THE HIGH COST OF U.S. INTERVENTION

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour (CNN Podcasts)

Episode: THE HIGH COST OF U.S. INTERVENTION

Date: July 25, 2026
Host: Bianna Golodriga, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour

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Overview

This episode delves into the financial, human, and geopolitical costs of ongoing U.S. interventions, with a central focus on the war with Iran and the impacts of escalated U.S. sanctions and blockades on Cuba. It features high-profile interviews, special reports from the West Bank, and a literary discussion with Pulitzer Prize-winning author Colson Whitehead. The episode examines themes of transparency and accountability in U.S. foreign policy, the cascading effects of interventionism, and the narratives shaping current international affairs.

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Main Segments and Key Insights

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1. The High Price of War with Iran

• [02:18–10:52] U.S. War Spending and Accountability

  • Congressional Tensions: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth faces aggressive Senate questioning about the war’s cost and strategy—$37.5 billion already spent, with $67 billion more requested without clarity on end goals.
  • Quote:
    “You, sir, are the failure, not the men and women who are on that front line ... you don’t have a strategy, you don’t have a long term plan to actually win this war.”
    — Pete Hegseth, addressing Senate critics [03:30]
  • Human Toll: Thousands of Iranian casualties and more than a dozen American service member deaths.
  • Escalation Risk: U.S. and Israeli targets/focus on suspected Iranian storage of enriched uranium; President Trump threatens further military action.

• Chuck Hagel Interview ([04:09–10:52])

  • Lack of Diplomacy: Former Defense Secretary Hagel criticizes administration for a militaristic, retribution-driven strategy and insufficient pursuit of diplomatic solutions.
    • Quote:
      “Actions have consequences, inactions have consequences ... This is not a real estate deal. You can’t conduct anything like this on a retribution basis.”
      — Chuck Hagel [04:49]
  • Civilian Targets: U.S. strikes on Iranian water plants, retaliation hitting desalinization and power in the Gulf, result in humanitarian crises and regional instability.
    • Quote:
      “You’re creating generations of new terrorists. You’re creating generations of new anti Americans ... Five months ago, the Strait of Hormuz was open, and we’ve made it worse.”
      — Chuck Hagel [06:58]
  • Congressional Oversight: Calls out Congress for failing constitutional and moral responsibility by not forcing transparency or taking a stand.
    • Quote:
      “Where’s the Congress been is ... truly unbelievable to me. And it’s let down the American public.”
      — Chuck Hagel [08:30]
  • Historical Context: Draws parallels to Vietnam, emphasizing historical dangers of war without transparency or accountability.

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2. Cuban Blockade and Rumors of Invasion

• [12:58–19:45] Blockade’s Impact on Cuba
  • On-the-Ground Reality: Congressman Mark Pocan describes severe power outages, medicine and food shortages, hospitals deprived of equipment, and general hardship directly tied to tightened U.S. sanctions.
    • Quote:
      “Their electric grid has failed multiple times for long periods ... We don’t have, you know, they have one of the best medical systems ... and they can’t do that.”
      — Mark Pocan [15:13]
  • Intentions Questioned: Calls State Department’s new report on Cuba “fantastical” and “setting up a military action,” reflecting suspicion that current policy serves domestic politics, not deterrence.
    • Quote:
      “I think this is Marco Rubio’s personal South Florida pet project and he wants us to go into Cuba in a way that I don’t think the American people support.”
      — Mark Pocan [15:03]
  • Sanctions vs. People: Argues that U.S. claims to sanction the regime, not the people, are false—ordinary Cubans bear the brunt, while similar abuses by other governments rarely lead to such severe U.S. measures.
    • Quote:
      “We don’t blockade them as a nation. We don’t stop medicine from coming in.”
      — Mark Pocan [18:33]
  • Dissidents’ Voices: Includes statement by recently freed dissident Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara, emphasizing Cuban self-determination with outside support.
    • Quote:
      “Cuba’s future depends on us, the Cuban people.”
      — Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara [18:05]

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3. Israel/Palestine: Archaeology as a Frontline ([20:06–24:40])

• Contested Ruins as Flashpoint: A 3,000-year-old ruin in Sebastia, West Bank, becomes the latest battleground in land disputes, as Israeli projects threaten to sever Palestinian access for archaeological and agricultural purposes.
  • Palestinian Perspective:
    “It means that we are losing our heart by losing this area and not having access to our agricultural fields and our archaeological sites.”
    — Palestinian resident [21:18]
  • Israeli Policy: Israeli Heritage Ministry pushes for tourist site focused on Jewish heritage, arousing accusations of land grab and further shrinking Palestinian space.
    • Quote:
      “He doesn’t care about antiques, he wants to annex. It’s not about the site. It’s the ability to use the site as a weapon ...”
      — Alon Arad, Israeli archaeologist [23:25]
  • UNESCO Bid: Palestinians seek World Heritage designation to safeguard both the site and their economic/cultural connection.

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4. Literature & Urban Change: Colson Whitehead Interview ([24:44–32:22])

• Celebrating Harlem & 1980s New York: Discussion with Colson Whitehead about Cool Machine, his Harlem trilogy finale.
  • Thematic Depth: Trilogy evolves from character-driven to a sweeping panorama of New York across the 1960s–80s, exploring personal and social transformation.
    • Quote:
      “It becomes bigger than him, becomes the supporting cast, steps up—the city becomes the character, and we get this real sort of panorama of the city.”
      — Colson Whitehead [26:28]
  • City As Muse: Balancing nostalgia with honesty about crime, struggle, and resilience.
    • Quote:
      “It’s a valentine, but also with a body count ... I’m not shying away from how the city actually is. It’s beautiful and also tragic. It’ll chew you up, but also lift you up.”
      — Colson Whitehead [30:32]
  • Reflections on New York Today: Optimism mingles with realism about cycles of crisis and recovery.

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5. Ukraine’s Military Shakeup ([32:22–36:39])

• Leadership Change Amid War: President Zelenskyy fires army chief Oleksandr Syrskyi amid public unrest and high casualties.
  • Syrskyi Interview (Archive):
    • Prioritized rotations and mental health of soldiers despite resource shortages.
    • American weapons delays led to greater Ukrainian losses and decreased combat effectiveness.
      • Quote:
        “It leads to an increase in the level of losses ... because the highest value in the Ukrainian army is the life of a soldier.”
        — Oleksandr Syrskyi [35:54]

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6. History and Discovery: Pan Am Plane Crash ([36:39–38:59])

• Aviation Milestone: The 1952 Pan Am crash, which shaped modern air travel safety, is finally located after 74 years underwater, bringing closure to a pivotal tragedy.
  • Quote (Moment of Discovery):
    “Oh, my God. Is that a plane?”
    — Underwater Drone Operator [38:40]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “You, sir, are the failure, not the men and women who are on that front line.” — Pete Hegseth [03:30]
• “Somebody’s got to start thinking a lot deeper and wider than what we’re seeing now.” — Chuck Hagel [05:53]
• “We’re actually hurting the Cuban people. And that’s the real problem.” — Mark Pocan [13:56]
• “If I can depict it, you know, I’m doing my job.” — Colson Whitehead [30:32]

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Conclusion

This episode provides a candid examination of U.S. interventionist policies, their collateral costs, and how the absence of transparency and strategic clarity can compound global instability. Through incisive interviews and firsthand reports, it underscores the importance of accountability—at home and abroad—and attests to the far-reaching consequences for those caught in the crosshairs.

Transcript

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[Bianna Golodriga]

Hello and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week.

[Chuck Hagel]

You and others who call this a

[Mark Pocan]

quagmire and a failure.

[Chuck Hagel]

And then you want to turn around

[Bianna Golodriga]

and say you support the war.

[Pete Hegseth]

Father, I use the word failure to their leaders. You, sir, are the failure.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gets a grilling from the Senate, but there's no word on how the war with Iran will end. Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel tells me he's stunned by the lack of transparency. Then, as the US blockade chokes Cuba, US Congressman Mark Pocan tells me about dire straits facing the Cuban people and what a recent report signals about a American intentions for Havana.

[Mark Pocan]

I think this is Marco Rubio's personal South Florida pet project and he wants us to go into Cuba in a way that I don't think the American people support.

[Palestinian Resident]

And this is everything for us. I cannot imagine Sebastian without archaeological site. It's like your children. You cannot like leave one of them.

[Bianna Golodriga]

How a 3000 year old ruin has become the latest flashpoint between Israelis and Palestinians. We have a special report. Also on the program, the Pulitzer Prize winning author Colson Whitehead joins me as he concludes his epic Harlem trilogy. What it says about the gritty, decadent New York of the 1980s and now

[Colson Whitehead]

it'll chew you up, but also lift you up. And that churn, that energy of the city is what I love about it. And if I can depict it, you know, I'm doing my job.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Then Ukraine's military leadership gets a shake up amid nationwide protests. From the archives, Kristian's conversation with the commander who became became known as the Butcher Oleksandr Syrsky. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga, New York, sitting in for Christiane $37.5 billion and counting. That's the high price footed by American taxpayers for the war with Iran. And this week US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made clear that if Congress allows him, that's just the start. Requesting an additional $67 billion more without suggesting win or, or how the war could end. Something met with fury from Senate Democrats.

[Senator Questioning Hegseth]

Mr. Secretary, you stated four months ago that Iran's military had been rendered, quote, combat ineffective for years to come. Has Iran's military been for the last four months combat ineffective?

[Mark Pocan]

It's been set back not just years, but likely decades.

[Bianna Golodriga]

You stated we can't quote at the level. It doesn't mean it doesn't have capabilities.

[Senator Questioning Hegseth]

Mr. Secretary, you stated we had, quote, achieved every single objective.

[Pete Hegseth]

You, sir, are the failure, not the men and women who are on that front line. You, you don't have a strategy, you don't have a long term plan to actually win this war.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Of course, the price paid for the war is not just in dollars but in lives. Thousands of Iranians have been killed as well as more than a dozen American service members. Now President Trump is threatening further actions in areas like Pickaxe Mountain, where Israel believes Tehran has stored part of its enriched uranium stockpile and advanced enrichment centrifuges. I spoke about the waging of this war with former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, who railed against what he called a lack of transparency from the current administration.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Secretary Hagel, thanks so much for joining the program. Let's start in terms of where Iran views things diplomatically. They had an option, an opportunity really that many thought was the best opportunity they could have and perhaps a bad option that the United States laid out on the table for itself. And that was the 60 day MOU. Sanctions would be lifted, the strait would be be open, the war would end. Iran, despite having all of those opportunities, chose to once again break that MoU and attack ships going through the strait. So what does that tell you about where they are right now in terms of a diplomatic off ramp?

[Chuck Hagel]

Well, what we have produced in Iran today over the last more than four months is a regiment much more difficult to deal with, much more militant, less inclined to deal with us or to resolve these issues. And that's the reality and the consequence of the action that we started with not thinking through this. Actions have consequences, inactions have consequences. And I don't know what's going on strategically inside, but when the President said continue to attack them and go to war on the basis of retribution for them killing our soldiers, that's not the way to conduct the War, you got to go deeper than that. And I don't know if they're doing that. I don't know what they're doing diplomatically. That's the only way it's going to get resolved, or at least the beginning of resolution here is through that process. You've got two real estate people who are in charge of the diplomatic efforts. This is not a real estate deal. This is not a deal. And you can't conduct anything like this on a retribution basis. You hit us, we'll hit you more. And this goes on and on and on. Somebody's got to start thinking a lot deeper and wider than what we're seeing now.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

The US Focus is on keeping the Strait of War moves open. And that's where a number and the majority of these targets have been in attacking Iranian infrastructure. But we have seen attacks on critical civilian infrastructure as well. U.S. strikes hit Iranian water plants. Iran retaliated with strikes that damaged desalinization and power facilities in Kuwait and Bahrain as well. Does targeting basic water desalinization facilities, civilian facilities, or at least facilities that function perhaps in both ways, civilian and militarily,

[Bianna Golodriga]

does that get the United States to

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

a place where it has leverage here?

[Chuck Hagel]

No. And if for no other reason than what we're doing here, it's the same thing that Israel has been doing in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon is. You're creating generations of new terrorists. You're creating generations of new anti Americans. Look at what's happening with the Houthis in Yemen threatening to close down that waterway coming out of the Red Sea. I mean, this is what happens if you're not smart about this and where do you want to go and what do you want to accomplish? Five months ago, the Strait of Hormuz was open and we've made it worse. And so we've got to start thinking beyond just that. I mean, we hear a new explanation every day what this war was about. Well, it was supposedly first about Iranians not having nuclear capability and capacity. I mean, the Obama administration answered this thing and in 2015 had a very smart program planned that everybody was abiding by. And in fact, all the nations of the world, including Russia and China signed on to it. The United nations signed on to it. That's what we need to get back to, to resolve this. But I don't know if this, this president or this administration has capacity to do that. So this is going to go on.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Can Congress do more at this point? In terms of the questions you're asking right now, where is this war going where? Money going?

[Chuck Hagel]

Well, of course they can. They. They control the funding, the power of the purse. That. That's one of the constitutional requirements that the Congress has. And only Congress can appropriate money. That's number one also. Where's the Congress been on any kind of a vote? Are we in favor of this? Are we not in favor? What's going on? What do we know? What do we don't know? I mean, where the Congress has been has been, I mean, truly unbelievable to me. And it's let down the American public. Why did we start it? Where are we going? And the longer, as I've said, the longer you go with this, the deeper you get into this. And the Congress, again, is the one body that can stop it.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Do they have the backbone to do that?

[Chuck Hagel]

They have not had the backbone. They've got a constitutional responsibility. But even more basic than that, the Congress has a responsibility to the people of this country who fund the taxes, who fund those wars, and, and who have jurisdiction, literally over decisions made because we are a republic. When you send a senator or congressman to Washington, you send them because they are going to protect your interests. What are we doing? Maybe it's a just war. Maybe everything we're doing is just what? How do we know that there's been no transparency, Nobody from the administration. We hear the President every day, but everything he said is just basically not true. And then he changes his approach the next day. So the Congress has got a very, very significant responsibility here, and they've not fulfilled it.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Yeah, maybe this is a just war, but you're right, transparency is the name of the game here in terms of what Congress has owed the American taxpayers, and most importantly, those families of the 17 service members that have lost their lives since this war began.

[Chuck Hagel]

That's exactly right. The people who fight the wars, and I was in one of those wars in Vietnam in 1968. There was no transparency there either. And we lost almost 57,000 men and women in that war because no one had the courage on the political front in the Congress and the presidency to step forward and be honest about it.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Secretary Hagel, we really appreciate the time today. Thank you so much. Coming up, is Cuba the next country to face the might of the US Military? Congressman Mark Pocan thinks a new State Department report is a blueprint for invasion. He tells me why. And later in the program, the Pulitzer Prize winning author Colson Whitehead wraps up his Harlem trilogy with a tribute to the decadent and dangerous New York of the 1980s.

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[Bianna Golodriga]

Welcome back to the program. For six months, Cuba has been under a U. S. Imposed oil blockade, causing havoc and suffering that is only getting worse. Its national grid has collapsed multiple times with Cubans racing to charge their phones or pump water whenever the power comes on, even if it's in the middle of the night. And the Trump administration isn't letting up the pressure. This month, it leveled further sanctions on the country, this time targeting its tourism industry. In recent weeks, several Democratic lawmakers made the journey to the island and have denounced the suffering they saw. Among them was Congressman Mark Pocan. We spoke just as the State Department released a new report on Cuba. Welcome to the program.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Thanks for joining us. The State Department today calls Cuba the capital of 21st century communism, still exporting instability across the region. You walked the streets of the island. What did you see?

[Mark Pocan]

Yeah, so I saw that report. I have a copy of it with me by the State Department. Just came out yesterday. To call it fantastical would be probably the best definition. Look, I saw what the US Blockade is doing, and it's not just an oil blockade. It's a blockade of food goods, medicine. Even in war, we allow medicines and medical devices to travel It's a complete blockade. And it's really an involuntary global blockade because any country that does will face sanctions from the United States. So what we're doing is for 65 plus years, we've had some sort of blockade almost continuous on the Cuban people. But right now we've intensified it so that it's really a boot on the neck of the Cuban people. You know, their electric grid has failed multiple times for long periods of time. They can't get any medicine or parts for medical devices for their hospitals. They don't have food. They can't even have kids in school right now because of the power situation. And it's just something that we claim we're looking out for the Cuban people against the Cuban government. And instead, we're actually hurting the Cuban people. And that's the real problem.

[Bianna Golodriga]

What was the impetus for the trip?

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Have you been before? Did you decide to go following this blockade? And is this something that your constituents have prioritized?

[Mark Pocan]

Yeah, we have a sister city, Madison, Wisconsin, with Camague, Cuba. So it's something that people back home do care about. And I've been there 30 years ago, I've been there three and a half years ago, and then just again last week. And I can tell you the difference as I saw it. You know, with no fuel, not only did they go 42 hours without power, we had an hour and a half of power, and then it went back down again. But that means you also don't have garbage trucks to pick up garbage. It's literally piling up in the streets. We don't have, you know, they have one of the best medical systems, and they export doctors throughout Central and South America, and they can't do that. In fact, they have to. When the power goes out, surgeons use their phones, lights, to finish a surgery. This is all because of our blockade. It just doesn't make any sense. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. Here we are doing this when in reality, under Barack Obama, we opened up relations. Americans went to Cuba to vacation. They were thriving. And quite honestly, they loved America. And guess what? There was no ill towards our country by doing so. But this report by the State Department, I think, is setting up a military action. We're already in a quagmire in Iran, but I think this is Marco Rubio's personal South Florida pet project, and he wants us to go into Cuba in a way that I don't think the American people support.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And every administration that has imposed these

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

sanctions Say that they are sanctioning the regime, not the people. From what you've seen, from what you've heard, does that distinction hold?

[Mark Pocan]

No. I mean, again, it's fantastical. That's why if, you know, if you want a good read, you can't sleep, read the State Department report. It's pretty ridiculous. It's kind of like, you know, the excuse, the dog ate my homework. It's about as credible.

[Alon Arad]

Right.

[Mark Pocan]

The dog doesn't eat everyone's homework. And Cuba doesn't cause everything. In the US they literally are trying to blame Cuba for Black Lives Matter, for ICE protests, you name it. This is a small country that's very impoverished, that can barely do anything right now, given the blockade, and yet somehow they're still the mastermind. To me, that smells of a rat. Right? This doesn't pass the smell test. I think this is really being set up to do something. What we saw in Venezuela was partially directly related to Cuba. And, you know, I just think that the American government, unfortunately, is lying to the American people about Cuba. So not many visuals come out of Cuba, as you well know. So I think part of what we're trying to do when we go to a delegation like this, come back, speak the truth, and just make sure that we don't wind up in another potentially disastrous military intervention like we're right now in the middle of. In Iran.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

So many locked away in prisons there, not because the power is out, but because the regime doesn't allow for dissent. There are continued concerns over that very issue. Prominent dissident Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara has just arrived in the United States after years in prison. And here's what he.

[Luis Manuel Otero Alcantara]

For me, Cuba's future is the result of the work of many people over a long period of time. The fact that the US Government is supporting us right now is good, but it also remains in the hands of Cubans who have to rebuild and build everything that's needed. Cuba's future depends on us, the Cuban people.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Is Washington doing enough for dissidents like this man was and that are currently being jailed in Cuba?

[Mark Pocan]

Yeah. So they have released a lot of the prisoners. They say they're going to release some more as part of the conversations that we had, because it is of concern and should be. But of course, we know there are scores of countries that we also have concerns with on this front. But we don't blockade them as a nation. We don't stop medicine from coming in. We don't make it so that they're still CT scanners and their MRI machines don't work because they can't get parts from the United States. So I think whatever we're doing is we're handling the blockade as more than a hammer to the Cuban people. The way we support the Cuban people is allow the access of trade. If we believe in our system of government, which I do, then allow the free flow like we did under Barack Obama. And you'll see not only the US be able to take advantage of a neighbor 90 miles off our shore by vacationing and enjoying aspects of the country. You're going to see the country thrive and improve the relations. But you know, nothing happened bad to the United States during that period because so much of this is old Cold War arguments. In fact, about two thirds of this report is about the 60s and 70s, and all of a sudden they jump to today and say Cuba did it. It's so ridiculous. It's probably the dumbest report I've read in my 14 years of being here. And whoever wrote it should be embarrassed.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Keep us posted, Congressman, on your conversations there. We appreciate your time.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

We appreciate the effort.

[Mark Pocan]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Still to come, a fight over land and history. Why this ancient ruin has become a flashpoint in the territory dispute between Israelis and Palestinians. Jeremy Dimond has a report from the west bank after the break.

[Jeremy Dimon]

On this west bank hilltop, a battle over the past will shape the future, and archaeology is the weapon of choice.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Welcome back. In Israel, an agenda of expansion into Gaza and the west bank seems to be gathering apace. Ministers Itamar Ben GVIR and Bezalel Smotrich leading thousands of activists to the Gaza border, demanding to re establish settlements in the strip, many calling it a political stunt to win votes in the country's looming general election. Meantime, the Israeli government approving some $766 million to establish new Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank. Now the latest flashpoint in the land dispute between Israelis and Palestinians is a 3,000-year-old ruin. As CNN's Jeremy Dimon reports, on this

[Jeremy Dimon]

west bank hilltop, a battle over the past will shape the future, and archaeology is the weapon of choice.

[Palestinian Resident/Archaeologist]

So this is the line right here.

[Palestinian Resident]

Yeah, exactly the first line of these columns. It's in area C where it's Area C started.

[Palestinian Resident/Archaeologist]

And so what does that mean for Palestinians in this area?

[Palestinian Resident]

It means that we are losing our heart by losing this area and not having access to our agricultural fields and our archaeological sites.

[Jeremy Dimon]

Sebastia is an archaeological treasure, home to thousands of years of Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman history. It is now enmeshed in the fabric and economy of the Palestinian town of the same name, but risks being cut off from it.

[Palestinian Resident]

If we look to the examples we had already, maybe they will build a wall, who knows?

[Jeremy Dimon]

It is also home to ruins from the ancient Kingdom of Israel.

[Palestinian Resident/Archaeologist]

Archaeologists say these ruins date back to the 9th century B.C. part of the capital city of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. And now the current Israeli government wants to use these ruins as a justification for seizing hundreds of acres of land on an archaeological site that includes ruins from many other periods in history.

[Jeremy Dimon]

The goal? An Israeli tourist site with a focus on its Jewish heritage. The man behind that project is far right, Heritage Minister Amichael Yahoo, who has, among other things, said he would be open to nuking Gaza. He says Palestinians have failed to preserve the site and protect it from looters. In order to protect this site, why

[Palestinian Resident/Archaeologist]

is it necessary to expropriate privately held Palestinian lands?

[Jeremy Dimon]

But Palestinians say it's Israel standing in the way of efforts to rehabilitate these ruins.

[Palestinian Resident]

We tried to do rehabilitation, urgent and emergency rehabilitation. During the work, settlers, soldiers came. They stopped all the laborers.

[Alon Arad]

They keep on repeating this argument that the Palestinians are destroying archaeological remains, but they have not shown any data to support it.

[Jeremy Dimon]

Alon Arad leads a group of Israeli archaeologists fighting against what they say are the real intentions of this government and Eliyahu.

[Alon Arad]

He doesn't care about antiques, he wants to annex. It's not about the site. It's the ability to use the site as a weapon, as an instrument to take more land, to shrink this Palestinian space.

[Jeremy Dimon]

The Palestinian Authority, supported by archaeologists like Arad, has filed an emergency petition to designate Sebastia as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

[Palestinian Resident/Archaeologist]

It seems like ultimately you are trying to strengthen Israel's position on the ground in that territory.

[Jeremy Dimon]

Palestinians are also deeply rooted in this land. Like the olive trees Sebastian's families have cultivated amid the ruins for generations.

[Palestinian Resident]

This is everything for us. I cannot imagine Sebastiao without the archaeological site. It's like your children, you cannot like, leave one of them. This is the heart of people of Sebastia and Sebastian at the same time.

[Jeremy Dimon]

Jeremy Dimon, cnn, Sebastia, the West Bank.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Still to come, stolen goods, moral questions and nostalgia for 1980s New York. In Cool Machine, award winning author Colson Whitehead wraps up his celebrated Harlem trilogy with humor and irony.

[Colson Whitehead]

It's a valentine, but also with a body count. And so I'm not shying away.

[Bianna Golodriga]

I love that line.

[Colson Whitehead]

I'm not shying away from how the city actually is. It's beautiful and also tragic. It'll chew you up, but also lift you up.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Welcome back from the Underground Railroad to the Nickel Boys. Two time Pulitzer Prize winning author Colson Whitehead has established himself as one of the world's most original and thoughtful writers with his ability to subvert genre, examine America's past and present, and humanize the black experience. And now the conclusion of his celebrated Harlem trilogy has hit shelves to rave reviews. Aging protagonist and furniture salesman Ray Carney decides to run one last scam. Colson Whitehead sat down with me in New York to discuss how he uses fiction to explore the moral and political questions of our time. Colson Whitehead, welcome back to the program. I feel like we've been together through the inception of this trilogy here.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Christiane interviewed you after Harlem Shuffle. I interviewed you, interviewed you with Crook Manifesto. And now here we are with Cool Machine.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, the last one is done. I mean, if I had hobbies, I would do something else, but I just like working.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Well, it's understandable given the character here and Ray Carney in particular. What is it that three books can

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

tell about his storyline that one book couldn't?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, it becomes bigger than him, becomes the supporting cast, steps up the city, becomes the character, and we get this real sort of panorama of the city. And so over the 30 years of his life, we follow him in the 60s, 70s and 80s, we really get to see that evolution of his character and the other characters as well. And so it evolved in a very lovely way. It's been a challenging but also very fulfilling project.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Harlem itself is its own character through a number of generations here in the 60s, 70s, 80s. You were born in the 60s. I know you drew a lot of inspiration from research, but also your own parents just talk about you having to maybe reflect to your own childhood now in writing about what the 80s in New York was like.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I was born in 69. And so the last part of Crook manifesto, bicentennial year, 1976. I have vague memories. I'm definitely more connected to the 80s. That's when I came of age culturally. I give shout outs to various record stores and bars I used to go to when in college. And so it's less archaeology and more preserving in a more active way the New York of the 80s.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Carney really has achieved such a pinnacle professionally.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Here. He's a business owner now. Successful business owner, and yet still a master fence. He can't get the fence out of him. Why?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, he's settled his real business. He sells furniture, is going fine, wins awards. He wins awards. He's Northwest Regional dealer of the year. He's very proud of that. And his fencing sideline is sort of quiet and he keeps it up, but there's an emptiness. He's an empty nester. His kids have gone to college, his footsteps echo into brownstone. And so really this is a question about what's next. He's middle aged, he's achieved a certain amount of success. And now what?

[Bianna Golodriga]

You start the book with a vivid

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

description of New York in 1981. The pivot from the Bronx is burning in the 70s to Reagan 80s.

[Bianna Golodriga]

How am I doing?

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Ray Kotch?

[Bianna Golodriga]

And it actually reminded me a little

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

bit of the book Gods of New York from last year and sort of what New York was like at that time. Can you read a section of the book from that?

[Colson Whitehead]

New York City in 1981. The city that year was true to its personality as malformed across the centuries. A monstrous entity powered by innate miseries, operated by brute will and held together by pluck, fury and rebar. It had been flat broke and now clambered from the crater of debt one mucky handhold at a time. Crime and its ingenuity devised new permutations daily, making every citizen a victim or a witness.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

So how does that passage set up

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

the rest of the story?

[Colson Whitehead]

It's a time of survivors. You know, we're all sort of beaten up by circumstances and life sometimes. And we're clambering, you know, handhold by handhold, out of the pit. And so that's where we find Carney entering into this new stage.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

And one last heist as well for Carney at the Waldorf Astoria, of all places. What made you want to knock off one of the grandest hotels?

[Colson Whitehead]

The crimes in the first two books are very sort of low technology, very sweaty golf. They're hunched over the safe. And it's the last book. It's the 80s. And so I was talking to my friend and he said, you know, you gotta go big. And so the crimes are bigger. There's a bigger scale, bigger stakes. And I really wanted to, you know, wrapped up the story properly.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

They tend to call your Harlem books nostalgic. You tell it all, though. The rats, the sewers, the garbage, the crime.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

Is nostalgia the right word here?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Because on the one hand, it does

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

seem to be a love story story to a city that is like no other. But you don't hold back either.

[Colson Whitehead]

No, I'm trying to be truthful. It's a valentine, but also with a body count. And so I'm not shying away. I love that line, I'm not shying away from how the city actually is. It's beautiful and also tragic. It'll chew you up, but also lift you up. And that churn, that energy of the city is what I love about it. And if I can depict it, you know, I'm doing my job.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Let's talk about New York today. Is there optimism in the city? It sort of feels like we've had

[Bianna Golodriga]

the Knicks world champion.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yes.

[Bianna Golodriga]

We had a very successful World cup here.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

The final ending just across the river, a mayor who you supported.

[Bianna Golodriga]

How do you feel about New York today?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, yeah, it's weird to have a mayor who smiles, seems to like the city he's running. So that's, that's, that's, that's very, very new. I know that we go through these boom and bust periods and so there is a really positive vibe in the city right now. But in the back of my head I'm like, you're just waiting a couple years. But we bounce back. We always bounce back. When I was writing Crook Manifesto was during the pandemic and I couldn't leave the house. And I think writing that book saved me. And I was thinking about the 70s when the city was also in crisis and artists were working. It was the birth of punk and disco and hip hop. So even when the city goes to these terrible moments, you know, we're working to pull it, to pull it out. And so I have faith. But also I realize that, you know, things can go south at any moment.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Well, keep writing. Keep writing.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

It makes us happy to read your work. It's summer calling this a book of the year. So congratulations. It has been quite a journey to follow you and to follow Ray Carney and his story as well.

[Colson Whitehead]

It's been a lot of fun.

[Interviewer with Colson Whitehead]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And Cool Machine, the third and final novel in Colson Whitehead's Harlem series, is out now. Coming up, Ukraine's military shakeup as Zelenskyy replaces his top general. We look back at Christian's conversation with then commander in chief of the armed forces Oleksandr Syria Zelerski about life on the front lines. Welcome back to the program. This week, a shakeup at the highest levels of Ukraine's military has rocked the nation. President Zelenskyy firing his army's commander in chief Oleksandr Syrskyi after nationwide protests over the sacking of the popular defense minister just one week before Syrsky, dubbed the Butcher, has long been criticized for toler high casualties in the war. He's been replaced by Mykhailo Drapati, a younger, more popular general. In 2024, Kristian secured a rare exclusive interview with General Syrski just after he took over as head of the armed forces. They spoke in an undisclosed location near the front lines. Here's some of what he told her.

[Kristian (CNN Reporter)]

You, as commander, do you go to the front lines? Do you go to the trenches? Do you talk to soldiers there and commanders? What do they say to you? Because I know some of them have been there for, you know, more than two years. They barely get rotation. They don't get to see their family. They're these glide bombs, these terrifying things that. And the drones. And there's just so much. I mean, it's almost. It's Almost World War I kind of, you know, attacks on them in the trenches. And they're there for a long time with no real hope of rotation. What do they say to you when you go to see them and talk to them?

[Oleksandr Syrskyi]

We speak the same language. We understand each other. No matter who I am talking to, whether it is an ordinary soldier, a rifleman for example, or a brigade commander or a battalion commander, you know that I have been in this war since 2014, since the beginning of the full scale aggression. I have been participating in combat operations as the commander of the operational and strategic group. Now I am the commander in chief of the armed forces of Ukraine. That is the front line, is my life. We understand each other. I know all the problems that our servicemen, soldiers and officers experience. Despite the difficult situation, we continue to carry out rotations. We didn't stop this process even when Avdiivka was happening, when there were perhaps more difficult times. The issue of rotations remains a priority for us. Of course, people get exhausted and need rest. That is why the units are either withdrawn to the rear for rest or sent to training centers where they spend a month or a month and a half recuperating. In this way, people restore their combat capabilities, their moral and mental state, and get the opportunity to visit their families and friends.

[Kristian (CNN Reporter)]

You became the overall commander at about the time that the US Congress finally approved the tranche of weapons and help that they had promised you. It was a delay of six to seven months. What material difference did that make to your fight? The fact that these weapons were delayed for so long?

[Oleksandr Syrskyi]

Of course, this has had a negative impact when there is nothing to shoot with no one and nothing to hold back the enemy. First of all, it leads to an increase in the level of losses, an increase in our losses. Not only in material resources, but also in human resources, because the highest value in the Ukrainian army is the life of a soldier. It is very painful for us, and of course, it is painful to see that the losses of soldiers are increasing. Well, the effectiveness of the use of troops is also extremely reduced because when you have nothing to shoot with, you cannot hit the enemy efficiently and effectively, and this leads to the loss of territory. So how can this affect us? Of course, negatively.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Syrsky sacking comes at a critical time for Ukraine's war effort as they look to shore up desperately needed military aid and relief. U.S. senators are urging Congress to pass their bipartisan Russia sanctions bill in honor of one of its main sponsors, the late senator and longtime Kyiv supporter Lindsey Graham. This as the Senate also looks at a $1.3 billion security assistance package for Ukraine. When we come back, the Pan Am plane crash that transformed how we all fly and how it was found after 74 years lost at sea. That's. And finally, it was the Pan Am flight that ended in tragedy, transforming the way we fly before disappearing into history. In 1952, the aircraft known as the Clipper Endeavour crashed shortly after taking off from Puerto Rico. Despite the fact that all of its passengers survived the initial impact, only 17 people of the 69 on board were rescued. The tragedy spurred change, and safety briefings which could have changed the fate of the lost passengers are now something we take for granted in air travel. If a change in pressurization occurs, oxygen masks will automatically drop from the small compartment above your seat. But the plane which triggered it all vanished beneath the waves, becoming a hidden tomb. 74 years later, it's been found. The Air Sea Heritage foundation, the Discovery Channel, and others finding the aircraft at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean off Puerto Rico's northern coast, thanks to underwater drones. Here's that moment of discovery.

[Bianna Golodriga (Interviewer)]

I mean, that could be the tail. Like, it's. It's sort of.

[Mark Pocan]

Hey, wait, if it's a tail, where's the plane?

[Pete Hegseth]

Is this collapsed? Is this inverted?

[Underwater Drone Operator]

Well, I don't know what else is. What else is around it?

[Pete Hegseth]

Stop.

[Underwater Drone Operator]

Oh, my God. Is that a plane?

[Colson Whitehead]

It's got to be.

[Pete Hegseth]

No.

[Underwater Drone Operator]

Is that a plane?

[Bianna Golodriga]

Oh, my God. That could be an engine.

[Underwater Drone Operator]

That could be an engine. That looks like a wing.

[Bianna Golodriga]

And the nose.

[Claire Duffy]

Look at the shape.

[Underwater Drone Operator]

And that looks like a fuselage. I mean, that other wing isn't there, but that could be a plane. That's a plane. I think there's a really good chance that's a plane.

[Bianna Golodriga]

Just incredible. Well, that's all we have time for don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Bianna Golodriga, New York. Thanks so much for watching. Christian will be back next week.

[CNN Sports Announcer]

Go inside the sports moments that brought us together and made history. From the underdogs to the rivalries and the miracles. The new CNN original series, decades in Sports Watch back to Back premieres August 2nd on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.