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- [00:04]
Paula Newton
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:09]
General Joseph Votel
We could call it a tremendous success right now as we leave here. I could call it. Or we could go further.
- [00:15]
Paula Newton
Mixed messages from the president as the war with Iran rages on. So what is Trump's end game, I ask retired four star general and former US Commander Joseph Votel. Then fighting for democracy in Venezuela, Trump may have removed the dictator Maduro, but is life any better under acting President Delsey Rodriguez? Human rights activist Lillian Tintore joins me.
- [00:42]
Senator Andy Kim
Plus, to see a major war like this come under without the support of the American people, without approval from Congress, this is really setting up our country for failure.
- [00:52]
Paula Newton
New Jersey Democratic Senator Andy Kim tells Hari Srinivasan how lawmakers can try to end Trump's new war in Iran. And a very warm welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York sitting in for Krishna amanpour. It's day 11 of the U. S. Israeli war with Iran and there is still no clear off ramp. President Trump claims it will be over very soon, perhaps in a bid to calm those surging oil prices. But he continues to make contradictory statements. Take a listen.
- [01:41]
General Joseph Votel
We've already won in many ways, but we haven't won enough as we're achieving major strides toward completing our military objective. And some people could say they're pretty well complete, I could call it. Or we could go further. And we're going to go further.
- [01:59]
Paula Newton
Now confusing matters more, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says the US Will not relent until, quote, the enemy is totally and decisively defeated. That's in contrast to Trump's mixed messages. Iran clear on its goals and says it is prepared for a long war. Although oil prices did in fact fall sharply on Tuesday, they remain incredibly volatile. The world's top oil exporter in Saudi Arabia is warning of catastrophic consequences if shipping doesn't return to normal soon. Meantime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says we are not done yet in Iran. With Israel launching a broad wave of strikes on Tehran overnight, CNN correspondent Fred Plaikin has seen firsthand the human impact of this war that's on the ground in Tehran. Here's his latest report. Amid ongoing strikes and a not Fred and his team operate in the country with the permission of the Iranian government as required under local regulations, but maintains full editorial control over what is reported.
- [03:07]
Senator Andy Kim
There's been heavy bombardment in Tehran over the past 24 hours as we both heard and felt this morning. We visited a site when all of a sudden it was targeted again. Yeah, we should go. We go, we go.
- [03:20]
General Joseph Votel
Okay. We're hearing jets overhead, there's anti aircraft cars going up.
- [03:24]
Senator Andy Kim
They told us we gotta get out
- [03:25]
General Joseph Votel
of here as fast as.
- [03:27]
Senator Andy Kim
So that just goes to show how fast things can turn bad here.
- [03:31]
General Joseph Votel
We were filming at a site as
- [03:36]
Senator Andy Kim
apparently rid of this mask struck yesterday. Earlier we'd spoken to folks caught in the attack.
- [03:47]
Paula Newton
I was in the basement and was
- [03:49]
Jeremy Dimon
thrown against the opposite wall.
- [03:51]
General Joseph Votel
I was under the rubble. That's it.
- [03:54]
Hari Srinivasan
I don't know what else to say.
- [04:00]
Paula Newton
I'm sorry. A reminder there of the pronounced grief on the ground in Tehran and of course, those dangers that are faced by ordinary Iranians even at this hour. We want to thank our Fred Plaikin for his reporting there. So what is President Trump's endgame and strategy in this war? General Joseph Vattel is a retired four star general who was commander of United States Central Command and he joins us now from Minnesota. General, I really want to welcome you to the program.
- [04:38]
General Joseph Votel
Thank you. Good to be with you.
- [04:40]
Paula Newton
Now, as we just heard, President Trump has given, you know, very different signals on the south span in a short span of hours here. He says that on one hand it's pretty much complete, then the US will, he says, go further until the enemy is totally defeated. You know, I want to ask you from a military planning perspective, and I do want to point out you served as US commander of US Central Command for three years between 2016 and 2019. You would have been in the room, you would have been the commander on this mission. And how confusing is this kind of messaging for commanders and for allies trying to understand this mission?
- [05:21]
General Joseph Votel
Yeah, thanks. It's great to be with you. So certainly I won't try to interpret everything the President is saying. He has a very unique way of communicating. But I think as I watched the Pentagon press briefing again this morning, at least the Secretary of Defense and talking about this with the chairman, the military objectives I think stay pretty, pretty clear. So, you know, very much focused on taking away the war making capability of Iran, of the regime to, you know, project that military power that they have beyond their, beyond their borders. And so I think the military, you know, is very much directly focused on that. I think what we might be seeing over time here, and I know there's been some strategic ambiguity in terms of our broader strategic. But I think what we might be seeing is that they're actually the tactical objectives may be very, very close to the strategic objectives and that is really focused on removing the military capability of the regime.
- [06:26]
Paula Newton
And let's get to some of those strategic imperatives here. Trump has said yesterday, he said this about Iran's military capabilities.
- [06:34]
General Joseph Votel
Listen, they have no navy, they have no air force, they have no anti aircraft equipment. It's all been blown up. They have no radar, they have no telecommunications and they have no leadership. It's all gone.
- [06:52]
Paula Newton
So given again that you up until 2019 saw the intelligence, you knew the capability firsthand in Iran, I wonder what you make of the threat now, especially as we continue to see drones and missiles being fired. And I want to ask you directly about the Revolutionary Guard because some indicate that actually the Revolutionary Guard has continued to really up its game and has been ready for this for quite some time.
- [07:19]
General Joseph Votel
Well, yeah, there's no doubt that the military campaign has taken a heavy toll on the Iranian regime's military capabilities. Whether it's the navy, whether it's their missile defenses, some of their drones. You know, it's certainly their command and control and I think we've significantly disrupted that. And, but, but there are remnants, there are remnants of capabilities. And so while while Iran's a lot of its equipment is gone, it still does possess some sort of a kill chain here that allows them to launch missiles. And, and as we've seen in the last few days, the drones that will continue to, to lash out now those numbers of those are down, but nonetheless they're very, very serious. Only one of those needs to be successful to cause casualties or cause a lot of damage. So I think what you see is the military really, really focusing in on trying to go after those means of retaliation that the regime still maintains with regard to the irgc, the Iranian Republican Guard Corps. Yeah, clearly they are the strength behind the regime, there's no doubt about that. They've been very closely aligned with the theocratic leadership here for, for decades. And so they represent the, you know, kind of the professional military, so to speak, response that comes to this. They are die hard. They are committed to the, to the cause and they are going to fight for them. I think it's important to appreciate for them and for the regime this is existential for them. So they are going to fight hard even after the severe strikes that they've absorbed over the last 11 days.
- [09:06]
Jeremy Dimon
Yeah.
- [09:06]
Paula Newton
And clearly some adversity ahead then, and especially when it comes, of course, to the Strait of Hormuz. You know, President Trump has vowed to launch, in his words, fire and fury against Iran if it seeks to block even one tanker. But Ali Lanjani in the security and is one of the Council of Three leading In Iran right now, you posted on X that the Strait of Hormuz will either be a strait of peace and prosperity for all or will be a strait of defeat and suffering for warmongers. You know, you again at the table. What is your understanding of what the Trump administration can do to mitigate the dangers in the Strait of Hormuz and actually get tankers moving again?
- [09:52]
General Joseph Votel
Yeah, well, having, having had the opportunity to sail through the Strait of Hormuz on board some of our U.S. navy vessels, I have a good appreciation for just how narrow this is, how dangerous it is, the advantages to the attacker, meaning Iran. It is, it's a very difficult transit route for, for ships to make. It's not easy. They are not moving at speed. They have to slow down. They have to pay attention to a very specific route that they take through the straits or moves, and those all portend vulnerabilities for any forces moving through this. So, you know what, in order to keep this open, what I would be advising is to make sure that we have addressed all the potential threats along the, along the shoreline. Of course, we have to make sure that Iran's, you know, very large number of, of sea mines has not been deployed in this area. We'd have to use, use not only our own minesweepers, but perhaps undersea surveillance vessels to help us, you know, surveil that and understand what's out there. And then, of course, we got it. We have to be able to escort these, these ships through. This is a big operation and, and it will take a lot of resources to, to make sure that thing stays open so we can get these tankers through here. And at the same time we're doing that, we're also, you know, continuing to launch strikes here. So this will become a choice for our military leaders at some particular point. And the priorities that the administration has will help drive those things that we do on the ground.
- [11:25]
Paula Newton
That's interesting that you say it's a choice, especially in terms of resources. So do you think there's a choice here between trying to de escalate right now and trying to actually open the economy, that you can't prosecute the war in this way and also keep the strait open?
- [11:40]
General Joseph Votel
I think there's a choice between continuing to hit Iran hard, going after the retaliatory means and really, really destroying that, taking it down as far as we can, and dedicating maritime and air resources to creating a situation where we can begin to move tankers through the Straits of Hormuz. Those aren't, you Know, exclusive of each other. And, but, you know, they both are resource intensive. They're both very high priorities for us. And so there has to be some decision in terms of what takes precedence over the other.
- [12:18]
Paula Newton
Yeah, we are getting an idea from you on the scope of the challenge here. I do want to go to the civilian toll here on many around the world, especially on that attack on the school in Iran. Now, video analysis now suggests that a US Tomahawk missile struck a military base near a school in Manab. Now, that's where Iranian authorities say 160 children were killed. You know, there is reporting that that might have been due to dated intelligence the school was separated from the site in 2016. I point out you were the commander of CENTCOM at that time. You know, I do also want to point out though that you released the results of a similar incident in Kunduz, Afghanistan in 2015. At least 170 people there were killed or injured. That was when a Medecine Sans Frontiere trauma center was mistakenly targeted. And I'm quoting you here now you say at the outset, when that investigation concluded that we are committed to learning from the mistakes that were made and will work hard to train and put systems in place that reduce the risk of such an incident occurring again in the future. I mean, the Iranian incident here is just so tragically similar. What does this say to you, especially as we have seen such equivocation from both the Defense Secretary and the President himself. They're saying it's being investigated, but not much more.
- [13:39]
General Joseph Votel
Yeah, well, certainly, I mean, these are tragic events and no commander wants this to happen under the, under their watch or during the conduct of military operations. And we always try to take, you know, extraordinary measures to try to prevent this from, from occurring. In my situation in Afghanistan, based on my experience, our, our, our inability to sometimes get the civilian casualty challenge under, under control actually was impacting the mission that we were, that we were giving there. So it became a, became a very, very high imperative on this. There are a lot of challenges with the investigation into this. You know, it, it is, they are, they are hard things to investigate, but they are even more so, even harder when you don't have access to the site. You don't have reliable sources on the ground that you can count on to get details. And then, of course, you have ongoing combat operations. So, you know, I think what's imperative here is to get to the, get to the bottom of this and if there was a mistake made, to acknowledge that and, and, and commit to, you Know, preventing that from moving forward. That was certainly what we were trying to do with the situation of Kundu. It was a horrible situation. These, these things unfortunately happen. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a really bad effect of, of combat operations here. We, we try to prevent. But you know, when it does occur, in my estimation, it's always best to try to do an investigation, try to be very clear with people and try to get the results out there and then try to learn from that so you don't, you don't repeat it. And that's, that's, I mean, that's kind of how I looked at it.
- [15:20]
Paula Newton
President Barack Obama, in fact, at the time, apologized inside of a week. We've not heard any of that. Do you think the, there would be available information right now for the US Military to be able to tell the administration, look, this was likely a grave mistake?
- [15:35]
General Joseph Votel
Yeah, I don't, I don't know what information is being passed back and forth, but certainly I think a recognition that there's a, that there's a mistake has been made. I think can, goes a long way to, to, to, to moving this, to moving this forward. I'm not saying we should forget about, we certainly have to understand exactly what happened here. But you know, we need, we need, we need to acknowledge if this was in fact called, caused by the United States, then we should acknowledge that and we should do the best to understand what happened and try to prevent it.
- [16:06]
Paula Newton
General Otel, you know, we get to the heart of the matter here when we discuss U.S. intelligence that now says Iran could potentially retrieve highly enriched uranium steel that is buried at the Sfence nuclear site. That's even after all these strikes. Now, if securing that uranium required a special forces raid in, inside Iran, how risky would that operation be and what would be the chances for success in your estimation?
- [16:32]
General Joseph Votel
Well, an operation like that certainly would be very high risk, just like, you know, we were talking about with the straits and hormones. These are all significant operations to put a, to put a force on the ground, even a relatively small, you know, defined special operations force, you know, takes a lot of work. This isn't just on the coast. We have to penetrate into Iran. We have to control the area. We have to be able to get the force on the ground. We have to be able to provide them the equipment they need, and we need to be able to do that for some period of time. Going in and doing a mission like this isn't something that will likely be done in a period of Darkness. It would likely take, you know, several days or maybe longer to go in and do this. So it for. First thing I think to appreciate is this is a, this is a significant, this is a significant operation that has to be undertaken. You know, U.S. special Operations forces have a whole variety of unique capabilities. I won't get into all the details, but, you know, we, they are prepared to do missions of this, of this nature, but again, it's significant. So it would involve more than just us Special operators on ground. We have to. Our air force is having to maintain air superiority over this. We'd have to have some kind of logistical tail. We'd likely need some specialty forces like explosive ordinance disposal elements. We'd probably have to have a security force on the ground that was external to the Special Operations Force that was really focused on recovering the material. And then we've got to get all that out of there. And we're talking about, you know, a thousand pounds of hazardous nuclear material that, you know, that has to be transported in a way that doesn't create a bigger problem and gets it back to some place. So I think the picture I'm trying to paint for you, these aren't. Things aren't impossible, they're difficult, but they take a lot of planning. They'll take a lot of resources. It's not something we can, we can just do.
- [18:27]
Paula Newton
So you've given us a very detailed picture. In fact, does that mean that by necessity, this conflict may, must go on at least for a few more weeks, if not months, if they want to get to that uranium?
- [18:37]
General Joseph Votel
Well, again, I think this, this goes back to what the specific objectives that the, that the, that the administration has for, you know, for kind of an end state here. You know, I'm certain that our very excellent intelligence community is, is working over time to do analysis and understand exactly the damage and how far the program has been set back or destroyed. So we can have some confidence in that. You know, and again, unfortunately, we don't have people on the ground. So without that, you really can't have the level of certainty I think that we're, that we're looking for. So, you know, whether this continues on or whether we try to work through some type of international organization or we try to, you know, communicate to the remnants of the regime that we want to come in and do this, I mean, I think there are some options that can be considered here. But, you know, in terms of extending that, I think that really is a decision for the administration as they, as they identify their objectives.
- [19:34]
Senator Andy Kim
Right.
- [19:35]
Paula Newton
But I know you are talking about an extension there. The US Navy torpedoed an Iranian warship off the coast of Sri Lanka. You know, dozens were killed and injured. It did happen in international waters, you know, Secretary Hegseth called that a quiet death, but I want you to listen now to, to more of his kind of war rhetoric, I would call it. Listen.
- [19:54]
Jeremy Dimon
Death and destruction from the sky all day long. We're playing for keeps. Our war fighters have maximum authorities granted personally by the president and yours truly. Our rules of engagement are bold, precise, and designed to unleash American power, not shackle it. This was never meant to be a fair fight, and it is not a fair fight. We are punching them while they're down, which is exactly how it should be.
- [20:28]
Paula Newton
Death and destruction all day long from the sky. General, are you comfortable with that kind of language in terms of the way you conducted yourself in your military career?
- [20:39]
General Joseph Votel
Well, I won't try to. I try to. Secretary's words speak for themselves. I don't mean to interpret that or try to explain it. I think what you know, as a senior military commander, my responsibility was to accomplish the missions that were given to me by the Secretary of Defense and the, and the president, and do that in a way that reflected our values, reflected our adherence to the law of armed conflict. And of course, we're all conducted in, in accordance with the, with the rules of engagement. War combat is a very difficult situation. It's never going to be clean, and it requires hard decisions and hard work on behalf of all of our men and women that are doing it for us. I think what I try to do, what I tried to do when I was in a position of leadership was basically try to hold true to the values that we have as military professionals and certainly as Americans, and conduct ourselves in a way that is proud. The country would be proud of how we did it.
- [21:40]
Paula Newton
General Joseph Votel, certainly we've learned a lot in the last few minutes. I want to thank you for your insights.
- [21:46]
General Joseph Votel
Thank you very much.
- [21:49]
Paula Newton
Now, meantime, Israel is fighting a war on two fronts, as well as continued strikes into Iran, The IDF is carrying out what it calls targeted raids into southern Lebanon. So when Israel needs the support of the United States most, how are President Trump's mixed messages going down in Israel? Jeremy Dimon joins us, of course, from Tel Aviv. Jeremy, I don't have to remind you, right? 11 days into this war, Iran is still able to fire barrages of missiles and drones. What's the latest from there on the ground?
- [22:20]
Jeremy Dimon
Yeah, that's right. We are continuing to See air raid sirens and barrages of ballistic missiles being fired at Israel, although Israeli military officials tell us that those barrages are much smaller in size, sometimes just a single missile being fired by Iran. What they are telling us, though, is that about half now of the ballistic missiles being fired at Israel are armed with what's known as cluster munitions. Meaning instead of it being a single warhead that could carry some 500km kilos to a ton of explosive material, you're instead seeing missiles with some 24 smaller bombs, each of them having about 5 kg or 11 pounds of explosive material, maximum. But a much larger challenge for Israel's air defenses and still having the power to not only disrupt daily life, but to cause destruction and also casualties here on the ground. In fact, we've now seen two people who've been killed as a result of those smaller bomblets, part of the larger cluster munition here, being used by the Iranians, and so clearly still a present danger. But again, Israeli and US Officials say that they've had significant success in not only destroying Iran's ballistic missiles in its storage facilities, but also striking more than half of their launchers and disabling them, preventing Iran from launching those much larger barrages.
- [23:50]
Paula Newton
Yeah, as we just heard from the general, though, Jeremy, even one can be dangerous in terms of capability inside Iran. Trump has said that ending the war would be a mutual decision with Netanyahu. I mean, how is that playing politically inside of Israel? You know, you just highlighted just some of the terrorists going on there, not to mention, you know, the conflict as well spreading to Lebanon. How is all of this going down there?
- [24:17]
Jeremy Dimon
Well, certainly Israeli officials want to continue to prosecute this war and to do so for as long as it takes to achieve their ultimate goal of regime change in Iran, which, as of now, you know, we haven't seen any evidence on the ground that the conditions are ripe for that regime change change to take place. Instead, what we've seen is one Khomeini being replaced with another Khomeini, and so far, no signs of mass protests in the streets of Iran as a result of what Israel and the United States are doing, which is not only going after Iran's military capabilities, targeting its senior political leaders, but also trying to kind of weaken the structures of the regime, including its internal security forces, to allow for such a popular uprising to take place. You know, Israeli officials have been closely watching the mixed messaging coming out of President Trump's mouth in recent days as to whether or not this war is ending or if it's just beginning, depending on the time of day or the official from the Trump administration who's speaking. When they heard President Trump at that press conference last night, I think it certainly gave them the confidence that the president isn't abandoning this military campaign just yet. But also, you know that he's clearly watching everything that from the oil prices to the impact on regional stability, the politics of all of this back in the United States. And certainly there's an understanding that time could be limited for the United States to continue participating in this. And Israeli officials feel like there's still work to do on the ground. In Iran, officials continuously talk to us about more quote, unquote surprises ahead as we understand that the United States is also considering the possibility of putting special forces on the ground to carry out operations in Iran.
- [25:59]
Paula Newton
And we just heard again from General Votel how difficult that would be. Jeremy Dimon, grateful for the update. Coming up for us, two months after the US Capture of Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro, I asked human rights activist Lilian Tintore about how the country's reforms are progressing. That's next. Hey, everyone, it's Audie. And I've got another special episode of the Assignment for you. I was at the podcast festival known as On Air Fest that was in Brooklyn just last week. And for this I knew I wanted to bring along a friend because we're going to talk about work, spouses, and mine for a very long time was Ari Shapiro of npr. You heard us on the radio being very serious. And during the eight minute segment when
- [26:48]
Jeremy Dimon
our mics are off, we would cackle
- [26:50]
Paula Newton
about the latest thing that we had
- [26:51]
General Joseph Votel
found on Reddit or on Instagram or
- [26:54]
Jeremy Dimon
whatever was bubbling up in the culture. And we never really got to laugh
- [26:58]
General Joseph Votel
like that with each other and finish each other's sentences on the radio in quite that way.
- [27:03]
Paula Newton
No. Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.
- [27:11]
Jeremy Dimon
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper.
- [27:12]
Senator Andy Kim
On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are living with life altering losses. Gavin Newsom is the governor of California. He's written a book about his life called Young man in a A Memoir of Discovery.
- [27:31]
General Joseph Votel
There's this thing, just this notion of this letting go and just accepting things I can't control, just accepting them, things
- [27:40]
Senator Andy Kim
I can taking account and responsibility to
- [27:42]
General Joseph Votel
be better and more. Do you feel grief? I feel loss. I feel regret. I feel inadequate.
- [27:50]
Senator Andy Kim
I guess human talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:08]
General Joseph Votel
Now.
- [28:08]
Paula Newton
President Trump often touts the US Operation in Venezuela as the, quote, perfect example of how regime change can play out. Two months after the US Capture and removal of Nicolas Maduro with acting President Del Cide Rodriguez at the helm. Now the government is pushing major reforms on the country's military mining industry, reforms pushed by the Trump administration anxious to control Venezuela's oil. Meantime, those fighting for democracy inside the country continue to face repressive tactics from this regime. Our next guest is a longtime human rights and democracy activist and the wife of opposition politician Leopoldo Lopez. Lilian Tintore now joins us from New York. Thank you for being with us. We really appreciate it as we continue to try and pull exactly what's going on on the ground in Venezuela. You know, you claim that over the past several months your family has been, your family home, in fact, has been systematically destroyed by Sabine. Now they are Venezuela's internal security force. Can you describe for us what they've done to your home? And crucially here, what do you believe that tells you about how this regime is doing and what their motives are in all of this?
- [29:21]
Lilian Tintore
Thank you, Paula. It's so difficult. I couldn't believe this when I saw that videos of my home. I started shaking my body and crying and I need to talk with my kids, with my three kids and with Leopoldo. You know, Leopoldo Lopez is my husband. He's a powerful leader. He's a democratic leader, leader from Venezuela. But maybe for Leopoldo, it's difficult, you know, like share emotions. But I'm here to tell the truth. I'm here to denounce this regime. Look, my home inside, they destroy our remembers, our memories, our, you know, their insiders. The rooms of my kids are perfectly there waiting for us. Our dogs, two Labradors, dogs. The names is Caracas and Coleo. Our three birds, our animals, they are inside. They took everything. They stole everything, our personal things, things that maybe never gonna be the same because it's not the things. It's not a house. It's our memories. It's our life. My three kids born in this house in Caracas, Venezuela, in Los Palo Grandes. And my three kids learn how to speak, how to walk in that home. Here with me is Federica, my small little daughter that supported me because I need to talk with my family. You know, it's not only my situation, it's our family situation. But many Venezuelan people are in fear and they can't Speak. But today I am the voice of millions of Venezuela. But because they took many houses, many homes in Venezuela, we suffered a lot in the last 25 years. We have been in a dictatorship. They persecute us, they attack us. And I want to say that I'm here because I fight for our rights. I'm still fighting for our country.
- [31:26]
Paula Newton
I do want to point out that we have reached out to the Venezuelan government. We have not received a response from them. And Liliana, you of course, just spoke of those memories that you have of the children and that is your home that you're still not able to return to. Do you have any expectation about when or how you will return in safety to Venezuela and to your home?
- [31:50]
Lilian Tintore
Of course we have dreams. We are 10 million Venezuelan people outside Venezuela because we don't have choice. I need to escape by the sea with my little girl in my arms. And many Venezuelan people are around the world. And we have the dream. And you know, I have a message for Delsey Rodriguez and for too, you know, you cannot break us forever. You know, our dream is bigger than our fear. And we want a free Venezuelan and we want all the political prisoners with their families. I'm in touch with all the families in Venezuela. Still more than 500 political prisoners in jail. They tortured them, they killed people in the streets. In the last years, they brought many Venezuelan families and we cannot forget.
- [33:00]
Paula Newton
Lillian, have you gotten any response from the government whatsoever about what happened to your home?
- [33:06]
Lilian Tintore
Nothing. They only said that it's an order of President Del C Rodriguez. The worker said that I'm here because this is a house of Delsey Rodriguez. And we are doing this because Delsey Rodriguez gave us the order. It's my home. It's in my name. It's the only property that I have in my life. That is the only home, the only house that I have. But you know, it's not ait's not the house, it's the memories. It's our life in Caracas. Look, look. That's my house today. Look. They destroyed everything inside. And they put like a big wall, like a gel, so many people can see inside. But you know, the regime, the Seville, the policemen inside, they record videos and send that to me and to Leopoldo. And we are. I can say it's too hard,
- [34:10]
Paula Newton
Liliana. Obviously you believe this is a form of intimidation in your family and a warning not to return. You specifically spell out that you are blaming Delsey Rodriguez. I want you to listen now to President Trump speaking about his relationship with the acting president There, Listen, I like
- [34:28]
General Joseph Votel
the idea of internal because it works well. I mean, I think we've proven that so far in Venezuela. We have a woman, Delsey, who has been, you know, president of the country, very respected, very. She's doing a great job. And it's, you know, no disruption.
- [34:48]
Paula Newton
If you listen to him, Lilian, it seems as if Delsio Rodriguez has carte blanche from the White House to run the government as she sees fit. I mean, and where does that leave you? Where does that leave the opposition movement?
- [35:00]
Lilian Tintore
I can say that Marco Rullo have all the information. Marco Rubio knows a lot about our country. A lot. Not now, in the last 20 years. So I believe that they know who they are. That's who they are. They destroyed the country and they right now destroyed my home. And it's not onlyi need to repeat this. It's not only my case. There are many cases inside my country. In the last week I received a lot of calls of many families telling me, Lilian, the same for us. They took our apartment, they took our home, they took our families property. So we are going to denounce. And Marco Rubios knows this a lot. Marco Rubios knows that Diosdal Cabello is a criminal.
- [35:57]
Paula Newton
But Diosdo Cabello, of course, is the Interior Ministry. And he is at the side, the way he was at the side of Nicolas Maduro. He is now at the side of Delsey Rodriguez. But Lilian, I have to ask you. Maria Corina Machado, an opposition leader, is still not back in the country. I'm not sure if you know when she will be in the country, but given the fact that Delsey Rodriguez still has the full support, it seems, of Donald Trump, where does your opposition movement go from here? Especially because Rodriguez continues to point to the fact that hundreds of political prisoners under that amnesty law have been released.
- [36:30]
Lilian Tintore
We are the voice of many Venezuelan people. Maria Corina Machao is the leader right now. A woman full of courage. And I believe that we are going to return home as Maria Corina always said. I support Maria Corina. He's one of my friends, he's one of the politicians that I'd said is always fighting, always straight and always saying the truth. And we support that. We go to return to Venezuela and we want a very clear thing. My Canadians sat. We want free and fair elections because right now they still have political prisoners in jail. They released once, but there is still more than 500 and the regime's still there. So we want a change and we want to decide our future with free elections.
- [37:31]
Paula Newton
Lilian Tintore, we continue, of course, to follow developments in Venezuela. And we really want to thank you for speaking to us as the Trump administration, as we say, continues to hold this up as a model, perhaps not just for Venezuela, but even in places like Iran. Lilian Tintore, thanks so much.
- [37:45]
Lilian Tintore
Thank you, Paula.
- [37:48]
Paula Newton
Now, still coming up for us, how are American voters feeling about Trump's war in Iran and its potential consequences? Democratic U.S. senator Andy Kim tells Hari Srinivasan that after the break.
- [38:05]
Senator Andy Kim
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. What if caregiving doesn't just take from us, but what if it gives something back as well? Multitasking is the worst thing you could do as a caregiver because the presence is the currency. That's all you can really give. You cannot control outcomes. At the end of the day, the presence. And if you're multitasking, it's going to muddy up the whole thing. We also don't consider care as productive in our country. Her book is called when youn Care the Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others. Journalist Alyssa Strauss, the Magic of Caring for Others. Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now, wherever you get your podcast.
- [38:55]
Paula Newton
As we discussed earlier, it's unclear how long President Trump's war in Iran will go on or what the real objective is. Our next guest argues that the continued strikes are unconstitutional and the conflict could have, quote, disastrous consequences for the American people. Democratic Senator Andy Kim tells Hari Srinivasan how voters are feeling about the US Involvement in Iran and why he and his fellow lawmakers are poor pushing to end it.
- [39:23]
Hari Srinivasan
Paula, thanks. Senator Andy Kim, thanks so much for joining us again. You recently wrote an op ed that was titled How My Fellow Lawmakers and I Can Try to End Trump's New War in Iran. In it, you said Congress must step in immediately to stop the military action,
- [39:38]
Senator Andy Kim
explain because the American people, their voice is not being heard right now. And that needs to be at the forefront of this. That's what the Constitution was trying to protect, that we are sending our servicemen and women into harm's way for something that is so clearly a war. Even the president calls this a war. That that is something that needs to be done with the American people's approval. And this was not. And this is something that I think is very dangerous as someone who worked in both Afghanistan and Iraq, to see a major war like this come under without the support of the American people, without approval from Congress, this is really setting up our country for failure.
- [40:17]
Hari Srinivasan
You know, the president has offered several different explanations or reasons for engaging Iran right now. He said we're going to destroy their missiles and raise their missile industry to the ground. A couple of days later he said it was my opinion they were going to attack first. They were going to attack if we didn't do it. He also said that we needed to topple the regime because it posed an existential threat to America. And again, let's say for example, our audience is hearing these different messages. You're a senator, you have better access. Is there a better briefing, a clearer explanation that the President of the United States is providing to you?
- [40:57]
Senator Andy Kim
No, no, no. This is very clearly the President deciding that he wanted a war with Iran and his administration and he himself tried to figure out how to justify that. Reverse engineer an explanation for this. In some ways this feels like the 2003 Iraq War in fast forward. It feels like this is what we saw in years of that war. And just how we saw the shifting of the goals when we saw the mission creep, we're seeing that all within the first eight days of this war because this administration has no clear objectives. We don't see what the end is, where we can see us pulling out of this. And that open endedness is what again makes this different than for, certainly different from Venezuela, which also was done by this president. But vastly different scale of what we're encountering right now. We're talking about the eighth largest military in the world, a country the size of California, Texas and New York State combined. It is a very significant adversary here.
- [42:08]
Hari Srinivasan
Before you were Senator, you worked in the National Security Council at the Pentagon, at the State Department. You know, I wonder, to counter Iranian terror groups. You more than other senators know the power and strength of the irgc. And as you just rattled off so many different reasons. Is the President correct in saying they are a threat to the United States and that they need to be eradicated?
- [42:37]
Senator Andy Kim
They are certainly a state sponsor of terrorists and so is North Korea. That doesn't mean that I support the United States going in, especially without congressional approval and then taking out leadership in North Korea. Yes, they're pointing nuclear weapons at my family in South Korea, but that doesn't mean that that is what the United States can and needs to be doing at this moment. You know, I was at the Munich Security Conference a couple weeks ago. You know, I see what's happening right now when it comes to Iran, like America. I've never seen America so isolated and alone as we are now. You know, we have really abdicated our global leadership role because the leadership isn't just about military might.
- [43:20]
Hari Srinivasan
Sure.
- [43:21]
Senator Andy Kim
Our military is, is, is incomparable to anyone else. And we have the by far the best military. We see the power we can do it doesn't mean we always use it. It is a tool and often a tool of last resort. But this president refuses to abide by this. You know, you're right. I have spent years studying the Iranian regime, understanding the terror that they wrought, the Shia militia groups that they have networked throughout the Middle east and the world. And that knowledge gives me even greater concerns about where this war could head. That sure, the Americans could at some point, Trump administration could at some point say, landing the bombs and the missiles, but this new Iranian regime with a new leader just put in place, after watching his father and his, his wife and a kid killed by the United States, you think he's going to go easy and he needs to prove himself to this country. 90 million people he's going to try to keep under his control. You think he's going to be somebody that just turns over on the Americans? This is something that very much opens the doors for a very long and protracted war. In the same way, if you were to calculate how did Iranian forces and terror groups kill Americans the most, it wasn't through ballistic missiles. It was through these IEDs, through other types of improvised terror operations and kidnappings that they've done over the years. So they have many tools at their disposal that we're going to be vulnerable to. And I worry about unleashing that upon the American people.
- [44:59]
Hari Srinivasan
Senator, in your time at the National Security Council and at the Pentagon and at the State Department, is there the equivalent of, I don't know, a three ring binder, so to speak, that says here are three or four plans on how to deal with Iran. And did the administration follow any of those plans?
- [45:18]
Senator Andy Kim
I can tell, like for instance, what I was pointing out about the lack of coordination with the State Department, the fact that Americans abroad were not told to depart prior to the combat beginning in the 2003 Iraq war. Say what you will about it, I didn't agree with it. But the Bush administration did push forward, telling Americans to get out of the region before combat was undertaken. They set up all sorts of efforts to try to connect in with Americans. The fact that Trump did none of that, in fact, the first message of any consequence to people in the region, Americans in The region happened 72 hours after the first bombs were dropped. So three days of silence and it said, depart now. Well, how, when many of these countries had closed their Airspace. The fact that you see that, that shows you that they weren't actually following the plans. We have other efforts in place, for instance, on understanding the cybersecurity threats that we could face here at home, especially with an adversary like Iran that has proven cyber capabilities. The fact that this administration pushed forward on this war without cisa, our cybersecurity lead in the Department of Homeland Security, at full strength, the fact that they had gutted cisa, cut a huge swath of their staff, about a third of their staff, earlier last year, it shows that they are not thinking about all the different things that one needs to consider when taking on a war of
- [46:51]
Hari Srinivasan
this magnitude regarding Americans getting out of the region. The White House press secretary at a press conference recently, she said the State Department will identify where you are and provide travel options directly to you. The administration is already rapidly chartering flights free of charge and booking commercial options, which we expect to become increasingly available as time goes on and the success of this mission further comes to fruition. What's your response to that? Do you have constituents from your Jersey who are stuck there calling you?
- [47:21]
Senator Andy Kim
Yeah, they're stuck there. Many are trying to get their own way out because they're just not getting responses. I mean, look, I did Press Secretary Rubio about this in the briefing last week, and they have since been taking some actions. But where was this planning ahead of time? And that's what I think is so concerning, just the risk that they put Americans into. And just it was clear that it was an afterthought, like they didn't even think about it. The White House spokesperson you just said, if that was all true, why wasn't that said on day one of this war? Instead, on day three, they said, depart now. You cannot count on the State Department to help you. Then several days later, they said, oh, here is what we're trying to do now. So it was just a constantly evolving situation where you can see, again, they're just making this up as they go along. They did not have any day one plan for Americans.
- [48:18]
Hari Srinivasan
You've mentioned that our place in the world is changing rapidly because of these actions. Spain, for example, has refused to allow the US to use military bases for strikes against Iran. And the president, in response, has threatened a trade embargo against Spain. And how is this straining the relationship we have with our allies?
- [48:42]
Senator Andy Kim
Well, first I'll just say and point out that the people that are happiest about the United States at war in Iran are Vladimir Putin and Xi and President Xi in China. Our adversaries are just joyous right now. This is exactly what they want. They want the United States bogged down in a war in the Middle east that is taking away resources that we could be giving to the fight in Ukraine or to allies and partners in the Indo Pacific region as they're worried about what Trump might say to President Xi in China next month and whether or not this war, the fact that the United States has just taken this illegal, unconstitutional war in Iran now gives Russia and China greater credence to say that they can do whatever they want. How can we criticize Putin going into Ukraine? How can we criticize Xi if he were to push Chinese forces into Taiwan or elsewhere when we have just taken this type of action? Number two is, again, we are doing this alone. And that is something like I never imagined that I'd be thinking that the 2003 Iraq war coalition, the willing, would be seen as a great example of multilateralism compared to what we're seeing right now in 2026. What's our cred like, you know, that we're bringing them all into, even the Middle east partners that we have. I've been on the phone talking non stop with leaders throughout the Middle east that just feel completely blindsided by, you know, these approaches and are now considering, you know, the United States as just a force of chaos now and just continuingly hedging against us. I even heard one leader of allied nation say that they are now considering in their meetings the United States as a national security threat. They see us as a threat to their own interests now, which is just so sad and scary to see. As someone who worked on a NATO military base in Afghanistan, the idea that we are now a threat to some of our allies is something that we should all be ashamed at. And this didn't have to be the case.
- [51:00]
Hari Srinivasan
Iran has just named Ayatollah Khamenei's son, Machaba, as its new supreme leader. And during an interview with ABC News, the President of the United States said, if he doesn't get approval from us, he's not going to last long. What does this tell you about the regime's stability, our diplomacy, our ability to influence what happens there? Yeah.
- [51:25]
Senator Andy Kim
Yeah. Well, again, that's another example of where this is not just about retaliation or imminent threat. You know, this was always about regime change for this president, as much as some of his cabinet is trying to cover that up. This is clearly about regime change. The president also said something a few days ago. He said the worst case scenario of all, this action by America is if someone as bad as the previous ayatollah is put into power. And that's exactly what we're seeing, seeing his son, somebody who is considered to be one of the most brutal leaders in Iran, someone who had been at the hand of approving the brutal crackdown in 2009 of the Iranian people and killed many, many untold thousands of Iranians. This is someone with perhaps the closest ties to the IRGC Quds Force terror operation in Iran from the religious cleric level. So we are putting into place the preferred candidate of the terror operation of Iran, the Quds Force. That is what Donald Trump has unleashed upon our world. Someone who is younger, someone who could very well be in power for some time. I remember when we finally captured Saddam Hussein eight months into the Iraq war. Did things get better after that? Did things get less violent after that? Was there less threat upon the American service members? No way. More Americans were killed after Saddam Hussein's capture than before his capture. You know, I was in Afghanistan right around the time that Osama bin Laden was caught. Did that unleash golden age for America? No, there was continued violence. In fact, you know, we saw the demise of Al Qaeda in Iraq and celebrated that, only to see someone like Baghdadi take the reins and turn it into isis. So just decapitating the leader has never proven to be a strategy that guarantees anything better. And especially with a country of 90 million people with the 8th largest military in the world, this is something that could very well unleash something even worse than what we've seen before in terms of imminent threat. If we didn't have imminent threat before against the United States, we likely will have it now, thanks to Donald Trump.
- [53:48]
Hari Srinivasan
Senator Andy Kim of New Jersey, thanks so much for your time.
- [53:52]
Senator Andy Kim
Thank you.
- [53:54]
Paula Newton
And finally, for us, even in the face of persecution, many fearless Iranians are speaking out against the war, including Iran's women's football team. Now, in a bittersweet moment, five members have been granted asylum in Australia, potentially abandoning hopes of seeing their loved ones again. This comes after the squad refused to sing the national anthem last week, prompting fears of harsh punishment upon return to their homes. Many have shown concern for their safety, from blocking buses to rallying at airports as two more members seek refuge. Now, others have reportedly left Australia in pursuit of a route back to Iran, a difficult choice, of course, but a brave one in an uncertain time. And that's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. I want to thank you for watching. And goodbye from New York,
- [55:04]
Senator Andy Kim
Ra.