C (3:30)

Israel again, and they really are. It's. I said, Israel cannot fight the world.

A (3:36)

Bibi, they can't fight the world. And he understands that very well. So it's amazing the way it's all come together and it's a beautiful picture.

C (3:45)

I don't know if it could ever happen again.

A (3:48)

After two years of relentless agony, tens of thousands of Palestinians dead, Gaza turned into rubble and Israeli hostages captive. This is indeed a major step, but it is the first step and there are still many miles to walk like Hamas, disarmament, a full Israeli withdrawal and the future governance of Gaza. Nick Robertson has been following all of this from Cairo and he's joining me now with the latest. That's because, Nick, that's where all the delegations were, right, in Egypt to get this hammered out.

B (4:21)

They were. And in fact we understand that Hamas and the mediators were meeting today, continuing in Sharm El Sheikh on the Red Sea to hammer out more details involved in this very sort of partial part of President Trump's 20 point peace plan, the ceasefire for hostage release and Palestinian prisoner release. The Palestinian prisoner release was one of the details that was being discussed with negotiators. The Palestinians, Hamas want some high level political figures released amongst all those detainees. It's not clear that Israel is going to offer that, but at this moment that's a question that's going to Israel's Security Cabinet, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is chairing at the moment. The details on that we don't know. Another point that was still being discussed was the handover of all the hostages, living and deceased, because Hamas says they don't know where all the deceased are, where all the remains are. So these are not stumbling blocks per se that going to bring it all down. But it's indicative of just how quick the headline announcement was made about phase one, when even details of it weren't fully thrashed out. At the same time of so many other details that you just mentioned there. Another one might be the International Implementing Stability Force that comes in when they come in, the IDF moves back and out of Gaza, but in the interim, is it the IDF that is supposed to be involved in deciding? Or does the IDF pull back with Hamas still with their weapons and that falls to the international body? There are so many troubling, difficult, complex, sequential issues that we're yet to learn about.

A (6:11)

Yeah, I mean I hear you and one of the things that you were talking about earlier and that we saw flash on the wires was Hamas insisting on a formal declaration to the end of the war. And I don't know how that's going to come. And that's something that they've wanted all along.

D (6:28)

Right?

A (6:28)

Wanted, you know, in return for whatever they agree, an end to the war so that Netanyahu doesn't just start it up again. Is that something that is still under consideration? Could it be a stumbling block? We don't know.

B (6:44)

I mean, President Trump today said that when he comes to Egypt, he'll be signing a document. In the text of that document, is he putting his name to guarantees? Are the other mediators putting their names to some kind of formal guarantee that amounts to reinforcing the fact that Israel can't go back to war, which would underpin a formal declaration of an end of war. Not just the ceasefire is being discussed at the moment. And it's that formal declaration, as you say, that Hamas says is so important that allows them to give up the hostages, which all along have been their leverage, their big fear. Of course, if they give up the hostages, Israel could go back to war, and they want that international backing. So I think when we understand and see the details in the document that President Trump signs or get more details about the exact language, we'll understand better how much of a leap of faith Hamas is taking and how much pressure Israel is under to conform to what's expected of them. Hamas certainly briefing its audience and its public that they have taken these moves to end the killing, to end the starvation, to end the displacement, they say, over and above all other issues, which implies the issues of their own armament, their issues of their own political participation in a future administration in Gaza. It also sounds a little bit like Hamas saying, we're doing this for you, the people, not for ourselves. Again, how this plays out, we don't know. But Hamas clearly positioning itself there within its own audience, but they 100% are looking to the media, the United States, to keep Israel from going back to war. How that's formulated, we don't know.

A (8:34)

And, of course, the United States will expect all the Arab countries to keep Hamas aligned with its obligations under all of this. So, Nick, thank you very much indeed. And now, for many of the hostage families, this is, of course, a bittersweet moment, like for Sharon Lifshitz, whose parents were brutally kidnapped on October 7th. A few weeks later, her mother, Yocheved, was one of the first hostages returned alive in a deal. But however after more than a year of hoping for her father's safe return, the body of 83 year old Oded was brought home in the last ceasefire deal eight months ago, hailed by many as a man of peace. And Sharon joins me now here in London. So welcome, you know, back to our program. We've been talking to you on and off. You've become kind of a spokesperson for the hostage families, for those of us here in the uk. You live here mostly and you have, you know, shared your rollercoaster journey with us and helped us through. How do you feel today?

E (9:34)

I think first of all, we all been campaigning for two years and two days for the return of hostages. We all feel that until the last one return, we are not out of it. And so the prospect of all of them returning, all the live ones and hopefully all the remains of the ones that perished, this is the most important thing.

A (9:58)

You wrote an op ed, a column for the Guardian newspaper for the second anniversary and you said that, you know, for so many times we've had hope, we've been told, we've been promised sitting on the edge of our seats and we almost don't dare to hope that this could ever have come to pass. You know, what were you thinking when you heard the news overnight?

E (10:21)

I think it washes through your body, the wish for it, and I think when you hear it, you start feeling how much it sits on you. And so I can't say I'm happy, but I can feel it in my body that maybe soon I will see the mothers that have their sons alive coming back to them and then we will have hopefully 28 funerals. And it's not an easy world to wish for 28 funerals, but this is where we are heading. And then we would start feeling our loss. We haven't had the time to really feel our loss and to know that our loved ones, the 42 families whose loved ones arrived alive in Gaza and were murdered while in captivity, we never started the reckoning for that. There's a lot, a lot of steps along the way.

A (11:16)

Still you, I assume you've been in touch with your mother today. How is she feeling about this? Because her release was something really special in every aspect.

E (11:27)

My mum is very excited. My mum continually would say to anyone that she's in the tunnels as long as the other hostages are still in the tunnels. I think she can see the light at the end of this tunnel now. We have to get there. We haven't got there yet. It needs to happen. And I think then she would be able to give herself a moment.

A (11:52)

And you speak about the remains in the 28 funerals. Of course, your father did not survive. He was killed and he came back and you buried him. What. Have you talked to others like you who know that their family members have not survived?

E (12:10)

Yes, many. It's actually the main conversation I'm having today. It's a very tough moment. It's a very, very tough thing to know that there were decisions that were taken by the government of Israel that meant that our loved one did not survive. And all of us are united in the wish for all the loved one to return. But we are left with a very broken. My father was 83. He had a full life. How do you reconcile with your young child, with your teenager, with, you know, people who had a lifetime still ahead of them and lost his life?

A (12:54)

You know, you were amazing from the beginning, because even through that pain and through your parents and I suppose your education, as you grew up watching them, you were a peace activist. You were a peace nick, if I could say that you believed that across the border, there needed to be. Across the fence, there needed to be some kind of not just ceasefire, but reconciliation in order to be able to live as, you know, dignified people with sovereignty on both sides of the border. And I just wonder whether you still think that that's possible and whether your mom, you know, still holds onto that hope.

E (13:31)

I think we have to always separate between governments and individuals. I think we have to have faith in the possibility of a belief in something better. I'm very worried about the next stages and Hamas, because if Hamas keep hold of the Gaza Strip, then the future for our neighbor is not any better. Hamas brought them here, brought them to their knees, brought untold suffering. And I hope for them that the next stages will mean that they will be free to speak their mind, to have a change of leadership on both sides so that something better can come out of it.

A (14:18)

And do you. You know, there's been a lot of protest, a lot of, you know, trouble around protests during this whole two years. And you have said, and you wrote in this column that it's one thing to want peace for the Palestinian people, it's another thing to treat Hamas as some kind of. I can't remember the word you used, but some kind of benign resistance movement. Do you tell me about that? Because I know you've been incredibly offended by some of the conversations you've been hearing.

E (14:52)

Hamas came to my community, kibbutz Nir oz. They took 76 hostages and they destroyed most of the houses, and they killed 50, some of them in the most brutal way possible. Torture, unbelievable suffering. It's Hamas. I sit here and I hear people talk about this organization as if this is a decent way to behave as a human. And I cannot imagine that anybody would imagine that that is a good way forward. I have not been for my government, I've made clear, and so did the majority of Israelis. You know, the majority. There's hundreds of thousands on the street for two weeks, two years, every week, campaigning for the end of the war, the release of the hostages. So we are not all our government, we are not all Smutrich and Benqvir. And I think that if we cut through us in a different way, those of us who believe in the sanctity of life, those of us that believe in whatever crazy idea they believe in, then we have a chance of coming together and making a region that is fit for purpose, fit for life.

A (16:08)

You know, you said earlier in our conversation that you resent very deeply the fact that this could have been ended a while ago. And some of the negotiators, as you've seen, Gershon, Baskin and others, have been posting that this very deal, or very close to it, was available, you know, last. Just this past January. It was available last September, and your government decided that it wasn't. They didn't want to go for peace. So I wonder how this resolves if all the. Once you get your families back, once Israel is able to go through the mourning, and I don't know how long it'll take to reduce the trauma. But do you think that there'll be an internal reckoning?

E (16:51)

I very much hope so. I hope we're not too tired. I think that this government has used our plight, the plight of our people, for its own purposes. They're still in power after two years, after the worst atrocity happened on the. In Israel, and that is only because of the hostages. There's no doubt they wouldn't be in power if the hostages were returned in the beginning.

A (17:20)

And finally, you write again, very movingly about your mother's, I mean, viral moment. I hate to put it that way, but when she turned and said shalom to her Hamas captor as he, you know, let her go, it was an incredible moment. And yet some people decided that it was whatever they thought it was to you. It was an instinct to peace, I assume. Is that what you still think and she still believes?

E (17:47)

You know, I think a lot of what's happening now happening online when we are not there in Spirit in body. We don't see the humanity of each other. It makes it easier to hate. It makes it easier for the algorithm to push us one way or another. And my mom, at that moment, sat in front of a human being and they had an exchange. And she saw his humanity. He saw her. If we are not blinded by hate, we can see each other's humanity. That complicates things, but also makes it human.

A (18:20)

Such an important moment, and I wish the best for you. You gave me this. Your brother made it. Is that right? My brother?

E (18:27)

Omri.

A (18:28)

Yeah. The yellow cactus.

E (18:30)

You're in good company.

A (18:32)

Yeah. Yeah, I've been wearing it. Thank you.

E (18:35)

Thank you so much.

A (18:36)

This is hopefully, hopefully, a good day for you all. And hopefully it will lead to the release of everybody and hopefully it will lead to peace. The world is now implicated and involved, and the President of the United States has put all his might behind this. And hopefully he can continue to make it a proper ending.

E (18:55)

I think it's the first stage and we might must push towards the next stages.

A (19:00)

Let's hope. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you for everything. So, as we've mentioned, after two years of brutal war and at least 67,000 people killed, those in Gaza are breathing a sigh of relief as well. But it's important to note that the guns have not stopped firing yet. And today Israeli tanks were seen opening up on civilians moving north. But the IDF says it's firing, quote, smoke bombs to keep people away from their forces. So let's bring in west bank policy lead for Oxfam, Bushra Khalidi, who joins me from Ramallah, and Noor Al Aqsa, communic officer for msf Doctors Without Borders, who joins me from Gaza on the phone. Noor, I just want to ask you first, how are you feeling? What is the, you know, sentiment amongst people there? It's really difficult to get communications with Gaza today. So thanks for being with us on the phone.

C (19:56)

Thank you for having me. Honestly, the situation is still very vague. Anok Palestinian Bengal. Everyone still very hesitant to even celebrate the ceasefire. This has been very clear with people's reactions across the Strip today. Some people have celebrated a bit, but for the majority, it is still. Everyone is still questioning whether it's happening or not. I mean, it does bring a moment of relief from exhaustion, but everyone is doubting because of the so many experiences before we've had with the different negotiations, the breaking of the ceasefire, the hesitation of all the people. Gazelle had their share of trust issues and happy news.

A (20:58)

Noor, can I ask you whether you have. I mean, is it as heavy firing and heavy military activity as it has been, do you sense a lessening at all?

C (21:13)

Well, I was just talking to my colleagues how it's been calm today, but just 20 minutes ago I heard the bomb coming down near us. So it's still unclear and that's what is causing this confusion. I mean, we've been losing so many lives. I mean, an average of about 70 people getting killed every day by Israeli forces. With what we were seeing in the last period just a couple of days ago, we've lost two of our colleagues who were physiotherapists. And it's just these immense losses that we've been enduring for so long have affected our reaction to this ceasefire currently that all of us have been feeling nothing but numbness, doubting whether it's going to last or not.

A (22:13)

Yes. And Noor, you have obviously with msf, you're involved in taking care of those who've been wounded or are sick. And we know how much of the medical infrastructure has been reduced to rubble and how many, many wounded have come through the doors of all the various hospitals and care centres that can cope right now. So are you able to even vaguely tell us what you might need once humanitarian aid still starts to flow again?

C (22:46)

I can.

A (22:51)

Are you there, Noor? So, as I said, it's very, very difficult to reach people in Gaza. There's very spotty communications today of all days. So let's turn to Bushra in Ramallah. She's lead there for Oxfam. Bushra, thank you very much for being with us. I just want to ask you the same question that I was asking Noor. I don't know whether you know, but I know that there's connection between aid organizations in the west bank and in Gaza. Can you imagine what might be needed in the immediate future? Because one of the features, as you know, is this starvation is a siege. Everything from water to electricity, food, medicine has not been able to get in in any meaningful way.

F (23:39)

Absolutely. Thank you, Christiane, for having me. I mean, what's needed right now is full unrestricted humanitarian access. No more is really restrictions on the entry of aid. No more siege. Crossings needs to be fully open. We don't need trickles of aid. We need a massive scale up that meets the needs of 2 million people. We need commercial goods to enter Gaza. We need the economy to be revived. We need to see restaurants, cafes, shops reopen. People in Gaza have endured unimaginable suffering for the last two months. Relentless bombardment forced Displacement, as you said it, hunger. We need safe routes, routes. We need fuel for the APE convoys, fuel for hospitals, fuel for water systems and we need, like I said, commercial goods to flow freely again. You know, right now, for example, we were talking yesterday, Gaza needs soap. We need trucks and trucks of soap in Gaza because people are running out of soap, let alone running out of, you know, basic essentials. So I hope that this means full, fully open crossings and no more restrictions on what we can get into Gaza.

A (24:44)

I want to ask you, were you surprised or is it totally natural? Nor was, you know, she's not jumping up and down and you know, singing and shouting. She's very concerned, very stressed, very worried that this might not last. Do you get that?

F (25:04)

I mean, yeah, of course, you know, I'm in the west bank. We're all holding our breaths. I just spoke to my brother in law, I've got all my in laws in Gaza. He said, you know, nobody can build believe it, we don't trust it yet. We can still hear the sound of bombs and Israeli planes and drones above Gaza. So for us it's yet not real. But of course, you know, I mean from, from my perspective here in the west bank and as a humanitarian worker and having worked on this response for two years, we absolutely welcome the ceasefire, the release of the hostages, but the unlawfully detained prisoners, the Palestinian prisoners as well. So it has to be, this has to be the start of a real, real effort to restore Palestinian lives, you know, restore their rights and end this absolutely horrific horri assault on Gaza.

A (25:49)

Bourj Khalid, can I ask you also you have said that Gaza is quote, a petri dish of disease. And I read something in our introduction which said that the Israelis or the agreement says that humanitarian aid, that is food, medicine, water, basics will start flowing commensurate with previous ceasefires. Is that enough?

F (26:15)

Well, right now, yes, Gaza is a petri dish of disease. You know, when you have 2 million people that are displaced that are crammed into these overcrowded shelters with no infrastructure, no clean water, no sanitation, we're hearing of, you know, children defecating openly in Gaza. We're children hurrying of children looking for scraps of food in the bins in Gaza that was never unheard of in Gaza before. There were no homeless people in Gaza before the 7th of October. So yeah, sure we can talk about the number of hundreds of trucks, but we need to restore dignity. We need to restore, you know, repair materials. People need to be able to return to their homes or what is left of their Homes and at least start preparing, start preparing basic water infrastructure. So it's not just about, you know, throwing box of flour and, you know, we're happy with that. No, it needs a full holistic response that responds to a famine. Right. Like we're responding to a famine. It's not a normal humanitarian response. So 600 trucks, thousands of trucks, whatever is needed to restore some sort of basic life in Gaza. I mean, please, you know, I've lived this very personally for the last two years. It is truly enough. And so people are allowed to have soap at least, you know, I mean, soap, baby formula, the basics.

A (27:27)

Right. Bushra Khalidi, thank you. From Oxfam, based in the west bank there. I just want to go back to Noor. I think we can still talk to her in Gaza. Noor, you know, just a final thought for you for this moment. You've been working, walking around, you've been in Gaza for all this time. Is there anything that can be rebuilt? How bad is it? Because we can't see on a big level, but it looks pretty obliterated to us.

C (27:57)

Yeah, unfortunately, what we keep saying is that this genocide or this ceasefire comes after two years genocide and two years of indiscriminate mass killing and destruction to every aspect of life, whether it's infrastructure, health facilities, homes. We've seen the destruction of literally every aspect of life. And for this to be restored, we need to think about the basics, access to humanitarian assistance. While it must not be dependent on a peace agreement, unfortunately it should be like followed by an urgent and a massive scale up of humanitarian aid to address these overwhelming needs. Whether it's medical needs, whether it's psychological needs, whether it's material needs. I mean, we're talking about every single aspect. But as a medical organization we've supported where patients are literally on the floor because there's no bed, the doctors and the nurses are changing the dressing for patients who are literally laying on the floor, there's no room. We're working in hospitals and field hospitals that have reached more than 150 bed capacity or like bed occupancy rate, which is almost more than two people per bed in a hospital. It's catastrophic to say the least. With not enough of anything, not enough of supplies, not enough of medications, not enough human resources.

A (29:38)

We hope. Noor, thank you very much. Noor Al Sakha, thank you for telling us what's going on there. Again, we really, really hope that this is the beginning of a new day. So thank you for being with us and we'll have More on this developing story after the I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

B (30:06)

I'm actually getting very specific suggestions on things we can fix at the FDA.

G (30:10)

Dr. Marty Makary earlier this year he.

A (30:13)

Stepped into the role of FDA commissioner.

B (30:16)

And there's no shortage of things that are broken to fix at the fda.

A (30:19)

What does he want to reform and how does he see the FDA's role at a time when science, politics and public health are more entangled than ever before?

G (30:29)

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever.

A (30:32)

You get your podcasts now. Whether this Gaza ceasefire plan makes it from phase one to final agreement is all about the details. And my next guests know just how much work it takes to see this all through to the final phase. Oliver McTernan is a former Catholic priest turned hostage negotiator. He spent decades working on conflict resolution in the Middle East. Hussein Ara also has a long history of involvement in Israeli Palestinian negotiations and his latest book is Tomorrow is Life, Death and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine. And Yossi Bailin served as Israel's Justice Minister. He was also involved in negotiating the Oslo Accord. So welcome everybody. Welcome to the program. If I could go to you, Yossi, first, because you're there in Israel and the government is having its meeting as we speak to sign off on this. What do you feel now? Is this a legitimate, genuine, you know, u. S brokered chance for a permanent change in the situation, obviously to bring back the hostages and surge in humanitarian aid?

D (31:48)

Well, it is a great day for all of us. We almost did not believe that this day would come. And yes, we were awakened in the middle of the night and we cried. Does it bring us to permanent agreement between us and the Palestinians? I don't think so. The way is long because we were negotiating true mediators with Hamas, but unlike the negotiations in Oslo and many other kind of negotiations, we did not have the same aim. I mean, we don't want to see Hamas in Gaza, Hamas leadership in Gaza, they should not rule it while they intend to remain there and are not even ready to put their weapons aside. So I think that the main issue is about the morning after, which has not come yet. And this morning we'll have to deal with the negotiations on longer range, which means between the government of Israel and the PLO or the legitimate daughter of the plo, which is the Palestinian Authority. That will not be simple, will not be possible with the current government in Israel. So we have a long way to go.

A (33:22)

Okay, so let me turn to, you know, conflict resolution expert Oliver McTernnan here. So if it's not possible with the current government of Israel, if it's not possible with Hamas in its current incarnation, where do you see this going? I mean, obviously today is wonderful for the, for the immediate needs and the ceasefire. Stop the killing, return the hostages. You know, it's meant to happen in 72 hours, but beyond that, you've spent a lot of time between two sides.

G (33:52)

Well, first of all, we're all delighted where we are today. The trouble is how we got there and we got there through, I would say, a unilateral ultimatum. Now, it hopefully will deliver the hostages for their sake and their families home. It hopefully will relieve the immense suffering of the people of Gaza. 2.3 million, maybe. Still. Now, that said, I would agree then with the Aussie, where do we go from there? And I think the mere fact that it was a unilateral ultimatum that brought them to the table, there's no way it can be the pathway forward. So I think we shouldn't be overenthusiastic.

A (34:39)

So what are you saying? You're saying that President Trump knocked heads together and is that the unilateral ultimatum?

G (34:46)

Several months ago, the last time we spoke, I said there was one person, Donald Trump, who could actually deliver what he has done. But the question is whether he has the political and moral courage to take the next step.

A (34:59)

Okay, all right, so that's the question, and that's a fair question, whether they'll be follow through. And that's always the issue, isn't it? It's always the issue. But to the issue of Hamas, because you've dealt with them a lot, the political side, Dr. Ahmed Youssef, who I in fact met with you, former adviser to the assassinated leader Ismail Haniyeh, has written, factions must evolve. He means Palestinian factions must evolve into political parties that compete under pluralistic norms rather than cling to resistant movement logic. Only then can Palestinian politics align with principles of representation, accountability, and collective purpose. That's quite far leaning right. I mean, he's basically saying that we shouldn't continue in this resistance mode.

G (35:45)

And I think there were many in Hamas who realized that long before October 7th. In fact, in August 2023, we had a meeting in Khan Yunis with all of the parties. There were Hamas there, Islamic Jihad, New fata, Al Fatah, and what people were recognizing. The time had come that Hamas should take a step back. They were hoping to have municipal elections in Gaza in November, and they would go on a joint manifesto. So it didn't matter who won the election that would work together to implement this manifesto. And it was, I thought, a moment of great hope. And I think that is possible. It is possible to revive that. And I think it is the only way forward.

A (36:38)

And Hussein Ara, who has worked, you know, a lot on this, on this issue, and you've just written a book with Rob Malley, the former US Negotiator, we quoted the name of the book. What do you think and what do you see as the chinks of light and the potential stumbling blocks right now?

H (36:59)

I think it's a very important day. I think it is a breakthrough, but it is a ceasefire. It's not a roadmap to a peace, a permanent peace between the two peoples, between Israel and the Palestinians. But still, there is a lot in it for the Palestinians that they didn't have have before. One is the end of the slaughter. Second is the death of the idea of deporting the Palestinians from Gaza. The resume resuming humanitarian aid, giving up the idea of annexing the west bank, giving up the idea, the crazy idea of total victory. All these, I think, are measurable and are important returns from Trump's attempt in this plan. But where do you go from here? Every time there is a breakdown between Israel and Gaza, every time there's violence, the world comes around. You have meetings in Sharm El Sheikh. Usually you get the president of France, the prime minister of Britain, American representatives, and they all promise all kind of things not dissimilar to what's being promised now. And it never happened. But there's a difference now. The difference now is that this is not an agreement between Hamas and Israel. This is not an agreement between President Trump and Hamas and Israel. Effectively, it is an agreement between President Trump and the countries of Turkey and Qatar. Turkey and Qatar are representing Hamas. Hamas will accept anything that Turkey and Qatar will ask her to accept. And therefore, Hamas no longer seeks a bilateral guarantee from the United States that the war will not be resumed. It is depending on the relation between President Trump and President Erdo Khan and the Emir of Qatar that a war will not be resumed and that Hamas, what is agreed with Hamas, will be honored. So in that sense, it's new. It's new. And it is more powerful than what happened before, because we never had things.

A (39:22)

Yeah, go ahead. You never had things like that. Guaranteed.

H (39:26)

We never had the important countries that the United States has an investment in and has a special kind of relationship with, taking such an active role. Okay, so, Yossi, there's a big general talk.

A (39:41)

Yeah, let me just Ask Yossi this, because as a former Israeli negotiator, do you think that there will be a declaration of the end of war? And do you think that this is slightly different and unique because of the big powers or the powers, the regional powers, powers who've come in under, you know, Trump, getting them all together, whether it's Israel, whether it's the Arab powers, whether it's Turkey.

D (40:08)

Yeah. First of all, I agree this is the new situation. Things happened and things were changed in the Middle East. But the biggest and most important variable is the presence of the American president and the way he dealt with things. I don't always like his behavior, I must admit, between us, but what he did here was a tough step which worked in order to achieve the phase one of the plan. I think that in order to get to the other chapters and especially to decide what is going to happen on the ground, I mean, who will really replace Hamas, if it will be replaced? Because they are not ready to be replaced so soon. So this is a huge work, and I'm glad that Trump is coming to the region. And I hope that it is not only a visit, but it is a working visit in order to deal with the second step. This is the most important thing right now, 100%.

A (41:19)

I hear you.

D (41:20)

I'm really sorry, by the way, when we are speaking about the steps which were taken today and the release of prisoners that Israel refused to free, Marwan Barghouti, I think that it was one of the big mistakes of Israel for the short run. Yeah, he was a terrorist. I mean, I knew him very well. He supported peace. And at certain moment in 2000, in May 2000, he changed his mind because of his competition with Hamas. I will not personally forgive him for that. But he is the most popular Palestinian right now, and he is the hope of those who want to have an agreement. At the end of the day, only people who don't want an agreement with the Palestinians would keep him in prison. Right now.

A (42:14)

That is, that is, that is really interesting. Only people who don't want an agreement with the Palestinians, who don't want a Palestinian state, would keep him in prison, says former negotiator Yossi Bailin. That's really interesting. Cause this has been a stumbling block for a long time, the disarmament process. You've worked with all sorts of conflict resolution, including in Northern Ireland, and you've taken, you know, members of this, this, this conflict around as well. After the Good Friday peace accord, it did take years to disarm, to actually disarm the ira. Right. It's not something that's going to happen in a week or a day or a month.

G (42:51)

Well, there's still groups in Northern Ireland that are not disarmed, but the political life goes on. I think Yossi raised the crucial question, who will replace Hamas? Now what worries me about this current proposal on the table is that it reflects Too much the 2003 plan after the fall of Saddam, the debartification, all of those things. You see it there outside government coming in. It was the government ruling Iraq. Now the consequences of that we know only too well. It gave rise to isis. And I fear we shouldn't underestimate that in Gaza. Second point about that plan, it reflects nothing on international law and in particular the human right, the basic human right of Palestinians to have their own state, to have real agency, not a state on paper, and to be able to determine their own future. Now I think when I said does President Trump have the political and moral courage to take the next step, it's simply end of occupation. Israel will only have the security it desires and has a right to. When the international community have the courage to say enough occupation has to end, we have to have a real Palestinian state.

A (44:19)

Oliver McTurnan, Yossi Bailyn and Hossein Ara. I wish we could carry on. It's really fascinating with all your expertise and perspectives, another day. President Trump has been speaking about the deal at a cabinet meeting. Here's what he's just said.

G (44:33)

They've agreed to things and I think it's going to move along pretty well.

A (44:39)

But what is phase two? When does it begin?

G (44:41)

I'm not going to talk about that because you sort of know what phase two is. But we will, there will be disarming, there will be pullbacks, there will be a lot of things that are happening. You know, I gave you a whole List of 22 different things that will have will take place. And I think it will take place and I think you're going to end up with peace and in the Middle East.

A (45:00)

We'll be right back after this short break. French President Emmanuel Macron has played a central role in Middle east diplomacy. His work with Saudi Arabia to rally global Support for a two state solution helps shape critical aspects of Donald Trump's 20 point peace plan. Sylvie Berman was France's ambassador to the UK To Russia and to China. And she's joining us now from Paris. Ambassador, welcome to the program. And there are announcements of meetings in Paris to try to fill in the details and help construct the so called Day after the two state issue, where do you stand on this and what do you think Europe can do, particularly France?

I (45:51)

Well, I think Europe can do a lot of things and could contribute to the stabilization process with some peace forces. We don't know if it's going to be UN Peace forces or others. Obviously Europe will contribute also to the reconstruction of Gaza and it's better to work together. I know that Donald Trump is planning to establish a kind of peace board. And so while Europeans would like to be part of it.

A (46:25)

Let's just talk about what you said, a UN peacekeeping force. I mean, one assumes that Israel would not accept that. They don't believe the UN is an honest broker when it comes to them. And there has been talk about maybe a joint Arab peacekeeping force into Aliyah. What do you think would be the best?

I (46:47)

Well, it could be an Arab peace keeping force. I think that would be good. But there's also the participation of the possibility of participation of other countries, if not UN mission. It could be a kind of coalition of the willing. I think a lot of things are possible.

A (47:06)

And given your experience obviously as a French ambassador, do you believe that Macron's, you know, serious and diligent work to getting this conference along with Saudi Arabia, the whole idea of sort of supercharging Palestinian statehood and then President Trump at the same UN General assembly meeting with all the Arab leaders and hearing from them as well. How much of a role do you think Macron's plan played in this moment now?

I (47:42)

Well, it's difficult to say because I think Donald Trump had already a plan. But I think if you want to have a future for Palestine and for the security of Israel as well, you need a two state solution. Maybe. Well, it's opposed for the time being by the Israelis, but in the future, absolutely necessary. And the French president has worked a lot with all Arab countries. Well, of course, Donald Trump as well. But it could be complementary.

A (48:15)

Let me ask you about the internal chaos in your country and obviously it implicates Macron and his leadership, at least at home. Where do you think that's going to lead? And do you think if he gets into more domestic political trouble, it will compromise his role on the international stage, whether it's over this, whether it's over support for Ukraine and those big issues?

I (48:40)

Well, I think obviously it weakens the image of France, but he has still responsibilities as the international affairs are concerned, so he can still play a role. But anyway, it should appoint a new prime minister and try to find a solution by the end of the year because it's necessary to adopt the budget.

A (49:07)

And do you think it's possible, do you think there will be a compromise because the latest prime minister resigned after less than a month because he couldn't get anybody to agree?

I (49:19)

Yeah, they are not all the parties are not in a compromise mood because in fact they're just looking at the next presidential election in 2027 and that they're not really interested by the situation of the country. But the outgoing prime minister had contacts with all of them those last two days and apparently he said that there is an agreement while to avoid dissolution and also to find an agreement on the budget. It doesn't mean that we it's going to be a coalition government, but he thinks there's a way towards compromise on the budgetary issue.

A (50:00)

Okay, and if that happens, what does that mean for the far right party of Marine Le Pen? Because they're ahead in the polls and clearly Macron doesn't want to allow, you know, them to take over.

I (50:14)

No, absolutely. And in fact, the party, the national rally, they want dissolution because, of course, the polls are in their favor, but it's not what other parties want.

A (50:33)

Interesting. And one very brief. We've got 30 seconds. You know, Russia, how do you think Putin will look at what's going on in the Middle east right now? Will it encourage him to negotiate and enter his war?

I (50:47)

Probably not. Now I think he's not ready to put an end to this war because he thinks that he can still win. But I'm pretty sure that Donald Trump, after the success in Gaza, if there's a lot of things to do, he will come back to the situation in Ukraine and he will continue. He might be erratic, but again, he has consistency of ideas.

A (51:15)

Really interesting. Thank you, Ambassador Berman, for joining us. And finally, a poem about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the deep loss among Israeli hostage families. The author, 95 year old Theodore Mehran, has lived nothing short of a remarkable life. After surviving the Holocaust as a child, he went on to become president of the war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. His memoir is set to release in January 2020. Now you saw that I pointed out what Sharon Lifshitz had given me. This yellow cactus for the hostages in Israel. Mehran sent me this poem just hours before the ceasefire deal was announced. And he calls it a Requiem for Gaza's Children. Here's an extract. The barbarity of October 7th. God saw it from heaven, but he did not stop the horrors, leaving them to cruel warriors. Gaza bombed out, collapsed, burning houses, black robed mothers crying to heavens for the loss of their progeny, leavens left unanswered by Almighty God. How could he let it happen on his watch? Emaciated hostages clinging to life in dark tunnels, desperate strife praying for light and family's embrace and safe return to the grace. Fear, despair and pain were our prayers in vain. Dark clouds sending a dark omen for suffering and trauma so common As a young man, Ted Mehron was legal advisor to the Israeli Foreign ministry after the Six Day War in 1967, and he warned the government of the day that Israel's occupation of the west bank would not be viewed as legal under international law. He was ignored and the rest is history. That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

G (53:11)

Foreign.

F (53:17)

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, you may have noticed that tech platforms are increasingly trying to figure out how old you are. What's the deal with that? And should you be worried about handing over your information to these platforms to verify your age? The Internet we have right now is mostly anonymous. When we talk about age verification, it completely destroys the idea of online anonymity. Data is something that you can sell, it is something that you can exchange. It is a commodity nowadays. And so when we're thinking about privacy, your data is something that you want to hold as close to your chest as possible. Listen to CNN's Terms of Service with me, Claire Duffy. Wherever you get your podcasts.