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- [00:01]
A
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com it's all in the name.
- [00:40]
B
Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Europe's split with America is laid bare as NATO foreign ministers meet in Sweden. One ally is breaking ranks more than most. Spain clashing with Washington over Iran, Gaza, Israel and NATO itself. Is Madrid an outlier or the shape of Europe to come? I asked Spain's foreign minister then. He's the king of clay with 14 French Open titles among his 22 Grand Slams. And now a new Netflix series. Rafael Nadal speaks to me about glory, sacrifice and the price of greatness. Plus, the Musk Altman showdown. What the open air verdict means for the future. New York Times reporter Mike Isaac joins Hari Srinivasan. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. NATO foreign ministers are gathering in Sweden today as the alliance faces mounting strains. President Trump has repeatedly criticized NATO threatening action over Greenland. And now the Pentagon says thousands of US Troops will be pulled from Europe. One country has been especially outspoken, Spain all openly challenging Washington over its war in Iran and sharply criticizing Israel's Palestine policy. This week, Spain also condemned Israel for the on camera humiliation by the far right extremist Minister Itamar Ben GVIR and his treatment of detained activists aboard an intercepted aid flotilla that included dozens of Spaniards. Ahead of that key NATO meeting, though, I spoke to Spain's Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Alvarez about all of this. Foreign Minister Albares, welcome to the program.
- [02:38]
C
My pleasure.
- [02:40]
B
Let's just get to the heart of this issue of the intercepted flotilla. All those who are on it have now been deported back to their home countries, according to the Israeli government. But you were very angry. You called Minister Ben Gvir's actions, as we described, really humiliating. All those monstrous, undignified and humiliating. Did you ever get an apology from the Israeli government?
- [03:10]
C
No, not directly. I asked for one because I think that a country that says that it's a democracy doesn't behave in this way. You don't assault in international waters and you don't make illegal detentions. And in addition, you don't inflict such an inhumane and humiliating treatment to citizens democracies. We don't act like that. That's why I ask for those apologies. I haven't got them. I sought the Minister of Foreign affairs or the Prime Minister of Israel in their social networks to really talk against this action, but not like a formal apology to me and to many other countries in the world that we are asking for the same thing. And that's why Spain, with other European countries, we are asking for a ban of this particular minister into the European Union, as Spain has enforced since many months ago.
- [04:08]
B
That's interesting. Of course, you saw that Prime Minister Netanyahu and his foreign minister did post that this was not, you know, action by Ben GVIR in accordance with the norms and laws and sort of, you know, things of Israel. Are you convinced by their sort of wrapping him over the knuckles?
- [04:27]
C
No, I think that is better than saying nothing. But if in any democracy a minister would act and behave in that way, the next minute he wouldn't be a minister anymore. And that's a common responsibility of the Israeli government. And these actions must stop. It's not the first time that we see this sort of assault in international waters where no Israeli agent has jurisdiction on any of our citizens. And of course I find this appalling, outrageous and I cannot accept, and I will never accept that my citizens are treated in this way by anyone in the world.
- [05:08]
B
Now, you know that you've become sort of, you know, a bullseye target for the Israeli government because Spain does lead a very prominent pro Palestinian policy, rights for the Palestinian people. You, along with many now in the UN General assembly, do support a Palestinian state as is, you know, implicated in all the international laws around that. And you did lead an unsuccessful move to end the EU association agreement with Israel. And their foreign minister basically accuses you all in Spain of leading a hostile anti Israel line, they call it, you know, trying to divert from, quote, your severe corruption scandals through anti Israel, anti Semitic attacks. How do you respond to that?
- [05:57]
C
It's absurd and is ridiculous. Spain and its foreign policy, it's above all pro peace, pro peaceful coexistence, anti war. We will never accept that the only way that Israel has to relate with its neighbor is through war and through violence. There must be a way of peaceful coexistence and that is called the two state solution. Of course we support the existence of the State of Israel peacefully and in security. Of course, the people of Israel have a right to peace and security. We have condemned the horrible terrorist attack of Hamas on October 7. We have condemned and voted for every package of sanction to Hamas in eu. Hamas has nothing to do with the future of Palestine, but exactly the same right that the Israeli people has a peaceful and secure state has the Palestinian people and the Lebanese people and all the other people on the Middle East. We are the first government that has issued a strategy against anti Semitism. Here in Spain, we take it very seriously. But if they try to threaten us with that, no, we are not going to lower our voice in of front favor of peace and the respect of international law and human rights.
- [07:19]
B
Okay, Foreign Minister, talking about threats, you know, the President of the United States has threatened NATO. He's already announced the Pentagon will pull back, you know, thousands of troops from Germany and who knows where else in NATO. You're at a meeting in Sweden to prepare for the future NATO summit with world leaders. He complains a lot about the leads Spain takes, whether it's on NATO defense spending, on climate policy, immigration. You've really made it your business to challenge President Trump on these issues. And he responds by taking the kind of revenge I said regarding pulling back troops. Tell me whether you think this is a policy that's working for you. How does it help to pull back, you know, American troops from Europe?
- [08:08]
C
We really believe in the transatlantic relation, trade, of course, insecurity. We believe in NATO. We are a very committed ally. We have a historical deployment of almost 4,000 troops, a lot of them, most of them in the eastern flank of Europe. Our aeroplanes guarantee the security of the skies of the Baltics. Our troops are in Slovakia, in Romania. We at the government have done the largest and the fastest increase in our defense expenditure. It's 2.1 right now, more than some of the countries in NATO. And we have delivered all the capacities that have been requested. Not all the countries in NATO have done it. We want that transatlantic relation to be as strong as possible within the framework of our commune values and the respect of international law. But we are a committed ally. Nothing of what we or what we say goes against any ally. On the contrary.
- [09:09]
B
Yeah, except that you are calling for a European army. You say we can't live our lives waking up every day wondering what the US President is going to say about our defense. And you're not paying the 5% that the President is demanding.
- [09:25]
C
There are two things. One, we said since the very beginning that the debate should be on capacity, not in the percentage. We are 2.1, which is more than some of the members of NATO right now. There is no one that is paying 5% at this very moment. And our position was very clear since the very beginning. But we are delivering all the capacities. We got the defense expenditure in our country in 0.9 when we got to government. It's 2.1 right now, and we are delivering all the capacities. And when it comes to the European army, to have a strong pillar of European security reinforced, NATO and the United States invites us Europeans to take more of the burden of our security. So I find that this is complementary. European army and NATO are not two opposite things. On the contrary, they are complementary.
- [10:23]
B
There is a great big war going on. I mean, it's in some kind of sort of suspended ceasefire right now, but between the United States, Israel and Iran. We keep hearing some different things from the United States and Israel, often on the same day. Where do you think it's headed, particularly now that we hear U.S. intelligence saying that Iran is rebuilding their defenses, could rebuild within six months, and that President Trump is having, quote, strong talks or strong disagreements with Prime Minister Netanyahu, who wants continued war, while Trump wants to try the negotiated exit. Where do you think this is heading?
- [11:02]
C
I back the negotiation and I backed the mediation of Pakistan and other countries. I think that there is no really military solution. And the contrary, going back to the negotiating table can really tackle all the issues. Of course, Iran cannot have the nuclear bomb. Iran must stop the unjustified attacks on the other Middle Eastern countries. The affiliated groups of Iran must stop those attacks as well. Lebanon must be part of the global peace deal. And Hormuz must be reopened again with a free passage and secure passage and no charge at all for that passage. I think it's possible to get an agreement. Negotiations were going well right before the war. So I think that's the right path to make a sustainable and a stable peace instead of of keeping this status cool. That can lead to an escalade with really global consequences.
- [11:59]
B
What do you think of the consequences of the US Indictment of Raul Castro, former president and former defense minister of Cuba, sending in an aircraft carrier, the Nimitz, and basically increasing the pressure. You are going to be meeting Marco Rubio. I don't know whether you're going to ask him about this, but what is the plan and do you support the indictment? Because it does revolve around an issue where the Cubans did shoot down civilian little planes basically in cold blood with MIGs all those decades ago,
- [12:34]
C
we are very worried for the humanitarian situation of the Cuban people. Cuban people are brothers and sisters of Spain. As all the people in Latin America, we see the humanitarian situation, we try to help them with that, with food, with medical staff, with solar panels. And what I want for the Cuban people is exactly the same that I want for the Spanish people. Freedom, democracy, social justice, equality. But everything must be done in full compliance with international law and also guaranteeing the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Cuba. So that's where Spain is standing right now.
- [13:15]
B
But just briefly, do you think they're headed towards extracting Castro?
- [13:22]
C
I cannot answer that question. That's a question that only the government of the United States does.
- [13:29]
B
Now, it is not the best moment for your government and your country. Certainly your government, your party or the, you know, the prime minister's party lost very heavily in the local elections in Andalusia last weekend. And there's a huge corruption scandal going on, allegations, let me just say, prime minister's wife was charged with corruption. Former transport minister, another senior party official on trial over kickback allegations. And just this week, a former socialist prime minister was charged with money laundering, influence peddling and other criminal offenses. Given the extent of all of this, do you think it's time maybe for your prime minister to call new elections and try to clean up this, this slate that we're seeing right now?
- [14:15]
C
He has been very clear yesterday, saying that the parliamentary period will go to the end. When you see the results in our economy, when you see our falling policy, how it's really applauded by many countries in the world, when you see the rate of employment, never Spain had such a level. With 22 million people in our Social Security, there is no reason to stop. And the president is deciding to go until the end of the parliamentary period and call elections when the time will be legally there.
- [14:54]
B
And you're sure that this government still has legitimacy in the eyes of the people?
- [15:00]
C
Certainly this is something that we see in the parliament every day. This is a parliamentary regime and we can see it week per week.
- [15:10]
B
All right. Foreign Minister Albares, thank you so much for joining us.
- [15:16]
C
Thank you. My pleasure.
- [15:20]
B
And next to a Spanish sporting hero, my candid conversation with tennis legend Rafael Nadal. And a new documentary about pain and suffering along his record breaking journey. That's after the break.
- [15:40]
D
Finding a source you can trust for weather forecasts should be easy, Right? This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Check your daily forecast to plan your day. The Weekly forecast to see what's on the way and prepare for any major storm with our robust real time video coverage. The app is stunning. And if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in depth stories and the photo of the day. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.
- [16:15]
B
Now, my next guest needs no introduction. And with the French Open at Roland Garros coming up, the presence of its greatest champion will be sorely missed. Who else but Rafael Nadal, one of the greatest players ever to pick up a tennis racket? He retired almost two years ago, but now he's unveiling the struggles behind his legendary grit, from physical injuries to mental challenges. New Netflix documentary Rafa brings us the pain behind his 22 Grand Slams and the record 14 French Open titles. Here's some of the trailer. It is a searingly honest look. The documentary premiered in Spain this week and I spoke to the tennis great in Madrid, Rafael Nadal. Welcome to the program.
- [18:10]
E
Thank you.
- [18:10]
B
It's been about two years that you haven't been competing. How is retirement treating you?
- [18:15]
E
Very good.
- [18:16]
B
You like it?
- [18:17]
E
Yeah. Yeah, I never was afraid of that. And.
- [18:21]
C
Really?
- [18:22]
E
Yeah. Honestly? Yeah.
- [18:23]
B
Okay, we'll get to that in a moment as well, because throughout the documentary, you're struggling with when to and whether to.
- [18:30]
E
Yeah, but in, I mean, in a, in a way, because after my hip surgery, I wanted to give myself the proper time to know if the things will be like before or not in terms of feeling freedom, of all the way.
- [18:50]
B
At the end of the documentary, I was really taken by what you said. You said you stop being what you have been practically all your life. You go back to being just the person. This is, you know, 22 time Grand Slam winner, 14 time Roland Garros champion. You go back to being just the person. What does that mean?
- [19:13]
E
No, because in some way, I think when you are in front of cameras almost every week in tournaments, in some way I was lucky enough that I always came back home, you know, when I came back home to my origins, I always have been treated the same way. So in some way, I never lost that real life that I named. But in the other hand, you are a successful athlete. You are famous. You know, you receive a lot of attention from a lot of people. So in some way, you are living not in a fake world, but it's a part of your world. But I always considered that like a part of my life, that it's gonna end.
- [19:59]
B
You don't feel a hole inside?
- [20:01]
E
No, I mean, I enjoy it, of course, because of that I was able to enjoy so many unique experiences and privileges, without a doubt. But in the other hand, I always enjoyed being a little bit more just myself, my family, you know, being from a small village, different style of life.
- [20:25]
B
Well, it comes across obviously in these, in this four part Netflix series. This is obviously your journey from being a kid player to where you ended up. We'll talk about whether you're the greatest. The goat. Are you the goat? No.
- [20:40]
E
Are you sure? I mean, in terms of numbers. No.
- [20:44]
B
Yeah, but in terms of. It was very clear in the documentary that you were holding onto your Roland Garros titles. You don't think anybody will beat that?
- [20:53]
E
I mean, if I did, why not? But why not? Another one can comment and beat that. But that said, it's obvious that it's something difficult to repeat because I mean, you have to put a lot of things together and in some way you need some luck too.
- [21:11]
B
This is a documentary, I thought about pain and suffering. I mean, I really felt the pain halfway through and it was incredible. Also you did the documentary in 2024, a lot of it. And that was not a great year for you. It was a year where you were very, very injured that you had all these losses and you ended up retiring, having lost in Sweden. You decided to retire. Why did you decide to reveal this part to the world? It's the underlying pain and suffering, as if that was the point.
- [21:51]
E
I think it's about everything, you know, because I think in the documentary you want to see all the success, of course, all the, all the, all the great moments. But in the other hand, you always going to see the suffering, all the things that you are going through to try to be successful. And it's true that when I started filming the documentary, it was in 2024, end of 23, so was after my hip surgery. So I was late on my career, very late. And of course I came back from a situation that was very, very difficult. But I tried. And what I wanted to show in the documentary was my real life. And the real life is not only about playing Sundays, holding trophies on your hands and good things that, you know, there's another part of, of real life in the, in the professional athlete world. And that's my story.
- [22:52]
B
And it really is. And it's shown in excruciating detail. I mean, in 2005, when you were playing the match and you felt a crunch in your foot and it turned out you had broken something and it turned out that you had this very rare. Is it called Muller Weiss?
- [23:08]
E
Yeah.
- [23:09]
B
You said, I'm devastated, I'm destroyed, destroyed. This is in. In a car scene. You then had to wear an insole that. I don't know whether people knew about that, but to try to do everything you could to make it work. Tell me about that. What was it like having to play with that pain? Did you think you'd be able to have a long career after that? That was 2005.
- [23:32]
E
Probably that was the. The toughest part in my tennis career because that was just the beginning. 2005 was the first year that I won my first Grand Slam. I finished my year like a world number two. So that was one of the last tournaments of the year. So after that, it was just the beginning of my success. So in some way, when you receive all this news that maybe you will not be able to keep doing the same things as you are used to doing, in some way, you are projecting your future being a professional tennis player, thinking that you're going to have at least, I mean, seven, eight, ten years of being on the professional tour. That's why you have been practicing almost all your life. And in one second looks like, okay, now maybe you will not be able to. To keep doing what you are doing.
- [24:30]
B
So is it scary?
- [24:34]
F
Yes.
- [24:34]
E
Because at 19 years old, of course, you feel everything in a different way. You are very young. It's difficult to assimilate all these issues. But I was very lucky to have very good people next to me. And of course, I always hold the hope that things going to move forward and I will be able to keep playing. But the news for a couple of months haven't been positive. And at the end, it's true that we found a very drastic solution, but worked which was a very aggressive insult. After four months looking for solutions, trying different things was an insult that moved my foot 7 millimeters like this. So literally my foot was out of my shoe. And that's why I was lucky enough that day, that moment that I. I talked to Nike, I went to Portland straight away. I said, okay, like this, I looks like I'm gonna have the chance to keep playing tennis, so I need to fix that. And I was lucky enough that they make it very quick and completely new shoe special for my foot, you know, higher. You know, I mean, they basically construct a shoe just for my foot.
- [25:59]
B
You do express throughout the, throughout the documentary, anxiety and stress about all of this, which is presumably understandable. Your wife talks about it. You know, you, you went to see a psychiatrist at some point or a therapist to try to get through it. This is going to resonate with people all over the world, particularly men, young men. Tell me about the level of anxiety and stress having to go out, for instance, at one point with a bottle of water the whole time, you know, and how you work through that.
- [26:30]
E
Yes, I mean, probably because I went through a lot of injuries, a lot of pressure and rightful moment that in, in some way you are not able to handle all of this. And even if in my mind I was able to handle all of this arrive point that your mind fails, you know, and that's what, that's what happened. So when. Okay, I always thought that I need to fix things for myself in terms of mental, mental strength. No, but right from on that, when I was, my feeling was okay, I cannot go out on the street without a bottle of water on my hand. So, yeah, that's a big, that's a big deal. So I need to find help. And that's what I, I did. I went to a psychologist first. I said, okay, I mean, I tried, but I think that's not working. Because all the things that I am listening here, I, I knew already because I was very rational, let's say. But then I, I went to the psychiatry.
- [27:37]
B
Yes, psychiatrist.
- [27:38]
E
Psychiatrist. And then after that I, I started with some, yeah, some medication for a while and I was able to, to, to start feeling improvements. No. After a couple of months. And then of course, that was for around a year. And then of course I recovered and I never gained.
- [28:01]
B
And then towards the end, I mean, when you were in 2022, I mean, you won your 14th role on Garros, I was there, I interviewed you afterwards. I saw you in limping into the interview room because you had had to have injections in your foot and that John McEnroe in the series says, oh my God, he can do it without feeling his feet. What's he going to do next, blindfold himself and win? It was extraordinary. It was an incredible handicap. How did your talent, your practice, your muscle memory allow you to be able to stay upright and in direction even when you couldn't feel your feet?
- [28:37]
E
Because in some way I think I was prepared for all these things because I went through a lot during all my tennis career. I played all my career with basically the navicular bone of my left foot braked. I played with a lot of issues on my knees, so I had plenty of things. So I was used to this suffering. I was used to find always a way to keep being competitive and to find a solution and to that my tennis and my competitiveness to any situation? No. And I think because I was. I mean, I was educated a little bit like that since I was a kid.
- [29:20]
B
Talking about education, your main coach was your Uncle Tony. Very famous in tennis history. And everybody associates you with Uncle Tony. It seemed, though, he was very clear that you actually had to suffer to play. He, you know, would not let you drink water for an hour during training or something when you were younger, try to get you used to it in retrospect. Was that the way to get the best out of you, to push you to the brink?
- [29:50]
E
For me, it worked very well. I mean, that's all what I can say. No, I mean, every kid is different. Every human being have a different talent. And I. I had the talent to hold all those pressure, all this pressure. So I think if my uncle will see myself not ready to hold all this pressure, probably he will not do it. That's my point of view. And he did it because he wanted the best for me all the time. And of course, when you go to the limit, sometime you cross the line. I was not always perfect. I was. I was not always perfect. He was not always perfect, of course, but he always tried to do the things in the best interest of myself.
- [30:37]
B
Your rituals, I once asked you about it. A lot of people say it's ocd, whatever. And I asked you about your rituals when you won in Australia a few years ago, and you said, do you think I do this kind of stuff off the court? No, it's for me to feel in control and safe on the court. Tell me a little bit more about that, because you really do talk about it a lot in the documentary. You explain it.
- [31:00]
E
Yeah, because I think was. I mean, people approach that little bit like a superstition or that I. I need to do that. I mean, probably people, when they watch me do all of this on the court, they think that I am doing all these things in. In my real life, too. And it's completely the opposite. You know, I was very organized on a tennis court because probably all these issues helped me to stay focused and to don't think much on other stuff. Not just stay a little bit on my bubble. No, to be honest, outside of tennis court. I mean, you can talk with my people. I am not that organized. I don't have all these rituals, but that really helped me to stay focused on what I needed to be.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah, well, it worked. I mean, you know, obviously the record stands. Can I ask you about. It worked for me when I was asking you about, you know, the really intense training Mentally and physically you underwent. The young people coming up now, you can hear many of them women and male players saying, it's really intense. There's 11 months of the year of hard work and we're constantly pushing ourselves. Some are getting injured. Carlos Alcaraz is not playing, even he's pulled out of Wimbledon. He had caused some controversy or debate in the tennis world when he gave an interview that said, yeah, I actually like to go to Ibiza. I want to go dance, I want to take time off, you know, from the, from the gruelling schedule of the off, you know, off season. Do you think that's good?
- [32:34]
E
Everyone has a different personality, you know, I did too. You know, I was not a guy. That was my life was not only tennis, tennis and tennis.
- [32:44]
B
Did you dance?
- [32:44]
E
I did. I went to Ibiza every single year with my friends. Yeah, me too. But I mean everyone needs to find their own space. I think it's some people needs more, some people needs less. But my life was much more than tennis. But I didn't want to project that to the world because I didn't found interesting for the world that I was going to Ibiza, I was going to do these or the other thing. No, I mean, he decided to make that public. I respect that and seems like it's working very well for him too.
- [33:23]
B
He does, he's doing unbelievably. But of course this is not a great year for him health wise. He's injured. What advice I know you're doing,
- [33:32]
E
you will have injuries. The professional athletes always will have issues. You know, some players have more like me, some players have less like Novak for example, or other.
- [33:45]
B
Is he superhuman physically?
- [33:49]
E
I mean, he had an amazing dedication to his, to the job and probably he had a privileged body to, to avoid important injuries. And that's why he had probably the best numbers in the history of our sport. And he's able to keep playing tennis at 39 years old. So I mean, that's part of our business. And the thing is, of course the tennis have a long calendar, nothing new. We had the same calendar since we started our tennis career. Something that the conversation always come back. But we already fighted to change a little bit that thing. Now for me the problem is not that super long calendar of 11 months. For me the problem is we had important tournaments during all those 11 months. So from my point of view, the tennis world will be a little bit better if we had during nine months important tournaments and then the other team two months good tournament. But you could, you could Play or don't play, it's your decision. So that will be, from my point of view, the ideal world. Because you know, you have different point of view if, if you have 11 months of tournaments, okay, of course you create more jobs because you have more people living from, from our sport. If you only have nine months, you have less jobs in our sport. So we make our sport bigger and we, we. One of the missions that we had when we were players is try to let more people living from our sport, not only the top players winning a lot of money, just trying to restrict, make the distribution a little bit better and a little bit more fair. And that's why for me, it's good to have, for me will not be a problem if you have almost 11 months and a half tournaments. The only problem is when you have too many important tournaments during all those periods of time. So you don't allow players to rest if they need rest for two months.
- [35:52]
B
Got it? We're in Spain, you're Spanish. Did you feel the weight and the burden of your nation's hopes and dreams on you? Or did it power you in a different way?
- [36:03]
E
For me, I always take that as a motivation and I always felt very well supported and loved and respected, especially of course here in Spain, but around the world. So for me, it was not an extra weight on my shoulders. No, for me, I enjoyed all that support, all that love, and I feel a very privileged person to be able to lift all of that.
- [36:30]
B
And finally, your wife was interviewed in this. We haven't really seen her being interviewed. Your father also, for the first time, we've never seen him being interviewed. I see a big smile on your face. Is family life phenomenal? Is it great? I mean, how do you feel now about being able to be a full time husband, father? What's next for Rafa Nadal?
- [36:49]
E
Well, I'm working more than what I expected, to be honest. But I am able to enjoy a lot my time with my family. Yeah, I mean, I think was great that during call those years, my father, my mother, they were not public. My girlfriend or wife, the same thing. Because for me personally and for them was great to come back home and have a really normal life, you know, not be exposed as a family show. Not just okay, I was a famous tennis player, but that stays on myself, not the other needs to pay that price. No. And of course the documentary, the personal documentary is normal that they talk. But yeah, I am enjoying my new life. I am working on all my projects, without a doubt. Academy, the foundation, the hotels, the NDL project. I mean a lot of things that are moving forward, but at the same time I am organizing my time to spend as much time time as I as I can with with my family and enjoying being, I mean, being father is one of the best things of my life that I experience difficult and tiring sometimes, but really amazing.
- [38:05]
B
Well, that's great. Rafael Nadal, thank you so much.
- [38:07]
E
Thank you. Thank you.
- [38:10]
B
And the extraordinary documentary series Rafa will drop on Netflix next week. May 29th. Coming up after the break, OpenAI reportedly moving toward a public offering with a possible $1 trillion valuation. But after Sam Altman's court win over Elon Musk, what is next for the future of AI? Now, it's been a big week for big tech. Fresh off CEO Sam Altman's legal victory against Elon Musk, news comes that Open Air reported reportedly is planning to go public very soon, as is Musk's Space X. Mike Isaac is a reporter for the New York Times and he shares analysis of the recent court battle with Musk with Harry Srinivasan.
- [39:03]
F
Christian, thanks. Mike Isaac, thanks so much for joining us again. Listen, you have covered tech for a long time. You've covered the rise of AI here. We've got this verdict from a jury within a couple of hours on Monday rejecting Elon Musk's $150 billion lawsuit against Sam Altman. For people who aren't in tech, why did this trial matter?
- [39:27]
G
It's funny, a lot of journalists and folks in the media were basically saying, what did we learn here afterwards? And we did kind of go back to the status quo. But I think it was one of these moments as AI is developing pretty rapidly, that because of two billionaires essentially entangled in a legal battle, were asking who should be the steward of developing this next generation intelligence, you know, and a lot of this trial was Elon Musk levying this lawsuit saying, you know, Sam Altman is not doing this for the right reasons. He we started this as an altruistic endeavor to build safe AI. And now as the company has, you know, dollar signs in their eyes, they want to build it as a profitable endeavor. And Sam Altman OpenAI CEO is saying Elon Musk is just building his own for profit competitor and he doesn't actually care about this either. But I really think it was one of these things where it reminds us that, oh, really, every big tech CEO in the valley right now is trying to build advanced artificial intelligence. And we kind of have to wonder who should if this stuff works, who should be the steward of that and who has like the proper intentions in place. And I'm not sure if we got an answer or a correct answer out of this trial, but at least it was a reminder, if that makes sense.
- [40:59]
F
Yeah. So where did that relationship go wrong? I mean, it seems like now it's just this grudge match that's playing out in courts and spending millions of dollars in legal fees and wasting jurors time.
- [41:12]
G
Yeah, wasting jurors time is a pretty good point. It was a month of taxpayer expensive. So around 2017 or 2018, Sam Altman and Greg Brockman, who was another co founder and the president of the company, now started talking and saying, look, there's been some advancements in AI technology. This is actually going to cost us a lot more than we thought to train what are called AI models, which are, you know, the sort of gear under the hood that powers these chatbots. And we thought it could be maybe millions or tens of millions and perhaps it's going to go into the billions even because of just how resource intensive these computers and what are called GPUs required to train these models. And so all of a sudden a nonprofit doesn't make as much sense to them. According to their version of this. Elon Musk says, hey, hey, hey, what are you doing? We got into this to not build what he called the Terminator future. We don't want to make a profit off of this. We want this to be a nonprofit. These guys start. Greg Brockman and Sam Altman start talking to Microsoft to take on more investment. And this is really the genesis of the diversions between them because of how this non profit should look, whether it's a for profit company or not. And I think that's when things start getting really from gnarly to outright acrimonious in just a couple of years.
- [42:46]
F
So Elon at the time says, okay, I'm going to run it or it's going to be in my possession or control. And the OpenAI folks are like, no, we'll pass. I mean, and then Elon builds his own basically competitor, but a for profit.
- [43:02]
E
Yeah.
- [43:02]
G
There was this other interesting moment during the trial where as you might imagine, Elon likes to be in control of things. He has a lot of his own companies. Tesla, SpaceX was PayPal at one point, the boring company. He has a bunch of different things going on now. Twitter, which is called X. And his as this was getting rougher between them, he was saying we should incubate OpenAI inside of Tesla. That was Another thing that came out in the trial, which people didn't, that's when they sort of split and said, no, we're going to do our own thing. And exactly what you said. A few years later, Elon decides, I've got SpaceX going on. I have Tesla, which has self driving technology which also relies on AI. I should just be building this myself. And ultimately he buys Twitter, turns it into X and then sort of attaches xai, which is his AI wing of the company and also something that is supposed to be a for profit company.
- [44:04]
F
Okay, so Musk took to X to point out to everybody and said, look, the judge and jury never actually ruled on the merits of the case, just on a calendar technicality. There's no question to anyone following the case, this is Musk's opinion in detail, that Altman and Brockman did in fact enrich themselves by stealing a charity. The only question is when they did it. I will be filing an appeal with the 9th Circuit because creating a precedent to loot charities is incredibly destructive to charitable giving in America. OpenAI was founded to benefit all of humanity. Now, could they win that appeal?
- [44:42]
G
I mean, yes, technically they could. There's a few things he did right after the trial, of course, immediately took to his social network and started giving his opinion. He also did a post calling the judge an activist judge and like really railing against her. And then I think his lawyers advised him to take it down because he deleted that tweet within the day. And that's probably, it's probably a smart idea. And we actually got outreach from his side saying, hey, can you note that he deleted the tweet? But I do think that. I know exactly it was not smart from him. But I think that I want to say his point about it being a technicality is a little too strong because, look, one of the big key points of the case was statute of limitations. And he left in 2018. He didn't file the suit until 2024. And there's a three year span of time in which you can file these suits. And he didn't do it there. So that's law, rather than just sort of a minor detail. That said, we didn't get to hear the jury rule on the merits of whether the other two counts of unjust enrichment and things that Elon Musk did also charge. And so, you know, I think it's fair to say, is there another way to hear whether he would win those or not? But I don't think that's really honestly the point at this Point, I think it benefits for him to keep this tied up in court as long as possible.
- [46:11]
F
So right before the trial, Elon Musk sent out this text to Greg Brockman, the co founder of OpenAI with Sam Altman. And he said, I'm going to make sure you and Sam Altman are the most hated men on earth. So if the goal is to just reputationally damage Sam Altman and OpenAI before this company goes public, is that a win for Elon Musk?
- [46:36]
G
That's a, I mean, it's a great point. And that was pretty unequivocal in how he put it. I believe that was in a direct message on X, because so much of what these guys do is on social media a lot of the time. Right? But yeah, that's, I think the greater goal in a lot of this. And really the outcome of the trial was just like dragging Altman and OpenAI through the mud. And I remember specifically Sam Altman's testimony just came out with this brutal series of character attacks and asking, can you trust this person? Can you trust Sam Altman? Can you trust this company? And entering that into the record, I think at a time in particular when I think a lot of people, everyday people, don't necessarily think AI is going to be positive for them or their jobs or their well being, that's a, that's damaging, you know, it's damaging to this company. And I think in a way, Elon Musk did kind of win in that regard.
- [47:37]
F
We've seen this incredible public opinion shift from holy cow, this is an amazing tool or technology. I can't believe this computer can do this right? Or software to wait. These guys have been bragging about how it's going to take away all our jobs and potentially kill us all. And oh, by the way, you're using all this power and water. I don't really want this in my neighborhood.
- [48:03]
G
Right.
- [48:03]
F
I mean, it's so quick that shift has happened and I wonder, does anybody win here?
- [48:11]
G
I completely agree and I think that it's interesting. I think all the CEOs right now, certainly at OpenAI, we've reported on internal discussions there. They bought a media company to try to change that narrative. Basically at Anthropic, which is another startup that competes with these companies, but also has quickly grown and they are probably the loudest voices on how profoundly potentially damaging or at least reshaping of society that AI could be. And then we have Google, which just had their big developer event called Google I O this week, trying to figure out how to Bring this as a positive message to the world. But I think all of these companies have figured out like, okay, we've been warning the alarm bells for too long at this point, and we need to the narrative of, okay, these are tools that can actually help you. These can have economic benefits rather than put you out of, out of work. Meanwhile, the biggest software companies in the world are cutting 10 to 20% of their ranks because they feel like they can replace those workers with AI. So it's a real mixed message. And to your point, trying to make this stuff sound good while at the same time showing hair, raising emails from the past and CEOs screaming at each other online at least, is a real. It's a very big contrast is what I'd say.
- [49:41]
F
Does any of this effect OpenAI, which is planning to go public, SpaceX, which is one of Elon's companies that owns XAI, that's going to go public, Do I think about that and say, should I be putting my money behind these companies that are primarily these big figureheads?
- [50:01]
G
I think that's another huge point of this trial and dragging certainly Sam through the muck, but both sides and, and you're exactly right in the sense that 2026, every, not every, many of the big AI companies are trying to get out the door and go public. And that's because they know there's a lot of investor and retail sentiment to get exposure to AI companies, which are basically propping up significant parts of the economy right now, huge investments in infrastructure. And so there's kind of a race between SpaceX, as you said, which is like this weird nesting doll of all of Elon's companies, OpenAI, as well as Anthropic, which also wants to go public this year. But I think that was one of the most damaging parts for OpenAI in this trial. One of the other things they recalled was how Altman was briefly fired by his own board of directors and had executives at the top of the company writing emails to each other saying, I can't trust this guy. And so you have, whether people believe that or not, you have these figureheads who retail investors might be like, all right, do I trust this guy who has been painted as basically the biggest liar in Silicon Valley with my money, or do I want to wait for Anthropic or go with Elon Musk?
- [51:29]
F
So it's really in that larger context that even something as small as this trial, which seems like, oh, this is kind of a petty beef between these two billionaires to, oh, this could have kind of knock on effects on how these companies go public, whether investors trust this. And as you point out, how much of the US Economy is currently propped up by what these companies are spending and planning to spend.
- [51:54]
G
Yeah, and like I think about that not to, you know, scaremonger, but I think about that in terms of 4:1ks. I think about that in terms of, you know, funds, you know. Right. Like the, and for a while now, the tech sector has been one of the largest growth factors in, you know, the S&P 500 and things that, that have kept the American economy very strong. But that is also the other way to look at it is like it's a huge risk factor in terms of, okay, if this doesn't work out, if the type of AI they claim to be building is not as, you know, revolutionary as they might say, then what is that? What does that look like? What does that mean for my retirement? Things like that, or if There are volatile CEOs running this stuff who maybe whose judgment we don't trust. Do I feel comfortable? And I don't know, I think I'm not to get too alarmist, but I think it's worth thinking about in terms of the companies that we, that we look to and the governance at the top of them.
- [52:59]
F
Mike Isaac of the New York Times, thanks so much for your time.
- [53:02]
G
Thanks, Hari. Thanks for having me.
- [53:06]
B
And finally, the artist JR has transformed Paris oldest bridge, which is the Pont Neuf, into what looks like a rocky mountain range rising out of the river Seine, using fabric and air to create this formation across the whole bridge.
- [53:20]
C
Bridge.
- [53:21]
B
It echoes Christo and Jean Claude's famously wrapping of that same bridge, the Pont Neuf, in 1985. JR says cities can be completely transformed and just as quickly return to normal. What remains are the memories. That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
- [53:46]
E
Eva.
- [53:47]
G
I'm Eva Longoria and I'm setting out to really experience France, to savor its world celebrated cuisine and explore the country's rich history. Eva Longoria Searching for France. Now streaming on the CNN app. Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry. There's so much bad information that the really good information gets drowned. The new CNN original series Kara Swisher wants to live Forever. Now streaming on the CNN app.