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- [00:00]
Bianna Golodriga
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- [01:16]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic Church, is dead. We'll get the latest from Vatican City and reflections from Cardinal Blaise Cupich of Chicago, who will be one of the few, few people to choose the next pope. Then, insight from a reporter who interviewed Francis and was knighted by him. Plus, religious scholar David Gibson joins me on Pope Francis, moral authority in a world of strongmen. And we look back at Christiane's conversation with filmmaker Wim Winders about his revealing portrait of the pope as you've never seen him before. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. Pope Francis, a voice for the poor and a catalyst for change as the head of the Catholic Church has died, the Vatican announced. The pope passed away on Easter Monday, the morning after the holiest day in the Christian year. At 88 years old, Francis was battling poor health in recent weeks, yet managed to make a public appearance on Eastern Sunday, where he delighted crowds at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.
- [02:41]
Ben Wiedemann
Cari Fratelli Esrelli, Buona Pasqua.
- [02:48]
Christiane Amanpour
Dear brothers and sisters, happy Easter. Too sick to read his full speech, an aide delivered it for him. And in his final message to the public, the pope called for compassion for migrants and for the end to the wars in Ukraine, Gaza and Sudan. Francis will be buried sometime later this week. And then a conclave will begin to choose the next leader of the Catholic Church. Cardinal Blaise Cupich of Chicago will be at the funeral and will also take part in the conclave. And he's joining the program live. Cardinal Cupich, thank you so much for joining us today. Your thoughts, your reflections on the passing of Pope Francis.
- [03:33]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, Bianna, first of all, thank you for having me this morning. When I heard the news, I have to say that I was stunned and saddened. But as I reflect on his life and ministry, especially these last years in which he served as the successor of Peter, I come away with a great sense of gratitude that I got to be a part of it and live in a time in which he was pope. And he energized the church to move forward. He gave us a more expansive view of what we could be, especially as he called us, to be a field hospital in the world to reach out to people who were suffering, but also reminded us that the name of God is mercy. So from my standpoint, I just have to look back on these years with a great sense of gratitude that I lived in a time in which he.
- [04:26]
Christiane Amanpour
Was a pope and he was a first in so many regards, the first pope from Latin America, the first pope in nearly 600 years to take over after a retirement of his predecessor, and the first pope to take on the name of Saint Francis of Assisi, the 13th century saint of the poor. So in taking that name, I'm just curious, Cardinal, for you, was that an indication of what his focus, of what his priorities would be as pope?
- [05:00]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, he mentioned that he took that name after one of the cardinals during the conclave after he was elected said, don't forget about the poor. And that stuck with him to the point where it moved and prompted him to choose the name of Francis, who in fact, was always known in Italian as the poverello, the little poor one who associated with those who were lowly, even though he himself came from some wealth and prominence in his city of Assisi.
- [05:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And as sick as he was, and we, of course, had covered his stay at the hospital and not knowing whether or not he would actually be discharged earlier this year from the hospital having such a lengthy stay, the fact that he made it to deliver that speech on Easter Sunday yesterday to address the masses, he was weak, but he was strong in spirit there for all of those worshipers to see. Just talk about what that says to you, to us, to Catholics around the world, about his conviction, to his faith.
- [06:12]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, I think that, yes, his message was very important, and it was important for him to raise his voice on behalf of people who are suffering from wars and poverty, also who are trying to find a better life as they migrate. But the other thing that we saw this Easter Day was not just the words, hearing the words that he gave us, but how he accompanied people even to the last, where he wanted to have a ride down the Via Conciliazione in the Vatican Square there to be with people. He wanted them to know that he was with them. He was a fellow pilgrim with them. And I think that also says much about his legacy. He wanted to accompany people, and he told us to accompany one another because we're all fellow pilgrims.
- [07:02]
Christiane Amanpour
And he took over at a time when there was great internal strife and division within the church and in the secular world as well. We are just hours after his passing. I'm curious to get your thoughts on his contribution to be more inclusive, to work on some of the issues that drove the biggest criticism within the church and from outside as well.
- [07:31]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
He had the vision of the Second Vatican Council, and that is what, for me, drew me in a very close relationship with him, because I shared that aspiration as well. And the council wanted to make sure that we listened to the joys and the hopes, the griefs and anxieties of people in this age, and we walk with them. But also he gave us an understanding that we have to make sure that people who are suffering have a voice in the world today and are not marginalized. And so, time and again, he reminded us of that. And even though there is division in the world and even in the church, he told us that time and again that the Lord prayed for unity within the human family before he died. And that is something that we should promote.
- [08:24]
Christiane Amanpour
Migration and the plight of migrants was near and dear to him throughout his time as pope and even for the decades, as we know before as cardinal, he was a child of migrants, of immigrants, of leaving fleeing Fascist Italy for Argentina and a visit to the White House under President Obama. Pope Francis said, as a son of an immigrant family, I am happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families. Migration is such a hot button issue here in the United States, around the world, and it's something that he tackled head on, even when he knew that it could lead to confrontation to some of the world's most powerful leaders. What does that say about his conviction?
- [09:14]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, I think that when he spoke to the joint session of Congress, first time that a pope has ever done that, he raised that issue. And he reminded us Americans point blank that we should be on the side of migrants and immigrants because we all are migrants and immigrants here and the fruit of those who came across to be in this country. So I think that he just asked us to be honest with ourselves and authentic, not to forget our heritage, not to forget our roots. And that was so very important for him. He wanted to make sure that we lived authentic lives and not gloss over the difficulties that people are suffering or maybe distance ourselves from those difficulties.
- [10:00]
Christiane Amanpour
And it's safe to say he spoke out when he disagreed with world leaders, including the presidents of the United States, specifically President Trump in his first administration interim. And it appears that he carried that conviction into his second as well. I want to remind our viewers that in 2016 he traveled to the U. S. Mexico border calling for compassion and, quote, to aid those who sought to build only walls and not bridges and that those people were not Christian. And then there was some back and forth tweets exchanged from the President of the United States. And as you know now, shortly after his inauguration, Vice President J.D. vance, who has taken on the Catholic faith in recent years, suggested that Pope Francis was the one who had his priorities all wrong. Here's what he as an American leader.
- [10:54]
Bianna Golodriga
But also just as an American citizen, your compassion belongs first to your fellow citizens. It doesn't mean you hate people from.
- [11:03]
Christiane Amanpour
Outside of your own borders.
- [11:04]
Bianna Golodriga
But there's this old school, and I.
- [11:06]
Christiane Amanpour
Think it's a very Christian concept, by.
- [11:08]
Bianna Golodriga
The way, that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and.
- [11:11]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Then you love your community, and then.
- [11:13]
Bianna Golodriga
You love your fellow citizens in your own country. And then after that, you can focus.
- [11:19]
Christiane Amanpour
And prioritize the rest of the world. And we should note the vice President was very gracious following his meeting yesterday with Pope Francis at the Vatican and offered his words of condolences after on news of his passing. But I'm just wondering, given what you heard there from the vice president, how do you think the Pope would have responded to that?
- [11:45]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, I think that he has always talked about the fact that love is not a zero sum game where we run out of the ability to love. And the story of the Good Samaritan is, I think, our point of reference, that you love the person who's in need. It's kind of much like what my mother said. She was asked a number of years ago, she raised nine children and she said, do you love any of your children more than others? And she said, only if they need it. And so the Good Samaritan Story is in fact about a person in need, wasn't a family member. And so love is something that has to be shown, first of all, to those who are in need. And it's not something by which we can exhaust. It's a virtue that is given to us to love everybody.
- [12:33]
Christiane Amanpour
You'll recall just months after his election back in 2013, he shocked the world by stating something that was viewed as so revolutionary. And he said the church must welcome the LGBTQ community and said, quote, if a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge? And from there you saw criticism from some of the conservative sections of the church. I'm sorry, excuse me for a second. From some of the conservative sections of the church. And that would ultimately lead to criticism from the left and liberals who thought he didn't do enough. Do you think he managed to walk a fine balance ultimately, looking back at his legacy?
- [13:20]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
I don't think he was necessarily looking for walking a balance. He just wanted to speak the gospel truth. We've always believed that the Lord doesn't exclude anyone and it is not something for us to judge another person. Jesus time and again tells his disciples not to judge. So I think that it's a matter not of trying to balance things, but of being faithful to the gospel.
- [13:45]
Christiane Amanpour
I was listening to one eulogy and I'm curious to get your reflection on this interpretation. He refused to defend doctrine for doctrine's sake. He was opposed to euthanasia, abortion and same sex marriage. But he wanted to leave open space for understanding and left open the door for people who are divorced and remarried to take communion in church. Is that a parent?
- [14:09]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, I would say that the Holy Father. No, I would say this, that the Holy Father always stayed close to what the church teaches. But what he did say was that people come at the truth at different paces and God's grace works in their lives in different ways and that we have to in some way be patient with that, but also respectful of the place of God in the lives of people and not to substitute for God. He said we have to form consciences, but we cannot dominate them, we cannot replace them. And I think that that's where he was coming from.
- [14:48]
Christiane Amanpour
Can you talk about his humility and the fact that how he lived as a cardinal, how he lived as a young man, he carried that with him into the Vatican. He refused to live in the 12 room Vatican apartment put aside specifically for the Pope. And ultimate lived in a two room hostel. He dined in the dining room with everyone else. He Paid his own checks at times. That humility, what is the legacy of that that he leaves behind?
- [15:22]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, I think his humility was tied to the fact that he was a real human being. He was very tied to his relationships with other people. Not being haughty. You know, people don't know this, but with the staff there at the Santa Marta where he lived, he regularly dined with the staff, sometimes once a week, because he wanted to get to know the people there. He wanted to be a pastor to them. He didn't like pretense. And he was an individual who really, in a very human way, lived out an authentic life.
- [15:59]
Christiane Amanpour
And he's someone very few people can say you knew so well and for so many years. As you said, he was human. And you hear stories about his sense of humor, his passions, his interests. Are there any personal anecdotes that you can share with us, some reflections on your own exchanges?
- [16:22]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Well, he was an individual who always put people at ease with his humor. But he was also, he could be very serious, but he wouldn't take himself seriously. And I think that that is a trait of an individual who first of all realized that people might not at first feel comfortable in his presence. And he wanted to relate to them, but also he wanted to take up issues that were very important, and he wanted people to shoot straight with them. I think time and again, he always wanted to know what was going on, and he looked for other ways in which he could find out information.
- [17:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, I know you are headed to Rome soon for his funeral and obviously the conclave that follows. Cardinal Blaise Cupich, thank you so much for your reflections, for your words, for your thoughts. We appreciate it.
- [17:15]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Thank you again for having me and for covering this very important story. We lost a real giant here, a great man, but we should be grateful that he passed our. He crossed our paths, indeed.
- [17:29]
Christiane Amanpour
Well spoken, Cardinal. Thank you so much. Well, now let's get to the Vatican City and to Ben Wideemann. Ben, you've been reporting there all day. Just give us a sense of what you've heard from the crowds that have gathered to celebrate Easter to have just, you know, less than 24 hours ago, had actually had a chance to see the Pope and now are reacting to news of his passing.
- [17:53]
Ben Wiedemann
Yes, Bian, a lot of the people who are here were here yesterday when the Pope appeared on the balcony, said a few words, a statement by him was read out to the crowd, and then he went around to St Peter's Square in the Pope Mobile without, of course, the bulletproof glass that had been the trouble tradition since the early 1980s after Pope John Paul II was the subject of an assassination attempt. So they saw. They saw him yesterday, today, this morning at 7:35 local time, a.m. according to the Vatican, he passed away. So people are really shocked. I mean, shocked in the sense that they saw him yesterday, today. He is dead now, of course, he was between February and March in Rome's gemelli Hospital for 38 days. According to the doctors who were treating him, he almost died twice from double pneumonia during that period. But it was thought two weeks ago when I was there at the hospital and saw him briefly come out onto the balcony and then drive away in a Fiat Cinquecento, it was thought that he was on the bend. In fact, the doctors at the time had told him for the next two months, please rest. But what we saw yesterday was perhaps his most active public day. In addition to his appearance in St. Peter's Square, he did have that brief meeting beforehand with U.S. vice President J.D. vance. So I think the people are shocked. There was a hope that he was perhaps, despite his advanced age, 88 years and his medical condition, that he might actually come back. But such was not the case.
- [19:41]
Christiane Amanpour
No, it was not. And Ben, we know the Vatican said that he passed away in his apartment. As you noted, he had been ailing for quite a long period of time. Has there been an official cause of death released by the Vatican yet?
- [19:58]
Ben Wiedemann
No. We understand from the Vatican press office that they are hoping this evening to be able to announce the official cause of death. In fact, in approximately 45 minutes, according to the Vatican press office, there will be a ceremony in the chapel of Casa Santa Marta, that hostel, that guest house where Pope Francis was staying, where the chief medical officer of the Vatican will examine the body, tried to determine and try to determine the cause of death. But certainly he had many problems. In addition to suffering from double pneumonia, he did have persistent respiratory problems in recent years, sciatica, mobility problems. Several years ago, he had abdominal surgery as well. So certainly the fact that a man at his advanced age and medical condition, not particularly surprising that he did pass away. It's just the fact that he was in the square behind me yesterday and today dead was a shock for many.
- [21:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, indeed. Just the symbolism of having been there and making the effort to address the crowd there on the holiest of days on the Christian calendar, just yesterday. So we know the Pope will lie in State for in St. Peter's Basilica for several days now, cardinals will be deciding how long, anywhere between five to seven days. And then what happens after that?
- [21:32]
Ben Wiedemann
Well, then there will be a period of nine days of prayer and services commemorating his life during that time, if they haven't arrived already. There's Approximately more than 250 cardinals who are supposed to attend the funeral and then participate in the conclave should have arrived in Rome because according to sort of the new schedule worked out by Pope Francis, within 15 to 20 days of the death of the pope, the conclave should be held and it should go on no longer than 13 days for those cardinals to elect a pope successful Pope Francis.
- [22:13]
Christiane Amanpour
And you were there. And you were there in 2013. I saw the footage when Pope Francis was elected and named pope. And you turned to your producer saying who? Who? And now we look at the lasting impact and legacy he has had all these years, now serving as pope on the church and the world. And you will be there for us when we have his successor named as well. Ben Wiedemann, thank you so much. And we'll have more breaking news coverage of the life and death of Pope Francis after a break. Attention all small biz owners at the UPS Store. You can count on us to handle your packages with care with our certified packing experts. Your packages are properly packed and protected and with our pack and ship guarantee. When we pack it and ship you, we guarantee it because your items arrive safe or you'll be reimbursed. Visit theupsstore.com guaranty for full details. Most locations are independently owned. Product services pricing and hours of operation may vary. See center for details. The UPS Store Be unstoppable. Come into your local store today. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, how to choose the right vpn, whether to trust public WI fi, what to do with those annoying cookie pop ups and more. To help me answer these rapid fire question, I've invited Rachel Toback back to the show. You may remember her from our episode about setting and managing your passwords. Rachel is an ethical hacker and the CEO of Social Proof Security where she helps people and companies keep their data Safe. Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy, wherever you get your podcasts. And now from a working class neighborhood in Buenos from Bucares to the top of Vatican City, Pope Francis life journey was a remarkable one. Christopher Lamb has this deeper look.
- [24:20]
David Gibson
Buena sera.
- [24:21]
Christopher Lamb
A simple good evening from the newly elected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina, the first pope ever from the Americas. His choice of the name Francis after the saint known for his poverty and love of Nature had never been used before by a Pope set the tone for a pontificate marked by attention to the poor and a simple way of life. This pope's home would no longer be the historic apartments, but a simple set of rooms in a guest house on the Vatican grounds. Elaborate papal robes and jewellery remained in the closet as Francis wore only his white cassock, black orthopedic shoes with a simple pectoral cross. And when he needed his glasses fixed, he hopped in a car and went himself to the optician in Rome. A down to earth style learned on the streets at Buenos Aires. The one time nightclub bouncer took public transportation and always remained a fan of Argentina's San Lorenzo soccer team. His simple words too had a way of getting to the heart of divisive issues.
- [25:26]
Ben Wiedemann
Si una Persona gay e cigiore.
- [25:31]
Bianna Golodriga
If a person is gay and accepts.
- [25:32]
Christopher Lamb
The Lord and has goodwill well, who.
- [25:34]
Bianna Golodriga
Am I to judge?
- [25:36]
Christopher Lamb
It didn't change the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage, but convinced many that he was a Pope open to change. He was a champion of the environment, issuing an encyclical, the highest papal teaching document, to warn of the dangers of global warming and a throwaway consumer culture in the west that damages our climate and the livelihood of the poor. The misuse and destruction of the environment are also accompanied by a relentless process of exclusion. In effect, a selfish and boundless thirst for power and material prosperity leads both to the misuse of available natural resources and to the exclusion of the weak. He drove home the point, traveling to the United States, home of gas guzzling SUVs in a tiny theatre equally at home with the poor and powerful. On the lawn of the White House, he made a plea for immigrants.
- [26:34]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
As the son of an immigrant family.
- [26:39]
Bianna Golodriga
I'm happy to be a guest in this country which was largely built by such families.
- [26:50]
Christopher Lamb
And at a time marked by a dramatic refugee crisis in Europe, Francis tirelessly called on governments and people to not close their eyes or their borders. And he walked his Talk bringing back 12 Syrian refugees on his plane following a trip to the Greek island of Lesbos. In the difficult terrain of the Holy Land, Pope Francis prayed at the wall dividing Palestinian west bank from Jerusalem and embraced his Jewish friends in front of the Wailing Wall. The Pope focused much of his attention to those on the peripheries, as he called it. The outsiders excluded from society, the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the.
- [27:31]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Sick, those in prison.
- [27:34]
Christopher Lamb
He sought to support the churches on those peripheries and far from Rome, the longest foreign trip of his Pontificate saw him travel across South Africa, Asia and the Pacific, highlighting the importance of this region for the future of the Catholic Church. Going to those on the margins was something Francis himself practiced during many moments of his pontificate. Embracing the disabled, washing the feet of prisoners, installing shower rooms for the homeless around the Vatican.
- [28:02]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
One of his characteristics, a characteristic of.
- [28:05]
Christopher Lamb
His entire life, was humility, a humility that attracted the world. With politicians and stars lining up to meet him at the Vatican, he was not so popular at times. Inside the Vatican and among powerful Catholic groups in the United States, there was a backlash from conservatives upset about his insistence that church teaching must develop, along with his biting critiques of clerical culture. His financial reforms, seeking greater transparency faced significant difficulties. And the scandal of sex abuse continuing to be the Catholic Church's biggest struggle. In the case of Chile, Francis admitted in a letter that he too was part of the problem when every bishop in the country offered to resign in the wake of sexual abuse scandals there. Also accused of being part of the problem by his ex ambassador to the United States, who claimed he told Francis about sexual abuse allegations against former Washington D.C. cardinal Theodore McCarrick five years before. And Francis allowed him to continue serving. I will not say one more word on this. Francis eventually defrocked the US Cardinal and held an unprecedented global meeting of bishops to address the issue. A Vatican investigation later called into question the claims made by the former ambassador, who was then barred from receiving Communion and put into exile by the church after he rejected the authority of the Pope and some key Catholic teachings. Nevertheless, questions remained about Francis handling of the abuse crisis.
- [29:37]
Ben Wiedemann
There is no doubt that the child.
- [29:38]
David Gibson
Sexual abuse scandals are the central stain on his legacy.
- [29:42]
Christiane Amanpour
I mean, over and over again, Pope Francis said the right things.
- [29:45]
Bianna Golodriga
He met with victims.
- [29:47]
Christiane Amanpour
He expressed heartfelt sorrow.
- [29:49]
Bianna Golodriga
He expressed resolve to get this right. But you know, most critics, many victims would say that that wasn't matched with.
- [29:55]
David Gibson
A policy follow through.
- [29:57]
Christopher Lamb
When the coronavirus pandemic hit in 2020, the image of the Pope blessing the world from an empty St. Peter's Square became a symbol for that desolate time. Francis urged nations to share their vaccines with poorer countries and vaccinated hundreds of homeless and underprivileged at the Vatican. The following year, during an historic trip to Iraq, the first pope ever to visit the country, Francis stood on top of the rubble in mosque, once an ISIS stronghold, and furthered his outreach to the Muslim world by an unprecedented meeting with top Shia Muslim cleric, the reclusive Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani. From the Beginning of the war In Ukraine in 2022, France was an outspoken advocate for peace. He avoided outright condemnation of Vladimir Putin, but publicly appealed to the Russian president, begging him to stop for the love of his people, the pope said. Francis spoke several times by phone with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy during 2022, asking him to be open to serious peace proposals before the pair met face to face at the Vatican in May of 2023 and October 2024. He made similar appeals for peace during the conflict in the Middle east, saying that the Israel Hamas war had descended into terrorism. He insisted that war is always a defeat and said self defense that is not proportional is immoral. France's most important message was one of fraternity, that we are all brothers and sisters, despite our differences. Take care of the earth and each other, he said, and don't forget to pray for me.
- [31:33]
Christiane Amanpour
Christopher Lamb reporting there. Let's turn now to Philip Pulilla. He was the first American journalist to interview a pope and was knighted by Francis in 2021. Welcome to the program, Philip. We know that Francis inherited a deeply divided church in 2013 and was facing a number of scandals from within. Your reflections on how he left the church today?
- [32:00]
Bianna Golodriga
Well, this church is now very similar to American society in the sense that it is polarized. It is polarized between conservatives and progressives. And we are constantly told those by the Vatican, don't use those words. But it's very difficult not to break it down into that, into those two categories. The church is very polarized, which is why the election of the next pope is going to be incredibly interesting, to say the least, as the cardinals decide whether they want to, as I like to put it, move the pendulum a little bit back towards the center or continue with some of the policies that Pope Francis encouraged from the beginning of his pontificate in 2013. And that will be the key question that faces the cardinals who come to elect him in the next few days and during the conclave that follows after the funeral.
- [33:04]
Christiane Amanpour
And he, as we noted in our previous segment, encouraged some of these, at the time, more radical, more progressive policies, but didn't necessarily enact them. And for example, the openness to civil unions. Same sex couples has met with LGBTQ families, but same sex relationships are still considered, quote, intrinsically disordered. And the Vatican just a few years ago once again reaffirmed that it couldn't bless same sex unions. Why do you think he didn't go a step further other than the legacy and the fact that he was the first to acknowledge that if they are good people and if there are LGBTQ members who are members of the community, they should be acknowledged.
- [33:57]
Bianna Golodriga
Yes, as you said, that he did come out in defense of LGBTQ members, but he did not change any church teaching on homosexual relations. In other words, so essentially, the Church teaches that homosexual attraction is not a sin, homosexual activity is a sin. He never went down the path of changing that. Why? One of the reasons that he may have decided to sort of hold back is that on that issue and that also on the issue of female priesthood, it was incredibly divisive in the Anglican Church. And it really did split the Anglican Church. And this Pope, but also popes before him, John Paul and Benedict, looked at what happened with the Anglican Church agreeing on the ordination of women, agreeing on gay issues, etc. And what happened, it completely divided. Now, when the Pope recently, the Pope's theological chief, when he spoke about blessing same sex couples, not as a kind of a wedding, but as a sort of just giving them a blessing, not individual as blessing the their activity, but the love that they have for each other, it caused enormous problems for African bishops where, as you know, homosexuality in Africa can also lead to the death penalty. People have been killed because they are gay in some African countries. And the African bishops were thrown into great difficulty with these statements. Now, that is a very divisive issue. And I think it's just not Francis, but also Benedict and John Paul before him, seeing what happened in the Anglican Church, did not want the same thing, the kind of breakup that happened in the Anglican Church.
- [35:59]
Christiane Amanpour
And so perhaps the incremental approach was a strategic one on his part when talking about his successors, he appointed about 80% of the cardinals who will be making that decision. What is the likelihood then that his successor will carry on some of his policies, some of his priorities in their patients?
- [36:23]
Bianna Golodriga
Yes. Now, as you said, he's. I believe the specific numbers in there is 135 cardinal electors, that is, that are under the age of 80. And so they will be able to go into a conclave to elect Francis successor. Of those 135, I'm not mistaken, 108 or 109 were actually appointed by Francis. The others were appointed a handful, about a dozen by Benedict and only five by Pope John Paul. So one would think that the next pope would logically continue in that direction, but that is not necessarily the case. Also, specifically, also because of what we were talking about before, about the polarized state of the church, that possibly someone who brings the pendulum a little bit back towards the middle might be a better candidate in the eyes of the cardinal electors. Another thing to keep in mind, and this is really important, is that under Francis, the cardinals around the world had fewer opportunities to get to know each other personally. There were meetings under previous popes, there were regular meetings and the cardinals, all the cardinals would come to Rome and have, and get to know each other. They didn't take place as much under Francis papacy. And so they really don't know each other. So the general congregation, many of them don't know each other. The general congregations that will begin these meetings before the conclave will be an opportunity for some of these cardinals to get to know each other for the first time because they haven't actually visited each other's countries, which is why one of the leading candidates is Cardinal Pietro Paladin, who is the Vatican Secretary of State. He has traveled the world over and everybody knows him. He also knows that he will, you know, it's a steady pair of hands and may get liberal votes as well as conservative votes, whereas other cardinal candidates, populi as they're known, may not get both the votes from conservatives as well as progressives.
- [38:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And they need a 2/3 majority to elect the next pope as well. And as we know that, that could take days for them to come to that consensus. And can I get you to reflect in these final moments we have together on your own personal interaction and memories with the Pope, having interviewed him, I believe twice?
- [38:55]
Bianna Golodriga
Yes, yes, that's correct. Yes. I've covered three popes, John Paul, Benedict and Francis. And I was clearly closest to him. I don't know, we just kind of hit it off, I guess, on the plane. I would ask him certain questions and then he liked to joke and he liked to laugh. And I'd done so many trips with popes that when the Pope comes to back section where the press is, you kind of like don't know what to say anymore. You know, you're a known entity and whatever. And so I always sort of like try and say something funny and you know, and he, and he liked to laugh. And then I asked him through an intermediary for the interview, etc. And it took place in 2018. Now it will sound very, very odd, but, but we were alone in a room for two hours. There were no handlers, no minders, no press people, no nobody. It was just the two of us for two hours. And he went off the record with stuff that I will never be able to use because it was off the record. So he felt very comfortable with Me. And I felt very comfortable with him. But he didn't get a free ride in my coverage and neither did the Vatican in general. And the second time, when I asked him for another interview, I was able to get him a message through a trusted source. He called me on my cell phone after about four or five days, and I said, I got you. He said, I got your note.
- [40:21]
Christopher Lamb
And.
- [40:21]
Bianna Golodriga
Yeah, and he said, let's do it in July, etc. And he handled the whole thing by himself. And I was kind of put in a difficult situation because for many, for a couple of weeks between the time he said yes and the time the interview took place, he didn't tell anybody, not the entire communications apparatus, until I then told a couple people that I didn't want to feel burned and, you know, swore them to secrecy. But that is the way. That is the way he. He operated. He would call people directly if he liked you, he really liked you, and return your calls or return your messages in my case. So it was quite amazing. Have a very personal relationship with him in that sense. He felt comfortable with me for one reason or another, perhaps because I'm an immigrant, too.
- [41:08]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, you clearly made an impression on him, that is for sure. And it's always wonderful to hear when people have a sense of humor, one of the best qualities a person indeed can have. Philip Polilla, thank you so much for joining us.
- [41:22]
Bianna Golodriga
Pleasure.
- [41:24]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, Pope Francis was known as a modernizer and reformer. He was also known for his outspoken approach on humanitarian issues like climate change, migration, war, and sexual violence. Violence. Nadia Murad, who won a Nobel Peace Prize for her effort to end the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war, posted this about Pope Francis saying, quote, in every meeting, he showed deep compassion and courage. He stood with survivors, spoke for the voiceless, and gave hope where there was little. I will always carry his kindness with me. In 2014, Christiane asked the Pope about his decision to call slavery and human trafficking a crime against humanity.
- [42:05]
Bianna Golodriga
Holy Father, you played a key role in establishing the Global Freedom Network. You were the first person to call modern slavery and human trafficking a crime against humanity. As you appeal for this scourge to be eradicated once and for all, tell us what exactly motivated your passion about this particular scourge.
- [42:26]
Ben Wiedemann
On behalf of all of us and.
- [42:28]
Christopher Lamb
Our beliefs and persuasions, we declare that human slavery in terms of prostitution, organs exploitation, and also human trafficking is a crime against humanity.
- [42:44]
Ben Wiedemann
The victims come from all walks of.
- [42:47]
Christopher Lamb
Life, but most times they are the poorest and the most vulnerable of our brothers and sisters. This takes place in hiding, behind closed doors, in private homes, in the streets, in the cars, in factories, in the fields, in fishing boats and in so many other places. This takes place both in cities and villages, villages of the richest and the poorest nations on earth. The worst is that this situation is unfortunately becoming worse and worse every day.
- [43:30]
Bianna Golodriga
I call upon all people in faith.
- [43:34]
Christopher Lamb
And their leaders and the governments and companies.
- [43:38]
Ben Wiedemann
I call all men and women of.
- [43:40]
Christopher Lamb
Goodwill to provide their strong support and join this movement against modern slavery in all its forms.
- [43:52]
Christiane Amanpour
And still to come after the break, what happens next? We'll hear from David Gibson from Fordham University's center on Religion and Culture. Now, Pope Francis was seen as a moral authority beyond his 1.4 billion Catholic flock worldwide. In a recent essay for the New York Times, religious scholar David Gibson wrote, the Age of Trump has its prophet, Pope Francis. So with his death, what happens now? David Gibson joins the program now from New York. David, welcome to the program. Good to see you on this day of all days. And I know you've spent time talking about the legacy of Pope Francis and the outsider role that he seemingly gladly took on very comfortably being the first pope from the Americas, the first pope to take on the name Saint Francis of Assisi, the first pope to address a joint session of Congress. So many differences from his predecessor, yet leaving such a lasting legacy. What are some of the most poignant points of his legacy, in your view?
- [45:06]
David Gibson
Well, I think it goes in two directions. One is inside the church, which Phil Polello was talking about. So, and he was such a warm, wonderful person inside the church. And for all the people who knew him, journalists who knew him usually are the outsiders themselves. But he was terrific that way. But as generous and inclusive and open and welcoming as he was, he also, he was very tough on his own cardinals, his own bishops. He would really remonstrate with them and really call them out, saying, we need to do things differently. He was elected in large part to reform the Roman Curia. You have to remember back in 2013 when Benedict XVI resigned almost under a cloud of scandal, the Vatican had all these financial and sexual scandals that were headlines in the papers. They wanted somebody to clean up the Roman Curia. So they elected Jorge Mario Bergoglio, a tough Argentine Jesuit, to do that. But he came in, he said, we can't just reform the curia. We have to reform the whole church. We have to reform ourselves. A very Ignatian message. He's a Jesuit. He was the first Jesuit to become elected pope as well. So there was that element. But then on the outside again, climate change, income inequality, protecting democracy. He was a champion for so many in the world who are looking to an alternative to the kind of Trumpist national populism that is sweeping the globe.
- [46:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. You told Chris John recently that he actually was the antithesis of the new Trump era. Can you go into more detail about why that is your belief?
- [46:53]
David Gibson
Well, he's really. He's been so outspoken, he believes that everybody needs to have a right, have a say. Again, the Catholic Church. This is a bit of an irony. You know, The Catholic Church 50, 80 years ago was not seen as a beacon of enlightenment, but now it really has been since the 1960s and the reforms, welcoming religious freedom, welcoming people, protecting human rights, human dignity for everyone. And that has been Pope Francis message that he's pushed out. He's also been a great champion of politics. He likes what he calls a better kind of politics getting in there, really. Horse trading. He likes to tell politicians, look, it's a kind of a martyrdom to be a politician. He said, you have to get your hands dirty. He said, but that's why you go to confession at the end of the day. And that's the kind of thing, you know, that's the kind of thing he needs. There needs to be horse trading. We need to work for the common good. That was his message, his thrust. That's the Catholic belief. Not tribalism, not individualism, not libertarianism. Working for the common good.
- [48:00]
Christiane Amanpour
And he was very outspoken about a need to end the ongoing wars that have been raging, whether that be in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan. Sadly, he did not live to see the day when any of these major conflicts would come to an end. He was also criticized by some who thought that he didn't condemn Russia's aggression and invasion strongly enough, or Vladimir Putin strongly enough. We know that he met with families of hostages from Israel on October 7, and also from families of civilians who had been killed in the war in Gaza. Talk about his legacy as attempting to make peace in so many wars.
- [48:42]
David Gibson
Yeah, and it was a complicated legacy, as you say, because, you know, we're in a zero sum world where someone has to win and someone has to lose. There can be no cohabitation, no kind of getting along. And that's what he was after. He wanted people to make peace among themselves. He wanted, you know, he didn't. He was. He said he would go dialogue with Putin at any time. He saw both sides of a conflict. He wanted peace. He wanted an end to the suffering. He wanted an end to war. Most people want to see one side win and the other side lose. And that's his message, which is calling on both sides to compromise was not terribly welcome. It's a different world than it was when I first went over to the Vatican in the 1980s. I was working at Vatican Radio. Pope John Paul II was Pope. Remember those days? We had an east and a West. You had the Berlin Wall, it was black and white. The Cold War. Well, Pope John Paul helped end that Cold War, helped bring down the Berlin Wall. But now we're in a whole different world of kind of tribal conflicts, conflicts within nations and among nations. It's much more complex. And in a way, Pope Francis was a prophet for that world. He talked about we have to be artisans, personal artisans of peace. Peace is handcrafted. We have to make it by making peace with our brother and sister. It's not about geopolitics, east versus west anymore. It's about internal conflict. And that's again, that gets to a change of heart.
- [50:19]
Christiane Amanpour
And now the question will be, can his successor, will his successor choose to carry on his legacy? That is something we will see in the weeks and months and years to come. David Gibson, thank you. Thank you so much for joining the program.
- [50:32]
David Gibson
Thank you.
- [50:34]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, so significant was Pope Francis desire to extend an arm to the world that not long after he became Pope, the Vatican invited award winning filmmaker Wim Winders to make a documentary about him. Known for films like Paris, Texas and Wings of Desire, Winders was given four afternoons of unprecedented access to the pontiff. The result? Pope Francis, a man of his word. Just after its premiere at the Cannes film festival in 2018, Wenders joined Christian to speak about creating his portrait of the Pope.
- [51:06]
Bianna Golodriga
This film that you've done has got.
- [51:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Great reviews in Cannes where you debuted it.
- [51:10]
Bianna Golodriga
But the real question is, how do you get such access to a Pope? I mean, we can't. For love nor money. Yep. I wonder myself now how that can possibly have happened. You see, it was not in my life's land. One day I got a letter by the Vatican. Would you be inclined to talk with us about a film involving the Pope? And that was amazing, Almost too good to be true. I truly admire his work and I think he's one of the great leaders.
- [51:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Of our world today.
- [51:43]
Bianna Golodriga
What specifically about him do you love the most? You see, I had nine years of Latin, so for once in my life it paid off because they introduced him before we saw him and in Latin, said he had chosen the name of Franciscus and I was flabbergasted because for me, St Francis was a hero of humanity and the only saint I could, so to speak, put a name on or a face on, because he stood for a few things that were amazing. He stood for a radical solidarity and identification with the outcast and the poor. He stood for a completely new relationship between man and nature. And I figured that was the most necessary thing today. St. Francis and the name of Francis stands. He'd be the first ecologist today. And St. Francis stands for a new effort of peace between the religions. So let's pick up on that, because obviously this Pope distinguished himself on that very environmental level you talk about in his encyclical, which was a tremendous document. And he's also spoken over and over again about refugees, about the poor, about all the proper values that he thinks we should hold. Here is a little clip of an interview that you did with him. We'll play it and then we'll talk about it on the other side. Del estar apprecionado por el dinero es lo concreto del trabajo Cotiviano.
- [53:31]
David Gibson
Lo concreto.
- [53:34]
Bianna Golodriga
I can even see you miming his words. You're so familiar with it as you were listening. I know every word by heart. Yeah. So what was the most surprising things that you heard from him? There are many surprising things because he didn't hesitate to answer any question. He didn't exclude any question. All the answers were spontaneous and immediate, some really at length and thorough. And he got very upset sometimes. My question about pedophilia, he got very angry, really angry. And you realized, if only he could, he would do so much more right now, right away. And you feel that in the conversation, there was a completely fearless man in front of me. And that is very rare to see that.
- [54:25]
Christiane Amanpour
But a lot more people will now be watching that film again upon the news of the Pope's passing. Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching. Goodbye. From New York.
- [54:51]
Bianna Golodriga
News fatigue.
- [54:52]
Christiane Amanpour
Have I Got News for you?
- [54:53]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Is the cure and also the disease. CNN's Comedy Quiz show is back, making sense of the mayhem and definitely adding to it.
- [55:01]
Bianna Golodriga
Have I Got News for you.
- [55:02]
Cardinal Blaise Cupich
Return Saturday, September 6th on CNN.