Amanpour Podcast: "Targeting Trump Tariffs"
CNN Podcasts | November 4, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode of Amanpour (guest-hosted by Bianna Golodryga) centers on the far-reaching impact of Donald Trump’s aggressive tariff policies, now facing a historic legal challenge at the U.S. Supreme Court. The show explores the global and domestic consequences of Trump’s approach to trade, perspectives from the World Trade Organization, reflections on American political divides with philosopher Michael Sandel, and the resilience and meaning found in running as Nicholas Thompson discusses his new book. The conversation spans global trade reform, African economic potential, American populism, the legacy of Dick Cheney, and the enduring human spirit on marathon day.
1. Trump’s Tariffs and the Supreme Court (00:45-02:23)
- Key Issue: The Supreme Court prepares to hear a challenge to the legality of many Trump-era tariffs, which relied on a 1970s emergency law to impose staggering import duties (up to 145% on China), impacting nearly $90 billion in revenue already collected.
- Potential Impact: A ruling could limit presidential authority over trade, shift power back to Congress, and create "a financial mess," according to Trump.
Notable Quote:
"If we don't win that case, we will be a weakened, troubled financial mess for many, many years to come."
— Michael Sandel echoing Trump’s warning (02:06)
2. Exclusive Interview: WTO Director General Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala with Christiane Amanpour
Key Segment: (02:36-17:24)
a. Nigeria’s Complexity and U.S. Threats (02:36-03:43)
- Trump’s threat of military intervention in Nigeria over sectarian violence receives a measured, diplomatic response.
- Okonjo-Iweala: Nigeria needs "careful thinking through... it's a very complex country... with religious and resource issues."
b. WTO Reform & The U.S. Tariff Challenge (03:43-07:14)
- Supreme Court Case: Amanpour probes the WTO’s stance on shifting tariff powers back to Congress.
- Okonjo-Iweala: Systemic reform is more urgent than blame: “We should use this as the chance to reform the organization and the trading system.”
Key Areas for WTO Reform (05:24-07:14):
- Decision-making paralysis due to unanimity requirements across 166 member states.
- Need for higher transparency and a level playing field, especially addressing subsidies and trade barriers.
- Emphasis on positive global trade trends: digital services (8% annual growth), $2 trillion green trade boom, and expanding service sectors.
Notable Quote:
"The organization's purpose... is to help enhance living standards, help create jobs and support sustainable development. It's all about people and that's what I want us to focus on."
— Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (06:16)
c. U.S.-China Relations & Trade Truces (07:14-09:09)
- Recent Trump-Xi Jinping meeting produced a "fragile truce"—a de-escalation welcomed by the WTO to stave off a potentially catastrophic "decoupling."
- WTO modeling: Fragmentation threatens up to 7% global GDP loss, with double-digit impacts in poorer countries.
- "Even if people feel it's fragile and temporary, [the truce] gives time for more dialogue," says Okonjo-Iweala (08:25).
d. The Backlash Against Tariffs—Impact on Allies (09:09-11:28)
- Trump’s tariffs don’t spare U.S. allies; Okonjo-Iweala reminds that both wealthy and developing nations now recognize WTO’s foundational role, likening its invisible importance to "the plumbing" you only notice when it breaks (10:26).
e. Global Trade Growth Stalls—A Wake-Up Call (11:28-12:57)
- WTO forecasts a sharp drop in trade growth: 2.4% this year, just 0.5% in 2026.
- Okonjo-Iweala stresses the danger of overdependence on the U.S. or China and calls for economic diversification.
f. Africa’s Economic Prospects & Challenges (12:57-17:24)
- Africa is forecast to grow ~4% this year and next, above global averages.
- Major advantages: Young population, resource wealth (30% of minerals, 67% arable land).
- Challenges: Infrastructure deficits, lack of intra-continental trade (15-20% only, vs. >60% in EU), and need for skill development.
- Youth-driven innovations in fintech, agritech, and creative industries inspire Okonjo-Iweala’s optimism for Africa’s future.
Notable Quote:
“If this population is skilled, it could really be a resource for the continent and for the whole world... I’m just excited to be African and to be Nigerian because of what I see.”
— Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala (14:20 & 17:19)
3. Tribute: Former Vice President Dick Cheney (17:37-23:08)
- Segment: Retrospective on Dick Cheney’s life, from Washington insider to Secretary of Defense to influential Vice President.
- Highlights: Led major military interventions (Panama, Desert Storm), became a controversial figure post-9/11, and later emerged to denounce Trump.
Notable Quote:
“In our nation's 246-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump.”
— Dick Cheney, cited by Wolf Blitzer (22:15)
4. The Spirit of Running: Nicholas Thompson Interview
Segment: (24:01-36:55)
a. NYC Marathon (24:01-27:16)
- 60,000 runners in record-setting conditions; heroic feats from the fastest to the last-place finishers.
- Atlantic CEO Nicholas Thompson, elite runner, discusses his new memoir "The Running Ground."
b. Personal Meaning of Running (27:16-32:51)
- Thompson’s journey: Struggled for years to break three hours in the marathon, succeeded, then confronted and overcame thyroid cancer.
- Emotional significance: "This race in particular has emotional resonance to me because it’s a reminder that I’m alive and that I got through this very hard thing..." (27:59)
Passage Read (28:59):
“To get faster... you have to get out every day and run. Even when you're sore, tired, cold... you have to learn to enjoy the pain.”
- On embracing the aches and discipline marathon training demands.
c. A Family Story—Fathers and Running (32:51-35:35)
- Thompson’s complex relationship with his late father, a distance runner and gay civil rights pioneer.
- Running as both connection to and distinction from his father, whose own struggles and achievements shaped Thompson’s path.
Notable Quote:
"Running for me is a way to connect me to him... But it’s also a way to kind of be different from him, right? To keep my discipline, to kind of keep that stoicism, to keep the sense that every day you’re going to kind of keep things in control."
— Nicholas Thompson (34:26)
d. Advice to Aspiring Runners (36:02-36:41)
“Get a pair of running shoes, go out the door... Just be fully present and aware of where you are and it’s a beautiful experience.”
— Nicholas Thompson
5. The Politics of Populism: Michael Sandel with Michel Martin
Segment: (37:41–53:19)
a. Trump’s Appeal to the Working Class (40:59-43:13)
- Sandel analyzes why Trump, an elite by background, wins loyalty from working-class voters: decades-long divide between the "winners and losers" of globalization, rising meritocratic arrogance, and a “diploma divide” leaving non-college workers feeling disrespected.
Notable Quote:
"He’s been able to exploit the grievances of working people who feel elites look down, and he goes after those elites... I love the poorly educated."
— Michael Sandel (41:16, quoting Trump at 43:09)
b. Failures of Elites & the Meritocracy Myth (45:18-47:55)
- Both political parties promoted market-driven globalization; little of the resulting growth "trickled down" to median wage earners.
- Sandel criticizes “the rhetoric of rising”—the idea that opportunity through education is solely responsible for economic outcomes—as deepening resentment.
Notable Quote:
"It was folly for Democrats and mainstream Republicans to create an economy that sets as a necessary condition on dignified work and a decent life, a four year degree that most people don’t have."
— Michael Sandel (46:57)
c. Progressives’ “Allergy” to Moral Discourse (47:55-50:24)
- Sandel urges the left to embrace value-driven debate, citing Martin Luther King, Robert F. Kennedy, and (briefly) Obama’s 2008 campaign as models.
"Value neutral politics is not inspiring to anyone. People want public life to address larger questions of values and meaning."
— Michael Sandel (48:15)
d. Hope for Civic Renewal (50:43-53:14)
- The challenge: Inspire a version of patriotism and community that can counter Trumpian populism—not with technocracy but with a moral vision.
6. Memorable Quotes & Key Moments (With Timestamps)
- “If we don't win that case, we will be a weakened, troubled financial mess for many, many years to come.” (02:06 – Michael Sandel echoing Trump’s argument)
- “The organization's purpose... is to help enhance living standards, help create jobs and support sustainable development. It's all about people and that's what I want us to focus on.” (06:16 – Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala)
- “Even if people feel it's fragile and temporary, [the truce] gives time for more dialogue.” (08:25 – Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala)
- “Like your [plumbing]... you don’t notice it until a pipe breaks... WTO has the bedrock of rules that really makes the world trading system work.” (10:26 – Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala)
- “To get faster... you have to learn to enjoy the pain.” (29:08 – Nicholas Thompson, reading from his book)
- “Running for me is a way to connect me to him... But it’s also a way to kind of be different from him...” (34:26 – Nicholas Thompson)
- “It was folly for Democrats and mainstream Republicans to create an economy that sets as a necessary condition on dignified work and a decent life, a four year degree that most people don’t have.” (46:57 – Michael Sandel)
7. Timestamps – Key Segments Overview
- 00:45–02:23 — Trump’s tariffs before the Supreme Court
- 02:36–17:24 — Christiane Amanpour w/ Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala: WTO reform, global trade, Africa outlook
- 17:37–23:08 — Dick Cheney tribute & U.S. political legacies
- 24:01–36:55 — Nicholas Thompson on NYC Marathon & his memoir
- 37:41–53:19 — Michael Sandel on U.S. class divides, meritocracy, and political renewal