Christiane Amanpour (3:43)

I just wonder, this administration, the Trump administration has to go to the Supreme Court in the United States this week to, to defend its tariff program because as most people know, tariffs are a prerogative of Congress instead of just unilateral decisions by the executive. Do you have an expectation, do you have a desire to see a result from the Supreme Court that will put it back in the hands of Congress?

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (4:12)

Well, let me put it this way. At the World Trade Organization we focus on the multilateral aspects of the, of the trade. And whilst I always say, and people have heard me say this, that whilst you may not agree with the unilateral actions of the US I agree with a lot of the criticisms that they've made of the organization and the world trading system. And I actually, you know, want to say that the system has to take this, this crisis as an opportunity to reform. And that's the way that I think we should go. We should not waste time, but look at what works within the system, what doesn't work and how do we change that? We should use this as the chance to reform the organization and the trading system.

Christiane Amanpour (5:08)

So you say you agree with some of the criticisms of the practices of the World Trade Organization and the global trading system can tell us, I mean, you're an expert. But for those of us who aren't, what are the big issues that you think need reform?

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (5:24)

First is the way we make decisions. We are a consensus decision making organization which is great. True consensus, meaning the voice of the smallest is as important as the voice of the largest. But we practice this as unanimity, meaning all 166 members have to agree to any decision. And you can imagine how difficult that is, Christian. So sometimes it does result in paralysis and you can't make decisions on some of the key things. So I think we need to find a way to make consensus. We should keep it, but make it more efficient in terms of the way we take decisions. Another is that many members feel that there's less transparency in the system now. And they also talk about unfair trading practices, the fact that barriers to trade are going up, more not down and level playing field, use of subsidies, industrial policy to try to industrialize and protect manufacturing. Guess what, Christian? There are exciting things happening in trade, believe it or not. We've got digital trade and digitally delivered services trade growing at 8% per year. We've got green trade growing almost $2 trillion worth of green trade. You know, there's some services. Trade is growing twice as fast as Good Street. There's so many exciting things happening that if we reform ourselves, we can take opportunity of those new things happening and serve people. The organization's purpose as written in its founding documents is to help enhance living standards, help create jobs and support sustainable development. It's all about people and that's what I want us to focus on.

Christiane Amanpour (7:14)

The most recent big group of people who could affect trade just happened last week in South Korea, Busan. President Trump met not just with his own allies and partners, but also with President Xi Jinping of China. I spoke to one of President Trump's previous 1.0 national security officials and expert on China Matt Pottinger. And he said at best the agreement that came out was a fragile truce, that at best it was almost like status quo ante. Both of them backed off a little bit of the hardline tactics that they had employed. How do you see the result of what came of their meeting and their, you know, slightly backing off some of the hardest line policies that they had?

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (7:59)

I see it very positively and we see positively at the wto. If you think back to the beginning of the escalation when the tariffs came in in April, I think I was one of the first to say that we would like China and the US to de escalate because any escalation and breakup or decoupling of the two economies, it's not just China and the US but others and my members, many of them smaller economies, they are caught between and they don't want to be in a position where they are trying to be made to go on one side or the other. Secondly, decoupling of this information of two trading, separate trading groups, I.e. fragmentation of the trading system will result in losses to global GDP in the longer term. Actually we've modeled it 7% global GDP losses. In the longer term this is not good and for developing countries it will be double digit losses. So we are very happy about the de escalation I think even if people feel it's fragile and temporary, gives time for more dialogue and coming to terms with each other's difficulties and needs.

Christiane Amanpour (9:09)

Trump obviously gets a lot of kudos for calling out the unfair playing field that Chinese trade often plays on. But he also, as we've talked about, has imposed draconian tariffs. Just talked about backing off a little bit with China, but even on allies like India, I mean Brazil, Europe, just all over the place, South Korea, Japan, using trade as a tool. What does it mean if allies, if your allies are Being punished in the same way as your adversary is or your competitor is. If you're trying to build a. A fair competitive playing field against the rising superpower.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (9:56)

Well, you know, let me say this. Global trade and the system built over 80 years has largely delivered prosperity to all nations. It's lifted more than a billion people out of poverty. It's made both rich countries and poor countries better. Not everyone benefited the way they should. We recognize that. And I think some problems have crept into the global trading system that should have been dealt with. That's why I say I agree with some of the criticisms that the Americans make. But by the way, they are not the only ones criticizing the system. Developing countries feel the system has not worked as well for them, that they haven't been integrated into the system. They haven't benefited as much. I want to use this opportunity to say to the members, to give them credit, because what is happening now, a very interesting thing. Many of them, you know, it's like they took the WTO for granted. It's like your always joke is like the plumbing. I'll keep repeating this joke in your house. You don't notice it until a pipe breaks and the water ruins your wonderful Persian carpets. And then you suddenly realize, oh, wow, the plumbing matters. So the WTO has the bedrock of rules that really makes the world trading system work in a predictable and stable fash. And they are coming to realize that now and saying, we really need this system and we have to work at trying to reform those things, like you said.

Christiane Amanpour (11:28)

So that's all great, except that trade growth is declining. Global trade growth is collapsing under this new U.S. tariff regime. WTO now forecasts, your organization that only 2.4% this year of growth, but just 0.5% next year. You've described this as the greatest disruption in 80 years, but you say the system might be battered, but it's not broken. But that's a lot of battering.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (11:55)

Yes, it is a lot of battering.

Christiane Amanpour (11:57)

And many nations see in African nations and other nations, European, South American, wherever you look, Asian, they see their economies at risk of a serious battering or maybe in some cases collapse. Look at Lesotho because of these just tariffs.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (12:13)

So, Christiane, you're right, and I've said that it's the greatest disruption in trade in 80 years. But the system, you can see the battery by the fact that the MFN trade came down from 80% to 72%. But there's also one thing that has come up which I think all nations are taking account of the system was built for interdependence, not over dependence. And many nations have become too over dependent on the US for market demand and on China for critical supplies. So this is also a wake up call to try to diversify your sources of demand and supply.

Christiane Amanpour (12:57)

We know that China has made huge inroads into the economy and the resources of Africa, outpacing the United States. We know that the UAE and that region is also doing a lot of that. Give us a health check of the African economy. I know it's. I know there are many countries, but in general as a continent especially, I mean Nigeria, South Africa, the big powerhouses.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (13:24)

Well, I would say, I mean the continent is forecast to grow now by the IMF at about 4% for this year, next year, which is 1 percentage point almost above global growth. But it should really aim to do more given the population size. But still, it's good to know that there's a trend above global growth. That's one. The continent has a lot of resources and a lot of things going for it. But there are also many challenges. Let me say one or two of the positive things. First, by 2050 there'll be 2.5 billion people in the continent. It will have 22% of the working age population of the world. If this population is skilled, it could really be a resource for the continent and for the whole world. So that's pretty amazing In a world in which many parts are challenged demographically, whether it's Europe or the US or China, there's an aging of population. Or the uk, you have a young population if it is properly skilled. And I want to insist on that. You can't just say we have people, therefore we are rich, they've got to be skilled, we've got to be up with the technology and the AI and so on. We have 30% of the world's mineral resources. We have 67% of the world's arable land. And I could go on and on. So just to mention a few of the things going for the continent, but how do we make this work for us? We have to deal with several challenges. Investing in infrastructure is certainly one of them. I think infrastructure is getting in the way. Lack of infrastructure, ports, electricity is the number one. We need to tackle the challenge of skills and education, connectivity. We have the African Continental Free Trade Area which is I think one of the best things we have going on, trade. But we've got to accelerate the workings of the organization because we are trading with ourselves only 15 to 20% of our trade is among ourselves. Now, compare that to the EU. We are more than 60% of trade, so we have a long way to go. That brings me to the Lesotho comment. I was asking, why don't we buy this $200 million worth of textiles within the continent? If we spend 7 billion to import some of the same kinds of textiles, why does Lesotho have to struggle? It costs 20% more for us to trade with each other on the continent than with others externally. Something is wrong with that. So we need to bring our average costs down. If we do all of these things, we can take advantage of all these wonderful opportunities that I listed. But I have to just add what makes me excited about the continent, what young people are doing. Young people in Fintech, they're inventing new things. In Agritech, we have companies that are helping farmers do better in health, tech and creative industries, also African music and creativity. And I say to myself, you know, if we have young people who are this creative, how do we support them better? Because it shows that we really have what it takes. And when I say, I think this is an exciting continent and I find my country very exciting in spite of the challenges. I'm not trying to run away from challenges, Christian. I'm not. But I'm just excited to be African and to be Nigerian because of what I see.

Christiane Amanpour (17:24)

Well, we went over, but it was worth it.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (17:29)

I'm sorry.

Nicholas Thompson (17:30)

No, it was an Africa.

Christiane Amanpour (17:33)

Dr. Ngozi, thank you so much.

Bianna Golodrigo (17:37)

And now to the death of former Vice President Dick Cheney. Long regarded as one of the most powerful and controversial second in commands in American history, he died at the age of 84 after a career that refined, redefined vice presidency and shaped America's response. After 9 11, chief architect of the Iraq war and a relentless advocate for expanding presidential power, Cheney's influence still looms large over Washington. Wolf Blitzer takes a look back at some of the key moments in his tenure.

Nicholas Thompson (18:07)

Gradually, I realized that the person who.

Bianna Golodrigo (18:11)

Was best qualified to be my vice.

Nicholas Thompson (18:13)

Presidential nominee was working by my side.

Wolf Blitzer (18:17)

For most of his adult life. Richard Bruce Cheney was the ultimate Washington insider. That I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. The duties of the office on which I am about to enter. Named as George Bush's running mate in 2000, Dick Cheney quickly forged a public identity as a no nonsense, disciplined gatekeeper, a powerful politician to whom and through whom access and influence flowed. But his appearance at the very highest levels of government was by no means his first time in the national Spotlight. He began his public service career in the Nixon administration, working in several White House jobs dealing with the economy. After President Nixon resigned because of Watergate, Cheney worked for the new President, Gerald Ford, eventually becoming his chief of staff. When that 29 month presidency ended, Cheney returned to the land he loved, to his home in Wyoming. But it was a very short stay. Elected as the state's only member of the House of Representatives, Cheney returned to the Capitol and served for a decade in Congress. He was in the Republican leadership hierarchy when the first President Bush chose him to be his Secretary of Defense faithfully discharged the duties of the office in charge of the Pentagon. Cheney was almost instantly engaged in two of the American military's largest and most complicated operations since the end of the Vietnam War. First, he led the removal of Panama's Manuel Noriega from power. And then Operation Desert Storm, the American and allied response after the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein.

Michael Sandel (19:54)

We have in effect destroyed most of the Iraqi army. We have taken out most of the infrastructure. The lights are out in Baghdad.

Wolf Blitzer (20:03)

His experience and steadfastness were of critical importance. And those traits were not unnoticed. Out of government for the first time in years. During the Clinton administration, Cheney became head of the giant oil services company Halliburton. It was a job that kept him steeped in defense and foreign policy and a role that later became a lightning rod for his critics. By the time his old boss's son secured the Republican presidential nomination, Cheney's health was a major concern. Three mild heart attacks and a quadruple bypass before he was 50. Doctors gave him a green light. But Shortly after the 2000 election, he suffered another mild heart attack. I've got a doctor that follows me.

Nicholas Thompson (20:44)

Around 24 hours a day.

Michael Sandel (20:45)

That comes with a job as Vice president.

Wolf Blitzer (20:48)

Cheney quickly became a target for Bush administration critics, especially for convening oil and energy industry representatives to a White House meeting and then declining to make public any contents of the sessions. And later, after the terrorist attacks on 9 11, he became at times invisible to the public. Only a few people knew where he was for much of the time. But behind the scenes, Cheney was a driving force behind some of the biggest controversies of the Bush administration, including the second war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq in 2007. I asked him about mistakes made and concerns among some Republicans that that the war had damaged the Bush administration's credibility.

Nicholas Thompson (21:28)

Wolf, I simply don't accept the premise of your question.

Wolf Blitzer (21:31)

I just think it's hogwash. Cheney's health problems returned after he left office. For a time drastically altering his appearance. Another heart attack in 2010 prompted doctors to implant a battery operated device to help his heart pump blood. His health seemed to stabilize after a 2012 heart transplant at the age of 71. Cheney largely disappeared from public life until emerging at the site of the January 6th insurrection one year after it happened. During a moment of silence on the House floor, Cheney accompanied his daughter, Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney, also a member of the select committee that investigated the attack. He was warmly greeted by the House speaker, Democrat Nancy Pelosi.

Nicholas Thompson (22:15)

In our nation's 246 year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump.

Wolf Blitzer (22:22)

Later that year, Cheney tried to help his daughter's struggling primary campaign after she came under fire from former President Trump and his devoted supporters over her work on the January 6 committee.

Nicholas Thompson (22:35)

He is a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters.

Wolf Blitzer (22:38)

When Trump ran for president again in 2024 against Vice President Kamala Harris, Cheney joined his daughter in endorsing the Democratic nominee.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (22:47)

Dick Cheney will be voting for Kamala Harris.

Wolf Blitzer (22:50)

American politicians have no shortage of critics, and Dick Cheney was no exception. But there were just as many, perhaps more, who saw him as a resolute, disciplined loyalist who wound up becoming one of the most influential and powerful vice presidents in American history.

Michael Sandel (23:08)

The most important thing that any vice president needs to know is to understand.

Nicholas Thompson (23:12)

What it is the president he works.

Michael Sandel (23:13)

For wants him to do and do.

Bianna Golodrigo (23:15)

Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after a short break.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (23:24)

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

Michael Sandel (23:28)

There's a whole category of people now who are in this in between world where they're neither sick or well. That is Jonathan Gluck.

Wolf Blitzer (23:37)

He's a writer and the author of.

Michael Sandel (23:38)

A new book called An Exercise in Uncertainty, A memoir of Illness and Hope. It's about his odyssey with incurable cancer.

Nicholas Thompson (23:47)

That has been going on for more than 20 years. I call us cancer zombies.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (23:52)

Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Bianna Golodrigo (24:01)

And now to the spirit of running on full display this weekend as nearly 60,000 runners took to the streets of New York City for the city's legendary marathon. In a heart stopping finish, Benson Kipruto from Kenya won by just three hundredths of a second, the closest in the race's history, crossing at 2:08:09. And Helen Oberi set a women's course record, finishing in two. 1951 finishing last to a wave of cheers and tears. The crowd was Venezuelan Juan Pablo dos Santos and amputee who ran for over 15 hours. And somewhere in between, closer to the first finishers, was our next guest, Nicholas Thompson, CEO of the Atlantic and a serious elite runner in his own right, a record holder in the 50k ultramarathon. In his new book, the Running A Father, a Son, and the Simplest of Sports, he explores what fuels that passion and he joins me now from New York. Nick, my good friend, it is good to see you. Congratulations on this book. I read it in one day, in one sitting almost. It's a wonderful read and I've learned so much about you. And as a fellow runner, there's so much that I identified with as well, even though I'm much slower than you. So let's start off with the marathon on Sunday. I know you were disappointed with your time. Just to give our viewers a sense of what your time was, you finished in 3 hours, 6 minutes and 41 seconds. I looked this up on ChatGPT and that's in the 85th to 90th percentile of all finishers. And yet you were disappointed. You posted on Instagram that your 15 year old son said, do not post that race on Strava, which is a fitness app. Do not tell anyone you ran. Enter another one immediately and bury that garbage. Why were you disappointed in that time, Nick? It's incredible.

Nicholas Thompson (25:59)

You know, Vianna, every finish is beautiful. Every finish is wonderful. But as you know, if you go out and you're trying to run like I wanted to run a lot faster, it wasn't my day, so I ran a lot slower. You know, sometimes you're happy, sometimes you're sad. I mean, the serious point is like, it is wonderful. Every finish is a gift. It was beautiful. But like in marathoning, you set very specific goals and most people don't understand them. And most people think you did great no matter what you finish. But sometimes, as you know, you're psyched and sometimes you're not.

Bianna Golodrigo (26:32)

And most people don't know that you have to wake up at ungodly hours for a race. I'm not talking about even the training for the race, but let's just talk about race day. Especially here in New York. You have to wake up some people about seven hours before they even start the race and then trek on a ferry and on buses all the way to Staten island in the shivering cold sometimes, or the rain and eat at 2 or 3 in the morning while your family is nice and cozy. I believe this is your 12th New York City Marathon. I'm not sure, but you Start the book out by detailing that trek to the start line. Why do you do it? Explain why this is such a special event. You do it much better than I do.

Nicholas Thompson (27:16)

Well, the New York City Marathon is a particularly special event. Right. I live in New York and it crosses through all five boroughs. You see everybody, like the inconvenience is a feature and a bug, right? It makes it very hard to get to the start, but it also means that you're passing through the entire city in a magical way. And for me, the races really caught up with deep emotional things. It was the first marathon I ran really fast when I was 30 years old. I had struggled for a decade to break three hours in the marathon, and then I did, and then I ran 2 hours and 43 minutes in New York. So I felt on top of the world, like, that's a great time. And then right after I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer and there was this two year journey to get back, surgeries, radiation. It was very hard. And then I came back in 2007 and I ran the exact same race in the exact same time, 2 hours and 43 minutes. And so this race in particular has emotional resonance to me because it's a reminder that I'm alive and that I got through this very hard thing that happened now 20 years ago.

Bianna Golodrigo (28:17)

And as a cancer thriver now, you talk about in your book just the fact that you appreciate life more. It's made you happier as a husband, as a father, as an entrepreneur, and as a runner. And that's not unique to your case. You lay out that most people who survive a disease like cancer and come out thriving appreciate life a lot more, and that is understandable. Nick, if you could just read for us, if you don't mind, a passage from your book, just to give us sort of a day in the life of what training to be an elite runner feels like and how grueling it is.

Nicholas Thompson (28:59)

Yeah, well, I don't know if this is training to be an elite runner. I mean, this is also. This is training to, you know, if you're going to be a serious marathoner. This passage applies to you. To get faster, particularly in a long race like a marathon, you have to get out every day and run. Even when you're sore, tired, cold, grumpy, busy, or all of the above, you have to run. When you have problems with aches, blisters, cramps, diarrhea, exhaustion, fasciitis, grogginess, headaches, ingrown toenails, jock itch, knee pain, lightheadedness, Menstruation, numbness, overheating, queasiness, rashes, swelling, toothaches, unhappiness, vomit, wounds, and Xanthomas. You have to run through swarms of yellowjackets, and you definitely have to run when you're zonked. But the deeper truth about training for a marathon is you have to learn to run when you hurt, and you have to learn to hurt when you run. You have to learn to enjoy the pain. That was a hard passage to write. I had to. Coming up with an X for the alphabetical list was tough, but I got xanthomas and was very happy with it.

Bianna Golodrigo (30:02)

Well, you described it perfectly. I mean, that sounds to me like my. My cycle as a runner and how I got to be able to complete the marathons that I have. Not nearly as many as you have. But talk to us about why. Ultimately, you can't imagine life without going through that now.

Nicholas Thompson (30:22)

You know, I feel like, you know, a, it's a reminder about what I got through. B, it's a way to kind of set a stoic goal and to set an objective. And you kind of repeat and relearn that lesson of what it means to set a goal, how to pace yourself, how to get out every day. And then what I say about, you have to learn to enjoy the pain. It isn't just the pain while you run. It's the kind of the ache that you have. And you've had this biana a lot. You ran two marathons in the last month where you're training so hard and you're pushing yourself to the very limits of what you can do physically. But you're not across the red line. You're not at the point where you're breaking yourself down, but you are at the point where when you stand up from your chair, you feel it, right? And you feel that ache in your quads and you feel a little bit in your calves. And that's a really beautiful thing because it's a reminder of what's happening in your body, right? And as we get older, right, as we get past our physical peak, the fact that we can continue to push ourselves and continue to get stronger is a really beautiful feeling about being alive. And so that's why I keep doing it. At some point, I'll stop. I'm 50 years old. Like, you can't run forever. At some point, I'll stop racing. At some point, I'll stop running. But I'm going to keep doing both as long as I can.

Bianna Golodrigo (31:35)

Well, you know, there are runners I Think the oldest runner in New York's marathon on Sunday was well into his 90s. So I think you have many, many more years ahead of you. And every single runner has a story as to what got them into running in the first place. An inspiration, most people, at least. And for you, that was your father, who was also a distance runner. Quite good at it. You ran your first mile. There's a picture of long hair. I really dig this look. I never expected it on you, Nick, but it works. You ran your first smile as a very young child, running alongside your dad as he trained. And you write, running connects me to my father. It reminds me of my father, and it gives me a way to avoid becoming my father. And those last few words, you had a very complicated relationship with your father, who was a very complicated man. He passed away recently. There was a great deal of love between the two of you. There was also a lot of torment. Your father's own personal demons, his struggle with alcoholism, his struggle with his own sexuality. Just talk about the role he played in your life as not only his son, but a runner like him.

Nicholas Thompson (32:51)

Yeah, so my father is an amazing person. He grows up in a kind of tough situation in Oklahoma. He busts out, get scholarships. Andover, Stanford, Rhodes scholarship. John F. Kennedy says, this kid's going to be president. Comes back, marries my mother, who at that point is a prominent Washington family. My grandfather was under Secretary of Defense at the point, like, my father is marrying into this world and moving into this world that he could only have imagined behind his Oklahoma curtains. And everybody thinks it's just going to be, you know, a rocket ship upwards. And then he starts to struggle. It starts to get hard. He doesn't fulfill his professional ambitions. He drinks too much. It's a little chaotic. And then, you know, a few years after I'm born, he realizes that he's gay and he comes out of the closet. He leaves my mother, moves to Washington. In some ways, he becomes a gay civil rights pioneer. He's the first openly gay Republican presidential appointee. But he also has this, you know, really rough sex addiction. And his life becomes incredibly chaotic. And, you know, it ends with him bankrupt, running something kind of like a brothel in Bali in the process. Like in that period where he's coming out and his life is changing dramatically. Everything is chaos. He starts to run. It's the end of the 70s, late 70s running boom. His father just passed away, which kind of frees him up to do things. And I'm five or six years old, and so he starts to Take me running, right, And I'll go run a mile or run two miles with him. And that's how I learned the sport. And then when I was seven years old, I go to the Queensborough bridge, right? Mile 16, right? You come down. It's one of the best parts of the race, right? It's been loud. You go on the bridge, it's kind of shady, it's quiet, it's strange, it's steep, uphill. And you go down and you're feeling really good. And then you just sort of hear the loudness. Climbing, climbing, climbing. And I was one of those fans at the bottom of the bridge when my dad runs his fastest marathon, right? And I give him a new pair of shoes, I give him a glass of orange juice. He hurries on. And so those memories of him running, of him strong, of him running with me, implanted themselves in me. And I also got this belief that. And it's something that his friends told me when I was doing research for the book, that running helped him control his demons at this hard part of his life, and running helped him stay disciplined and stay strong and stay connected. And so I've always felt that running for me is a way to connect me to him. This thing we did together and we did in our adulthood. But it's also a way to kind of be different from him, right? To keep my discipline, to kind of keep that stoicism, to keep the sense that every day you're going to kind of keep things in control. And it isn't a coincidence. I don't think that after he died, that's when I got much faster, right? That's when I moved from running 243s to running a 229 to setting records. And I think it was partly, you know, running more intensely was a way to mourn him and also to not be him.

Bianna Golodrigo (35:35)

Yeah, you took the best of your dad from everything I read in this book. And I have to say, you yourself are an incredible father. I don't know how you juggle everything from managing a company to managing your running schedule and obviously, most importantly, your family, quickly. For those at home that say, this is so intimidating, there's no way I can pick up a pair of sneakers and start running myself. Your few words of advice in that everyone can really go out and jog.

Nicholas Thompson (36:02)

Everyone can go out and jog, no matter your body type. Look at the people who ran the New York City Marathon. Look at the person who finished last in the New York City Marathon, who finished the whole thing this is what I recommend. Get a pair of running shoes, go out the door. Maybe you'll run to one streetlight, maybe you'll run to the next block. But as you do it, close every sense but one. Just think about what you hear and focus on that for a second. Or just think about what you see, or think about what you smell, or just think about your body. Think about your forefoot, your heel, your Achilles, your knee, your hip. Think about balance. Think about where your head sits on your neck. Just be fully present and aware of where you are and it's a beautiful.

Bianna Golodrigo (36:41)

Experience and it helps you make better choices throughout your day and life, I have to say. Nicholas Thompson, it's a great book. I highly recommend it. Congratulations, my friend. There's nothing.

Nicholas Thompson (36:50)

Thank you so much. And congratulations to you on your killer marathons recently. Thank you.

Bianna Golodrigo (36:55)

Thank you. Nowhere near your time, but thank you, Nick Thompson. Really appreciate it. And we'll be right back after this short break.

Michael Sandel (37:06)

Hey, fans, it's the King of Christmas.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (37:09)

If you're suffering from ornament overload, it's.

Michael Sandel (37:12)

A little messy in here.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (37:13)

If you have blow molds on the.

Bianna Golodrigo (37:15)

Brain, what I need in my life right there.

Michael Sandel (37:17)

You might just be a holiday hoarder.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (37:19)

I'm a collector.

Nicholas Thompson (37:20)

We'll use the C word instead. If it's kind of ugly, why don't.

Michelle Martin (37:24)

We get rid of it?

Michael Sandel (37:25)

Would you get rid of an ugly child?

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (37:28)

I knew you were crazy about Christmas.

Michelle Martin (37:30)

Not this crazy.

Michael Sandel (37:32)

Courting for the Holidays Special Series Tuesday, November 11th at 9 on HGTV.

Bianna Golodrigo (37:41)

Now, huge numbers of working class Americans voted for President Trump in the last election, even as he promised to extend tax breaks to the richest in the country. And our next guest claims Trump was about to exploit working class anger towards educated elites to win the presidency, despite some of his signature policies having the potential to make their lives measurably worse. Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel joins Michel Martin to discuss what he says is the widening income and education gap in the US that's helped fuel Trump's populist rise to power.

Michelle Martin (38:15)

Thanks, Biana. Professor Michael Sandel, thank you so much for joining us. Great to be with you and congratulations because one of the reasons we are speaking with you today is that you have just been awarded what's considered a very prestigious prize for philosophy. The Berguen Prize is an acknowledgement of a body of work, and not just a body of work, but a body of work that has global impact. One of the reasons it's really, it's sort of timely to speak with you and is. We are in a moment in this country where it just seems like the worst impulses of human beings are not just brought to the fore, but amplified. You know, we talk a lot about political polarization, but what we seem to be seeing is like political hatred. I mean, it isn't just that people disagree with people about tax policy, like what should the corporate tax rate. No, if we disagree with you, you are evil, you are stupid, you are wrong. And I just wonder, how does a political philosopher like you think of a.

Michael Sandel (39:12)

Moment this well, you're right, Michelle. Our civic life isn't going very well. What passes for political discourse consists of shouting matches, of ideological food fights where people argue past one another without really listening. And so part of what, what I try to do as a teacher of political philosophy, but also when I have the opportunity to travel around the world and to speak to public audiences, especially to younger people, is to really invite them to engage in a discussion not only with me, but with one another on some of the most ethically fraught questions, the moral and civic dilemmas of our time. And what I find is that given the opportunity, given the occasion to step back, there is a hunger among people, generally democratic citizens, but especially young people, to reason together, to argue together, to debate together in public about big questions that matter. The problem is that our political parties aren't really attending to this. The mainstream media, for the most part, does not provide these kinds of forums for serious public debate. And social media only makes things worse. So we need to lean against these tendencies, the hollowing out of our public discourse, if we're to address the questions that really matter for self government.

Michelle Martin (40:59)

Why do you think it is that somebody like Donald Trump, born to wealth, accumulated much more over his time in public life, has been able to claim so much loyalty from people whose lives are so different from his?

Michael Sandel (41:16)

I am critical of well educated, well credentialed elites who were completely blindsided by the election of Donald Trump in 2016. And we see this around the world increasingly, the divide, and this really goes back four or five decades, Michelle. The divide between winners and losers has been deepening, poisoning our politics, setting us apart. This has partly to do with the widening inequalities of income and wealth brought about by the age of globalization. But it's not only that. It has also to do with the attitudes towards success that have accompanied the widening inequalities. Those who've landed on top have come to believe that their success is their own doing, the measure of their merit, and that they therefore deserve the full bounty that the market bestows upon them. And this has led to a set of anger. It's led to anger, resentments, and a set of grievances, especially among working people without college degrees. The diploma divide is one of the deepest divides now in electoral politics. A great many working people feel that credentialed elites look down on them. And here's where Donald Trump comes in. He's been able to exploit the grievances of working people who feel elites look down, and he goes after those elites. It's no accident that in one of his, after one of his primary victories back in 2016, he proclaimed, I love the poorly educated. We won with poorly educated.

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (43:09)

I love the poorly educated with the.

Michael Sandel (43:13)

It was a crude, perhaps, way of addressing what he sensed was this wellspring of anger that he's managed to tap into. And so I think that to respond effectively to Donald Trump, it's not enough simply to say he threatens democracy and constitutional norms. It's also necessary for progressives, for Democrats, for liberals, to reconsider their own political project and to ask if Donald Trump represents a threat, if he's as disagreeable as we say he is, how come people went for him instead of what we have to offer? I think that the progressives need to offer a reimagined political project.

Michelle Martin (44:04)

What would that look like? I tell you, because this is the kind of thing that. That I would say the continuum of reaction among progressives is unease, to rage, because on the one hand, they look at their policy accomplishments, they look at something like the Affordable Care act, and they say, you know what? 40 million people were uninsured before the Affordable Care Act. The percentage of uninsured is down to single digits, not because of Donald Trump and his policies, but because of Democrats pushing for this law, pushing for subsidies to help people afford the law. And yet people don't seem. I'm not going to say grateful, but they don't seem. It's not sort of as persuasive. On the other hand, and yet Democrats are sort of puzzled by their idea of student loan forgiveness evoked this kind of rage. And then they look at that and they think, well, why? What's so terrible about that? And I'm just sort of curious, how do you understand that?

Michael Sandel (45:02)

Right? And you're, you're certainly right, Michelle. Not only is the Democrats who produced the Affordable Care act, but Donald Trump is trying to get rid of those subsidies, been trying to, years.

Michelle Martin (45:16)

It has been for years, since his.

Michael Sandel (45:18)

First term, on which his voters, his supporters depend. Many of them for their health care. And what that suggests is that there is something else going on here. And it goes back to this idea of elites looking down. Democrats, along with Republicans since the 1980s, affirmed and promoted a version of market driven globalization that did produce substantial economic growth over the past five decades. But most of that, most of the gains went to the top 20% and almost none of went to the bottom half, the median. The, the, the wage in real terms for the median worker in the United States was nearly flat, nearly stagnant for five decades. And this was during a period when Democrats as well as Republicans promoted free trade agreements, the deregulation of the financial industry. When the financial crash came, the Wall street bailout and and bellarized getting a college degree. The response to inequality was if you want to compete and win in the global economy, go to college. What you earn will depend on what you learn. You can make it if you try. But it turned out that individual upward mobility through higher education is not an adequate response to inequality. In fact, it adds that mantra. I call it the rhetoric of rising. It adds insult to the injury of economic inequality because it says to people, if you're struggling in the new economy and if you didn't get a degree, your failure must be your fault. Those of us who spend our days in the company of the credential can easily forget that most of our fellow citizens do not have a four year college degree. About 60% do not. So it was folly for Democrats and mainstream Republicans to create an economy that sets as a necessary condition on dignified work and a decent life, a four year degree that most people don't have. So what that suggests is we need to focus on the dignity of work, asking how to make life better for everyone who contributes to the common good, whether or not they have a college degree.

Michelle Martin (47:55)

Why do you think it is that in your view, the center left or progressives are, as you put it earlier. I don't know that I would say this, but allergic to infusing these sort of political discussions with a moral sensibility. Why do you think that is?

Michael Sandel (48:15)

It's not just polites and it's the principled conviction that we should try to respect disagreement, moral disagreement, by avoiding it for political purposes, to avoid coercing people, to avoid imposing values on those who may disagree. But value neutral politics is not inspiring to anyone. People want public life to address larger questions of values and meaning. And so I think that progressives should overcome their hesitancy, even their allergy sometimes. And this is not true of all Progressives, but it's a strain within liberalism and embrace rather than avoid moral argument in politics.

Michelle Martin (49:10)

Is there anybody on the left who you think is doing this or the center left who's doing this?

Michael Sandel (49:15)

Well, well, if we can look back to recent history, I think we can find examples. Martin Luther King grew explicitly on moral and sometimes religious arguments in his politics. In making the case against segregation, Jim Crow, he drew on a morally resonant, spiritually rich political vocabulary. And that was an important part of his, his power and appeal. Robert F. Kennedy in 1968, I don't mean the, the junior, I mean the senior RFK. He was onto this when he, he was speaking about the war in Vietnam and poverty in America. He was drawing on morally and spiritually grounded political rhetoric, political discourse, and it was very compelling. And so these are two examples.

Michelle Martin (50:24)

Well, that's kind of depressing though. These are both, I mean, those are both gentlemen who lived some decades ago, and those are both gentlemen who met an untimely end by being assassinated in part because of their, I mean, in part because of their efforts to advance these beliefs.

Michael Sandel (50:43)

Well, we had, we did have another glimpse, and I should should mention this, and, and the, another glimpse of possibility for a morally and spiritually infused progressive politics. And that was Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign when he stirred a civic idealism that inspired not only Americans, but people around the world. And he promised by his example and his rhetoric and his eloquence during the campaign, he gestured toward a morally more engaged kind of public discourse than the technocratic kind of market driven discourse that Democrats especially had embraced from, from the 80s up until that point. That was part of his promise as a candidate. But unfortunately he took office right in the midst of the financial crisis and appointed economists who had been part of the neoliberal orthodoxy that had shared in the deregulation. And then came the Wall street bailout. And I think this dampened and diverted him from the civic idealism that his campaign, that amazing campaign seemed to gesture toward. And Democrats slid back into more technocratic habits and modes of political argument. But there was a glimmer there. And perhaps, who knows, perhaps as people struggle with the question of how to confront Donald Trump and Maga, perhaps we both, we will hear and find new voices among progressives for a politics of the common good that takes community seriously, that offers a version of patriotism that can inspire those who don't want to associate patriotism merely with hostility to immigrants, but also a more affirmative project of moral and civic renewal.

Michelle Martin (53:14)

Professor Michael Sandel thank you so much for speaking with us. And congratulations once again.

Michael Sandel (53:19)

Thank you, Michelle.

Bianna Golodrigo (53:21)

And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And you can remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching and goodbye. From New York, I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. If you've been in a gas station or a liquor store lately, you may have noticed a yellow machine in a corner that looks like a traditional atm, but where you can actually exchange cash for cryptocurrency. More and more of these crypto ATMs have popped up as cryptocurrency has gone mainstream. But as the incredible team at CNN's investigative unit found recently, these machines have also become a prime tool for scammers to seize money from victims. So how do these scams work? And how can you make sure you and your loved ones avoid them? Listen to CNN's Terms of Service with me, Claire Duffy. Wherever you get your podcasts.