weekend's talks between Washington and Kyiv.
- [02:21]
Matthew Chance
From everything we've heard from the Americans, from the Europeans and from the Ukrainians themselves, they're very positive about the idea that these, these negotiations have taken place. They're saying they're very constructive. They're saying that, you know, progress was made. But what they're not telling us are any details about what kind of progress, about what specifically Ukraine has agreed to or what specifically has been put into this deal to make it more acceptable to the Ukrainians. But obviously there are big issues that, that have to be addressed, issues about, for instance, territory. Should Ukraine surrender as Russia demands more of its territory, even territory that hasn't been captured yet by the Russians? Has Ukraine indicated to you that it's prepared to Compromise, for instance, some of those key issues like territory in exchange for peace with Russia. Have they suggested that they are prepared to.
- [03:26]
Marco Rubio
Well, I'm not going to look. It's not because for purposes of evasion, it's just I'm not going to get into the details of the topics that were discussed because this is an ongoing process. What is important to understand and how these things work is you have to in order to have a proposal, you have to write it. If it's just verbal, it's in the air, you have to put it down on a piece of paper. And just because it's printed on a piece of paper doesn't indicate finality. So you get input, and based on that input, you make adjustments and then you get more input, or you make a counter offer and you get more adjustments. That's an ongoing process. There's a lot more of that to happen. So I'm not going to speculate or go into the details of any of the specific items in the latest version of the proposal because frankly, by tomorrow or the next day that may have evolved and changed further. But I can tell you, I guess, that I feel very optimistic that we can get something done here because we made a tremendous amount of progress.
- [04:16]
Matthew Chance
What are you going to tell President Trump about the attitude of the Ukrainians during this negotiation?
- [04:20]
Marco Rubio
Oh, it was very positive. I'm telling you. Today was the most productive day.
- [04:22]
Matthew Chance
They were ungrateful earlier.
- [04:24]
Marco Rubio
Well, today, and we've talked to him since. I think he's quite pleased at the reports we've given him about the amount of progress that's been made.
- [04:31]
Matthew Chance
And so it's not just a question of making Ukraine happy and making the Europeans happy. It's a question of would the Russians accept any new proposals that stop short of its full objectives and full demands in this conflict? So far, they've refused to compromise at all. And there's really no suggestion that we've had from Moscow that it would be any different this time.
- [04:58]
Bianna Golodriga
Our thanks to Matthew Chance for reporting there for us. Well, this push towards peace comes at a time when the Ukrainian president is under a microscope at home. His government faces a major corruption scandal, and my next guest knows the inner workings of Zelenskyy's government quite well. Having served as Minister of Economic Development and Trade, Timofey Milovanov is president of Kyiv School of Economics, and he joins me now live from Kyiv. Timofey, thank you so much for taking the time. We have had a case of serious diplomatic whipl over the past 48, 72 hours yesterday, President Trump called Ukrainian President Zelensky ungrateful. This morning, he's posting about big progress being made here. Clearly there's been a lot of cleanup that Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Marco Rubio has stepped up to do on the global stage there in Geneva over the weekend. He now says that he is quite optimistic, said these were the most productive talks that they've had in amending the, the initial 28 plan proposal that was skewed quite favorably towards Russia and not Ukraine. Do you share Secretary of State Rubio's optimism?
- [06:10]
Timofey Milovanov
Well, you know, I'm not inside the room, but I'm also optimistic. And there are a lot of symptoms or signs which are telling that maybe something is going to be happening. For example, we don't see Russian side actively sabotaging the process. We don't see them leaking information. We see them undermining our team. We also see that, indeed, this sort of back and forth of the attitude of President Trump is changing quite fast, faster than it usually happens. And if you remember, for example, the deal, the investment deal, the minerals deal that Ukraine and the United States have been discussing, the initial proposal from the United States was draconian, was completely unacceptable, was basically violating sovereignty of Ukraine. And in the end it came down to something manageable and where all parties benefit. I think currently the situation is much more difficult. It's difficult to find a win win here between Russia and Ukraine. But definitely, I think all parties are interested in ending the war.
- [07:18]
Bianna Golodriga
That includes Russia.
- [07:21]
Timofey Milovanov
I think so. I think so, yeah. Well, you know, we never know with Russia because, you know, you are right, this is the fundamental question, is this an ultimatum or is it an opening bid? If it is an opening bid, I think we will be somewhere, we'll get somewhere. If it is, again an ultimatum, if Russia is not willing to move on those 28 points, some of those points are, you know, not at all different from what we have seen in Istanbul or before the full scale invasion. So if Russia is not willing to compromise, then basically, I think no peace deal is possible. But, you know, from the previous conversations or negotiations with Russia, we saw that that becomes clearer almost immediately. So I think today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, it will become clearer.
- [08:07]
Bianna Golodriga
So what points then? Because you're right, we haven't heard a concrete response from the Russian side here, though we do see it in terms of continued bombardment and we see the consequence on human life and the toll that has had on the country now as the war is approaching its fourth year. But what are the Terms here you think that both President Zelenskyy would sign off on and also to get Ukrainians in parliament to agree to. Because at the end of the day, even before President Trump's administration, even President Biden, his advisers had acknowledged that there are going to be some tough concessions that Ukraine will ultimately have to make here to bring this war to an end.
- [08:50]
Timofey Milovanov
Well, absolutely. So, you know, one point is that Russia always attacks and intensifies during negotiations. So the fact that they are attacking Ternopol or they're attacking other cities is actually considerable with them negotiating. We have seen it during Mings 1 agreements, Mings 2 agreements. I've observed it being in the government. I couldn't understand it then. It wouldn't make any sense to me. But they would bomb and kill Ukrainians exactly when they are negotiating. So that's their way of putting pressure and bargaining, which is awful. But this is not atypical. Then you are absolutely correct. President Zelensky faces a very tough domestic audience right now. And this recent crisis in Ukraine, Ukraine, crisis of governments, crisis of transparency and accountability, that actually has generated some dissent in his own party and the government is working hard to get the party back aligned. So there'll be probably some changes domestically, both political in terms of governance and rules. But you know, going back to the points, you know, what is important for Ukrainians is to ensure that this ceasefire or peace deal will not be short lived, that there are real security guarantees in whatever form, that Russia doesn't get itself in a position that it can walk over or roll over Ukraine again in the future, in a year or two or when they please. So, you know, specifically what goes really badly in Ukraine is the point of reducing the military of Ukraine, because that's exactly what we need to protect ourselves. I think that's going to be a very critical point for Ukraine. Then we can talk about territory, giving up territory. It's probably an absolute, you know, insult to every Ukrainian. I'm saying probably that even to those who might be completely exhausted from Ukraine from the war, who might be somewhere on the sidelines, you know. But I think everyone thinks that if we give up territories because Russia is speaking about specific territory, if we give up that territory, that opens up a possibility, strategic possibility, for them to roll onto Dnipro on and basically have some version of Afghanistan scenario that President Biden unfortunately had to deal with. So that's what Ukrainians want to avoid. I think these are the main two points, but there are others.
- [11:14]
Bianna Golodriga
Right? Because Russia is demanding land that they don't even fully occupy and control at this point. And you're right to mentioni've heard from other members of parliament just the outrage at the idea of shrinking its military forces to some 600,000. Why would you do that unless, unless you're planning one day to attack again. And then the other issue I have to say as part of this 28 point plan that I just, I find difficult for Ukrainians to accept and Europeans too because they're on the line here as well. And that is no real accountability. Broad amnesty for Russia to be readmitted into the global stage and sanctions relief and no use of Russia's foreign investment funding and those frozen assets and the rebuilding of Ukraine. Would that be acceptable for Ukraine if let's say Russia gave up on the size of its military and even some of the land, but the fact that there would be no real accountability, would that be acceptable?
- [12:21]
Timofey Milovanov
I think no. But I think those are bargaining points because it's very difficult to imagine how is it possible to enforce no accountability. Basically everyone abandons under the guidance of direction of the United States, United States, the great democracy here actually in fact. And you know, I've been in the United States for many years. I've taught there and I've lived there and to me it's a country which is based on great principles. So you know, basically saying that you can violate the international law, the human rights, the foundations of democracy and simply, you know, buy your way out by walking away through amnesty and you know, even getting your funding out and you know, not being accountable at all. I think it's going to basically change the world. Not only, you know, it's not only hurting Ukrainians, I think it's going to change the world completely. So that's why I think it's not going to happen.
- [13:16]
Bianna Golodriga
You mention the backdrop of all of this happening with a major corruption scandal unfolding and some of the most significant domestic pressure on President Zelensky since this war began. Let's give our viewers just more information and insight into this scandal. Members of his inner circle are accused of siphoning off and laundering about 100 million doll worth of state owned nuclear power company. You resigned from the board of that company saying your anti corruption proposals were ignored. Talk about how significant of a risk this scandal posed to President Zelenskyy's presidency and perhaps the timing now of this 28 point plan some are viewing as a lifeline in a sense for President Zelenskyy domestically. Would you agree? Because that may seem a bit bit off and hard to balance both that one would lead him to less popularity, the other would boost popularity. But that's how some are interpreting it.
- [14:21]
Timofey Milovanov
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of a myopic take on this. I mean, you know, almost Makiavelin are very cynical to believe that, you know, the president of Ukraine will trade off sovereignty or territory or even use the opportunities presented by negotiations or maybe by resisting to the pressure that Russia and partly the United States is putting on him, you know, to save his political future. I think his entire political future depends on two things. One is what kind of deal will happen, when will the war will be over, you know, what will happen with Ukraine, will Ukraine stand as a sovereign country? And the second one, what happens, you know, internally. What's, you know, how ethical are people around him, how well the governance is. So what people were doing while some are dying, others have been enriching themselves. So, you know, I think he's in incentives actually are aligned to do his best and perform the best on both. And I think it is true that the domestic scandal has weakened him, but it also has given him an opportunity to demonstrate cleanup measures. And I think the government has been doing quite proactive, much more proactively responding to the scandal that I have expected. But however, I think we'll wait and see.
- [15:41]
Bianna Golodriga
Yeah, no, I'm by no means suggesting that he orchestrated this 28 point plan to deflect attention from the scandal. I'm just saying the timing coming when the scandal is plaguing him domestically now, the ultimatum given by President Trump to accept a deal that even Europeans viewed as capitulation may have given him an extra lifeline here. That was the argument I was making.
- [16:07]
Timofey Milovanov
Yeah, yeah, so, so I think the timing indeed is conspicuous. And you know, what is being discussed in Ukraine also. I think maybe I didn't mean to suggest that. Okay. But I, I, the point which many people are making in Ukraine is, listen, that maybe Russia is behind all of this and it's timing it properly. Seeing you like using the opportunity that there is a scandal domestically. So presumably Zelensky is weakened. Okay, let's put pressure on him. I think that and it, every time it backfires, you know, now we've seen that every time Russia does something like that, it backfires because it actually, you know, people understand that domestic politics is domestic politics, but Ukraine future is most important.
- [16:45]
Bianna Golodriga
Yeah. And it was interesting that you said in an interview to the Wall Street Journal over the weekend that President Zelenskyy's ability to sell this deal to The Ukrainian people is much higher than many would think. Explain why.
- [17:02]
Timofey Milovanov
Well, so, you know, okay, I don't want to be too much of a nerd. I'm a professor of economics, of games.
- [17:07]
Bianna Golodriga
I'm married to an economist. So we welcome nerds here.
- [17:12]
Timofey Milovanov
Okay, so, you know, you ban those things, you know, when you need to, you know, usually you face multiple audiences. President Zelensky has to please so many stakeholders. Europeans, the Americans, that's the external stakeholders. But the multiple audiences domestically, his own party, general public, opposition figures, wannabe presidents, his competitors, if he decides to run in the future. So he has to manage all of this. And so it's easier to manage when he has some political decisions to make which reflect simply domestic politics. So I think if I were him, I mean, I'm not him, but that's my advice, should never be taken. But if I were a game theorist in his shoes, I would delay on firing or hiring or appointing or reshuffling the government or doing other positions until becomes clear what the deal is. And therefore I would be able to offer some positions to get some votes. Basically, that's the usual political stuff. And I think people do not understand it because at least they view it as two separate issues. I think bundling will make a lot of sense, and we can do simultaneously, a peace deal, if it's acceptable for Ukraine, and we can do a corruption cleanup.
- [18:24]
Bianna Golodriga
All of this diplomacy can sound abstract, especially when it's coming from safe countries in cities thousands of miles away from where you are in Kyiv. But as the country is entering a its fourth year of bombardment, another cold winter, we see what Russia's intentions are here in targeting not only civilians, but the infrastructure. Just give us a sense of what life is like right now. The mentality of average Ukrainians who have weathered so much.
- [18:50]
Timofey Milovanov
Well, you know, I've bought a lot of firewood, you know, for my apartment, and I have a little stove. And I think a lot of people have done that. You know, yesterday a friend went to a movie theater. He said he didn't, you know, he hadn't gone there for a year, but they need to live a life. So they go there, and there's a blackout in the middle. And people, you know, like the administration comes in and says, oh, wait for 10 minutes. We'll start generators. And our students, you know, today actually, we had the student debate. There are the elections among student government, and there was a blackout just in the middle of it. And they continued to debate vigorously. And as one of them said, it's important to be heard, not necessarily to be seen.
- [19:34]
Bianna Golodriga
I mean, you just think of what Russia had imagined happening nearly four years ago, taking over Kyiv, taking over the country in a matter of days and weeks. And here we are nearly four years later. Yes, blackouts tragically, so many lives lost, but your classes continue and life in this very, very dangerous and unfortunate reality continues also in Ukraine. Thank you so much. Really appreciate the time. Timofey Milovanov, thank you. All right. And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.
- [20:16]
Audie Cornish
This week on THE Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Alison Morrow is here. She's the senior writer for CNN Business. The smartest people I've talked to who are analysts who understand the markets and the economy and how they inter say.
- [20:31]
Jimmy Chin
Absent all the AI infrastructure building and.
- [20:34]
Audie Cornish
Wall street investment, we are in a recession almost certainly. So as we head into the holidays with all the stress and spending that can bring, how are we supposed to navigate it all? Well, we're going to have some answers. Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.
- [20:59]
Bianna Golodriga
Turning now to Beirut. Israel says that it killed Hezbol, second most senior figure in an airstrike and quote, precise blow to those who attempt to harm the state of Israel. Despite a nearly year long ceasefire, the IDF claims the strike was intended to stop the organization from strengthening its capabilities. Lebanese officials say at least five people were killed in the attack, which Hezbollah calls treacherous. While there have been a number of Israeli attacks in the Hezbollah controlled south, this is the first attack in Lebanon's capital since since June. For more on what this means for the fragile peace in the region, let's bring in Middle east bureau chief for the Los Angeles time, Nabe Boulos. He joins me now from Beirut. Nabih, it's good to see you again. So Israel says it struck because this figure, who they essentially called the acting chief of staff of Hezbollah, Ali Tabateh, was rebuilding Hezbollah's military capability in violation of of the ceasefire. From your vantage point now, why did Israel choose to take such a risk given the fragility of this ceasefire?
- [22:10]
Nabe Boulos
Well, one should say, I mean, it hasn't really been fragile because I would argue that the ceasefire has not really been followed. If you look at UNIFIL figures, we are talking about thousands of Israeli violations that have been recorded and Hezbollah in truth has not really responded. Now the Israelis are saying that what has been happening is that Hezbollah has been violating the terms of the ceasefire in the sense that it is rebuilding its capabilities in the south. But in terms of actual kinetic action and response to an Israeli attack, we haven't seen anything from Hezbollah for a long time now. And this has not changed with the killing of Taptaba' I either. In fact, today, I mean, there have been some expectations that there would be some kind of retaliation. But word is that Hezbollah is favoring the poem in this case.
- [22:53]
Bianna Golodriga
Right. And Hezbollah has now confirmed his death, says that Israel did cross a red line. For our viewers who are not familiar with this man, his role in Hezbollah, he was one of the senior figures who was not assassinated last year when Israel was not only targeting Nasrallah and the head of Hezbollah, but also many other senior leaders. America also had sanctions on him and I believe a multimillion dollar bounty. Who is he?
- [23:28]
Nabe Boulos
Well, Pachi, it's quite interesting. His picture had not been seen before he was killed, as has been the custom with a lot of other Hezbollah leaders. But it's clear that Taptaba' I was an important figure. He was involved apparently. Well, I mean, there has been a biography released since his death by Hezbollah and apparently he had been involved with Hezbollah since the 90s. He was involved in some of their first operations and was in charge of some of the the fronts during its confrontation with Israel. This was before 2000 and then also 2006. And also he was involved in training cadres in Yemen and Syria. So he's been involved in those operations as well. After the killing of FADL of Shukar, which happened last year, he apparently had taken over the position of chief of staff. But this is someone who although has not been very well known, he clearly has been involved in a lot of Hezbollah's operations. But it should also be said that he apparently was one of three senior commanders still was alive after the, I guess, all out war that happened last year. So actually it's quite notable because this is someone who in theory should have been aware of the security protocols, the security requirements after the killing of all this leadership that happened before. And yet we saw that he was targeted and killed. It's also notable that he was killed in Beirut in the southern suburb known as Dahil. Now I should note here just for the viewers, that Bahia is not, you know, we often use the word stronghold in Western media. But the fact is this is a neighborhood, which is to say that you have stores, cell phone shops, supermarkets, et cetera, et cetera. This was very much a residential neighborhood and residential street on which he was killed on. And it's notable because the fact is that this is not the first time A senior Hezbollah commander has been killed in Beirut. But it is the first time in quite a few months that we've seen it happening after the all out war, as I said. And it's, and in theory Hezbollah should have been aware of the security requirements. It should also be noted that Haytham had been, there have been attempts to kill him in the past. He supposedly there was an assassination attempt against him in 2015 in Syria. So this was someone who was known for the Israelis. And yet Hezbollah seems to not have taken the proper precautions.
- [25:32]
Bianna Golodriga
We spent a great deal of time last year talking about what a blow Israel's attacks on not only Hezbollah leadership but its infrastructure, missile depots had been. Where is the group in terms of trying or attempting to reconstitute? Israel says that that's exactly why they took him out, because as the chief of staff, one of the highest officials there, he was already working on attempts to rebuild their military capability. How capable is Hezbollah today, one year later?
- [26:08]
Nabe Boulos
Well, it's a great question. The fact of the matter is that if you hear some Israeli and US Officials say the group still is, is, is a menace in the sense that it has anywhere from 15 to 20,000 rockets and missiles and that it is rebuilding its capabilities with more cadres being recruited and at the same time that the third rank leaders have now moved up to the second rank and etc. Etc. Now the fact of the matter is that that may well be true in terms of it having those missiles, but it has not shown any ability to fire them recently or even during the war. One should say when it came to the, I mean it fired primitive missiles, but those sort of large, you know, these like, large, like ballistic missiles that could cause some major damage in Israel that never actually materialized. And so it really is now a question as to what remains of the group's ability, especially in the south of Lebanon now elsewhere in the country, that remains to be a different question. But even with that being said, we actually don't know what's happening with Hezbollah in terms of an organization right now, Right? I mean the fact of the matter is that in the past the idea of decapitation strikes, I mean the idea was that they were not very effective. But the fact of the matter is if you, if you hit everyone on that chain of command, then eventually it will have a toll. And it's actually interesting to note that in terms of the senior leadership remaining after the war, only two remain, right? One of them is called Tal Alhamiyeh and the other one is Mohammad Haydar. And both of those people have not been killed yet. So I mean, the fact of the matter is the veterans of the group are now lost. And so you are seeing new cadres maybe being recruited, but they certainly will not have the same experience as those who have been killed. And all this to say that of course Hezbollah has been weakened. How weakened in terms of it being, I'm going to say, a force that can fight on the ground in terms of like guerrilla warfare, that's a separate question. But whether it can actually wage attacks on Israel, that I think is clear that it is severely weak.
- [27:57]
Bianna Golodriga
Well, a sign of its weakening grip was the optimism and the news of a new elected government. And that was General Joseph Aoun, who's been president now for nearly a year. There had been hopes that by this election, some of the comments that he had made and conversations even behind closed channels with the Israelis, but specifically with the United States states, that they would be a stronger force against Hezbollah. Where is that government on that issue today? Have they been able to restrain Hezbollah forcefully enough? We know Israel's answer to that question, but let me ask you.
- [28:40]
Nabe Boulos
Well, so the army has been saying that it is slowly disarming Hezbollah and that it is taking control of the south. Now part of the issue is that you have I suppose a declared or declared terms for the ceasefire and then there is perhaps a secret annex that has not been declared, which is to say that Hezbollah at this point understands the ceasefire as being only south of the Litany river, which say only south Lebanon, whereas the Israelis, Americans would say that they are talking about full on disarmament across the country. Now Hezbollah has said repeatedly that it will not accept that. And in its areas where it dominates in the Biqar, which is, which is at the east of the country and perhaps other areas away from the Saudi Arabia, it's clear that it still has some capabilities. Now the fact of the matter is the army has been taking over positions in the south of Lebanon. It has taken over Hezbollah depose, it has taken charge of the weapons there or it has actually controlled the already destroyed weapons that happened during the war. So there is progress. Now with that being said, the army says that the reason why it cannot take full control of the south is because the Israeli army remains in certain points and that if the Lebanese army approaches them, they would put themselves in danger. So we're now at a bit of a stalemate in that regard which say that the army here is saying they want to go and continue with their work, but they have two obstacles and One of them is their lack of capabilities and the other one is the fact that the Israeli army is still on Lebanese territory. And then the other force in this is that Hezbollah is not willing to disarm elsewhere. So we're in a statement, so we're in a stalemate actually in the regards of a full on disarmament. But the south at least right now, it perhaps will come to Dinuma sometime by the end of the year. With that being said, the army's in a bad position. I mean there are growing questions as to whether it can actually defend the country. And the fact of the matter is that even if there is, let's say, you know, impetus to do so, it simply doesn't have the ability in terms of weapons and also numbers. And the fact is that if it's going to be asked to attack Hezbollah, that would also cause issues of loyalty within the army's ranks and that would be a real problem in the country.
- [30:35]
Bianna Golodriga
So what's the role here, if any, for Washington? I know Washington and Paris sell broker the this cease fire. But specifically for Washington here, I think they've publicly said that they were not made aware of this targeted assassination. But there had been reporting that for months now. They obviously have not intervened in Israel constantly attacking Hezbollah facilities there, as you said, in violation of the cease fire. Israel saying that Hezbollah too was in violation and the Lebanese government was saying that Israel was in violation. So what if anything should the United States be doing to maintain this ceasefire?
- [31:17]
Nabe Boulos
Well, if the US actually does want to see any kind of progress in this, it would have to go some way towards restricting the Israeli attacks. The fact is that the President of the country here is not going to be willing or will not be able politically to move forward with a full on disarmament, you know, with this kind of attack still going on. That's one. And also the fact is that alongside these attacks you are seeing, I mean, a lack of any kind of rebuilding in the south of the country. And that's largely because of the Israeli army presence. So I mean the fact is the expectation is that Lebanon should be able to fulfill its role, but the people in the south right now cannot go home because there are still active army operations or still active Israeli presence there. Now with all that being said, the US can also play a role in terms of empowering the army and possibly, yes, pushing for a, let's say a faster, I suppose, implementation of the disarmament. But that requires funds and requires, I suppose monitoring on both sides at the same time. The real Issue is that there is no clarity as to what the ceasefire actually means. Oftentimes it seems that the Lebanese are ceasing while the Israelis continue firing. And that's a problem.
- [32:25]
Bianna Golodriga
This is the first strike, as we've noted, in Beirut in several months. In the final few seconds here for the show, you were there, which is always so helpful for our viewers to understand the reality on the ground. What has that been like over the past few months?
- [32:45]
Nabe Boulos
Well, the fact is where I live in Beirut actually is not very near the area of Adahi, so I'm in a, I suppose, a Christian, A Christian dominated neighborhood, I suppose, and it has been spared largely the effects of the war. With that being said, we're talking about only a few miles away. And so there are times when you sit and then you suddenly hear, you know, an explosion and things of that nature. Of course, you're always looking at the Israeli army Twitter to see if there are any kind of warnings for Beirut and the surrounding areas. It's actually quite surreal because, I mean, Beirut is a place that is very sadly accustomed to war. And so people have been able to go on with their lives and continue oftentimes as if nothing is happening. And you can see this actually, really in most places, I guess, that are at war, but especially so in Lebalancas is so accustomed to war, unfortunately. And the fact is that of course it makes for a surreal kind of living. I mean, you could be at a. At a birthday party and you suddenly get, I guess on your phone that there's an attack on Bahia and you hear some kind of a rumble, but you dismiss it. And of course the sounds of drones have become omnipresent. You constantly hear the tone of drones almost every day these days. So yeah, that's a part of life here, unfortunately. People have been live with it. Oh, sorry, pardon me.
- [33:53]
Bianna Golodriga
A common thread. No, no pardoning, no, no need to apologize. A common thread. I know you were listening to my conversation with Timofey just a few minutes ago from Kyiv and similar, similar their reality for those that have been living in war for so many years, they try to move on and create some sort of normalcy and every now and then are reminded of the war around them. Nabi Bolas, always good to see you. Thank you so much.
- [34:21]
Nabe Boulos
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [34:24]
Bianna Golodriga
Well, we turn now to northern Nigeria, where a true nightmare is unfolding for many parents. Armed bandits stormed a Catholic school in the state of Niger on Friday, kidnapping hundreds of students and teachers. While 50 pupils have since escaped and reunited with their parents, more than 250 children remain captive, some as young as 10 years old. Correspondent Larry Madoo has the story.
- [34:49]
Larry Madoo
Anxious parents scramble to pick up their children from a boarding school in Nigeria. The nightmare scenario of armed gangs kidnapping students has once again set the country on edge. The school in Kaduna state told parents the school was closing because of unspecified security threats.
- [35:07]
Nabe Boulos
They have to let children go for their safety. Their life is important, that their education.
- [35:13]
Timofey Milovanov
As far as now is concerned.
- [35:15]
Marco Rubio
So I think it's the best.
- [35:17]
Larry Madoo
Meanwhile, a mass abduction from a Catholic school in the neighboring Nigerian state of Niger is terrifying parents. More than 300 children and 12 teachers were kidnapped on Friday, though dozens of since escaped, according to the Christian association of Nigeria. All schools in the state of Niger have been closed and people across the country are demanding that the government provide more security at schools and churches.
- [35:42]
Audie Cornish
I don't think anybody feels safe what.
- [35:43]
Bianna Golodriga
Is happening in Nigeria presently because the.
- [35:46]
Audie Cornish
Kidnapping, the bandits everywhere, the killing, everybody's so scared even to sleep. If you are sleeping, I don't think.
- [35:53]
Bianna Golodriga
People are sleeping with their eyes closed.
- [35:55]
Larry Madoo
So far, no group has claimed responsibility for the abductions and authorities say tactical squads and local hunters are looking for the children. It's not a time for blame game.
- [36:05]
Timofey Milovanov
Our mission today is to see how we can rescue these children and all.
- [36:10]
Larry Madoo
Those that have been kidnapped in that incident. But there is a growing fear and anger across Nigeria about security concerns, especially after several brazen attacks in the past week. In western Nigeria's Kwara state, gunmen raided a church service, killing at least two people. Dozens of worshippers were kidnapped but have since been free and 25 female students were taken after armed men stormed a government boarding school in the northwestern Kebi state. Girls the violence once again putting Nigeria in the international spotlight. Just over a decade ago, there was a global outcry after 276 girls from a school in Chibok were kidnapped by the terror group Boko Haram. Many of those girls never returned home. US President Donald Trump has expressed outrage over the alleged persecution of Christians in Nigeria and has even threatened military action to protect Christians from Islamist insurgents, though radical groups in the area attacked both Christians and Muslims. Pope Leo also weighing in on Sunday, saying he is saddened by the incidents and appealed for the immediate release of the captives.
- [37:28]
Bianna Golodriga
Our thanks to Larry Mado reporting there. We'll be right back after a short. Next navigating war torn Sudan, hiding from explosions in Ukraine, even surviving kidnappings in Iraq and Libya. Photojournalist Lindsay Addario has spent more than two decades documenting some of the most dangerous places on earth. Now she's the focus of a new film, Love and War, which chronicles the struggle of balancing family lives with trips to the front lines. Here's part of the trailer. Lindsey has a very distinct ability to make memorable images, but also to be able to go out and find the story.
- [38:11]
Marco Rubio
She's really good at that.
- [38:12]
Hari Sreenivasan
He proved his inner pictures and that she's still alive.
- [38:15]
Audie Cornish
I want to have impact on policy and women's issues, but the best stories are in the most dangerous places. I have to constantly weigh, what will I risk my life for? You've never hugged me like that.
- [38:31]
Bianna Golodriga
Lynsey Addario and Oscar winning filmmaker Jimmy Chin join Hari Sreenivasan to discuss the duty and the danger of bearing witness to war.
- [38:40]
Hari Sreenivasan
Bianna, thanks. Lindsay Addario, Jimmy Chen, thanks so much for joining us. Jimmy, let me start with you. Your new film is tracking Lindsay A war Photographer's life. But if anyone knows of you, they probably know of you from your movies where you're literally climbing and shooting big mountains or Alex Honnold climbing, climbing El Capitan or somebody climbing Mount Everest. Why pick Lindsay and why pick this story?
- [39:05]
Jimmy Chin
Well, on a lot of levels, the stakes are even higher with the work that Lindsay does. You know, I've been following Lindsay's work almost my entire career and we have, we share a peer group, you know, of photographers. But I think when I first started thinking about this, this with my co director Chai, we really wanted to capture a story about not just an extraordinary conflict photographer or a photographer, but what it is to live that life, the weight of that responsibility, that weight of having a family at home and really give a clear picture of what, you know, someone like that life is like.
- [39:59]
Hari Sreenivasan
Lindsay, we've had you on the program multiple times to try to help our audience understand the stories that you help bring to the front. You're usually behind the lens. What is it like for you to be on the other side?
- [40:10]
Audie Cornish
Well, I mean, I had been asked to be the subject of documentaries before and I never felt like the time was right either I didn't feel like I was in the right place in my career or I didn't really feel like my life merited a documentary. And then when Chai and Jimmy approached me, of course I had huge respect for their work. I was a huge fan as well. And the timing felt more right in the sense that it was right at the beginning of the full scale invasion of Ukraine. I knew I would be embarking on a big project And I also had come to a point in my career where I had seen so many depictions of war photographers, be it fiction or nonfiction, and they were almost always men. And so I just felt like, you know, it's time we show what it's like for a woman, a mother, someone who has to come in and out, who, you know, for me, when I pack my bags, I have no idea if I'll make it home alive. And I think that it's very complicated because I really straddle these two worlds. It's frustrating. I'm constantly tortured, like I'm not in the right place. But I come back, I'm supposed to be really happy, and I feel like I should be there. And I feel like a bad journalist because I'm not. My head is always where I'm not. And I felt like once I accepted to do this project, I knew the drill. I mean, I knew exactly what, you know, what they would be asking of me. And I very luckily, the main photographer, cinematographer who shot all the home scenes was Thorsten Thielu, who was incredible to work with because he was a one man band. He didn't show. He showed up alone and he would just hang out for like, days on end. And that really worked for me because that's the way I work. And so, you know, everyone in my family felt comfortable with him. I respected his work ethic. I love the fact that he would be like, can I come at five in the morning before you wake up? Because I literally do the same thing to my subjects. So it kind of worked.
- [42:17]
Hari Sreenivasan
Yeah. Jimmy, why start the movie where you did? I mean, this is just days before the kind of official invasion of Ukraine. And you already see Lindsey and her partner just, you know, in the presence of Schelling. And, you know, Lindsay's trying to capture what's happening going on there.
- [42:35]
Bianna Golodriga
This is Lindsey Dario. In the village of.
- [42:38]
Audie Cornish
Of Nova Luhansk were being shelled.
- [42:42]
Hari Sreenivasan
Why was it important for you to kind of get the audience primed for, hey, this is what this film's about.
- [42:48]
Jimmy Chin
We went back and forth on what that opening scene would be, of course, I mean, that's a common debate when you're making a film. But I thought that it was just so raw and so real and it was like, okay, we're gonna just get right into it and show you what it's actually like. And obviously, I think it grabs people's attention, sets the tone, and I think it's the reality of what she does. And I love that. I was a big proponent of opening with that scene because then, you know, we then juxtapose it to when she goes back home, you know.
- [43:31]
Hari Sreenivasan
Yeah.
- [43:32]
Jimmy Chin
And I think that sets up the film and kind of the main. I wouldn't call it conflict, but the. The challenge that, you know, Lindsay is. Is facing through this film. And it's actually something that I'm also very familiar with. I work in very high stakes and fairly dangerous environments. And it's. It's a. It's kind of a weight that I understood from the beginning.
- [44:02]
Hari Sreenivasan
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Jimmy Chin
And to just see it right off the bat and kind of, you know, set that tone was really important.
- [44:11]
Audie Cornish
Where's my mommy?
- [44:13]
Nabe Boulos
Mommy is working, Alfred.
- [44:15]
Bianna Golodriga
Is it downstairs?
- [44:16]
Nabe Boulos
She's in another country, but she's gonna come back soon.
- [44:20]
Hari Sreenivasan
I wonder. There are these scenes in the film that kind of show how difficult it must be to hear your kids say, hey, Mommy, don't go back out. What is that conversation like in your heads when you are figuring out how to articulate this value structure that you have and why it's so important for you to do the work that you're doing?
- [44:39]
Audie Cornish
I mean, it's something that, of course, I wrestle with all the time. And it gets. You know, kids go through phases where they're more clingy sometimes, and other times they're fine. They understand. And I think, unfortunately, right now, with Alfred, my six year old, it's every single day, you know, do you have to leave? How long do you have to go? Why do you have to go? The other day he asked, did you just come from a war zone? I mean, he's sick. So, you know, there's definitely. There was a lot. But what I try to explain to him is that this is part of who I am. This is my job. I love what I do. It's a privilege what I do, and it's very important. And I will always come home. And I think that it's important for me to express that it's a positive thing. You know, I don't want it to seem negative that I'm going off to work, because I do love what I do. And I think that there are so, you know, there aren't that many people who feel the great sort of passion and privilege for what they love to do. And Jimmy's the same.
- [45:44]
Hari Sreenivasan
Lindsay, one of the stories that is profiled in the film as well is a woman in Sierra Leone that you took a photo of and you kind of got a little bit involved in as a reporter. And this is earlier in your career, and then later in the film, we kind of see that there maybe was a payoff that you didn't know about. Tell us a little bit about. Was it Mama Sise?
- [46:02]
Audie Cornish
Mamacisse. So, in 2009, I was named a MacArthur Fellow, and I really wanted to do something focused with that grant, and I started researching. And maternal death was at extraordinary rates at that point. It was 2010. More than 500,000 women a year were dying in childbirth. And Sierra Leone had one of the highest numbers of women dying in childbirth. And so I went there, and I went to the province where there were very few roads, there was one doctor in the entire province. And I went to the maternity ward where maternal deaths were very high. And as I walked in, I met Mama Sise, and she had been pregnant with twins, and the first baby she delivered in her village, and the second baby wouldn't come out. And so her sister, who was a midwife, sent an ambulance for her. To get to that ambulance, she had to take a canoe across a river and then an ambulance for six hours in order to get to the nearest hospital. And so I met her, and we talked for about an hour, and then she finally delivered the second baby. And she was bleeding a lot, and. And I was shooting video as well for the first time, ironically. And you can hear me saying, she's bleeding. Is that normal? And the midwives were just kind of mopping up the blood. And I said, is there a doctor? And they said, there's one doctor in the whole province, but he's in surgery. And I put my cameras down, and I ran to the surgical ward and literally put on scrubs and went into the surgical ward and said, I think there's a woman dying. And he just looked at me like, obviously, I'm busy. And so I ran back and I said, I don't know, pick her up and bring her to him. And her blood pressure at that point was 60 over 40, I think. And by the time he came out of surgery, she died. And that story was published across eight pages in Time magazine. And then a year later, I got a message from a board member at Merck, and he said, can I please meet with you? And he said, you know, when we saw your story of Mama Sisay, we distributed a copy of Time magazine to every board member. And at the end of the meeting, which was where they were discussing corporate responsibility, they decided unanimously to start Merc for mothers and put $500 million aside to fight maternal death. And it's not exclusively because of that story, but certainly, I think the Visuals and the stories. One woman who senselessly died in childbirth. It could have been prevented, really kind of spoke to them. And I think that that is the importance of journalism and of photojournalism. And to me, it really, you know, it's what we all strive for when we cover these human stories.
- [48:54]
Hari Sreenivasan
If Mama Sisse is an example of something that kind of fulfills your soul and recommits you to photojournalism, I've got to ask also about Libya and where you and other colleagues were kidnapped and held for six days.
- [49:10]
Timofey Milovanov
No word from four. New York Times journalist Lindsey Addario is among the missing.
- [49:14]
Larry Madoo
We didn't know if they were alive.
- [49:15]
Audie Cornish
Or if they were dead for six days.
- [49:18]
Hari Sreenivasan
And I wonder if surviving that, you know, what did that do to you when you came out of that? Did you think, maybe this isn't for me?
- [49:29]
Audie Cornish
Libya was brutal. I mean, Libya was. It was me, Tyler Hicks, Anthony Shadid, and Stephen Farrell for the New York Times. And we were held for six days, and we were tied up, beaten up, blindfolded, punched in the face. The men were smacked on the back of the heads with gun butts. I was groped by basically every man who came across us, Us, while blindfolded, which is obviously terrifying. And I think at the end of that, a few things happened. First of all, I was really grateful that we survived. Our driver did not. And I think it's important to understand how lucky we were. Less than a month later, two of my very dear friends and our colleagues were killed in Libya. And I think there's so much that happens in war that you can chalk up to luck alone. There's no reason we should have lived. And so I think just understanding how lucky we were just gave me that sense that there is a reason why I'm still here. I knew that I would have to renegotiate kind of danger in a way that I wouldn't get kidnapped again, of course, and that I couldn't put my family through that again. Not only my husband. I didn't have children at the time, but my parents and my sisters. And I think that that's also important because we do this job, but we also put our families through a fair amount of trauma. And I think that that is something that I have to live with. And that's why it's almost impossible for me to watch the film, because I can't dare to watch my family talk about how much they've suffered because of the decisions I've made professionally. And then I also realized that one Thing that really got me through Libya was the fact that I have met and photographed so many extraordinary women over the years who have suffered sexual assault. They are survivors of rape and, you know, under the most brutal circumstances yet, they had the courage to continue on. And I thought of them in those horrifically dark moments, and they helped me get through it. And I think that that's really important, to have that knowledge and experience and to be able to use their human spirit and resilience to help me get through.
- [51:56]
Hari Sreenivasan
Jimmy, I wonder what did doing this film about Lindsay, the type of work she does, going through huge archives of all of her work. What is kind of what's your takeaway from this? Both as a peer and a colleague and someone who's kind of a fan, but also as a parent who also does some dangerous things. Things.
- [52:14]
Jimmy Chin
We made the film because we felt that her work is really important and extraordinary and, you know, really falls within the sphere of the stories that are really important to me, where it's about the power of the human spirit, it's about the pushing the edge of the human potential. And, you know, what she does, I think very much falls into that. That category. The films have to mean something to me because we bleed for these films. You know, we work on them for years and years and years, and they have to say something important. I'm just inspired all the time with the work that I do, and I get to work with people like Lindsay.
- [52:57]
Hari Sreenivasan
The film is called Love and War. It is streaming now on Disney. Director Jimmy Chan. Lindsay Hadaria, thank you both for joining us.
- [53:04]
Audie Cornish
Thanks so much.
- [53:05]
Jimmy Chin
Thank you.
- [53:07]
Bianna Golodriga
All right, that is it for us for now. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from New York.
- [53:20]
Anderson Cooper
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. Why did no one tell us that to die is to be reincarnated in those we love while they're still alive? Poet Andrea Gibson, who died this summer, wrote those words. Tig Notaro was there when Andrea Gibson died, and we'll talk to her about what she witnessed and how it's made Tig rethink her own life.
- [53:47]
Bianna Golodriga
I have to say, it's really the.
- [53:49]
Audie Cornish
First time I've experienced a death in.
- [53:51]
Bianna Golodriga
The way that I have.
- [53:53]
Anderson Cooper
Talking grief, building community. New episodes of All There Is come out Tuesday nights. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.